Forum:Shinigami Character Discussion

Just because a whole bunch of discussion have popped up about various shinigami characters, I am merging. Just to be clearly, I am only merging topics that wasn't about much/were extremely small and not likely to be much longer. I did not merge character threads that were long/had a lot of discussion happening. Tinni 10:05, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Is Nanao a Genius ?
All three geniuses we know, Toshiro, GIn and Kaien are young when they became a shinigami. So is Nanao, as seen on the TBTP series, although she did not hold any position back then. Will she be considered a genius because she became a shinigami at a very young age?--Agate genbu 09:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't call her a genius until someone in the series actually calls her that. However from what we know about her we can considered her highly intellectual. Also the ones mention are not the only ones to be Shinigami from young age take Akon, and the other lil' girl from the SRDI. WhiteStrike 18:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Nemu Kurotsuchi "Real" Shinigami?
Since nobody's brought it up, I thought this could possibly be compared to a different dilemma: Mayuri and Nemu. Is Nemu really a shinigami? Is she really a vice-captain, or just an extension of Mayuri filling both seats of his squad? Heck, with some of the fan speculation out there regarding Yachiru's origins coupled with Zaraki's lack of being able to get in touch with his sword, that pair could be another example. Tyciol 04:03, November 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * ... Nemu is a shinigami as she has spirit power that manifests itself in the form of a zanpakuto (yes! she has one). Her being a vice-captain is not in doubt as even if she were an extension of Mayuri, she would still have the rank of a vice-captain as is acknowledged by all and sundry. Kenpachi remembers his existence before Yachiru and Yachiru remembers a time before Kenpachi. As such, they more most defintly two different people who adopted each other with Kenpachi giving Yachiru the name of a person he admired. A person he met before Yachiru. Yachiru is not Kenpachi's "zanpakuto". She is a real person and if she wasn't, the other shinigami would know. After six years of seeing the Shinigami and Yachiru, who plays a fairly large role in the Colourful Bleach chapters, you would think someone might mention something. As fan speculations go, those are some of the most baseless crack theories I have ever seen. Honestly, Kubo does something different and suddenly fans are applying it to everyone. Tinni 05:25, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

i really confuse about this....nemu, nanao, and yachiru.... can anyone tell me what shikai do they have? cuz till now.... i've never seen them shown their shikai, i want to know them in fight........at least see their shikai, cuz they are my fovourite characters.....


 * None of those three have been revealed yet. Don't worry, they will be eventually. It's just a matter of when the plot gets around to it. -- Yyp  (Talk)  14:04, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Is It Just Me Or Does Nemu's Relationship With Her Father/Creator Seem Very Twisted? SocietyX420

Nemu suffering from stockholm syndrome
Does Nemu suffer from stockholm syndrome? She is beaten by Mayuri, emotionally tormented, and experimented on, yet she still has some sort of adoration for him. Do you think this is a possibility?

The term stockholm syndrome specifically refers to the case where a person is kidnapped by strangers and kept in captivity for so long that they start to develop a bond with their captures and start to identify themselves as being part of the captures group or something similar. It would not apply Nemu as Mayuri is her father and she grew-up with him. Her reactions are not very different from many abused children who still love their parents despite being abused. You can say that she has been conditioned to take abuse from Mayuri and not be appreciated at all for stuff she does but that's about it. Tinni  (Talk)  03:46, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Tinni, its not stockholm syndrome, as Tinni explained, its more of a disfunctional family sort of thing. I'm kinda hoping that the shinigami womens association find out about Mayuris treatment of nemu, if they dont know already, and beat mayuri up, or at least chase him with something, that would make a hilarious scene.Lazychubb 06:26, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Captain of 3rd Squad?
I recall a conversation between captains in the TBtP arc stating that Rose had only recently become 3rd division captain. Shunsui states that the previous Captain decided to "kick back and smell the roses". Could this be reffering to Isshin? I fail to see any other places he could fit, where he would know Uruhara, the existence of Arrancar and also know a Quincy. This is of course assuming he was indeed a captain, i realise it's not definitive but it's very heavily implied. Nick D Wolfwood 15:42, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

The above was moved from Isshin's talk page. Once again, I would like to remind all and sundary that talk pages are not for airing speculation, theories or for having general conversation. That's what forums are for. Tinni 15:52, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Shiba Kaien
I've tried finding a forum regarding Kaien Shiba but didn't found any (please direct me to it if it exists). I just thought of this. Kaien Shiba was a prodigy, and has been a lieutenant at least from TBTP to until Rukia has joined the Gotei 13. My question is when did Gin and Tousen became captains? If they became captain before Rukia joined the 13th squad, I find it odd that Kaien was not promoted to be a captain. Is he just so humble and was contended to be Ukitake's lieutenant? What are your other theories?--WinterFox 07:54, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Gin became captain the same time Byakuya did. Which was shortly before Rukia joined the Gotei 13 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/05/). Approximately 40 years before the start of the main storyline. The latter is based on Renji's comment that he and Rukia seperated about 40 years ago, when she was adopted in the Kuchiki family. That is also about the time the Kuchiki family pulled some strings and got Rukia into the Gotei 13 before she completed her course in the Shinigami Academy and exempted her from sitting the entrance exam.
 * Clearly Shiba Kaien never achieved bankai. Not everybody does prodigy or not. Case in point, Renji, Kira and Hinamori were all considered exceptional students and as students Kira and Hinamori were better then Renji in everything but swordsmanship. They even became vice-captains before Renji. But Renji achieved bankai while as far as we know neither Kira nor Hinamori have bankai. In addition, clearly some zanpakutos are harder to achieve bankai with then others. Neither Rangiku nor Yumichika have bankai and when they started training to achieve it because of the arrancar they complained about how hard it is to control their zanpakuto. So I don't see what the great mystery is. It has been made pretty clear that Bankai is something special and that is why under normal circumstances, out of 3000 shinigami in the Gotei 13 only 13 shinigami are usually capable of it. Tinni 09:53, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * I understand your point Tinni. But I read somewhere that Kaien was also a child prodigy, much like Gin. I just find it odd that his skill didn't progress as what would expect of a child prodigy especially coming from a noble clan.--WinterFox 03:36, November 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * "child" prodigy? Kaien was a prodigy, having completed the six year shinigami academy course in two years. But a "child"? I can't agree with that. We don't know what Kaien looked like when he graduated. I.e. he might not have been a child. Also, I still don't see what you are getting at. Byakuya himself said that even amongst the noble, only a shinigami attains bankai every few generations. Meaning, not all nobles do achieve bankai. In addition, assuming he had the ability, Kaien would still have to actively train to achieve bankai. Perhaps he simply had no desire to do so. He is one of the few shinigami we know of who had a wife and a living family. Perhaps he simply had other priorities in his life other then achieving bankai. Whether they are capable of it or not, not everybody is interested in climbing the corporate ladder so to speak. Due to Ukitake's illness, Kaien was effectively running the 13th Division. In addition, during Kaien's time, Soul Society was not aware of facing any greater threat then what they usually face. Which is different from now, being in a state of open war has prompted both Yumichika and Rangiku to start bankai training. So Kaien had no motivation to achieve bankai. He already had all the powers of being a captain without having any of the responsibility, seeing as Ukitake would be the one who would have to answer for any screw-ups. He didn't know of any enemies he had to have bankai to fight. Apart from an increase in salary, and Kaien might well have been earning more then the average lieutenant given his increase responsibility, what possible desire could Kaien have to train for and achieve bankai? Tinni 04:04, November 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * i see your point. That's why i asked what could be the reason(s) he was not/has not been promoted to be a captain. Also i didn't mean that he must achieved bankai since he is noble. I just thought that he who has more experienced than Gin would also be as strong, if not stronger, than Gin is. but then again, I agree with what you stated that "not everybody is interested in climbing the corporate ladder." I can accept this reason... =) --WinterFox 06:13, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Abarai Renji
Renji has been severely weakened now... for a character that was really popular, shouldnt he have more powers? his bankai has been very boring as of late....

1) Sign your signature, 2) No Renji shouldn't have an upgrade. Continuous upgrade to power is what DBZ is about. In Bleach most characters have to train. Renji will undoubtedly get stronger if he takes the time to train but he doesn't have that luxury right now. Perhaps it is time for Renji to exit stage left. Perhaps he will. After all, the field of characters in Bleach is pretty crowded and I have no doubt it will be thinning one way or another very soon. Tinni 10:05, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Shikai
Mhmm can someone please tell me why his spirits sword doesn't resemble anything likes sasakibes shikai form?

just guessing but maybe since he likes western culture so much he had his shikai changed.Soul reaper magnum 12:37, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Bankai
i think sasakibe has achieved a bankai. he seems to be on par with a captain.

How do you figure that given hasn't even fought yet in the manga and the one time he tried, he got taken out by Ichigo in a second. Tinni 10:45, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

I know its just anime.......but didnt Soifon say that his zanpakuto spirit was of captain class power? Unus7484 02:54, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Vice-"captains" are still "captain-class". It is fairly well established that Vice-captains are considered something else and do in fact have to sit special exams and such to gain their rank. The difference in power between a Vice-captain and a third seat is considerable. Therefore "captain-class" can include vice-captains. It depends on how strictly you apply the term. Soifon was clearly using the term broadly. Tinni 03:05, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Ginrei_Kuchiki
The following was moved from Ginrei Kuchiki's talk page. Tinni  (Talk)  12:08, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Is it really Ginrei?
Okay, the character in the 98th chapter of the manga (32 anime) strongly resembles Ginrei, but there are several diffrences so I don't know if it's okay to merge info of these two characters into one article. First, he wore glasses and Ginrei didn't. Second thing, Ginrei had his nobility visible in his posture and this man's posture is rather a posture of a servant than a noble (for example Yamamoto's posture didn't change during this 100 year period). And finally, he refers Byakuya as "sama" the way servants do in the omake chapter and Ginrei in the TBTP didn't (although Hisana did call him "Bayakuya-Sama" despite being his wife).

These are of course minor things because they could be easily explained, but important as for now becuase it remains unconfirmed. But I strongly hope You're right.

I suggest the following : It would be awesome if somebody who knows japonesse, could chceck the name of the Seiyuu of the character in 32 episode end credits, then we should check Ginrei's seiyuu in the TBTP arc (if it's going to be animated of course). If the seiyuu would be the same it would be obvious. As for now we should separate those two, or at least mark it as unconfirmed. Nekosama

Soooo, since TBTP got animated we can say that the character which thought to be Ginrei is not him. Why? Because they look entiriely diffrent in the anime, and they are voiced by two diffrent people. Too bad ;/ See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iI93nrVLEi8&feature=related to get my point Nekosama

This is old but just to clarify, the white haired guy being referred to by the post above is Byakuya's servant. Not Genrei Kuchiki. Said servant also makes multiple appearances in Colourful Bleach. He isn't tall enough to be Genrei and wears glasses. Tinni  (Talk)  12:08, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Theory about his age and why he wasn't in kyorakus list of the old captains
This is just a theorie, but i want to hear your opininion.

If you look on Ginrei, he looks as old as yamamoto, but he wasn't in kyorakus list of the old captains. So i think, that he might have been a captain even before ukitake and kyoraku become captains and retired after his son, byakuyas father, became head of the kuchiki clan and so the new captain of the sixt. after byakuyas father died, he retook his positions.

Its most likely that just because Ginrei is old doesn't mean he has to be one of the older Captains. Ukitake and Kyoraku where talking about the first group of captains which include themselves with Unohana and Yamamoto being older. So its more likely that Soul Society didn't existence with the Gotei 13 in the form that its currently in before Yamamoto made the Shinigami academy. There was most likely a lesser number of captains with less formalized Captains and squads which increased with the onset of more people born into the real world and thus more spirits in soul society. In any case being that he is Byakuya's grandfather its more likely that he was head of his family and his son and daughter in law died before they could take any position of authority in the house leaving Byakuya the only living heir and he maintained that position. Its also likely he didnt become a captain until later on in his life. (Chojiro looks significantly older then all the other captains or lieutenants and he's only a lieutenant himself).Salubri 03:35, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

This is old, but my two cents: Kyoraku was reciting the list of people who have been captains for more then a 100 years. The six division seems to be closely aligned with the Kuchiki family. Could be that it was the Kuchiki family's personal army and at some point before TBPA it got amalgamated into the Gotei 13. We aren't sure what the structure of the Soul Society was in the past, so unless Kubo releases the "History of the Gotei 13", we can only guess. Tinni  (Talk)  12:08, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

My 2 cents; I notice he wears gloves like the Onmitskudo commanders do (Soifon definately wears them, and I think Yoruichi did too). I think it's possible he was formally ranking member of the OK and became a captain later, like Yoruichi; it would also help explain their familiarity with eachother. Plus his arrival with the OK to arrest Koga. Any thoughts? TomServo101 12:44, December 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Too much from too little. The fact that both Yoruichi and Genrei are nobles of the great families is probably enough to explain their familiarity with each other. We don't know much about the day to day life of Seireitei, let alone the nobles. It's very likely the four great noble houses all know each other and their members very, very well. Of course the Shihoin and the Kuchiki's could just be special friends with ancient alliances and the likes but I don't think Genrei was Onmitskido. I believe it was made pretty clear that's usually the domain of the Shihoins and lesser noble clans that are aligned to them like the Fons. I still favour my story of what was once the personal army of the Kuchikis got turned into Division Six at some point and the then head of the Kuchiki family became the captain. Of course, the other, more mundane, explanation could just be that Kyoraku and Ukitake both forgot about Genrei just like Kyoraku initially did Unohana. ^.^ Tinni   (Talk)  13:02, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

his headpiece
i think is under his hair see how the shape of his hair resembles it

There is no reason Genrei wouldn't just tell Byakuya that. Tinni  (Talk)  12:08, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

Ginrei Kuchiki and bankai?
I was just wondering, Ginrei Kuchiki was captain of 6th division 100 years ago, as Byakuya is now. But Byakuya said that he was the only one in many generations (don't remember how many) that had potential for bankai. Now, as far as I know you can't be a captain unless you know how to do bankai or you have killed the last captain (which I don't believe a noble would have done). Now was Ginrei just a "weak" captain who couldn't perform bankai and got the job just because of his family? Akeki 11:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It is fairly simple. What Byakuya said was "that among the four noble houses of Soul Society, only one person in several generations will be born with the spiritual power necessary to achieve it". Now its more then likely that his grandfather knew Bankai (as he was a captain), but its doubtful we'll ever truly know. Now maybe Byakuya was just being boastful or misrepresenting his skills, as it wouldn't be the first time he is proven wrong (least we forget he assumed Ichigo could have never learned Bankai even if he had the time and training). So its most likely that his claim isn't always the norm. For instance Kaien Shiba was a child prodigy and was even older then Gin Ichimaru and he only ever got up to his Shikai, Gin who was a child prodigy himself a bit more skilled the kaien eventually did learn bankai. The point being when Kaien was alive the Shiba family was the 5th noble family. Byakuya and Ginrei maybe exceptions to the rule. So just as there could only be one several generations apart sometimes its more then likely that a few generations and even one or two is enough. Side note though the biggest problem amongst fans especially on this site is trying to determine if someone is weak in comparison to others. I dont know i guess people watch to much dragonball and assume that power levels are involved. Where in bleach you can only judge weakness and strength based on the individual that are in battle against each other at the time. (i.e. Ichigo fought and defeated grimmjaw but that only means he was more powerful then Grimmjaw, could he be more powerful then Espada lower then Grimmjaw possibly but considering their abilities and skills he probably would have lost regardless, therefore you cant say he is so much weak as in comparison to a variety of circumstances). The fact is to be a captain of the Gotei 13 you would have to be more powerful they any other shinigami to be one of the 13 elite captains. There really is no such thing as weak amongst them. As every individual had strengths and weaknesses. But there are only 13 out of 1000's who stand above all others. Salubri 12:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, being able to use bankai is meant to be a requirement for becoming a captain, with the exception of Kenpachi, right? In that case, maybe Byakuya meant that it's rare for members of the noble houses to be able to achieve it easily, but conceivably anyone with high enough spiritual pressure is capable of learning? UnspeakableVillain 10:26, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Zanpakuto's Ability Negated by Hakuda?
If his Zanpakuto's ability makes whatever it strikes twice as heavier, couldn't his opponent just discard their weapon and rely on Hand-to-hand- combat? Gold3263301 18:42, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

That pretty much goes without saying, so it's not anything that could be added to the article. what you say it pretty much true, but engaging Wabisuke with hand-to-hand combat would put you at risk to having your own body made heavier, which apparently has no remedy. Mohrpheus 18:57, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention most Shinigami wouldn't be skilled in hand to hand enough to defeat a sword weilding opponent. Then the above mentioned heaviness and you're looking at out of the frying pan and into the guillotine :D --Licourtrix 22:51, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

I am fairly certain even Soifon couldn't win against Kira with Hakuda given that Kira's zanpakuto can make bodies heavy as well. As long as Kira manages to block her arms with his sword a few times or just hits her a few times with his zanpakuto, Soifon drops to the ground like a stone. The key to defeating Kira is to stay away from him and use long range attacks or have a zanpakuto like Matsumoto and Byakuya :D Tinni   (Talk)  23:26, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

I agree and disagree with you on this one Tinni...I think of all the Hakuda specialists Soifon and Yoruichi are the only two probable choices to beat Kira. Their speed is almost unmatched in the Seireitei, not sure if Kira could keep up to block their attacks to block them. Now someone like Kensei who uses power to overwhelm his opponents, I think he'd be almost certain to lose. Given Wabisuke's ability however, they would obviously have to end the fight quick, and in Bleach...that never happens...I do agree that Kido type characters are a great advantage against Kira...however, he is relatively well skilled in Kido as well, he might have a binding spell or two up his sleeve that he might be able to use until he can get close enough and use Wabisuke. Orionradar 01:01, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Yoruichi would be too fast for Kira. Soifon... well given that Kira has never shown particularly impressive agility, yes she should be able to pummel Kira before he knows what's happening. But in that way she could use her zanpakuto and get two hits on him and assassinate him. So what we are actually saying, I think, is that high level of hoho is likely to defeat Kira as well because if he can't block or get a hit on you, Wabisuke is useless. But as you rightly pointed out, Kira is very good with kido himself and isn't exactly a slug and battles are almost as much about strategy and adapting as they are about simple power and ability. So on paper Soifon should be fast enough to get Kira but in a real battle of course, other factors come into play and who knows what Kira and his devious Ichimaru trained brain can come-up with. Tinni  (Talk)  01:23, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Random thought for you Tinni...obviously not canon information but in the Shusuke Amagai arc, we saw that Kira's ability can at least partially be overcome by a rise in spiritual pressure...I guess my question, two of the most up-close fighters (Ichigo and Kenpachi Zaraki) have enormous reiatsu. Now it would seem rather obvious that Kira and Wabisuke would be able to disarm them rather quickly considering that each prefers to attack using their sword, but ultimately considering that Ichigo and Kenpachi seem to be able to raise their spiritual pressure continually on command, do you think Wabisuke would be effective against them? Orionradar 01:34, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Well the anime did do that with Avirama as well, where he got up and tried to fight Kira again with the sheer for of his will but Kira dropped him again by striking him a few more times. Also both Kenpachi and Ichigo do have a limit. It takes a hell of a long time to reach their limit... but they do have one. Wabisuke on the other hand, can keep on double weight without putting any additional strain on Kira. So if they were fighting, it would really be a matter of how well Kira can keep dodging. Also, here's something to think about. Kenpachi weighs 95KG. Four hits from Wabisuke on his body will make him weigh 1520KG. Four more hits and he will weight 24320KG... at this point it reaches the point of ridiculousness and makes me wonder why Kira goes for the peoples weapons and not their bodies. Although Kira doesn't go for the body against fellow Shinigami, probably he doesn't want to cause permanent spinal injury or something. Tinni  (Talk)  02:04, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to point out that Kensei is a former captain as well as vizard to assume he could be beat in any capacity but a lieutenant no matter how powerful is not likely also to assume that he only uses force such as kenpachi is not a factual statement but more of a personal one, seeing as their are only a few occasions actually demonstrating his fighting ability and his full capability to date has not been shown. Having said that Tinni is correct Kira himself has stated that those who fight at range pose a serious problem for they out class him (Hence his fight with rangiku, Avirama and Kibune). As far as him being able to take on hakuda experts the same issue arises as with those wielding weapons. Whether he can take Yoruichi or Soifon is once again captain-class combatants going against a lt. Now for one they are both far faster and more powerful then him. He would have to hit them before they hit him and in turn he would probably have to hit them a number of times before his spiritual power (zanpakuto powered affect). Is capable of overtaking their own spiritual power due to his zanpakuto's affect. Seeing as this has never been shown or likely to happen the only reference as Tinni was using is Kenpachi despite being as powerful as he is, Kenpachi is the only captain to date that has come full contact with Wabisuke. One hit which is all that took place was not able to affect Kenpachi at all where that one hit would at the very least put significant strain on any other combatant. There is room to state that this case was due to kenpachi's own power, but we have to take into account the level of ability of a captain former or otherwise over that of even the most powerful of lieutenants, who to date have not been able to defeat a captain in one on one combat, not considering that the scenario is any more then a rare circumstantial one. Salubri (Talk)  02:39, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Salubri...I don't discount or truly disagree with anything you've said. I do think however that Kensei would prove to be an interesting fight. (The only attack he has shown that isnt physical-force related is the one he provided against Ichigo in the Vizard training ground), everything else from his attacks, including the TBTP arc and his hollowification points to brute force (not saying he doesnt have other abilities, just what we have currently seen) Even if he completely overpowers Kira and knocks him around like a rag doll, if Kira can block a few of his attacks, he might very well have a chance IF he can hold on. I also realize this drawback to my argument...Kensei's weapons, are tiny at best (wouldnt weigh much, meaning it would take more hits from Wabisuke to make them too heavy to use), in both Shikai and Bankai, that might prove to be some advantage in that fight...who knows. I will point out one discrepancy that maybe you can counter, I'm just curious. Ichigo's fights with Ikkaku, Renji and Kenpachi way back in the beginning. Not only did Ichigo barely beat Ikkaku and Renji, he then went on a while not "defeating" Kenpachi, did enough damage to make Kenpachi declare him the winner (if my memory is correct). At that point, while we know Ichigo was growing more mature by leaps and bounds, at that time, he wasnt any more skilled than most Lts right? And he beat arguably one of the strongest captains? This was all before even learning of getsuga tensho right? Oh well, just throwing ideas out there...I think that special abilities of shinigami's zanpaktou really play into their true "strength". Meaning, in a one on one fight, Wabisuke's ability plus Kira's intellect make him a very difficult opponent. Not saying anything about what I said about someone beating someone else in a fight will ever make it right, I'm just throwing out my ideas for what I believe would happen...more like football commentators on ESPN predicting a game. Orionradar 03:07, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Well Ichigo is a special case though. People like to scream and argue with me when I say this but if you look at all the fights Ichigo has been, both in Soul Society and afterwards, it seems clear that Ichigo is an exceedingly unstable person. Mostly it is due to him being an angsty teenager and him being easily controlled by his emotions. In that he is no different from what Byakuya himself was when he was younger and Hitsugaya, only other captain-class shinigami comparable to Ichigo in age (sort-of), has been prone to doing stupid things when he lets his emotions get out of hand. Seem to be a thing in Bleach where people who are emotionally stable have the best control over their power. Anyway, point is that while Ichigo now has bankai and a hollow mask and a full hollow form, it still doesn't actually mean he can beat Kenpachi or Byakuya again. For one, both of them were underestimating Ichigo before. They won't be doing it again. Besides which, Ichigo himself has stated that he doesn't know how he won against Kenpachi. Makes me think that no matter how powerful Ichigo has become, he's not about to face Kenpachi again willingly. Kenpachi = the monster of the Gotei 13 for a reason. As for Kira vs Ichigo, well that does suffer from the practical problem of omakes and fillers indicate that Ichigo has developed friendships with Kira, Hisagi and other Vice-captains and since Kira doesn't get Ichigo riled up like Ikkaku and Renji, Ichigo probably won't ever fight Kira all out. Which does complicate matters. Plus Kira does have kido and even Ichigo needs time to break out of kido spells. So in short, a fight scene CAN be written where Ichigo loses to Kira because of a combination of elements (wabisuke's ability, Ichigo holding back, Kira using kido, the terrain of combat) but such a scenario would require more skill and imagination to execute believably then Kira losing to Ichigo. If that makes sense... Tinni  (Talk)  03:40, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Well its perfectly good to make that point that a zanpakuto is apart of a wielders true strength. I dont discount Kira at all he is one of the most versatile and powerful lieutenants in the Gotei 13, while we can talk forever about the potential capability of defeating a captain-level opponent, despite his skill its still questionable for a number of reasons that the outcome is gonna be in his favor. As for Kensei as i stated the times of him being shown does not confirm that brute force is his own skill and in the event that it is doesn't really put him at a disadvantage especially seeing his power along with his fighting style gets results. He isnt a soft touch by any means, as you said assuming Kira could stand up to that he might have a chance, but this is like assuming he could stand up to kenpachi as well. As far as ichigo and kenpachi are concerned i have had this same argument with another person and what people most commonly overlook is kenpachi's personality and style of fighting. He relishes battle and loves to extend it so he can fight longer. It is only a game to him in alot of ways, when he could really just go in and cut someone down he doesn't and when he could easily finish an opponent off if they cant fight he doesn't like to. True enough he gave ichigo the win and ichigo did show some skill and yes he probably at the time was no better then expert level at swordsmanship. Though his battle with captains at the time were largely draws with the wins given by the opponents. The accomplishment says alot for Ichigo on his development but not so much on his skill or power but rather luck and the fact that he was more a partner to his zanpakuto which kenpachi lacks. What is fact is its something a lieutenant wouldnt be capable of, as Renji couldn't defeat Byakuya and only succeeded in scratching his face. Salubri (Talk)  03:50, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

I actually agree with you Tinni (and have read all the arguments you've made) about Ichigo's unstable nature, and how that works both his benefit and detriment over time and during certain fights. I absolutely agree that at times he is as strong as just about anyone (Kenpachi and Byakuya) while at times he seems to be weaker than some other characters nowhere near that level. However, I think this is played a bit too often in Bleach, where Ichigo will go from dominating someone to powerless to eventually just the ultimate badass in the same fight or successive fights. I also don't think you can argue that those with the most calm nature have the greatest control over their powers. From what we have learned about reiatsu thats the exact nature of the skill, the better control you have over your spiritual pressure, the more powerful you become (to an extent). To me, that's part of why I like most villain characters. The good villains anyway, are typically the quiet calm, has everything covered without much debate sort of villain. My favorite character in Bleach is Byakuya, precisely because that's how he started out in the series (and still kinda is). I look at the all the Anime/American cartoons that I've ever watched and it's the same way with me. Orionradar 03:54, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Omaeda's Shikai
Can anyone answer why Omaeda's shikai form has changed. When we first see it before Ichigo takes him out it has these giant spikes out of it, but now in recent chapters and the new episodes the spikes are tiny and dont look to be as sharp. If anyone has any ideas id be happy to hear them. Unus7484 20:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I just read the last 20 chapters again. In the Manga, Gegetsuburi's appearence has not changed. Its only in the Anime, so its simply a mistake of the animators. --Suzumushi 19:44, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Hisagi Stronger then he appears ?
This has been on my mind for a while. Just how powerful is Suhei, I mean, you don't really see him fight, and when he finally releases his Zanpakto, he completely anihlates his opponent, who was said to be as strong as a captain. Any thoughts. Elementite

Makes sense. When Findor broke off 90% of his mask, he said he was at captain-level. SHuhei's response to his claim seems to imply that he's at captain level as well ("Now you're finally at my level," or something of the sort). Mohrpheus 15:53, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * There is no evidence that he is any stronger than a regular Lieutenant, he sates than Findors powers are no were near that of a Captain and he had the same troulbe against Allon as the rest of the Lieutenants did. WhiteStrike 15:58, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * When Hisagi said "Now you're finally at my level", he was implying that Findor has mis-gauged the power of the shinigami forces (a verbal comeback to when Findor implied that the shinigami were weaker than he originally thought), since Findor claimed to be at captain level at that particular moment. However, it's safe to assume that he is one of the stronger lieutenants, since he was one of the shinigami chosen to guard one the four pillars and because he does not rely on his shikai to battle (unlike most other shinigami in the series), despite being capable of winning battles quickly with Kazeshini's released form. --れび (talk to Lavi!) 00:25, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

My opinion is that this 'Now your finally my equal' has more to do with Findor finally feeling fear and not with his abilities. Hisagi fears his own power, Findor did not and only when he started fearing 'power' they were equal. At least thats the way i understood these lines.Dinadan256 18:38, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

69?
Does anyone know the signficance of the number 69? Maggosh 13:55, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It's actually a clone of what was done by Kensei Muguruma, which he looks up to after he saved his life. 6 is the first kanji of "Muguruma", Kensei's last name, 9 is 9th Division, which Kensei lead before exile. -StrangerAtaru 16:14, 3 December 2008 (UTC)