Talk:Sōsuke Aizen/Archive 4

Kyoka Suigetsu
I think it's worth mentioning somewhere that in Bleach: The 3rd Phantom, Kyouka Suigetsu's fake ability (i.e. the ability Aizen told everyone it had before his reveal in the Soul Society Arc) is "creating illusions with diffused reflections from mist and water". For reference's sake, it can be found here.Grimmjow2 (talk) 20:56, April 12, 2011 (UTC)

It think it could be mentioned in "Appearances in other media" or on the page for that video game. Sode no shirayuki (talk) 21:09, April 12, 2011 (UTC)

Kyoka Suigetsus Ritual?
It is never said in Kyoka Suigetsus Shikai description what the "ritual" or "release" is... Maybe it should be explained? Ruffy 15:34, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * The ritual is simply the release of Kyōka Suigetsu, ie. when Aizen says "Shatter". Kai  -  Talk  16:28, May 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Then I think that should be emphasized on the page, instead of writing "ritual" all over it. "One needs to hear the word Shatter from Aizens mouth to succumb to the Zanpakuto's power" sounds more like it. Ruffy 17:46, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

It actually states it several times in the Powers and Abilities sections that once somebody sees him release his Zanpakutō that then they are hypnotised!! It actually goes into a lot of detail about even the length of Hypnosis!! SunXia  (Chat)  18:27, May 10, 2011 (UTC)

Aizen's race
Can he seriously be counted as a shinigami right now?

He was supposed to be something transcend,more than a shinigami or a hollow.

Even though the Hōgyoku seemed to 'not longer recognize Aizen as his master',it's still in Aizen and makes him to be immortal. Adi212 (talk) 07:05, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to call him. I say he is still a Shinigami, albeit an immortal one. It's hard to say what to call him; until a new race that he fits under pops up, I say leave him as a Shinigami, as although it's not perfect, it's unfortunately our best answer from a list of bad choices. Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk)  11:54, August 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * While I agree, we don't know what he is, he states many times that he has transcended the state of Shinigami and Hollows, which would mean that he is no longer a Shinigami, and therefore, his race according to the page is inaccurate. I'd put "Shinigami" for the race, and then put "Unknown" right under it, with the chapter he ascends in parenthesis. We do this when a character changes age too (keeping the previous age, then adding the new one with the chapter number in parenthesis), so it wouldn't be inconsistent. Ten Tailed Fox   (Talk with me) 12:04, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

We've already been through this; he transcended the normal limits of a Shinigami from the abilities bestowed upon him by the Hogyoku. His race did not change, "transcended being" is not a race, and even then, aside from his immortality, he lost all of his powers from the Hogyoku. We're not going to classify him as a different race. Arrancar109 (Talk)  15:27, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

Hōgyoku
If Hōgyoku rejected him as a master, should we count the implantation and transformations as former abilities? -- The Goblin   Talk   00:47, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Hōgyoku Implantation Section
Looking at "Unmasked", there's a section dedicated to the forms Aizen assumes after implanting the Hōgyoku, with each being described under their own individual title, which are as follows: I was thinking it might be best to restructure/rename the current "Hōgyoku Implantation" section to reflect this, given that it comes from an official source, but what do others think? Blackstar1 (talk) 16:26, May 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * - Aizen having implanted the Hōgyoku.
 * - Aizen's "chrysalis" stage.
 * - Aizen after shedding his "chrysalis" stage.
 * - Aizen after Gin's betreyal.
 * - Aizen's Hollow-like form.


 * Best to ask the Translation Corner for confirmation of this translation first.--

Opening Paragraph
So in the opening paragraph here we have "After waging war against the Soul Society with an army of Arrancar, Aizen was defeated by Ichigo Kurosaki and then sealed away by Kisuke Urahara". I don't know how regularly stuff like this is done here, but I was just thinking, isn't this too big a spoiler to be placed right on the beginning of the page? Someone still reading through that arc could come to the page and have that spoiled for them and such right off the bat. Should this be removed? -Minish  Link   14:49, June 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Our front page states that reading the content here will spoil stuff for you. We just list the facts, read at your own risk.--
 * Alright. -Minish  Link   17:30, June 11, 2012 (UTC)

Appearance
In the appearance paragraph, it states that the only remaining change from his hogyoku transformation is his left eye, which remains purple with a white iris. This is incorrect. In both the anime and the manga, only his left eye his shown during his sentencing, which is clearly back to normal. Should this information be changed? --Thisdinner (talk) 08:28, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Iagree, looking at the pictures of him tied up to the chair, he is back to normal. I will make the change --SternRitterÄs (talk) 16:39, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Two Profile Pictures?
Is it possible that we could have Aizens page done the same way say Kenpachi is done where there are before and after pictures of when he changed his hair in the box? Since Aizen did have a important change in appearance. More important than most of the others really. Before defection, after defection in place of before timeskip, after timeskip. I think it would be a good idea, what do you think --SternRitterÄs (talk) 16:47, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * That type of change is only for significant changes via time skip. Aizen is not featured in this capacity. His time at defection was nothing more then removing his glasses and slicking back his hair. While its a change its a simple one that required no real change more then someone getting dressed up for prom or something.--

That could be said for changes in hair of Kenpachi, Rukia and so on but they get it? --SternRitterÄs (talk) 17:13, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * The switch template is for pre and post timeskip pictures. The template itself is even coded to say pre timeskip and post timeskip. Aizen's change in appearance is not pre and post timeskip.--

That can be solved just by making a new template. You only have to paste the code to a new one and change timeskip for betrayal. --SternRitterÄs (talk) 17:22, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Or this issue can be solved by you listening to what Salubri and I have already said, the template was designed to show timeskip changes and the change in the animation. Aizen did not have a timeskip change nor did his animation change.--

"Reception" Section
Is it really necessary to have that section about how Aizen is praised and criticized by the media? It's definitely out of universe in the article and, from how I am looking at it, also unneeded. If no one has any arguments about it, then I'll remove it.


 * It is one of only few direct critiques of a character, it is factual and there is plenty of stuff that is not in universe on articles. This is listed appropriately in its own section just like appearance in other media which also not in universe content. That concept only is concerned with the rest of the article. Removing confirmed criticism would be like censoring.--


 * Hmm, alright. But then should it be added for some of the other characters, not all, just a few? This article is the only one with this kind of section.

Intellect
We have been through this a hundred times before but having a discussion with Arrancar109 recently, we feel it should be re-opened. Aizen is currently listed as just High Intellect. It would be more appropriate to raise him to genius level. Quoting from our own Manual of Style, "As far as Intellect the terms Genius/Scientist and Inventor are all synonymous with each other as far as being represented as the highest level of attained or potential intellect and knowledge". As we know, Aizen was a Scientist and Inventor. He created a Hogyoku of his own before Urahara had even created his, he has multiple listings of inventions he created and to top it off, he created an Arrancar whose sole purpose was to seal the abilities of Yamamoto. This required him to know how to target one specific person. He has clearly displayed a level of intellect equal to if not greater than Mayuri, who is listed as a genius. I don't see how we only have Aizen listed as High.--

As listed, Aizen has done some inventions that are noteworthy of being on a Genius-level intellect. Like God pointed out, he arrived at the conclusion of the Hogyoku and created one of his own even before Urahara did, created a tool that can seal Arrancar away in a separate dimension, created Metastacia, who could fuse with Shinigami after Aizen experimented on him, and altered Wonderweiss to the point where he could seal Yamamoto's Zanpakuto, the most powerful Zanpakuto to ever exist. So yeah, even if you do take out his ability to strategize, he still has the scientific mind required to create some powerful tools and modify other beings to perform specific unique unprecedented functions. Arrancar109 (Talk)  19:02, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

So why were the edits i made to his intellect a while back, taken down? Aizen is a manipulator, a tactician and an inventor...i believe the only thing that takes people aback is that unlike Urahara or Mayuri, he was never directly stated as either a inventor or a genius, which i see as wrong because we should also based the data by his actions, which show he is a genius level individual with a fair share of powerful creations to his name. The fact that it was never said out loud shoudn't de-value his actions...Darksusanoo (talk) 19:18, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * The reason they were taken down is you failed to discuss them. If you had read our policies, you would know that changes to power levels must be discussed and agreed on first.--

Now another issue...as Aizen's intellect section is divided to show his abilities as a tactician and as a manipulator, shouldn't it have another one as a master scientist or inventor? The experiments he conducted on Hollows, Arrancar, Shinigami and Vizard, plus his creation of things such as the Caja Negacion and the Hogyoku, should serve as a testament to that. Darksusanoo (talk) 20:56, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

Where is Kyoka suigetsu?
There is a lot of missing content about Kyoka suigetsu. The only thing that is written is that the hogyoku destroyed it. I think we should describe its traits and powers even though it doesn't exist anymore.
 * Click the show button on Former Powers and Abilities.--

Space-Time Manipulation Abilities?
Shouldn't it be mentioned under Aizen's abilities that he has the power to manipulate time?--JustaNobody (talk) 02:33, November 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * He has no such ability, Juhabach simply said that Aizen distorted his sense of time, in other words, Aizen made him think less time had passes than had actually passed, thats not space time manipulation, that is just Aizen doing his usual mind games.--

Missing on category page
Shouldn't Aizen be in the Category:Genius Intellects page? He's missing there and the classification is missing at the Category link at the bottom of his page.Mercutio126 (talk) 00:52, December 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Checked his powers and you are correct so I have added this category!! Thanks!!

Descorrer
We should add the Descorrer to Aizen's power section like Tosen's. He was seen entering the living world through it for the Fake Karakura Town battle. Steveo920, 17:21, January 5, 2013

Transcendent Powers
Can we add a page with a list of transcendent powers? It would just explain about the differences between normal beings and transcendent entities and have a list of transcendent powers like fragor, ultra fragor, teleportation, immortal regeneration, and mugetsu. I guess I put this here because it would relate to Aizen.
 * First of all, please remember to sign your posts. This can be done by adding ~ to the end of your posts or clicking the signature button at the top of the page. Secondly, since Aizen is the only transcendent being thus far, we don't know if those powers are common among all transcendent beings and whatnot, so we can't make a page about them. Hope that helps.--Xilinoc (talk) 00:21, May 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually his powers are already listed under former abilities section. Secondly he is not trancedental, its called poetic license. Aizen constantly uses grandiose language to make himself or what he says sound more important. There is nothing to corroborate his claims besides his own views. There is nothing to state such a state of being exists in the bleach universe.--

Question
How can we add Ichigo's observation of Aizen to his Personality after their battle? superlogan7437 (talk) 17:31, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Ichigo can see into his opponent's heart when they cross blades, and he saw loneliness in Aizen's. We do the same for characters like White when other comment on their personality.--Xilinoc (talk) 18:49, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

Reception
Alright, time to get this one settled. Is it really necessary to have a section on Aizen's page dedicated to what IGN said about him? He's the only character on the wiki with one, and it's not hard to find what people think about characters on, say, Wikipedia. But my biggest issue with it lies in the fact that it's really, really uncharacteristic for any page on this wiki to have a section on an official character page about what people think about said character; I'm certain that this goes against our policies of keeping everything in-universe and not allowing fan opinions into articles, and I'm very sure that people don't need IGN's input to form their own opinions. As such, I propose that we just get rid of the damn thing.--Xilinoc (talk) 20:04, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I've been wondering that for the longest time, and I'm still puzzled as to how it sneaked its way onto our article as well. Of course, in its earliest days, I think this wiki had copied & pasted some things from Wikipedia, so that would be the only explanation as to how. In any event, I'm all for getting rid of the section altogether as well. Arrancar109 (Talk)  20:09, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

It isn't really necessary for a character. 20:10, August 31, 2014 (UTC)


 * After some searching, I figured out what happened. A user by the name of Shinitenshi added it as Trivia, but then Arrancar(!) changed the section to Reception after deciding to keep it there. So yeah, that's how it happened.--Xilinoc (talk) 21:07, August 31, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, that's just embarrassing. Nonetheless, my fault. I think I should remove it then. <font color="teal" size="2px">Arrancar109 <font color="teal" size="1px">(Talk)  21:27, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

He still has Kyōka Suigetsu
We see it, Aizen's Zanpakutō has reappeared, fused to his hand once again. So it's no longer a "Former Powers and Abilities" section, right? Yatanogarasu (talk) 21:06, July 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Few points against this. 1. Where did Aizen get a zanpakuto within a minute of getting out of the chair 2. Assuming he got one how did he imprint on it within a minute. The most glaring reasoning here is that the majority of the chapter is nothing more then an illusion. He doesnt seem to retain a zanpakuto but a modified version of his previous illusion power. Yhwach didnt fight renji or ichigo the entire fight it was Aizen. Thus yhwach didnt get attacked by ichigo until the last page. There is virtually no proof that kyoka suigetsu is even real. Aizen has apparently internalized his power though its not on the same as level that his zanpakuto had. Finally confirming the line that he doesnt need it anymore.--


 * Well, Yhwach did call it Kyōka Suigetsu, and Zanpakutō (Shikai, at least) does regenerate from damage, so even when completely destroyed, it had an entire year and half to regenerate. Yatanogarasu (talk) 00:21, July 23, 2016 (UTC)


 * Thats if it breaks not if it disintegrates out of existence. More importantly given the situation and whats happening im not sure its appearance matters. Also Yhwach called alot of people by name him knowing something name means little in this scenario he didnt even know he was being affected by the illusions.--


 * So is it to say he now possesses the ability to use Kanzen Saimin without Kyōka Suigetsu? Yatanogarasu (talk) 23:09, July 23, 2016 (UTC)


 * I dont believe that it works the same way. Just simply a form of illusion over his actual form. He doesnt seem to be able to control what is seen nor does he seem to know what the opponent sees.--


 * Sorry, but that makes very little sense. Yhwach confirms the blade itself as Kyoka Suigetsu. That's irrefutable, one. Two, Aizen, after fusing with the Hogyoku only speculates that his sword was no longer needed. Yet years later the sword spawns again attached to his arm. No coincidence then that Aizen starts stirring up illusions again. It's not some lesser form of his old ability, it's the very same one we've been seeing all series. It's speculative for you to say otherwise. --Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 18:05, July 24, 2016 (UTC)


 * At different points in the chapter, Yhwach also believes he is fighting both Renji and Ichigo, and specifically thinks he's breaking Tensa Zangetsu yet again (that being one of his recurring goals for an unexplained reason). Yet, we know that those are also illusions brought on by Aizen, and Tensa Zangetsu shattering means showing an illusion of a cracked Kyōka Suigetsu is not out of the question. The fact remains that over 250 chapters ago, Aizen outright said that the Hōgyoku had decided he no longer needed his Zanpakutō, as was evidenced by it crumbling away in his hands. The burden of proof is on you as to how, exactly, he regained his Zanpakutō and its power after apparently losing it forever.--Xilinoc (talk) 19:57, July 24, 2016 (UTC)


 * Well, we can't say he lost it forever, since Metastacia destroyed Kaien's Zanpakutō (completely disintegrated just like Kyōka Suigetsu), but after Aaroniero devoured Metastacia's corpse (fused with Kaien), he was able to bring out Nejibana (after it was destroyed). This means even completely destroyed Zanpakutō can regenerate from nothingness as long as it is not the Bankai that is destroyed. Yatanogarasu (talk) 21:49, July 25, 2016 (UTC)

@Xilinoc, You and Salubri seem to be stuck on that single phrase, that even Aizen could only speculate himself. All the while, you both are ignoring the context around that very statement.


 * I sooo wish I had a raw scan, but the popular translations will have to do: Aizen upon surviving Ichigo's final attack (Chapter 421 pages 10-13) believes himself to have been evolving further after surviving the attack, pointing out that the Hogyoku deems he has no need of his need of his Zanpakuto anymore. Ichigo then deduces that Aizen and his zanpakuto have indeed fused together (powers and all).

Please tell me how is it that you both have completely ignored this statement?

An additional point I'd like to make is that, regardless of what Aizen says outright about his powers, it's usually filled with hubris, sarcasm, or both. He's proven himself wrong about the Hogyoku's intentions and he often mocks his opponents. That indicates that you both are taking those quotes a little to literally: "Interesting, you see Ichigo..." and "The Hogyoku has decided I have no need...." --Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 01:22, July 26, 2016 (UTC)