Talk:Genryūsai Shigekuni Yamamoto/Archive 5

Eijisai
丿字斎 is the kanji for Eijisai. I'm not very sure about it, but I think it means "'Ei'-word sage" (don't know the meaning of Ei). Coutinho305 (talk) 15:01, September 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's just a reference to the shape of the scar. Ji is character, so it's the ei-character shaped scar. Ei itself is just a kanji radical name, I *think*, but here there's no need to translate.Vraieesprit (talk) 11:01, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Misspelled Techniques?
"残火の太刀の西　残日獄衣" would be "Zanka no Tachi, West: Zanjitsu Gokui." Likewise, "残火の太刀の東　旭日刃" is "Zanka no Tachi, East: Kyokujitsujin." Just something to point out. :3 Degausser18 (talk) 15:16, September 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * That will be determined by Adam and the translation corner.--
 * While I'm aware that only the translation corner can provide final confirmation, when they have access to a raw, the rōmaji should still be changed in this case. Both Mangastream and MangaPanda's versions use "Zanka no Tachi, West: Zanjitsu Gokui" and "Zanka no Tachi, East: Kyokujitsujin". So, while I don't know exactly which version the rōmaji were taken from, I'd presume that you simply mistook the "i" in each for a "u" instead. Blackstar1 (talk) 16:58, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Bankai and plotline
There are a few mistakes in both his Bankai description and the latest plotline addition. Sorry to bother you so soon after the new release, but I can't change it myself, because the page is locked.

Firstly, "point" of his sword, should be "edge" of his sword. Secondly, when Genryūsai hits that stone, it isn't blown to bits. The slash actually makes a huge gap in the ground ("eradicating everything to nothingness"). The frame is shown from within the gap. Thirdly, Juha Bach's sword isn't cut in half. If this was the case, we would have seen the other half flying away, like Kubo normally does. No, the other half is just incinerated by Yamamoto's Flame Clad. He actually says he can't be touched, because his body is embosomed by 15 million degree flames.

Thank you for your attention and comprehension. --Empty moon (talk) 19:06, September 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Highly subjective, especially compared to your source. It clearly is the point not the edge until he releases his first technique. Secondly the level of degree's is very different from what im reading. Either way some things are changed.--
 * I used Manga Inn, and it came out as "edge" and "fifteen million degrees" when I read it. It might be different on other websites, though, since Japanese and English do not always translate smoothly. Meta5 (talk) 03:26, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry Salubri, I myself found that I might have said it a little too hard. Still, I'm going on the Mangastream translation. It can still be a mistranslation of course, but if it was "the edge" it would make a lot more sense. Why would Genryūsai otherwise say "edge" when he explains Zanka no Tachi, East. Everything else I said wasn't even speculative, I only went by what Yamamoto said. Still, thank you for the changes and your patience. I know I can sometimes seem a bit intolerant, again sorry for that.--Empty moon (talk) 22:40, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

I appologize for butting in the conversation, but even now the Bankai section has quite a few errors in regards to it's writing and structure, and since it's protected, it can't be edited unless by someone with the proper powers. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:43, September 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well trust its a fine reflection of whats stated. Exactly the information that needs to be there and if there is an issue it will be handled by the grammar corner.-- 02:55, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Translation
This is just a question about the translation of the second technique. I've seeen it at some times Zanji Tsugoki and other times, "Zanjitsu Gokui." On the website, it spelt "Zanjutsu Gokui." How exactly is it? CaptainOtoribashi (talk) 21:02, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * We are waiting on proper translations from our translators.--

Flashback Appearance
Wasn't sure if this goes under forums or if its fine here. I was reading issue 507 and when Juhabach explains Yamamoto's Bankai in a flashback, you see a picture of Yamamoto from behind what appears like a sleeveless captain's haori but not entirely sure if its clear. Here's the reference: http://www.mangahere.com/manga/bleach/v53/c507/4.html

Should this be added as a note under his appearance or not really relevant? --Northstar1012 (talk) 14:47, September 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * The style of a captains Haori doesnt seem to be a set in stone thing. As a piece of clothing it is subject to the captain in questions particular style. Kenpachi tends toward the sleeveless and tattered version. Yoruichi used to wear a long sleeved one and Sui-feng wears a sleeveless haori. Tosen wore a long sleeved haori while kensei in both terms as captain wore a sleeveless one. It would stand to reason that when Yamamoto was younger and far more active he had a sleeveless haori and if then he likely changed style with age. Either way this would be a very minor point to make on the article so im not convinced of its relevancy.--


 * Bankai:Zanka no Tachi: In it's Bankai, the blade takes the form of an ancient and worn katana

From the bankai section, and trimmed slightly. Just pointing out that "it's" should be "its". It's = it is. Its = possessive.

Typo
Can't seem to start a new topic sooo, this is going to end up under some other topic...

Zanka no Tachi, Minami: Kaka Juuman Okushi Daisoujin (残火の太刀 "南":, Longsword of the Remnant Flame, South:): Yamamoto impales the tip of his sword into the ground and calls upon the corpses, the ashes of the dead who were killed by his flames to come forth and fight on his behalf for a amount of time.[144]

Should be "for an amount of time" it wouldn't let me edit it so I thought I'd bring it up Kiadote12 (talk) 21:05, September 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * As for the new topic section, you can just use "=" to make Header 2's or type the name of the heading in the summary box. -- Qazqaz 555  21:07, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Translation
I saw the raw scan. the corpse technique's last part in kanji is this: 火火十万億死大葬陣.



 ☆ DC2 ☆  (You in mah territory, biotch!) 20:22, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

The name of the chapter 天地灰尽 is the same as the name of the technique.--Zero62422002 (talk) 19:01, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Onibi Description/Translation
Since I can't edit the page myself, I guess I'll just point this out here.

Th definition of Yamamato's "Oni Fire" doesn't really define what the technique does. Instead, it just describes the effect on the one opponent he used it on, and not what actually happens.

I'm thinking we could change it to something like "A technique where Yamamato takes his zanpakuto in its sealed cane form and thrusts it at his opponent, forming a large hole in their body. This technique was effective against a multiple story-high opponent like Ayon."

Sound reasonable?

Xilinoc (talk) 00:25, October 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * While we're on the subject of this, shouldn't it be "demon fire" not "oni fire"? Not that I like anglicising native terms but given the prolific examples on other pages where things like tachi have been forcibly translated into English, I'm confused why onibi is oni fire and not demon fire...Vraieesprit (talk) 08:16, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

The precedent is that technique descriptions are generally neutral, so Xilinoc's replacement will suffice. As for the translation, seeing as the "oni" as "demon" was decided for Shunsui's -oni techniques, it should probably be swapped for consistency's sake. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  13:38, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * While it may have been substituted on Shunsui's page, the words oni fire were written out in english in the japanese version of the databook. We always go with whatever the databook says.--


 * In theory that makes sense, though in practice for an English language site to base its translation on a Japanese language book has its issues. Names that appear in English in the Japanese book aren't meant to be considered translations, and they're also not for the English speaking market. We need an official translation of the data book (maybe the manga chapter even?) but in the meantime, if the site is sticking with oni fire, a note needs to be somewhere to say that an oni is (sort of) a type Japanese demon. That would cover the people who aren't familiar with Japanese spirit culture, and resolve the problem until an official translation of the technique is available.Vraieesprit (talk) 17:10, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

Putting in "oni fire" as such would be the most we put in, if even. Cultural information is generally omitted - the technique's name is not pertinent nor relevant to its function, so there is little reason to include it. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  18:43, October 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's not a cultural issue, it's a translation issue. I respect your opinion, but looking at it from an objective standpoint, this site provides translations for all techniques into English, irrespective of how much the name represents the technique. The term oni is a native Japanese term which has no meaning in English. Therefore if we are using it, it should be explained - in whatever way the mods deem appropriate.Vraieesprit (talk) 20:13, October 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Taking a look back at these, it seems this was Adam's translation. Digging further, it seems that Adam also suggested that Shunsui's techniques use the term Oni rather than demon as he says they fit better. As you know, Adam is our lead translator. If you have a problem with one of his translations, take it up with him.--


 * I don't really know what relevance that has, honestly. I'm just saying that if we're using a uniquely Japanese term on the site, somehow there ought to be a way of approximating what that means in English, since not every Bleach fan will automatically understand the term. Mohrpheus' suggestion of the link to Wiki is probably the simplest, though it takes it outside of BleachWiki.Vraieesprit (talk) 20:40, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

about his death in the plot section
Just wanted to make a small edit in the last paragraph of yama jiis plot section but I guess it's locked because of the amount of activity he has seen recently. The sentence I wanted to change references him falling down dead. the very next sentence then mentions him reaching out to Juhabach and JB having to cut his hand off. If that's the case then he clearly didn't fall down dead. Can someone reword that first sentence of that last paragraph. Wolfwood (Shoot)  13:46, October 10, 2012 (UTC)

Eijisai, Jujisai and Genryuusai
Of course, all of those three were nicknames, even Genryusai which most of us probably thought it was Old Man Yama's second name. So, my vote is to change page name to just Shigekuni Yamamoto. And about his other nicknames:

- Eijisai (丿字斎): Ei (丿) is Radical 4. Four Equals Death. - Juujisai (十字斎): Juu (十) is the number 10. 10 is symbolic of perfection in Japan. - Yamamoto added "元柳斎" (Genryuusai: "original willow sage") to his﻿ name because of this. In Chinese folklore, the willow is believed to ward off evil spirits; in Japanese, it's associated with ghosts and the afterlife. It's also a symbol of strength; geisha call their society the "flower and willow world": beautiful and requiring strength to endure. --Black Butler94 (talk) 20:13, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

I think you maybe confused, first off we dont vote on this site unless a admin or committee member calls for a vote. Secondly this is not an issue. --

Titles
At the bottom of the page in the titles section, we should change his titles to reflect his death. Change present to the current year and change incumbent to not yet assigned. A dead person cannot lead an organization. Kamikaze839 (talk) 14:43, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

done.--

Time issue...
I wanted to query the timeframe re: Yama's incumbency. Right now this article says both that the Gotei and position of CC began 1000 years ago and that Bach claimed the Gotei lost its battle teeth 1000 years ago (strongly indicating it existed as an organisation before that point). That's contradictory. It's not referenced on this page, but I'm pretty certain in the Arrancar arc, its said that the King's Key is handed from CC to CC, implying that there was a CC before Yama. While I don't want the article to include speculation, the current date information is also speculative since it can't be absolutely verified by the manga. Suggest that the start date for First Captaincy is changed to "unknown" and the previous incumbent for CC is also changed to "unknown"Vraieesprit (talk) 15:48, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Databooks said that Yamamoto founded the Gotei 13 1000 years ago.--
 * I own all three databooks and the ColorBleach in Japanese, and that's the first I've heard of it. I'm pretty sure it says he became the CC 1000 years ago, but nothing about the founding of the Gotei 13, and I looked into this recently for another site following the chapter with the Gotei references. Even the BWiki article says "at some point" and there is no Databook reference on the article supporting the claim that I can see - do you remember which Databook? I can check for sure. Vraieesprit (talk) 16:35, November 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * Firstly his altercation with Yama was 1,000 years ago. If anything is implied it is what he actually was talking about, which was that the dangerous version of the Gotei 13 ended after they presumably killed off the Quincy. He made no point of stating when anything began and you cant infer such information from his statement. Secondly the information as of Yama being the captain commander for a 1000 years was stated by him in his fight verse Wonderweiss. (chapter 394, page 6); his foundation of the gotei 13 is stated in (bleach masked pg222, bleach souls pg98) It is conceivable that some form of organization existed anywhere around 2000 years ago when Yama founded the Shino academy but there is nothing stating that it was the Gotei 13 as we currently know it and could be the less organized and loosely created "divisions" that juhabach mentioned.--


 * Masked page 222: '''"[Genryuusai] created the foundations of the Gotei Corps."
 * Souls p.98, "The Captain of the First Division, [Yama] is also the SouTaichou in overall supervision/command of the Gotei 13".
 * Neither source claims that Genryuusai founded the Gotei 1000 years ago, just that he founded it, which we all know. I'm not disputing the fact he's been CC for 1000 years, if you read my point again, just the other stuff around it.
 * Furthermore, this scene from Bleach 223 proves that there were CC before Yama, otherwise there would be no Oral Tradition.
 * In the raw for 511, Bach clearly refers to the Gotei 13 by actual name, not just divisions as one scanlation has it. (see first speech bubble on the right, second column, first five characters)
 * Seems pretty clear cut to me that the page is wrong.Vraieesprit (talk) 20:36, November 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * I have the books myself, i see them clearly, you are entitled to take them however you choose. Two separate instances of corroborated source material, trump one brief mention of something never elaborated on or mentioned again. The info isnt enough its a possible implication at best. The information stays as such that it is, seeing as your essentially arguing over the words 'position created' with nothing to determine it being inaccurate but one ambiguous point never clarified.--