Talk:Ichigo Kurosaki

Species
Since Ichigo lost his Shinigami powers, why is he still classified as a "Human/Vizard" and not just "Human"?--私はあくまで執事ですから - "I'm one hell of a butler." ("Heaven?") 02:56, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Ichigo said he is losing his powers, not that he has lost them. We wait until we have confirmation that he has lost his powers--God (Pray)  02:58, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

alright--私はあくまで執事ですから - "I'm one hell of a butler." ("Heaven?") '02:59, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Well even if ichigo looses his soul reaper powers, he still has his hollow powers. {rigoberto 60} 02:59, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

That is pure speculation. And not very likely either, since Tensa Zangetsu's fused form represented Ichigo's spiritual power as a whole. Mohrpheus (talk) 15:09, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

There is no evidence that Ichigo will retain his hollow powers. Both Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo said farewell to Ichigo in their merged form. Therefore, stop it with the "he's going to retain his hollow powers" business. Tinni  (Talk)  15:12, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou
Just a request, but could the transformation currently dubbed as "The Getsuga" be moved under the Final Getsuga Tenshou section? The abilities section is supposed to be more about effects the ability itself, rather than how it was obtained. That information is already contained in the plot section anyway, there really isn't a need to be redundant. Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou is the transformation, with Ichigo describing it as becoming Getsuga itself. Mohrpheus (talk) 01:16, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Since it is a large edit, I will post it here first. Would anybody be opposed to the below replacing the current Final Getsuga Tenshou section? I reorganized it since the transformation is the Final Getsuga Tenshou, with Ichigo just describing its effect as "becoming the Getsuga." It also helps make the section a little more compact, without removing any information or references (a new reference is actually included here):


 * By using this technique, Ichigo becomes the Getsuga itself. It is referred to as the “Final” Getsuga Tenshou because if Ichigo uses it, he loses all of his Shinigami powers. For the duration of the ability, Ichigo’s hair turns black, and becomes waist-length. Black bandages form around his body, tightly wrapped around his torso, right arm, and face, ending just beneath his eyes. The remains of a tattered black cloak cover his lower body. In this form, Ichigo’s body constantly emits black reiatsu, most of which is focused around his right arm. Being in this form allows Ichigo to use Mugetsu; once it is used, the transformation dissipates, and his Shinigami powers begin to fade away.
 * Ichigo seemingly generates a blade of black energy out of thin air, and grabs it. Doing so brings forth a massive veil of black spiritual energy that covers the surrounding area and darkens the sky, damaging anything caught within the darkness. The energy then recedes, dissipating into the sky.

Mohrpheus (talk) 16:06, September 28, 2010 (UTC)

Enhanced Bankai Duration
King Zeal brought up a good point on the forums. He pointed out that there is no credible source that Tensa Zangetsu's compression ability is the reason that Ichigo to use it for so long. Looking back over his fight with Byakuya, the only thing that he mentions the compression affecting is Ichigo's speed. This ability is never elaborated on again, so I can't think of any other possible sources. Zeal also pointed out that the entire Hueco Mundo arc is used as a reference, even though it never gives an explanation as to why Ichigo's Bankai can last so long; the "expelling energy" thing is more or less a fan theory. The original forum post can be found here. Mohrpheus (talk) 11:56, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Yo Mohrp how bout my blog then [|here]. Anyway it is nice to finally had someone or a few users here to finally want to bring this up seriously.Soulreaper1234 (talk) 14:33, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

A better point would be to prove it not to be true. Plenty of information on the site is gained by observation and common sense and is supported by references. Instead of bringing stuff to a talk page as uses I would think it made sense for someone to look it up themselves. Instead we have a user that should know better once again neither defending the information or the site. We have another user once again bringing up his ridiculous blog topic which very content proves he knows little to nothing about the source material. Either way doesn't all matter seeing as this is another pointless argument I would suggest seeing as this is an issue what i previously suggested should now take place. Anyone concered can blame the above two for most of deletion of ichigo's page content. --Salubri (Talk)  15:42, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with Salubri. What else could it be, yes I do not think it was directly stated that that is the reason but I think it was pretty heavily implied to the point where it is safe to list it even with our own speculation policy. Ichigo's bankai compresses his spiritual energy, what else could this mean other than he uses up less energy allowing him to use his bankai for longer--God (Pray)  16:09, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

I understand why you have deleted alot of the stuff Salubri, to proove a point about infered knowledge and stated knowledge. However can you please return it to how it was, im on agreement with God here and i think the vast majority probably are too. GinIchimaru (talk)

What do you mean, Salubri deleting those contents with this thing Enhanced Bankai Duration that probably does not even have proper reference and back up, we just cannot assume something like few hundred episodes ago with the Byakuya's explanation as backing the theory of why Ichigo can stay that long with Bankai form. Even though he sounded angry with us - on my part I can only apologize.Soulreaper1234 (talk) 16:29, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

@Soulreaper1234 what Salubri has done is taken your idea of it can only count if its explicitly said and expanded it over the whole power and abilities article. If you see what he changed it was mainly attributes that had been expanded on through common sense and logical inference. Basically you cant have one rule for one section of the powers and abilities (bankai duration) and then have a different rule for the rest. So basically it's either we accept the bankai duration thing or we take out all the other info that isnt explicitly stated. GinIchimaru (talk) 16:36, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Yes what he done here is the most sensible thing, taking a stance, this Bleach wiki are not about assuming things through some observation it is all about cold hard facts & figures all about the info from manga, art books, anime, game etc. Again I am so sorry for this happening mates.Soulreaper1234 (talk) 17:05, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

"Ichigo has over twice the spiritual power of the standard Shinigami captain, allowing him to maintain his Bankai for a longer period of time than most." That's another "likely" reason as to why he can use his Bankai for so long. The point is, anybody can come up with a logical explanation that sounds correct, but that does not necessarily make it so. Telling me to prove something wrong rather than right is a moot point; the very same people pointing the finger at me are the ones that taught me that this wiki deals with nothing by the facts. This is the second time I have been accused me of "failing to defend the information on the site." Assuming that I only started this topic for the sake of removing content is nothing short of ignorant, not to mention insulting, considering that the page was mutilated seconds after for the sake of proving a point. If I knew that that was the response I would get, then I would never have brought it up in the first place. This issue is far too trivial to get worked up over - if the consensus is that it should say, then I agree. Mohrpheus (talk) 20:17, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Firstly there is no established bases for that, by that point no one should be able to maintain a bankai more then a minute. Secondly The point being that your one of the main users on the site and yes this is the second time the fingers been pointed at you. Because instead of doing some form of investigation or possibly taking it upon yourself to figure out right or wrong of the content, it was another jump on the band wagon type of situation. I think all the admin are about sick and tired of having to be the only one alongside certain users to be the only ones defending the content. Whatever happened to taking some incentive here as its not like you dont know the content. Your right we deal with facts but observation is also supported by references. Its never stated factually that in bankai ichigo's getsuga tensho is black and red so by that point we cant list that it is either. But then again we have observed that it is an observational fact. So unless there is a way to rectify that concept with the one your insinuating we should logically go by the next time someone brings up something without a majority of support I wouldnt be qick to back it. Otherwise all observational facts are just as liable. Whats insulting and ignorant is that every time one person has a problem your quick to jump on their side instead of dealing with the issue and supporting the content. If the content is questionable and you dont know you need a large consensus, but do it on a forum they take up to much space for a talk page.--Salubri (Talk)  20:41, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

But that's just it: there ARE no references. The only reference is the entire Hueco Mundo arc, which isn't evidence. Yes, we can observe that Ichigo's bankai is activated for a long time, and we can make plenty of assumptions as to why. Is it a bankai ability? Is this unique to Ichigo? Is it because he's a human? Because his reiatsu is so high? Because he's a Vizard? Or because of something completely arbitrary like the fact that he has orange hair? (That one was a joke, don't take it seriously.) The point is, observable "facts" are not "facts", they're speculation. We know that Ichigo has kept his bankai activated longer than anyone else, but that's it. No other characters have made mention or notice of it. No words have been said about it in any sense. Stating that it's because of XYZ reason is speculation and nothing more. King Zeal (talk) 02:48, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

Not really, in Byakuya's original explanation of Ichigo's bankai, he says it compresses all of the energy that a bankai normally expels into a smaller finely controlled form. I think its clear that this means that this is what allows him to keep his bankai going for so long. He is not emitting huge amounts of energy like most bankais. The energy is released slower and controlled much finer allowing him to stay in that state for an extended time--God (Pray)  02:57, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

Again, one does not necessarily mean the other. The object here is not for me to prove the answer is wrong (because it could very well be right), but that there isn't anything which directly states this connection. The very definition of the term "Fanon" is to use logic and observable facts to fill in unexplained gaps. Again, I'm not debating that the explanation isn't plausible. I'm saying it isn't canonically connected. King Zeal (talk) 03:18, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

The problem with only using directly stated facts is that not everything is directly stated, it is shown visually or contextually stated. Just because something was not outright stated does not mean that it is not fact when we have several things that all point to it. An example is the Visored's enhanced strength. It was never said that they had enhanced strength yet we see Love ripping a Gillian in half and Kensei taking them down with just his bare fists.Do we not say the visoreds have enhanced strength just because it was never directly stated but we know it to be true. --God (Pray)  03:26, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

But that's just it: it's NOT "contextually stated". It's pure fan speculation whether or not the two are connected. There's nothing that connects these two points of fact. We know that Ichigo's bankai compresses energy into his muscles to enhance power and speed. We also know that he has been in bankai longer than any character insofar as we know. This doesn't mean that any other shinigami can't be in bankai that long, or that Ichigo's kai specifically allows him to do that. The two are connected only by theory. The visoreds, however, are constantly stated to have increased power. Shinji himself directly says this in the anime version, Aizen states it, and Tousen states it. However, a bigger assumption is that lieutenant-class Shinigami need that power to rip Gillian in half to begin with. No one in the Karakura Town arc had a limiter, and we've seen lieutenant-class (and higher) shinigami curb stomp Gillian class Arrancar (Grimmjow's Fraccion). So again, it's fan speculation which is used to justify an observed theory. King Zeal (talk) 04:48, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

Actually we do. I think it was Byakuya who said it that because of the Bankai's size, it consumes an impressive amount of energy, therefore, the user can't keep it for long periods of time. Thus why Ichigo is the exception. Because his Bankai is compressed, and so it doesn't involve said energy consumption. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  04:57, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

If it's true, I don't know which chapter the part about bankai not being able to stay active long is stated. You may be right about that. However, this still does not invalidate the point I'm trying to make. As I said before the very term "Fanon" is defined as a reasonable and educated guess as to an indirectly explained phenomenon. Once more, I'm not saying that the theory isn't sound. It is, and it could be true for all I know--but it is NOT said in canon. I expected that the Bleach Wiki would try to keep out subtle examples of Fanon from its pages (as stated in the Policy Committee page, for all we know, Ichigo has a crush on Kenpachi), so I don't understand why this is being overlooked. Even if it may be true, there is no direct statement which I know of which confirms it. I would think that in this case, the burden of proof would be on the claimant. King Zeal (talk) 05:04, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

As pointed out, not everything is directly stated. I am currently looking for the chapter Lia is talking about as it does exists. Byakuya says Bankai's consume large amounts of energy, causing the user to only be able to stay in bankai for a limited time. He then says that Ichigo's bankai compresses all this energy, not consuming as much. Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to say that the reason Ichigo can stay in bankai for so long is because his bankai does not use that great amount of energy. It is not speculation. So what if this was not directly stated. We have the reason bankai's cannot stay activated for long periods of time and we know ichigo's does not fit that reason. It is perfectly legitimate of us to say that the compression of energy allows him to stay in bankai for so long.--God (Pray)  05:11, September 30, 2010 (UTC)