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Yyp (talk) 21:43, March 10, 2016 (UTC)

Translation

Hello Im Salubri an admin here on the site and i wanted to talk to you about the translations. I have some concerns about the conclusions. The idea that we have always gone by here is accurate, a touch poetic with context but simply done. So I know your experienced in translation, but new to the site. The biggest issue I have is with the translation for "Kannonbiraki Benihime Aratame" as "Inquisition and Reform of the Crimson Princess' Dissection". Now i see the explanations but you also say in this instance "Inquisition" is meant but it should mean "reform" usually. So you use both which dont really make sense next to each other. Commonly here on the site we have come across the instance of a translation that has multiple meanings and we pick one that makes the most sense and never both because we can. So if in this instance its supposed to be "inquisition" that should be the only one used. Then there is the issue of removing Avalokiteśvara. You continue to use "Double Doors" in reference to it but without context it would seem to anyone else as "two doors". Hence It would be no issue for how long the translation is as long as it was correct thats why we can get behind "Inquisition of the Crimson Princess' Dissection at the Doors of Avalokiteśvara" as opposed to something without context or overcomplicated.--Salubri (Chat) 13:32,3/15/2016 

That makes sense, but then "Inquisition of the Crimson Princess' Dissection at the Doors of Avalokiteśvara" can't be used because that's translating Kannonbiraki three times. All three meanings of Kannonbiraki are important, and both meanings of Aratame are important.

If there can't be multiple translations but the reference to Avalokiteśvara has to remain (despite the word having nothing to do with Avalokiteśvara in everyday use), it'd have to be "Inquisition of the Crimson Princess Opened by Avalokiteśvara", which IMO is meaningless because it's a contextual word where "door" is implied after "Kannonbiraki" (i.e. the door opened by Avalokiteśvara), which doesn't exist in English.

I really wouldn't usually overtranslate words like this. The only time I would is for words that have multiple meanings, and every single meaning is important for the English translation and there isn't an English word that captures the same meaning. It's worth noting that this issue is only ever really found in nominalised compound verbs, which Kannonbiraki is. Double or even triple translation is necessary to capture the proper meaning of the word in English, because every single one of them can be both an adjective and a noun, and sometimes the meaning of each of those is very different but entirely connected. It only ever applies to real words, so the only other example we have is Nozarashi (Weather-beaten Skeleton Exposed in a Field -- triple translation).

If the issue really is just with "Aratame", then I'd suggest "modification" because it carries undertones of careful inspection and alteration. Modification of the Crimson Princess' Dissection at the Doors of Avalokiteśvara.--Andygoesrawr (talk) 21:58, March 15, 2016 (UTC)

Well you pointed out that Avalokiteśvara is a contextual word where "door" is implied after "Kannonbiraki" (i.e. the door opened by Avalokiteśvara), which doesn't exist in English. If the meaning is to lead back to Avalokiteśvara then its usage is fine regardless if its meaning cant be properly translated into english hence why i was saying simply use Avalokiteśvara with a link. Thats commonly how we deal with those types of situations. You said that Kannonbiraki would be "the door opened by Avalokiteśvara". Thats not bad, im not sure i get the whole details of how you translated this, you said all meanings were important but all meanings arent necessarily the same so thats why i said pick which makes sense instead of mixing them all together. We usually go by what the nature of whats being talked about. Now you said there are multiple meanings what are they in total and what combinations would work given what we have been talking about? Hopefully you get my points so far.--Salubri (Chat) 22:20,3/15/2016 

The different meanings of Kannonbiraki (in order of directness of translation) are:

1. "Opened by Avalokiteśvara". Contextually, this refers to the doors on the shrines to Avalokiteśvara, which are almost always double doors.

2. "Double Doors". This is an extension of sense 1, and is used in everyday Japanese with no connection to Avalokiteśvara.

3. "Butterfly Fillet". This is actually the single most common use of the word, and is an extension of sense 2, referring to the fact that the meat is sliced and pulled apart, resembling double doors opening outwards.

Based on what we've seen of the Bankai, it's very obvious that sense 3 is what Kubo is going for. However, Benihime also pretty clearly resembles Guanyin (the Chinese, female Avalokiteśvara), and her arms are the same as Senjumaru, whose name references Senjukannon, the most common Japanese representation of Avalokiteśvara. So we need to capture sense 1 and sense 3 in a translation, which is impossible without including sense 2 in order to make the connection between them.

So I landed on "Dissection at the Doors of Avalokiteśvara", as that captures all three senses and combines them in a way that works in English without being too ambitious. If we had a word in English that meant "to open outwards" then it would be a whole lot easier to translate, but the best we have is "burst" and "expel" which both these days have a more violent connotation that isn't appropriate.--Andygoesrawr (talk) 23:30, March 15, 2016 (UTC)

Ok that works so what about the first part of the bankai name?--Salubri (Chat) 03:40,3/16/2016 
Well, as I said normally it carries the meaning of something being changed, but can also mean an inquisition. Both meanings are definitely intended after seeing the Bankai's ability, which is why I went with "Inquisition and Reform" (both words chosen to create a legal and/or religious feeling). But since the etymology of Aratame is far more towards the meaning of "changing" (all old -mu verbs are about becoming a certain way, which would make the meaning of "inspection" a weird backwards formation), I'd go with a word that means to change something with an undertone of close inspection, which is how I landed on "Modification".--Andygoesrawr (talk) 04:04, March 16, 2016 (UTC)

Awesome I think that works perfectly, thanks for bearing with me on that, i dont want it to be a hassle, the work is much appreciated.--Salubri (Chat) 16:09,3/17/2016 

Translation Corner - Shinji Query

Hi Andy, I'm Yyp, one of the admins here. I was wondering if you're still around and able to answer a translation question. Specifically, this one about Shinji the kendo character from episode 133. A user has found the kanji for his family name and we would like to clarify the correct way to romanise his name. Regards, ~~Ууp <talk> 11:53, September 12, 2016 (UTC)

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