Talk:Kidō

Soifon's new spell
Anybody knows a plausible translation? And by the way, "shtotsu" seems fishy to mee, because as far as I know, unless it is an "n", in Japanese there are no 2 consonants following each other, there has to be an "u" between, or some kind of mistyping. Domlith 14:11, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Dekoshu 14:11, 19 October 2008 (UTC) Sounds fishy to me too.


 * The attack is "Shitotsu Sansen" according to the raw, so I added the transliteration and kanji. According to my sources, the best translation I can come up with so far is "Beak Thrust Triple Flash" but I know that's probably wrong. -StrangerAtaru 16:25, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


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Kido names
Since in the English version there is no fix way of naming these attacks, (i.e. Bakudo #1 is refer as Sai, Hado #33 Pale fire crash down, and Hado #31 Shot of red fire Shakuho) I propose we leave the names in theyr original japanese format and then add the Kanji and then the literal translation and the English translation if it is different. WhiteStrike 02:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


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Sub vs Dub vs Manga
I'm seeing different translations in both Kido names and Incantations, which one is the 'right' one? The most widely accepted? Balmung6 22:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

MangaSalubri 17:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


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Bakudo #9 and Hado #31: source needed
Anybody knows the first appearances of these two spells? Hado #31 is used very frequently, but I can't remember when does it appear first? Almost all spells are sourced now, it would be good to also reference these. 17:13, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Bakudo #9 was first used by Rukia during the fight with Grand Fisher, and I'm not sure if Rukia used it first or if it was during the flashback of Kira, Momo and Renji. WhiteStrike 22:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You're right with hado#31, Hinamori uses it in the flashback with the incantation. As for bakudo#9, Rukia recites the incantation during the fight but does not number the spell. Domlith 17:55, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I belive that the first time hado#31 was used by rukia kuchiki in the human world after she lost her powers. If memory severs, she drew some kanji into the air and after that fired the kidou --Cyberflame 21:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


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88. Hiryugekizokushintenraiho
Does anybody know who preforms this technique? There's a picture, but with no name, and I can't recognize the person who's doing it. If you know, would you please make an edit. It would be greatly appreciated. Malzzel 9:06, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Tessai Tsukabishi during the TBtP miniarc Chapter -98. WhiteStrike 01:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)


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The new tables
Thank you to whoever added the tables to this page. It looks so much better now. ShotandBotched 00:23, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


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Uncategorized number 12.
In episode 224, Matsumoto calls it by a different name, could someone please look into it. --Gojita 14:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)Gojita

Yeah that's right Rangiku called it "Concealing fire" it was laid out as a net, and it also didn't cause any damage until used in conjunction with "shot of red fire" or "Tobiume" otherwise it could be categorized as Binding.--SalmanH 16:05, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok I looked up and this is gonna be a problem. in the anime its #12. Concealing fire. In the manga its apparently the equivalent of #20. Fushibi (prostrated flame). In this case i would obviously give precedence to the manga, Kubo wrote it as #20. Fushibi, i guess they both mean the same thing as far as spell names the only difference is the number. Seeing as Kubo wrote the manga his version carries more weight.Salubri 16:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Where did #20 come from? In my translation, Matsumoto says it's #12, Fushibi. Hinamori doesn't dispute that. Kamikage 21:13, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Well this is even more of an issue because i have 2 manga translation with 12 and 2 manga translation with 20. Someone needs to check these raws. Salubri 21:24, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

"I have a copy of volume 39 and it clealy states 12 on it. WhiteStrike 21:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


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Byakuya vs Zomari
In the Byakuya vs Zomari fight, Byakuya uses "Way of the Onmitsu 3rd of the "Shihou" Utsusemi Cicada" in the translated manga (chapter 299) or in the subed anime (ep. 196) he says "Shihou Black Ops Step Technique 3: Molting Cicada" could this be considered a form of kido made by the Royal family of Yoruichi Shihōin?

It would be a Hohō technique. It's just another Shunpo technique, like Senka. Kamikage 01:38, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


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What happens when a hollow gets killies by kido
So to answer my question what dose happen dose it get purified or dose it die completly like how a Quincy kills a hollow? Because they never explan how kido effects hollows.

Its assume they aslo purify a Hollow otherwise Kido would be forribidden.Saimaroimaru 16:46, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


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Combined Incantations
My memory escapes me, but I believe that when Rukia fought Aaroniero, she intertwined two incantations instead of saying them one after the other. If this is indeed correct, should the ability to do so be mentioned in the article? Mohrpheus 04:22, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

what she did was a double incantation. She did say the first part of the incantation to double of blue fire crashdown and mixed in the bakudo spell in the middle and then finished with the rest of blue fire crashdown. What it looks like is that it saved her time instead of doing two incarnations one after the other, which makes since in order to use it against an opponent it would be the only way in which to effectively fight using kido. It probably can be mentioned.Salubri 05:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


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Gifts
adding gifts makes the page difficult to view for some of us with not so good or old computers. Over adding gifts to one site can make it almoust completly impossible. Most of theese gifts are not even better than the image and only add a lot of unesecary screens. Could somone please take this into consideration whent the page is unlocked. --Gojita 13:16, 6 July 2009 (UTC)Gojita

I really don't have a problem with them my computer runs fine. Also they are actually far better detailed then what was up there sometimes the vids are just better. While it is true that over adding can slow up the loading as i said before my computer doesnt have that problem. Im guessing that most people on these editing sites would have good computers otherwise they could never edit anything. I don't really think the site can accommodate one person because of them having a old or bad computer. Unless its a big issue that others complain about as well.Cascader 13:40, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Wow i haven't been on in a minute but the kido page looks awesome. The funny thing is i rarely ever see vids of any specific thing online and someone actually found all these wow. Maybe im looking in the wrong place, these show so much more, which is surprising cause i couldn't even remember some of these fights happening where these spells were used now i gotta go back and watch the episodes to see how they came about good job. Oh umm mine works fine to if that matters.TeamBleach2 13:54, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This page does indeed have an excessive use of GIF's. I know that alot of people like GIF images (personally I don't like them to much), but there is something as to much of good thing> I propos gong back to the regular images that we had before and save the GIF's for the spells that have their own page. As we previously disuss on the Forums we can make a page for each individual spell be ot Hado, Bakudo or other.WhiteStrike 16:38, 11 July 2009 (UTC)


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New Edits
The recent edits that have been made to the beginning of the article contain relatively accurate information, but the extent to which it is explained is purely speculative. For example, the paragraph which cites the difficulty of using kidou in a battle. The fact that such a vast number of characters have done so undermines the information in that section. More clean up should be applied to the areas of the article in question. Mohrpheus 18:47, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Not at all. kido is difficult to use in a battle otherwise everyone would use it all the time to end the battle instead of using swordsmanship. It requires considerable skill and training and spiritual energy. All the information for it is on the articles. It is far easier for experts and masters to use it in battle then someone who is below that level. It is already stated that its used quite effectively in battle. Then the section goes on to explain why its effectively used, there is proof of that much in the series. It really doesn't undermine any of the characters that we have seen, we also cannot speak on lower level practitioners using lower level spells, as they havent been seen as well as its speculation. We can only talk about what is known. So far logically speaking if someone is aware of a kido spell they can counter or dodge it. Also in most instance the opponent doesn't know the caster is gonna use the spell and is completely caught off guard do to the steps stated such as (byakuya and ichigo, byakuya and renji, rukia and aaroniero, momo and harribel's faccion, soifon and gigio, hisagi and findar, aizen and komamura). The only occasions of characters not well versed are in the cases of renji and omaeda which explains why theirs failed as they are not good with kido. As far as using the spell without incantation. Rukia wouldnt be able to get the desired effect of what she was gonna do if aaroneiro saw it coming he realized to late that she was using a double incantation. In other cases its faster to use a spell with no incantation; that surprise element mixed with quick action. Just recently momo mixed destructive and binding spells, which rangiku commented that she was talented. So what part is speculative.Salubri 19:30, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps "purely speculative" was an overkill observation. My point is that nothing has ever been said about kidou being particularly difficult to use in combat. As far as difficulty goes, that is why the lower spells exist - the article itself states that spells with lower levels are easier to perform. The speculation that I am referencing is that it is "only practical for those of expert skill to practice it in a battle." Nothing of the sort has ever been said in the series. Certain skills involving kidou, such as Eishohaki and Double Incantation have been identified as particularly advanced techniques, but the use of kidou itself has not. Its use is one of the basic skills taught in the shinigami academy - shinigami are trained to to use it against ordinary hollows (sans Menos and Arrancar). Besides, your logic works for any form of shinigami combat - if you see it coming, of course it is going to be much easier to counter, and any attack that is launched by surprise is more certain to work. Mohrpheus 19:49, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok then maybe saying its difficult for anyone is not the right wording the point of the section was just to talk about its combat usage not to dwell on who can't use it. Though even though its taught at the academy doesn't mean a user will be good with it. But the point on lower level spells is valid. In any case the wording for difficult for anyone not a master or expert is badly worded.Salubri 20:04, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


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Hanki Sosai
Just another thing that I noticed while going through the page again. The article infers that Hanki Sosai is in direct relation to Shunko. However, Soifon was the one that had identified the technique when Yoruichi used it. Considering that Soifon had not yet completed Shunko, let alone name it, I don't see how she could recognize Hanki Sosai if it were an extension of it. What I am basically saying is that I think that it is its own individual technique. Mohrpheus 15:55, 10 July 2009 (UTC)


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Hacchi's decapitating barriers
So, in ch366, Hachi uses a number of box-shaper barriers to decapitate some Gillians. The barriers seem to be the same as the one that Kira & the injured VCs are under, but obviously that doesn't mean that they are actually identical. They're clearly bigger for one. He also keeps his zan' inside a barrier. I think maybe something should be added to say that barriers can be used offensively, even if it is somewhat unconventional to do so. (btw this page is looking great now with all the gifs. Great idea)Yyp 16:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if Hachi's use of barriers should be added here, unless there's a flashback of him using it. Something I'm sure is forgotten by now is that Hachi did say he developed some new spells after becoming a vizard and are different from the shinigami-developed kido spells (which is why he found it surprising that Orihime managed to effortlessly slip through the barrier surrounding the Vizards' hideout). Arrancar109 16:12, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * However, he also stated that his powers with barriers are similar to Orihime's, and we have seen him being able to pull bariers out of thin air anywhere without incantation or even just a tech name. Moreover, the only kidou his barriers sort of resemle of is the one Byakuya used to protect Rukia and Hanatarou from his Goukei when he was fighting Zomali. We have no valid information wether his barriers are kidou or his own spcial abilities (just like Orihime's ShunShunRikka, Chad's arm, or Yoruichi's cat form). Until we know more, it would be safer to put these barriers to Hacchi's page as abbilities, instead of here, where we can't technically write anything about that has anything to do with "kidou" anyways. Kenchan 08:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

It's clear a vast majority of the spells he uses are similar to kido but not standard to what shinigami uses. He is a vizard and majority of his techniques are developed after becoming one and his are new and alien in concept and wholly more powerful then what soul society uses. As such Kenchan is correct they have listing on his page but until can be confirmed by name or action most of nameless stuff that we know little about, those that do however can be listed under uncatogorized spells i dont think that any of us question that a kido master who is confortable in that area would use anything else considering his powers are likely a augmentation and variation of his former practices.Salubri 17:27, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


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Hachi's Shiji no Saimon spells
Considering the above posts on Hacchi's barriers, should these spells be included in this section, or just on Hacchi's page? I think they are well done, but I'm just going by what Arrancar109 said. Personally, I wouldn't object to a sub-section of this article being dedicated to Hacchi's spells, but I understand that that is not what the admin's think. --Yyp 13:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I would have to agree with Yyp, since Hachi was the one who formulated these kidō and is the only one who knows how to use it. We should give credit to the discoverer.--Agate genbu 13:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The fact what Barragan stated that Kidou can be strengthened by adding the incantation later clearly prooves that it was Kidou. So, it should have a section here just as Tessai's two forbidden spells.Kenchan 19:22, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Barragan's an Arrancar, and he would have little to no knowledge about kido as such. Besides, Barragan's point was that anything made can be aged. This includes Hachi's barriers, kido, ceros, bala, getsuga tensho blasts, etc. If some of these barrier techniques utilized by Hachi turn out to be kido, we actually have to have more clarification than some label slapped on by an Arrancar with little to no knowledge about the effects of various kido spells. For now it's best to leave things like this on Hachi's page alone. Arrancar109 05:48, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Your point of him knowing little about Kido is invalid as it is not something you can proove with racial standing alone. At best it might even mean that he can hold a great knowledge about Kidou because he's one of the Top 3 Espada, thus prettly old to have met many shinigami (even back then when he was stil just a hollow) during his life.. I mean.. afterlife. Also Hacchi did use incantation, which means it was Kidou. You need no other proof than that. Kenchan 18:34, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The point about him being old says nothing about his experience with shinigami, since souls age very slowly after death. Even so when someone dies, it seems they're the physical age of when they died in the living world, not to mention we don't know squat about Barragan's past. For all we know, he probably only fought 1 shinigami or fought off an entire unit before he became an Espada. Either way, I will concede that the incantation he uses strongly hints that it's kido, if not confirms it, so yes, they do belong on the page. I simply forgot about him using incantations there. Arrancar109 18:52, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Another thing about Hacchi's kido, couldn't the one incantaion be used to summon all four gates? The incantaion does make reference to four beings, and all four gates were summoned in the order of their related colors, i.e. blue dragon, white tiger, black turtle, red pheonix (Asian mythology ftw!). Replace the animal name with bolt and you have the same order. That makes Shiji no Saimon kind of like a part 2 to the spell, when you think about it. All speculation, so I understand if it can't be added until confirmed, but it does make sense.--Mucho mas35 21:37, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The problem with this is, that the after-incantation really did strengthen the first gate, otherwise Barragan wouldn't have described it as such. So it was really an after-incantation. And besides, Shijuu no Saimon looks more like a 4-part-spell and thus it would make sense if the incantation should really be incantated before the first gate. The rest of the gates and the entire barrier being the additional parts of the first gate also makes little sense if you look at their purpose. The first gate is just a shield, like the others are, and the final spell is like a vault. It is obvious that the final spell is the important one which we should talk about, and the four gates just parts of it. Kenchan 17:23, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


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Unnecesarry Information?
Hey guys, I've been reading through this article and in many areas there seems to be information, while almost relevant not needed and better suited to be left in other articles or a separate area of this article. An example of this would be in Soukatsui where it's mentioned that it 'sounds' like Sokatsuki in a particular game. Not only is that relatively useless information, but it is also information reliant on somebody's hearing. Especially since the word is in a different language. Another example would be in the area for Sajo Sabaku where it speaks about what Hachi mentioned. Wouldn't that be better to state someplace or not at all?

While i can agree on the first one you may not be familiar with the site the second speaks directly to the capabilities of the spell. It's exactly where it belongs.Salubri 16:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

See, that's where I disagree. It talks about a spell of that level, not the spell specifically. So, wouldn't it be better to place it in a more general area, like Kidou Mechanics or Kidou Combat? Swoosherz 21:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

He is making an observation on something he knows to be impossible and he's saying it generally but he is directly talking about the spell. It can't go anywhere else as its not relevant as nowhere in article is any specific info given to any spell except in the area detailing the spells, also we don't know that it is true of all level 60 spells as we have not seen the effect used on other level 60 spells only that one.Salubri 04:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

He stated, 'I have never seen a level-60 bakudou broken with pure strength before,' (according to the Sleepyfans translation), while that is a statement which talks of all level-60 bakudou, although it was in reference to a specific spell. It could easily be put in to the description of bakudou and allow for expansion in those fields (hadou, bakudou and healing), which is possible while still providing relevant, useful and more accessible information. Swoosherz 01:18, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

You just proved my point. It cant easily be put anywhere cause as i have said we don't know what other level 60 spells could be affected that way. Placing it anywhere else would be an assumption or speculation. Do it on the forums as it has no place on the article. We are not here to make stuff up or do fan fiction.Salubri 03:14, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


 * We don't even know if there are more lvl 60 Bakudou or not. The only thing that ever hinted at the possibility of more spells of the came class sharing the same number were Rukia using Hadou No.63 Souren Soukatsui, because at that time a No.63. Hadou (Raikouhou) already existed. But even that one example is heavily theorized to be nothing but a failure on Kubo's side, because the spell's number was corrected to No.73 in the anime. And even if it was the anime's fault, this is an unstable ground here. We shouldn't jump into conclusions based on facts that stand on unstable grounds. The end result would be an epic faliure. As far as our current and undoubtable knowledge goes, Hacchi refered to that Bakudou as something that he have never seen anyone break with physical force alone. This implies that theoretically even a Captain couldn't do it naturally, because the subject who broke it was one, yet Hacchigen was genuinly surprised. We know nothing else besides that, if anywhere, this information should belong to this certain spell, saying "Usoda Hacchigen impled that it is a spell that could not be broken by physical force alone". That is all we know currectly, and it is correctly placed where it belongs. It can be correctd when we gain more information about the subject anyways. Until then, relocating it just pulls revelant informations apart. It is an information that currently only serves any sort of purpose where it is. There's no reason to throw it away to some other general place where no one will find it / care about it, let alone delete it just because it's not a big deal on info. Kenchan 13:48, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


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Pale Fire Crash / animations
There doesn't seem to be a listing for the kido Rukia used in episode 4/the Shrieker fight, bakudo 33 Pale Fire Crash.

Also there's so many animations on this page it's starting to slow down for me. Maybe it should be cut down ZeroSD 03:27, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I would also concur with the animations, and I have a relatively fast computer, yet that entire page lags terribly for me. There seem to be plenty of them that could show just a portion of the kido used or the resulting affects with just a still image and get the point across, since the description details how it works. Twocents 16:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

If we just use animations for the most used kido would that speed it up any great deal? TomServo101 18:02, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and/or like Twocents said, the ones where you don't really need an animation to see what they do. ZeroSD 02:14, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Im not supporting any destruction of the kido page. I made the chart layout and someone else added gifs to acknowledge what a still picture could not. This was as well referenced in the guidelines. Having said that there is talk of making pages for each spell and placing the gifs on those pages. The point is to feature as much information on the pages as possible. Showing still shots at most does nothing for showing something moving. But my comp doesnt have a problem loading the page ever. So instead of complaining about down grading the page lets work on making it better.Salubri 02:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Bakudo #4 and 63 for example, can be shown simply with a picture of the target bound with the energy rope. Hado 58 just needs a pic of the whirlwind, Hado 4, the lightning, Bakudo 58, the symbol. A lot of the animations don't show anything a still wouldn't, so I think replacing them with pics would make the page better. It'd definitely be helpful for all the people having problems with the page due to lag. ZeroSD 06:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, there are only a few which need gifs. Bakuko 30, 58, 77 (due to the markings on the arms) and Hado 90. None of the others need to be animated imo. --Yyp 11:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good list to me. ZeroSD 12:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Salubri, I appreciate all of the work you put into the page and I can see how you'd be upset about anyone adjusting it, especially when you aren't having any problems, but considering there are over 2000 users on this wiki, we should be considerate that everyone's computer may not be as fast. And when the gifs don't even load fully for people, they're not getting the point across. As this wiki's about page states that gifs are only really necessary for showing what isn't shown in a still shot, and plenty of the animated videos don't meet that criteria, I think it's a bit dramatic to say that altering the images to jpgs to be more useful to people would "destroy" the page. A lot of the vids currently show information that isn't even relevant to the spell, like #63, which primarily shows Hachi casting the spell, when seeing Kensei in chains is really the only relevant part. As far as I can tell, a still, combined with the written description, should be more than enough to get the point across and it will allow the page to be useful to a larger number of users. Twocents 05:10, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

There all the previous pics have been restored with only two remaining gifs on the page. With linked pages for those who want to see the gifs.Salubri 02:09, September 7, 2009 (UTC)


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Jikanteishi/Kūkanten'i
Who do you need to plug your ears and shut your eyes when this technique is being performed?

incantations
i thought that a few of the kidou had their incantations used in the latest arc, but i don't see them listed with incantations. although, i may be wrong...
 * always correcting,  Aunva 02:23, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

English
I say for each individual kido article we should put the english incantation as well (from the anime).--Kylecharmed 00:02, September 15, 2009 (UTC)