User talk:Killbethy

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Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Arrancar109 (Talk) 22:51, November 30, 2010

Closed discussion is closed
Please refrain from editing closed discussion. They are closed for a reason. Secondly, what you are referring to about Aizen saying "part Shinigami and part something else" is a printing error and has been established as such. That line was always meant to be "part human and part..." enter Isshin thus completing the sentence by showing Ichigo that his father is not human. That line was corrected when chapter 397 was collected in a volume and spoken correctly when chapter 397 was animated. So please refrain from perpetuating that piece of baseless crack theory. There is no grounds for saying Ichigo's mother is anything but a human and there is no reason to call Ichigo and his sisters anything but human when people in-universe have referred to them as such. Tinni  (Talk)  08:56, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

I got the above message in response to this post under the Talk page for Ichigo's Species...

Here is the general argument....

Since I still think it's a relevant point and apparently can't be posted on the Talk page, just going to leave it here for safe keeping. First, I never said that Ichigo's mother wasn't human ("Ichigo's mother has never been stated to be anything other than human" = "As far as we know, Ichigo's mother is human" in easy English).

The basic argument is the difference between SPECIES, a biological classification, and POWERS, current "spiritual" abilities in the Bleach universe. Ichigo was BORN half-Shinigami, half-human, so biologically that would make his SPECIES a Shinigami-Human hybrid. Nothing can change that. Although currently his spiritual powers are that of an ordinary human (ie. non-existent), that doesn't change the fact that he is. was. and will always be part-Shinigami. It's this part of Ichigo that makes him unique: he is/was a Shinigami that can exist in the real world and be seen without a gigai, as well as exist in just a spiritual form. You don't call a creature that is an amphibious species aquatic when it is in the water and, say, a reptile when it is on land; it's always amphibious. When Rukia lost her Shinigami powers, was she ever at any point considered human? When Ishida lost his powers was he ever NOT a Quincy?

Here is the post:

I know this discussion has been closed for some time, but wouldn't it be more accurate to list Ichigo's species (possibly Karin and Yuzu as well) as something like "Shinigami-human Hybrid" or "Shinigami Hybrid"? Stating Ichigo as just human since he lost his powers seems incorrect for two reasons. First, from what Aizen said, as well as what formed his interest in Ichigo, was that he was never completely human. From Chapter 410, page 18 (http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-410-page-18.html) of the manga, Aizen says he has always watched Ichigo, because he was "special the beginning" due the fact that he is part Shinigami and part something else (Aizen is interrupted, but presumably human since Ichigo's mother has never been stated to be anything other than human). Second, Isshin Kurosaki gave up his Shinigami powers for 20 years and existed as a human to be with Masaki (which he later regains to fight Aizen). This would be during the time that Ichigo was born, but even though Isshin was living as a human then without his Shinigami powers, Ichigo is still part Shinigami. '''All this info implies that Ichigo, from birth, was and always will be part Shinigami, regardless of whether he can use or access the powers or not. '''Just because he currently only has the powers of an ordinary human does not change the fact that he is genetically half-Shinigami due to his heritage from Isshin. Killbethy (talk) 09:42, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, I specifically brought-up the point about Ichigo's mother being unambiguously human is because you wrote "Aizen says he has always watched Ichigo, because he was "special the beginning" due the fact that he is part Shinigami and part something else (Aizen is interrupted, but presumably human since Ichigo's mother has never been stated to be anything other than human)" and then you decide to argue with me by saying "I never said that Ichigo's mother wasn't human". Perhaps you didn't intent it but it is a persistent problem for use when people cling to the printing error that was made and refuse to correct themselves. Indeed, you yourself qouted the erronous line. Secondly, this has been discussed before and my answer to that discussion applies here. You can find the previous discussion here. Tinni  (Talk)  10:01, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

We will just have to agree to disagree. I apologize for posting under the Closed Discussion, but debating or stating my opinion on it in a Blog or on my Talk Page isn't violating any rules. I'm sorry, but I still don't know how you can interpret what I wrote as Ichigo's mother not being human since "never been stated to be anything other than human" is EXACTLY the same as saying that (with what we know from the story so far) she IS human, not anything else. It isn't ambiguous; it's just another way of saying that she is human, not anything else. As far as the printing error goes, it really doesn't matter which was the line is said. "Part Shinigami, part..." implies human, since we know that Ichigo's mother is human. "Part human, part..." implies Shinigami, especially since Isshin appears at the moment the interruption occurs. Either way, you wind up with the following: Ichigo is part Shinigami, part human. That is his SPECIES. Biologically, Ichigo comes from a Shinigami father and a human mother. Whether or not he has the ability to use Shinigami powers doesn't change his biological make-up. Ichigo lost his powers, not his DNA. Killbethy (talk) 10:51, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

You are mistaken, "never been stated to be anything other than human" is not the same as "she is human". The former leaves open the door that she might be stated to be something other then human at some future date and that her human status presently is derived from omission of a statement to the contrary rather then an explicit statement asserting she is human. The latter statement is stronger and leaves no room for doubt. In addition, the fact that you keep referencing the misprint is in itself a problem. Yes I know you wrote a "note" explaining how it was later corrected but since it is misprint, I suggest you simply refer to the corrected statement. Not doing so will compel me to bring-up your blog with the admins for assisting in the spread of misinformation and recommend deletion. Don't get me wrong, 90% of reader of this wiki know its a misprint. Of the remaining 10%, most would read and absorb the note and thus learn the fact. However, there still remains a sizeable portion that will skim over your content and use what you are saying to reinforce their errornous belief that Masaki is not human but is. Might seem excessive but take it from a person who has to address this misinformation on a semi-regular basis. It's a problem. Tinni  (Talk)  11:35, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

It is saying that "as far as we know, she is human;" which is the truth. It cannot be considered erroneous until the story is complete. There was a point in time when people would have categorized Isshin as human before his Shinigami descent was revealed. You could argue that we really don't know a lot about the past of the Kurosaki family, and we also know very little about Isshin and Masaki's relationship, etc.; but all of those ideas are really irrelevant. Until a story is FINISHED, there is ALWAYS room for doubt, opinions, predictions, or even specific beliefs that Masaki could be revealed to be something other that human at a later date. Unless you are somehow psychic and know every plot twist and character revelation that Tite Kubo has in store for the rest of the entire series, nothing is concrete. So, in explaining details, things will always be "to the best of our knowledge so far" until Bleach reaches its completion. Killbethy (talk) 20:03, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

sigh Suggesting Masaki is anything other then human, even implicitly, is a violation of our Bleach Wiki:Speculation Policy as it is considered crack theory. There is NO evidence that Masaki is anything but human AND Aizen explicitly identified her to be one. However, since you insist upon wording our blogs and statements in a manner that may promote misinformation, I will be bringing your blog up with the admins. I'll leave it to their discretion to leave it or delete it. Please keep in mind that as far as this wiki is concerned things ARE concrete unless stated otherwise. We deal with the story as has been unfolded. Not the story that is yet to come. So it is not "the best of our knowledge so far", it is "to our knowledge so far" period. It is upto Kubo to alter our knowledge with future chapters. We are not concerned with that. We are just concerned with what has been shown. Tinni  (Talk)  20:31, December 8, 2010 (UTC)