Bleach Wiki talk:Masked Project

Confused
Ok I get most of this but the actual issue about what to do with the romainzation change you gave an outline but what is it asking for. Shouldn't it be a simple name change as it appears your addressing other stuff but I dont know what. Also what are these new characters? --Salubri (Talk)  17:01, August 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * The new characters are the command structure that existed during the Turn back the pendulum arc. The 10th Division had no captain and it seems the 11th Division had no lieutenant. Otherwise, the hitherto unseen lieutenants of Love, Rose, Yoruichi, Ginrei and the 11th division Kenpachi was revealed in Mask. Rose's lieutenant is Tetsuzaemon Iba's mother, Love's lieutenant is Sentarō Kotsubaki's father, Yoruichi's lieutenant is Marechiyo Ōmaeda's father and Ginrei's lieutenant is his son and Byakuya's father. Also, according to the MASKED that the correct romanisation is Visored not Vizard and the correct romanisation of Izuru is Iduru, it's Risa not Lisa, Syunsui not Shunsui and finally, Sui-Feng not Soifon. Tinni   (Talk)  17:16, August 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yamamoto is named as Shigekuni Yamamoto Genryūsai too. And Unnamed Hollow (Chapter 184)A & Unnamed Hollow (Chapter 184)B are referred to as Menos Grande, similar to the Demi-Hollow issue recently. 18:30, August 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe I'm expecting worse than we will actually have to deal with, but if every single thing is changed at once, it gets hard to keep on top of things. So I figured we'd do it one character at a time and only move onto the next when that character is done. We need to find and correct old spellings in the articles (Eg change Tesla to Tesra, which is likely to be on Nnoitra, Orihime, Ichigo, Nel & Zaraki's pages, episode & chapter pages). I just felt that it is easier to do all that for one character at a time rather than having to do it for 10 or more at once. Once a page has been moved & all issues dealt with, the conversation should be moved to the archive on the character's page. I have no issues with changing this, it was just what I thought best. 17:21, August 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok well now I see where we are gonna have a problem this is gonna be kinda ridiculous if we have to change the name of established characters every character book cause no one can make up their minds. I can see for the arrancar and the Vizard. But the Souls as well as various other media have listed these names for years and now it changes if this is an issue I say its a translation one and should at least be determined whats correct the way we do most translations. If there has been anything Viz has been suspicious with its always been the correct translation which tend to be heavily americanized translations of the actual japanese. If the research of the translations are found to be correct as the new version then thats fine. But some of these cant be accurate especially if they only lead to destabilizing the wiki every time someone comes out with a new databook or something that just calls more work.Salubri (Talk)  17:28, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

The Arrancar might actually be easier to get done than any of the other existing characters' articles, even though they themselves will be tough to completely sort out. Some of the current romanizations we have are used in the English dub of the anime (I'll confirm which ones later), so we can avoid using the "Incorrectly romanized label" unnecessarily. I'm not suggesting those pages stay the way they are, but just for clarification, we indicate what was also used in the English version of the anime (like how Ririn is "Lirin" in the dub). As for the English on some of the existing characters' pages... this is a real debatable issue, especially for "Shunsui" being translated as "Syunsui". I've been through this discussion before and have seen a case similar to this one. I think for some of these, we probably should consult our Translation Corner, since the translators, both officially (Viz Media) and unofficially, have identified the translation and pronunciation of some names to be closer to what we have over what is new on this book (though, "Iduru" isn't new; this romanization has come up before). For now, I recommend this just for Kyoraku and Kira, since it's their names that might have the most pronunciation and romanization issues right now; "Risa" would probably work anyway, since "L" doesn't exist in the Japanese language. Arrancar109 (Talk)  17:49, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out that the Japanese version of SOULs and Colourful Bleach never romanised Gotei 13 name. This is the first time the Gotei 13 names have been officially romanized by Kubo. Plus official merchandise in Japan have always had those romanization. We just ignored them in favour of Viz for names because we thought Viz could be relied upon for at least that. We were wrong. In this case its not even about translation as in the MASKED, those names are written in plain english characters. This is the first time that's been done. Every other databook those name were only given in Japanese and thus open for translation error from fan translators and Viz. This is the first time that is not the case. Kubo wrote them himself and so I would say this is the definitive english spelling for those names. Tinni  (Talk)  17:52, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

We still need to check out these translations, the kanji will prove what translator is wrong on this account not to mention we have had various instances of people stating Kubo's involvement even from Kubo himself and the final prodect as well as what is stated is largely suspect. Least we forget that SoulS was originally printed in japanese when it first came out as well. Either written by kubo or not the original books are in japanese if Viz is mis translating then fine but the Kanji provides us the real romanization for those who know how to do it. We cant continue stating we take things at face value just because Kubo maybe involved. As majority of use dont read japanese hence why we rely on translators who get in wrong on occasion hence why we have a translation corner. I cant rightly protest most of the new characters but Shunsui, soifon and Kira we need to know for sure as Arrancar109 said this isnt the first time these have been brought up. Salubri (Talk)  18:03, August 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Here is a scan I found of Soifon/Sui-Feng's profile in the book as a reference for the romanization in case anyone hasn't seen the actual thing yet. The Shadow Dragon (talk) 19:18, August 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * The scan here wasn't translated; it was written out, which is our problem here. Nobody is denying the legitimacy of whether it was written out in letters or not; what is happening is we're questioning how it was translated. As I pointed out earlier, this problem has come up in the past, and the way it is written out can vastly differ from the way it is actually translated. As Salubri stated, we're going to go by translating the Kanji through our translation corner, since it is the most reliable way to get the proper translation. Arrancar109 (Talk)  19:35, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the next move at this point is to check the statement of Authorship. Kubo put one at the end of SOULs and at the end of MASKED. It is true that Kubo has often claimed to be a part of the movies and the anime fillers but the final product have always proved that he is not as involved as he claimed to be. However, Kubo is unlikely to lie or make things up in the statement of Authorship. Certainly in the statement of authorship in SOULs, Kubo makes clear his exact amount of contribution and where he has had help. My suggestion, get Adam to confirm that Kubo actually said he wrote the english names. If he says he did that in statement of authorship then it doesn't matter what we think about it. We have to go with them. Just like we did with Harribel, Starrk etc. Tinni   (Talk)  19:46, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

Not the prettiest picture, but here is a collage of all the name changes that I found with the kanji listed on them so they can be verified. I can post a full size pic of any individual image if needed. 19:55, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, the real heart of the problem with the romanization of the Japanese names may actually stem from one simple fact: Which system of romanization is being used. Kubo apparently uses the Nihon-shiki system, in which "Syunsui" and "Iduru" (for example) are the correct romanizations, whereas we (as do many other non-native Japanese translators) use a largely Hepburn-based one, which would make the two names "Shunsui" and "Izuru". The pronunciations obviously remain the same in both systems. A similar case could be drawn for "Sui-Feng", though I do not know of the particular romanization systems for Chinese that are used in Japan. MarqFJA (talk) 01:10, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the Kanji/Hanzi which make up Sui-feng's name would, in Mandarin Chinese, be read (without tone marks) sui + feng. The romanization of these as "Sui-Feng" or "Sui-feng" (since the entry is in all caps, it's hard to tell what the normal capitalization would be) fits Western habits, e.g. ''Chow Yun-fat.

As for mixing the Hepburn- and Nihon-shiki, this happened before, with filler dude "Syunsuke"(?) Amagai. And we've known Japanese sources have romanized Kira's name as "Iduru" for a while. Since the Arrancar names are based on stylized alterations of real words, we defer to Kubo (ditto with Sui-feng's Sinitic name); but with words in a real language, such as the majority of the other character's Japanese names, I say we stick with the correct Hepburn forms we've been using. Especially given the inconsistencies of these "official" forms, e.g. the whole use of Syu alongside Shu when they're the same sound, and the fact that e.g. Hitsugaya's first name, properly Toushirou/Tōshirō, is rendered "Toushiro" here, as though the second long ou was short o. I understand similar crap happened in an earlier book, where Shiba was rendered as both "Shiba" and "Siba" though the same name.

As far as Kubo's part in that post-script, it's pretty messy--esp. the sig. Does anyone know if this is how Kubo usu. signs? Adam Restling (talk) 02:34, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

New translations
Yeah I had a strange feeling when viz translated apache as apachi. I think someone at shueshia(their parent company) gave them the heads up on that so it would not need to be changed later. So, I have a feeling that any of the names viz has translated in the last two months are the official name spellings. But, man if this is really legit than the next few weeks editing-wise will be complete and utter HELL. But, man if we think we were screwed...poor viz! Everything manga and anime name wise might be completely wrong, I mean manga you can re-print with an updated translation...but anime... aww man! But again for all we know this could have all been photoshopped for a good laugh(sick people) and before we change anything lets wait for one of us to get a copy of masked. --Lemursrule (talk) 22:56, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Viz cares. After all, aren't they the folks who gave us "Cero = 'doom blast,'" and continue to misspell it as Sero in subtitles XD? Adam Restling (talk) 02:35, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

No, they use cero in the subtititles and they only used doom blast in volume 22 and never used it again. In all of their manga and subbed and dubbed releases they use cero.--Lemursrule (talk) 03:28, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I saw it still misspelled as "Sero" in the subtitles of one of the latest anime volumes released in the US, when Yammy was about to shoot one at Yoruichi I believe it was.

But you're right; overall, when not taken with flights of fancy like "doom blast"/"doom cero"/"cero," they spell several things pretty correctly. I abhor all the inconsistencies with say, ô alongside o alongside oh alongside ou, but then, all translators from the beginning unto forever fail at that, so it's not just Viz. Adam Restling (talk) 05:43, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

New birthdays
Apparently Arrancars have birthdays, well I guess their birthday is the day they became Arrancars. --Lemursrule (talk) 00:07, August 3, 2010 (UTC) Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  21:42, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ulquiorra December 1st
 * Grimmjow July 31st(Leo makes sense)
 * Nnoitra November 11th
 * Tesla/Tesra May 13th
 * Neliel April 24th
 * Yammy April 3rd
 * Luppi June 5th
 * Pesche May 25th
 * Dondochaka June 30th
 * Loly January 27th
 * Menoly December 7th
 * Cirucci February 27th
 * Dordoni August 28th
 * Zommari October 13th(goes with his whole voodoo theme)
 * Aaroniero April 23rd
 * D.Roy June 19th
 * Shawlong November 4th
 * Edorad August 25th
 * Yilfordt June 22nd
 * Nakeem August 3rd(day before my b-day)
 * Wonderweiss July 6th
 * Iceringer/Aisslinger November 23rd
 * Demora July 27th
 * Szayel June 22nd
 * Gantenbein September 21st
 * Shinji Hirako May 10th (Mother's Day?)

How are October 13th and Voodoo related?Erik1310 (talk) 13:41, August 5, 2010 (UTC) October 13th is a reference to the term friday the 13th, the unluckiest day in the year. When October 13 falls on a Friday, in urban legends it is considered more unlucky than usually, thus the term "bad voodoo." All of Zomari's attacks are based on Louisiana Voodoo. --Lemursrule (talk) 16:20, August 5, 2010 (UTC)

Here are the rest of the Vizard's birthdays (well, I guess it's Visoreds now) except for Hachi. Also Ginrei's b-day came in that Pendulum data picture. I hope I got them right

Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  07:17, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Love October 10th
 * Rose March 17th
 * Kensei July 30th
 * Mashiro April 1st
 * Hiyori August 1st
 * Lisa February 3rd
 * Ginrei Kuchiki June 2nd

Thanks for those. All the ones in the current list have now been added, but in future please add any newly found birthdays to the Bleach Wiki:Masked Project rather than the talk page. There is no need for two lists. 13:00, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

All those *kwazy* Arrancar
This is a section I plan to steadily update (forgive my sloth) with the katakana and stuff relating mostly to the Arrancar--unless said section is deleted and I'm banished XD.

First, though, somebody please change Yammy's surname from "LLargo" to "Llargo," since it prob. shouldn't have two letters capitalized. I'd do it, but I don't want to step on toes by being a loose canon, and the templates hate me ;).

In alpha-order by surname (mostly I'll be filling in the kana not previously provided anywhere):

Loly Aivirrne (ロリ·アイヴァーン Rori Aivān)

Luppi Antenor (ルピ·アンテノール Rupi Antenōru)

Tesra Lindocruz (テスラ·リンドクルツ Tesura Rindokurutsu)

Menoly Mallia (メノリ·マリア Menori Maria)

Aisslinger Wernarr (アイスリンガー·ウェルナール Aisuringā Werunāru)

Demoura Zodd (デモウラ·ゾッド Demoura Zoddo)

Hopefully there's no goofs so far :). Adam Restling (talk) 02:56, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

All those are right except luppi's second one. Tensa Zabimaru (talk) 06:04, August 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * How do you mean? What's wrong with it? Adam Restling (talk) 05:28, August 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep in mind that there is more than one method for Japanese romanization of foreign words; "Antenōru" is a valid romanization of "Antenor", if a somewhat unusual one. MarqFJA (talk) 12:21, August 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's been the source of our greatest dilemma when dealing with the stylized and exotic Arrancar names. But in the picture of the Arrancar romanized names provided, Luppi's surname is given as "Antenor," with the phonetica katakana rendering thereof next to it. I provided both correctly above, so I was confused why Tensa said something was wrong.


 * And anyway, the official romanization of it is, according to the book, "Antenor," so Antenōru is only valid as a romanization of, strictly, its katakana adaptation, and not the name being so-adapted. Adam Restling (talk) 03:35, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

The "Soul Reapers" (< Kubo's preferred term?)
In case this was missed on the Translation page:

Jinemon Kotsubaki (小椿刃右衛門 Kotsubaki Jinemon)¹ "blade-guard gates | small camellia"

Chikane Iba (射場千鉄 Iba Chikane)² "thousand-iron/ore(s) | shot range"

The previous Kenpachi was Kiganjou (鬼厳城) "demon-harsh castle"; his former name was Gosuke (五助) "five(fold?) aid(e)" (cf. previous discussion of the name suffix -suke)

Soujun Kuchiki (朽木蒼純 Kuchiki Soujun) "blue-pure | rot tree"

Marenoshin Oomaeda (大前田希ノ進 Oomaeda Marenoshin) "phenomenal-advance | great before the (rice) field"

¹The sequence (右)衛門 -emon itself seems clearly inspired by names like that of the famous Japanese folk hero Goemon Ishikawa, as it is likely, also, in Iba's first name.

²The same element 鉄 tetsu, kane "iron, strong" appears in both Tetsuzaemon and Chikane's names. The unusual reading kane for the graph may have been to emphasize the intended significance of "strong metal (in general)."

Maybe I'll include some trans. when I've more time... y'know, just for kicks! (a.k.a. pointlessly) XD Adam Restling (talk) 03:20, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I did it XD. However, if there are some hidden linguistic puns beyond the more-lit. trans. that I missed, please forgive me :). Adam Restling (talk) 03:20, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Here are some pics of Kubo's soul reapers--Lemursrule (talk) 05:03, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

In case people are a little confused about this one, we will never, ever, ever use Soul Reaper as it is not a romanization but an adaptive translation of the Japanese term "Shinigami" (the literal translation of Shinigami is Death (Shini) God (kami/gami)). We will stick to the Japanese word "Shinigami". Indeed, where possible, we will always use the original Japanese term such as Jigokuchō (for hell butterfly), Kidō etc. In fact, I encourage you all to go through the wiki and flag any articles that are not using the Japanese term for a name change/page move. Thank you. Tinni  (Talk)  03:44, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, but then also "Visored" is such an adaptive translation of Kamen no Gunzei, "Arrancar" is an adaptive translation of Yamen, etc. If the intended reading is meant to be "Soul Reaper(s)," then apparently that's what it should be, even as the intended readings Visored and Arrancar etc. are--despite the odd circumstances (i.e. Kubo not doing as he does with the other terms and, say, writing it as "死神 (ソウル · リーパー) Souru Rīpā"). But if we reject "Soul Reaper(s)" because it's such an adaptive trans., we run the risk of opening a Pandora's box with regard to similar adaptations, which proliferate in BLEACH. Adam Restling (talk) 03:22, August 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * O no, no, that's not what I meant to imply at all! I meant we use Shinigami because that's what the characters say in the original Japanese. I mean, if you watch the original anime, you can hear the characters saying "Shinigami". Just like you can hear the characters saying "Arrancar" and "Visored". What I meant was that we know how to write Shinigami, a word that pre-dates Bleach, in English. Which is different from Visored, which is a modified non-Japanese word and so we don't really know how we are suppose to write it in English. If that makes sense... Tinni   (Talk)  03:29, August 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, my question regarding this is: Can "Shinigami" translate to "Soul Reaper" as well, or is it just limited to the literal translation as "Death God"? Because if it can, then what we could have is something like: . This itself wouldn't change our site's standards, but it also wouldn't neglect the "Soul Reaper" translation as just "Viz's". Arrancar109 (Talk)  03:33, August 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Arrancar109 you were apart of this decision when we made it so why are you backtracking. very few people ever brought this up and its mostly people who wanted to americanize everything and had not appreciation for japanese. SoulS says Soul Reaper too its a dumbed down version of whats supposed to be stated. What your asking would allow horrible mistranslations and changes all over the site. Salubri (Talk)  03:41, August 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was simply asking if it were a possible translation, not that we go around and use "Soul Reaper" everywhere where "Shinigami" is already listed. My mind hasn't changed about that; we're keeping that the way it is. I was only asking if it's a possible translation and not just something that Viz came up with, or in this case, something that the databook is just referencing. Arrancar109 (Talk)  03:51, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

I believe Jinnemons is more accurate (with two N since the hiragana says Ji-n-ne-mo-n instead of simply Ji-ne-mo-n). An N to go together with the I sound in order to make it nasal and another one to form the ne sound. - Fraccion (talk) 02:42, August 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Where are you seeing a second n ? There's only JI- N -E-MO-N in the picture. Adam Restling (talk) 03:00, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

Avast you Lorde
Yyp brought the bottom right passage (under Lemurs' Soul Reaper pics) to my attention, so I took a hand at translating it.

Here are the results of that trial:

'' Weko Mundo ni suuta sonzaisuru Arankaru no naka de, kakuzetsushita nouryoku to jitsuryoku wo motsumonotachi-sore ga " Esupāda " de aru. Kousei menbā ha, Menosu Gurande no saijoui de aru " Vasuto  Rōde " kyuu ga hotondo*. Sono jitsuryoku ni oujite, sorezore ga Aizen kara suuji wo sazukerarete iru.''

Amongst the great numbers of Arrancar that exist in Hueco Mundo, possessors of exceptional ability and efficacy-these are the "Espada." The members which comprise them are mostly* the highest rank of Menos Grande, the "Vasto Lorde" class. Depending on their efficacy each is, from Aizen, bestowed a number.

The word suuta "great number(s)" could also be read amata, but I chose in my uncertainty the reading which included the more recognizable word for "number(s)," suu.

The real crux of what this means for our understanding of the Vasto Lorde-Espada connections, and their possibly-big implications therefor, is the word I put an asterisk after: hotondo, which can mean either "mostly" OR "almost."

Even here, there *seems* an enduring thread of ambiguity. While the meaning "mostly" does seem the more likely, there remains, even here, the (slim?) possibility that most of the Espada are, as one of the posters above mentioned, almost the highest class of Menos Grande, almost Vasto Lorde, but haven't yet achieved that rank.

For those who scoff at how then, in this theory, could the class of "Adjuchas" be soooo varied as to include extremely weak "Adjuchas" like Shawlongtachi, but then up to extremely powerful "Adjuchas" like Ulquiorra and the Top 4 Espada, you need only look at the vast gulfs that seem to exist in the ostensibly-singular "captain class" between, say, Kurotsuchi and Kyouraku (Yamamoto seems clearly to be a whole other rank of his own).

As I've argued before, if we think of the tiers of the "Gillian" as the lowest depths, and the "Vasto Lorde" the highest heights, that leaves a vast sphere in-between them for the wildly-varied middle tier of the "Adjuchas."

Bottom line (in case of "tl;dr"), is that even now, I couldn't say for sure, and neither does the wording in the Japanese passage above. It can be highly suggestive that Kubo (?) meant the Espada were almost all "Vasto Lorde," but again it's just ambiguous enough. Sure seems like what was intended, though.

One thing's for sure: if almost all the Espada were "Vasto Lorde," then with their record of 0 confirmed protag kills, they should've been called "Vasto Letdown" XD. And sorry when I can't bring a definitive answer to these questions; hopefully that will change once I burrow into Kubo's brain and gain his knowledge ;). Adam Restling (talk) 05:39, August 5, 2010 (UTC)

New Char. profiles images
i've uploaded them here for when the articles are finally created. --RexGodwin (talk) 23:45, August 5, 2010 (UTC)

Why you flipped image of Chikane, Soujun and Kenpachi? Soujun wore kenseikan on the left side, but your picture show the opposite. Same for Chikane's gray locks. I think that pictures must be replaced.--Layol (talk) 09:52, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * The images have been fixed. 12:26, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

"Vizard" or "Visored" ?
Thanks to this databook, the issue of which spelling romanization is correct has been settled (until they change their minds again and call them "Reap Soulers" ;) XD).

On Tinni's request, I illustrate etymological/linguistic support for the official spelling "Visored" (some of which is, I believe, still cited also on the Wiki):

The word visor itself is, of course, used for something that shields the eyes or face, usually confined these days to such attachments on, say, the caps of golfers. But more archaically/rarely it can describe disguises, such as masks. Its transitive verb past tense form, as well as adjective, "visored," is also attested.

The most important thing, though, comes in the pronunciation of this, versus the pronunciation of the other (related) word, vizard, archaic for "mask":

visored [ˈväɪz.ɚd] "VEYEZ-uhrd" vs.

vizard [ˈvɪz.ɚd] "VIHZ-uhrd"

That is, the word vizard is actually pronounced exactly the same as English wizard, just with an initial v- in place of the w-. In Japanese phonetically-adapting katakana, then, vizard should prob. have been rendered ヴィザード vizādo.

However, the actual name of the group featured in BLEACH is written ヴ ァイ ザード V ai zādo, with the sequence -ai- indicating the proper pronunciation as being like English [äɪ] "eye," which is also the proper pronunciation of the -i- in the English word v i sored.

Thus, in summation, "Visored" is the correct spelling, and its etymology and phonology supports it well :).

P.S. Sorry I keep ruining the placements of everybodys' pictures. I don't mean to, and am too doltish to figure out how to fix it myself :(. Adam Restling (talk) 03:28, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for Adam. I guess its now time for the admins to decide. BTW, don't worry about the images, I have sorted those out. Tinni  (Talk)  03:37, August 6, 2010 (UTC)