Talk:Szayelaporro Granz/Archive 2

Plot Pictures
I just noticed that most of the pictures in the plot section are not really depicting Szayel, but the general events of the battle, particularly after he goes Resurreccion. I mean there's Dondochakka and Pesche, Mayuri, and Nemu. Is this supposed to be like that or were the pics just randomly chosen from the episode(s)? I would suggest changing them to be more Szayel-centric, like in the other character articles. If it were to be approved, I could offer myself to go through the episodes to get more Szayel-centric pictures. I'll leave it to the admins to decide, since I know we usually use manga-based pictures, so I don't know what with Szayel's pictures when the manga and episodes came out. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  06:38, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

I would agree with this--God (Pray)  06:43, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the picture choices seem poorly related to Szayel. A few have already been removed due them being on the page twice. New ones should be found and I think we can stand to lose the following: "Mayuri using his self-destruct protocol", "Mayuri activates his Bankai, Konjiki Ashisogi Jizō", "Mayuri appears onto the battlefield", "Pesche and Dondochakka charging up their Cero Sincrético" & "Dondochakka ready to unleash Bawabawa" and replace them with more relevant ones. 10:45, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

OK! I'm currently at it. BTW, I noticed there is some sort of lacking in pics for the in-between area, since the "Szayel eats Lumina" to "Szayel holding Ishida doll" should I look for pictures to add there? I'm taking a bunch of shots anyway, might throw them here before adding them to the article. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  06:54, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

I just wanted to say that I'm already working on it, though it's harder than I anticipated since all that Szayel does is stand there and watch everyone wriggle in their missery. I'm still missing the whole battle against Mayuri, and I have some shots of the fight inside the lab that I'm not sure if would be worth adding, like a picture of Szayel's release "ritual" (the whole deep-throating his sword and etc.) though I need to find an unsubbed pic of that one. Point is I'd like to know what everyone else thinks of adding more pictures, or if it's OK just changing the unnecessary ones (I think I'm only missing the two Mayuri ones, and I'm doubting the Nemu one). 'Coz I kinda like having plenty pictures, kinda what I did for Ulquiorra's Arrancar arc part, almost one pic per paragraph, but some people have told me it may look cluttered. So should I or should I not add more pictures that those that are being replaced? Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  08:43, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Swordsmanship
This was brought up by Grimmjow2 a while back, but the discussion was closed without any response. Shouldn't Szayel be listed as a Master Swordsman? Going by the system, we rank skill based on performance against other characters. Given that Renji is a Master Swordsman, yet couldn't land a hit on him, wouldn't that make him one as well? Mohrpheus (talk) 01:53, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

No that had to do with his evasion skill or sonido he never once used his sword except maybe defensively but then again i only recall him taking it out to release.--Salubri (Talk)  02:06, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps it was only in the anime fight, but Szayel was easily deflecting Renji's Zabimaru. I'd imagine Renji's status as a "Master Swordsman" comes from his use of his Shikai and not his Bankai (since it doesn't take the form of a sword), and if I'm correct, then Szayel should be considered one as well. Just saying...Grimmjow2 (talk) 14:08, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I have looked over the fight again since I last brought it up, and realized that Szayel was mostly blocking Zabimaru with his bare hands, rather than using his sword. He only takes it out a few times, but never displays any feats that would indicate he is necessarily a skilled swordsman, especially since he himself admitted that he is not very good at it. It may be different in the anime, but that wouldn't be the first time they put a character's skill out of context to make the fight more dramatic. I'd say leave it as is. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  14:14, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, ok. Roger that. I just read through the manga fight and he hardly uses his sword. But this raises something else. He was casually deflecting and blocking a Master-level Swordsman's sword attacks (from something as unpredictable as a whip sword no less) with his bare hands. Since Grimmjow basically did the same thing with Ichigo, does this warrant adding "Hand-to-Hand" combat to Szayel's list of abilities (not necessarily master-level though)? Grimmjow2 (talk) 16:49, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

Casually blocking and deflecting does not equal hand-to-hand combat. Anyone with no formal training in fighting can do that especially when seeing as he is an Arrancar with Hierro. Grimmjow's status is different because he is commonly seen using hand to hand combat throughout his appearances as his single form of combat.--Salubri (Talk)  17:37, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

That's all dandy, except for the fact that Szayel didn't have as many "appearances" as Grimmjow, so we only have his one fight to judge. He is at the very least a "practitioner" of it. Also, casual deflecting a whip sword is the definition of hand-to-hand combat. If you can't casually do something then you aren't a master at it. Kenpachi can casually cut people down, Byakuya can casually use Kido, Sui-Feng can casually out-pace someone etc. Wouldn't you agree? Anyway, I don't wish to pursue this, but a note of it should be made somewhere. Omaeda, Rukia, Byakuya and Toshiro are listed as practitioners, but Szayel's usage was far more impressive than any they've shown.Grimmjow2 (talk) 09:26, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

If the site was based on what people can probably do then there would be a point but thats not what its about the mention of abilities are restricted to appearance. Meaning we can only put down what has been witnessed. One fight is all we have to go on all the instances of others using an ability are not in the same stance as this its well known Byakuya's kido skill and Sui-fengs Shunpo ability or Kenpachi's swordsmanship skill. All the others have been listed as such because they have shown some ability in the use of hand-to- hand combat. Szayel didn't show any skill notable in a series about fighting. Once again what he did is not considered hand to hand combat and to say that those listed as capable of such didn't show any skill proves that research was not done in regards to other characters. Blocking is not hand to hand combat. --Salubri (Talk)  15:59, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

Sexual Orientation
No. I'm not joking,

In one of the episodes he refers to Uryu and Renji as "sexy men " I think it was episode 192

Should we not mention this in his personality section.

I can't see him as straight after refering to them as that.

I think it may be important as it would make him one of the openly gay characters in Bleach.

TotalDrama22121. When worlds collide...it's dramatic. 21:51, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

This is in no way indicative of sexual orientation. Sexy is a common word now that is rarely used as it once was. Unless you have more proof, we are not putting this in the article--God (Pray)  21:54, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Aside from that Szayel pretty much confirms this to be untrue here - TheDevilHand888 (talk) 22:02, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the "sexy men" comment is a very strange thing to say if your straight to OTHER men. Yes, the word sexy is used very frivilous nowadays but even still, it just seemed a weird thing for someone (even someone as strange as Syazel) to say, especially to opponents in the heat of battle.

TotalDrama22121. When worlds collide...it's dramatic. 22:07, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

DevilHand already showed a reference where Szayel himself said he doesn't "swing that way" as he himself put it. Besides, even Shunsui once called Ukitake "handsome", as a friendly comment, we can't go around saying any character has a particular sexual orientation unless they specifically state so. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  22:14, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Sexy and handsome mean very different things.

We don't have to put anything in the article, but a forum to discuss this would be interesting.

Has this issue ever come up before, maybe with Soifon and Yoruichi.

TotalDrama22121. When worlds collide...it's dramatic. 22:24, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

I don't even see the need for a forum, in Szayel's case, DevilHand already linked to a page where he confirms he isn't gay so there's no place for such discussion. As for any other character, I believe such forum would be place for abuse, vandalism, crack theories, fanfiction and such, so I would not encourage its creation. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  22:37, September 13, 2010 (UTC)

Yep, this discussion is at an end. We can't stop TotalDrama22121 from starting a blog post if TotalDrama22121 really wants to discuss this. But I would like to point out that no character and I mean, no character in Bleach only Chizuru Honshō has been confirmed to be homosexual, bisexual etc. This includes Soifon and Yumichika. It's not even a topic of discussion in terms of Yoruichi. Certain Szayel actually said that despite his flamboyant ways, he has no interest in men. So really, until we get confirmations, it's all speculation. Tinni  (Talk)  08:04, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

Special Hell Arc Chapter
I was wondering if information from this chapter should be added to his and Aaroneiro's page. Considering Kubo drew that out and it is kind of continuation from the events in the Manga, should it be added somewhere either as Plot or otherwise? Just curious...

For those who haven't read it yet, it's available via Mangastream here:

http://mangastream.com/read/bleach/98980820/1TVthePunisher (talk) 08:58, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

Well, adding it to the Plot section would be us like us stating that movies are canon, which is not true. Kubo did this as a precursor to the movie, not to tie in the manga with the movie (not that I'm accusing you of it, but many fans will take this recent Chapter Special as a sign of Kubo "tying the movie in with the manga"). The point of this, which was also made clear in several of the movie trailers, was to illustrate that the war with Aizen has already ended, and the only time Ichigo took that Hollowfied form was against Ulquiorra, which caught Shuren's attention. Anyway before I get too off-topic, this is probably going to go into the "Appearances in Other Media" section for both Szayel Aporro Granz and Aaroniero Arruruerie, since this the plot of the special manga chapter is specifically set up for the movie. Arrancar109 (Talk)  09:08, November 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Gotcha. Makes sense in the long-run and would be best served that way, especially so it doesn't start a whole debate on what's canon for Espada and what isn't. TVthePunisher (talk) 09:16, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

Technically, the events of the hell chapter CAN be placed in canon timeline. It happened during the Arrancar Arc after Aporro's death. So we CAN add a paragraph after his death saying "after he died, he fell into hell where he was found no. 9 blah, blah, blah". This way, we don't have to create a new arc just for this chapter and so when the movie eventually comes out, we can just dump the movie content into the "other media" section because well... it's other media. However, we are on much more slippery footing with this hell chapter BECAUSE we included Hitsugaya's -15 chapter as canon. That, all said and done, was a tie-in chapter too, to the movie "Diamond Dust Rebellion". It said so on the front page! We can't say one movie tie-in chapter is canon and discard the other. I totally understand the danger of fans claiming movies as canon. Hell, every Ichigo x Rukia fan claim that Fade to Black is canon because that movie is the centre piece of their deluded fantasy that Ichio x Rukia is a couple in Bleach proper and not just in their fanfiction. But I don't think the fear of fans who can't tell canon from fanon should dictate what we do with this chapter. We should look at it objectively,

1. Was it drawn by Kubo exclusively? Check!

2. Did it have anything that contradicted established canon? Nope! The shu-whatisname said something about dropping Ichigo into hell but that was a future plan based on Ichigo as he was then. We don't know how Ichigo losing his powers effected that guys plans.

3. Can we place it in canon timeline? Yep! Arrancar arc, shortly after Aporro died!

I think that's enough to get the story of the chapter included at the end of the Arrancar Arc section of both Aporro and no. 9. People will argue movies are canon whatever we may do with this chapter. We really shouldn't let that dictate what we do. Tinni  (Talk)  11:16, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

I'd think that the name of the chapter is enough to warrant the fact that it is uncanon. imaginary number... Kubo made a point to establish the fact that this chapter is uncanon, more of a "what-if" scenario. Shuren's statements obviously allude to the plot of the upcoming movie, so it very much so intervenes with what we perceive as canon material, whether it occurred in the one-shot or not. This would qualify as "appearances in other media." It's no more canon than Bleach on the Beach was, and if anyone wants to argue that one, then we have a problem here. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  15:17, November 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Good point. The "i" does throw it off. Hitsugaya chapter had the proper "-" format that past chapters have. However, I am still unsure about calling the plot of this chapter "other media" when its not, strictly speaking, other media. How about we put it as "Hell Arc" with the warning "Note: Events occurring in this arc were depicted in a special chapter to promote the 4th Bleach movie. It is not considered part of the main Bleach story." similar to what we do for anime only arcs. That way we have it in the plot section with all the other manga based stuff and thus acknowledge the Kubo did write and draw it. BUT we avoid grouping with main story chapters. Tinni   (Talk)  19:39, November 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that could work--God (Pray)  20:19, November 26, 2010 (UTC)

This is nonsense. Allow me to state that I'm a regular user of this wiki (although I very very rarely edit unless it a flaw that irks me) and I have no "editorial" experience at this site or any other wiki. I wouldn't argue with you guys about this considering my experience versus yours. With that said this chapter IS Canon. Kubo mentioned that earlier in a recent interview that this movie is Canon compared to the other 3 movies (which aren't canon). The notion that it isn't canon because it doesn't have a proper chapter title is appalling. It's similar to a regular chapter in almost every way other than the previous fact. We're not talking about video games, movies, or any of that sort. It's work written, drawn, and said by Kubo to be canon. It's not really that hard guys. FireLordZuko (talk) 20:35, December 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * No, its not canon. Yes it was drawn by Kubo but it has no place in the story. This is canon only to the movie, which is not canon. Ichigo has his powers in the movie while in canon he does not. Kubo did not say its canon, he said it has the feel of Bleach. This chapter does not fit in anywhere--God (Pray)  21:22, December 1, 2010 (UTC)

Given that wiki includes non-canon sections for anime-only filler storylines (with a disclaimer of their non-canon status) in the appropriate character articles, what reason is there to not do the same for this? RedXIV (talk) 10:11, December 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I second the question. Whether this was canon or not, it involved Szayel both manga and anime so I think this should be included in his article page. Maybe having a separate arc to call this isn't really necessary. Just as long as it mentions that it syncs in with the third Bleach movie; it's settled. Convert (talk) 10:11, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Its a tie in, it is not related to any arc, it is not an arc. It would be best placed under Appearences in other media and his gran rey cero can be mentioned there. --<font color="#660066" face="Verdana">God <font color="#660066" face="Verdana">(Pray)  04:23, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

It's been over a month since this chapter/episode came out. I'm pretty sure it's safe from vandalism by now, so can the page be unlocked? I'm currently working on fixing up this page (it really needs it), so I'll add the Hell arc info into Appearances in Other Media if no one else wants to do it. CJett92 (talk) 22:41, January 4, 2011 (UTC)

Tinni's solution a few posts above works for me (label it as Hell Chapter/The Unforgivens and stick the disclaimer on it). If there are no objections, I'll lift the protection on it so that it can be added? 21:50, January 5, 2011 (UTC)

Shrieker's page already has it under "Appearances in Other Media" section with the movie prequel having its own subsection. I think we can move it down there instead. <font color="teal" size="2px">Arrancar109 <font color="teal" size="1px">(Talk)  04:52, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

Trivia
There was a bullet point before on the Trivia section that Szayel had more appearances on the Arrancar Encyclopedia in the anime (and even hosted one episode), compared to the other Espadas. I just thought it would be best mentioned back on the Trivia.Convert (talk) 10:42, December 2, 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, sign your posts. That trivia point was deleted because it was considered junk trivia, it adds nothing to the article. Trivia with content such as "character with the most" "character with the least" and such are considered junk trivia. No point in adding it back. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  04:13, December 3, 2010 (UTC)