Talk:Zanjutsu

kendo
Would you add kendo as a technique, seeing as it's a clear and separate skill Kenpachi learned from Yamamoto? Benihime101 (talk) 07:55, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to remove Arrancar
We don't have Arrancar in either the Hoho and Hakuda page and so I don't see why we have them in the "Zanjutsu" page. I mean, I understand that Arrancar have their own Hoho equivalent - Sonido and we determine that Hakuda wasn't just "hand-to-hand combat" but a specific style of hand-to-hand combat used by Shinigami. But surely the same reasoning applies to Zanjutsu! For one, most of the Shinigami on this page have had formal training in Zanjutsu though either the Shinigami Academy and/or privately. Many of them know specific philosophies like Kendo. How can we compared people with that level of training to Arrancar, who seem to be more "instinctive" fighters as opposed to trained fighters. More importantly, "Zanjutsu", like Hoho and Hakuda, was specifically identified as a Shinigami skill. NOT a general term applicable to anyone who uses Zanpakuto. So I believe the Arrancar should be removed to their own page. Tinni  (Talk)  05:33, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Quoting from the page itself, "While others may maintain any level of skill in swordsmanship Zanjutsu is exclusive to Shinigami." So yeah, there is no reason Arrancar should be on here--God (Pray)  05:38, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

This discussion seems to have bleed into the Jinzen discussion below but the consensus is that Arrancar do not belong in this article. Great! I'll remove them and fix the tables while I am at it as well. Tinni  (Talk)  16:08, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Jinzen
Related to my proposal to remove Arrancar from this page, I think the Jinzen and really much of the "Zanpakutō Control" section should be part of this page and not the Zanpakutō page. Isshin makes it clear the Jinzen was a technique that was researched and developed as part of Shinigami training regime, which means that it is part of the "swordsmanship philosophy" taught to Shinigami. I.e. it is part of the Zanjutsu training and a Zanjutsu technique. A non-combat technique certainly but it is still something that belong here, in my opinion. Tinni  (Talk)  05:37, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

I have to disagree on this one. Jinzen and the other things mentioned in the Zanpakutō control section relate to interaction with the spirit of one's Zanpakutō. Zanjutsu is combat with a sword. I feel the aforementioned things relate much more to the Zanpakutō page and not Zanjutsu--God (Pray)  05:42, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

While Jinzen can be considered a Zanjutsu technique, so can Shikai and Bankai. However, the three are more closely related the spirit of the Zanpakuto than the actual combat style of a particular Shinigami, so I personally think it's fine where it is. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  06:05, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

I will back this proposal, much like Hakuda and Shunpo the ability to use swordsmanship and the actual specific form of combat known as Zanjutsu are different. The Arrancar should be removed from the page. Also Jinzen as a technique and the Zanpakuto control section should be moved to Zanjutsu. Its erroneous to say that Shikai and bankai are techniques when they are in fact forms Zanpakuto take, forms they take regardless of the degree of skill one has with fighting with them (on a particular basis of course, the opposite is more accurate). --Salubri (Talk)  13:55, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Hm. I looked over the page again and it indeed mentioned Shikai and Bankai to begin with, which I had admittedly forgotten. Zanjutsu is the art of using the Zanpakuto's powers in addition to using the sword itself as a weapon, I suppose any techniques/forms related to it could be mentioned on this page. My only issue is how the information should be properly divided between this page and the Zanpakuto article, lest some of the information is repeated, since it is relevant to both articles. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  15:10, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

This is simple actual swordsmanship is designed around techniques combative or otherwise used by the swordsman. The portion in the paragraph about the shikai and bankai can be removed not sure why its there now that i read it. The arracnar or anything pertaining to them can be removed and the training section on the zanpakuto page can be moved to zanjutsu. --Salubri (Talk)  15:36, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Since it seems that we are generally in agreement that the Arrancar should be removed. I'll remove them now. We can keep thinking about what from the Zanpakuto page should be moved to this article. Tinni  (Talk)  16:08, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

While removing the Arrancar and Arrancar related stuff, I removed that entire following section as its totally and utterly wrong! This is not the definition of Zanjutsu! I mean, Zanjutsu is taught using wooden swords for crying out loud! It does NOT involve learning a Zanpakuto's special abilities as that can only be taught by the Zanpakuto itself. What it teaches is actual swordsmanship techniques that can be used with any swords AND special techniques that'll help the Shinigami commune with their Zanpakuto better - i.e. Jinzen. Tinni  (Talk)  16:19, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

'As the name suggests, it involves using a Zanpakutō'' and its various special abilities to attack an opponent. In addition to its basic form, each Zanpakutō has two enhanced forms: and, which change the sword's form to unlock its potential and that of its user.'''

Nadegiri
When and where it got mentioned that Nadegiri is a Zanjutsu technique and not a technique of Ryuujin Jakka alone? And I think this information should be mentioned as a reference in the article. Sanji Taichou (talk) 15:19, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

When and where is it mentioned that it is a technique of Ryuujin Jakka alone? It isn't in fact in both manga and anime you cannot even make that assumption that is. To date Ryuujin Jakka has not exhibited any attacks unique to it other then fire-based ones. Kendo would be considered a swordsmanship technique as well. Its not unique to kenpachi its a sword fighting style with many attacks styles under it, in fact the swing he used against nnorita has been recently stated and regardless that is not unique to him. Nadegiri is clearly depicted as nothing more then a simple sword slash. So the the question would be as the one bringing up the topic by what proof would there be reason to question its placement. Any look at this sites policies would clearly inform that we go by what is stated and clearly depicted. This site has many references and its in fact required to be referenced to be in the article. Nadegiri is referenced as having taken place it needs no more confirmation then to state that its a sword attack other then clearly seeing it take place, there is no proof of its uniqueness in relation to Ryuujin Jakka and its a great leap to simply assume that it is.--Salubri (Talk)  16:48, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

I would assume that it is a technique that can be used by all Shinigami. Yamamato isn't the only character in the series to slice through a multiple-story high opponent. If it involved his Shikai then it could be attributed to his Zanpakuto, but it's just a high-speed vertical slash; nothing too fancy. Xilinoc (talk) 00:16, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Ashido's placement
Why is Ashido under Expert? He should be under Master. I mean he took down multiple Menos with ease with his sealed sword. He was even able to defeat elite Ajuchas class which are supposedly as strong as captains without unsealing his weapon.(Evilpuppy (talk) 03:25, May 17, 2013 (UTC))
 * While Ashido has proven to be a capable opponent, because of his short appearance he hasn't displayed extensive enough skill to be considered for master level. There are more things to consider when determining swordsmanship level than just power alone.

Kiganjō
On his page Kiganjō's listed as a master, should he be added to this page? --Ginhikari (talk) 13:57, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * If he is, then he should be added.
 * Done and done.

why the * is yoruichi listed as an Expert?
why is Yoruichi listed as an expert? as far as i know, we have NEVER seen her use her zanpaktou. in fact, afaik, we haven't even seen her wearing it since she was a child, in some flashbacks. unless someone can prove that she's an expert, ill remove her from the list.. 772071 (talk) 18:07, July 29, 2015 (UTC)
 * We have her added on here because, as a former captain, it is to be assumed she must have at least expert level of skill with a sword. Otherwise she'd probably never be recommended for the captain test in the first place.
 * As Kami said, all captains are at least moderately proficient with a sword - even Mayuri, the science-based combatant, can hold his own with his Zanpakutō alone. That's pretty much a requirement to become a captain, alongside leadership skills, having a Bankai, and so on.--Xilinoc (talk) 23:05, July 29, 2015 (UTC)

Kanji Clarification and Kendo
Hi there, I'm new to the wiki, and I decided to reach out here to propose an edit, rather than jumping the gun and editing the page without Wiki Staff approval. I believe that it is important to note that the term "Zanjutsu", 斬術 does not literally translate to swordsmanship, but is of course translated and rendered as such for a lot of the translated Bleach media. The kanji Zan 斬 of course is the same Kanji in Zanpakutō 斬魄刀, the proper translation of Zan being "Kill". In the instance of Zanjutsu, Zan is an abbreviated term for Zanpakutō, and such, Zanjutsu refers to swordsmanship with a Zanpakutō. Within the Japanese language, Kenjutsu 剣術 is the general term for any sort of swordsmanship, and while the term has been used within the Japanese media, Zanjutsu is specifically used, since Shinigami use Zanpakutō, which are not conventional/regular swords. In addition to this, Swordsmanship is a methodology and martial art, not a style. There are styles of swordsmanship, and several forms and variations of swordsmanship, however swordsmanship in itself is a fighting methodology, not a fighting style. Thus Zanjutsu is a term which refers to the martial art of wielding the Zanpakutō, with various styles and methodologies varying between practitioners. Considering how Arrancar and Shinigami respectively utilize Zanpakutō, and how Zanjutsu is a general term for swordsmanship with the aforementioned type of sword, it is inappropriate to say that Zanjutsu is a style, or that it is only practiced by Shinigami. As noted within the manga citation, Sosuke Aizen makes note that Zanjutsu is one of the four basic arts/methodologies practiced by the Shinigami, however he does not state, nor does the series state that Zanjutsu is specific only to Shinigami, as again, it is a general term.

In addition to this, Kendo is not Zanjutsu. While Kendo can technically be applied to the Zanpakutō, it is a real-world martial art that is its own methodology, Kendo is not a general term for swordsmanship. It has body mechanics and rules that specific to it, and was birthed in its current form by the Japanese government during the late 19th, and early 20th centuries. It is practiced for self-development and athleticism in Japanese schools, as such we see it throughout the series being practiced at Karakura Highschool. There are souls such as Retsu Unohana, as specified by the Bleach Official Character Book Souls, and Ikkaku Madarame in the anime, who are stated and shown to be practitioners of Kendo. However, despite being practitioners of Kendo, this does not mean that Kendo is Zanjutsu. I propose that Kendo should be its own separate page, with listed practitioners, and information included regarding its practice at Karakura Highschool, especially in consideration of episode 133 of the anime.

I believe that the page in its current state does not properly address the etymology of Zanjutsu or Kenjutsu as mentioned, and that there should be a redirection link for a separate page regarding Kendo. This would allow for proper conveyance of context and information, especially with the lack of addressing of the Karakura Kendo Club, despite there already being pages for characters such as Shinji Iijima.

Should I be allowed to edit the page, and/or create the Kendo page, I will be sure to properly utilize citations, and will follow the Wiki guidelines, which I have gone over.

Manicotti40 (talk) 14:04, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Translation?
Via my recent edit that was undone, I tried to search for "zanjutsu" on a dictionary like jisho (both in rohmaji and kanji), and it wasn't a viable term for the word "swordsmanship" unlike "kenjutsu" or "tachisuji". And the reason why I typed it as "Slashing Skills" was to parallel the translation for "Taijutsu" (Body Skill) on the Hakuda page. SneaselSawashiro (talk) 20:09, 1 March 2022 (UTC)


 * https://jisho.org/search/%E6%96%AC%E8%A1%93 Via here, it only mentions the individual kanji and not both of them together as a single term. SneaselSawashiro (talk) 20:10, 1 March 2022 (UTC)