Forum:"Path of least bloodshed"

I think that I've known this for a while but it's only recently that I read the Do U Think Gin Could Turn On Aizen that I decided to put this down, Tosen meant every word of Justice and path of least bloodshed, has anyone asked themselves what would happen if Aizen won.... The guy is a megalomaniac he loves power and control therefore anyone his control would be forced to bend to his will since he has the power to do so swiftly and decisively, he won't beat around the bush and Tosen knows this all too well, (his main drive was the death of his friend right but Soul Society didn't do anything about it most likely since nothing has been said about it aside from what we got from Tosen) and thus less deaths will occur and there will be "Justice" since in Tosen's mind you sacrifice a few to save many he is, contrary to popular belief not in the very least a hypocrite.--SalmanH 19:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

That's under the assumption that Tosen knows what on Aizen's mind, the fact is its not likely he seems to be manipulated by Aizen, who uses his own philosophy against him. Prime example if you recall the interaction between Tosen, Aizen and Grimmjaw. After the incident Gin remarks how how he likes to mess with his subordinates. There is no doubt through the interactions that are taking place, Gin is more of an equal in terms of status with aizen or rather favor. Tosen on the other hand follows his philosophy and acts as a lowly subordinate to aizen, always asking for forgiveness and permission. I will agree in Tosen's mind he is doing the right thing, he is following his philosophy. Notice whether it be in Soul Society or Hueco Mundo he follows Aizen just the same and has a position of authority. He also as in soul society detests Kenpachi and in hueco mundo he detests Grimmjaww, neither place is any different to him, he truly is blind. Only believing in his philosophy and the notion that some way Aizen can bring it about. So i dont think there was ever a question of whether he thinks he is following his path but there is a big argument to which way one can go about it to achieve it. He chose the way that in most others minds would be the path of most bloodshed, be it shinigami or humans. As it would stand the only way that for a outsider looking in to justify his actions would require that there is actual more bloodshed by Shinigami taking place before the entire Aizen incident which is questionable. Also your right what happened to his friend deeply effected him but, least we forget we don't know the circumstances behind her death or anything besides what he is given. He is the hypocrite in the sense to how others precise him (which is normally how people classify hypercritical actions) maybe not in his mind but that doesn't make him any less of one.Salubri 19:42, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

If I may clarify a few things:
 * Shinigami and hollows have been fighting each other for what seems like an eternity, Aizen ruling over SS and Hueco Mundo without any opposition means either genocide or no feuds at all (speculation I know).


 * I agree that Tosen is perceived by others a hypocrite though it's only been mentioned by us (real people) no one in the bleach universe however, although they are probably thinking it.


 * Tosen's a slightly bigger threat to Aizen than people give him credit for, he can't be affected by his zanpakuto has a bankai that deprives you of all your senses except for touch and has pretty damn good skills in all forms of shinigami combat granted not on par with aizen but his zanpakuto's ability does give him an edge, the whole forgiveness and permission thing probably just means that he's polite or a doormat.


 * Wasn't it already mentioned that his friend was killed by her drunk husband whom she was reprimanding for killing a friend over an argument other than that... yeah I got nothing.

(PS. I really don't like him and see him as a coward but someone needs to tell his side of the story too I suppose.)--SalmanH 20:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Regarding your second point, SalmanH, one of the Captains (Sajin Komamura) has questioned his philosophy, and questioned where his sense of justice is, essentially calling him a hypocrite for following Aizen, without using those precise words. Twocents 20:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah I forgot about that, thanks Twocents, do you want in on this whole thing too, we kinda need a second opinion.--SalmanH 20:28, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

The problem is hollows aren't good in any sense they feed on human souls there is no debating that, Aizen being in control wont stop their nature nor does it make sense to insinuate that being that he doesn't even control all Arrancar. This not a simple war against different ideologies. This is a situation of balance in the universe the Shinigami keep it and the hollow disrupt it. Aizen like you said wants power what he will do with that power is left up to be determined. As we see he doesn't seem to be the least concerned with what damage his arrancar do, they barely get punished if at all. As for Tosen being polite or a doormat is one thing but that is not whats being shown he acts like a servant more then anything and aizen excepts it, there is a level of respect you give others we have seen it in bleach between subordinates and captains but Tosen reaches a bit more then that. While its possible to be a danger to Aizen if Kenpachi can take his bankai without knowing what it does initially its fair to say aizen can take it though your correct his Aizen's zanpakuto cant affect him. Interestingly enough the one person who cant be effected by him is on his side. Yes it was mentioned about her death but by him we dont know what took place or what happened afterwords he like this situation we are discussing could have a completely skewed view of what transpired against someone he deeply cared for, its left in the air that's all im saying. Your also right we mention him being a hypocrite but they never say it outright though in other words komamura has brought it up on various occasions without going that far like twocents said. I really dont like him either he is a coward to me and one of my least favorite characters.Salubri 20:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

If you'd like SalmanH, I'll attempt to address a few of the points brought up, from my perspective.
 * I concur that, in his own mind, he has not done anything to go against his own philosophy, which does seem to suggest he's a bit more aware of what's going on than what information we readers have been given anyway. However, that doesn't prevent other people from thinking he's a hypocrite (like Sajin) or a coward (as I recall Kenpachi calling him one of the few people to fear death). It's also likely that his past experiences have had an effect on his current thoughts and actions, as you would expect with most people.


 * However, I disagree that because he cannot be affected by Aizen's Zanpakuto that he is not being manipulated. I think there are a variety of ways to trick, manipulate and control people, and while affecting what one sees is a powerful thing, so is psychologically affecting someone, which Aizen also seems to be a master at. On a side note, I would think that Gin is more resistant to that form of manipulation, seeing as he is exceptionally crafty at also using it.


 * As far as interactions with the Arrancar and Hollows, we really don't see enough of that side of it for me to formulate an opinion. Twocents 20:37, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

For the record I never really liked SalmanH it takes too long to type you could just call me hassan or hs I don't really mind, whatever you guys are comfortable with, but back to Tosen we've established that he is a coward but is following his own code his way and it doesn't matter to him what anyone else thinks about it, but I also think that because he can't be affected by Aizen's zanpakuto he became one of Aizen's right hand men in the first place and this probably done so through fear of death. So is this resolved or should we just move on to something else. In either case thanks for relaying some of your thoughts here.

We all know from TBTP that Aizen will happily frame others for his crimes. Given his penchant for planning and doing whatever it takes to advance his plans, could it be possible that Aizen killed Tosen's friend himself and blamed someone else using KS, just to set this whole thing up to get Tosen on his side? By doing that, Aizen can psychologically bribe him with this justice shpeil into following his orders (and maybe a sense of 'you still owe me'). Tosen possesses such a one-track-mind that he can't pereive any other path, and follow it blindly (bad pun, sorry) TomServo101 13:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not exactly comfortable with that, and it'd be pretty far back to plan that, it doesn't make a lot of sense, sorry.--SalmanH 14:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

'''I know no one really wants to hear too many opinions on this, but it seems to me that Tosen just hates the Soul Society. He knew this whole time from the beginning he would fight and likely kill his fellow shinigami Komamura and Hisagi and he had no prblem with that. This might mean he has no problem walking the path of his enemies' blood, but not the blood of his comrades. He might hate Soul Society, especially the gotei 13, because of what happened to his friend. No one tried to stop the woman's drunk husband and we don't even know if he was punished for it. So it might all just be revenge and the desire to have someone else takeover whom he believes will remodel the system to fit Tosen's ideals. Aizen seems to be the one who Tosen believes will do this so even if Aizen is manipulating him, he doesn't really care. He would rather pledge loyalty to dangerous and manipulative madman than Soul Society. Another tid bit, if you guys don't mind. Aizen may be a master manipulator, but why is it that he shows favoritism towards Tosen and Ichimaru over the Arrancar? Its possible because he can replace any of the Arrancar with newer and stronger ones, but would lose valuable assets in his fellow former captains. I am not saying he isn't manipulating them, but their association is leaning towards loyalty more than manipulation. Just a few theories, please don't burn me at the stake. :)--Moe1216 17:02, 3 August 2009 (UTC)'''

'''Yes but unfortunately with Aizen nothing makes sense the very idea he can manipulate and plan everything is not probable. He would have to be able to see the future and personally know the inner workings of everyone's mind to do what he does regardless of how good he is. The who explanation he gave at the soul society arc behind what he did and planned was way to far fetched to be believable the knowing about fake karakura town and that soul society would send the captains to hueco mundo also not believable if we are going from that manipulating tosen the way twoservo101 says is not improbable at all. It probably makes the most sense if you think of it, Gin was already along a path of destruction when he met him but what of tosen whats the likelihood this woman got killed by her husband drunk husband for yelling at him for killing a friend. When in soul Society as wild as it is do you recall this happening. Unless they were in the bad section but are we to believe a trained shinigami couldn't defend herself. Also ive firmly believed for a long time Aizen has been using the arrancar, if you notice he doesn't seem to care if they live or die or what they do as long its in the parameters of him being in control.Salubri 17:11, 3 August 2009 (UTC)'''

'''First off Moe you have every right to voice your opinion on this article that's one of the reasons why I started this article and second there's the whole Turn back the pendulum arc, Aizen has been planning for every possible (least or very) outcome, every twist and turn every backdoor in case there was any sort of flaw in his plans from probably in his early Shinigami days I'm talking from right out of the academy once he learned about the King's key and it's no big secret, and yes I am very aware that this is all Speculation i am really getting tired of hearing that (no hostility intended). Oh yeah I put this text and the two on top in bold cause frankly the screen's bright and the text is thin.--SalmanH 18:53, 3 August 2009 (UTC)'''

Thank you very much SalmanH. See, what I noticed about Aizen was that its not only his ability to manipulate that is dangerous; it's his charisma. He naturally draws people to him because of who he is, and it helps in his tactics. Iceringer himself said that the reason the Arrancar follow him was because he had no fear, something they found inspiring. Maybe that's what brought Tosen into his leagues. He made Tosen see that he was some kind of savior or something, and with Tosen on his side, he managed not only to turn eight shinigami into vizards, but he also helped him retrieve the hogyoku, and gain an ally who would be the only person immune to kyoka suigetsu. My point in all this is that its not only his manipulation that helped him create in army, but his ability to draw people close to himself using his charismatic nature.--Moe1216 21:14, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if Tosen is as blind in his loyalty to Aizen as everyone supposes. Tosen is very black & white in his morality. He is also a Utopianist of the worst sort...the kind that can't accept the universe the way it is and will destroy it to make it 'better'. Tosen also knows that Aizen has the potential to actually bring the massive kinds of changes he desires.

With all of the above factored in Tosen could very well calculate that the risk he takes allying with Aizen is worth the prize (Tosen's 'better world'). When all is said and done what Aizen wants is very simple...ultimate power and control. That kind of control brings with it a sort of order that could be acceptable to Tosen if it stops the sins he rails against. What happens in-between...however many bodies Tosen has to walk over...is irrelevant as long as the goal is achieved.

So the first poster isn't wrong...in this light Tosen isn't being hypocritical. He is being perversely logical, consistent, & aware in everything he does and sacrifices. Aizen may be manipulating Tosen but he does it with Tosen's full consent and knowledge.

Just my two cents.

Great Cthulhu 22:39, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I actually think that's a really interesting theory. And a very plausible one, as well. Twocents 23:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Great Cthulu, THAT WAS AWESOME.--Moe1216 01:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes Great Cthulhu, very good. Your point of view can be used to explain Tousen's behaviour so far. People just have to deal with Aizen almighty strategy skills. It's unrealistic? Yes. Does it matter? Not really, it keeps the anime flowing and full of action. Deimonos 02:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes Great Cthulhu you do make a good points into Tosen's mind set, yet just to point out I don't think anyone questions that in his mind he is following his path. But knowing that doesn't take away from how is perceived either by us or those in the storyline, his actions are highly hypocritical in relation to whatever he may believe as from the perception of others. he cant stop being hypocritical just because he justifies his view. Also aizen's being unrealistic does matter hence why it was brought up, it doesnt make the story full of action or flow thats not true there are plenty of things that take place outside of Aizen's so called plans or things not accounted for, so it actually serves no purpose and is more of a deterrence to his character.Salubri 03:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh well, and here I was thinking that the matter at hand was Tosen's odd choice of walking by Aizen's side after all that lecture about Kenpachi being all about endless fighting and the whole unecessary killing going on. As for everything else, Kubo writes the stories. Some may think the current events are too far fetched but that's how it is. "Oh but there're a lot things that could've been brought up for more plot stories and this and that".. ok, sure but at the moment, it is what it is.. so unless you're planning on writing another Bleach manga by yourself, there ain't no use in writing on every single thread about his unrealistic planning of events and everything else you think should happen. There's a thin line between expressing one's opinion and just bitching about story lines you don't like.. Deimonos 03:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Yea i do believe in what Great Cthulhu and Salubri said works on both sides. Great Cthulhu made a point on what Tosen maybe felling or believing and Salubri made a point on the outside perceptions which lead others to question his actions as hypocritical. Also on the side bar I do find the whole Aizen manipulation thing to be a bit outside of probability its just way to much wheres the character flaw that a villain normally has maybe its his arrogance and overconfidence that seems to be the biggest issue with the antagonists in the series. In any case I do believe he is using the manipulation aspect regardless of if tosen knows or not but if one was to try to give tosen the benefit of the doubt they would say he isnt aware of being used. Its one of those things we will have to see. In this upcoming fight we see Tosen and his self righteousness spouting off his philosophy on fighting to hisagi as if he knows so much, I personally get the feeling he is about to be schooled himself. lol.Innocent Anna 03:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Well you would know all about it Deimonos seeing as you seem to have to always express your opinion in disagreement of mine instead of minding your own business. Instead of bitching about me saying my opinion as im not here for you to address anything i say. ill administer whatever opinion i see fit. Your the one making up unrealistic scenarios all over place and now your using the same statement i said to you previously about making up stuff so far fetched your boarding on writing your own story. I can complain if i so choice hopefully without you having to comment on everything i say.Salubri 03:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm confused as to how Salubri's very valid point could be constituted, as you so colorfully put it, as "bitching about storylines you don't like." I think it's relevant in the sense that while we, as readers, are not in a position to understand, for example, how Aizen knew that Yamamoto would send half of the Gotei 13 to Hueco Mundo and developed a plan around it, it points out that the characters, especially Aizen, are aware and capable of controlling and manipulating situations and characters in a way that we can't see or understand, currently. Which relates to pondering precisely how or if Tosen is being manipulated, as since Aizen is capable of manipulating situations so far in advance so as it be improbable in what little of the situation we can see, it makes sense then that he is capable of manipulating people who should be immune to his abilities, even if it seems improbably to us and we can't see precisely how he's doing it. Twocents 03:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, indeed. Anime cliches tell me Aizen would have to bashed by the main character but I don't see it. Shinji has to be the one doing it. Now about Tousen, I think Great Chtulhu's idea made a lot of sense to me but then again, anything can happen. Next chapters will show us his insight. People are even thinking Hisagi will show some unrevealed bankai.. lol Deimonos 03:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Salubri. Yeah....I don't deny that my closing point about Tosen's hypocrisy was a bit weak. The truth is Tosen IS a hypocrite even if it was just because he hid the true extremity of his beliefs to appear more moderate to his fellow shinigami. Great Cthulhu 04:32, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

'''Whoa whoa, calm down, look Deimonos, Salubri I don't know what the hell happened between you but this isn't the place for your petty arguments I can't control your what you say and do that's your business and if you two want to continue your so called Bitching do it on each others talk pages otherwise keep them in check here, we were getting some pretty good ideas here let's try and keep it that way, I apologize for saying this and I'm pretty sure both of you would get pissed at me for saying this, but a forum is a place to voice your opinions right but there is a limit. Great Cthulhu along with Moe had some pretty good ideas I'd actually like to here more of that oh yeah and Twocents about Aizen knowing that Yamamoto would send half the gotei 13 to Hueco Mundo and the rest waiting in Fake Karakura I don't think he did when he appeared there he said that he knew it wasn't real but he was most likely overconfident he was missing his confident pretentious smile so he was probably trying to not lose his composure and seem irritated but he bounced back fast.--SalmanH 05:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)'''

Aizen's ability to plan does seem incredibly far fetched, but what if he has a spy in Soul Society, and that spy was able to gather all the information for Aizen? It would make sense since it his zanpakuto's ability to make people see what he wants them to see and he could use any illusion he desires on nearly everyone (if not all) in the Gotei 13, including being invisible. For all anyone knows, he has hundreds of arrancar or even shinigami spies hiding throughout Soul Society gathering all kinds of information for him. It would make sense since no one here believes Aizen was able to forsee all of Soul Society's actions.--Moe1216 12:37, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Good SalmanH and Moe. Aizen did seem annoyed and the spy angle is a great one. And his cold stare when the Vizards appeared, followed by the same overconfident smile when Shinji went to him. Maybe he's still like that because he's got Wonderweiss, who I believe is as hurt as Shunsui after the point blank cero, and the Vasto Lorde ready to make an entrance if needed be. I wonder if Gin will fight anyone since nobody went to him yet... Deimonos 14:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

That's what worries me. Aizen's is always confident for many reasons, because like Byakuya he can back up his words with action. The top 3 are still in play and have shown thay are more than enough for the shinigami, wonderweiss, like Deimonos said, is probably as hurt as Shunsui was, so he will return and show them his power, and then possibly he will bring the Espada Lorde (if he has made contact and the Vasto Lorde join him) in to finish off everyone or invade the King's dimension while their numbers and powers have weakened. --Moe1216 14:44, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I doubt the injuries for shunsui were as bad as Maragera's, Mashiro killed Fura with one kick in her vizard form without much effort and then dived like a rocket straight into that pain in the neck's mouth and smothering his cero at the same time I'd think or better yet hope that he doesn't get up for another few minutes or so where as Kyoraku was playing dead and had a few scratches, I'm pretty sure he's been through worse look at the injuries Ichigo has received (aside from being stabbed in the chest) he survived those and kept on fighting and he doesn't have nearly as much experience as kyoraku and Stark was definitely trying not to kill him.--SalmanH 19:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure you've all heard the saying 'Justice is Blind', and while it generally applies to criminals getting away scot free, it can sort of apply here; Tosen is so caught up in his 'crusade', he doesn't see/care who else gets hurt.

As for how he anticipated the captains being sent to HM, it doesn't really require that much in bait and planning and more in 'know your enemy'; he knew (or at least make an educated guess based on years of personal contact) that Yamamoto tends to use excessive force to deal with threats, so he probably knew that Yama'd send a strong force to deal with it quickly; Aizen could then play his cards accordingly (with FKT being the result). TomServo101 19:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually the phrase "justice is blind" refers to judges or jurists being objective and impartial in their verdicts. It means the same as this phrase from Leviticus: "You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor." (Lev 19:15, ESV). Tosen's problem is that he has become an avatar for an ultimate idealized order with no excuses allowed for human weakness or eccentricities. You either conform or you die. His ideals are so perverted that its hard to call them justice anymore.

As far as baiting a trap to get opponents to come to Hueca Mundo where they could be cut off and seperated from the battle in Fake Karakura Town Tomservo101 has a point. Aizen didn't need to know how many or who exactly was going to come rescue Orihime. It is enough that it lure off some powerful people from the decisive battle. And it did...a handful of captains and Lieutenants went to HM. For that matter its the same strategy used to lure Hitsugaya away from the Central 46 chambers during the execution only on a grand scale. Great Cthulhu 20:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Obviously, the context I use it is a modern perversion of the original meaning.

I was actually referring to just the captains, but now you mention it, he's played exactly the same trick with Ichigo & co twice, probably Central 46, and I suspect the Vizards too.

Would I be churlish in saying that they're too predictable? TomServo101 21:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to say they're "predictable" when you don't even realize their predictability until after the events have occured. Twocents 21:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Well...the phrase "Justice Is Blind" means what it means. So no...your use of the phrase wasn't obvious.

I don't think Aizen is being predictable. Sure...the tactics are working on the same basic principles but he has been able to adapt them for the new situations and keep them useful. The truth is that the Orihime affair seemed like a valid threat...one that could not be ignored. The Captain-General would have to treat it as if it was true. Its basic divide and conquer strategy. And Aizen lost nothing if it failed to draw the response he was looking for. I'm sure he prepared for the possibility that the Shinigami wouldn't fall for it and have their full strength at Fake Karakura Town. Great Cthulhu 21:45, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Another way to look at it isn't that Aizen is becoming predictable but rather that his strategy is characteristic of him. Great Cthulhu 21:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to Aizen. I meant the good guys. TomServo101 22:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The good guys aren't being predictable. Frankly I think they should of gotten more credit for switching out Karakura Town with Fake Karakura Town. Having Aizen go "Phooey. I knew all about this. Suckers." was kind of disappointing.

Otherwise the good guys are on the defensive which only leaves so many options to choose from. Short of launching an all-out attack on HM they probably couldn't of done more. Great Cthulhu 22:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

A point of clarification - Aizen did not say he knew they were going to do the Fake Karakura Town. He simply said, once he was there, that he was aware that it wasn't the real thing. And then he modified his plan to account for it. There's a difference. But I do agree that they do seem to be more in a position of having to guess about what's going to happen regarding Aizen, and that given the minimal amount of information they had available, they've done well. Twocents 23:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I think we're actually deviating from the original concept of this article but go ahead, Great Cthulhu mentioned a divide and conquer strategy actually I think that it was a counter strategy where as Yama jii's was possibly a pincer movement.--SalmanH 05:57, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the input you 3.

Deep down, I think even Aizen was impressed with the idea of the switch. Whether or not Yama is just using this as a stalling tactic, and he's got word to the Royal Guard or something, I'm not sure. And going on an all-out-attack would be very unwise, simply due to the fact that they have no intel as to Aizen's reinforcements; as far we can tell, all of SS's big guns (bar Nanao) are already fighting; throwing all your eggs in one basket leaves you no room to manuvere. That said, IF SS can win here, it'd force the Espada back to HM, delivering them right to Ichigo, Byakuya, etc. So SalmanH could very well have spotted the chink in the armour of Aizen's strategy.

Back to Tosen, I wonder as to how far he trusts Aizen (and Gin for that matter). All of Aizen's ploys can't have gone unnoticed. Whether or not he's decided to ignore them in the name of 'justice' is another matter. TomServo101 08:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah that could be something In terms of numbers and most likely quality Yama jii may have have thought that should Aizen lose the the battle in FK he might retreat to Hueco Mundo but he already knows that some Captains are there so the most probable outcome is that he will stay in FK and not risk an ambush in Mundo, as for Tosen to be honest right now I have no idea what he thinks of Gin and Aizen.--SalmanH 10:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Tosen's trust of Gin and Aizen is an interesting question. I'm going with the idea that Tosen isn't a fool. He serves faithfully because its dangerous to cross Aizen and because Aizen represents his best means of bringing his utopia to life. As long as Aizen looks like a good opportunity Tosen will serve in whatever capacitiy Aizen deems fit. I also think there is a bit of hero worship there so Tosen is willing to put his pride and doubts aside to serve.

Gin...I have no idea. Perhaps he is willing to not worry about Gin and leave it to Aizen to sort him out. Maybe they are actually friends. Hard to tell with the little bit of information we have.

Great Cthulhu 01:45, 7 August 2009 (UTC)