Edit Requirement[]
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I find this point to be needless since it mostly takes away from the Chat experience and given I sit in chat all day I find it has more negative impact on the community as there have been plenty of times I could have given people advice on editing here and how the community works since these days people go to Chat as first point of contact!! SunXia (Chat) 18:38,6/21/2012
- The point of the edit requirement is that it ensures that a user is trying to help the wiki rather than just chatting. If they do not want to help the wiki, they do not need to be on chat. Ten edits is very easy to get. If people want advice on how to edit, talk pages and policy pages exist for a reason. There is no need to remove the edit count requirement.--GodPray 18:42,6/21/2012
- Since people can just get the ten edits and stick around with no desire to edit further and have done so, it's moot!! SunXia (Chat) 18:48,6/21/2012
- Not really, the point has always been to encourage editing. Sure, people can just get the edit count and never edit again but at the very least, they made 10 positive contributions to the wiki. Much better than if they never made any edits at all.--GodPray 18:55,6/21/2012
- Disagree the ten edits encourages them to try to edit "anything" and then it all gets mixed up for a cause they won't be doing in the first place!! In the end it's a chat, there is nothing wrong with harmless chatting and the ten edits makes it harmful because people don't understand what they should and should not edit!! In my experience the majority mean no harm to the wiki, which is what rules are for and actually enjoy learning about it instead of being told "No go away, you're wrong" right away!! The requirement demands edits and doesn't encourage good edits thus it's point is missed!! I'd rather chat and encourage somebody with no edits than somebody with ten meaningless edits who has no intention of positively contributing to the community!! Some users like to learn before practicing and there is nothing wrong with that but this requirement sends out that message!! Now that I have more experience of chat I have gauged the types of user that come and I find the requirement moot and counter productive!! SunXia (Chat) 19:05,6/21/2012
- If their intention is to help the wiki, then they should have no trouble getting the ten edits. If their intention is purely to chat, then at least we get ten edits out of them before they can do so. Your friend Kotsu obviously has no intention on helping the wiki but we got ten edits out of him and he is now free to chat. The edit requirement also has the added benefit of letting us catch vandals. Many times, people have vandalized to get on chat after being told they needed edits. This allowed us to easily catch them and ban them quickly while we were alert to them. I truly do not see the point of removing it and I will firmly stand behind keeping it. If anything, your point is moot. We all agreed to the edit count requirement, its simple to enforce and has only benefits. It most certainly should not be removed.--GodPray 19:18,6/21/2012
- Disagree the ten edits encourages them to try to edit "anything" and then it all gets mixed up for a cause they won't be doing in the first place!! In the end it's a chat, there is nothing wrong with harmless chatting and the ten edits makes it harmful because people don't understand what they should and should not edit!! In my experience the majority mean no harm to the wiki, which is what rules are for and actually enjoy learning about it instead of being told "No go away, you're wrong" right away!! The requirement demands edits and doesn't encourage good edits thus it's point is missed!! I'd rather chat and encourage somebody with no edits than somebody with ten meaningless edits who has no intention of positively contributing to the community!! Some users like to learn before practicing and there is nothing wrong with that but this requirement sends out that message!! Now that I have more experience of chat I have gauged the types of user that come and I find the requirement moot and counter productive!! SunXia (Chat) 19:05,6/21/2012
- Not really, the point has always been to encourage editing. Sure, people can just get the edit count and never edit again but at the very least, they made 10 positive contributions to the wiki. Much better than if they never made any edits at all.--GodPray 18:55,6/21/2012
- Since people can just get the ten edits and stick around with no desire to edit further and have done so, it's moot!! SunXia (Chat) 18:48,6/21/2012
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While it is true I don't do much chatting on this wiki any longer, I have far, far more experience with chat and interacting with with users in chat than you do. I have been on chat since the first day it was released on community central over a year ago. I was a chat mod there and then an admin. I have had access to all the aspects of chat, chatted on many different wikis and I can tell you right now, the people that chat attracts are almost certainly never the types who want to contribute. Take a look at such wikis as Community Central, where the vast majority of people chatting on there just chat and do not ever help out on the forums or bother to really learn the rules. Call of Duty Wiki is the same way, their chat is filled with people who don't edit and just chat. By having our edit requirement, we at least get something out of them. So if you think you know more about chat and interacting with people on chat than I do, you are sadly mistaken.--GodPray 19:29,6/21/2012
- I never said that but I won't enforce this policy until I hear from all corners, simple as!! SunXia (Chat) 19:33,6/21/2012
I was not part of the original discussion to bring it in, but to me the edit count requirement is supposed to encourage (constructive) editing and to a lesser extent deal with the small issue with lurkers that we used to have (don't think this is an issue any longer). In that vein, before going near putting users out of chat, we should be embracing and encouraging them, helping them as needed rather than just saying get off chat without any offer of help. Point them to where they can edit and give them tips on it. Chat itself can be a useful way of doing that and faster than the talk pages. So if it were me I'd politely point out the rule and guide them through editing. Tell them where they can help (or find out what sort of editing they normally do/strengths or interests they might have to aid in getting started editing if its new to them), what to edit and what not to edit, basic rules (no spoilers, facts only etc) and gently push them towards that, give them whatever help they need (everyone has different learning rates and that should be remembered). The rule would be a last resort rather than something that is jumped to immediately. Now I'm not saying that everyone has to do this all the time, I know it can be tiring/time consuming training people up - use your discretion. But we should be exploiting chat as a means to find people interested in Bleach who are willing to contribute and converting them into contributors. ~~Ууp <talk> 12:55, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
- At present moment it is one warning then kick, not even a personal warning, asking if they need help or explaining why things are the way they are and how they can improve their contributions and then it upsets others who want to chat with them!! Of course, I have seen the rule be ignored for someone with 5 edits in there but somebody new joins and they are kicked right away and thus end up with bad feelings!! I have had people tell me they are new to Wiki and thus I've been able to help them, in the times when they haven't been kicked that is!! I know what it is to be scared to edit here in case I do something wrong so I won't punish others for the same!! Sure this user was kicked very recently with just a bot warning, nobody able to explain anything and then proceeded to make really bad edits that were intended to be good thus proving it doesn't work as it is supposed to!! I have the patience to encourage new editors and it is what I have been doing and the community on chat has been growing and they have been responding better to our rules if people just explain them!! It's not a perfect way to approach it but at least it's better than kicking somebody immediately, especially when there are other users in the channel who don't meet the requirement as well which looks bad!!
- As I said I will continue to be as welcoming to new users as possible and will not kick until they show ill will to the community!! SunXia (Chat) 15:08,6/25/2012
- The rule is still in place. So long as you are a chat mod and the rule is in place, your job is to enforce it, like it or not. And lets face it, you only want this rule gone because it is one I proposed and you are just being petty. You had no problems with it when we were friends. Now you suddenly have a problem with it. The rule is there to try and get people to edit. Having been in chat since the day it was made, I know chat encourages chatters, not editors. The same is true of this chat. I see people all the time who merely want to talk about Bleach, they dont want to actually help the site. As for the example you linked above, had you done your job and actually talked to him and explained that he needed ten edits to be there rather than making me handle it as I was getting ready to leave, then he would have known why he needed to leave. Im not opposed to explaining our rules to people or taking the time to direct them to our policy pages and explain the rule, but I firmly believe chat is worse off without the rule. You say it looks bad when we kick someone when other dont have the edits. As soon as someone enters, I check their contributions to make sure they have the right edits, so no, no one gets away with not having the proper amount of edits unless you are not doing your job when I am not on. Like I said, your friend Kotsu sits in our chat all day, he knows nothing of bleach, disrupts conversations about Bleach and has no intention on contributing to the wiki. At least we got ten edits out of him. Now he is free to chat until his heart is content. With as much work as there is to be done around here, getting ten edits is not hard. Ty got the edits very quickly. As did Wattz. I gave them no assistance, they just followed the rules that are linked everywhere on the site and did good edits. People were able to edit before chat, they can certainly learn to edit without it. Like I said earlier, when a person enters chat, they are welcomed by the bot and told of the rules. From there, if they do not automatically leave, the chat mod should tell them that they need to get ten article edits to chat. It is a price of admission. SunXia, rather than waiting for a person to be kicked to tell them about the projects as you have been doing, you should tell them before they are kicked, so they can get their edits and come back.--GodPray 06:13,6/28/2012
- Stop making this personal when you didn't even kick Rosechu for hours and kicked someone else right away without even addressing them by name, which is very rude!! Also I was the one who gave Wattz his edits since he asked me to so stop trying to pull the petty card!! I did have a problem with it before I often told you I wasn't enforcing it or warning people because I didn't like it and was only very recently made Chat Mod because I am there all the time!! I will continue to make the chat a welcoming place!! SunXia (Chat) 06:28,6/28/2012
- Why would I kick Pichu when has the edits? Sure, he doesnt have them all on one account, but he had ten on Rosechu, 3 or so on Shiny Eared Pichu and a few on Nineonefour. As I have said, your job as a chat mod is to enforce the rules. Which ones you enforce is not your call. If you do not want to enforce the rules, then you do not need to be a chat mod.--GodPray 06:31,6/28/2012
- Stop making this personal when you didn't even kick Rosechu for hours and kicked someone else right away without even addressing them by name, which is very rude!! Also I was the one who gave Wattz his edits since he asked me to so stop trying to pull the petty card!! I did have a problem with it before I often told you I wasn't enforcing it or warning people because I didn't like it and was only very recently made Chat Mod because I am there all the time!! I will continue to make the chat a welcoming place!! SunXia (Chat) 06:28,6/28/2012
- The rule is still in place. So long as you are a chat mod and the rule is in place, your job is to enforce it, like it or not. And lets face it, you only want this rule gone because it is one I proposed and you are just being petty. You had no problems with it when we were friends. Now you suddenly have a problem with it. The rule is there to try and get people to edit. Having been in chat since the day it was made, I know chat encourages chatters, not editors. The same is true of this chat. I see people all the time who merely want to talk about Bleach, they dont want to actually help the site. As for the example you linked above, had you done your job and actually talked to him and explained that he needed ten edits to be there rather than making me handle it as I was getting ready to leave, then he would have known why he needed to leave. Im not opposed to explaining our rules to people or taking the time to direct them to our policy pages and explain the rule, but I firmly believe chat is worse off without the rule. You say it looks bad when we kick someone when other dont have the edits. As soon as someone enters, I check their contributions to make sure they have the right edits, so no, no one gets away with not having the proper amount of edits unless you are not doing your job when I am not on. Like I said, your friend Kotsu sits in our chat all day, he knows nothing of bleach, disrupts conversations about Bleach and has no intention on contributing to the wiki. At least we got ten edits out of him. Now he is free to chat until his heart is content. With as much work as there is to be done around here, getting ten edits is not hard. Ty got the edits very quickly. As did Wattz. I gave them no assistance, they just followed the rules that are linked everywhere on the site and did good edits. People were able to edit before chat, they can certainly learn to edit without it. Like I said earlier, when a person enters chat, they are welcomed by the bot and told of the rules. From there, if they do not automatically leave, the chat mod should tell them that they need to get ten article edits to chat. It is a price of admission. SunXia, rather than waiting for a person to be kicked to tell them about the projects as you have been doing, you should tell them before they are kicked, so they can get their edits and come back.--GodPray 06:13,6/28/2012
I don't mean to be rude, but I disagree with the edit count. From what I see, ten edits is not "very easy" to get. There's so much of a hassle to be done just to make a single edit here. If that huge hassle doesn't happen, then one of the staff here reverts it. I know there are people out there who truly want to help, but these rules prevent them from doing so. Therefore, I see no point for a new user who wants to get on chat on a site like this. This is basically excluding newcomers who want to join. Cookieman3 (talk) 01:56, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
- If a newcomer wants to join, they can get the edits. It is not hard at all. Our policies are common sense. Don't speculate, don't vandalize, don't spam, use good grammar and follow the format of the page and simply reference what you add. Its not hard. If getting ten edits were that difficult here, I would not have amassed 15,000 of them. Ten grammar corrections are easy to get. Go fix misspellings, go break up run on sentences. Ten edits is ridiculously easy to get. The point of the ten edits is to get people contributing. This is not a social site, this is a site about creating an encyclopedia of Bleach. If you don't want to contribute and just want to talk Bleach, the fan fiction wiki has a chat as well.--GodPray 02:03,7/13/2012
- That's exactly what I mean! You're keeping out newcomers from the chat! --Cookieman3 (talk) 02:34, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
That's incredibly rude of you to say. Well first of all, you don't own this wiki, so it's not your say who can and can't chat here. Wiki chats are supposed to be open and friendly, and you're just saying, "keep out". --Cookieman3 (talk) 21:29, July 16, 2012 (UTC)
Proper Discussion of Requirements for Chat[]
Right, I wanted to originally bring this up and have a proper, professional discussion about it, sadly for reasons people here are aware of, that didn't happen!! However, that barrier has now been removed so I can now approach this with the hope of finding an actual resolution!!
To me, a wiki is for the readers as much as the editors, I mean if we were just doing this for ourselves, what would be the point!! However, I also understand the stance of it being content focused!! On chat itself I have had a variety of different instances where members of the committee, old and new, have not been as comfortable with the rules as...other now gone members!!
The common problem with new users is that the come into chat, after all Chat is not a unique feature to Wikia, many forums and sites have similar functions where people using the site have a little side discussion with others using the site!! I do believe readers are also users of the site!! But I also agree with our stance on content focused!! But yeah, they come into Chat and are told to leave and edit an article!! We have spent months now making more helpful blogs and things but not every sees the blogs or knows how to use their talk page!! We can use Chat to initiate them into Wikis and Projects, rather than just "Go do something" and then they make a more than likely...unproductive edit that they think is productive!!
So I propose an idea and I want other ideas on this in a proper discussion this time rather than being attacked by one user who couldn't accept opinions of others!! My idea is that rather than telling people to leave until they have the edits, why not allow them to stay if they are willing to try the edits while in Chat!! When people demand Why and I don't know what to edit rather than just throwing articles at them, we can look at it as a chance to help them learn how to edit!! There is nothing wrong with someone being new to Wikia, we were all new at one stage and if we are wanting more users and editors I think we should utilize Chat more rather than have it as an elite ground!! That's not to say they can stay even if they are unwilling to learn, Moderators can put like al imit say an hour (or shorter) and if they haven't shown significant attempts then they can be asked to leave as we are looking for editors!!
My personal view is that readers are also users but I am trying to find a balance here because I know that when the person made this rule, he was boasting because he was "allowed to do what he wanted with Chat" and I think the overall reputation and our cause has been hindered rather than promoted by actions and the like!! I would just like a good discussion on this because I know many notice this problem!! SunXia (Chat) 23:17,4/10/2013
- Well, I agree with you on this, Sun. Telling users to GTFO until they meet the requirements isn't how we get long-lasting and productive editors. I remember entering chat for the first time and becoming extremely disheartened when I was told I could not be there. Rather than pushing users out the door, we should ease them into editing and whatnot and not just kick them out. That's my stance on this, anyway.--Xilinoc (talk) 23:26, April 10, 2013 (UTC)
- I agree. The constructive edit requirement is also very subjective to us committee members, as we usually determine what is helpful (and we all view helpful differently). Sun's idea is best, since users who want to be in chat will try to make these article edits. We should let them in as long as they are willing to edit in a constructive way, no nonsense edits or vandalism. It also provides a more direct means of us helping them, rather than them blindly editting, only for us to undo it. That could flare tempers and lead to chat bans and even blockings. Also, having 10 edits to be in chat is kind of high in my opinion, especially when the number of good edits is decreased per revert. That makes users annoyed and impatient as to how they never seem to be able to reach that goal. If we are keeping an edit count, then we should apply it to users who aren't actively seeking our help in editing, and also lowering it to a number that still shows that they are contributing to the wiki while not frustrating them over how many trial and error attempts they have to get to the requirement. Kamikaze839 (Talk To Me!!) 7:27 PM EST 4/10/2013
- Common sense measure, support this as I have said months ago (see above discussion). Stay to get help/advise for a while, but if they still show no interest/progress after that, they should not be in chat. ~~Ууp <talk> 12:54, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
Arguing[]
In chat, people can get into arguments. However, we should have a policy for carrying on the argument for way too long or risk a ban. If the mods think the argument has gone on too long then the arguers should be warned to take it into the PMs and out of the main or just drop the issue, or else. I'm not saying I have been, but on another wiki chat I frequent to I've noticed this happen a lot. Kamikaze839 (Talk To Me!!) 4:50 EST 5/6/2013
Helping Out Requirement[]
So, for the requirement of helping out on the wiki to be in chat, can we include activity on Bleach Answers? We restarted that a little while ago, and working on their to answer questions in a constructive manner is helping the wiki in a way. Kamikaze839 (Talk To Me!!) 16:41 08/27/2013
- I would only consider this helping the wiki if they linked back to the Wiki ie promoting people to look for the answer themselves and thus promoting the Wiki!! SunXia (Chat) 21:56,8/27/2013
- I'm not against it, but more neutral than supportive (yeah I know that's not really very helpful of me). If it was agreeable to the others, I would have to insist on it being on the terms Sun mentioned. Though a lot of people on Answers are not experienced editors and might not know how to link back, that's something you guys may have to work on developing awareness of. That's really all I have to say on it right now. ~~Ууp <talk> 22:15, August 28, 2013 (UTC)