Forum:Perceptions of Damage...

So I just have a quick observation that I noticed in the last chapter of the manga between Aizen and Yamamoto (396). It is somewhat assumed, by me at least, that Yamamoto is RELATIVELY equal to Aizen in terms of reiatsu and ability in most facets. So, if Yamamoto used an attack that is forbidden, sacrificial, and high-ranking as the #96, shouldn't Aizen be a bit more damaged than he ended up? It says on here that he "evaded" the flames, but how? Yamamoto was gripping his leg! Then Ichigo came in, with the same attack he's used 100's of times against weaker opponents, and did a very significant blow to Aizen. Of course Aizen was "open" at that time, but in most cases an attack like that, of near/equal reiatsu was deadly or ended the fight in one shot, or in some cases, like against Ulquirrora, he was simply able to just deflect it with one hand (yes Ichigo has gotten stronger, but how much is really yet to be determined)

I am working on my grad school papers and capstone project at the moment, so I don't want to spend too much time here, but this is not the first time we've seen wounds and damage that should have been extremely severe end up causing only minor injuries, whereas attacks that seemed minor and inconsequential were disastrous to even the strongest characters.

Can anyone explain this to me? I know some people have claimed that in the Bleach universe "normal" and "perceptions" should be thrown out, but I'm too logical for all of that...haha Orionradar 20:17, March 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Looks around for an admin and then decides to attempt to explain * Ehhem..

Wow.. thats a good question.. Genryusai did have Aizen sama practically trapped; yet he got away almost immediately with minor burns. Assuming Ichigo's hollowfied Getsuga Tensho ranks even remotely close to Genryusai's hado 96; then even so.. the damage should have been inconsequential. Bleach is inconsistent at best. For example.. Ichigo was able to draw with Kenpachi yet Hollowfied Ichigo had hell with Grimmhow, and Kenpachi beat Nnoitra albeit some real damage. I highly doubt Ichigo at 100% could have beaten Nnoitra. Some might argue that matchups determine the winner and not just overall power but I don't find that completely true. Kubo does the darnest things and then we are left puzzled. Captain Brooks 20:38, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

We assume that as time pasts that each character is getting stronger. Not just Ichigo. So Kenpachi could have gotten stonger as well. Then also Ichigo unleashes power that he trully has no control of when fighting those stronger then him. The power is there but not developed to the point he can unleash it when likes or at will. Now to answer your question. I believe the Hogyko (excuss the spelling) healed Aizen when Yama used the Hado just as when Ichigo hit him with the Getsuga Tensho. So the damage that he may have taken was still healed. So it is hard to say how much damage either attack would have done becuase he is being protected by the Stone. Tealang99 17:14, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

Ofcourse they get stronger; or else there would be no progress in the storyline. Even so; Ichigo's controlled hollow mask vs Grimmjow would definitely do more good than bad for him. I just find it hard to believe that Kenpachi got stronger than a Bankai Ichigo with a hollow mask.. when he was able to draw with Kenpachi. I was thinking the hogyoku healed Aizen immediately; the fact that Aizen had a slight burn on his left cheek when exiting the attack, and it dissappeared a few panels later would back this theory up. Captain Brooks 17:37, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

But lets not for get who we are talking about. Kenpachi stop a released Nijorita(Excuse the Spelling) with one swing. At that time Nijorita was alot stronger than Hollowed Ichigo at his current state. Now with his new mask we dont know how stronge Ichigo is but Kenpachi is said to have more power then the General himself. He not be as skilled as the General but his spiritual pressure beyond measure remember. Tealang99 17:58, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

He was stronger than a battle worn Ichigo with a broken arm.. but I think that a Hollowfied Ichigo in Bankai at 100% could possibly beat Nnoitra (I still stand by my belief that Bankai + Hollow mask is superior to Kenpachi in a few months.. even with a two handed swing.) I don't ever remember it being stated/ implied that Kenpachi has more power than Genryusai. You most likely meant physical strength but even that i am skeptical about. Kenpachi's spiritual pressure is great, but Ichigo's is also atleast twice that of the average captain, and he managed to draw with Kenpachi back in the Soul Society Arc. Lets not forget that Bankai gives someone 5 to 10 times as much power (as stated by Yoruichi). Captain Brooks 18:09, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

I do understand what you saying but let be honest. Ichigo should have lost to Kenpachi in there first meeting. We know what happened and even though Kenpachi gave him the win he still was no match. If Kenpachi wasnt so battle thirsty he could end each and every battle he begins unless he is fighting a experienced Captain such as Byakuya. And I beleive Kenpachi knows this and thats why he wants to fight him so bad. Same goes for Ichigo battle against Byakuya as well. He could have finished him off too just because of the inexperience and uncontroll Ichigo has over his true abilities. Now Im not saying that Ichigo cannot tap into his true pontential but right now he is unable to. Unless he is in a all or nothing situation. Tealang99 20:12, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

I agree Ichigo should have lost; but its not what should have happened.. but rather what did transpire. I disagree.. Kenpachi gave him the win but in reality it was a draw with Kenpachi falling seconds after him.You make sense with his potential.. but he has yet to be fully formally trained so its ok that he is the way he is. He is a shinigami for months while others are for decades. Its not fair to others for him to be on par with them in such a short(!!!!!!) amount of time. Captain Brooks 20:20, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, the way I see Aizen's escape goes back to how Kenpachi talked about if your spirit energy isn't focus enough then you can't cut him. So, using that logic, if a character was to focus there power then they could use it almost like a shield, which is what i think Aizen did. This explains the line about never catching him off guard, he was off guard because all his energy was focused on blocking the kido, but now that it's a one on one fight between the two, he's got complete focus.

As far as Ichigo beating kenpachi, i think the idea was that kenpachi was getting rusty and that after Ichigo beat him, he started seeking ways to become stronger (he talked about wanting to learn his swords name).

Please sign your posts (click signature at the top of the template.) Even if shinigami can block attacks with reiatsu; hado 96 from the strongest living shinigami should have done way more damage then a few burns. Rusty.. possibly. He did want to become stronger and obviously he did; but for him to become stronger than Hollow mask + Bankai would mean that he was reallllly holding back in the Soul Society arc, or he got impossibly stronger between that perioud and the Fake Karalura town arc. Captain Brooks 21:23, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

I think you are giving to much credit to Ichigo's Bankai and his Hollow Mask. Grimmjow and Ulquiorra have shown that his bankai and hollow mask are not as strong we and even he believed. I also beleive you are underestimating how strong Kenpachi really is as well. But like I said before with his new mask we dont where Ichigo stands right now. More than likely he is stronger than before but how much stronger we do not know. Tealang99 13:47, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about the no signing, I'm a tad behind on how to work this site. But i notice that Ichigo used his GT to scratch up a unreleased Grimmjow but didn't really do anything that bad to him. But then he goes and hits Aizen with the same attack plus a mask and it's implied that he could have killed him, and it cuts him pretty bad. I think it took everything to block the kido, which is why Ichigo could land such a hit. With Ichigo previous fights i think the big power gains and everything goes to the will. Ichigo never really had the will to fight or kill and that's why he's always weaker then his hollow counter part. Also, maybe Aizen will explain why Ichigo won those fights, he's implying that he's been in complete control this whole time. --Kulash05 19:56, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

Most of these theories are disregarding a few important facts.

1. Ichigo's power fluctuation. Back before he even went to Hueco Mundo, Ulquiorra stated Ichigo's reiatsu fluctuated from extremely low to higher than even his own. This coincides, I believe, at least partly with his resolve and fear of his inner hollow. Against Kenpachi the first time, not only was he focused on saving Rukia, but he was remarkably in-tune with Zangetsu and extremely confident when the final blow came. He hadn't had any reason to be concerned about the Hollow yet, there.

2. His growth rate. The curbstomp Hichigo vs. Ulquiorra battle resulted in crazy amounts of reiatsu flowing through his body. I believe this kicked his growth rate into overdrive, since his power wasn't noted as so much higher than captain-level before being healed. Even if people weren't paying attention, they'd have noticed that much power walking around. Especially considering the lack of control Ichigo has over it. This accounts for a small part of how he injured Aizen.

3. The power of Ryuujin Jakka. IIRC, a large portion of that power was released in an explosion after Wonderweiss fell. This was a nearly nuclear-sized explosion, and Yamamoto contained it with his body to something smaller than a city block. That is going to cause a bit of injury. I believe that would've substantially reduced the damage he could cause with such a spell. On top of that, the natural panic reaction at something like that, with no time to respond, might've caused the Hogyoku to protect him to some extent. It's healing abilities would not have hurt things, either. Ichigo's attack, while not giving much more response time, would not have instilled the same kind of reaction considering the power gap between Ichigo and Yamamoto.

Besides those, the "rusty" theory is valid, imo. Kenpachi vs. Ichigo wasn't much for equal fighting, while Nnoitra vs. Kenpachi lasted quite a while at a very high level. Ratiqu 22:28, April 22, 2010 (UTC)