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  • SunXia
    SunXia closed this thread because:
    the purpose of this thread has been fulfilled and then some.
    23:59, May 31, 2019

    So, I don't want to tattle or escalate the conflict anymore than it should, but I need to say this because I have a bit of a problem with it myself. See, as I discovered people have been starting a new Bleach wiki. Now, I don't have any problems with it per se. It's their right and so far it doesn't look half bad.

    No, my main problem is that they apparently accuse this wiki of stealing content and info from them. Wether it's true or not, I honestly don't know. But the things is that, since they focus greatly on novel stuff, I'm afraid they may start accusing me of stealing from them when I'm just adding or correcting some of the myriad things of the novels.

    ...Look, my opinions on the whole matter are not that valid (even though I think "starting my own" is kinda childish, but whatever). But I have to admit some of the pages they make are interesting and make me see my work in a new light. Such as things I skipped, should change, or should elaborate upon. But now I really am afraid of updating my work in case the situation escalates even more. So I honestly don't really know how to continue from here.

    So yeah, just wanted to get that off of my chest.

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    • Alright, I think I should probably weigh in here.

      The mod team is well aware of this second (well, technically third or fourth) Bleach wiki's existence, and as of today we're also learned on these theft accusations. I and the team have never taken any of their content and claimed it as our own, though the reverse is not true, but if they want to keep believing and claiming that, they're more than free to howl into the wind, and they're also free to keep working on this thing till the cows come home.

      In regards to your work, if there is something on there that you genuinely think is worth adding or incorporating into your light novel work, by all means do so - perhaps credit whoever came up with the idea in the edit summary if you'd like, but I wouldn't worry about people coming after you for "theft". Those claims are pretty much exclusively aimed at me right now, since I'm a big mean bully who won't roll over and lap at their feet in my work on this wiki.

      tl;dr don't worry about them, keep doing what you do my man

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    • Timjer wrote: So, I don't want to tattle or escalate the conflict anymore than it should, but I need to say this because I have a bit of a problem with it myself.

      I am so sorry you got dragged into this dude I really am.

      Timjer wrote: Now, I don't have any problems with it per se. It's their right and so far it doesn't look half bad.

      I have been encouraging them to do it for a while. And it doesn't look bad but they borrowed work that was already done like our templates and such. Which is fine they've credited us. They can do what they want.


      Timjer wrote: No, my main problem is that they apparently accuse this wiki of stealing content and info from them. Wether it's true or not, I honestly don't know.

      It most certainly is not. Xilly has access to manga from kind users on this site and from his own research. He and I have put a lot of money into Bleach content for this wiki. The only thing that has happened is I noticed a blog there with constructive criticism that was never brought up here and we double check and re-affirmed where we were. We have never pretend our Wiki is perfect and have always said its a work in progress. Its best to ignore them, they're upset.


      Timjer wrote: But the things is that, since they focus greatly on novel stuff, I'm afraid they may start accusing me of stealing from them when I'm just adding or correcting some of the myriad things of the novels.

      I wasn't going to, but since this concerns you I will drop a line to staff, not to get them banned or make unfounded accusations but just to request that they ask them to lay off. You should never be afraid to edit here for fear of harassment or goading. Not saying anyone has harassed you but its affecting you and its not fair.

      Timjer wrote: Look, my opinions on the whole matter are not that valid (even though I think "starting my own" is kinda childish, but whatever). But I have to admit some of the pages they make are interesting and make me see my work in a new light. Such as things I skipped, should change, or should elaborate upon. But now I really am afraid of updating my work in case the situation escalates even more. So I honestly don't really know how to continue from here.

      Its always good to see where we can improve. Don't fear that. They borrow our templates so don't feel guilty if you see something done over there that might inspire you. And do not let it hold you back. Wikis are for sharing knowledge after all. And Timjer, buddy, you have shown great dedication to helping our Wiki improve without resorting to insults or disparaging remarks, the opinion of a person like that is always valued here.

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    • Thanks for the support, you guys. I'll continue my work, no worries, though I'll do as Xil suggested, credit them in the edit descriptions when I was inspired by them. But for now, I'm not far enough into my summary to make any drastic changes yet.

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    • Timjer wrote: Thanks for the support, you guys. I'll continue my work, no worries, though I'll do as Xil suggested, credit them in the edit descriptions when I was inspired by them. But for now, I'm not far enough into my summary to make any drastic changes yet.

      Crediting people is only required if you have directly copied and pasted stuff they have done. You can always rewrite something you see into your own words and nothing is plagiarised or stolen.

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    • Don't even worry about them accusing us of stealing content. No matter what they or the Reddit community they've manipulated to their cause say, we've never once stolen content from them. Unfortunately, the opposite can't be said.

      Here's an image Xil uploaded yesterday: https://bleach.fandom.com/wiki/File:Vol38Ulquiorra_profile.png

      And here's an image uploaded onto the other wiki two hours later: https://bleachmedia.fandom.com/wiki/File:Ulquiorra_Cifer.png

      Identical in every way. What the onlooker crowd doesn't seem to realize is that the people behind this new Wiki have had an aggressive and toxic relationship with our Wiki for nearly a decade. Despite their claims to the contrary, this is nothing more than bitter retaliation for not getting their way. You'd be hard pressed to find a comment from them here that wasn't aggressive or insulting towards our mods, the series or Kubo himself. If they want to make their own Wiki, that's within their right. But it's not for nearly as pure reasons as they claim.

      As far as we're concerned with you, your contributions here are very much appreciated. We value people like you that are willing to work and learn, without devolving into petty insults.

      My dearly departed dad had a saying he used to live by, "Within every adversity lies the seed of an equal or greater benefit." This might be a difficult time for us here, but beneath all the sludge being heaved our way there's something to be gained. So don't be afraid of the opinions of people who don't follow their own mantras. Just do the best you can. It's all we ask for.

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    • FutureEeveeKing13 wrote: My dearly departed dad had a saying he used to live by, "Within every adversity lies the seed of an equal or greater benefit." This might be a difficult time for us here, but beneath all the sludge being heaved our way there's something to be gained. So don't be afraid of the opinions of people who don't follow their own mantras. Just do the best you can. It's all we ask for.

      What lovely words from an obviously sorely missed man. I am sorry if anything I have done has caused you more distress but thanks as well for respecting me and reeling me in if I need it.

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    • Yyp

      The guys have said everything I could say, but it would be wrong of me not to say something. Don't worry about that crowd or their wiki or their mischief. Just let them do their own thing, it will keep them occupied and out of some trouble. Idle hands are the devil's playthings as they say.

      You have been here a relatively short time compared to them but yet have made a much bigger (and positive) impact on this wiki than they have in all their years lurking here and you have been a breath of fresh air. Don't let them (or anyone else) get in your head. The advice above is great, follow it and you can't go far wrong.

      And keep up the exellent work, which we are all extremely grateful for.

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    • So I see Sei messaged you and said we stole stuff from them when "They were debating." No, Ten made a blog to attack us and say that our Wiki was wrong. Can see that here. He removed it after accusing US of being wrong.

      That image we uploaded was taken from a post made over TEN YEARS ago. Right here nd you can see the image linked there and thats the image I took after they accused us of being wrong.

      Last week Sei and his cohorts tried to notification bombard me knowing I have no reason to talk to someone who want to punch me and mocked my disability. Yeah such a nice guy who doesn't do insults. He's also harassing us on Reddit to see here and saying I quote

      It will be, but we're determined. It may not be for the purest of reasons, I'll admit I would very much love to crush Bleach Wiki.

      So disagree and have different opinion and they want to crush you and insult you. But yeah sorry had to address those lies we have never and will never "steal" anything from them.

      But yes if you want to do work there that is always ok Timjer. Please note I have never ever attacked those people and they cannot say the same given they went after me last week.

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    • SunXia wrote: So I see Sei messaged you and said we stole stuff from them when "They were debating." No, Ten made a blog to attack us and say that our Wiki was wrong. Can see that here. He removed it after accusing US of being wrong.

      That image we uploaded was taken from a post made over TEN YEARS ago. Right here nd you can see the image linked there and thats the image I took after they accused us of being wrong.

      Last week Sei and his cohorts tried to notification bombard me knowing I have no reason to talk to someone who want to punch me and mocked my disability. Yeah such a nice guy who doesn't do insults. He's also harassing us on Reddit to see here and saying I quote

      It will be, but we're determined. It may not be for the purest of reasons, I'll admit I would very much love to crush Bleach Wiki.

      So disagree and have different opinion and they want to crush you and insult you. But yeah sorry had to address those lies we have never and will never "steal" anything from them.

      But yes if you want to do work there that is always ok Timjer. Please note I have never ever attacked those people and they cannot say the same given they went after me last week.

      Some decent points in their blog post, like Kaien especially and decent trivia, but my god are they awful attitude problems. Really puts you off having anything to do with them. Im not telling anyone not to be involved with them (not my place) but me personally, wouldnt go near them with a barge pole.

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    • Honestly I have not read most of it, I read the Cifer part being wrong and rolled my eyes and closed it down. I have no problem if people want to have constructive criticism. Some problems have been decades because its such a big site. Constructive criticism, however, does not give anyone an excuse to attack anyone else or try to make their opinions feel worthless.

      Honestly some of the messages I have been bombarded with remind me of Nice Guy Syndrome, feeling so right in your stance you don't see the attacks you are making.

      But yeah That Cifer image was always linked here, its not new, been here almost as long as I have, I found the link and sent to Xil who decided to upload it to present more clear demonstration.

      Maintaining sites like this is huge and everyone has something that they desperately want to see improved. But I am not going to read their criticism if they cannot be polite, done with the tit for tat tripe, its unproductive.

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    • Agreed Sun, I'm always open to hearing about what we can improve and having things we've overlooked for years pointed out/fixed, since we're all fallible and make mistakes in our editing, but these users claiming to be superior to us with their new wiki are using the fact that we've slipped up period as an excuse to degrade us as contributors and mock our extensive database. It's clearly an issue of going after us mods/admins instead of actually trying to help people, as they could've brought up/fixed those issues they're now complaining about while they were here and unbanned but chose not to do so in favor of laying about and harassing people. They're not worth listening to or even considering anymore.

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    • Just wanting to clarify something.

      As I said to them over there, I don't want to get too involved in this fanbase conflict as I wasn't there when it began, therefore I am in no position to judge or condemn anyone. My first priority will be to Bleach itself, as a work, rather than the fanbase and their opinions. I hope everyone can respect that.

      That being said, I'm not opposed to having different wiki's with different perspectives per se. Even a friendly rivalry between them isn't a bad thing. But this sadly doesn't seem to be friendly anymore, does it? NOT POINTING FINGERS, mind you, just saying that the shism clearly did not happen amicably.

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    • Its never been friendly Timjer. As soon as we disagreed with them they lit up over and over and over again. They have never been able to offer constructive criticism without it de-evolving into this. Ten has a habit of going too far with accusation and admitted as much himself. We gave him many chances to change over the years. Still wants to be disruptive.

      Ten wrote: Anyways, my point is that I never intended to turn it into a fight and I ended up taking it too far. I usually do. It's a flaw of mine. But that doesn't keep me from cooling down and seeing what I did wrong. I mean you no hostility, nor your wiki, and certainly not your team. I know you weren't being homophobic.

      They are unable to disagree without "taking it too far" and that's something we do not want around here. Told them for years to make their own and now that all of them are banned, they are. Good for them.

      Also you know of my disability that my Period comes everyday without medication that gives me Menopause to stop it. Sei mocked that while being sexist at the same time. He thinks this was 4 years ago, he's wrong it was longer but its something I live and struggle with everyday and he just cannot get enough insulted a disabled woman trying to make the most of her life over and over. But he's the honorable one, yeah...sure. And when you have a disability that sticks with you when people mock you over it.

      Sei wrote: the other idiotic users like SunXia (whose stupid exclaimation marks at the end of every goddamn sentence makes me want to punch her in the face; using normal periods is too normal for her? Or does it remind her of a certain monthly visitor who won't visit anymore? I know I'm being rude as Hell, but that's just how annoying she is.)

      We are not perfect and have never ever claimed to be. I suggested adding the info to articles in tabs years ago, literally and as I said to you many times, it was agreed if it would happen so long as the novel articles were expanded to give us that foundation.

      But yeah as I said, they can do what they want just leave us out of it.

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    • I don't wanna randomly join in, but didn't you guys ban them before they could edit anything? I mean you say we are happy with constructive criticism...unless i'm missing something.

      no like genuinely what happened that the beef started

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    • Yyp

      Mofo50CX wrote: I don't wanna randomly join in, but didn't you guys ban them before they could edit anything? I mean you say we are happy with constructive criticism...unless i'm missing something.

      no like genuinely what happened that the beef started

      They're not new members, they've been around for years and have actually had plenty of chances to edit any page or question something on the talk pages or forums if they didn't want to make the change themselves. I mean, fair enough if its something that only came to light this past week, but they seem to be talking about older stuff

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    • Mhmm, the bans came after YEARS of Ten and his cronies belittling us over this and many other things while refusing to do any work themselves. They had all the time in the world to put their money where their mouths were, but didn't.

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    • Mofo50CX wrote: I don't wanna randomly join in, but didn't you guys ban them before they could edit anything? I mean you say we are happy with constructive criticism...unless i'm missing something.

      no like genuinely what happened that the beef started

      They are not new users. They do love to propagate this lie of "Won't let us edit" yeah no what they mean is that they want it their way and if they don't get it they resort to insults.

      When the issue of these novels began rising I opened a thread within which, you can see by the dates, that the Manga articles could have tabs added on to reference things like Novels and such but only AFTER the articles FOR those Novels, that have lay bare for years, were filled out. You can also see that it was years ago we decided this so now that Timjer has agreed to edit the pages for the novels we can now start to move forward. This is not new and was not influenced by them.

      Each time those users would come here and, knowing its not part of our policy, add the information to Manga canon articles from the Novels. Each time they added the information, it was reverted and they would accost whoever did it and told to fill out the articles for the novels if it was so important for them to have the novels on the Wiki.

      Wikis are voluntary, none of us have access to the Novels as they are Japanese and thus we have to read Amateur translations (ie not professional work as MissStormCaller does not get paid for it to be published) which are very difficult to work with.

      The Novel articles you can find here and they have lay bare since their creation. And yet they mentioned nothing until these novels were released. Yes it's a nice narrative to go to Reddit and encourage abuse with misleading lies that we wouldn't allow them to edit. We did allow them to edit just not the way they wanted as why should their opinion matter more than people who have dedicated over a decade to this site? Because they think their opinion should matter more? No.

      We encouraged them time and again to edit the articles for the Novels and they never bothered. Just insulted us over and over and lambasting our opinions because we want to maintain consistent and have the Novels separate as we always have. Given their history of causing negative disruption with our members (see my previous post) this was the last of a very long straw they were given.

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    • Reinforcing the others' posts, they absolutely had every chance to contribute to the Wiki. Unfortunately, they chose instead to instigate a conflict and then twist it in a way as to make it seem like they were the victims. In reality they all have long histories of being aggressive, insulting and just downright unpleasant towards the editors here. Some of this spans over the course of a decade, some related to a previous moderator who is no longer part of the wiki. It's ranged from complaining ad nauseam about the series to outright threats of physical violence.

      Between the examples Sun already gave, and this gem (https://bleach.fandom.com/wiki/User_talk:Xilinoc?diff=prev&oldid=461750), do these seem like peaceful, rational people to you? Or the kind who by now have outright admitted to having created their new site in order to, and I quote, "crush Bleach Wiki"?

      As I said before, they have the right to create their own wiki, even if they've largely built it on duplicity and deception. Just like we have the right to call them out on nearly ten years of awful behavior.

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    • None of this is new. I called Ten/GokuBlack on his antagonist behavior YEARS AGO and I was more or less told to “Shut up Bitch.” https://bleach.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Xilinoc/Ch._610_-_Mausoleum_of_Skulls#comm-100213 I never want to be one to say “Told ya so,” but here we are. Clearly they have no interest other than being antagonist and are bringing shit up from when Xil was like 15 years old (and taken COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTEXT) and personally find it insulting that someone who claims to be gay to attack other users who happen to be part of the LBGT community whether as an ally or isn’t heterosexual. There is a reason why these fools were banned and it isn’t because of the novels or some sort of fictional power trip.

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    • i mean, i might seem im ranting at this point, but some the articles already on the wiki have history and content from the anime fillers and movies so the pages aren't exactly strictly canon and more of a mixed filler/canon.

      But ye other than that, i'm not taking any sides cuz theres always too sides of the argument what they did seems horrible but i can't really judge as i wasn't there and don't know the full story

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    • We voted long ago about canon policy and you can find it here. The Manga is our main and primary source and then the Anime because its a concurrent adaptation of the Manga. Because many of our users just watch the Anime, as opposed to reading the Manga, we decided to include the arcs in the order the anime was release but with Fillers collapsible and hidden on the pages of Manga-Canon characters with (anime only) beside it. So they are there, but a shadow.

      Personally I am not against the idea of having them separate in Tabs as well. Again, these are not the first batches of novels released for Bleach, the first one being released in 2004 I think, the date is on its article, and nobody ever cared that we didn't include them anywhere because we didn't have access to them.

      I personally, and the majority of the users who edit here, Timjer being the exception, do not feel these novels are any different in terms of canon because Kubo designed some thing. Kubo has designed a lot of things and why wouldn't he, he gets paid for it. He designed Senna, the Zanpakuto Spirits in the Filler, a bumch of characters over on Brave Souls etc etc etc.

      On that topic people tried to claim the Novels inclusion in Brave Souls was extra proof and yet the creators of that game but it, not in the Canon story section but in the side story section, beside the fillers and movies.

      Now its fine to disagree with our stance and through years of discourse we decided to include the information in Tabs to separate them out. I think Timjer used Attack on Titan Wiki for its main characters as an example.

      But yeah this forum has served it purpose now I think. The unfounded accusations of theft have been addressed. Before those accusation concerned our editor we were closing this chapter and I feel we have aired enough on it. You wanted our side and we gave it. All my interactions with those people can be found in my Contributions over the years and a couple on their Wiki for Fanon when i asked them to stop sending people over to attack me by creating blogs about me. I have no interest in interacting with people who can't have civil discussions without resorting to insults.

      People disagree and thats ok, but we do not go over to any of their several wiki (they also have a second Dragon Ball Wiki called Dragon Ball Universe Wiki after Ten did similar actions on the original and got banned. I've also seen a regular editor there also created a second My Hero Academia Wiki so there appears to be a bit of a theme.) they can do as they please, I advised them long ago to cut the vitriol if they wanted to remain or take it and put it to use at their own Wiki. It looks like to took getting banned to work on that new wiki which is fine no skin off my nose.

      So in conclusion to this thread, since we have all aired what we have to say, its time to end this. We have never copied their Wiki and never will, we have purchased and are using our own official things as best we can. Sure on a site this big, things slip through, things they didn't bring up at the time, and if anyone wants to query problems with articles thats what talk pages are for, to discuss their improvements. And only direct copy and pastes are when credit is needed.

      Let's leave this awful chapter in the past.

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