Thanks for the reply @SunXia. Having a modicum of decorum cuts all ways. Also thanks for referring me to that other thread. I'll keep it civil, but that goes for others too.
Bri-Keyes-1 wrote: Thanks for the reply @SunXia. Having a modicum of decorum cuts all ways. Also thanks for referring me to that other thread. I'll keep it civil, but that goes for others too.
Sorry if I was harsh or anything, I admit I was a little frustrated that the communication wasn't working but I never meant any ill will.
Please understand that over these novels I have dealt with lots of abuse from multiple other users on other Wikis and on Reddit just because I disagree about something so if I appeared short or anything, I apologise. (I am not talking about mere disagreements on that I am talking full on insults and such ranging from my Gender (female) and my disability for reference)
In regards to the Novels, at least CFYOW, Timjer has been filling out the articles. We are still trying to figure out what to do and how to incorporate the details. I created this thread to explain our position to new users which links to this thread to discuss novels and things.
Yeah, it's canon. Unfortunately whenever a person has this question, someone (Always the same person) posts a link about "Bleach Wiki: Canon Policy" that means absolutely nothing (Since the Wiki isn't owned by Shonen Jump or Tite Kubo, so they don't consider canon has no value) and then locks the topic preventing anyone else from being able to answer more clearly about it (which sounds like a kind of censorship).
The vast majority of other Bleach groups like Reddit are far more open about this subject and generally consider the novels canon as they answers many open questions and the manga is unlikely to continue.
Look, Suzuki, do you have anything constructive to add, or are you just trying to reignite a flame war? While I personally agree that it's canon (or at least canon enough), I can also understand the wiki's point. After all, movies, games, & filler aren't canon, so why would the books be? Not to mention we have no idea how much of the novel were Kubo's original ideas, and how much Narita improvised.
Regardless, I'd like to say that the wiki has earned my goodwill as they aren't the ones treating me like crap for actually contributing to the novel info. Everybody else (such as the reddit) either ignores my efforts to shit on me further, or complain that I'm not working hard enough. You actually want to make a difference? Then help me rather than complain.
SuzukiTenma wrote: Yeah, it's canon.
I am sure you have proof to cite your claim??
SuzukiTenma wrote: Unfortunately whenever a person has this question, someone (Always the same person) posts a link about "Bleach Wiki: Canon Policy" that means absolutely nothing
Of course policies mean nothing to people who do not contribute to this Wiki. I'm sorry you feel that way about policies that have kept up consistency and quality in our articles. I will take it as a compliment that you feel the need to come here to complain, shows that you use our site and thus feel that it should be updated. If you didn't use the site, you wouldn't care. Thanks, people benefitting from our hard work is always the goal.
SuzukiTenma wrote: locks the topic preventing anyone else from being able to answer more clearly about it (which sounds like a kind of censorship).
I know, censorship is awful. I am sorry you have been unable to post a reply on this site. Oh wait, you just did. Censorship must be such a burden for you to deal with right now. I am sorry for your loss.
SuzukiTenma wrote: The vast majority of other Bleach groups like Reddit
Oh the Reddit filled with toxic users who turned to sexist attacks when advised that the Wiki is a democracy of people who actually edit here and they are free to join and get a say? Yeah I must say, it's not difficult at all for me not to care what a bunch of sexist (except a spare good few who had the politeness to apologise) people think about a Wiki I have spent over a decade contributing to.
SuzukiTenma wrote: consider the novels canon as they answers many open questions and the manga is unlikely to continue.
It's so nice of you to decide and care about the novels now that you have no Manga to read. It paints a very clear picture when you have not bleeped a word about the other Novels when they were released and only did so after the Manga ending had an emotional impact upon you.
Kubo has said the novels are canon. I would say that his word is more worth than any canon policy. There is an interview with Matsubara that explains how the novels were created: https://www.reddit.com/r/bleach/comments/93dxdo/snippet_from_a_recent_four_part_interview_with/
The afterword of the novels also has Kubo's own statement: https://www.reddit.com/r/bleach/comments/ag5wp4/afterword_of_cant_fear_your_own_world_by_tite/
And in Bleach Jet Kubo talks again about the novels: https://missstormcaller.tumblr.com/post/181065275297/bleach-jet-artbook-talk-vol-1-translation
https://missstormcaller.tumblr.com/post/181065286617/bleach-jet-artbook-talk-vol-2-translation
All four sources show clearly that Kubo sees the novels as canon. So we should also see it canon. Kubo's statements trump everything.
I also wonder how many people here have actually read the novels. It seems it is only the person who does the summaries, while everyone else only goes by the summaries made by them or other people. One can hate or love the novels, but it is poor policy to decry them without actually having read them. Let alone declare that they don't fit the canon or that they are full of holes. I think everyone who wants to engage in discussions about how canon, good or logical the novels are should first read them fully.
SIGH ...Look, as the person who almost solely writes the summaries here, this perpetual disagreement in the fandom is getting tiresome. Thus, I hope we can actually find a resolution for it.
Now, as much as I respect the wiki staff, and understand their point and policies (especially since the official translations are still over half a year away), I do think DodoTheYoko as a point as well. From all those things, Kubo really does seem to consider the novels a proper continuation for his manga. And at least now we have a source rather than the usual "Because I said so".
Likewise, and I mean no offense, the only person here I know of who does seem to follow the novel story (only through my summaries afaik) is Xilinoc, who has kinda made it clear he is not a fan of it. While I agree novel makes some (seemingly) unneccesary changes, most of them aren't as contradicting or farfetched as he seems to believe. At least, IMO.
The point I'm trying to make is, can the wiki perhaps try to have another internal discussion over what to do? As long as the other side remains civil, of course, and actually tries to help me rather than exclusively complain(*). Personally, I'll continue my work, no worries, but I'll say it will feel more rewarding if it's no longer contained on its own, non-canon sections here.
(*)I mean, if even half of the complainers would put that effort into helping me fill out, idk, Ikomikidomoe, Hikone Ubuginu, or Tokinada Tsunayashiro's pages, then we'd be a lot farther in our work.
See, here's the major underlying problem with these novels' canonicity, even with those sources: nowhere do I see Kubo saying "I consider this part of the official Bleach manga timeline" or something in that vein. I see him saying "So these were some ideas/concepts/designs I contributed to these novels" and Narita backing that up. Why is that distinction important? Because look at what else Kubo has contributed ideas/concepts/designs to - the anime, the movies, and the video games. All wholly non-canonical and oftentimes contradicting the source material of the manga; I guess you could consider them "alternate universe" stuff as Brave Souls has established the existence of with the Hōgyoku Espada and all that, but certainly not part of Kubo's storyline. That on its own is nowhere near enough to claim as proof of canonicity.
And here's the other thing that I just want to clear up here. It's not that I, the rest of the mod team, and others don't consider these novels canon because we don't like them - to us, the writing, characterizations, and events that Narita puts out feel incredibly different from those of Kubo, to the point that it feels like he barely had any influence over the process. It almost feels like he's just throwing in what he thinks would be cool rather than taking a close look at what the manga has established and building from there, then claiming that Kubo said it was okay so it's all good. I don't want to get into another back-and-forth about individual points of contention again, but the third volume is what really broke my suspensions of disbelief about this being Kubo's vision, with the backstory it provides for the setting and its depiction of those long-awaited Bankai among other things. In fact, to me it feels like Narita telling Kubo and the audience "those 686 chapters of manga are cool and all, but here's what I think Bleach should be" in a manner that just feels extremely disrespectful to the franchise, the fanbase, and common sense.
Thirdly, to provide some clarity for the divide between us and the novel supporters: some of them, like you, Timjer, actually want to help us out and put the work in on something we don't particularly care for. Which is great! But the majority do not; they would instead prefer to jab at us and complain on various websites about the lack of progress and the mean ol' moderators who don't kneel at their feet in reverence. Moreover, it feels like only Narita's light novels receive this adulation and special treatment - where's the outcry over the lack of content from the OTHER light novels, like Letters from the Other Side and Death Save the Strawberry, in the fanbase? Do they not matter as much somehow? To tell you the truth, I think it ties into my second point up there - see, the non-Narita light novels actually restrain themselves in scope and importance by focusing on things like the week that Ichigo and his friends spent in Soul Society after Aizen defected or what went down in Soul Society during the events of the Lost Agent arc with Rukia and Renji, and in doing so don't contradict anything from the manga and actually feel somewhat canonical in nature. But Narita just kinda does whatever he wants with the characters and setting, and that attracts a certain part of the fandom with their own ideas about what Bleach should be - for proof of this, look no further than the individuals who went off and started their own Bleach wiki to incorporate CFYOW's content as canonical when we wouldn't after years of blasting Kubo and his writing decisions as they wrote their own outrageous fanfiction about the setting. Of course, not everyone who likes the novels is like that (Timjer, YouAreAllWolves, Hut245), and I'm not here to berate people for just liking something, but it really says a lot about the content of Narita's writing that those who despise Kubo's Bleach love it and hate us more for not liking it in turn.
Xilinoc wrote: See, here's the major underlying problem with these novels' canonicity, even with those sources: nowhere do I see Kubo saying "I consider this part of the official Bleach manga timeline" or something in that vein. I see him saying "So these were some ideas/concepts/designs I contributed to these novels" and Narita backing that up. Why is that distinction important? Because look at what else Kubo has contributed ideas/concepts/designs to - the anime, the movies, and the video games. All wholly non-canonical and oftentimes contradicting the source material of the manga; I guess you could consider them "alternate universe" stuff as Brave Souls has established the existence of with the Hōgyoku Espada and all that, but certainly not part of Kubo's storyline. That on its own is nowhere near enough to claim as proof of canonicity.
That's indeed a really good point, and something I agree with. The problem is that, as opposed to the Hogyoku espada, which blatantly cannot fit into the timeline aside from "what-ifs", the Bankai of Shinji might very well be something Kubo designed from the beginning and never had the chance to implement. Thing is, we'll never know, so IMO those who say it is his official bankai can be just as right as those who say it isn't.
Xilinoc wrote: And here's the other thing that I just want to clear up here. It's not that I, the rest of the mod team, and others don't consider these novels canon because we don't like them - to us, the writing, characterizations, and events that Narita puts out feel incredibly different from those of Kubo, to the point that it feels like he barely had any influence over the process. It almost feels like he's just throwing in what he thinks would be cool rather than taking a close look at what the manga has established and building from there, then claiming that Kubo said it was okay so it's all good. I don't want to get into another back-and-forth about individual points of contention again, but the third volume is what really broke my suspensions of disbelief about this being Kubo's vision, with the backstory it provides for the setting and its depiction of those long-awaited Bankai among other things. In fact, to me it feels like Narita telling Kubo and the audience "those 686 chapters of manga are cool and all, but here's what I think Bleach should be" in a manner that just feels extremely disrespectful to the franchise, the fanbase, and common sense.
Granted, I may have never studied literature or something, and I may be biased concerning I like the background the novels set out, but I personally don't see it. So perhaps it's best I keep out of that argument.
I mean, if you'd ask me, I think CFYOW retcons less of Bleach's main theme than the latest official chapter of AoT did to itself. But that's just me and AoT is still going on so it may prove me wrong yet.
Xilinoc wrote: Thirdly, to provide some clarity for the divide between us and the novel supporters: some of them, like you, Timjer, actually want to help us out and put the work in on something we don't particularly care for. Which is great! But the majority do not; they would instead prefer to jab at us and complain on various websites about the lack of progress and the mean ol' moderators who don't kneel at their feet in reverence. Moreover, it feels like only Narita's light novels receive this adulation and special treatment - where's the outcry over the lack of content from the OTHER light novels, like Letters from the Other Side and Death Save the Strawberry, in the fanbase? Do they not matter as much somehow? To tell you the truth, I think it ties into my second point up there - see, the non-Narita light novels actually restrain themselves in scope and importance by focusing on things like the week that Ichigo and his friends spent in Soul Society after Aizen defected or what went down in Soul Society during the events of the Lost Agent arc with Rukia and Renji, and in doing so don't contradict anything from the manga and actually feel somewhat canonical in nature. But Narita just kinda does whatever he wants with the characters and setting, and that attracts a certain part of the fandom with their own ideas about what Bleach should be - for proof of this, look no further than the individuals who went off and started their own Bleach wiki to incorporate CFYOW's content as canonical when we wouldn't after years of blasting Kubo and his writing decisions as they wrote their own outrageous fanfiction about the setting. Of course, not everyone who likes the novels is like that (Timjer, YouAreAllWolves, Hut245), and I'm not here to berate people for just liking something, but it really says a lot about the content of Narita's writing that those who despise Kubo's Bleach love it and hate us more for not liking it in turn.
You've got a point there too. And the reason I focused first on CFYOW (aside from the fact that I wanted the biggest done first) is because that's what people were complaining the most about. But I hardly see them complaining in any way about SAFWY or DKALY, despite them being smaller and less retconny...
Anyway, as I said perhaps I should stay out of these arguments in the future. I have a feeling I'm just a bit too biased towards a part of the novels (which may be because I was starving for answers to some open questions) to really be objective to all of it as a whole. But hey, a least Narita didn't ship Ulquihime or something like most fanfic writers did...