Forum:Sōsuke Aizen (Volume 2)

This thread is a replacement for Forum:Sōsuke Aizen (Thread Closed), which was closed due to its significant length. Feel free to browse the old thread, but do not post in it. You can continue any of the discussions here instead, by adding the heading that the discussion was under in the old thread. -- Yyp (Talk) 17:22, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

How can Aizen be defeated
-- Can Ichigo beat Aizen? No. Not without the help of the Vizards and Shinigami. The most interesting part of the combat won't be the fight against Aizen but what the other characters say, feel, and do. Together they will triumph. Thats not really in question IMO.

Which is a shame because Aizen remains supremely uninteresting in himself. He remains a cardboard cut-out of a villain who says and does things because thats what Big Bads do. We know more about his henchmen then we do of Aizen the leader. When Aizen speaks its only to taunt and verbally skewer his opponents. He speaks of hate and power...but nothing is ever really revealed about the man himself. No flashbacks to reveal why Aizen is such a mench. Aizen is just a shadow on the wall. A very poor choice of ultimate villain by the author of the series.

Heh...Gin would be doing us a favor by putting his blade through Aizen's head and taking up the mantle of Big Bad himself. At least Gin is interesting and shows some sigh of humanity under that mocking grin. Great Cthulhu 21:29, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

I actually think it's a good idea by the writers to not give away too much about Aizen. The characters and readers have the same sense that they really don't know anything about Aizen except that he seems to know everything before hand and is really strong, making his weakness hard to detect. If we knew everything his weaknesses would be obvious. I agree though, personally I'm pretty tired of his arrogance and would like Gin to play more of a role. In the end I'm guessing we'll get a few pieces to Aizen's background, probably from the Captain Commander or Urahara as the story progresses. Ihaveaname 20:51, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

No wonder, Yamamoto didn't stop Aizen in TBTP before he left to Hueco Mundo, I don't believe that Kubo would make Genryusai fight Aizen nor Gin. Anyway they won't be able to kill Aizen in a frontal but rather with a tricky move, say, like a reverse shadow for example...Ace of Spade 11:13, January 16, 2010 (UTC)

I would have been really disappointed if Ichigo, solo, had beaten Aizen through pure strength alone. He's been doing too much of that lately, it just isn't a good plot. Too predictable. Fortunately, the intervention of the Shinigami and Vizards looks as though we might get to see some more Shikais and Bankais - I really hope we get to see Shunsui and Jushiro's Bankais particularly, if Jushiro isn't dead. I still think a better way to end this would be for one of Aizen's subordinates to defeat him though, I'd been hoping for Tosen to do it.

What I think will probably happen, though, is all the Shinigami and Vizards are going to weaken Aizen and then Ichigo will Hollowfy and deal the finishing blow. We haven't seen much of Gin lately though, I suspect he'll probably put in an appearance once everybody seems to have forgotten about him. Snappydog 19:04, January 16, 2010 (UTC)

I think Aizen's character revolves around his ability to see the bigger picture. Throughtout the series you see how gaining power leads to being isolated and its safe to assume Aizen had reached that cap way b4 he was introduced in the series. So lets go back to Aizen seeing the bigger picture, think about it in his pov and how his only purpose as a soul reaper is to defeat hollow, just one constant rotation going around in circles. The only answer he was able to come up with was to break free from that circle and become a God and the whole hollowfication thing. His character seems like a very very lonley one and I'm sure his only real tie/relationship is with his Zanpakuto which I beleive is the reason he's so powerful.

Personally I don't think Ichigo can touch Aizen when it comes to strength and exp. The one thing Ichigo has over Aizen is his unconditinal attitude in protecting people to where those ties become his main source of strength. I can imagine someone jumping in to save Ichigo and dies, Ichigo does something crazy to where his resolve becomes his power which leads to Aizen getting caught offguard because he saw how powerful Ichigo became in such a short time keeping his ties close to him, and then Aizen thanking Ichigo as he delievers the final blow and aplogizeing to his old vice captain as he takes his last breath.

This may be confusing at first to most readers but if you try to think of Aizen's character and how he talks to people it'll all make sense. Very hard to find specfic examples to blur out my point but since its a differnt approach overall I can't expect people to understand.

"I can imagine someone jumping in to save Ichigo and dies, Ichigo does something crazy to where his resolve becomes his power which leads to Aizen getting caught offguard..." I actually kind of like this idea. Especially since Aizen went out of his way in the last chapter to mention how no one that went with Ichigo to Hueco Mundo died, so he doesn't have that to fight for. I could see Gin going overboard and taking someone out sending Ichigo over the edge. But for now I like that it's going to be everyone else vs. Aizen.Ihaveaname 17:07, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

-- "Especially since Aizen went out of his way in the last chapter to mention how no one that went with Ichigo to Hueco Mundo died, so he doesn't have that to fight for." And now you just revealed one more possible evidence to Aizen's super-genius: That he might have already deduced that Ichigo's resolve is his true unique source of power by the time of the Soul Society's closing act, and cleverly set things up so that not one of Ichigo's comrades had any real chance to die during their invasion of Las Noches... unless Soul Society actually goes agianst better judgement and abandons them to their doom, which in turn allows Aizen to put the blame squarely on their shoulders and divert Ichigo's rage from him and towards the "true" guilty party. Goddamn it, how can Aizen be so... so... Canon Marty Stu-ish? And yet he's one of my favourite archvillains, next to Sephiroth (FF7) and Vergil (DMC). MarqFJA 22:45, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Aizen's power is making illusions, so was Muramasa's. Zangetsu allowed Ichigo to counter it by fighting through him and making him keep his eyes cloesd. This is a possible way to beat Aizen, and it being in the anime gives it some credibility, at least. But I'm sure if this was what Tite was planning, he's gonna change it now since the anime already did it.Grimmjow2 21:37, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

Aizen is unstoppable, he just parried Hitsugaya's Bankai attack, stop the sword of Komamura's Bankai with bare hand, holding Rose's shikai with his hand and then slash him, use shunpo to evade Ichigo's powered up Getsuga Tensho.Frostymoon 8:09, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

The guy is just too strong to be even imagined..... its unreal. Granted that the other captains have sustained injuries and are not in 100% shape... but still to actually catch anothers zanpaktou bare handed.... he definitely beats even kenpachi for pure spiritual energy.. tats for sure.. As far as for Aizen being defeated goes... i believe that Orihime will play an important hand in it.... Might not come true... but still a gut feeling... :) Kishen1912 12:17, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

That's turning nonsensical in some ways. Aizen stronger than imaginable? similar as when captains talked about Genryuusai, isn't it? Plus if he is as strong as Gin said, why he has to care about the king's key? what is the purpose of the espadas conception? why he cut Harribel down by saying that all the espadas together couldn't match his own power, it took him time to realise that, if he is so smart he should have been realised it since the beginning, no? So strong that he had to use kyoka suigetsu from the beginning, and now he will rely on raw strength, that is nonsense. There are fluctuations in the scenarii from clever to stupid and vise versa. So strong that he is waiting the shinigamis to come to him, I don't get it. He was so impatient to finish them a while ago by cutting Harribel down in the reason that she were to slow, and now he is waiting!? Bleach is getting cheaper recently, bigger panels, slow, long chat, less actions, revails few or less, what else...Ace of Spade 23:06, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

I think that Aizen is just choosing his battles wisely. If you think about he has yet to attack certain captians head on as he did with Rose and Koma. All he did was dodge Toshiro and He actually got hit by Shinji. He also dodged Shunsui as well. I beleive he knows which captains that he is strongern than and that is why he needed the Espada for assistance. That is also why i beleive he gave Tosen a mask. Tealang99 17:10, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

I do agree with you that Aizen needed comrades because he knew he couldn't beat all vizards and shinigami by himself alone.Aizen may be at limit of power of shinigami and let's say he is 100% at swordsmanship,kido.hakuda and hoho.He can beat anyone one-on-one presumably.There are few shinigami who are at 90-100% swordsmanship though not at others.Also Yoruichi and Soifon seem (if not faster) as fast as him .Moreover Tessai and Hachi are kido masters.So as long as there are shinigami and vizards who are equal to aizen by their own advantages there is no way aizen can beat all of them without his zampakuto's ability,espada and 2 fellow captains.

You're all forgetting something important, Aizen has and always will be into complicated long, not-seen-untill-explained plots. If you take every action of Aizen alone, they have no meaning, but join them.. and it does BOEM. It's like a chemical reaction: an ingredient with another.. nothing special, add another and it explodes. As for Aizen's power, I doubt that he's already at his limit in the shinigami-form since he failed to use the full power of the lvl 90+ kidou spell on Captain Komamura as he ascended to Las Noches. As for intellect, Aizen is definitely unmatched.. nobody else was as smart or capable to actively use kidou in combat as he does, by defending his blind spots where not even Shunsui can get through. And to "Ace of Spade" he doesn't want to make the King's Key for more power, he wants to create it to enter the Royal Dimension to woop some King's ass there and not be a king.. but a God. Shinza 21:09 February 2, 2010 (UTC)

I disagree becaus Momo has shown herself very capale of using kido in battle just well as Aizen though the kido is not as stronge as Aizen she still does use them very tatical. Also hestill went out and recruited atleast the top 2 espada. There must be meaning to that. If he did not need them he wouldnt have asked them to join. I just think he under estimated the Gotie 13 or over estimated his Espada. Aizen have yet to step up to some of the top captains of the Gotei 13. He was smart enough to trap three of top captains in HC but Captain Unohana made it back. So He still has to deal with her, Shunsui, Yama before we see him think about the Spirit King. Plus I dont disreguard Shinji as well becuase he actually laid his sword on Aizen which no other person in Gotie 13 have ever done. Thats a feat in its self. Tealang99 21:19, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * i have a theory regarding Aizen recruiting the espada... it's because he still doesn't know the abilities of the other captains. he used the espada so he can see the captains's abilities (shikai, bankai, other skills, etc) and assess how to defeat them. just my two cents... WinterFox 01:58, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed I forgot about Momo, but that's because of her low power, so actually useless. However Aizen can use them to block strong captains as seen, anyway about him overestimating his espada is probly true, but you know how he likes to toy arround and... he's in no rush. And why does everyone expect so much from Unohana, just because she's one of the oldest captains arround and how others react when she gets upset? Anyway I think that's being overconfident, Aizen clearly surpasses everyone who's battle-active in every way. The latest chapter says it all, it's not Kyouka Suigetsu that makes him feared, it's simply his abilities that surpass everyone at every level. And keep in count, Aizen hasn't even released his zanpaktou nor did he fight serious yet, let alone use hypnosis. This next chapter should be interesting.(hoping it's not gonna jump back to Hueco Mundo). ShinzaWai 20:24, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

This is too good to be true.... Is the last page of chapter 391 reality or is it yet another illusion by the kyoka suigetsu...?? ur comments guys ?? Kishen1912 16:04, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of it being an illusion or not, the battle is not over, imo. Btw, we have a forum dedicated to the discussion of each chapter and its contents in Forum:Manga talks. -- Yyp (Talk) 16:16, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, if Aizen did get taken out like that, im gonna be real disapointed with the whole fight. I mean, he hasnt even shown bankai yet!!!!! On the plus side, Shunsui got a piece of him!(hopefully) But in all honesty, it was either an illusion or that crazy flash step technique that byakuya and youroichi keep using. Captain of squad 0

The last chapter was amazing! Of course the battle isn't over yet, but it was kind of funny how Aizen mentioned commanding the arrancar (except for Wonderweiss, there are none alive on the battlefield) and then getting teamed-up-upon. Seriously, how can this genius not have seen this coming, since he's obviously so outnumbered? Well, actually, Aizen is probably playing them all, but I just don't see him winning. Or maybe he's just surprised the captains are capable of working together sometimes. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) contribs) 23:53, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's not over. Aizen seriously cannot go like that. Then Bleach wouldn't make logical sense (though I really wish he would die, somehow, him dying now won't satisfy me). the next chapter he's probably going to be like "it was all an illusion" or "something like this is only a scratch" or something like that. Afterall, he's supposedly so much more powerful than all of them. Perhaps he was wounded though. I do think that everyone woriking together WILL in the end be what leads to his demise. but not right now. Still, I'm glad that everyone was working togehter like that. It was amazing to see what they could do, especially how Kyouraku attacked Aizen. I wondering if there wouldn't be some twist, and Aizen severely wounds everyone, and then Ichigo snaps and steps into battle at last, or Unohana. I wonder if Unohana did go up against Aizen, what would happen. Anyways, I think we're all waiting to see what will happen. KnowledgeandImagination 01:56, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

After reading the latest chapter, I thought to myself the guys at bleach.wikia would be going cuckoo-bananas over it. This isn't exactly cuckoo-bananas...

I do not think it is an illusion. For us, the readers, Ichigo is on Fake Karakura Town for one reason: to assure us what is happening is not an illusion, as he has not seen Aizen's shikai. Seeing his normal zanpakuto does not place under Aizen's complete hypnosis. So, as I see it, this chapter is the go-head for Aizen to team up with Gin or use his hollow powers, or some amazing plot twist. Laguna 16:59, February 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not that we aren't going "cuckoo-bananas", it's just that the discussion over it is spread across several blog posts and a couple of forum topics. If everything was combined into one thing, it would be huge already. I don't really want to speculate on what might happen next week to allow him to keep fighting (goodness only knows what Kubo will come up with - could be something predictable or something totally out there), so I'll stick to commenting on what he was like in this chapter. That is an awful lot of "WTF expressions" on Aizen's face this week, and they're more serious than the momentary displeasure against Hirako when he first released Sakanade. It's refreshing to see. He effortlessly beat Love & Lisa, but the combination of multiple captains fighting together/supporting each other was the best (most sensible) way to take him down (not that he is defeated yet, that is). But if he survives this without some consequences, then it leaves me wondering just what it will take to finally beat him. -- Yyp (Talk) 17:23, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

I Have to say I enjoyed seeing Aizen get all beat up like that, but one thing has bugged me and that is the proper revealing of suigetsu's influence. I don't think he is using it, but Aizen used the effect infront of ichigo when komamura came. in all the other chapters they just say he can't see his shikai, not he can't see his ritual. I don't think he "saw it" but it bugs me. something about that incident and it could be me, but anyone else think aizen's shikai may have taken effect back in seretei.

But on another note I think Aizen will pull something to help him, possibly even the hogyoku to assit him in healing, or going hollow. Perhaps even his Bankai has some type of healing properties who knows, but I think this battle is coming to a close soon, so I dont know if he has too many tricks left up his sleeve. if he survives it will be a full retreat, and I don't know if it will be back to las noches, there is always hell he can go to to perhaps form up some type of army, but we dont know much about that place... yet Shillagan 18:07, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

I dont know if this is any real proof, but did anyone notice that everytime Aizen used an illusion, the "fake" had a grin on his face, and didnt look as distressed as Aizen did in this chapter? I am not entirely sure what this means, but It may mean that this is in fact the real Aizen, and he may need to bust out something crazy in order to just stay alive!... Any thoughts?? --Captain of squad 0--

Aizen is not dead. You do not kill off the main antagonist of the series before they can go full power (bankai). I don't know what is going to happen in the next chapter. I don't think it will be an illusion beacause Ichigo is there. Maybe Gin will Gin will get involed. Flaminghorse February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Yes he is not dead but cornered.I think he now understands that he wouldn't be strong enough against powerfull captains' conbination.So he'll do something we don't know.Also Gin will be involved of course if not he will piss me offIt will be strange if his boss dies before his eyes and he does nothing but some comments.--Shaggi 12:11, February 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, Gin not doing anything but just watching and grinning like a Cheshire Cat would fit his personality perfectly! ^.^ Seriously thought, it's too early for Aizen to die. But it will be interesting to see how he gets out of this and how he manages to take out the remaining fighters. Tinni   (Talk)  12:53, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you are right.I can't believe in my eyes if Gin shouts "Oh no Aizen-sama! don't die I will protect you no mather what ...".It will be ridiculous if Gin seves him from death though it might be.Shaggi 14:24, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you are right.I can't believe in my eyes if Gin shouts "Oh no Aizen sama don't die I will protect you no matter what blah blah...".It would be ridiculous if Gin saves him from death.--Shaggi 14:15, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Oh I've written it twice SORRY.

Ichimaru seems like Aizen's only friend. I wouldn't be surprised if Ichimaru rescued him. I doubt Aizen will die soon; he hasn't released either his bankai or his resurrection, the latter of which would heal him. (And can he use both?) PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) contribs) 14:45, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Possible flaw in Kyouka Suigetsu's "Complete Hypnosis"?
One thing that's been making me suspicious for a while is this: if his "Complete Hypnosis" is so unbreakable, why didn't he just off Unohana and Isane in Central 46 and be done with it? Even if official battle data stats aren't everything, he managed to easily take down Hitsugaya at 560 vs. 500, and Gin had been evenly matched against the other white-haired Captain - and nearly took his head off at one point - in their one and only confrontation (no Bankai use, though), despite a 20 point disadvantage. Unohana is only 540 vs. Aizen's 560, and the only actual advantage that she has on him is 10 points in Physical Endurance, while lagging behind him in both Defense (10 points) and Mobility (20 points); factor in his "Complete Hypnosis", and the ultimate winner should've been easily clear.

In light of the aforementioned facts, I suspect that there's a fundamental yet hard-to-detect flaw in Kyouka Suigetsu's signature, nearly-broken ability... one that Aizen knows that not only someone with Unohana's experience can discover almost immediately if given the chance, but could also be utilized by anyone once they are informed of it, explaining why he opted to escape rather than risk the miniscule possibility that she might survive his initial attack and uncover his shikai's weakness. MarqFJA 22:45, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that there must be some unknown flaw in it or shinji wouldn't have been able to detect the illusion, and while admittedly that was over a century ago it still presents a valid point. another point of interest is that what if aizen doesnt even have a bankai!? I mean if he can control all 5 senses who is to say he didn't just make an illusion to fake his bankai...just a thought.

Yeah that makes little sense.But his master swordsmanship is more than enough to reach Bankai.Shaggi--Shaggi 12:01, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

I would like to take this oppertunity to give a general reminder that we do have rules against crack theory. Saying Aizen doesn't have bankai falls under the category of "crack theory". In fact, saying any Shinigami captain past or present not named Zaraki Kenpachi not having bankai falls under the category of crack as it goes against facts repeatedly stated in the manga. So seriously, stop is already. Also, remember to sign your posts using the ~. Tinni  (Talk)  12:53, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

maybe by overpowering aizen's reiatsu (covering yourself with reiatsu much stronger than aizen's) will not trigger kyoka suigetsu's ability. much like what aizen did with soifon and suzumebachi's "death in 2 steps". i mean, it seems like the combats has more often been (if not always) a battle of reiatsu. but, on the other hand, aizen doesn't seem to run out of reiatsu (lol), and as far as the manga states, the only person who may have enough reiatsu for that is .. icihigo?!? just my thoughts.. WinterFox 02:09, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that trying to see the flaw will work, as he could fake it, or aizen could just kill whoever found it before they could tell anyone. Instead, since Ichigo is supposed to be the only one to not be affected by the hypnosis any one that has a bankai that affects an area, and can trap people, like byakuya, should form a sphere or box around ichigo, effectively trapping aizen with him, and then somehow seclude ichigo from the trap, making aizen all alone in his box, until the controller decides to crush him. Cutting off all ways for aizen to evade attack will probably be the best way to kill him, until TK says otherwise.Lazychubb 06:09, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

Lazychubb.. the problem is that Byakuya is not in FKT thus that is impossible for now. Also Sosuke whould kill Byakuya before he could trap him... so far it seems that Kyoka Suigetsu is invincible. Captain Brooks 16:30, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

Demise
So Aizen is dead, right?

There is no proof of that. He just appeared to be stabbed through the chest. Tinni  (Talk)  02:04, February 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * LOL... what a casual way of saying that "He just appeared to be stabbed through the chest"... it sounded as if being stabbed in chest is something that commonly happens in Bleach. XD WinterFox 05:41, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

well think about this fact, i dont remember where i saw it, probably here, the maker of the bleach manga and anime said he had not planned the end of the series yet, so honestly the series will probably end when Aizen is killed so I highly doubt they're gonna kill him off that easily that quick, besides isn't Ichigo the only one who should be able to considering hes the only one who hasnt seen is Shikai IchigoFan24 05:53, February 6, 2010 (UTC)IchigoFan24IchigoFan24 05:53, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

It can not be determined what Kubo will do with Aizen in the story he can kill him next chapter or somewhere near the end or at the end. Who knows in either case we do not have a determination where the story is at on that. There are a number of factors for or against this idea. We just have to wait and see. Just for reference the idea of using ichigo was the Gotei 13's plan. It was proven in the previous chapter that it really didn't matter whether Ichigo saw Aizen's shikai release or not. So thats not a viable reason, but stands to reason that if he is to be killed it would have to be by another person regardless of Ichigo being the main protagonist as he doesn't possess the resole to kill his opponents. Salubri (Talk)  06:40, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Of course Aizen isn't dead. After all this build up, nearly hundreds of chapters showing what a beastly god he is, Aizen is gonna died by from a stab to the back? Fat chance, That would be the most anticimatic ending EVER. The captains double teaming Aizen is just the scinario Kubo needed to give Aizen a reason to get serious. I'm guessing either he gonna bringing out a Bankai or Hollow mask.--Black Artist 19:56, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

I think it's too early to see either his bankai or hollowification.Just "kudakero kyoka suigetsu" is enough for now.Shaggi 08:28, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

Five bucks says Aizen switched himself out with another random character. Just to piss Hitsugaya off, I bet it was either momo or his leutenant. --Caotain of squad 0--