Forum:Bankai The Elusive Skill

Ok I did a run down the best I could so here we go. There are a total of 10 Known Bankai users


 * Konjiki Ashisogi Jizō (Mayuri), Ryūmon Hōzukimaru (Ikkaku), Daiguren Hyōrinmaru (Hitsugaya), Senbonzakura Kageyoshi (Byakuya), Jakuho Raikoben (Soifon), Enma Kōrogi (Tosen), Kokujō Tengen Myō'ō (Komamura), Hihiō Zabimaru (Renji), Tensa Zangetsu (Ichigo), Raika Gōen Kaku (Amagai)

That is 10 out of 38 possible prominent candidates who wield a zanpakuto in the series. Out of 27 Gotei 13 members 8 have shown bankai. Out of 10 current captains 6 have shown bankai. Out of those 10, 6 are present in fake Karakura and 3 are known out of those 6. There is 1 lieutenant out of the current 12 to possess bankai and 1 seated officer out of over 260+ seat officers in the gotei 13. With 1 out of 2 seated officers possessing bankai in fake karakura town. 1 out of 3 in Aizens group has shown bankai though all are capable. 1 out of 9 Vizards have shown bankai though its more then likely that all possess bankai over the 4 that are former captains. There is 0 known among the 3 in Urahara's group though they are capable of it and then there is 1 from a amagai who is deceased.

The point i was making is that bankai is the most exclusive abilities in the entire bleach series with only 10 out of 38 probable users. Its also the least used of the combat abilities depending more or less on the character but still far less used then sealed zanpakuto, shikai, kido, hakuda, zanjutsu, flash steps or any technique in the series. So far the most times the known bankai's have been used are: Ichigo = all the time; Hitsugaya = about 9; Mayuri = 4; Soifon = 1; Komamura = 3; Tosen = 2; Byakuya = 4-5; Renji = 5-6; Ikakku = 3-4.Salubri 21:54, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I'v noticed that also. It's almost seems the cool thing among bankai users is not to use it. It seems most of them use it as a last ditch effort. Well except Ichigo, who seems to use it when he doesn't even have to. Also remember 2 of the bankai users do not like their bankai. Ikkaku and Soifon. But which of the vizards showed bankai? Unless your taking out Hachi and counting Ichigo.Quadrupus 23:40, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

When you take out anime fillers and movies, it becomes more lik: Ichigo: 7 times I think, Hitsugaya: 4, Mayuri: 2, Soifon: 1, Komamura: 2, Tosen: once not counting the TBTP mini arc just because that wasn't really a fight, Byakuya: 3, Renji: about 3, Ikkaku: 1. Of course the movie and fillers are going to show as much bankai as possible because it's sensational and so on. But this just shows how rare it really is used, except for Ichigo. This is probably because it takes a lot of energy to activate and use bankai, once again, with the exception of Ichigo due to the nature of his bankai. So they don't want to use it unless they have to because it's such an effort. BollyW 23:59, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Quadrupus, Hachigen did not use Shikai in his battle against Barragan, so he certainly didn't use Bankai! He simply relied on Kidou for the entire battle. Animeluvr92 01:35, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I'm aware of Hachi, thats why I asked if he was taking out Hachi of the equation. Salubri fixed his post, he first stated that 1 of 8 vizards have used bankai. There are only 8 Vizards not including Ichigo who doesn't consider himself part of the group. But is one by classification.Quadrupus 02:11, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

What is the TBTP mini-arc? I'd like to see that.

When it comes to the vizards, we should assume only the former captains have bankai. I doubt the lieutenant vizards (like Mashiro) have achieved it.

If anything, bankai is too common, since only one person is supposed to be able to achieve it every few generations. (Probably demonstrably false, given it's frequency.) PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) 02:15, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Ok I think your misinformed. First the Turn back the pendulum arc took place in chapter -108 to -97 which is set between chapters 315 and 316 or episodes 206-212. Secondly it only takes 10 years to learn bankai if you have trained toward that specific goal and 10 years to master it. Secondly The vizard have been around for 100 years training and waiting to get revenge on Aizen it is only logical that they have achieved every possible skill to combat him and achieve success. Not to mention they stopped being lieutenants 100 years ago so please don't call them such they are nolonger Gotei 13 those titles and status matter little seeing as they can take on the top espada. Third bankai is not at all common hence what i stated and the point of the thread and why the others agreed. Anyone is capable of achieving bankai though most do not. It is not one in every few generations, byakuya said that and he said it was something among the noble families of soul society not shinigami in general if that was true it would be impossible to have captains of the same generation when there are many of them the same generation.Salubri 03:08, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Ahh I was under the impression that not many could achieve bankai even with training. Byakuya states that "even the four noble families, whose members are always exceptionally talented have a member capable of bankai every few generations". This is why he is so shocked at Ichigo achieving bankai. When you think about it, only the captains, plus Renji, who has always been said to have talent, Ikkaku and Ichigo, who has a father with captain level reiatsu have achieved it. So it is rare, and the only reason we see it so often is because the story of course, focuses on the most powerful shinigami and their most powerful enemies. BollyW 03:43, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Yes but as i stated and you have as well byakuya was referring to the only group that matters in his eyes the noble families he said nothing of the gotei 13 or the shinigami in general. As the main reason to only consider his words so far as the nobles not the shinigami which is better expressed by yoruichi when she explained bankai to ichigo. Byakuya possessing bankai would explain why kaien who was a genius and far older then byakuya never achieved bankai as his family used to be the fifth noble family at one point in time. But it would not explained Yoruichi and Ginrei being captains so byakuya was either being elitist and arrogant in assuming it was only a possibility for nobles and even then only every few generations or he was making it up to taunt ichigo lack of skill and  status as a human. I would sooner believe the later as the former doesn't make sense given what we know of the captains and that they have bankai as i stated previously.Salubri 05:14, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I agree mostly, I just don't think Byakuya was lying or arrogant then. Consider how many souls there are in existance. The vast majority of these billions have little to no spiritual power, only a small percentage become shinigami. Of these, the vast majority never achieves shikai, and of those who achieve shikai, a small percentage go on to achieve bankai. It's telling that out of the more than 6 billion souls in the world (probably far far more then that have gone through soul society) only 23 or so have certainly achieved bankai in the past 100 years (i'm not including the vizard vice-captains just because it isn't certain). Which is an indication of its rarity. So those who do achieve bankai without even the advantage of belonging to a noble family are truly exceptional individuals. BollyW 05:22, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I don't really think Byakuya was being arrogant. He was just saying only a few people can achieve it noble or otherwise. He just said nobles are born with higher reiatsu at birth. I don't think Byakuya would have any issues believing that commoners from Rukongai could achieve bankai. We are talking about a guy who married a soul from Rukongai over the object of his family here. Plus, the Gotei 13 captains are a mix of nobles (Byakuya, Soifon, Kyoraku, Ukitake) and people from Rukongai (Hitsugaya, Ichimaru (captain at the time), Tosen (captain at the time), Komamura, Zaraki), so I think he just didn't believe an "outsider" could achieve bankai. As he kept looking down on Ichigo as a mere human. I am sure Byakuya wouldn't have said what he said if he knew Ichigo's father was a shinigami. Making Ichigo anything but "just a human with borrowed shinigami powers". It did seem to take them awhile to get it through their heads that Ichigo's powers were his own and no trace of the power Rukia lent him was left in his body. Tinni 05:28, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I compiled this for my own amusement, figured I might as well put it here. Tinni 05:31, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

People with bankai Revealed
 * Soifon
 * Byakuya
 * Renji
 * Komamura
 * Tosen
 * Hitsugaya
 * Madarame
 * Kurotsuchi
 * Ichigo

Not Revealed
 * Yamamoto
 * Yoruichi
 * Ichimaru
 * Rose
 * Unohana
 * Aizen
 * Shinji
 * Love
 * Kyoraku
 * Kensei
 * Urahara
 * Ukitake
 * Isshin

People who might have bankai
 * Tessei - captain of Kido corp, not sure if bankai is a requirement for the Kido corp captaincy
 * Hisagi - acting captain of squad 9, which is different from Kira and Hinamori who didn't get that title, is still trying to fight so KT might have more of his power to show

I just wanted to add that the two people who use their bankai the most are Ichigo and Hitsugaya and the common trait they share is that they are both very young. I.e. adolescents. I guess you can apply the young argument to Renji as well but Renji is weaker then those two generally so probably needs his bankai to fight toe to toe with the new breed of enemies. Same goes with Ikkaku who is not young, just doesn't have the power to fight enemies like the arrancar without his bankai. Tinni 05:38, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Why I understand your point we cant sugar coat byakuya's elitism or arrogance even the good guys have character flaws so trust me ive done references on his page so i can recall the situations do you recall he talked down to zaraki as a commoner before rukia's execution, he talked down to ichigo multiple times, he married a commoner but it had more to do with her rather then her status. He even talked down to Ukitake once. Its a pretty sure thing unless your a noble or the general he wouldn't bother to show respect and we haven't seen him show any for others besides his former wife, grandfather and the general with some for rukia and renji. He till this day doesn't except Ichigo and threatens him when if he tries to get in his way. He may not be about status for the most part but he is a person cold and arrogant much like a elitist noble is commonly portrayed. Beyond that my point was that bankai is shown by a small few and even from those that we know have them its obvious and yes im including all vizard because its logical otherwise hachi, mashiro, lisa and hiyori could have stayed at the warehouse instead of taking on the top 3 espada. The number is still small and we are still only seeing 10.Salubri 05:49, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Im not sure here it might not be a requirement but I have a problem with saying people in a fight situation and formalized military dont have all the power they can at their disposal. Otherwise they are at a large disadvantage If a fight were to happen and they were one trick ponies. Also Ichigo is young Toshiro just looks young and only is young by shinigami standards so being that we having the conversation are regular humans i would think that only in relation to human age ichigo matters as a adolescent. Renji is the same age as Rukia, Izuru and Momo and therefore is actually older then Hitsugaya.Salubri 05:49, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Byakuya is arrogant and treats other's with respect only if they are seen as worthy in his eyes, I just don't think that you can apply it to what he said about the level it takes to achieve bankai, that's all. It would just seem out of place. Secondly, that's my point, Ichigo and Hitsugaya haven't reached full power yet, while Renji is older, his reiatsu is not as strong as those two and so naturally he relies more on his bankai to fight. For the military analogy, you don't send a navy to do a destroyer's job, so if bankai is not necessary, why would you use it? Especially in the current situation where they can't guarantee that they have time to rest after their current fight. BollyW 13:36, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I think that those who use their bankai only use them for a certain reason. Or as a truimph card I must say. Except for those who have skill enhancing Bankais for example Ichigo, Renji, and Toshiro. They use their more often because they needed their abilities enhanced in order to defeat their oppenent. Others such as Soifon and Tosen tried to use theirs as their wildcard. Meaning they used it inorder to defeat their oppenent in one hit or move so to say. Though both of their bankai did not do the trick as you can see they ran out of options after they used it. I think that is the reason Urahara didnt use his to train Chad and Shunsui didnt use his to defeat Starrk. Their Bankais are One hit and die type of moves if you understand what I mean. As for Ikkaku he would use his more often he was not trying to hide it from everyone I think. His is also a skill enhancing Bankai. I would also call Bayakuay skill enhancing as well but I think he just doesnt use his because his almighty attitude. According to him you must be worthy to see his bankai. Komamura is also skill enhancing and he does not have a issues showing his bankia. So for those who have skill enhancing Bankais you will see them more often then others. Tealang99 13:56, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Whoa even for speculation thats totally out of place. Shunsui states that bankai in general are all trump cards to be used only at last resort. Ichigo always uses his even when not necessary which shows you were his power level is compared to other captains who rarely if ever use theirs in every major battle ichigo has used bankai and the hollow mask (though the latter not always). Renji doesn't use his half as much as ichigo and Toshiro's powers are great and there are aspects that are still not usable or controllable as his power is still immature but Shunsui even speaks of how powerful he is and how he can possibly surpass him. Tosen doesn't hesitate to use his but he has his pseudo philosophy on fighting and life and what not and believes his other abilities are great enough to handle the situation. Soifon doesn't like her bankai and doesnt use it cause it offends her pride and yes its a one shot at best but is extremely powerful and is taxing to use as it depletes her spiritual power. But to say that Urahara and Shunsui dont use theirs because they are one hit and die type moves, what are you talking about what type of fan fiction is that, unless your kubo and have written that out you wouldnt know that so you basically made it up. We don't know what thier bankai is to even infer what it could be for sure Uraharas has said that his is not fit for training others or lending them power so who knows what else the possibilities for its capabilities are limitless. Shunsui was only told by ukitake not to take it out where others can see and he obviously didn't need to use it. Ikakku's has no known power besides a increase in attack power and he has yet to show full capabilities with it even less then Renji with his. You also cant make assertions about Byakuya we all seen what his does and it doesn't enhance his skills anymore then they are nor is it ever inferred as being able to do as such. Komamura brings out a giant samurai that doesn't enhance his skills the only one so far with a skill enhancing bankai is ichigo, hence his use of it all the time. All bankai grant extra power to fight with but none enhances skills but ichigo's, its so frustrating when people make up stuff.Salubri 17:08, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

First of all Salubri you need to relax. What I was trying to say be enhanced skill is that the abilities of the Zapakuto is increased. Thats what Bayakuya does and does Toshiro's. It increases their Zanpakuto skills. The reason I said Urahara's is that type is becuase Urahara said his is not good for trainging. This is not a Fact based page. We can state our opinions here. Its not like im changing profiles or anything like that. All you really did was restate half the things I already said anyway so chill. Do you see me blasting you for some of the forums you start that are opinion based. NO! So give me the same respect that I give you. Tealang99 17:26, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Actually we do state facts on here as well otherwise we have no arguments at all to base are talks on. In fact the bases of this thread i started is on facts. So in particular this one is a fact based page everyone on here is talking about facts, but made up fan fiction opinions are problem on this site and they start in forum pages, your opinions your entitled to but if not me someone would have called you out as being wrong in your assertions or someone would have taken as fact and put it on a page. While I respect your right to have an opinion i can also use facts to tell you your wrong in this case your way off base what you stated was something like it was a fact when that information isnt even possible to know. Maybe the wording you wanna use for byakuya is different but by no means does his bankai enhance him, all zanpakuto bankai's enhance power thats universal it cant be attributed to directly effecting ones abilities except in ichigo's case. The case and point is we were discussing know facts and someone could easily mistake what you said as if it were one and then we have a problem. Thats what i was trying to get at, im not trying to get into a fight with you on it but some people dont know better and i try to take care of issue before it becomes one being that i see it too often.Salubri 17:49, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

That I understand. If my opinion will cause issues on this site please feel free to correct me at anytime. I know that I am not always right and I respect everyone view on this site.Tealang99 18:08, October 2, 2009 (UTC)