Talk:Espada/Archive 1

Yammy's Number
Okay, I've heard a lot of variation on Yammy's title, but has he ever actually said it? If not, we can't say that he is the "Diez Espada" (which is "ten", not "tenth") or anything else. Can anyone confirm his title? LapisScarab 03:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

In this Dailymotion Vostfr Video, we somehow hear, at ~0:50 :

"Taichô of the 10th Division, Hitsugaya Tôshiro !"

"How Fun ! I'm also a 10...Arrancar Dies(z?), Yammy !"(That we can also translate by "Arrancar number 10, Yammy !", but without this translation change, it doesn't fit with others's presentations)

Edit to Under : No problem ^^

Mili-Cien


 * Cool. I saw that episode before, but I must have missed that line. Thanks! LapisScarab 21:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, just re-watched it. I missed the "Dies Espada" part because the subs didn't have it (usually it actually says "Sexta Espada", etc. instead of "10th Espada"). LapisScarab 00:21, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I now have a sound file to confirm this one(I have a cut from Episode 138), but I can't upload this to the Wiki's data, and I can't make a preview about it. Help me please? --Kroduz 13:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Privaron Espada
The chart of "Former Espada" lists the Privaron Espada, who should be in a seperate chart. It should only have Luppi and Neliel, as neither of them became Privaron Espada.

Also, the same chart lists Dordonii, Cirucci, and Gantenbainne specifically as the former 3rd, 5th, and 7th Espada. While possible, that has not been even remotely confirmed and should not be there.


 * I somewhat fixed that, but I will admit it: we should make a table for the Privaron Espada section as well. But I don't know how to do it, so I'll leave it in someone else's hands. However, I ask that whoever does it to make sure you put their 3-digit Privaron Espada number, NOT what number you might think they had. Arrancar109 05:00, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Image
Since the caption of the espada image was changed to 290px, i think we should upload a higher size image coz the quality looks pretty bad Maul day 02:50, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

espada counterparts
why was counterparts removed ?

I am not so sure, but my guess is as good as any: this wiki is supposed to supply accurate information derived from the manga/anime/databooks and whatnot. That counterpart section was all based on fan speculation, and had no real relevance to the series because those similarities were never mentioned. Mohrpheus 20:56, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Aspects of Death
I deleted the aspect of death section as it showed exactly the same information shown on the Espada Chart. Just to clear it up so no one thinks I'm vandalizing or anything. Oathkeeper of oblivion 16:11, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Doubles
I've only noticed that all of the espada (the current, nel, luppi and the privaron) have double letters in their names. I think Kubo intentionally did this and I also think that's why he put up Harribel and Starrk's name page. I've already put this in the trivia section. Just change it if you disagree.--Agate genbu 02:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Released State
I had recently put the fact in the trivia section that since Starrk's release, all of the espada have released, only for it to be deleted. If this was because it counted as a spoiler, then shouldn't the espada's deceased members be deleted, too, as spoilers?--Black Artist 00:26, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Why? It has been ages since the last time that an Espada died, spoilers only "spoil" things before they become broadly available. The Seaweed Ambassador 01:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Anyone who could get on this wikia and read english can access the many scan websites and read the manga. It is "broadly available".--Black Artist 22:30, 14 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the Seaweed Ambassador just meant that it would be odd if that was the reason for the fact's deletion, for the reasons you stated. Seeing as how it's not speculation and is fact that anyone could look up, I would imagine it'd be fine to add it back into the page. Twocents 22:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Trivia
In the trivia section where it mentions who has met the most Espada shouldn't Yasutora Sado be mentioned, because he has encountered Yammy (twice), Ulquiorra, Gantenbainne, Nel, and Nnoitra. King Of The Kill 00:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC) While I'm at it, hasn't Orihime encountered 6 Espada already; Yammy, Ulquiorra, Luppi, Grimmjow, Nnoitra, and Starrk. King Of The Kill 21:32, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * actual orihime has met all the espada, when she restored grimjaws arm Fawcettp 01:44, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe the only Espada that were in the room were Grimmjow, Luppi, Yammy, and Ulquiorra; At least that's how it appears in both the manga and anime. King Of The Kill 01:59, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Hell
I think its worth mentioning that, so far, no Espada, Numeros, or Fraccion have gone to hell. Perhaps this could be put in the trivia section? Grimmjow2 19:26, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Menos class are groups of hollow souls, I don't even know how that'd work. ZeroSD 00:04, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Can the gates to hell even appear outside the world of the living?--Licourtrix 05:31, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

Heh, who knows? But it didn't say it can ONLY open in the World of the Living. So should this neat piece of trivia be added?Grimmjow2 20:38, November 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * No, we have been trying to cut down on the amount of trivia, as most of it was junk. I don't think this is any better than most of what was removed. 22:13, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah a lot of the previous trivia was junk. But this is a valuable one. Everyone thinks the Espada (and Hollows in general) are evil, so the fact that none of them has gone to Hell is the perfect irony, but in the end its your choice Yyp :)Grimmjow2 21:41, November 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Espada are evil? They are certainly not pure goodness, but they are not evil. Starrk, Harribel, Nelliel, Dordonii & Gantanbainne all come across as reasonably good guys, just on the wrong side. Ulquiorra a bit too. Nnoitra, Grimmjow, AA, SAG, Yammy & Zommari are bad guys and have serious character flaws, but I wouldn't call them evil. 21:54, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't call them evil, but some of the more casual readers might (I encourage thinking outside the box when it comes to good and evil). I think that by including this fact, we can throw a curve ball at some readers and make them re-think the boundaries of good and evil in Bleach (well after I heard Zommari's rant I began thinking about who really is the bad guy, Hoollow or Shinigami?)Grimmjow2 10:22, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Hell no. Seriously, NO! Absolutely, totally NO! If you want to make a point about this sort of speculative rubbish to make the reader "think" go make a blog post. Wiki articles are designed to present the bare facts. They are not essays to get the thinking cap going. Hell is for souls who have committed sins before becoming hollows. It doesn't matter how many sins a hollow commits, the Shinigami Zanpakuto can wash it away and send the original soul to Soul Society. However, we don't even know if the ID of a menos is a new ID born during the menos evolution process or if it is an ID retained from an original plus. We don't even know what happens to Menos when they are destroyed. Do the souls contained within them go to Soul Society or do they just scatter into spirit particles. We don't know and as we don't know anything, making a statement like "not going to hell" is gross, GROSS speculation. Going to hell, going to Soul Society are for pulse and ordinary hollows. It is clear menos are different and arrancar different still. Until we learn more it is speculation and it is not "fact" because that implies that we know for certain Arrancar CAN go to hell. So I repeat, absolutely not!!!! Tinni 10:38, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

PS. Zommari is a moron and the Shinigami are good guys. I have already had to deal with this rubbish on Zommari's article and I would thank you to keep such things confined to blogs. Tinni 10:38, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Trivia - release states
"Baraggan Luisenbarn, Starrk and Yammy Rialgo are the only Espada that have not taken the form of an animal in their released state."

Should Starrk still be included in that list? Since Los Lobos means "The Wolves" or "Wolf Pack" and Starrk has been seen using powers that exemplify that, it seems inaccurate to say he doesn't take the form of an animal. Or, if the trivia means that they don't really look like an animal, then Harribel should be included on that list, since she doesn't look like a shark, and the second half of the trivia should be removed, since it removes Szayel and Zommari on that list not because they look like animals, but because their powers resemble animals' powers. (The second half of the trivia being: "Szayel Aporro Granz and Zommari Leroux seemed as though they had this in common, but upon further inspection it was found their powers resemble that of a helminth or parasitic worm and sea urchin.") Twocents 17:26, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

As no one said otherwise, and especially based on the just-released chapter where he says, "Those wolves are both Starrk and Lilynette," (Chapter 373, page 16) thus supporting my opinion that he does take the form of an animal, I removed his name from that list of trivia. Twocents 18:29, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

i dont think so, cause it says "taken the form of an animal". since starrk just looks like a human and not a wolve i think its correct to say that starrk is one of the three. just because one of his techniques looks like a wolve doesnt mean that his form is a wolve. Amaresuke 18:15, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Its wolf, and if they're a part of him then he does take the form of a wolf...just like some of the other hollows like numb chandelier and the one that attacked chad when he had the parakeet had detachable parts of themselves.--Licourtrix 01:29, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Current/Former
Shouldn't we move all the deceased "current" Espada to former since their no longer alive and therefore no longer members. Orochidayu 18:52, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's much point in doing that right now. I think we should wait until there are new Espada to replace them. For all we know, there may never be any more Espada to replace the current ones, so it would not be worth moving them until there is a reason to. 18:59, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, i agree, The page refers to the Espada as a whole, not each individual member. It could causes confusion to newer readers, and sort ruin the look of the page.--Black Artist 23:20, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Starrk and Harribel's Status
Let me make this absolutely clearly. Any and all changes to the status of Starrk or Harribel will be reverted on sight unless something happens in chapters yet to be released that says they are alive. Just because we didn't see their bodies doesn't mean anything. We saw the extent of Starrk's injuries, saw his dramatic end of life flash back. For Harribel we have Aizen saying he won't let Harribel swing her sword at him again, stunned expression from Hitsugaya, Lisa and Hiyori and of course Mashiro's words. That's enough to list them as dead. This is not up for discussion and if you want to discuss, take it to the forums: Forum:Starrk_and_Harribel. Thank you. Tinni 01:00, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Spanish words, singular and plural
The following is not correct: "In the English anime and manga, the Espada as a group are referred to as Espadas, despite Espada already being plural. The dub also did this with Arrancar being made to Arrancars."

'Espada' means 'sword' in spanish, while 'espadas' is the plural form of 'espada', that is 'swords'. A 'espada' is just a single sword. 'Arrancar' is a verb meaning remove something from a place where it is attached. Something that has been removed this way is said to have been 'arrancado'. Should we use 'arrancar' as a noun (as in the manga) the plural form should be named as 'arrancares' because spanish creates plural adding a single 's' when final letter is a vowel, and 'es' if a consonant. --PsiLAN 07:19, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * You have to remember that they have a Japanese meaning as well as Spanish. It is this attempt to give Arrancar names etc dual meanings that causes much of the "bad Spanish" we see in Bleach. The Spanish thing is a secondary theme to make them seem more exotic. The primary audience is Japanese, who would tend to take the Japanese meaning as being the main one. And as a result, any Spanish used has to make perfect sense in Japanese first & foremost - the Spanish is secondary to that. 09:50, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Aye, that was just an aclaration from a point made in the article. Author got all the right to name his characters as he wish, of course ^_^

In fact, author is correct when using Espadas as the plural of Espada, and not as the article says: "the Espada as a group are referred to as Espadas, despite Espada already being plural". Italic marks what is wrong in the article. I just wanted to explain that instead of removing the wrong phrase from the article without explanation. --PsiLAN 10:08, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

Point taken. Will remove inaccurate trivia. Tinni 10:17, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * trivia removed. Tinni 10:19, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

Trivia clean-up
As part of the ongoing effort to clean up the trivia sections, I think the following is junk and have thus removed it. Please state your case if you think there is anything here worth keeping. Bear in mind that trivia are supposed to be no more than 2 lines. 13:24, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

"Privaron Espada" literally means "they deprived the swords''" in Spanish. "They" could refer to Aizen and the current Espada.''
 * Already mentioned in the article, therefore should not be in the trivia. 2nd part is speculation.

''The tattoos indicating the Espada's position doesn't seem to be permanent. Example: During a flashback, Nnoitra had his position as the 8th Espada tattooed on his tongue. However, when he revealed his current position as the 5th Espada to Ichigo, the number 5 has replaced the previous number 8. This might be possible as Aizen is constantly artificially creating Arrancar to meet higher standards, and this will be convenient for him to demote current Espada if those tattoos can be erased. It is likely that the Privaron Espada have had the tattoos of their former ranks erased. Nel is an exception, retaining her tattoo despite not being an Espada, as she was not demoted, and was instead ambushed by Nnoitra and Szayel. However, it is unknown whether she retains it in her child form. Another possible exception is Grimmjow, whose tattoo seems to have been physically removed from his back.''
 * I thought of trimming it to "The tattoos indicating the Espada's position doesn't seem to be permanent.", but that's not even worth noting.

Baraggan, Zommari and Szayel are the only Espada who have not revealed their tattoos.

Baraggan, Harribel, Zommari, Szayel, and Aaroniero are the Espada who have not revealed their Hollow holes.
 * Not worthwhile - most of them never had their clothes cut open to reveal anything. It is not an important detail. 2nd point: That's half of them.

Baraggan Luisenbarn and possibly Yammy Rialgo are the only Espada that have not'' taken the form of an animal in their released state. Szayel Aporro Granz and Zommari Leroux seemed as though they had this in common, but upon further inspection it was found their powers resemble that of a helminth or parasitic worm and sea urchin.''
 * Speculation & overly long.

''Many of the Espada seem to have a specific skill that they proclaim are best at. Some examples are that Nnoitra claims to have the strongest Hierro, Zommari boasts of having the fastest Sonído as well as having a variation of Sonído, Szayel is highly intelligent, Aaroniero is the only one with infinite evolutionary potential, Ulquiorra has high-speed regeneration, Baraggan's aspect of death is the most powerful, Starrk is the most skilled Espada in firing Cero, and Yammy says he is the only Espada to reach full strength when he releases his Zanpakutō.''
 * Too long, speculative, and clutching at straws towards the end.

''No Bleach protagonist has ever met all the Espada. The character who has made contact with the most Espada is Orihime Inoue, who has encountered (in chronological order) Yammy Rialgo, Ulquiorra Cifer, Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez, Luppi, Nnoitra Jiruga, and Coyote Starrk. That makes a total of six. (Seven if counting Nelliel Tu Oderschvank.) Ichigo has met five (seven if the time he saw Baraggan and Harribel along with Starrk in an Arrancar Reasearch segment is counted, though Harribel did see Ichigo twice in the actual story, despite they never encountered each other directly), and Rukia, Hitsugaya, Uryū, and Urahara have met three.''
 * How is this important. Also it is way too long. No need to list everything in there.

''None of the top three Espada's Zanpakutō with their powers sealed in them have the usual katana shape. Harribel's is hollow, Baraggan's is an axe, and Starrk's is Lilynette, though he also has a katana resembling a Zanpakutō. In addition, Nnoitra has his Zanpakuto sealed as a large scythe-like weapon and Aaroniero's is a deformed, tentacled arm.''
 * Once again, that's half of the Espada - it ceases to be unusual when half of them are like that.

''The top five Espada all use a weapon while in their Resurrección. Coyote Starrk uses a pair of guns and swords, Baraggan Luisenbarn uses a double-headed axe, Tia Harribel uses a pata-like weapon shaped like a shark tooth, Ulquiorra Cifer uses a white "spike-blade" and Nnoitra Jiruga uses six scythes. Also Nelliel Tu Oderschvank, the former 3rd Espada, uses a lance in her Resurrección.''
 * Shortened to "The top five Espada all use a weapon while in their Resurrección." as there is no need to list them all. It was too long. I'm not sure I should even leave the shortened version in.

Baraggan, Zommari, Szayel, and Aaroniero are the Espada who have not been seen using Cero.
 * Firstly, Luppi falls into this as well. Again, that is half of them, and therefore it is not unusual.

''Ulquiorra Cifer and Szayel Aporro Granz are the only Espada so far to beat their respective opponent(s). However, Szayel was killed by Mayuri Kurotsuchi after beating his opponents and Ulquiorra was later killed by Hollow Ichigo.''
 * I call that junk.

All of the current Espada have the letter "r" in their first and/or last names.
 * Barragan's name has recently been changed to Baraggan, voiding this statement.

Dordonii Alessandro Del Socacchio and Cirucci Thunderwitch
Let's stop beating around the bush here. The chances of either of those two to be alive is zero. It was heavily implied that they were killed by Exequias and it's been a long time since either of them were even mentioned. In addition, while going through the past chapters to find a reference, I noticed this panel http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/0/255/9. I don't think Apollo is the kind of person who would be doing an "extraction" in a manner that will keep Dordonii alive. So let's just drop this "presumbaly" business and called them deceased and change all pages that refer to them to deceased. When there really is a chance that the character may be alive, (e.g. Tesla, who we last saw severely injured and crying over Nnoitra but alive) I am all for them being listed as unconfirmed. But this case there is no chance and we should just stop pussy footing around the issue and just add the (Deceased) next to their name. Tinni 09:08, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, I just remembered that Apollo also said that he extracted Ishida's reitsu from Thunderwitch. So I am going to go ahead and changed them to deceased. This is "presumebly" and "unconfirmed" business has gone on long enough. Tinni 09:13, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Found the Thunderwitch reference http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/0/273/19. Apollo actually says she's dead. So it's settled. Tinni 09:24, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

Junk trivia clean-up take two
The following trivia has been deemed junk, if you disagree make your case but do not just add the trivia back. Tinni 22:14, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Most of the Espada's titles are the Spanish words for the ordinal of their rank in the feminine form (eg., Sexta means "Sixth" in Spanish). The confirmed exceptions are Tia Harribel, who refers to herself as the "Tres Espada"(Tres being neither feminine or masculine) rather than "Tercera," and Ulquiorra Cifer, who introduces himself as "Cuatro Espada" rather than "Cuarta", Nnoitra Jiruga's and Aaroniero Arruruerie's ranks are in the masculine form. Whether this is intentional or a mistake on the author's part is unknown.

''Seriously, who the hell cares about this Spanish language trivia? We get it, Kubo doesn't have good spanish skills. Drop it people, this is largely uninteresting to the majority of the people.''


 * Except for Luppi, all of the deceased Espada have died in their release forms, although Ulquiorra Cifer appeared to be slowly changing back just prior to his death.

I can consider leaving this in but it seems like a fairly uninteresting observation to me


 * The top five Espada all use a weapon while in their Resurrección.

I thought we were going to get rid of this kind of trivia and what weapon does Yammy use?


 * Baraggan is the only Espada (and Arrancar), so far, that died by his own powers.

No need for it to be a trivia


 * Harribel is the only Espada to be killed by Aizen himself.

Obvious from the table


 * All of the Espada, both current and former, have double letters in their names.

I know these are suppose to be trivia but this is taking the trivial to a new level


 * Luppi is the only Espada, current and former, not to have his full name revealed.

Again, seems uninteresting and of limited appeal to me

I actually think the one about Luppi being the only one to die not in Resurreccion is kinda good, but if no one else likes it I won't add it back. Minato (Talk)  22:17, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * i was starting to think: "strange there's a lot of useless stuff here why did they permit?" then i merged the redundant trivia thinking that it would help. now i know why wikipedia disapproves trivia Shiny-gami 22:31, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Minato, the one about Luppi seems intriguing, the rest are lackluster.Grimmjow2 22:50, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Intriguing... how is it intriguing? I mean, I admit, Luppi's death was special. He died not in the field of battle but while standing around having a meeting. So if you want an intriguing trivia, the trivia should be "Luppi is the only espada not to fall in the field of battle. Grimmjow killed him while they were having a meeting while they were both in their unreleased state." Tinni 23:03, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

that one about luppi ? but there are other arrancar who don't have a last name. unless you're counting only the espada Shiny-gami 23:05, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Not the one about last names. The one about him being the only Espada to die not in Resurreccion. Minato  (Talk)  23:07, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Yammy 10th/0th
I noticed that someone removed the fact that Yammy is not only the 0th Espada, but also the 10th, from the table. I apparently do not have permission to edit this page, so can someone with such permission please fix that? Thanks. 10X Kamehameha 05:42, May 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, it looks like that significant change was made (without consensus) by an admin, so it probably won't be changed back without some discussion explaining the issue. Since Yammy has a "10" on his body, and actually says that he goes from 10 to 0, I think it should be noted in the table that he currently occupies both the 10th position, and the 0th position, of the Espada. 10X Kamehameha 06:09, May 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * This had backing from the admins and it was removed by an admin based on a discussion on Yammy's article's talk page. In short, he refers to himself as Arrancar 10, not Espada 10. The wording was changed here and on his article to reflect what he actually said. 10:44, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Seems like a technicality considering how weak Yammay was pre-release, but if there was discussion earlier then I won't argue. 10X Kamehameha

The topic was brought up by me. We try and go with only what is specifically said on this site and since the words 10th espada have never been said in the series we made it reflect that--God (Pray)  19:55, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

The Meeting
Just a quick question, why is the picture of their gathering in black and white, when there's a colored one? Bathman 12:15, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

Most likely cause its been forgotten as a page and no one got around to updating it. Its fixed now. --Salubri (Talk)  12:19, June 16, 2010 (UTC)