Talk:Jugram Haschwalth/Archive 2

Regarding Haschwalth's early appearances
How can we be sure that he is the one who asked Yhwach whether or not Arrancars should really be disposed of so carelessly since they're valuable soldiers (chapter 485)?

Since at the time Haschwalth was masked, we can't really tell whether it was him or someone else, right? Even though it can be assumed that it was Haschwalth and I think it most probably was, however I don't think it should be stated that he was the one who said that on the page, since we don't have any explicit information supporting it.

And also, shouldn't we state that he was part of the group that declared war on the Soul Society in the plot section? --Ginhikari (talk) 18:30, September 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * We don't know if he was with the Arrancar that went there, and when he asked about disposing of the Arrancar, he was not wearing a mask

Ok. But he most certainly was masked in chapter 485. Look at page 15. Haschwalth isn't really seen until chapter 486. It is one of the masked men who declared war on Soul Society who says the thing about disposing Arrancar. Sorry for the inconvenience, but there isn't really enough evidence to say he's the one who said that. --Ginhikari (talk) 19:28, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Sword
The current description mentions his.sword as being narrow, but it appears that it isn't that narrow, especially when he attacked Cang Du. Also, shouldn't we add a picture? SilverRain (talk) 06:20, November 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * I've updated the description, but there aren't any decent images of Haschwalth's sword thus far, so until we get one there's no need to have a picture illustrating it.--Xilinoc (talk) 07:17, November 29, 2013 (UTC)

Grammar
"Haschwalth and Shunsui exchange comments on how the battle is progressing, leading to Haschwalth stating he is there to tip the balance in favor of the Wandenreich."

"Stating the scales of the fight must be fair..."

If I'm not mistaken, in the bolded parts of the two aforementioned quotes, shouldn't there be "that" after both instances of "stating"? I'd change it myself, but the page is locked. SilverRain (talk) 07:07, December 4, 2013 (UTC)

The Key
Should we add that he can apparently set up a method of travel to the Royal Realm to his powers and abilities? I feel like that's pretty noteworthy~ SilverRain (talk) 01:22, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

Jugrams Age
Hey guys it never states he or Bazz B are 1000+ years old. Now I am pretty sure this violates the wikias rule in regards to speculation being added as fact. Why is this allowed? And can someone please fix this?

TraumatizerAUS (talk) 10:14, July 1, 2015 (UTC)TraumatizerAUS


 * So then you must think we placed information there just because, seeing as the staff here doesnt know the rules. The other option is that the recent manga chapters shows that they both were alive 1000+ years ago before Yhwach made his original war against Soul Society. That would be a directly attributed amount of time.--

It never states it was a thousand years ago or that it was in preparations for the first war against the shinigami. The statement of Yhwach being over 200 years old could be because Bazz may of been only aware of the second war 200 years ago. The reaction of Zeidritz also could be in regards to the failed war 200 years prior. The following chapter has the Soldat wearing ties which were not present 1000 years ago and since it was only a 5 year skip you can't make the arguement that Yhwach was referencing the first war or the second since it was a 20th century tie. Yhwach is the only Quincy specified to be 1000 years old so his age is not in question. Nothing in the scenery i either chapter is 11th century and the Licht Reich could be the shadow world that the Wanderreich resides in. So there is no reason to state they are 1000+ when they don't state it nor is it implied enough for it to be stated as such. Because if you are going to add implied info then Espada 1-6 at least are Vasto Lorde according to both the Japanese version and the English translation MOST of the Espada are Vasto Lorde and the definition of most is the lions share, largest part, more than the rest and so on. I don't mean to come off as aggressive or rude but it is pure speculation that they are 1000+ years old.

TraumatizerAUS (talk) 12:24, July 1, 2015 (UTC)TraumatizerAUS

Actually it isn't speculation. Yhwach was present for the events in 631-632, right? But he has been asleep for a thousand years, right? Meaning he wasn't active during the war two hundred years ago. Now, logically, if Yhwach is awake it can't take place during the thousand years he slept, can it? And you can't say it takes place after he woke up, because then Zeidrits wouldn't be there and Yhwach would have the same appearance as in the present. -- 13:09, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

During the 999 years of the Kaiser Gersang he regained his abilities in stages, because it was at the end of the ninth day during his fight with Ichibei that he regained his eyes/powers but if he was asleep for the entire time then he wouldn't be awake until that point in time. So it is clear that he could of been mobile during those years after the first 900 years or the next ninety. And Zeidrits could of died during the initial battle of the Wanderreichs invasion in this arc at the hands of Yamamoto during his rage filled fight with Royd or on his way to it. So since it was established that during the 999 years and 9 days that after each stage he regained his powers/abilities/functions in increments then he could of regained movement at either the end of the first or second stage thus countering the argument that he was immobile/inactive during that period of time it allows for the possibility of it happening within 5 years up to before the sealing of Yhwach. Now as for Yhwachs appearance this could be because Royd was taking his form for most of what we saw of him prior to the initial assault, or Yhwachs appearance changes due to him "awakening", time of day or Yhwach splitting his soul everywhere. And I never said he was present during the second war but that his claim of being over 200 years could be because of the second war being all Bazz had knowledge of. There is no concrete evidence as of chapter 632 for the assertion that Jugram and Bazz are 1000 years old but there is evidence that contradicts that assertion.

TraumatizerAUS (talk) 13:34, July 1, 2015 (UTC)TraumatizerAUS


 * First Its a 5 year time skip in what is already a flashback that takes place well over that time. You are creating a situation of what ifs and maybe's. Tessai states in chapter 36 that the last time he heard of Quincy was 200 yrs ago. Urahara then explains what they are and that they were destroyed over 200 yrs ago. There is no more information given. Its speculative to even use that as it was a footnote in the history where no details are given and even less is known and is overshadowed by the information on the history of the Quincy we are currently being given. Im also not sure why your using real world logic for this story, fashion doesnt dictate anything about what time it is. Bleach has numerous styles and things of modern look to them before there time and many times has shown technology far above what is capable for even the current era. Yhawch appeared 2 times, once 1000 yrs ago and currently. Also Zeidritz, Hubert, Algora are alive in said flashback. But they are dead in the current arc having been killed by Yamamoto himself. The only thing you have proven is that instead of 1000 they maybe 200 but it doesnt explain Yhwach's presence. For what you say to work you would have to explain quite alot. Such as how Yhwach is up and about making plans and conquering territory with his powers when he spent most of the 1000 yrs sealed for 900 years with no pulse, power or intellect? How do you know there is anything especially countries and normal land and civilization in the Shadow world? What we do know is Yhwach was active 1000 yrs ago and as recent as 9yrs ago. That Zeidritz, Hubert & Algora havent been seen living except in this flashback and if Yhwach is there as young as he looks then it would have to be 1000 yrs ago. Also seeing that is the closest he looks to Old Man Zangetsu in the flashback as pointed out what he looked like 1000 yrs ago by Oetsu.--


 * You are also confused on the 999 yrs. 9 years ago he regained his power via Auswählen which resulted in the death of Masaki Kurosaki and Kanae Katagiri. The conclusion of fight with Ichibe which resulted in the usage of "The Almighty" was in relation to the amount of time they originally stated that Soul Society would fall. Your still using speculation of what if and maybe's there is no proof of Zeidritz, Huberts or Algoras involvement in this invasion or proof they were killed prior Seeing as Yammoto appeared killed Driscol went after Yhwach defended himself against NaNaNa, Bazz-B and As-Nodt and then fought Royd Loyd in Yhwachs guise before he fought Yhwach. We literally saw only that. --

On top of everything previously mentioned by Sal and Gin, it's clear that this flashback is detailing the formation of the Sternritter, no? Now, Yhwach is creating the Sternritter because he wishes to invade Soul Society for the first time. How do we know it's the first time? The narration states he's only 200 years old at this point, while he's well over 1000 in the present day, and we know he's fought with Yamamoto before (1000 years ago, to be precise); this means that all this is taking place prior to that battle. And on top of that, Yhwach had The Almighty active during this period, but when it was activated against Ichibei, Haschwalth stated that Yhwach hadn't been able to use it until the full 999 years were up, meaning that this has to have taken place before that. The evidence is stacked against you, m8.--Xilinoc (talk) 15:10, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

Don't forget he is the son of the soul king and as such he would age at a different rate and his splitting of the soul may affect his appearance because we see him as a pitch black baby then a white teen(?) looking like Tensa Zangetsu yet the next flash back we see of him he looks like Zangetsu and in the present day we have seen him age from adult in chapter 485 to middle aged in chapter 607 so using his appearance based on age is out because we have seen it fluctuate in this arc within the present day. I am not denying the possibility of them being 200 or even more unlikely 1000 but it is stated as their ages when it is pure speculation.

Now as to the formation of the Stern Ritter if it was formed 1000 years ago then the Vollstanding and their unique abilities would of been documented and Stern Ritter J would not of said that the Vollstanding was a recent development that was opposed by those who clung to the old ways like Uryuus grand father. We see As Nodt in a modern day hospital presumably in the living world with a bible by his bed 1000 years ago bibles were not in book format yet alone in such a small size that must be post removal of the dead sea scrolls, book of judas and the other removed 40~50% of the book and then he is greeted by Yhwach as he approaches him. So since Yhwach has been shown to have a fluctuating appearance age wise in the present, the discussion of the Vollstanding by SR J, the recruitment of SR F and the lack of knowledge of the Vollstanding by the likes of Urahara but most of all it NEVER STATES as of chapter 632 that this flash back is set 1000+ years ago.

TraumatizerAUS (talk) 16:06, July 1, 2015 (UTC)TraumatizerAUS

Can you please stop? Thank you. Listen, you are grasping at straws here. Yhwach wants to invade Soul Society for the first time. That happened 1000 years ago. That's all there is to it. Proof being: that's what he said, The Almighty being active in these flashbacks, and Zeidritz, Hubert, and Algola being alive when Yamamoto showed that he killed them 1000 years ago in the first war. Why must you continue? We know what we're talking about and this isn't getting changed~ SilverRain (talk) 16:15, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

Im not going to go over this anymore. Baseless opinion based speculation doent trump facts. We can talk forever about "what this could mean and what that could mean" but thats not an argument. Facts from the series are. He could have the powers of superman doesnt mean it goes in the articles. Possibilities arent fact, they are just possibilities. Also as for his looks he has been the same adult age in appearance since the start of the arc im not sure what your talking about, it doesnt and hasnt fluctuated at all. As for your points Volstandig is a recent creation who said that the original Sternritter had it at the 1st war. Who said As Nodt was 1000 yrs old or Quilge nobody. We are talking specifically about Bazz-B and Haschwalth. You have no proof besides your opinion which erronously believes his age has fluctuated. This is over, this isnt gonna be another thing where you choose to disregard content for your own opinion.--

Zeidritz reaction is more of an indication of there being a massive defeat in the Quincys past than just the sheer audacity of Yhwachs plan, the evolution of the Lehtz Sthil into the Vollstanding, SR Js comments on the evolution of the Lehtz Sthil being apposed by Uryuus grandfather, the lack of knowledge of the Vollstanding for the Shinigami, the fact that we have seen Yhwach active during the 999 years and 9 days, Yhwachs appearance fluctuating in the present day as is seen by his face and facial hair on the chapters 485 and 607, the fact that the soldat in 632 announces that Yhwach sees the Shinigami as a threat to the Licht Reich shows that must be post 1st Quincy war at least with Bazzs statement of Yhwachs age implying 2nd Quincy war, the buildings and their apparel not being of 11th century design, the fact that it never states this flash back is of a 1000 years ago and SR Fs recruitment all point to it being at most 200+ years ago not 1000. And this current listing of their age is a violation of the speculation policy since there are NO STATED FACTS TO SUPPORT the view of this flash back being 1000 years ago as of chapter 632.

TraumatizerAUS (talk) 16:59, July 1, 2015 (UTC)TraumatizerAUS

No facts, eh? Then allow me to list a few.
 * 1) Characters are using horses for transport and bows for hunting. We had guns 200 years ago, and at the very least horse-drawn carriages, if not primitive automobiles.
 * 2) Aside from the anachronistic uniforms of the Wandenreich officers (which could be attributed to Yhwach being able to see the future, but I've no intention of going into your territory), the people living in the village which we saw in 632 are wearing very simple clothing which DOES look like it's from the 11th century, not the 19th.
 * 3) When fighting Royd (who was masquerading as Yhwach at the time), Yamamoto said "It's been 1000 years". This means he has most certainly not seen Yhwach since their first clash 1000 years ago, and since Yhwach's about to invade Soul Society, well...
 * 4) Continuing from the above, Zeidritz, Hubert, and Algora are all alive in the flashback. Based on Yama's explanation of his Bankai's skeleton ability, we know for a fact that he is the one who killed these guys, and since he only fought Yhwach's forces 1000 years ago...
 * 5) Yhwach had The Almighty active. He could not have had this active because..."Haschwalth"

- His Majesty has always fought with his 'eyes' shut. This is not because he thinks lightly of his enemies. After the King of the Quincy was sealed away, it took 900 years for his heart to begin beating once more, 90 years for him to regain awareness, and 9 years for him to regain his power. If His Majesty were to open his eyes before those final 9 years had fully elapsed, he may have been unable to fully control his power of 'A' and accidentally stolen all of the strength from his loyal Sternritter. This is why he kept them closed. This definitively prevents this flashback from taking place 200 years ago because Yhwach didn't have this power active during that time. Haschwalth says it RIGHT THERE.

If, somehow, this is still not enough for you, I don't know what to say. We're still not changing their ages from 1000+ to anything else because you haven't provided any solid evidence to prove your point.--Xilinoc (talk) 18:45, July 1, 2015 (UTC)

1- This may take place in the Quincys shadow world in which place technology would most likely be lagging as it is in most regards with the Soul Society.

-2 There clothing is at least 18th century since that is when the Lederhosen was first created in the late 1700's which we see young Jugram wearing and in the 11th century peasants didn't wear pants and the architecture of Bazzs family estate/castle was at least 15-16th century.

-3 Just because it was 1000 years since Yamamoto saw Yhwach doesn't mean this flash back is of a 1000 years ago since he invaded soul society recently which means everything could be leading up to the current invasion.

-4 Ziedritz and the others could of been slain in the initial assault by Yamamoto

-5 If Yhwach possed the All Mighty 1000 years ago then he would of defeated Yamamoto in the same way he defeated Ichibei or forseen how to steal Bankais and done so as did in the present. Jugram also states that Yhwach used to give people their desires via touching him but as time wen by he found a better method in which they drank his blood. Now if he gave himself the All Mighty 1000 years ago he would of won like I stated however if he gave himself the All Mighty 9 years ago just before he devoured he mixed blood Quincy that would still fit in with the Jugram quote you provided and fit in with the fight against Ichibei in which we saw Yhwach give himself abilities such as the voice.

Again I am not saying it isn't possible this is 1000 years ago but as of chapter 632 it hasn't stated this is 1000 years ago it is still just pure speculation and as I have stated before if you are going to keep Jugrams and Bazzs ages as they are based on the current info then you should at least change the evolutionary states of Starkk, Barragan, Ulquiorra, Nnoitra and Grimmjow to Vasto Lorde since it states most of the Espada were Vasto Lorde in both the original Japanese version of Data book 2 as well as the Viz translation since we have official material stating as such despite not stating exactly which ones were if you are OK with listing ages that are exactly specified.

TraumatizerAUS (talk) 00:06, July 2, 2015 (UTC)TraumatizerAUS


 * "1- This may take place in the Quincys shadow world in which place technology would most likely be lagging as it is in most regards with the Soul Society."

Yes it very well may take place in the Quincys shadow world so this immediately nullifies your next argument of applying Real World History and Culture to a fictional story.


 * "2 There clothing is at least 18th century since that is when the Lederhosen was first created in the late 1700's which we see young Jugram wearing and in the 11th century peasants didn't wear pants and the architecture of Bazzs family estate/castle was at least 15-16th century."

The Shinigami walk around in clothes and environment that is akin to Feudal Era Japan so again this logic of clothes in the real world versus what the fictional characters in this fictional world are wearing. Kubo has not in the past shown a correct passage of time in reference to real world history and Kubo/Bleach fictional history.


 * "-3 Just because it was 1000 years since Yamamoto saw Yhwach doesn't mean this flash back is of a 1000 years ago since he invaded soul society recently which means everything could be leading up to the current invasion."

In this flashback, Yhwach is stated, in the story, to be 200 years old. we know he was defeated by Yamamoto over 1000 years ago. So it is not, or there is nothing in the story to suggest that it is a lead up to the second invasion and logic (as opposed to What ifs) leaves that its the build up to the first invasion when Yhwach was defeated but not killed because we know he is over 1000 years old and in this flashback he is only over 200 years old. If Kubo changes it later, fine but until that happens "what ifs" do not go into our articles, stated manga facts on the other hand do.


 * "4 Ziedritz and the others could of been slain in the initial assault by Yamamoto"

If you have proof of this please provide it but since you have said "could have been" then you are speculating which doesn't belong in our articles.


 * "-5 If Yhwach possed the All Mighty 1000 years ago then he would of defeated Yamamoto in the same way he defeated Ichibei or forseen how to steal Bankais and done so as did in the present. Jugram also states that Yhwach used to give people their desires via touching him but as time wen by he found a better method in which they drank his blood. Now if he gave himself the All Mighty 1000 years ago he would of won like I stated however if he gave himself the All Mighty 9 years ago just before he devoured he mixed blood Quincy that would still fit in with the Jugram quote you provided and fit in with the fight against Ichibei in which we saw Yhwach give himself abilities such as the voice."

How do you even come to this conclusion without proof? You don't know how strong Yhwach's abilities were back then. It hasn't been shown so you can't say this is a fact without proof and again does not go into our articles.


 * "Again I am not saying it isn't possible this is 1000 years ago but as of chapter 632 it hasn't stated this is 1000 years ago it is still just pure speculation"

No it is not speculation, at least not from a "what if" scenerio (like your speculation). Jugram's age has bee listed from a conclusion this team and members came to based on logical abductive and inductive reasoning. Sure it has not been outright stated but until he states hes retconned it then the conclusions are sound.


 * "evolutionary states of Starkk, Barragan, Ulquiorra, Nnoitra and Grimmjow to Vasto Lorde since it states most of the Espada were Vasto Lorde"

It wasn't stated who was a Vasto Lorde, this has nothing to do with the currently discussion. An age is a numerical value that presents a range that we can present. Our articles contain the information that is stated in the manga and databooks about the specific characters. "Most" can mean 6, 7, 8 or 9 so its not helpful in the slightest in listing characters. We don't know who was what.

I am closing this discussion, its going in circles and "what ifs" and "could haves" do not belong here.

Powers and Abilities Section
First and foremost, I like the new setup of this section. Two things I noticed however: Heilig Pfeil and Heilig Bogen are mispelled and unbolded in the Power Sharing section, and that Reishi is not capitalized.

Oh and, that given what we know about Haschwalth's abilities, how do we know that the sword he uses currently is a Reishi sword? In all of its appearances, he draws it from a sheath, rather than summon it. That's just what I noticed~ SilverRain (talk) 18:42, July 2, 2015 (UTC)

Until it's explicitly stated otherwise, there's not enough evidence to suggest the sword Haschwalth uses isn't a Reishi sword. Also take into account that Reishi and Kishi do not mix well. So it would still be a Reishi sword either way, unless new information emerges stating that it isn't.--Kman111 (talk) 13:34, July 8, 2015 (UTC)

Kishi? What does the author of Naruto have to do with this?--Xilinoc (talk) 19:24, July 8, 2015 (UTC)


 * Not that Kishi, the other Kishi. The spirit energy in the human world. That Kishi.Poweltav (talk) 20:40, July 8, 2015 (UTC)

Hirenkyaku
I think that we should add Hirenkyaku to Haschwalth's page. As he was about to attack Bazz-B, who just released Burning Full Fingers, Haschwalth suddenly appeared behind him, slashing him from the shoulder to hip, without h noticing. Besides, Haschwalth can already manipulate and absorb reishi without anyone noticing anyway, as an adult that is.Poweltav (talk) 16:59, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

Also in Chapter 626, there's a panel where Haschwalth stood mid-air, while the Schutzstaffel latched onto pieces of flooring, so that they wouldn't fall off the palace. Although you can't see his feet, it's pretty telling that he stood mid-air, as he was standing behind Nakk Le Vaar when that part of the building was destroyed by Yhwach's reiatsu.--Kman111 (talk) 05:27, July 10, 2015 (UTC)

Hirenkyaku
Someone should add Jugo as a Hirenkyaku expert, as he was able quick enough to appear behind and cut Bazz-B in 634.CoolJazzman (talk) 07:35, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Bleach Chapter 630
Did I hear right?

Didn't Bazz-B said that Jugram and Yhwach's spiritual powers switch whenever Night comes and Yhwach sleeps? Superlogan7437 (talk) 23:17, July 12, 2015 (UTC)


 * BazzB: Once night falls and His Majesty falls asleep... // Your power will switch places with His Majesty’s. // I’m going... / ...to kill His Majesty’s power. // Together with you... // ...you damn traitor.


 * Right now, we don't know whether he means Yhwach's spiritual power or his special abilities, e.g. Auswählen.--Xilinoc (talk) 00:03, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

I believe he means his special abilites. Check Chapter 635 illustrations, Jugram has The Almighty ability.. Superlogan7437 (talk) 02:07, July 16, 2015 (UTC)