Forum:Official Muramasa Discussions

Here you can discuss anything about Muramasa, the main bad guy from the current Zanpakuto Unknown Tales filler arc. Existing topics are listed below, but feel free to add new ones if what you want to discuss is not covered here already. Do not add create new forums about Muramasa, as they will be deleted and their content moved to here. --Yyp 15:13, November 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * You can discus the Zanpakuto Filler arc's story here.
 * You can discuss the Zanpakuto Filler arc in general here.

Muramasa & Code Geass
Is it possible that Muramasa's design was influenced by Code Geass? The guard has the symbol used in Code Geass, not to mention that Muramasa is able to control other Zanpakuto. --LOL.its.Neotails 21:14, December 23, 2009 (UTC)

I think it's possible sure, but I also think that it's a common symbol and may have another meaning in Japanese/Asian culture. --Ihaveaname 16:36, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Muramasa's control over Zanpakuto
Ok, when Muramasa seperates a shinigamis zanpakutou, why does it suddenly attack its owner? is Muramasa using some kind of Mind control on them? I mean, if the zanpakuto spirt of someone who is capable of bankai, therefore has the highest level relationship with their spirit, is separated from them then it should be helping them, right? What the hell is this? Just makes no sense to me. If i dont know something, tell me. I havent seen the recent anime on this subject. Or are their spirits all just pissed off about something? --Ulquiorra Wannabe128 12:34, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately Uli, we know as much as you do. No-one's gone into the specifics, so stay tuned...TomServo101 13:40, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

It looks like Muramasa removes a Zanpakuto's self-restraint (ie "Follow their instincts"). They are weapons of war with no strong hand to guide them so they lash out at everything and anything. Though Muramasa seems able to rein them in a bit.

Otherwise this arc can kick it in the butt a little. They are starting to drag. Great Cthulhu 02:38, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

His control seems to hinge on something that the spirit dislikes about its master and going from there. Some kind of mind control works well there, but it looks like they can break out and need to be reminded physically. I want to say it's like taking something they dislike on their owner and amplifying it, or amplifying a fault or desire of the spirit itself. Probably why Ryūjin Jakka wouldn't rebel, Yamamoto is very old and has been fighting for a long time, any difference between him and his zanpakuto is either resolved or Ryūjin Jakka is loyal beyond all doubts.

Well either way as of ep234 his power to make zanpukto turn on their owner does not extend to hollows as it didn't work on Hollow Ichigo from the looks of it.Saimaroimaru 08:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Or say, Muramasa pointed the fact that he called the Zampakuto's instinct, then his power could be to amplify the doubts of the Zampakutos who feel that their wielders don't deserve their powers. A sort of Try to be in harmony with your instincts or they can kill you...Baronofash 03:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the reason it didn't have any effect on hollow ichigo is that he is pure instinct, there is no other inner instinct to listen to or to draw out.

While Muramasa has suggested (I believe) that he has some control over them, I think he's right to an extent; the shinigami often don't respect their weapons. I'm betting that rumor that Tosen isn't using his original zanpakuto is true, and that his original was Muramasa. (Would be funny if it were true, but probably not likely.) PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) 00:49, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

As I remember (correct my if I'm wrong) it was meantioned that Tosen take his zanpakuto form grave of his friend. And like zaraki is example to don't know name of his sword Tousen is example that it's possibly to wield not you zanpakuto but it wasn't never mentioned what side-effect it causing to him (if it have any but using sword that wasn't create from your soul should have some drawnbacks).--Kazuki Senzo Miyakami 17:58, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

Well it appears the Muramasa does use some form of mind control on the zanpakuto, freeing them of their restraint by getting to their instincts and warping them, but he has not actually taken them from the shinigami as has been shown they are only denying their shinigami the use of their power and when defeated the mind control is broken and they return back to normal. Also it is never stated that Tosen's zanpakuto ever belonged to anyone but himself, and the idea that it belonged to the woman before can't be proven, she is never even seen with it so its more of an assumption. If we have been watching the arc it states that a zanpakuto is born with its shinigami and dies with its shinigami.Salubri 17:22, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Well, we now have an official explanation of how he controls the Zanpakutō spirits. Muramasa is a Zanpakutō with tapeworm-like abilities who enters his enemies Zanpakuō and controls it as necessary. Decent explanation for his powers. --Yyp 14:05, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Muramasa's appearance
He's like a mixed Ulquiorra, Kusaka from DDR and Aizen (he resembles him in the way he treats his subordinates - he seems friendly to them). Tmasterson 12:49, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Kinda interesting idea... What if he`s a Resurrección Spirit? He kinda looks that way...--Sleuch Mizzur 12:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
 * A lot of people are suggesting he may be Kenpachi's zanpakuto spirit. Evilgidgit 22:06, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * He does remind me of Ulquiorra. Muramasa's appearance also reminds me of Lelouch from Code Geass. Somehow I doubt Muramasa will be Kenpachi's Zanpakuto, considering he's a filler character, but Tite Kubo is overseeing this arc, so who knows? LapisScarab 06:09, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It seems extremely unlikely if not impossible that he is kenpachi's zanpakuto spirit seeing as he claimed that he killed his former master with his own hands bfeldz1023 00:44, 30 august 2009 (EST)

Theory behind Muramasa
Muramasa is a Rogue Zanpakuto, like he states but he doesn't really have the ability to set free the other Zanpakuto. Instead, he seals the Zanpakuto inside their Shinigami and masks them using his detaining power (as demonstrated when fighting Hichigo.) After that, he creates an avatar (clone) of that Zanpakuto to use against the Shinigami. When he attacks the Shinigami with their Humanoid Zanpakuto's, the Shinigami are weakened because their Zanpakuto's are sealed within them, unable to help and because they are scared of destroying their Zanpakuto when they kill their humanoid form.

Why?


 * In the first episode of the Filler Arc, the Zanpakuto Souls have been gathered by Muramasa in a cave, which cannot be done since Zanpakutos remain in their Shinigami Spirit Realm.
 * Renji could call upon Zabimaru, eventhough the Spirit of his Zanpakuto was right in front of him. This would be impossible because Zabimaru wasn't in Renji's soul at the time. This can be explained with the detaining ability of Masamune, which might have been broken because of Renji's desire to defeat Byakuya.

But, this is only a theory and will be confirmed or broken down as the Arc continues.

Kai Hirogame 14:46, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Tosen's wielding of a different zanpakuto is odd, yes. I think it's for one of two reasons: 1. the spirit died with its owner and when Tosen became a shinigami, his zanpakuto spirit opted to inhabit that form (This holds less water given the nature of its bankai execution, which involves the ring on the hilt). 2. He truly stands for what his friend stood for and is able to use it as a result, this shows his beliefs in a different light, and challenges his hypocrisy about his path of least bloodshed. Either way, I doubt Tosen was associated with Muramasa, who bears the symbol of the kido corps on him and his sword; while Tosen is skilled in kido, he was never in the corps.

Well the latest episode has confirmed that Muramasa is using mind control and theres something strange about him, his body was fading before he retreated then he said Ichigo might be the one and plus he seems to be interested in the bond between a soul reaper and a zanpukto spirit so this is what I think. Muramasa is endanger of fading away since his shinigami owner is dead so his source of existence is gone. I think he planed to either eventually absorb the zanpukto spirits to prolong his existence or pit them against their owners and see which shinigami have the strongest bond with their zanpukto.I think thats how he survived this long by absorbing other spirits but he now wants to find a permanent spirit to absorb as he probably tired of the need to keep feeding on other spirits. I think he identified that person as Ichigo. So I think he plans on absorbing Ichigo or Ichigo's power into himself to keep himself alive or maybe merge himself with Zangetsu.Saimaroimaru 06:21, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone think that Muramasa imprisons and enslaves the zanpakuto within his own body? In the first episode of the new arc, whenever he 'crys' out blood onto his nails, he flicks it and the zanpakuto spirits appears within the city. He does this again for all the zanpakuto to appear in front of the shinigami. Also in the latest episode when Zabimaru and Zangetsu were defeated, he was in great pain and clutched himself as if something disappeared within him (judging from his transparent appearance). --JezzaRules2 01:18, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

That's an interesting theory. It seems like the zanpakutou's loyalties are directly connected to him in a way that it would hurt him. But him being hurt could have been a coincidence. Maybe it takes a lot of energy for him to keep the spirits imprisoned like he does, and that's why he was fading. I don't know, but I'm really considering your theory. KnowledgeandImagination 01:48, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Muramasa's Sword
if he is a zampakuto, and they all seem to be able to summon their sword form. does anyone recognise the gaurd on the sword? this could tell us who it is Fawcettp 05:59, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Nice catch that is actually worth noting, but I just took a look at that and it was only shown on one side so it's the same thing everyone else saw, Katana or wakizashi, violet hilt and regular cross guard so it's not Kenpachi's he's either the zanpakuto of someone we've never heard of or most likely someone we do know but haven't heard of in a long time. (PS. Even though this discussion belongs on a forum, so should one of us continue it we'll move it ourselves.)--SalmanH 06:16, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

From the picture on the page and the most recent episode the design seems to have changed, the guard now looks like the Kidō Corps emblem. Ancient Chaos 02:59, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd say the guard looks like the symbol seen when he summoned it; a circle with a V covering one quarter. Maggosh 03:31, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The hand-guard is the same in both 230 & this episode. The symbol that appears when he summons it is the exact same as the tsuba's design. I took a screen-cap of the design from 230, which shows it best. It is clearly different to the Kidou emblem (though there is a similarity) --Yyp 14:13, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok - after watching the episode again, it is the same symbol seen when he summons it (which, without the circle is the same symbol on his legs.) Though, with it being solid, it appears more like the kidō corps symbol than the summoning one (at a glance at least). I still think it looks like a geass symbol to...(which ironically does somewhat relate to his powers) but that's better left to the forums...actually this whole conversation is...Ancient Chaos 17:09, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that, that possibility can be added in the Trivia. Just because he shows disliking to the Shinigamis, and Kenpachi hates his Zampakutoh. Then, when Kenpachi fought against Ichigo, there was shown two "spirits", and the Muramasa's reiatsu shows to be really high. Rambard 00:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The idea that Muramasa is Kenpachi's Zanpakuto spirit is speculation and sould not be placed in the article unless there is concrete evidence. LapisScarab 06:09, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Take a look at the forums.--SalmanH 06:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I know that, that's a speculation, that's why I say to put it in the TRIVIA n.n. Rambard 21:10, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

we can savely say that all is speculation since no one knows who muramasa belongs to and since he killed his former shinigami we might never know if you look at the legend of muramasa wich was a sword smith and compare it with the characters from bleach well see for yourself and write down your ideas then. Muramasa Sengo (千子 村正 Sengo Muramasa) was a famous swordsmith who founded the Muramasa school and lived during the Muromachi period (16th century) in Japan. Oscar Ratti and Adele Westbrook said that Muramasa "was a most skillful smith but a violent and ill-balanced mind verging on madness, that was supposed to have passed into his blades....They were popularly believed to hunger for blood and to impel their warrior to commit murder or suicide."[1]

Speculation is not allowed even in trivia - speculation belongs solely in the forums. Ancient Chaos 21:12, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I see, sorry for the bothering ^-^. Rambard 21:20, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Kenpachi Zaraki (更木 剣八, Zaraki Kenpachi) is the Captain of the 11th Division in the Gotei 13. Among the current captains in the Gotei 13, he's the only Captain to have obtained his position by defeating and killing the previous Captain of the division. He's also the only Captain who doesn't know the name of his Zanpakutō and can't perform its Bankai. He is well-known for his blood-lust and fanatical love for fighting.

Kenpachi wishes to learn more about his Zanpakutō because he wants to become stronger. He can also identify with the pain of not having a name to be called by, Zangetsu notes that Kenpachi's disharmony with his sword causes the two to damage each other's powers and that he cannot hear the cry of his sword because of that.

Not relavant as Muramasa has already explained that he killed his wielder and not to mention him and kenpachi have nothing in common personality or attitude wise. Nor does his powers fit with something that would sit well with zaraki.Salubri 02:32, September 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * ...kenpachi have nothing in common personality or attitude wise. Nor does his powers fit with something that would sit well with zaraki. Sounds like Hisagi Shuhei and Kazeshini, doesn't it?Baronofash 06:09, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Muramasa's age
My speculation: As Muramasa knows almost all and what's related to the zampakuto spirits how old could he/it be? If I reference to the Japanese concept of Sempai (senior)and Kohai (junior) then
 * As Muramasa has been able to talk par to par with Katenkyokotsu or Minazuki that might define him as old as them, but older than Senbonzakura because the latter protected him from Ikkaku, not because he sees him like a master but rather like an elder.
 * But he might be younger than Ryujin Jakka, because Ryujin didn't care about Muramasa's call.Baronofash 04:48, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

As these spirits are supposed to be part of their respective Shinigami's souls, it seems to me that he'd be as old as whatever Shinigami he belongs to. But, as we've seen with the others, the way he looks isn't necessarily indicative of how old his Shinigami is, or even the gender of his Shinigami.

And a point of correction - Hyōrinmaru defends Muramasa from Ikkaku, not Senbonzakura. Twocents 04:59, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * My beg on this one, that was of course Hyorinmaru.
 * For the other question, maybe the aspect of the spirit may not show their age but rather their maturity or, in the other way, in which manner the shinigami feels his Zampakuto. To understand these kind of relationships, you need to see them from a Japanese view, not from a western view. The concept of seniority (Sempai and Kohai) is very important and used in Japan, especially in entreprise.Baronofash 05:58, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't it "Senpai"? - WhiteArmor - (Talk) - 20:01, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Muramasa's Previous Master
This is a continuation of an earlier theard that has now been closed. Feel free to add to the debate here, or review the old thread. Do not post in the old thread. --Yyp 11:07, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Since Muramasa is a Zanpakuto, is just from a filler arc (meaning he's from the anime only), and can use Garganta and travel to the Forest Of Menos, I've been thinking about this. Can HE actually be Ashido's Zanpakuto? You know, that Shinigami who saved Rukia from the Menos? The one who's stuck there? Well, although Ashido was just introduced through the anime series only, it can be a possibility, don't you think? :) --soulslayer1992

There's a really simple rule in a filler arc.The changes made in it have to be removed, because, if they don't remove the changes, it can create big changes in the Anime/Manga. Muramasa CAN'T be the Kenpachi's zampakutoh, just because it implies that Kenpachi is dead, and it's just impossible. So, please, stop saying that Muramasa is the Kenpachi's zampakutoh, because it is just impossible.

Does anyone else think Muramasa might be Ashido's zanpaktou, because 1. He never released and 2. He was in the forest of menos, the last known location of Ashido.

i think its him to but we just have to wait and see.-User:Bleach boy

Finally this is settled. The wild theories can end, and new ones pop up. --Yyp 17:09, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Muramasa & Baishin
Muramasa by saying that he killed his wielder, reminds me of Baishin (Sword of Frenzy) who merged with his zampakuto. Is there any possibilities that Muramasa was Baishin's zampakuto?Baronofash 12:45, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

i thought Ichigo killed BaishinStark Toshiro 00:10, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

Baishin was not killed by Ichigo but freed by Ichigo. Baishin was already dead but his soul was swallowed and imbricated with his zanpakuto's spirit. But maybe (or surely) there is no connection at all.Baronofash 00:16, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

ok but i really doubt he is maramasa's shinigami just does not seem to fitStark Toshiro 19:56, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

Muramasa & Kuchiki Household
Considering the recent developments in the filler arc, one possible theory as to the identity of Muramasa's former master is that he belonged to a member of the Kuchiki house.

This would explain why Byakuya is so determined to protect him (if he has no ulterior motive, which is also possible). It's unlikely that it belonged to his father, or his grandfather (former captain Ginrei Kuchiki) since the other captains would remember the name. Since the Kuchiki house are supposedly the historians of Soul Society, it's likely that Byakuya is familiar with the ancient history of his house.

The last time Byakuya said he was "protecting his pride" was when he stopped Zommari Leroux from killing Rukia. It could be surmised that his family is the symbol of his pride, and by that reasoning, he could view Muramasa as a family member if he indeed belonged to an ancestor.

Of course, Byakuya could be playing an angle (although an obscure one) and has no idea who Muramasa is. I just thought the theory warrants some consideration. -- Ginookami

I was looking at the episode, and there was a sillhouette of Kouga wearing what appeared to be the Kuchiki family's scarf. I wonder if that's coincindence; otherwise, that might explain the future episode title "That Man, for the sake of the Kuchiki", and also be the reason why Byakuya joined Muramasa. --Seireitou-shishō (瀞霊冬川平) 22:50, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

This is my first time writting so don't get mad if i make something wrong, so my theory is the relationship between muramasa and Byakuya, i believe that Muramasa probbaly killed a member of the Kuchiki house, and Byakuya wants to take revenge, but he is waiting for Muramasa to get to his master in order to truly get revenge and protect his pride, thats what im thinking off right now Xombiewar

Has anyone else noticed that the silhouette of Kouga has on the same scarf that is common in Kuchiki Clan?? That may explain why Byakuya has joined Muramasa.. His pride is probably "telling" him to battle Kouga to restore honor to the Kuchiki Clan... Something along those lines, I'm sure. Any other thoughts??

Yeah, I noticed the scarf too. Plus, is that the remains of a captain's robe he's wearing? TomServo101 15:02, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

i can't exactly tell if it was a captain's robe Kouga is wearing, but in the sneak peak of the next episode, Byakuya's granpa (was his name Ginrei?) was shown. So I believe Kouga has deep connections with the Kuchiki clan. --WinterFox 02:47, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

he has the same hair peices as byakuya i think kouga is a KuchikiKensei24 23:44, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Ep is out, though unsubbed (I've got the beginning of the article written, so don't fret over it anyone). It clears up this question pretty conclusively. TomServo101 00:07, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Kenpachi being the Master of Muramasa
Im not too sure on it but i am just digging into me brain to think of why a random zanpakuto would cause all of this. The reasons i can think of are two things: 1. Captain Yamamoto could actually be testing the entire shinigami corps and seeing if they are truely capable of defeating their own powers. Hince why Yamamoto mysteriously disappeared in the beginning. 2. Muramasa is pissed that he is being ignored by his real owner Kenpachi and he is really trying to crush the Sereti because he wants to kill Kenpachi and show Kenpachi that the Swords are stronger and their power is too great to overcome. Even the power Muramasa has fits Kenpachi and that is bringing the instincts out of others. He doesnt control the other zanpakuto please everyone understand this. His power only appeals to a Zanpakuto's own instincts and that is what i think makes it fit Kenpachi because Ken is all about using his instincts. This could very well be a story about a child trying to get attention from his father but i figure most of you will think i am crazy

I'm new here. I have a theory... I do think it's possible muramasa is zaraki's zanpakuto, though i have another speculation. let me explain... maybe TK will introduce zaraki's zanpakuto in the manga to kill Yammy (the manga chapter will end with Zaraki saying the release word for his zanpakuto)... and this event in the manga will coincide with an episode in the anime where zaraki uses his zanpakuto to fight muramasa... i would like his zanpakuto's name to be musamune. i've read somewhere that musamune and muramasa are great blacksmith with contradicting traits/personality. i thought this would be cool but then again i maybe thinking too much. just have a question though, do the anime writers have consent from TK when they do the fillers? if yes maybe what i think is possible to happen...just my opinion.--WinterFox 02:53, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

I'm kinda sick of saying this so I apologise if I'm a bit short, but it is impossible. Muramasa stated that he killed his previous master and Kenpachi is as alive as you can get. Secondly it's a filler arc, an anime filler arc. They are not going to reveal anything that has not been revealed in the manga by Kubo. It is just not possible so please would people stop bringing it up, it is the seventy fifth billionth time I've heard it proposed. BollyW 08:13, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

While they were showing the previews for the next episode during episode 244, Ichigo actually ask why haven't they seen Kenpachi's zanpakuto spirit yet. To which Renji replies that if Kenpachi's zanpakuto sprite manifests itself then Soul Society would be destroyed the show would be over. At which point Ichigo asks if the studio execs stepped in. Abarai acknowledges that they have. It might be a joke but given this is a filler episode and thus something totally under the studios control, I think we can accept it for what it is. Tell fans to stop speculating about whether Muramasa is Kenpachi's zanpakuto or whether Kenpachi's zanpakuto is going to turn-up. No it is not. Tinni 08:38, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

to BollyW and Tinni, i'm sorry for getting into your nerves... this is the first time i posted and i have these wild ideas in my mind so please don't get upset .. anyway, i think both of you are right, TK has nothing to do with the anime fillers so I guess zaraki's zanpakuto will not be spoiled out in the anime. i just wished the writers would consult TK in doing fillers so as not to defy or be confused with anything already established in the manga.--WinterFox 09:07, November 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * It is not that you got on my nerve and you are certainly not the only one to think Muramasa might be Kenpachi's zanpakuto. It is, however, getting kind of old. Especially since there is no basis for it and even the anime studio writers are making it very clear that they are not touching Kenpachi's zanpakuto. Tinni 09:28, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Nah it's cool, ignore me right now, I'm in exam mode and shouldn't even be on the internet. I'm sure you appreciate though how frustrating it is making the same point ten or so times. Don't worry about it, and if you have anymore crazy speculations feel free to post 'em, just make sure you check that they're sound first :) BollyW 10:35, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Oh dear
Eh... Muramasa got stabbed by a broken sword, and by his own master to boot. Anyone care to speculate why this is happening? I personally believe that Koga dislikes his Zanpakuto in some way, probably because Muramasa is a bad boy! Nat12345919 03:03, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

The above was moved from Muramasa's talk page. Once again, talk pages are not for discussion of speculation. Back to the speculation, it would appear to me that Koga might well blame Muramasa for leading him astray. Muramasa does seem to have been the one to fill his head with the thoughts that caused him to rebel. Also, I don't know if it is just me but it does seem to be implied that Muramasa was in love with Koga. I mean serious, "Your beautiful"? I can't imagine any other zanpakuto saying that to their master... well Ruri'iro Kujaku said it to Yumichika but that's keeping with the character of Ruri'iro Kujaku, who likes beautiful things. Tinni 03:14, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Tinni. Maybe Muramasa is obsessed with Kouga. I think that maybe, Kouga had himself sealed away after realizing what he have done. If not, I cannot think of other things (aside from Tinni's speculation) to why he would stab Muramasa. --WinterFox 02:17, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Muramasa and Kouga
i just read Kouga's article here in bleach wiki. do you think Yūkōjōchū Muramasa is a Bankai or just a shikai ability? well, i think it's bankai. first is the name, it sounds like a bankai's name. second, is the ability itself. usually, bankai is an upgrade of the shikai. if in shikai, muramasa can control an enemies zanpakuto, it would make logical sense that his bankai can materialize the zanpakuto's spirit aside from "controlling" it. lastly, according to Bleach wiki, a shinigami usually says the word 'bankai' to activate bankai -- meaning you can still release bankai without saying anything (just like when byakuya released bankai during the fight with yammy and/or kenpachi). i maybe wrong with my statements, so if anyone can give a good answer, i won't argue. :) --WinterFox 06:16, December 17, 2009 (UTC)