Talk:Jūshirō Ukitake/Archive 2

Ukitake's illness
I'm going to reopen an old discussion and hope to not get killed in the process, because this issue has been nagging me ever since I first stepped on this wiki. Why do we keep saying Ukitake suffers from tuberculosis? Did I miss any reference? The last time this was discussed the conclusion was "All of his symptoms point to tuberculosis, so that must be it". But that's not how we do stuff, is it? Unless Kubo ever stated that his illness is tuberculosis we can't go around spreading misinformation. If I missed any Databook that confirmed it, forgive me for reopening this, but the article doesn't give any reference. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  23:42, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

I too am curious about this. I don't remember anything ever being said other than that he is sick and seeing his symptoms. While yes, all symptoms point to tuberculosis we cannot be certain unless Kubo has stated it somewhere--God (Pray)  23:52, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * actually never mind, if you look at the talk archive, it says it will be listed as tuberculosis until it is stated otherwise. I disagree with this but whatever--God (Pray)  00:05, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes I did read that discussion, it's pretty old (that's what I was talking about when I said "the last time it was discussed") but that was a long time ago and while I wasn't present at the time, I feel quite in disagreement with the outcome of that discussion, which is why I'm bringing this up now. There are series in which characters are confirmed to have tuberculosis but Ukitake is not the case, and I feel it's a strong contradiction to our policies to say that he has TB when we have no proof from the manga, TK or anything like that to back it up. Lia Schiffer   (Talk)  05:12, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Let's see wha the Admins say but I'm fine with it being either way!! We could state that he appears to suffer from TB but it is yet to be confirmed!! SunXia (talk) 00:33, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that it shouldn't be referred to as TB, regardless of how "obvious" it may seem. The speculation policy was not always enforced as well as it is these days; this might have just been one of those things that slipped between the cracks. Besides, there are other diseases that can make you cough blood. Mohrpheus (talk) 00:41, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

So as far as I'm getting Mohrph and I are in favor of removing the tuberculosis part, Sunxia is neutral and Godisme, I didn't quite get your position, but I'd like to know what the admins think of this. I went to Salubri to ask him about it a while ago and he said it could need to be reworded, but that's all. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  02:17, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

I am for just saying he is ill. I say remove the tuberculosis part--God (Pray)  02:23, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, it was not stated to be TB, and thus we should not just assume it was. 09:55, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Ukitake's Appearance
Now I may be picking at straws here but the policies here states that Manga is always held as a higher source that the Anime!! In the Anime and in his article, Ukitake has brown eyes and yet in the Manga, he has green eyes, as shown here on the cover for Chapter 335, it's quite clear his eyes are green!! Should we change it?? SunXia (talk) 03:12, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'd say we do it. Ukitake rarely gets color spreads, and doesn't have a volume cover, so it's understandable that this kind of thing has happened. I checked the raw scan and it's undeniably green. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  03:24, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Wow, ever since that whole Gin thing was resolved, a lot of these have been popping up. Again, I support going with the manga's portrayal of his eye color; the same has been done for Gin, Zaraki, Orihime and Yachiru, so I see no reason not to. Mohrpheus (talk) 03:27, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

I changed the Infobox, but his appearance section also describes his eyes as brown and I don't know how to describe the green of his eyes, could someone else do that? Also, for I checked the Karaburi to see if I could have any confirmation and in one of the color pages, it also shows Ukitake's green eyes. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  03:28, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

Agent of Shinigami Arc
Shouldn't there be something in the plot about this?? I know there was something in the past but it was taken away!! The fact is, Ukitake appeared in this Arc, even if it was as a brief flashback, he appeared and was relevant enough to actually place in the first Popularity poll!! Besides, others that have only appeared in flashbacks in different arcs have had their appearances inserted into their plot section!! SunXia (talk) 16:25, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Do you have the chapter he was in? I will check out how long he appeared and see if it warrants a section being created for it. If we can only give a one or two sentence of what happened I don't think it would be worth giving him an AotS arc section--God (Pray)  16:36, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

It was in chapter 23, pages 12-13. However, it doesn't matter because he only appeared in a flashback, not in the actual arc itself. He has to make an actual appearance in the arc to get a section for it. If this should be mentioned anywhere though, then the trivia section would be good for it, though the popularity poll one sorta takes care of it. TheDevilHand888 (talk) 16:56, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Well it is just a flashback but then, Tosen has a Bount Arc Section and his is barely a line or two long about non-canon Ichinose, thats only why I was asking!! He appears in Chapter 23 with Rukia wondering if she should help Ichigo!! Was merely asking!! SunXia (talk) 17:02, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

The information on the event it was a flashback to is in his history section anyway. 17:50, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Confused
Where does it say in Turn Back The Pendulum that the original 4 captains were around for the last 200 years as of 110 years? I thought it was for the last 100 years? Hisagi9 (talk) 04:30, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

At www.readbleach.com under chapter -108, page 15, that according to Captain Kyoraku: "...the only ones who've been captains for over 100 years are me, Ukitake, and Yama-ji, Right?" Captain Ukitake: "Not quite,There's Captain Unohana." So why is 200 years listed on Ukitake's article and Kyoraku's? Hisagi9 (talk) 05:30, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

I have made the appropriate change. It seems there was confusion when it was written. They were captains for over 100 years at that point and over 200 years at this point--God (Pray)  05:34, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. The problem with the years is also on Kyoraku's page too and the reference is wrong. Its page 15, not 13 of chapter -108.Hisagi9 (talk) 06:12, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

This article (Ukitake's) has the wrong page reference too. Page 13 talks about the kenpachi, not about the 100 years thing. Hisagi9 (talk) 06:14, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

No the references are right, we do not include what scanlators put in front of their releases. We only count the actual chapter--God (Pray)  06:16, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the info. Hisagi9 (talk)

To brown, or to green, that is the question.
Yes I do agree with the whole "manga is greater than anime thing" but if we put the anime picture there and the texts says 'green eyes'. thats going to confuse everybody. so either we forget about the "manga>anime" and put 'brown eyes' instead of green. or we could put both the anime picture of ukitake in brown eyes AND a picture of ukitake in green eyes. and in the texts write "Ukitake has brown eyes in the anime, however in the manga it shows that he has green eyes" or something.

Shwuazz (talk) 01:33, November 2, 2010 (UTC)Shwuazz

I brought this same point up but others have determined as the policies of the site and and manual of style state the manga takes precedent even on issue of coloration which is also stated should be determined by the anime. So apparently one policy trumps the other. So that point is moot, the obvious inclusion of what his eyes are commonly portrayed and what Kubo originally want them to be as well as Rangiku's hair color between anime and manga vary, but the general concept was that it was better to detail the original thoughts of the creator then use the colors commonly used by the anime staff. --Salubri (Talk)  01:37, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

What you just wrote is confusing.But can't we just write the fact that his eye colors differ dpending on wether it is anime or manga and not change the picture or add any picture? this bothers me alot and i won't setlle down until i get a satisfying answer from any of the wiki members that oppose my thesis.

Shwuazz (talk) 02:00, November 2, 2010 (UTC)Shwuazz

We are not goint to forget the manga>anime because the manga is drawn by Tite Kubo, the creator of the series, and so it is the primary source. So if he drew Ukitake with green eyes it's because he intended him to have green eyes. We can have a Trivia point to mention the difference between the two sources, but the manga color should be the one to stay in the appearance section. If people is confused, we have references to where Kubo drew him with green eyes. If we started to take the anime colors we'd have to start changing all characters who have black hair in the manga (Hisagi, Ishida, Nemu, Nanao, Sui-feng, Yumichika) to ambiguous colors like dark purple, dark blue, grayish purple, dark gray blue, etc. I find that more troublesome than citing the difference in the two sources. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  02:26, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

Thats not necessarily true lia there is a difference in intended color and using various colors used my cartoonists for contrast. If people want to argue that concept i haven't really seen it so going by that idea it doesn't hold. I for one am not ignorant enough to assume the hairs of any of those mentioned are anything but what they are currently stated, as well there current color descriptions have nothing to do with the concept that it is determined by the manga, thats certain peoples arguments with only the uninformed making a counter argument that they are the crazy colors you mentioned. These arguments or edits are not made frequently or even on occasion which was my point from the initial conversation. There is no precedent of anyone on the regular changing coloration as people seem to think. There is not even a policy or otherwise in place that attributes to this so in fact there is no reason that anime (the most commonly seen coloration) shouldnt take precedent as it does on most of the coloration of the series as detailed in the policy. basically people are arguing at phantom issues. --Salubri (Talk)  02:37, November 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was directing my comment to the user's first post, but anyway, I think so far we've seen Kubo has been consistent with the way he colors his characters, even with minute details as the eyes. But if we were to go to the anime coloring, then for the sake of consistency all of those that I mentioned would have to be changed from black to any other color, whatever they are in the anime. But as you said there are not many arguments about the colors, and I for one prefer Yamamoto's red eyes than the anime's brown (to name an example), and if anyone is confused or has any questions, we have references, they are there for a reason. Lia Schiffer   (Talk)  03:10, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

The problem being, it isn't a phantom issue if it is presenting problems as it has been. Gin's eyes, Rangiku's hair, numerous character eye colors; all of them have propagated lengthy discussions that ultimately led to the same conclusions. I won't bother repeating the same tired old arguments, because I don't want this to end up being swamped like the incident with Rangiku was. If no policy exists, then one needs to be established, because some of these changes have been witnessed and even supported by admins before. Consistency is the prime issue here. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  03:08, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

Then the question is consistent of what? If the anime is not the primary for coloration then coloration from the anime shouldn't be used and therefore all pics related to the anime should be removed. The coloration is never consistent because even though Kubo may intend a certain color to be used the manga is largely done in black and white the primary colors seen are in the anime, this is the reality of all manga series. As I stated before there is nothing requiring the use of manga for coloration and simply stating that we should because the colors from the anime are all over the place isn't viable because one thats based on interpretation and the current policy provides for the anime and there is no such issue and two no one questions the current colors. In fact so far the only issue I have seen about the colors are issues related between manga and anime. By that concept insisting upon using the colors from rare manga spreads has caused all the conversations about color usage. --<font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  05:05, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, here is my take on all of this. Bleach is the work of Tite Kubo:fact, What Kubo writes and draws is canon: fact, anything that contradicts what Kubo writes and draws is not canon:fact. Kubo's colored drawings are canon, if an anime coloring contradicts that then that anime coloring is not canon. The problem people have with certain colorings is that they have not seen the manga colorings or are anime only people. The fact remains that Kubo is consistent with his colorings and these should be regarded as canon. The anime has to use colors that fit their palette and have to make things easy on the eyes. Yama's red eyes are not easy on the eyes and so they changed that. Rangiku's hair is not in their color palette and so they changed that. The anime changes things so it can work in the anime, it should not be regarded as canon if it contradicts manga colorings--<font color="#660066" face="Verdana">God <font color="#660066" face="Verdana">(Pray)  05:27, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

The reality is we dont use the manga for majority of are coloratations. No one is disputing whats fact. The point is the only time an issue is raised is due to the difference in color between the medium that doesn't commonly use color and the one that does. I primarily read the manga and until presented in previous argument i had never noticed the colored portions or thought they were particularly significant mainly because they are so far and few in-between and because thats not the medium manga uses. There is no question that if we didn't predominately use the coloration provided by the anime we would have no colors for the vast majority of bleach. To say otherwise in this point means that we are to disregard any color provided by the anime. So in this case the general consensus seems to be remove any mention of color not provided by the manga and remove the anime based pics that would lead any user to infer otherwise. --<font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  05:37, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

No, the consensus is to use our anime policy which says that the anime is a secondary source and anything that does not contradict the manga is considered canon. We do not need to remove anime content, just note that discrepancies exist. There are few times the manga colorings contradict the anime but when they do, we need to treat the manga as the canon source as kubo himself wanted that to be the color--<font color="#660066" face="Verdana">God <font color="#660066" face="Verdana">(Pray)  05:54, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

Quoting from our policy:

''The primary source for references would be the manga. The secondary source is the anime. While anime can be included alongside the manga references to supplement them. Manga always takes precedent in references except in cases of anime only material and to showcase color and movement that only can be expressed via anime.''

In which case, the keywords are in bold. The cases we are talking about are not those that can only be expressed via anime. The anime version images are not an issue because they can be used to "supplement" the manga pics - nowhere in the policy does it say that what the anime portrays should be completely disregarded if there is a discrepancy, only that we treat the manga as the superior source in those cases (quoting from the Anime policy, Manga clearly takes precedent on the site, though anime is not to be discarded. Mohrpheus   (Talk)  06:05, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

Ok well lets not quote back the policy i wrote back to me. It doesnt make sense to state one color when clearly showing another. Otherwise these issues will continue hence why the current way doesn't make sense. No one disputes Kubos intentions but thats not what is shown in the anime pics littered all over every article, how is this rectified. You cant state it in the article and it will continue to be changed by others because they are seeing it as wrong. --<font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  06:32, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

There is no clear solution to this, its going to just have to be something we deal with. We can't not show the anime pics but we also cannot say an anime color is correct when the manga shows differently--<font color="#660066" face="Verdana">God <font color="#660066" face="Verdana">(Pray)  06:41, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

Even though placing the anime version in the appearance section and placing the manga version with Kubo's intention in the trivia section actually clearly fixes the situation seeing as only the most avid users namely P&S committee members have argued this point that the manga version needs to be placed over the anime version. I guess your way does make more sense. Thats not a fact of hiding behind a policy that wasn't even made with this conversation initially took place. There is no actual policy to specifically state any of this but whatever's easiest for you. Lets see how many discussions take place after all this to decide to do nothing as before. --<font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  07:02, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

I understand your point about it being contradictory, but you have said that there are rarely any discussions about these "color issues", so I don't see which issues would continue. People who ask can be referred to the manga colorings that show the original colors, and any edit can be reverted in one or two clicks, as we have been doing so far. I haven't seen any edit war recently, except perhaps some trouble about the color of Kensei's hilt and that hasn't even appeared in the manga. I'm still in favor of keeping the manga version in the Appearance section, and maybe mentioning any significant difference in the Trivia section like it was done with Rangiku's hair color or Gin's eyes. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  07:09, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

I don't see it as a serious problem at all!! We have the Trivia section for parts like that!! The Manga is the original source and is drawn as Tite Kubo, the creator, intended it to be!! That would be like putting films as more important than the source they were based on when really, the Movie is only one person's attempt at interpreting the creator's concepts!! I don't see it as a problem to let people know that the Manga is the Primary source since the Snime wouldn't exist without the Manga!! This isn't from a Biased point of view since personally i prefer the Anime but the fact remains that the Manag is the Primary Source and every character that has been created by the Manga should be left as the creator intended it!! I don't see anything wrong with stating the variation in the Trivia Section that each profile has!! I don't see this as causing problems since it's been months since that girl complained about Rangiku and even longer since somebody complained about Gin!! There are so many other problems that are dealt with every day by comparison!! If we negate that rule here then it might as well be negated in every other aspect of the site!! I don't see the problem, Tite made Ukitake's eyes green, I think they should be listed as such and the disambiguity left in the Trivia!! SunXia (talk) 08:45, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

Lets get something straight the anime policy is never meant to address this issue only plot, powers and abilities content. Also The manual of style gives a point to the coloration specifically under the 2nd rule of source referencing. Its not a matter of if you prefer anime or manga or whether Kubo's interpretation is factual or canon. Its about consistency in the article. You can't have contradictory information all over the article just because its the more accurate way of determining what the creator wanted. Yes manga does take precedent but not in a medium (color) that it doesn't feature consistently no more then manga takes precedent over games or filler arcs in their respective areas. Contrary to belief There is no existing policy that dictates or is intended to address this specifically. --<font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  15:07, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

Then we need one and it should say as I have said. Manga colorations should be placed in the appearance section to clarify and the policy should state that any anime color that contradicts a manga color is not canon. It is contradictory of us to say anything kubo does is canon except for color. --<font color="#660066" face="Verdana">God <font color="#660066" face="Verdana">(Pray)  15:43, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

No one said his colorations werent canon but they aren't consistent with the pics we have all over the articles. Once again the only time these color issues come up is with the instance of you guys making it a point to place this information into the appearance section. The reality is manga doesn't use color but rarely if thats the basis we go by then it should hold for everything. Anything else would be disregarding the point of having anime on the site at all. Also no one is saying that anything kubo does is canon except for colorations but the fact is if something is a consistent color then and he hasn't had them change it by now then he allows it, seeing as the colorations for everything are correct im not seeing the issue with this. Regardless its not consistent and whats contradictory is all determined by the people making the point of using rare manga coloration in an article that consistently shows something entirely different. The current way works for you guys so thats fine.