Ascha'Vovina (talk | contribs) Tag: sourceedit |
SilverRain (talk | contribs) |
||
| (28 intermediate revisions by 11 users not shown) | |||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
| − | {{Talkheader|1|2|3|4|5|6|7}} |
+ | {{Talkheader|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8}} |
| − | == Bankai's Enhanced Strength? == |
||
| − | {{Discussion Closed}} |
||
| − | Shouldn't Ichigo's "Enhanced Strength" on his Bankai Special Abilities be listed under his general Enhanced Strength? I mean has there really been any mention of his Bankai increasing his strength? We know he gains an incredible speed increase and even Byakuya and Grimmjow had noted that that was the only change. Sure he blocked Yammy's punch, but we don't know if Ichigo could have done that without Bankai. His Enhanced Strength shown during the Hueco Mundo battles were due to his Hollow Mask. His Enhanced Strength shown in his battle with Ginjou was due to his Fullbring enhancements(as noted by Ginjou). The only thing left is his strength after coming out of the Dangai. But that could have easily been the results of his Dangai training. We never knew if his strength was any different in Shikai at the time. So in the end, couldn't we agree that Tensa Zangetsu DOES NOT give Ichigo a strength increase? [[User:Khaotic Twist|Khaotic Twist]] <sup>([[User talk:Khaotic Twist|talk]])</sup> 05:34, March 24, 2016 (UTC)[[User:Khaotic Twist|Khaotic Twist]] <sup>([[User talk:Khaotic Twist|talk]])</sup> 05:31, March 24, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| + | == Former Hollow Powers == |
||
| − | :Why would you bring up something that isnt even relevant to his current powers. Your whole point is to dispute something under former powers. Also your points are unverified, you move under the assumption that Ichigo has such natural enhanced strength in the way that Sado does which isnt true. There is no proof ichigo possesses the capability to do any of the stuff listed outside of the categorizes they are listed under as he has never been shown to do so while out of Them. Thus there is a example for each under all categories fullbring, hollowfication, bankai. You point out we dont know if he couldnt have done this or that without bankai, the burden is for you to prove that he can, seeing as your making that charge. Your also making points covered in each category. It doesnt translate that "we never knew if his strength was any different in shikai at the time". That doesnt make your point, it makes the point that you cant rightly argue against said enhancement.--{{User:Salubri/Sig2|05:54,3/24/2016}} |
||
| + | How are they former? He literally used them in the final battle, and beside that, the new novel (i know we cant reference it yet) explicitly states he has it still. After the last battle it never stated anything about losing that power. --[[User:J spencer93|J spencer93]] <sup>([[User talk:J spencer93|talk]])</sup> 01:17, July 28, 2017 (UTC) |
||
| + | : When Yhwach used his power drain attack on Ichigo, the latter said he could feel his Quincy and Hollow powers being drained away. Since he did not use them subsequently, it was assumed that this indicated that Yhwach had stripped him of them. The most-recent light novel has confirmed he still has his Hollow powers, but - so far as I know - doesn't mention his Quincy powers. As with the ''Naruto'' light novels, the canonicity of the ''Bleach'' light novels is heavily debated among the fandom, but the general consensus on this fandom has been to dismiss the light novels as non-canon because they are not solely written by Tite Kubo himself. [[User:Arawn 999|Arawn 999]] <sup>([[User talk:Arawn 999|talk]])</sup> 03:21, July 28, 2017 (UTC) |
||
| − | : |
+ | :(Since this discussion isn't closed), I have to say I agree with the OP. There is nothing to suggest Ichigo's Hollow and Quincy powers are permanently gone after Yhwach's defeat. On the contrary, the manga itself clearly states that Ichigo's Hollow, Quincy, and Shinigami powers are linked and one and the same. Yes, Yhwach was said to drained Ichigo's Quincy and Hollow powers, but since he could still use his Zanpakuto (a fusion of them all) later on, even in Bankai, suggests that they weren't ''fully'' drained and Ichigo still had them.<br/>Besides, we saw that Liltotto and Bazz-B still had their Quincy powers and Schrift even after the Aushwahlen, so it does seem that Yhwach's drain is not permanent if it's not fatal.[[User:Timjer|Timjer]] <sup>([[User talk:Timjer|talk]])</sup> 20:18, December 30, 2019 (UTC) |
| + | ::Well, since nobody actually disagreed with this yet, I suppose I'll change Ichigo's powerset, as my reasoning does make perfect sense to me. [[User:Timjer|Timjer]] <sup>([[User talk:Timjer|talk]])</sup> 13:16, January 5, 2020 (UTC) |
||
| − | :::All available evidence indicates that Ichigo receives enhancements to all his powers and abilities when he enters bankai; the onus is on you to prove otherwise. Citing what Grimmjow said isn't evidence of anything. Ichigo being able to knock-out three lieutenants is a lot different from cutting right through the hierro of an espada, regardless of how 'weak' they are. Yoruichi, despite being able to easily take down Yammy, still got injured due to his thick hierro. {{:User:Kman111/Sig}} 06:54, March 24, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| + | :::I agree with this change. The reasoning also makes sense to me. [[User:SilverRain|SilverRain]] <sup>([[User talk:SilverRain|talk]])</sup> 14:52, January 24, 2020 (UTC) |
||
| − | ::::But what evidence are saying that's available? That's what i want to know. Otherwise everything would be assumptions and should be indicated as such. Of course Yoruichi is going to hurt her hands, because she as beating up Yammy with her bare hands. If she was using a weapon, her hands wouldn't be injured. And despite that, Yammy was all bruised and bloodied from all the abuse. [[User:Khaotic Twist|Khaotic Twist]] <sup>([[User talk:Khaotic Twist|talk]])</sup> 07:31, March 24, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| + | == Ancestor == |
||
| − | ::::The references that are already there. Why is this such a big deal? It's in the former powers and abilities section anyway, so what's the point of changing it even if it were wrong (which it isn't). Also Yoruichi fights bare-handed all the time, so by your logic she should get injured each time she fights. {{:User:Kman111/Sig}} 08:02, March 24, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| + | Should Yhwach not be added to his infobox as an ancestor? The man outright stated he is the progenitor of the Quincies, and his blood flows in all Quincies. Ichigo later says this himself. These aren't ambiguous statements. The same applies to Uryū, but I decided to bring it up on Ichigo.—[[User:LastationLover5000|Mina Țepeș]] <nowiki>[[File:Two Star.png|20px|link=User talk:LastationLover5000]]</nowiki> 10:39, October 7, 2018 (UTC) |
||
| − | :::::If you didn't think it was such a "big deal", then we wouldn't be going back and forth like this. So what if it's a former power/ability? It's still in his page, therefore it's still matters. And saying that it isn't such a "big deal" to discuss is a petty way of proving your point. Yoruichi was still fighting someone with Hierro, so in this case her hands would hurt from the resistance. Strength and durability is not the same. It's like being able to break a wooden board but you still might hurt your hand afterwards. Anyways, all I wanted was for you to hear me out on my suggestion. If you still disagree, then does nothing more I can say(even though I still don't think i'm wrong). [[User:Khaotic Twist|Khaotic Twist]] <sup>([[User talk:Khaotic Twist|talk]])</sup> 09:18, March 24, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | |||
| − | ::::::I think the point made by Kman111 and myself says it all. Your saying that we are using assumptions and therefore that should be indicated. Firstly assumptions arent used here. The fact is every instance shown is shown when ichigo is either in bankai, fullbring, hollowfication. Meaning we can only list what we see him do when he is in the state he is. He has not shown the capability outside of that state we cant say he has the capability out of that state. Secondly it would be an assumption to think he is capable of such a thing outside of the other states mentioned when you dont know if that is possible. Which seems to be your position. Thus I said prove that he can use it outside of bankai. Now you say the examples arent proof of his enhanced strength because he knocked back 3 lieutenants in the SS arc. So that basically proves that he is more powerful then those 3 low powered lieutenants which we already know considering he can hold his own with captains at that point. Also for your argument to work you would have to discredit the fact that Yammy (post release or not) is still in possession of high levels of strength. Now if what you say is true then why not do any of those feats of strength while in shikai...unless he doesnt have that level of strength in shikai which explains all the reasons he isn't in shikai prior to serious battle in series. True enough most characters dont have their bankai work for them in that capacity but then again not everyone is in a constant state of bankai either like ichigo who needs the enhancement that he gets from it.--{{User:Salubri/Sig2|12:20,3/24/2016}} |
||
| − | |||
| − | :::::::Ichigo stopped Yammy's hand with just his Shikai's blade before using Bankai. There's that. [[User:Khaotic Twist|Khaotic Twist]] <sup>([[User talk:Khaotic Twist|talk]])</sup> 15:59, March 24, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | |||
| − | :: I remember Grimmjow remarking that all Ichigo's bankai did was increase his speed during their first battle, but that probably shouldn't be read into too much. [[User:Arawn 999|Arawn 999]] <sup>([[User talk:Arawn 999|talk]])</sup> 06:05, March 24, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | |||
| − | ::Grimmjaw commenting on something he couldnt really know about seeing its not his bankai or something arrancar understand but more importantly. Its not unheard of that a bankai enhances ones typical capabilities. Yes Hyper-Speed is its capability. It also provides stronger getsuga tensho's amongst general enhancements ichigo doesnt have outside of bankai.--{{User:Salubri/Sig2|06:14,3/24/2016}} |
||
| − | |||
| − | == Grammar Issues == |
||
| − | |||
| − | The entry for his new Hollow form currently reads thusly: "Melded Hollow Form: After melding the power of both Zangetsu spirits together while reforging his Zanpakuto, he gained the ability to transform into a melded Hollow form. Due to his inexperience and incomplete mastery, he needed to borrow some of Yhwach's power from an attack as a catalyst to make his transformation. Ichigo take an appearance similar to the Merged Hollow Form. Only the left side of his body is Hollowfied. The iris of his left became yellow with black pupil and scelera. A horn similar to the hollow form seen by Inoue grew on the left side of his head. Tatooed like markings appeared on the left side of his face and extends down past his neck. Like the Merged Hollow Form of Zangetsu he once fought inside of himself, he has no mask." There are a number of grammatical errors with it that should be corrected. I'd do it myself, but the page was locked. [[User:Arawn 999|Arawn 999]] <sup>([[User talk:Arawn 999|talk]])</sup> 15:02, June 2, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | |||
| − | == Current Bankai: Tensa Zangetsu (To be determined)? == |
||
| − | Seeing as how significant of a change Ichigo's Zanpakutō went through, it doesn't make sense to have its current name to remain the same. Are we going under the premise that the Quincy manifestation gave him the true name of his Zanpakutō, seeing as he has only "lied" about his name being Zangetsu? Ichigo still reforged it in the end, so we could see it receive a new name as a result of combining his powers. [[User:Gold3263301|Gold3263301]] <sup>([[User talk:Gold3263301|talk]])</sup> 20:04, June 9, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | |||
| − | It seems logical to leave it since it's name is still Zangetsu. We'll find out in a week anyways and it's been like that for so long [[User:Riptide240|Riptide240]] <sup>([[User talk:Riptide240|talk]])</sup> 20:32, June 9, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | |||
| − | : On the other hand, Zabimaru lied to Renji about the true name of his bankai. It's possible that the Old Man did the same or something similar, or that it might significantly change as a result of him having access to his full powers. Still, we'll (probably) find out next week. [[User:Arawn 999|Arawn 999]] <sup>([[User talk:Arawn 999|talk]])</sup> 01:29, June 10, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | |||
| − | == Reiatsu Control == |
||
| − | |||
| − | Is it still at a Novice level? Given what Hikifune said and what's happened during his fight with Yhwach it seems that he has full control over his Reiatsu now. [[User:Kaido King of the Beasts|Kaido King of the Beasts]] <sup>([[User talk:Kaido King of the Beasts|talk]])</sup> 11:35, June 13, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | |||
| − | == Terminology Mistake == |
||
| − | |||
| − | When talking about Ichigo's "Merged Hollow Form", the article says his pupil turns yellow. It's actually his iris that changes, and what colour it changes to - if any - is unknown unless colour spreads of it are revealed. [[User:Arawn 999|Arawn 999]] <sup>([[User talk:Arawn 999|talk]])</sup> 09:17, June 16, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | |||
| − | == Zanpakuto a Former Ability? == |
||
| − | |||
| − | Given the events in today's chapter, I moved Ichigo's Quincy and Hollow powers to the Former Powers and Abilities section. I'm wondering if we should put his new Zanpakuto in the section as well, as it was broken in Bankai, so Ichigo effectively can no longer use it (well, until it gets fixed somehow) [[User:Kaido King of the Beasts|Kaido King of the Beasts]] <sup>([[User talk:Kaido King of the Beasts|talk]])</sup> 14:34, June 30, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | : We should probably wait and see exactly what's happened to him and if he even has any power left, since my understanding was that his Hollow power was merged with his Soul Reaper power. [[User:Arawn 999|Arawn 999]] <sup>([[User talk:Arawn 999|talk]])</sup> 15:23, June 30, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | After this part However, they are all interrupted when Ichigo is stabbed through the shoulder by Shūkurō Tsukishima, who reveals that he has altered the past so that Tensa Zangetsu can be fixed. With this done wouldn't he have his powers back as well sence his sword is an extention of his powers?[[User:Malkiv|Malkiv]] <sup>([[User talk:Malkiv|talk]])</sup> 06:26, July 16, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | : We'll have to wait and see. He never remarked on feeling his Quincy or Hollow powers returning, but the fact that his Zanpakuto is still partially white implies that his Hollow powers aren't as gone as he thinks they are. Maybe we'll get to see what Zangetsu looks like without being overshadowed by White, but who knows. [[User:Arawn 999|Arawn 999]] <sup>([[User talk:Arawn 999|talk]])</sup> 07:57, July 16, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | |||
| − | == Trivia Section == |
||
| − | |||
| − | I guess if you want to make an edit to this page and not have it reverted right away, the thing to do is inquire about it here. Other character pages have a trivia section, so why not Ichigo? [[User:Arawn 999|Arawn 999]] <sup>([[User talk:Arawn 999|talk]])</sup> 17:49, August 2, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | |||
| − | :It was an accidental duplication that was reverted. Don't worry, Ichigo does have a [[Ichigo Kurosaki#Trivia|Trivia section]]. Hope that helps. {{User:SunXia/Sig2|17:55,8/2/2016}} |
||
| − | |||
| − | :: Ah, I see it now. Thanks for clarifying. [[User:Arawn 999|Arawn 999]] <sup>([[User talk:Arawn 999|talk]])</sup> 18:56, August 2, 2016 (UTC) |
||
| − | |||
| − | == If his hollow power is also part of his zanpakuto, why is it listed in his former abilities? == |
||
| − | |||
| − | It doesnt make a great deal of sense, if that were the case ichigo would have lost his zanpakuto |
||
| − | |||
| − | ([[User:Hadrimon|Hadrimon]] <sup>([[User talk:Hadrimon|talk]])</sup> 13:18, August 18, 2016 (UTC)) |
||
| − | |||
| − | : During their final battle, Yhwach was able to remove Ichigo's Hollow powers because he had inherited them from his mother. How he was able to do so when White's soul had fused with Ichigo's Soul Reaper powers, what the repercussions of that are for Ichigo, and what Zangetsu's spirit form look like are unknown, since it's not explained beyond that. [[User:Arawn 999|Arawn 999]] <sup>([[User talk:Arawn 999|talk]])</sup> 14:24, August 18, 2016 (UTC) |
||
Revision as of 14:52, 24 January 2020
| Skip to table of contents | ||
|
This is the talk page for the "Ichigo Kurosaki" article.
| |
Former Hollow Powers
How are they former? He literally used them in the final battle, and beside that, the new novel (i know we cant reference it yet) explicitly states he has it still. After the last battle it never stated anything about losing that power. --J spencer93 (talk) 01:17, July 28, 2017 (UTC)
- When Yhwach used his power drain attack on Ichigo, the latter said he could feel his Quincy and Hollow powers being drained away. Since he did not use them subsequently, it was assumed that this indicated that Yhwach had stripped him of them. The most-recent light novel has confirmed he still has his Hollow powers, but - so far as I know - doesn't mention his Quincy powers. As with the Naruto light novels, the canonicity of the Bleach light novels is heavily debated among the fandom, but the general consensus on this fandom has been to dismiss the light novels as non-canon because they are not solely written by Tite Kubo himself. Arawn 999 (talk) 03:21, July 28, 2017 (UTC)
- (Since this discussion isn't closed), I have to say I agree with the OP. There is nothing to suggest Ichigo's Hollow and Quincy powers are permanently gone after Yhwach's defeat. On the contrary, the manga itself clearly states that Ichigo's Hollow, Quincy, and Shinigami powers are linked and one and the same. Yes, Yhwach was said to drained Ichigo's Quincy and Hollow powers, but since he could still use his Zanpakuto (a fusion of them all) later on, even in Bankai, suggests that they weren't fully drained and Ichigo still had them.
Besides, we saw that Liltotto and Bazz-B still had their Quincy powers and Schrift even after the Aushwahlen, so it does seem that Yhwach's drain is not permanent if it's not fatal.Timjer (talk) 20:18, December 30, 2019 (UTC)
- I agree with this change. The reasoning also makes sense to me. SilverRain (talk) 14:52, January 24, 2020 (UTC)
Ancestor
Should Yhwach not be added to his infobox as an ancestor? The man outright stated he is the progenitor of the Quincies, and his blood flows in all Quincies. Ichigo later says this himself. These aren't ambiguous statements. The same applies to Uryū, but I decided to bring it up on Ichigo.—Mina Țepeș [[File:Two Star.png|20px|link=User talk:LastationLover5000]] 10:39, October 7, 2018 (UTC)