Forum:Was ulquiorra a vasto lorde? (Thread Closed)

when ulquiorra first appeared everyone thought that he was a vasto lorde i bet.I still believe it. with his first release he was able to kick vizard ichigo's butt without problem.Vizard ichigo is above an average captain so ulqiorra is far beyond an average captain so what do you think?

There is something to be said about interpretation. There really was nothing to note Ulquiorra actually being a Vasto Lorde beyond some fans hopes. The evidence used to support it is minimal and at the same time counts against him as well. Having said that there was more hype behind his power level but it turned out to be just that hype. Ichigo has the spiritual power level of a captain (which is confirmed) but he by no means is the most powerful in the series nor is he powerful enough to qualify at the level of a captain who has 50 to 100+ years of experience on him not to mention skills he can't even perform. Lets also mention that he has only learned to retain the mask for long periods of time, he doesn't know how to use the full capabilities of his hollow powers, nor how to maintain control without allowing his inner hollow to take possession. With all that in mind it says nothing about Ichigo's power compared to Ulquiorra's but says alot about how Ulquiorra can so easily beat Ichigo. In fact seeing as the only instance we have seen Ulquiorra fight seriously was verses Ichigo we can only really compare him to Ichigo and seeing as I stated before he could easily take Ichigo and then the second form kicks in and he suddenly begins to lose. Ichigo went from being barely able to keep up with Ulquiorra to totally owning him. So its not likely Ulquiorra was as powerful as he was insinuated to be with all the brooding and acting all superior, it doesn't qualify as confirming his strength. Even being one of the top espada doesn't guarentee a testament of almighty power, considering Barragan who is 2nd in power compared to Ulquiorra who is 4th in power, is the most powerful espada to date and is now dead. In the end Ulquirroa is dead and if for the sake of argument if he was a Vasto Lorde it doesn't say much about their power if they can be killed just like that.Salubri 04:53, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

-There really was nothing to note Ulquiorra actually being a Vasto Lorde beyond some fans hopes. The evidence used to support it is minimal and at the same time counts against him as well.-

Minimal? The only known picture of a Vasto Lorde is of Ulquiorra.

Yes, he's a Vasto Lorde.

- In the end Ulquirroa is dead and if for the sake of argument if he was a Vasto Lorde it doesn't say much about their power if they can be killed just like that. -

Always killed by more than a single captain (either a team or an awakened hollow-vizard), exactly as VLs are insinuated to be. The description of them was 'more battle power than a captain', not 'far beyond a captain' or 'stronger than two captains' or 'invincible' or anything like that, and both Ulquiorra and Barragan without a doubt showed beyond captain power. I'm not sure how you can say 'just' when that's how they were described in information about them all along, anything beyond that is pure speculation.

I do think what some fans place VL as is beyond what anyone in the series has described them like.ZeroSD 07:46, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

You just stated my point the speculation is fueled by fans who place the concept of Vasto Lorde beyond everything in the series in power level. First off thats not true it is a simple silhouette of any possible hollow VASTO LORDe he wasn't referring to arrancars and that is not proven at all that its ulquiorra, its pure speculation to assume so, a person can discern whatever they want from it but it doesn't prove anything along those lines. secondly where does it say anything about how a vasto lorde is killed or who it can be killed by. Its never even brought up to that level cause all that is ever stated of a vasto lorde being a arrancar is on what if terms and they are talking about the danger that would pose to soul society they do go into the detail of the vasto lorde themselves. Also like i previously stated Ulquiorra never fought a captain, yes someone with the spiritual power level of a captain but not a captain who is leagues away from ichigo. Ichigo is who he fought and as previously stated Ichigo has more weaknesses counting against him then advantages and in the end if you really want to use him he fought ulquiorra from jump with his hollow mask on and wasnt winning and then later with the new transformation he lost. If Ulquiorra was fighting ichigo beyond captain level then what level was ichigo at in this new transformation. The fact is you can only compare Ulquiorra to ichigo, the only one he actually fought, there is too many flaws in the combatant he faced for it to be an accurate understanding of his power. All that is proven is that a arrancar can be taken by a vizard far easier then a captain shinigami can take them. All that is in fact described about a Vasto Lorde is that they are extremely small in number, to the point you can count them on your fingers. They are roughly the same size as humans and that their combat capabilities are beyond that of captains. When there is something beyond a hollow silhouette and this little information then theres something to work with. Until then its speculation. Salubri 14:11, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

- First off thats not true it is a simple silhouette of any possible hollow VASTO LORDe he wasn't referring to arrancars and that is not proven at all that its ulquiorra, its pure speculation to assume so, - Pure speculation? It's a pretty unique silhouette.

-ll that is in fact described about a Vasto Lorde is that they are extremely small in number, to the point you can count them on your fingers. They are roughly the same size as humans and that their combat capabilities are beyond that of captains. When there is something beyond a hollow silhouette and this little information then theres something to work with. Until then its speculation.-

All of which is consistent with what we know of the upper Espada, and the silhouette is clearly just like Ulquiorra's headdress, which is at least one piece of solid evidence that goes past speculation.

You were saying 'there's nothing indicating he's a Vasto Lorde beyond fan hope', which isn't true. It fits the facts and we have an image. Then you said his power level was just hype and that if they can be killed 'just like that' it doesn't say much about their power, which is, again, not true, his power was beyond that of vizard Ichigo. Most captains < Vizard Ichigo < Ulquiorra. Again fitting with Vasto Lorde (he's beyond a *vizard*, who already have power of both captains and hollows), and showing extreme levels of power. His shown strength in itself is a good argument for him being a vasto lorde, and his image just adds to that. It's highly highly probable he's a vasto lorde and there's nothing going against it.

Please stop saying there's nothing to go on whenever this comes up, there's a fair amount of evidence which all lines up.ZeroSD 17:36, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

Your not even basing it on material of the series. yea its unique to the same fact that silhouette of the adjuhcas is unique. You have yet to admit its not a fact or even likely a fact more then you want it to be. Also all of what we know of a hollow vasto lorde is not consistent of what we know of espada the vast majority had humanoid form just like that of some lesser arrancar so that proves nothing. That proves what little we know of those level hollow nothing of the arrancar especially vasto lorde. Clearly look again unless there is something that states it was him and its the same its all your wishing it to be, its not even in the same context or chapter so thats pointless considering when hitsugaya mentioned we didn't even know that arrancar had a release. It all fits the facts that you want to believe but there are no facts that are true set in stone facts. Your getting to the point where your making up stuff. Vizards of course are above most captains with arrancar seemingly of equal level as them spiritual power wise. When in what world is Ulquiorra beyond anyone, you didnt even read what i previously wrote he is beyond Ichigo until ichigo went full power on him and then his second release meant nothing. Vizard still beat out an espada (two times now, not to mention all the others dead) so who is beyond who. His shown strength is a good argument of his power being greater then ichigo's (and only ichigo as he is the only one he fought) at the time and it was later proven not so great. There is alot going against it more so then you can argue with. Like i stated its pointless hes dead and even if he was he fell pretty easy for someone so powerful which only proves a vizard is more powerful then an espada level vasto lorde arrancar. Which way do you want it either he wasn't and was a powerful adjhucas who died or he was and was a powerful vasto lorde he who died. Either way he was defeated as was one two levels higher then him as well as more powerful then him with no second release. Im not convinced he was until some manga chapter says otherwise, its just opinion and speculation and not even that convincing of one just cause he is believed by some to be so powerful, if he was so powerful why is he dead? Is it so horrible not to have yet witnessed the power of a vasto lorde arrancar yet. Have patience and wait till some actual confirmation instead of stating things as fact. We know really nothing specific of vasto lorde or their full capabilities or what they look like for real. Not to mention its doubtful something so powerful would be subservient to aizen.Salubri 18:16, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

I would have agree with Salubri on this. While I understand some fan points of view. A silhouette and some info on the different types of hollows doesn't make a fact. Ulquiorra is powerful in his own right but he is also the 4th. Yes he has high speed regeneration, powerful hierro and a second release but in the end he proved no match to the power to this new transformation. Salubri also is correct in the details of Ichigo which in turn makes the justification of classifying Ulquiorra as a vasto lorde unlikely. Ichigo is good and powerful but not in the least as powerful as to be considered a captain except in relation to his spiritual strength and he has no real understanding of the full capabilities of his hollow powers. That being said it would seem Ulquiorra wasn't fighting some high powered captain-level vizard (except in relation to this transformation which shows Ulquiorra as in over his head). Now if he fought Shinji or one of the others then you would have a case to make, but he only fought Ichigo so you realistically can only compare him to Ichigo's power which while it has potential has alot to make up for in the next 50 to 100 years on both sides of the spectrum (shingiami and hollow).Halibel101 18:48, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

Yes a Vasto Lorde has greater combat capabilities then a captain. When has Ulquiorra fought a captain (I mean an actual full blown captain whose been around for 50+ years who knows kido and has years of swordsmanship and bankai experience). The simple answer is he hasn't he has fought Ichigo and like the previous people state thats not much to say about Ulquiorra's power. As far as the silhouette goes that can really be any hollow, some look alike so its probable to be anyone. I find it easy to fit things to match up to my point of view but It doesn't make it a fact. While I can say its probable to look like him thats as far as i can go. Other then that we need actual confirmation that he was one and not picking info not directly about him or even the arrancar (seeing as hitsugaya was specifically talking about hollows). Also whens the last time a captain has fought a vasto lorde let alone seen one, it would stand to reason much like humans, shinigami and hollow and arrancars not all vasto lorde are equal in power, they must have weaknesses and varying strengths for all we know a captain can take them depending who it is and what their capabilities are. In any case Ulquiorra is dead and was totally owned in the end i think its safe to say that his skill while good may have been exaggerated except in the case of ichgio which in the end proved it was exaggerated then too. All we have to go on his fight with Ichigo so if anything prior to the transformation he was more powerful then Ichigo, we cant claim that for anyone else cause we dont know. Same as we dont know for a fact that he is any higher then adjuhcas. I say the same as the previous guy wait for it.Instigator545 19:00, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

-Your not even basing it on material of the series.- What do you mean by that? It's in both the manga and anime, then backed up by more information like the anime's arrancar encyclopedia showing the Espada when talking about vasto lordes.

-yea its unique to the same fact that silhouette of the adjuhcas is unique. You have yet to admit its not a fact or even likely a fact more then you want it to be.- How do you figure? There's a silhouette that not only fits someone pretty much exactly, but it only fits the one character. That's incredibly likely at the least, if not outright confirmation.

- His shown strength is a good argument of his power being greater then ichigo's (and only ichigo as he is the only one he fought) at the time and it was later proven not so great.- What do you mean 'not so great'? He was super powerful start to finish, Ichigo was just stronger still. That's not an argument against him being a Vasto Lorde.

I really don't know where you're going with this strength argument, it seems to me that you're saying 'because he was beaten he's not a VL', which doesn't follow at all. That's not an argument against him being a vasto lorde at all, not if he lost to something even more powerful than a VL.

-Which way do you want it either he wasn't and was a powerful adjhucas who died or he was and was a powerful vasto lorde he who died.-

He was a vasto lorde, as shown by the picture, who died.

Probably low for a vasto lorde, there is a variety of strength within a particular level, but still he was as powerful as we were told VLs were supposed to be.

-Either way he was defeated as was one two levels higher then him as well as more powerful then him with no second release. Im not convinced he was until some manga chapter says otherwise, its just opinion and speculation and not even that convincing of one just cause he is believed by some to be so powerful, if he was so powerful why is he dead?-

Because he fought someone even *more* powerful, of course. What is so hard about that? He was a vasto lorde who died by someone stronger, that's entirely fitting with the facts.

It's not speculation, it's based on evidence. We have a picture of him as a vasto lorde. His strength is consistent with a vasto lorde. Then he died.

-All we have to go on his fight with Ichigo so if anything prior to the transformation he was more powerful then Ichigo, we cant claim that for anyone else cause we dont know.-

You're acting like we don't know how strong Ichigo is. We know masked Ichigo is stronger than a captain as he beat Byakuya with it. We know Ulquiorra is stronger than masked Ichigo, noticeably so in his releases (as he actually 'killed' him). It wasn't even close; Ulquiorra flat out overwhelmed someone who fights evenly with Byakuya and Zaraki two of the stronger captains. Therefore, Ulquiorra is stronger than a captain. It's a simple logic chain.

-Same as we dont know for a fact that he is any higher then adjuhcas. - We know we have a picture of him labelled 'Vasto Lorde'.

It is incredibly probable that Ulquiorra was a Vasto Lorde. We have evidence that suggests he was, and no evidence that suggests he wasn't.

That's the flaw with your argument; you don't have anything indicating he's an adjuchas, you're just assuming it and discounting the stuff that rather openly points to him being one.ZeroSD 09:29, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand logic that's saying "he has been defeated so he cannot be Vasto Lorde". Ergroilnin 10:29, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Im taking issue with how you keeping stating this stuff as if its a fact not once is it said or stated that anything your stating is true hence why its not featured on his page and if it was it would be removed for being false information. He is a vasto lorde in your opinion alone that is not a fact. I also see why your wrong first off Ichigo didn't defeat Byakuya with his mask, im not sure where that came from also that fight was a draw and byakuya gave him the win. The same issue with zaraki. Thats not a chain of logic cause Ichigo couldnt beat nnorita who was a step down from Ulquiorra when Kenpachi did. Ichigo has the power level of a captain but not the combat skill of one, you could say the same of renji or ikkaku's combat skill it doesn't mean they are the same as a captain it takees more then having bankai to beat a captain which is stated many times (where not talking of a draw either, read both fights). unless you can give something some where in the manga that says the exact words that Ulquiorra was a vasto lorde otherwise you cant call it a fact only your opinion from the information. You cant say he is more powerful then ichigo and then say ichigo is more powerful then him either one is true or the other is. where are these pages referenced that prove it from kubo's hands, where are these creator based pics and pages that state this cause ive never seen them.Salubri 11:05, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

I would agree I want to see these pages where it says this cause I dont think it was ever said.TragicWarrior 11:10, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

There is alot of fan speculation on this and I have yet to see something from Kubo stating beyond all doubt that this is a fact. From what I have read, the guy pushing this is doing alot of hopeful fan speculation and stating it as if it was actually written fact, not realizing that its opinion and theres those that dont believe that information can logically mean Ulquiorra is but the exact opposite. The argument of Ichigo's power level and skill alone warrents the question of his supposed power level. Also Byakuya wasn't defeated by Ichigo with his mask and both that battle and Zaraki's ended in what amounts to a draw with them giving ichigo the win. That means he can just barely stand up to well trained and powerful captains. Also that is true knowing what ichigo is capable of as a shinigami they specifically said captians when referring to a vasto lordes combat ability. Last checked ichigo wasn't a captain not to mention where does it say he is stronger then a captain ive yet to see that fight where he fights one of the gotei 13 and totally destroys him so thats not a true statement. But i suppose we all can pick and choose as well as change what information we want to use to justify are position. I also would like to see this information that states he is a vasto lorde.YesMonarch 11:20, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Let me put it this way: It's not 100% confirmed, nothing is until it's outright stated, but there is evidence and it points in one direct. It is highly probable and entirely consistent with what we know that he's a Vasto Lorde.

There are two possibilities, Adjuchas or Vasto Lorde. Of the two, Vasto Lorde has more evidence.

Just because something isn't stated does not mean there is not evidence. I wouldn't put it in a page article, but here in the discussion form? Yea, it's pretty safe to say he's a Vasto Lorde. A few of you are saying he's not a vasto lorde and is an adjuchas, which has less evidence than saying he is. ZeroSD 13:27, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Then point would be you would have to know alot about a vasto lorde to know that which no one can claim its easy for you to portray your point of view that way but that make it evidence what do you know of a powerful adjuhcas you really dont know much but you do see them for a fact and its stated that if anything besides aaronario they are from adjuchas, anything else is assumption and you have now confirmed that its not a fact so i dont know why you were stating it was as if it was true regardless of this being a discussion.Salubri 13:42, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Ok, your language was really twisted there, but I'll try and work it out.

All that was said about Aaroneiro is that he was the only gillian and that the others thus are adjuchas *or* Vasto Lorde.

You're acting as if lack of definite statement means it's proof he's an adjuchas. Which it's not. That's an unproven assumption, what evidence supports that?

There is absolutely no statement he is an adjuchas.

On the pro side, we have this: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/197/16/

So, we have pro evidence. We have no statement of him being an adjuchas. Him being an adjuchas is absolutely not confirmed. No one in the manga has said he's an adjuchas.

You can't properly toss out the likelyhood that he's a Vasto Lorde and say that he's an adjuchas when him being an adjuchas has even less evidence, none to my knowledge. 'Not absolutely true equals false' is a statement that tosses adjuchas out too.

You're looking at Vasto Lorde and saying "Is it absolutely true? No? Then it must be false!", which is not how it works. I'm looking at which one has more evidence. ZeroSD 13:58, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Thats where your wrong no one ever said that the espada we see are vasto lorde nowhere is it even mentioned or hinted at what they were as hollow besides adjhucas or gillian. Ive seen that before unless you can prove thats ulquiorra without a doubt its not him especially considering that part of the conversation was referring to a vasto lorde hollow and not an arrancar. Thats evidence for you it doesnt prove anything to me or even others apparently. Yes lack of proof usually means its not proven. Its unproven assumption to assume something thats not supported, now if it was an actual picture then you might have a case but a shilouette no. We also dont have statement of him being a vasto lorde. and a shilouette used not even in the context of him or even arrancar isn't proof. Having said that i can admit neither one has any evidence to back it unless you can prove without the shadow of a doubt that the conversation hitsugaya had was referring to him and thats that shilouette was his. Not maybe or possibly or they kinda look a like, cause all zanpakuto kind of look like doesnt make it true. That shilouette is nothing more then proof of the body proportions of a vasto lorde, not an arrancar, espada, or ulquiorra. People can talk about it till there blue in the face but its not true until its proven with something substantial. You can tell me multiple times about assumptions and yet have not said that your making one and admitting that the other position is just as likely cause there is no way of knowing. You have ignored all the logical material based arguments against it and not just from me, cause you want him to be one. So Ill leave you to it cause its pointless conversation.Salubri 14:48, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Just to butt in a bit, someone said the example Vasto Lorde silhouette was "unique." I'd just like to say that we don't know that. For all we know, most Vasto Lorde look generally like that. And, since it wasn't directly attributed to Ulquiorra at any point, you can't say it's his silhouette. (The fact that Hitsugaya explained what the Hollows are after Ichigo met Ulquiorra is not proof that it is him. It's simply when he did the explaining.) I concur that there's equally a lack of proof that he was merely an Adjuchas, but since he was either an Adjuchas or a Vasto Lorde, and there's no proof of either, it seems better to be a bit conservative in your assumptions.Twocents 15:01, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

I just wanna point out that in Anime (I know that it's not that important compared to manga...) after Rukia told Ashido (shinigami in menos forest) that she and others are going to Las Noches, he told her that there are Vasto Lorde menos. Just a thought. Ergroilnin 16:47, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

-Thats where your wrong no one ever said that the espada we see are vasto lorde nowhere is it even mentioned or hinted at what they were as hollow besides adjhucas or gillian.-

Gin while doing the arrancar encyclopedia definitely did, it panned over the espada while talking about Vasto Lorde. Also we know Aizen was looking for vasto lorde for his espada in the past.

-Ive seen that before unless you can prove thats ulquiorra without a doubt its not him especially considering that part of the conversation was referring to a vasto lorde hollow and not an arrancar. -

That's what's called a 'confirmation bias'. Nothing has said the high ranking espada are adjuchas either.

- Just to butt in a bit, someone said the example Vasto Lorde silhouette was "unique." I'd just like to say that we don't know that. For all we know, most Vasto Lorde look generally like that. And, since it wasn't directly attributed to Ulquiorra at any point, you can't say it's his silhouette. (The fact that Hitsugaya explained what the Hollows are after Ichigo met Ulquiorra is not proof that it is him. It's simply when he did the explaining.) I concur that there's equally a lack of proof that he was merely an Adjuchas, but since he was either an Adjuchas or a Vasto Lorde, and there's no proof of either, it seems better to be a bit conservative in your assumptions.-

Eh, it seems a bit of a stretch to say that all Vasto Lorde just happen to have headdresses that look like Ulquiorra's when all other hollows have unique designs, and his high power seems to put him in line with VL's description. This is why I say "probable Vasto Lorde", since you need to make some assumptions (like that VLs just happen to look like Ulquiorra) to get some facts back to a neutral position. Call it 80%. ZeroSD 18:57, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

I didn't say that all Vasto Lorde just happen to look like Ulquiorra. What I said, word for word, was "For all we know, most Vasto Lorde generally look like that." "Most" as in not all, and generally as in they may look sort of like that, kind of like how the Gillians' masks all sort of look like each other. Without seeing any other Vasto Lordes, we have no way of knowing if it's pretty typical for their silhouettes to generally look like that or not. That is nowhere close to your interpretation of my statement. Thus, if you want to have a discussion, you can't simply take what someone said and completely change it so the meaning of their statement is completely misconstrued. No wonder so many people on this page are unhappy about with discussing this with you. Twocents 21:54, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Kubo has not definitely stated the Menos status of ANY of the Espada except for the Gillian. We do know that they are either Adjuchas or Vasto Lorde, but since Kubo has not said, and he is god in these matters, we do not know.

Shame on you ZeroSD, after seeing Baraggan Luisenbarn as a Hollow you still thought Ulquiorra was a Vasto Lorde? First of all, Vasto Lorde have the shape of a human, so when they release as an arrancar they should have a human's shape and height as well. Now Ulquiorra had wings and horns, how is that human? He was most likely a bat-themed Hollow before becoming an Arrancar. The best cases of Vasto Lorde are Starrk, Barragan and Harribel Grimmjow2 13:08, December 23, 2009 (UTC)