Talk:Yhwach/Archive 1

Move to Vandenreich leader
Leader should be lowercase as it isn't a proper noun. maggosh 17:30, April 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't see the point in moving it. The page will likely be moved in a few weeks to a proper name and in titles, it is common to capitalize all nouns. No rules against doing so.--
 * Unnamed Vandenreich member maggosh 05:23, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Again, there is no rules one way or the other, the person who made that article decided to name it that way, Yyp decided to go with one way. Names will be given for both eventually and we will move them to the proper names then, no need to create a mass of redirects over a capital letter.--

Blut
When fighting Ayon, Kirge noted that the Vandenreich leader should increase the strength of their Blut while snapping his head and neck into their proper places (xD), implying that he also has this ability and can manipulate it to greater levels. Shouldn't he be stated as Blut user, at least of it's defensive variant? Darksusanoo (talk) 15:16, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Any proper reply would be welcomed...thank you. Darksusanoo (talk) 17:39, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

Assuming anything would be speculation - we have no idea what Kirge meant when he said that. Until we see the leader use it himself it's not going on the page. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  22:29, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

Name
Until we get his real name, i think it would be better to name him temporarily "Vandenreich Emperor'. He is specifically called as such in chapter 490. besides, the Vandenreich is a very legit organization rather than a rag tag group, so Emperor sounds better than just "Leader".--Vanden reich117 (talk) 23:52, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * He is specifically called that in one scanlation. Most have him as just being called the leader, which is what we will be leaving it as until he is named.--
 * It is worth mentioning that in Ch 505, his name is listed as ユーハバッハ, or Yuuhabahha. His name is taken from Johann Sebastian Bach. Though "Johann" is typically written in Japanese as "ヨハン" (Yohan) or "ヨーハン" (Youhan), this is typically for those of German origin. The Swedish "Johann" is written in Japanese as "ユーハン" (Yuuhan). "バッハ" (Bahha) is Bach. Potential translations include:


 * 1. Juhabach 2. Johabach 3. Yūhabach 4. Jūhabach


 * I should note that there is not a space inbetween "Yuuha" and "Bahha"--it's all one word. L44021 (talk) 14:43, August 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * So basically what your saying is that his name is Johann Bach. --
 * No. There's no "N" added to the end, nor is there a space between "Joha" and "Bach." His name is taken from Johann Bach, but they are not the same. L44021 (talk) 14:49, August 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * So its Joha Bach as its been translated.--


 * Terribly complicated. There's no "n" in katakana, but "Johan/Johann" sounds better than "Juha" (but it doesn't matter). Why Kubo don't give us romanji, like NaNaNa or Bambietta? It should also be noted that Ivan is now Ebern... Only Kubo knows which name of Leader is good. Should we ask him? :D http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/bleach/pl/images/a/a6/Ofkorse_podpis.png (profile) 14:59, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Johan Sebastian Bach is from my country XD..... Maybe we will get translation in next chapter.... I would say he is: Juha Bach or Juhann Bach (both are German-Finnish names, In japanese it could be Juhan or Jouhan) We could say he is Juhann Bach (Or Juhabach or Juhan Bach etc.) and change the name after proper translate. In Finland we say Johan, but in english and german he is Johann, so.... Johann would be pretty good. And Juha is name in Finland, finnish names are usually strange to japanese and german. (Silverwing (talk) 15:29, August 29, 2012 (UTC))

Mangastream refers to him as "Yuhabaha". Just pointing that out.--Starship Model Ezekiel (An audience with Master...?) 21:34, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * We are aware. However, neither MangaStream nor mangapanda have a good history with translation. We are waiting for our translators before making any changes.--
 * Alright, just checking that in--Starship Model Ezekiel (An audience with Master...?) 22:16, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

It's obvious his name is Johann Bach after the german composer. Even more obvious given the german theme of the Rebel Army.Councilor &#39;Rumilee (talk) 23:47, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * How is that "obvious". Please show me where it says his name is Johann Bach. Please, show me how the katakana written on the raw translate to Johann Bach. If you cannot provide such proof then do not bother stating such things.--

I translated the raw and the last name is definetly Bach, the first name however is an issue. The Katakana for Johan Bach is ヨハン·ゼバスティアン·バッハ which is similar to the raw here []. I think Kubo probably mean Johan, but until we see an official romanization from Kubo or from shonen jump alpha, there is no real way to tell.

-- 00:01, August 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Quick question - Why his name is separatwd in two words? The raw suggests otherwise --Nekosama (talk) 09:16, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Unlike English, in traditional Japanese there are no spaces between words, they are only spaced in language textbooks to help foreigners learn the language more easily. For example,"Hello my name is John Smith would be こんにちは私の名前はジョン ・ スミスです. -- 12:07, August 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Didn't all the other Vandenreich names have dots in between their names when written in katakana?--B14 (talk) 12:52, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to add a fourth "name" topic post here, but I do it at the request of Salubri and God--no small authority, eh? XD--and since the other discussions were closed, here we are.

Good catch by you guys that, at least according to the katakana we have for the Sternritter, their names (personal and sur-) are pretty consistently divided by an interpunct /・/, which is conspicuously absent from the name given by Yamamoto to the Vandenreich leader, ユーハバッハ: if this was to be interpreted as "first name" + "surname", the interpunct should be there, so this leads me to believe that this katakana is prob. only for a single name, prob. his surname.

As with many of Kubo's names (particularly those of the Hollows and Arrancar), we'll likely have to wait for some official[ish] romanization, in a databook or like we got for Yukio, before we know for "sure" what the spelling is that he intended. But until then, some thoughts on, at least, a decent ad hoc or "place-holder" romanization:

A quick search of some of the katakana on the Japanese Wiki drew my eye to one result in particular: the phonetic rendering into katakana of a "Juchheim Co., Ltd.". This was, in kana, ユーハイム Yūhaimu. Now, this shows a kind of elision (of a putative form *Yū(h)hahaimu maybe) because of the following element -haimu (-heim), but I wonder if this could give us a template for at least an educated guess at what shape the head of the Vandenreich's name could take.

Operating on my reasoning above, I give, as my best if (until we're graced by Kubo) yet-unsubstantiated guess for the spelling of the name, as "Juchbach". As it turns out, Hatifnatten on the NARUTO forum already posited the same! The concept seems to be that Juch is pronounced, in German, something like [ju:x], or, in American Heritage Dictionary rendering, [yōōKH], with a long u sound. Thus, a long ū but only -ha instead of -hha is used in the katakana to = -ch. In the above-cited Juchheim example, this -ha- was absorbed by the following -ha- of -heim (-haimu); but remains when followed, as here, by the -ba- of -bach (-bahha).

It seems worth mentioning that, based on current evidence, that we can, at least, confirm that it ISN'T "Johann" or something, being as there's no n in sight in the katakana. Kubo can feel free to correct this later, à la the reprint correction to "Because you are a Shinigami and a Johann" XD; but until then, no n = no Johan(n).

In conclusion, in case all the text above was too eye-breaking (XD), my placeholder romanization of the name = *** "Juchbach" ***. Adam Restling (talk) 23:53, September 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Some good observations, but allow me to poke a hole in your theory.


 * First, you are completely right in that as of now, we have no reason to believe that what Yamamoto said were supposed to be 2 names. Whatever placeholder to use should logically be a single word.


 * However, there seems to be a misconception regarding how the German ch is written in kana. You seem to think it's always a hha, but that is not the case. The kana depend on both the letters preceeding and following the sound as well as their pronunciation in the original word.


 * Generally, a kana if the h-row is taken that corresponds to the vowel preceeding it. Whether or not the h is doubled is somewhat inconsistent (as most kana transcriptions of foreign words tend to be), but typically depends on the length of the preceeding sound (so while the ha in Bach becomes hha because it's a short a, this is not always the case).


 * Then there's another thing - if the ch is not the final sound of the word, but rather, if it's followed by another vowel, this takes precedence. For example, the word Baumkuchen is spelled バウムクーヘン (Baumukūhen) in kana. Note how the h-kana is not doubled because the preceeding u is elongated, and how he is used instead of hu (or rather, fu).


 * Now, the case of Juchheim. You are correct that the h-kana that would have been part of "Juch" was absorbed by the h-kana following it, the beginning of "-heim". Juch, by the way, is not an actual word, just a name. The thing is that unless you pronounce both parts of Juchheim very carefully, it will be slurred and sound something like Jucheim. Even in German, one h absorbs the other (though not in writing). And now, in Japanese, since both of them become one and the vowel following the sound takes precedence, it becomes a ha.


 * On the other hand, if you'd actually write the name Juch in kana, it would become ユーフ, so "yuuhu" or "yuufu". Now, in the case of our dear nameless Emperor, if we romanize him as Juchbach, then you can see that the h-sound is not followed by a vowel, so the kana would have to adhere to the vowel preceeding it, which is u. So unless the kana read "Juuhubahha", I would argue that Juchbach is not a proper romanization.


 * So, as for what I think is correct, I think "Juhabach", in one word, is our best bet. You could make a case for Juchabach, or Yūhabach if you want a weird Japanese/German mixture, but I'd say Juhabach is the most attractive option right now. Tipres (talk) 03:06, September 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Aah, the holes, they burn(?!) !! XD


 * Yeah, I know that German ch isn't always rendered by -hha; not just Juchheim as I cited is an example, but also the hi in Licht (Rihito) Regen and Vandenreich (-raihi), and the hyen in Quincyzeichen (-tsaihyen), although these last are, more properly, for the softer allophone /ç/ and not /x/ of ch. But you're right that the h- series kana chosen does seem to (almost?) always be influenced by the preceding vowel.


 * Based on that, I suppose that ***Juhabach*** (as you suggested) prob. is the most cogent (with our current evidence) ad hoc romanization. I sure hope Kubo or his chums come out with the official romanization somewhere soon--just as I've always wished that he'd/they'd just do that for all the non-native Japanese names/techniques to begin with! Adam Restling (talk) 02:05, September 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * His name could actually be more likely to be a Yiddish vocalisation of the Tetragrammaton 'Y.H.W.H.', the Hebrew absolute name of God as it may have been said in Germany 1000 years ago, than related to Bach or anything similar. More details here. Bluesun1 (talk) 05:16, September 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * We care little where the name comes from. Whether it is Yiddish or German is not important. What is important is what is the proper romanization of the name. Thats all we want.--

Powers/Abilities
Shouldn't we like add something about his powers considering he defeated Kenpachi? --BladeJules (talk) 13:06, August 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * No.--

Name/Appearence
Why the hell there is a line "His name is Juha Bach" on his appearence section? Coutinho305 (talk) 23:24, August 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Dude, calm down. Look at the page's history. User:Motoko Kusanagi randomly put it there. -- Qazqaz 555  01:41, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

It IS kind of stupid though. A random "His name is Juha Bach" at the end, and referring to him as the "leader" at the beginning. We know the name now. 01:55, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1. The part in the appearance section slipped in before the page was locked, an admin will undo it when they are on. 2. We are waiting on official confirmation from our translators before fully committing to the new name.--

Ability-Wise
This is more or less a repeat of the above, but considering my history with this site and their "Discussion Closed" sections, I'll just make it a separate section. Juha Bach has... revealed to have the strength or is using blut (there is more than enough information to make an educated statement that he is using blut), considering he blocked Zaraki's strike, something that in itself is noteworthy, and subsequently defeated him. Why is there no mention of this in his abilities? Even a single sentence for god's sake. I mean, it wasn't outright stated that As Nodt was using blut either, yet because it was revealed he had strong resistance to attacks, you guys put his ability down as blut. Why is this case different? I'll reiterate. He blocked Zaraki's, Captain Kenpachi Zaraki's, attack with one arm. And you guys don't think it's noteworthy? Really? --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 15:46, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nothing of the fight was seen. We have no idea what he is capable of nor will we make an "educated statement" as we have a Speculation policy. We can;t say anything about him defeating Kenpachi Zaraki as we don't know how he did it. Did he do it on strength alone? Did he use Quincy techniques? Did he have help from the blond guy? All of those would result in different things to write down and since we don't know, we won't say anything.--

So, we won't say anything period about him effortlessly lifting Kenpachi by the neck? Not even a casual mention about how he defeated kenpachi? We have him defeating Harribel off screen mentioned yet Kenpachi won't be mentioned? Wheres the logic in that? So because we don't see it therefore it didn't happen and nothing in this chapter happened at all? We aren't going to edit in taht kenpachi was defeated, because, "it was off screen"? How stupid is that--BladeJules (talk) 16:11, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * You are misconstruing my words. I said nothing would be added to his powers and abilities section. The plot section is entirely different and will be updated when an admin gets around to it.--

Stature
I think we should make an addition to address his large stature. In the image with him and Kenpachi, you can see that he's at least as tall, if not taller than, Kenpachi. Bach is a BIG dude. Bleachshinigami (talk) 14:52, August 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * Other then saying he is tall there is nothing that we can do about addressing his height.--

Issue with statement
I noticed that the last sentence reads "Declaring Soul Society on the brink of collapse, Kenpachi is saved from further punishment by the arrival of the captain-commander. To me, it reads as though Kenpachi is saying that Soul Society is on the brink of collapse as opposed to Bach.  I've read the chapter, but I think it might be confusing to readers who haven't.  Meta5 (talk) 03:51, September 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Changed.--

Ability details
Given these last few chapters, new things should be added to Bach's ability section. Give that he was able to block sword blows from both Kenpachi and Yamamoto with his bare arm, and not lose it in the process...he either has colossal durability or the Blut Vene (more likely the second, since this last-generation Quincy appear to have it)...the fact that he defeated Kenpachi alone with the greatest of ease, plus his statement that he does not appreciate intrusions in his battles (reffering to his subordinates as fools for it) implies he defeated Kenpachi alone, and thus should be stated in his spiritual power section, since it's the same situation as with him defeating Tier Hallibel (no shown fight, only a minor statement). And his Spirit Weapon was not added. Any opinions? Darksusanoo (talk) 18:50, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I agree. The manner in which resisted the Yamaji's Zanpakuto is similar to Äs Nödt's Blut. Also, He show a Quincy Cross like a Militar Medal. All that should be added to the article. Yamasaurio (talk) 19:24, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Any more opinions, given what was shown? Darksusanoo (talk) 00:15, September 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * This was handled as usual in time.--

Name - again
The user Bluesun1 said this two weeks ago: "His name could actually be more likely to be a Yiddish vocalisation of the Tetragrammaton 'Y.H.W.H.', ". Well, it seems like he was incredibly accurate with this! VIZ released their version of the name and it is Yhwach: http://shonenjump.viz.com/node/1095 VIZ apparently is getting the names directly from Japan now, so we are not having issues like Tesla/Tesra again. They were right with Quilge Opie in the last chapter, so it's very likely they are right with Yhwach (and even if they aren't, this is still the only official romanization so far). - Gorenja (talk) 05:09, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Until it comes from Kubo himself, Juhabach is staying.--

Honestly 'isme I'm baffled by your stubborness on this point, as this is not the first time this kind of discussion arises. Every time this sort of discussion comes up, you seem to favor whatever fan translation popped up first rather than the closest-to-official version available. Kubo is not going to send you an official document in which he lists every romanized name in the way he imagined it, with his own signature right next to it, swearing to the Constitution that he'll never change said romanization ever again. I know I have no say in what you people do around here anymore, but the administration in this wiki is becoming more and more rigid and narrow-minded by the day, no offense intended. -- Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  05:36, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * You seem to forget that databooks and volumes exist. These are official publications with romanized names. Juhabach was provided to us by Adam, our own translator who has translated pretty much every term on this site. If you don't trust him, whatever, but I don't particularly care for Viz translations when they are notorious for being wrong and not using official names, such as their continued use of incorrect Arrancar names well after databooks, volumes and chapter covers have confirmed these names. If an official source comes out with a translation different than our own, we will move it, but there is no sense in moving the page once again to another non official name. You like your fan translations, Ill like mine.--

Sure, make me the bad guy saying I don't trust Adam, whatever. I'm no fan of Viz translations any more than you are, but if the evidence tells -as it seems to do- that they have had the recent name romanization correct (with the Ebern and Quilge cases, which every other translator had wrong) I would consider it enough to mark a tendency and think that maybe they ARE getting their names straight from Japan for once. Remember SJA is tightly linked to the Japanese branch -heck, Sasaki-san who is deputy director of the Shonen Manga Group, is always tweeting about how he is in constant meetings and videoconferences with the SJA staff. These people are in touch with the Japanese publishers and mangaka. Whatever they publish should, in theory, be more accurate in terms of an official-information-based wiki than what any translator -as good as Adam may be- could provide. But heck, it's your wiki, and I'm not going to be defending Viz -which everyone knows I dislike with a passion- for the sake of this wiki's accuracy.-- Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  05:57, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Until it's official then it is still just a fan translation. If SJA comes out and states that they are indeed receiving official translations from Kubo, then we will start trusting them, but until that time they are just another fan translation and we need to wait for official sources before making changes.--

Sure, a fan translation that nailed two names that went in the most unexpected ways, by a purely coincidential incident. Fine, do as you please. Just saying that changing the few Juhabach articles now will be much easier than it will be in 2-4 months, when the volume with that romanization is released, and by the time, users will already be used to whatever is wrong. I'll just bring up the Schiffer/Cifer edit war for your happy memory and be gone. Have fun. -- Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  06:12, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Says the girl who still uses Schiffer. Even if we had a billion pages all linking to Juhabach, my bot can take care of all of that in minutes. Its not really much of a problem. This site runs on official names. What fans think is irrelevant. Perhaps if you actually contributed to this site, I would be more inclined to listen to what you have to say but all you do is show up here to complain when we have a name wrong. I am less inclined to take the word of users who do not actively work on articles and do not know how this site is run than users who do. In short. We go by official names. Our translators have translated the name as such and that is what we will stick with until an official translation comes out.--

not the real juhabach
in his last words he apology to juhabach sama so it is possible he isn't the real juhabach?? --Nitram86 (talk) 11:24, September 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * It is simply too early to know what to make of this since it was the final panel of the chapter. We have to wait and see before making such conclusions. 11:28, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Now that we know that the Juhabach we have seen was an impostor, we need to do something about this article. Everything that occurred in Soul Society need to be moved to a new article about the Sternritter who was posing as him. Though it seems the powers and abilities were Royd's own so those can stay. Opinions on how to go about this?--

this is my idea royd and loyd can copy other person before know they are quincy but they can't copy the apparence then when they become quincy they use the reishi to simulate the apparence of a other person (using they ability to copy the mind to become an perfect copy of the original even in the way of thinking and talking) more or less like Quilge Opie can use the reishi that made other people on himself to fusion with someone else --Nitram86 (talk) 14:58, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think the plot part should be moved to Royd's article, and the abilities should be not moved, but just copied as Yamamoto recognized that techniques as Juhabach's techniques. It should be mentioned that Royd's sword is just a replica and I am not sure wether or not that "Church Hymn" spell should be kept on Juhabach's page, as we don't know if the real Juha can use it. Coutinho305 (talk) 15:05, October 2, 2012 (UTC)

Who clashed with Zaraki first?
A little inconsistency with this page is that in the Blood War arc section, it states that it was Bach who first clashed and blocked Kenpachi's sword swing with his bare arm, yet in the abilities section this was atributed to Royd. So my question is...to who this little feat belongs to actually? Darksusanoo (talk) 00:40, October 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * It should be Royd, since he was impersonating Bach for almost the entire battle until the real Bach showed up, to my knowledge. Xilinoc (talk) 00:53, November 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I fixed this a while ago.--

Kaiser instead of Emperor?
Regarding his status as leader of the vandenreich, I'd like to know whether the title of emperor is canon or if it is just a way of accommodating the fact that Vandenreich literally means "Invisible Empire". If this is the case, then I suggest that his occupation be read as Kaiser since it is the closest German word (that probably exists) to Emperor.

Now before you start telling me, "no we can't do that because Tite Kubo hasn't said so" or something to that effect, let me say that I am aware and only wish to have this questioned answered: would it be ok to use Kaiser instead of Emperor? Sapphirewhirlwind (talk) 17:29, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Emperor was what was said in the series. It is the canon term--


 * Kaiser is Emperor in German but that's used in a German society!! While yes, a lot of Quincy terms are derived from Kubo's own translations of German, he usually has themes rather than people who are actually German!! The term Emporer was used here, usually if he uses another language it will be explicitly stated as such, like Espada etc so in this event the correct term is Emperor!! Hope that helps!!

His name is Ywhach, confirmed in volume 58 scans.
http://i.imgur.com/5TTQqML.png His name is Ywhach, as seen in scans for this volume. You guys should start using Viz's translations seeing as since simultaneous release with Japan they seem to have been pretty accurate. --Chiligrinder (talk) 19:17, March 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * Apparently reading the above conversations just totally escaped you seeing as old news seems to be the running point here. Scanalations let alone viz scans are ambiguous at best if not overly americanized. This issue was already handled and if you actually looking on the page Ywhach is aleady on there in the first line.--

One of Yhwach's quotes needs to be moved to Royd's page
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the quote "Pitiful fools. You should have known better than to intrude on my battle." was said during the time Royd was impersonating him, so I think it should be moved to Royd's page instead, considering it wasn't the real Yhwach who said it. DarkErigor (talk) 23:06, March 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I've removed the quote. However it wouldn't fit on Royd's page as it was Royd impersonating Yhwach and not his own personality. Thanks for bringing this up.--

Also I think the quote "Conflict is always such a bitter affair." might be said by Royd too, but I'm not sure on that one. Just trying to place it safe. And you are very welcome, its what we do here, after all! DarkErigor (talk) 23:15, March 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * That one is a little trickier. We don't know the point at which Yhwach was replaced by Royd. That occurred right as the Vandenreich entered Soul Society so we don't know if it was Royd or if it was Yhwach. I'll leave it for now in case we ever get clear confirmation when the switch happened.--

Got it, thanks for your time! XD DarkErigor (talk) 23:39, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Ywhach's power
The feat of him defeating Harribel is isn't that impressive, really I'd say the fact he killed Yamamoto and defeated Kenpachi to be way more of a testament to his strength. Anyone against the idea of replacing "defeating Harribel" with the other two?RexGodwin (talk) 22:05, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Tier Harribel has a very high level of spiritual power, on par with at least Hitsugaya, and fought a captain and 2 former lieutenants on at least even ground. Defeating her almost effortlessly is a considerable feat. As for Yamamoto and Kenpachi, we already noted how he said he's the only one who could wield Yamamoto's Bankai, and Royd Lloyd is the one who defeated Kenpachi, not Yhwach.--Xilinoc (talk) 22:15, April 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * In any case, Yamamoto was unable to use his full power, so we don't have an exact comparison on that.

Quincy Arrows and Reishi Blasts
Here's the thing...when Yhwach kills Yamamoto, he fires a series of DBZ-style energy shots, that reduce him to...pretty much dust. Now the thing is...unlike the Quincy Arrows (can't write their real name for the life of me), these weren't fired, or produced at all from Yhwach's Spirit Weapon, so i don't believe these should be clumped up those, as: they neither appear as arrows at all, nor are they produced from the man's Spirit Weapon at all. Instead i propose that it be marked as a new skill, him having the ability to fire reishi blasts. Any opinions? Darksusanoo (talk) 05:06, May 7, 2013 (UTC)

I must disagree. This isn't the only case where a Quincy's Heilig Pfeil aren't formed directly from their Spirit Weapon. Remember Royd's arrows? ;) And they, nor Äs' arrows/thorns look like traditional arrows.--Yomiko-chan (talk) 06:07, May 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * Except Royd arrows did came from the medallion/cruxifix that all Quincy share and from where Spirit Weapons are manifested. Plus A's thorns look more like his Spirit weapon than anything else. Point is: while the Spirit Weapons may vary immensely, all Heilig Pfeil are genereated from said Spirit Weapons, which wasn't the case when Yamamoto gets desintegrated by Yhwach (BTW the translation for the name screws my head up six ways from sunday) Darksusanoo (talk) 09:04, May 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * The content of all quincy abilities are related to reishi manipulation and have already been determined to be innately the same power in different spirit weapon forms and all varyingly use Heilig Pfeil. It has been determined there is no difference in this case but the size of spirit weapon or at the very least a variation on how the most powerful quincy uses his spirit weapon or forms his Heilig Pfeil. In any case there is not enough information on the ability besides whats presented in that singular instance to go beyond what already exists on the page, anything else would be a over exaggeration of an ability that cant be further identified.--

Relations
Since, according to Isshin, "Juhabach was the predecessor of all Quinicies. The Quincy started with him. And, his blood flows within all Quincies.", shouldn't Yhwach be added to the pages of anyone with Quincy blood in their family section of the infobox as a distant relative?--The Eleventh Doctor (Trust me. I'm the Doctor.) 20:26, May 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yea I dont think thats a viable thing to do, if he had a more direct lineage yes but the concept could be that he is the means by which the various quincy families had gotten their abilities and not necessary a genetic blood relation. Blood can be used for things outside of the family concept.--

Merge with Zangetsu (spirit)?
In the most recent chapter, we are told the person we thought was Zangetsu is not, (it is heavily implied that Hollow Ichigo is Zangetsu) and the Old man is Yhwach from 1000 years ago. Could we at least mention this in History of Yhwach?--Chiligrinder (talk) 09:51, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

While Zangetsu is said to be how Yhwach appeared 1,000 years ago, he is still a separate entity and as such Yhwach's true past self hasn't appeared yet. So, no.  09:55, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

Where does it say that? It says "that man is Yhwach from 1000 years ago". It does not speak of appearance, it just says "is". Also Mera tells Ichigo that he is NOT Zangetsu nor is he is Zanpakuto. To still call him Zangetsu is speculation when we have been told he is categorically not. --Chiligrinder (talk) 09:57, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

I'm calling him Zangetsu simply because we have no other name to offer him. And unless you're planning on arguing as to how they are the same entity (as in, Yhwach existing within Ichigo's soul at the same time as having an older physical form in reality), think before you make that argument. Right now all we have is the material from a speed-group who are not always reliable in their translations. Wait for our own translators to give an accurate English script before adding information as important as this. 10:02, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I agree, although, we have other articles with unnamed people. It is impossible to know what Kubo may pull, so I am speculating nothing, I am just stating the fact that Mangapanda's translation alludes that the man we used to know as Zangetsu is in fact Yhwach. It is not our place to suggest whether Yhwach has a dual existance or whether it is a manifestation. --Chiligrinder (talk) 10:05, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly, so stop suggesting it. Intentional or by mistake. We here at Bleach Wiki act only on concrete evidence, especially for a major change like this, so things that are only alluded to shouldn't require so many talk page entries. 10:13, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was answered in the latest chapter was it not? The "Zangetsu/Ywach" we see is Ichigo's Quincy Powers. Just as we believed that Zangetsu was Ichigo's Shinigami powers, that manifestation does not actually exist. They stated that Ywach's blood was in all Quincy, thus Ywach appearing a thousand years younger isn't a dual existence, but a representation of Ichigo's Quincy blood/power. The Quincy blood/power is from Ywach, thus that is why he is seen as such in Ichigo's inner world. In otherwords, the Zangetsu we know (and used to love) is really the form of Ichigo's Quincy powers manifested to produce a Zanpakto like-blade, while the Hollow Ichigo is, again, the form of Ichigo's Shinigami powers, and technically Zangetsu, since if Zangetsu didn't exist, they would not have denied that Ywach wasn't really him. I guess I agree with KuroAshi98 in that we shouldn't merge Yhwach with Zangetsu as the two aren't the same. However, I would also like to point out that the entire concept is flawed unless Quincy powers manifest themselves just as a Shinigami's powers do since Yhwach/Zangetsu followed every rule of being a Shinigami's Zanpakto (Ichigo's inability to hear his name, initially, the red soul ribbon, a shikai/bankai, etc...) I hope Kubo has a great way to fill this plot hole because as it stands, Logic fails. Savalric (talk) 02:04, June 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank You for reading and comprehending the story Savalric its hard to come by. Yea this conversation is basically at an end.