Talk:Zanjutsu

kendo
Would you add kendo as a technique, seeing as it's a clear and separate skill Kenpachi learned from Yamamoto? Benihime101 (talk) 07:55, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to remove Arrancar
We don't have Arrancar in either the Hoho and Hakuda page and so I don't see why we have them in the "Zanjutsu" page. I mean, I understand that Arrancar have their own Hoho equivalent - Sonido and we determine that Hakuda wasn't just "hand-to-hand combat" but a specific style of hand-to-hand combat used by Shinigami. But surely the same reasoning applies to Zanjutsu! For one, most of the Shinigami on this page have had formal training in Zanjutsu though either the Shinigami Academy and/or privately. Many of them know specific philosophies like Kendo. How can we compared people with that level of training to Arrancar, who seem to be more "instinctive" fighters as opposed to trained fighters. More importantly, "Zanjutsu", like Hoho and Hakuda, was specifically identified as a Shinigami skill. NOT a general term applicable to anyone who uses Zanpakuto. So I believe the Arrancar should be removed to their own page. Tinni  (Talk)  05:33, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Quoting from the page itself, "While others may maintain any level of skill in swordsmanship Zanjutsu is exclusive to Shinigami." So yeah, there is no reason Arrancar should be on here--God (Pray)  05:38, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

This discussion seems to have bleed into the Jinzen discussion below but the consensus is that Arrancar do not belong in this article. Great! I'll remove them and fix the tables while I am at it as well. Tinni  (Talk)  16:08, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Jinzen
Related to my proposal to remove Arrancar from this page, I think the Jinzen and really much of the "Zanpakutō Control" section should be part of this page and not the Zanpakutō page. Isshin makes it clear the Jinzen was a technique that was researched and developed as part of Shinigami training regime, which means that it is part of the "swordsmanship philosophy" taught to Shinigami. I.e. it is part of the Zanjutsu training and a Zanjutsu technique. A non-combat technique certainly but it is still something that belong here, in my opinion. Tinni  (Talk)  05:37, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

I have to disagree on this one. Jinzen and the other things mentioned in the Zanpakutō control section relate to interaction with the spirit of one's Zanpakutō. Zanjutsu is combat with a sword. I feel the aforementioned things relate much more to the Zanpakutō page and not Zanjutsu--God (Pray)  05:42, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

While Jinzen can be considered a Zanjutsu technique, so can Shikai and Bankai. However, the three are more closely related the spirit of the Zanpakuto than the actual combat style of a particular Shinigami, so I personally think it's fine where it is. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  06:05, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

I will back this proposal, much like Hakuda and Shunpo the ability to use swordsmanship and the actual specific form of combat known as Zanjutsu are different. The Arrancar should be removed from the page. Also Jinzen as a technique and the Zanpakuto control section should be moved to Zanjutsu. Its erroneous to say that Shikai and bankai are techniques when they are in fact forms Zanpakuto take, forms they take regardless of the degree of skill one has with fighting with them (on a particular basis of course, the opposite is more accurate). --Salubri (Talk)  13:55, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Hm. I looked over the page again and it indeed mentioned Shikai and Bankai to begin with, which I had admittedly forgotten. Zanjutsu is the art of using the Zanpakuto's powers in addition to using the sword itself as a weapon, I suppose any techniques/forms related to it could be mentioned on this page. My only issue is how the information should be properly divided between this page and the Zanpakuto article, lest some of the information is repeated, since it is relevant to both articles. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  15:10, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

This is simple actual swordsmanship is designed around techniques combative or otherwise used by the swordsman. The portion in the paragraph about the shikai and bankai can be removed not sure why its there now that i read it. The arracnar or anything pertaining to them can be removed and the training section on the zanpakuto page can be moved to zanjutsu. --Salubri (Talk)  15:36, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

Since it seems that we are generally in agreement that the Arrancar should be removed. I'll remove them now. We can keep thinking about what from the Zanpakuto page should be moved to this article. Tinni  (Talk)  16:08, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

While removing the Arrancar and Arrancar related stuff, I removed that entire following section as its totally and utterly wrong! This is not the definition of Zanjutsu! I mean, Zanjutsu is taught using wooden swords for crying out loud! It does NOT involve learning a Zanpakuto's special abilities as that can only be taught by the Zanpakuto itself. What it teaches is actual swordsmanship techniques that can be used with any swords AND special techniques that'll help the Shinigami commune with their Zanpakuto better - i.e. Jinzen. Tinni  (Talk)  16:19, January 2, 2011 (UTC)

'As the name suggests, it involves using a Zanpakutō'' and its various special abilities to attack an opponent. In addition to its basic form, each Zanpakutō has two enhanced forms: and, which change the sword's form to unlock its potential and that of its user.'''

Nadegiri
When and where it got mentioned that Nadegiri is a Zanjutsu technique and not a technique of Ryuujin Jakka alone? And I think this information should be mentioned as a reference in the article. Sanji Taichou (talk) 15:19, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

When and where is it mentioned that it is a technique of Ryuujin Jakka alone? It isn't in fact in both manga and anime you cannot even make that assumption that is. To date Ryuujin Jakka has not exhibited any attacks unique to it other then fire-based ones. Kendo would be considered a swordsmanship technique as well. Its not unique to kenpachi its a sword fighting style with many attacks styles under it, in fact the swing he used against nnorita has been recently stated and regardless that is not unique to him. Nadegiri is clearly depicted as nothing more then a simple sword slash. So the the question would be as the one bringing up the topic by what proof would there be reason to question its placement. Any look at this sites policies would clearly inform that we go by what is stated and clearly depicted. This site has many references and its in fact required to be referenced to be in the article. Nadegiri is referenced as having taken place it needs no more confirmation then to state that its a sword attack other then clearly seeing it take place, there is no proof of its uniqueness in relation to Ryuujin Jakka and its a great leap to simply assume that it is.--Salubri (Talk)  16:48, June 22, 2011 (UTC)

I would assume that it is a technique that can be used by all Shinigami. Yamamato isn't the only character in the series to slice through a multiple-story high opponent. If it involved his Shikai then it could be attributed to his Zanpakuto, but it's just a high-speed vertical slash; nothing too fancy. Xilinoc (talk) 00:16, November 18, 2012 (UTC)

Ashido's placement
Why is Ashido under Expert? He should be under Master. I mean he took down multiple Menos with ease with his sealed sword. He was even able to defeat elite Ajuchas class which are supposedly as strong as captains without unsealing his weapon.(Evilpuppy (talk) 03:25, May 17, 2013 (UTC))
 * While Ashido has proven to be a capable opponent, because of his short appearance he hasn't displayed extensive enough skill to be considered for master level. There are more things to consider when determining swordsmanship level than just power alone.

Kiganjō
On his page Kiganjō's listed as a master, should he be added to this page? --Ginhikari (talk) 13:57, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * If he is, then he should be added.
 * Done and done.