Forum:Official Shinigami Discussions

Here you can discuss any topics about Shinigami in general. Feel free to add new topics below. However any new topics created outside this thread will be removed and their content add here. --Yyp 12:39, November 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * For discussions about Kido, please post in the Forum:Kido
 * For discussions about Shunko, please post in the Forum:Shunko
 * For discussions about Bankai, please post in the Forum:Bankai Discussion

Captain level?
alright so could some 1 pleas explain to me how strong some has to be to be considered captain level?is renji at  captian level cause he has a bankai?reson im askin is vaste lorde are suposs to twice as strong as a captain level soul  reaper so i mean being twice as strong as renji isnt that strongDigital Reaper 09:18, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

There is no set definition of how strong you have to be to be considered at captain level. It's a very subjective term. It would encompass all areas of shinigami skills and talents including level of reiatsu. As far as fighting skill, Renji would be considered Captain level, mainly because of his bankai and Master swordmanship talents, but his use of shunpo, his reiatsu, and his kido are far inferior to most captains. I would say Renji has captain-class potential, but currently isn't at that level yet (and I'm sure some will disagree with me) and I would also say the EXACT same thing for Ikkaku using the same scale. They are almost equal in their skills, except Renji has better command of Kido (but that's not saying too much) and maybe Ikkaku is a better fighter...but not by much (He did train Renji after all). The argument you could make is that the only people that are truly "captain class" are those that already have Haori's because they took the captain's exam (excluding Kenpachi) and passed. Although that then excludes Ichigo...but he's a separate case altogether...Orionradar 13:45, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

Since we are following the Fake Karakura Town story, we saw Espadas dying. I wondered what if some shinigamis had to be killed which ones I won't regret by classifying them from the worst to the best captain by potential evolution's rate, like this: the 7 last ones still have to answer some of our questions.
 * 1) Soifon: she's such boring, needless to say, lacks charisma
 * 2) Kaname Tosen: blah blah justice... boring
 * 3) Byakuya Kuchiki: saw to often, does he still have something to show?
 * 4) Yoruichi Shihoin: at least show us some sword skills
 * 5) Retsu Unohana: inconspicuous
 * 6) Tessai Tsukabishi: inconspicuous, too
 * 7) Sajin Komamura: for the moment to weak to be a powerhouse
 * 8) Rojuro otoribashi: for the moment, as a vizard not really interesting
 * 9) Love Aikawa: the same
 * 10) Mayuri Kurotsuchi: mad scientist
 * 11) Toshiro Hitsugaya: saw to often too, but has huge potential.
 * 12) Kensei Muguruma: badass
 * 13) Sosuke Aizen: show some skills instead of playing the big mouth
 * 14) Genryusai Shigekuni Yamamoto: for his bankai?
 * 15) Jushiro Ukitake
 * 16) Shinji Hirako
 * 17) Isshin Kurosaki
 * 18) Gin Ichimaru
 * 19) Shunsui Kyoraku
 * 20) Kisuke Urahara
 * 21) Kenpachi Zaraki


 * Ace of Spade, please sign your posts. As for the topic of discussion, having become tapped out as a character - Tosen Kaname died. Will other Shinigami follow? Maybe, maybe not. I have no doubt that in the near future the majority of the shinigami and vizards current in Fake Karakura will be at deaths door. Just because Ichigo is on his way and if Ichigo arrives on the field of battle with Aizen, Gin and Wonderweiss already dead then him arriving is meaningless. However, I don't anyone of them will die or at least die permanently. Bleach does not have the tone to support such deaths. It is getting darker. In SS no one died. Even Aizen returned. But the espada are dead and now Tosen is dead. So Bleach is getting darker. Will it ever get dark enough to have a shattered and broken Gotei 13, with the survivors huddling in caves, trying there best to regroup and counter attack against a man with unlimited hollows under his command? I don't know but I believe that is not Bleach. Soul Society cannot fall and the Gotei 13 cannot be smashed. It would disrupt things too much and Bleach is not a dystopian war story. Tinni 09:31, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

For the sake of staying on topic, I have moved all conversation pertaining to Tosen's death to Forum:Kaname_tosen. Please keep conversation in this section about potential future death among the shinigami. Tinni 15:43, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Lower-ranked Shinigami are Useless?
This topic is a continuation of an earlier thread. Feel free to keep adding to the debate, or review the previous discussions above. --Yyp 13:21, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Double Bladed Zanpakuto
In the soul society arc, Yamamoto mentions that Katen and Kotowari are the only double bladed zanpakuto, yet Shuhei has one as well. I'm confused, do you think this oculd be a mistake on Kubo's part?

I think it's because Shuhei has double weapons, but not double blades. Ukitake and Kyoraku have double swords, Shuhei has double sickle-type of weapons. Akeki 18:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah i think it's the nature by which he wields the blades. when he attacks he tends to throw one of the blades and then holds onto the other, so its more like a whip then two swords. Both of the captains hold the swords with both hands at all time's during there attacks or use.

There's no mistakes except the formulation between Blade and sword or weapon, then before or after shikai. Shunsui and Ukitake have 2 separate swords/weapons, but Shuhei has one double-edge bladed weapon after shikai, Ikkaku as well. when his bow splits in three in shikai and bankai modes.Baronofash 13:44, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Err...Isn't Ukitake's shikai connected by a rope as well? To me that would put it in the same category as Shuhei's. PS Do you think Yama's even seen Shuhei's, hence the remark way back? TomServo101 13:47, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I would correct myself then. Before shikai only Shunsui and Ukitake have two swords. And remain still 2 swords after shikai. Ukitake's swords are connected with a rope to compare with Hisagi or Ikkaku's weapons connected with a chain. I imagine that Shunsui and Ukitake's two zampakutos, as well as Stark's 2 guns have probably different powers. I was surprised to see in the Muramasa's arc that Katenkyokotsu is represented by one woman and Sogyo no Kotowari by two kids (note that the parchment they hold could be the cord connecting the swords of Ukitake).Baronofash 14:59, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually in the latest bleach episode it is revealed that Katen Kyokotsu is represesented by two women

Actually Katen Kokatsu is the only zanpakuto that exists as two swords sealed and in shikai. Sogyo no Kotowari exists as two swords only in shikai. They are represented by Yamamoto as being the only double bladed zanpakuto. Now lets mention this was in the soul society arc. Hisagi's was presented until the fake karakura town arc so he had to come up with it later on compared to Ukitake and Shunsui's also even if yama knows what would it matter Hisagi as not a captain. Also It technically has more then one blade but it is represented in two separate weapons while in shikai, which is basically the point of the classification. Ikkaku's doesnt come into play as its by and large a spear/naginata that breaks apart into a three section staff-like weapon but it is not double-edged in any case or even seperate like Ukitakte, shunsui, and hisagi. Also presented as spirits Katen Kokatsu is represented as a woman as it is still only one spirit representing two blades. Sogyo no kotowari is presented as two identical twins representing the connection between the blade form with the ropes connecting them but they are still one spirit just in double form. zanpakuto's arent verified as stocking up on multiple spirits.Salubri 18:54, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The Commander-in-Chief of the Onmitsukidō vs. the Captain-Commander of the Gotei 13
I'm really confused about this. Although the Gotei 13 and the Onmitsukidō are separate military branches of Soul Society, the Gotei 13 still seems superior to the other two branches.

In a sense, should Soifon be equal to that of Yamamoto and the Grand Kidō Chief? Yet, Soifon seems to be answerable to Yamamoto (well, she is a Captain). Hypothetically, if Yamamoto gave her an order that she was unhappy with, could she invoke her position as Commander-in-Chief to deliberately disobey the order?

I think the other two branches should have been given a leader as strong as Yamamoto.Animeluvr92 02:31, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

The concept i think your forgetting is that Yamamoto is the Captain-Commander or General. Therefore he has military seniority and position over all the branches of military. The Kido Captain and Commander-in-Chief are still below his title regardless of holding power over their own branches of military. His position is more important he controls the over all Gotei 13 and can act as the main executive/legislative/judiciary authority in the absence of the Central 46 Chambers as he currently does. He also is the only one who knows where the royal key is hidden. Im sure he has no right to command the Kido Corps or the Stealth Force directly as he could with the Gotei 13, and its more then likely that do to his high position the leaders of both branches defer to him out of respect. Soifon is a special case seeing as she is also a captain and since because of that one stealth force is tied to the Gotei 13 and considering the Gotei 13 takes precedent over that branch because of its prominence as the main offense and defense as well as Shinigami dealing in soul burials. Seeing that she is a captain he can command her and her other organization apparently. Though I think it would have been interesting to see other leaders as strong as Yamamoto its obviously not the case. Three ancient powerful leaders would have been awesome.Salubri 03:36, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps Tessai has a bit of power behind him? His Hadō 88 was impressive, as was his forbidden Kidō, and hell, first thing we saw him do was a Bakudō 99. We've seen some impressive things from Kidō experts like Momo, so think of what the Grand Kidō Captain could do. One eye 14:47, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Ultimately the other two seem to have the job of supporting the 13 companies, who easily compose the bulk of Soul Society's power, to the point where if their captains fall, the Soul Society itself is vulnerable. I'm sure in some conditions Soi Fon or the Kido captain could refuse a request from Yamamoto, probably bumping it up to the 46, but in general authority and with emergency situations he outranks them, so that'll rarely be the case. ZeroSD 14:58, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

If the other branches are "supporters" of the Gotei 13, why aren't they in Fake Karakura by helping? Or, are they like a last line of defense of some sort in the case they lose? Oh, and if Aizen were to succeed, and create the Õken, does he have to go through Soul Society to get there, or can he just open up the portal/gateway directly from the World of the Living? (I know, the second question is a little pointless - just curious.) --Animeluvr92 18:53, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

Don't Understand Death after Death
Hi, I am confused about whether or not Shimigami are alive or dead. Also are the people in Rukongai alive or dead? Did Rukia's friends from Rukongai die twice? Are they coming back? Thanks Dilithiumtoys 14:19, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

It's my understand that Rukia was alive as a human, and when she died as a human, she went to the Rukongai. Now, if she died as a Shinigami, her soul would be reborn back on the real world, and essentially, she'd be human again, but it wouldn't be the Rukia we see and know, as she would have no memories of her previous life. She'd likely not be named Rukia and might not even have the same appearance when she was reborn.

Then, there are characters like Byakuya who were born as a Shinigami, and never were human. As far as what happens to him after he dies (if his soul becomes human and he's reborn as a human, like Rukia), I'm not entirely sure. Twocents 16:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

How do we know Byakuya was never a human? I don't think it's ever been stated.

We don't know in what state a soul arrives; if they're the same age as whe they die or as babies in the conventional way or what, or if it's even consistent, plus we don't know the effect what being eaten by a Hollow does to a soul (could it be that it acts like a blender, and new souls could be created when it's purified?). TomServo101 17:04, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Well according to the character guide the process is basic reincarnation. You die and then sent to soul society and then at a later time you are reborn into a new life/body in the living world with no memory of your past. Pluses and shinigami are spirits they are no longer living. Families separated by death are rarely reunited in the soul society. people live nestles together like a family of strangers. Seireitei is the only place that the shinigami and aristocrats live. The aristocrats are born in the seireitei and they live their entire lives within the soul society. They are refined and born with strong spiritual powers. Now Rukia was born and then died as a baby and brought to soul society where she was raised in rukongai, it was mainly through the intervention of byakauya and the fact that she possessed spiritual powers that allowed her to leave. Byakuya on the other hand being a noble was born in the seireitei and has lived his life there. He has never been a living being, hence the noble status, the same for yoruichi. Though in death considers he is still a soul he would most likely be either subject to the same rules as any spirit and is reborn in the world of the living or because of his high level of spiritual power become spirit particles added onto soul society similar to what kaien says happens when a shinigmai/noble does.Salubri 18:38, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying that some people (the nobles) skip the living world phase and just return to 'life' as someone else? Or am I misunderstanding you? TomServo101 21:35, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

It's my understanding that nobles are simply born in Soul Society. For example, in the Rukongai, people have "families" but they're not actually related. However, Byakuya is actually Ginrei's grandchild. Souls have can their own children, as well, such as seen in the noble families, and they're simply born as souls. I'm not sure I'd think of it as skipping a phase, but more as starting at a different point in a circle. Does that make sense? Twocents 22:24, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Well it would seem any soul with another can have a child born into soul society. In doing so they have never truly touched the living world. So yes those people Byakuya, Yoruichi, Shunsui, Ukitake, Izuru, Kaien, Ganju, Soifon and probably others were born in the Seireitei or have lived in soul society all their lives. They are not common souls from the deceased of the living world. Now when they die, its totally up in there air as what happens but to add new souls to the universal cycle would also make the most sense considering that recycling the same souls can't add anything new as well the souls tainted by becoming hollows who have been left unclean or those souls ate by hollows or sent to hell.Salubri 06:08, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Wonder if
the Soul King has anything to do with souls being able to born without ever being in the cycle of life. It has been suggested before that the author of bleach has a decidedly "real-world" religious spin on his musings (writings). In most religions an all powerful being exists. Through the sheer power of that being, life is born, like embers coming off of a fire. I wonder if the same is for the nobility. May they simply are proximal remnants of the power of the Soul King.

Not a bad idea. Depends I guess.

I always figured that children being born in the Soul Society to Pluses and Shinigami was just the universes way of introducing brand spanking new souls to balance out those lost to predation by Hollows or destruction by abilities like the Quincy bow. They are born, live, and die in Soul Society like any other soul after that and are reborn in the living world thus keeping things balanced in in the reincarnation cycle.

Having them be sparks fallen from the Soul King's existence is as good a source for these new souls as any. Great Cthulhu 01:32, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

To understand the concepts of death in Bleach, I advise U to read some books about Shinto and Bouddhism, or Japanese mythology which are the inspirations of Tite Kubo along some Christian concepts references.Baronofash 12:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Eh, who knows? He doesn't get in the affairs of Soul Society, so there could be two explanations. One, he doesn't get in the affairs because he is doing and all-important task. Two, he just doesn't care. The latter question also makes me wonder as to what type of person the Spirit King is. His personality could be so... --Animeluvr92 18:56, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait, never mind. I just read the article and it cleared up some questions for me. --Animeluvr92 18:59, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

Where do they go after they die?
Just as the title says, my question: where do shinigamis go when they die?
 * Their reincarnated back in the living world like all souls. Salubri 23:29, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I dont think they do. I thought that Kaien told Rukia that soul reapers become part of the matter that makes up all the objects and buildings in the soul society. Thats why he said he never wanted her to die alone, because nobody could see her again.--Kylecharmed 18:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Urahara stated that they are reborn to the Human World in order to maintain the balance. They are no different from regular souls in that sense. RecklessFire 19:22, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

When Kenpachi and Komamura were fighting during the Soul Society Arc, in the manga version, Kenpachi states that, "If we die, we'll just change a little and then we'll be able to fight again!", and as far as I am concerned, the manga is the highest level of canon info in Bleach, over the anime. Due to what Kenpachi said, I belive they become hollows when they die. Then they are defeated and 'recycled' by other Soul Reapers. The thought of a Hollow Kenpachi.... scares the crap out of me. --Ulquiorra Wannabe128 13:36, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Not right, Kenpachi said: "Even if you died, come back as a ghost to fight me once again!!" if I remember well. Sometimes translation is not accurate.Baronofash 14:54, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

That is serious fan fiction that cant be backed in any way. This issue has been talked to death and with backed up info and that is by far has nothing to do with the series and whats it about its not even speculation.Salubri 13:50, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Zanpakuto... part of a Shinigami' soul or a completely separate spirit?
i was watching some of the older eps and i started to wonder. what if Zanpakuto were not always part of a Shinigami' s soul. but during some point in that Shinigami' s life the Zanpakuto spirit chose to be partners with that Shinigami. this would explain why Shinigami have so much energy even before becoming Shinigami. one reason i thought this was i believe it has been hinted at that Soifon has the same Zanpakuto as Yoruichi did. maybe Yoruichi gave it to Soifon. another reason is something Zangetsu hinted at not being strong enough on his own to be a Shinigami tell me what you think Darkgoku 10:52, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know, man. It's been hinted that a Zanpakuto is part of a Shinigami's soul and all. They should fight as one, blah blah. I don't see facts that could support your theory. And as for Yoruichi never carrying a Zanpakuto (except for one time, I think I read it was when Soifon was having a flashback of when she met Yoruichi), I think she just relies more on her mastery of shunpo and her knowledge of shunko. Notice that Urahara never carries Benihime in the flashback arc except when he slashes the lieutenant band from Aizen's arm? If he hadn't trained Ichigo or fight a few people, he would've been the one with all the mystery "How does he know all that about the Shinigami?" "Hmm, is that cane a Zanpakuto, like Yama-ji's?" Deimonos 12:40, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

First no one ever said that Shinigami were born with their zanpakuto they develop it later on along with the development of their spiritual power. We also have note that somewhere at that time the spirit of the zanpakuto begins communication with the future wielder. To say that they can choose is speculation cause there is no way to know or prove that. Also Nobles are born with high spiritual energy without having to be Shinigami and those who also have high enough spiritual energy are encouraged to join their ranks, where in the academy they are taught to control it. Also upon joining that academy they already have their zanpakuto but apparently aren't capable of releases at that time. As advancement in that area is a more personal matter. So they have considerable spiritual power well before the zanpakuto and even before actually having one, that power is only evident upon release. Secondly thats completely wrong there was never a hint of Soifon having Yoruichi's zanpakuto that makes no sense. In the soul society arc between the two, Thats never said on the anime and it is mistranslated on the manga and even then in the conversation it made no sense. Soifon in fact was telling her the abilities of the zanpakuto and what it was capable of, if it was originally her's she would have know that also she wouldnt have been able to become a captain without gaining bankai. Thats entirely not true she just doesn't use it as Deimonos said she prefers shunpo and hakuda. Also unless you have proof somewhere that Zangetsu said such a thing, which i am sure he didn't its not a relevant point to your theory.Salubri 15:50, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Interesting that this topic was brought up. Back when Kenpachi met and named Yachiru, the sword he had with him was his Zanpakuto, which is an error most likely beacuse this was a long while before he became a Shinigami, therefore he couldn't have had a zanpakuto back then. Orochidayu 18:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Why not? It was never satted that you had to join the Gotei 13 or be in the acdemy to have an zanpukto, the fact that Ichigo has his own is proof enough. Besides we don't how every main character shinigami gaon their zanpukto, we know the circumstances around Zaraki or much about his life before he joined the SS.Saimaroimaru 18:33, 17 August 2009 (UTC)