Talk:Zommari Rureaux/Archive 1

Fraccion
I edited the Trivia fact about him not having any Fraccion. Originally it said that Starrk didn't have any Fraccion either. That is, however, not true, as Lliynette is his Fraccion. Ridler1 07:48, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

That trivia has since been removed entirely but for the record. No starrk does not have a Fraccion. Starrk has stated a number of times that Lilynette is just himself and Lilynette has also made similar claims. She is not listed as Starrk's fraccion in Starrk's page but as a second being. We had a long, long discussion about this and all manga based sources point to the fact that Starrk and Lilynette do not have a Espada-fraccion relationship. Tinni 08:49, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Again, just for the record, but if you ask me their relationship is like Kenpachi-Yachiru - they're more friends than a leader and subordinate, Yachiru is much weaker than the 3rd seat (from what we've seen), but still - he is a Captian, and she is his Vice-Captain. That's why I think that despite the fact that they are one she is still technically his Fraccion, although nobody acknowledges that.

Release
Zommari's release in the anime was activated with "Quash" in the Sub episode I watched. Is there a reason for the difference between that and this article?--Kylecharmed 00:09, September 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * The most likely reason is because they sort of fuck up the subs when they first translate the release commands. Like in the japanese subs for Mila-Rose's release it was "Devour Everything" and Sun-Sun's was "Strangle them to Death" when we know that is simply "devour" and "strangle to death". "Quash is a little stange, though, but sort of makes sense as his release looks somewhat like a pumpkin.

I don't understand a word of japanese, so I don't know how the translations of the characters work, but in english Quash and Suppress mean pretty much the same thing (for the benefit of those who don't know), so it's up to the whims of the translator after that I suppose. TomServo101 23:06, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Trivia
In the trivia it states that Zommari died without knowing his opponents name. This is incorrect as he learned Byakuya's name from Hanataro & even calls him Byakuya. I'll wait 1 week for someone to reply or i'll just go ahead & change this. Minato88 22:19, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

I'll look into it when I get time. Arrancar109 22:57, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Minato's technically correct (the best kind of correct). Though Byakuya didn't give his name, Hanataro does call him Kuchiki-taichou. Yet, after Rukia was controlled by Zommari's Amor, he still calls Byakuya "nameless captain". So is this like a push? Don't know.--Shinitenshi 17:35, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * After looking it over, I have to say that Hanataro does sayByakuya's name while Zommari is near enough tro hear it. Whether or not he was paying attention is unknown to me. I think Zommari was paying attention, and knows the name of the Captain who killed huim, but just doesn't care, or doesn't regard him as worthy enough of calling him by name. He probably knows Byakuya's name, but pays no atte4ntion to it, in other words.

Thank U for responding to my earlier post. I'm now a little curious, should we change the Trivia or leave it? Minato88 16:14, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I think we should change it. If wer'e going to even have the trivia on the page, we might as well have it be correct, don't you think? I shall go and change it now. Oh, and you're welcome! ^^

Zommrai and Starrk's sonido
Alright, just because I don't want to keep having this conversation through edit summaries. Yes I am aware that Starrk "seems" faster then Zommari. But Starrk never had Zommari's opponent: Byakuya. Starrk first displayed shunpo against Ichigo who has rudamentary shunpo only and Zaraki who only used shunpo once in a movies. So just because neither of them could catch Starrk doesn't mean someone else in their position couldn't have intercepted Starrk. Secondly, Starrk went up against Shunsui and yes Starrk kept up with Shunsui. But both were just using basic shunpo skills while Zommari forced Byakuya to use a special hoho technique. Anyway, the point is that Byakuya is known for his shunpo skills. I never heard Shunsui having anything extraordinary except for that one time Yama-jii commented that Shunsui could travel a great distance with just one flash step. Not sure how that compares to Byakuya but the point is unless Starrk had the SAME opponent we can't really measure him and Zommari accurately. As such, saying Zommari exaggerated because Starrk could keep-up is pure speculation and should be left out of the wiki. If people want to speculate that Zommari was exaggerating so be it but we don't have to codify said speculation. Tinni 23:19, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

So can we put it in the trivia or would it be deleted. In the following paragraph, don't think of my capitalizing things as an insult. I just don't like Byakuya.
 * With that said I think it should be stated an exaggeration(Cause in my opinion there were at least 3 Espada faster then Zommari). Yes Byakuya is fast, but in my opinion is not as fast as Shunsui. The truth is we really don't know how fast Shunsui is. We have seen him move at unbelievably speeds, which caused Yamamoto to praise his skill. I feel I should point out that Yamamoto has never openly praised ANYONE else(aside from Jushiro, & then it was only his Zanpakuto he praised). We saw Byakuya get totally schooled by Yoruichi & even Ichigo was able to keep up with him while only in his Shikai(once he went Bankai until he started slowing down Byakuya could hardly follow his movements(the first of which he COULDN'T SEE at all)let alone keep up with them). Also it was Zommaris speed which forced Byakuya to use a tech he learned from Yoruichi(In my opinion Zommari released when he really didn't need to since Byakuyas constant insults aggravated him). I know this is just speculation, but Ichigo in Bankai & Hollowfied was matched by Grimmjow while Released(& in the living world his sword was still sealed). & Ulquiorra completewly dominated Ichigo(While in Bankai & Hollowified). So i'm sorry, but Byakuyas speed has been exaggerated by his obnoxious pride. Minato88 00:28, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

That's my point exactly, it's all speculation either way. The power as worded now makes it explicit that Zommari was the one who made the claim. This is fact. Whether he exaggerated, whether there are other faster them him are all irrelevant. We don't know any of those thing for certain. He claimed he was the fastest, we wrote down "he claimed he was the fastest". It is not up to us to provide speculative commentary on his claims. Tinni 00:33, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

Hollows need to eat souls to survive
Seriously, where did this come from? When did anyone, anywhere say that hollow need souls to "survive". They don't NEED souls to survive. They eat souls to fill the void inside them that is created from the feelings of fear, regret or whatever it was that caused them to become hollows in the first place. In fact, I qoute from Chapter 284 page 5, "In order to bury the heart they have lost and quench the dry soul they are left with, hollow eat human souls". As far as I can tell, it's like an incurable addiction. They aren't going to die just because they stop feeding their drug habit, they'll just feel like crap. Sure things are different for Menos level hollows but Menos level hollows don't eat human souls, they eat other hollows to stop themselves from regressing. As such I am putting back the comment about him contradicting himself about Hollowing not being "evil". He's evil, he might not think he is but there is no good reason for him to do what he does. Tinni 20:39, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Hm. I didn't think you'd make such a big deal out of a few words being deleted, but I digress. You are correct - I misinterpreted their need for souls. Mohrpheus 23:17, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Episode 144. Ichigo says & I qoute "Don't Hollows have to constantly eat human souls to survive". Hollows are essentially Humans who have, well changed. Still just because of the change, that doesn't mean hollows souls should be different from humans. Minato88 07:59, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

And Ichigo is an expert on Hollows since when exactly? And yes hollow souls are different from human souls. But last I looked Shinigami who killed hollows didn't "destroy their soul" but sent the original pulse to soul society. On the other hand, a hollow who consumes a human soul either turns it into a hollow or let's it fester inside itself. Anyway, this discussion has probably already turned into something that belongs in the forums. Hollows are evil period. They attack innocent, defence less humans (both living and dead). They prefer to consume the soul of shinigami because they have higher spiritual power. Shinigami are just defending themselves and humans who cannot defend themselves. In addition, they help hollows the best they can by purifying them and helping them move on to soul society. Those are the facts as stated in the manga. What spin you put on it to try and make hollow the "good guys" or at least the "sympathetic guys" is entirely your business. Just don't put it in the wiki. Tinni 08:35, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Well, Tinni I see your mad at me about the blog arguments. I didn't mean anything personal, just a difference in our point of views. On this talk page u asked when it was stated & I answered. Also, DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH OR IN THIS CASE TYPE THINGS I DIDN'T. I NEVER SAID IN MY LAST COMMENT THAT HOLLOWS WERE GOOD OR SYMPATHETIC. I said & i quote myself "CHANGED. Just because their physical appearence, powers, & personality have changed DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEIR SOULS ARE DIFFERENT. We saw Sora Inoue, even as a hollow HE WAS STILL SORA INOUE. Alos are u telling me all humans are honorable & attack only those who can defend themselves(cause thats a bunch of BULLSHIT). Open up a history book & read what the Romans did to people(DEFENSELESS PEOPLE). With all this said i'm really not mad(I'm too lazy to be mad)& I still think u are a good editor & I still like u. Minato88 09:12, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

sigh this is why I said "this discussion has probably already turned into something that belongs in the forum". I wasn't aiming anything personally at you and certainly stopped addressing you comment after the "ichigo is an expert on hollows since when exactly?" question. I was merely ending this debate by stating the facts from the manga. I am not mad at you for anything. I don't get bad at people for comments on blog pages or talk pages or anything like that. Secondly, it is irrelevant what humans do or don't do. Fact remains, that the actions of the Shingami against the hollows are justified because hollows are aggressors period. If a pulse after turning into hollow simply went on it's merry way to Heuco Mundo and never showed itself on either the living world or soul society, the shinigami wouldn't give a damn. It's because they attack others after they become hollows that the shinigami get involved. So please stop bringing useless things into this discussion. I started this section because certain words got removed from Zommari's personality section because of erroneous reasoning that significantly altered the tone of the personality section. I gave my justification and put the words back. I am not interested in discussing this issue further here as it has nothing to do with the article. That is all there is to it. Tinni 09:27, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

"However, his views are contradictory, as by consuming human souls to fill the void within them, Hollows commit evil acts themselves and thus can be considered evil as well." Yeah, I don't think that should be in his personality section, heck I think it should be in Trivia at best. Good and evil comes from perspective. I'm sure the Hollows think of themselves as "good" and consider the Shinigami "evil", but the Shinigami and the Humans (well those that know Hollows exist) consider them evil and the opposite is true as well. It should be removed.Grimmjow2 10:23, November 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * Let me think... NO. This is not a question of perspective. Hollows are the aggressor, the Shinigami and the humans are the ones on the defence. Therefore, no matter how you look at it, the hollows are EVIL. Heck, even hollows don't deny they are evil. Arrancars are different because they have a logical mind and they can be good or evil and all shades of grey inbetween. But your run of the mill hollow is a monster that exists to consume and destroy and spread loss and despair. Zommari wasn't talking about arrancars, he was talking about hollows in general and in general hollows are evil regardless of perspective. Zommari knew this but in his fear and despair he just said whatever came to his mind. I am sick of having this discussion over and over and over with people who want to paint Soul Society as evil. Take it to the blogs, not even the forums because we have a rule against crack theory for the forums. So let me repeat, NO. The words stay because it reveals an insight into Zommari's personality and gives context to his claims. Tinni 10:56, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Nice point Tinni :). But if the hollows are mindless monsters, how can they be evil? To be evil means you have to have the intellect to do so. I really don't think it should be included in his personality section as it may lead readers, that is, make them think of his character in a certain way (I don't think I explained this correctly???). If it won't be removed, at least re-word it without the use of "evil".Grimmjow2 17:32, November 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * Hollow might be driven by instinct being as they are the personification of all negative traits within humans but given they are said to be personification of negative traits mean that they can be called evil, mindless or not! In fact, Hollows are exactly like serial killers. Many of whom also say that they feel "compelled" to kill. We don't not call serial killers evil, there is no reason to not call Hollows evil. The acts and deeds of Hollows are considered evil by most inhabitants of the Bleach verse and the Kubo himself has used the word. Therefore, we are not changing it. Tinni 01:10, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

"Kubo himself has used the word."- why didn't you say that in the first place? That line kinda makes this ENTIRE debate pointless. Well, I'm terribly sorry for wasting you're time Tinni, no hard feelings. :) Anyway, let's stick with evil then.......Grimmjow2 21:50, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Junk trivia clean-up
Removed trivia


 * Zommari is one of four Espada whose Zanpakutō (Brujería) has the same name as a real-world band. The others are Coyote Starrk, Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez, and Yammy Rialgo.

Irrelevant


 * Zommari is one of the four Espada not to have any Fracción. He shares this trait with Aaroniero, Yammy Rialgo and Ulquiorra Cifer.

Actually its Five Espada as Starrk doesn't have a Fraccion since Lylinette is a "second being"/part of himself. That alone is a good indication that this trivia is more trouble then its worth because my attention was drawn to his trivia section when someone removed Starrk's name from the list of non-fraccion espada.


 * Zommari is one of the few Espada to not have his tattoo or Hollow hole shown. Their locations remain a mystery.

Does anyone care?


 * Zommari is one of the only four Espada who has not had any of his background revealed before or even after his death, the others being Luppi, Ulquiorra Cifer, and Tia Harribel. However, he does seem to know that Aaroniero is the last of the original Espada, but it is unknown if Zommari was also one of the original Espada.

He doesn't have a history section and seriously this "one of" type trivia really aren't all that useful.

If you disagree with the assessment of any of the above trivia as junk, please make your case. But do not re-add before explaining why you think they should be re-added. Tinni 08:46, October 23, 2009 (UTC)