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This is the talk page for the "Masked Project" .
Ok I get most of this but the actual issue about what to do with the romainzation change you gave an outline but what is it asking for. Shouldn't it be a simple name change as it appears your addressing other stuff but I dont know what. Also what are these new characters? --Salubri (Talk) 17:01, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
- The new characters are the command structure that existed during the Turn back the pendulum arc. The 10th Division had no captain and it seems the 11th Division had no lieutenant. Otherwise, the hitherto unseen lieutenants of Love, Rose, Yoruichi, Ginrei and the 11th division Kenpachi was revealed in Mask. Rose's lieutenant is Tetsuzaemon Iba's mother, Love's lieutenant is Sentarō Kotsubaki's father, Yoruichi's lieutenant is Marechiyo Ōmaeda's father and Ginrei's lieutenant is his son and Byakuya's father. Also, according to the MASKED that the correct romanisation is Visored not Vizard and the correct romanisation of Izuru is Iduru, it's Risa not Lisa, Syunsui not Shunsui and finally, Sui-Feng not Soifon. Tinni (Talk) 17:16, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm expecting worse than we will actually have to deal with, but if every single thing is changed at once, it gets hard to keep on top of things. So I figured we'd do it one character at a time and only move onto the next when that character is done. We need to find and correct old spellings in the articles (Eg change Tesla to Tesra, which is likely to be on Nnoitra, Orihime, Ichigo, Nel & Zaraki's pages, episode & chapter pages). I just felt that it is easier to do all that for one character at a time rather than having to do it for 10 or more at once. Once a page has been moved & all issues dealt with, the conversation should be moved to the archive on the character's page. I have no issues with changing this, it was just what I thought best. ~~Ууp <talk> 17:21, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Ok well now I see where we are gonna have a problem this is gonna be kinda ridiculous if we have to change the name of established characters every character book cause no one can make up their minds. I can see for the arrancar and the Vizard. But the Souls as well as various other media have listed these names for years and now it changes if this is an issue I say its a translation one and should at least be determined whats correct the way we do most translations. If there has been anything Viz has been suspicious with its always been the correct translation which tend to be heavily americanized translations of the actual japanese. If the research of the translations are found to be correct as the new version then thats fine. But some of these cant be accurate especially if they only lead to destabilizing the wiki every time someone comes out with a new databook or something that just calls more work.Salubri (Talk) 17:28, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
The Arrancar might actually be easier to get done than any of the other existing characters' articles, even though they themselves will be tough to completely sort out. Some of the current romanizations we have are used in the English dub of the anime (I'll confirm which ones later), so we can avoid using the "Incorrectly romanized label" unnecessarily. I'm not suggesting those pages stay the way they are, but just for clarification, we indicate what was also used in the English version of the anime (like how Ririn is "Lirin" in the dub). As for the English on some of the existing characters' pages... this is a real debatable issue, especially for "Shunsui" being translated as "Syunsui". I've been through this discussion before and have seen a case similar to this one. I think for some of these, we probably should consult our Translation Corner, since the translators, both officially (Viz Media) and unofficially, have identified the translation and pronunciation of some names to be closer to what we have over what is new on this book (though, "Iduru" isn't new; this romanization has come up before). For now, I recommend this just for Kyoraku and Kira, since it's their names that might have the most pronunciation and romanization issues right now; "Risa" would probably work anyway, since "L" doesn't exist in the Japanese language. Arrancar109 (Talk) 17:49, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
Just wanted to point out that the Japanese version of SOULs and Colourful Bleach never romanised Gotei 13 name. This is the first time the Gotei 13 names have been officially romanized by Kubo. Plus official merchandise in Japan have always had those romanization. We just ignored them in favour of Viz for names because we thought Viz could be relied upon for at least that. We were wrong. In this case its not even about translation as in the MASKED, those names are written in plain english characters. This is the first time that's been done. Every other databook those name were only given in Japanese and thus open for translation error from fan translators and Viz. This is the first time that is not the case. Kubo wrote them himself and so I would say this is the definitive english spelling for those names. Tinni (Talk) 17:52, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
We still need to check out these translations, the kanji will prove what translator is wrong on this account not to mention we have had various instances of people stating Kubo's involvement even from Kubo himself and the final prodect as well as what is stated is largely suspect. Least we forget that SoulS was originally printed in japanese when it first came out as well. Either written by kubo or not the original books are in japanese if Viz is mis translating then fine but the Kanji provides us the real romanization for those who know how to do it. We cant continue stating we take things at face value just because Kubo maybe involved. As majority of use dont read japanese hence why we rely on translators who get in wrong on occasion hence why we have a translation corner. I cant rightly protest most of the new characters but Shunsui, soifon and Kira we need to know for sure as Arrancar109 said this isnt the first time these have been brought up. Salubri (Talk) 18:03, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
- Here is a scan I found of Soifon/Sui-Feng's profile in the book as a reference for the romanization in case anyone hasn't seen the actual thing yet. The Shadow Dragon (talk) 19:18, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
- The scan here wasn't translated; it was written out, which is our problem here. Nobody is denying the legitimacy of whether it was written out in letters or not; what is happening is we're questioning how it was translated. As I pointed out earlier, this problem has come up in the past, and the way it is written out can vastly differ from the way it is actually translated. As Salubri stated, we're going to go by translating the Kanji through our translation corner, since it is the most reliable way to get the proper translation. Arrancar109 (Talk) 19:35, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
Actually, the next move at this point is to check the statement of Authorship. Kubo put one at the end of SOULs and at the end of MASKED. It is true that Kubo has often claimed to be a part of the movies and the anime fillers but the final product have always proved that he is not as involved as he claimed to be. However, Kubo is unlikely to lie or make things up in the statement of Authorship. Certainly in the statement of authorship in SOULs, Kubo makes clear his exact amount of contribution and where he has had help. My suggestion, get Adam to confirm that Kubo actually said he wrote the english names. If he says he did that in statement of authorship then it doesn't matter what we think about it. We have to go with them. Just like we did with Harribel, Starrk etc. Tinni (Talk) 19:46, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
Not the prettiest picture, but here is a collage of all the name changes that I found with the kanji listed on them so they can be verified. I can post a full size pic of any individual image if needed. ~~Ууp <talk> 19:55, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
To be honest, the real heart of the problem with the romanization of the Japanese names may actually stem from one simple fact: Which system of romanization is being used. Kubo apparently uses the Nihon-shiki system, in which "Syunsui" and "Iduru" (for example) are the correct romanizations, whereas we (as do many other non-native Japanese translators) use a largely Hepburn-based one, which would make the two names "Shunsui" and "Izuru". The pronunciations obviously remain the same in both systems. A similar case could be drawn for "Sui-Feng", though I do not know of the particular romanization systems for Chinese that are used in Japan. MarqFJA (talk) 01:10, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
Well, the Kanji/Hanzi which make up Sui-feng's name would, in Mandarin Chinese, be read (without tone marks) sui + feng. The romanization of these as "Sui-Feng" or "Sui-feng" (since the entry is in all caps, it's hard to tell what the normal capitalization would be) fits Western habits, e.g. Chow Yun-fat.
As for mixing the Hepburn- and Nihon-shiki, this happened before, with filler dude "Syunsuke"(?) Amagai. And we've known Japanese sources have romanized Kira's name as "Iduru" for a while. Since the Arrancar names are based on stylized alterations of real words, we defer to Kubo (ditto with Sui-feng's Sinitic name); but with words in a real language, such as the majority of the other character's Japanese names, I say we stick with the correct Hepburn forms we've been using. Especially given the inconsistencies of these "official" forms, e.g. the whole use of Syu alongside Shu when they're the same sound, and the fact that e.g. Hitsugaya's first name, properly Toushirou/Tōshirō, is rendered "Toushiro" here, as though the second long ou was short o. I understand similar crap happened in an earlier book, where Shiba was rendered as both "Shiba" and "Siba" though the same name.
All those *kwazy* Arrancar
This is a section I plan to steadily update (forgive my sloth) with the katakana and stuff relating mostly to the Arrancar--unless said section is deleted and I'm banished XD.
First, though, somebody please change Yammy's surname from "LLargo" to "Llargo," since it prob. shouldn't have two letters capitalized. I'd do it, but I don't want to step on toes by being a loose canon, and the templates hate me ;).
In alpha-order by surname (mostly I'll be filling in the kana not previously provided anywhere):
Loly Aivirrne (ロリ·アイヴァーン Rori Aivān)
Luppi Antenor (ルピ·アンテノール Rupi Antenōru)
Tesra Lindocruz (テスラ·リンドクルツ Tesura Rindokurutsu)
Menoly Mallia (メノリ·マリア Menori Maria)
Aisslinger Wernarr (アイスリンガー·ウェルナール Aisuringā Werunāru)
Demoura Zodd (デモウラ·ゾッド Demoura Zoddo)
- Keep in mind that there is more than one method for Japanese romanization of foreign words; "Antenōru" is a valid romanization of "Antenor", if a somewhat unusual one. MarqFJA (talk) 12:21, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's been the source of our greatest dilemma when dealing with the stylized and exotic Arrancar names. But in the picture of the Arrancar romanized names provided, Luppi's surname is given as "Antenor," with the phonetica katakana rendering thereof next to it. I provided both correctly above, so I was confused why Tensa said something was wrong.
This is pretty much useless but I had to take it out because each time I see Tesla/Tesra's surname I die of embarrassment for the poor guy. Lindocruz is like a compound of two Spanish words, so it could be separated in "Lindo" (m. Pretty/Cute. Pretty is the most accurate) and "Cruz" (f. Cross. It's a feminine word but also a male's name) so you could almost say Tesla's surname means "Pretty Cross". I know this is what we deem as Junk Trivia, but I'm throwing it here anyway. --Lia Schiffer (Talk) 07:32, August 7, 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, I pointlessly junked up the same way with what the newly-revealed "TBtP" folks' names mean, too XD. I like the ring of Lindocruz, too (even though as you, Lia, doubtless know--being a Spanish-speaker--a correcter one would probably be Lindacruz, and the katakana for cruz should be kurusu and not kurutsu). We could always say it as "fair cross" or "fine cross" :) (y'know, in our heads, if not the article XD). Adam Restling (talk) 04:08, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I'd like to get some of this under way if possible. Are you guys happy that Demora, Loly, Luppi & Menoly can be moved now? These ones are fairly straight forward compared to the others. ~~Ууp <talk> 22:07, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
- No complaints from me. MarqFJA (talk) 22:31, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see there being a problem with changing those at the moment. Seeing as they are the easiest.--Salubri (Talk) 23:48, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
- I say go for it. Arrancar109 (Talk) 23:55, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
Under the premise that this thread section deals with all the Arrancar whose official name romanizations have been revealed, can someone bring up a raw scan of the page where Yammy says his name in full? Because I'd like to double-check whether the kana gloss of the surname is "リヤルゴ" (Riyarugo) or "リャルゴ" (Ryarugo), because only the latter can correctly match up with "Llargo" under a specific quirk of Japanese romanization, which dictates that - for example - "cancer" should be romanized as "kyansaa" and not "kansaa", despite that other words like "canary" are romanized as "kanari". MarqFJA (talk) 23:36, August 12, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, that's clearly "リヤルゴ", so unless there are other Japanese romanization quirks that I don't know of, it would a bit of a stretch for Kubo to romanize Llargo as such. Then again, it's his call, right? MarqFJA (talk) 11:01, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
Well, assuming that "Llargo" is read like one would pronounce the Spanish letter sound "ll," which is similar to a "y" sound, both romanizations sound pretty close. So will the databook's romanization be used? Mohrpheus (talk) 16:12, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
Page Move: Menos Grande
Okay, so looking at the list and the page from MASKED, Unnamed Hollow (Chapter 184)A & Unnamed Hollow (Chapter 184)B are regarded as the same character and is called Menos Grande. So they should probably be merged and as far as the name for the page goes, simply calling it "Menos Grande" may be too close to Menos Grande the type of Hollow and the title of chapter 48, Menos Grande. Are we okay with "The Menos Grande" (as with The Demi Hollow) or do we keep the "(Chapter 184)" bit, or does anyone have a better suggestion? ~~Ууp <talk> 21:23, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
That's actually a good question. I can understand why someone would use "The Menos Grande", but unlike the Demi Hollow, there was more than one seen (obviously the most notable example is the Menos Grande that appeared during Ichigo and Uryu's duel), so the "Chapter 184" label might still be needed. I'm leaning towards the latter, since if we did move it to "The Menos Grande", we might have to put a redirection note on that page or the Hollow page, but then again, that wouldn't be that big of a problem. I guess I'll wait and see what a majority of our members think should happen. Arrancar109 (Talk) 21:37, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
I say call the page "The Menos Grande," as Godisme put it. Make Menos Grande a disambiguation page with three options:
1) The Gillian-class Menos (redirect to the appropriate section in the Hollow article).
2) A specific Menos Grande that ambushed a powerless Uryu Ishida.
3) Chapter *#* of the manga.
- That seems to be a good solution. I'd go with that if nobody has any objections. ~~Ууp <talk> 11:51, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I guess we are happy to go with the disambig then. Going through the recent changes for today, I noticed this page too: Ichigo Kurosaki & Uryū Ishida vs. The Menos Grande. ~~Ууp <talk> 22:50, September 19, 2010 (UTC)
Avast you Lorde
Yyp brought the bottom right passage (under Lemurs' Soul Reaper pics) to my attention, so I took a hand at translating it.
Here are the results of that trial:
Weko Mundo ni suuta sonzaisuru Arankaru no naka de, kakuzetsushita nouryoku to jitsuryoku wo motsumonotachi-----sore ga "Esupāda" de aru. Kousei menbā ha, Menosu Gurande no saijoui de aru "Vasuto Rōde" kyuu ga hotondo*. Sono jitsuryoku ni oujite, sorezore ga Aizen kara suuji wo sazukerarete iru.
Amongst the great numbers of Arrancar that exist in Hueco Mundo, possessors of exceptional ability and efficacy-----these are the "Espada." The members which comprise them are mostly* the highest rank of Menos Grande, the "Vasto Lorde" class. Depending on their efficacy each is, from Aizen, bestowed a number.
The word suuta "great number(s)" could also be read amata, but I chose in my uncertainty the reading which included the more recognizable word for "number(s)," suu.
The real crux of what this means for our understanding of the Vasto Lorde-Espada connections, and their possibly-big implications therefor, is the word I put an asterisk after: hotondo, which can mean either "mostly" OR "almost."
Even here, there *seems* an enduring thread of ambiguity. While the meaning "mostly" does seem the more likely, there remains, even here, the (slim?) possibility that most of the Espada are, as one of the posters above mentioned, almost the highest class of Menos Grande, almost Vasto Lorde, but haven't yet achieved that rank.
For those who scoff at how then, in this theory, could the class of "Adjuchas" be soooo varied as to include extremely weak "Adjuchas" like Shawlongtachi, but then up to extremely powerful "Adjuchas" like Ulquiorra and the Top 4 Espada, you need only look at the vast gulfs that seem to exist in the ostensibly-singular "captain class" between, say, Kurotsuchi and Kyouraku (Yamamoto seems clearly to be a whole other rank of his own).
As I've argued before, if we think of the tiers of the "Gillian" as the lowest depths, and the "Vasto Lorde" the highest heights, that leaves a vast sphere in-between them for the wildly-varied middle tier of the "Adjuchas."
Bottom line (in case of "tl;dr"), is that even now, I couldn't say for sure, and neither does the wording in the Japanese passage above. It can be highly suggestive that Kubo (?) meant the Espada were almost all "Vasto Lorde," but again it's just ambiguous enough. Sure seems like what was intended, though.
One thing's for sure: if almost all the Espada were "Vasto Lorde," then with their record of 0 confirmed protag kills, they should've been called "Vasto Letdown" XD. And sorry when I can't bring a definitive answer to these questions; hopefully that will change once I burrow into Kubo's brain and gain his knowledge ;). Adam Restling (talk) 05:39, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
I'd wait for a native Japanese speaker with expertise in the naunces of Japanese grammar and vocabulary to give us a proper translation of that passage. I would be greatly disappointed if it is "most of them were Vasto Lorde".
(...) then with their record of 0 confirmed protag kills, they should've been called "Vasto Letdown" XD.
You still have to give at least some of them credit for having nearly killed some of their opponents before reinforcements arrived/arrogance got the better of them/whatever divine intervention that happened. MarqFJA (talk) 23:56, August 12, 2010 (UTC)
As of Episode 284, Harribel has been confirmed to be a Vasto Lorde. Unambiguously confirmed on two separate occasions. Therefore, the above passage must be taken at face-value and no attempt should be made to hide behind possible semantic nuances from the truth. Most Esapda were indeed Vasto Lordes. Tinni (Talk) 10:29, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
- I concurr, and personally I am relieved that we finally have official evidence to back that up. My sole reservation is about the claim that the Espada's performance so far equates to the Vasto Lorde not living up to their "surpassing Captain-class Shinigami" reputation. Is there a specific thread dealing with this issue? MarqFJA (talk) 23:26, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
- This makes me wonder if the Espada even KNEW they were Vasto Lordes to begin with. They spent so much time trying to become one that they didn't realize they had already become a Vasto Lorde. This leads me to believe Grimmjow may have actually been a Vasto Lorde as well, as his size matches that of Harribel yet his power as a Hollow was clearly demonstrated to be vast indeed (far more than just a standard Hollow vs. an Adjuchas). Ultimately this makes it seem like a Starrk, Barragan, Harribel, Ulquiorra and MAYBE Grimmjow were all Vasto Lordes, in addition to the others as a possibility. Bah, it's speculation to go too far into it at this point... -.- so this is where I stop TVthePunisher (talk) 00:57, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
"Vizard" or "Visored" ?
Thanks to this databook, the issue of which spelling romanization is correct has been settled (until they change their minds again and call them "Reap Soulers" ;) XD).
On Tinni's request, I illustrate etymological/linguistic support for the official spelling "Visored" (some of which is, I believe, still cited also on the Wiki):
The word visor itself is, of course, used for something that shields the eyes or face, usually confined these days to such attachments on, say, the caps of golfers. But more archaically/rarely it can describe disguises, such as masks. Its transitive verb past tense form, as well as adjective, "visored," is also attested.
The most important thing, though, comes in the pronunciation of this, versus the pronunciation of the other (related) word, vizard, archaic for "mask":
visored [ˈväɪz.ɚd] "VEYEZ-uhrd" vs.
vizard [ˈvɪz.ɚd] "VIHZ-uhrd"
That is, the word vizard is actually pronounced exactly the same as English wizard, just with an initial v- in place of the w-. In Japanese phonetically-adapting katakana, then, vizard should prob. have been rendered ヴィザード vizādo.
However, the actual name of the group featured in BLEACH is written ヴァイザード Vaizādo, with the sequence -ai- indicating the proper pronunciation as being like English [äɪ] "eye," which is also the proper pronunciation of the -i- in the English word visored.
Thus, in summation, "Visored" is the correct spelling, and its etymology and phonology supports it well :).
What's taking so long to move the pages?
The book came out almost 1 week ago and not one page has been moved. Luppi,Loly, Menoly should have at least been moved by now seeing as they don't have major parts in the story. It baffles me as to why not one page has been changed, but we can add birthdays -_-. Thunderwitch (talk) 01:08, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
Not to mention that adding a character's birthday doesn't affect other pages, it is a minor change. Moving a page alters all other articles that are linked to it, so it needs to be done carefully. And as Godisme said, translations are being double-checked before we start doing anything. Lia Schiffer (Talk) 01:48, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
I've been wondering something for awhile...about how long will it take to translate the book in its entirity? I'm sure certain aspects are more of a prime focus right now than others, but do you think a month long project? 2 months? Seems like it couldn't be more than 4 months...and I'm curious to see if they have anything stated on Grimmjow's status (I haven't read Souls yet so I don't know if they have statuses like "deceased" and what not), as well as a few other characters.TVthePunisher (talk) 03:01, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
We aren't translating the entire book, Adam and the rest of the translation corner are working on getting the names correctly. There was mention by Adam about the books being inconsistent. I don't know if that means that some character names will not be changed or if it will just mean it will take longer to translate. He is the one to ask. There is nothing on Grimmjow's fate though I'm pretty sure--God (Pray) 03:07, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
I know that Adam is translating the whole page, but there is something that stands out on the two manga panels shown on the page. Ignoring the varying translations we have all seen and going straight to the raw kanji, both Rukia and Shunsui clearly use the kanji "王属特務" in their respective instances of speaking. Of course, those are the kanji for the King Subordinate Secret Service that we have on this site. Ignoring the fact that I possess no kanji translating skills since this situation doesn't need it, it's safe to say that Rukia and Shunsui were talking about the same group of people. I hope I'm not overstepping my ground here, but it just seemed rudimentary to me. Mohrpheus (talk) 06:21, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
While updating the articles based on MASKED, I have not changed any of the Interlanguage links on the articles. I do not know how any change to them will affect the non-English versions of Bleach Wiki, so I'm leaving them alone. Someone who knows what impact they have will have to deal with them. ~~Ууp <talk> 14:16, September 7, 2010 (UTC)