Forum:Shinigami Character Discussion

Just because a whole bunch of discussion have popped up about various shinigami characters, I am merging. Just to be clearly, I am only merging topics that wasn't about much/were extremely small and not likely to be much longer. I did not merge character threads that were long/had a lot of discussion happening. Tinni 10:05, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Shiba Kaien
I've tried finding a forum regarding Kaien Shiba but didn't found any (please direct me to it if it exists). I just thought of this. Kaien Shiba was a prodigy, and has been a lieutenant at least from TBTP to until Rukia has joined the Gotei 13. My question is when did Gin and Tousen became captains? If they became captain before Rukia joined the 13th squad,  I find it odd that Kaien was not promoted to be a captain. Is he just so humble and was contended to be Ukitake's lieutenant? What are your other theories?--WinterFox 07:54, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Gin became captain the same time Byakuya did. Which was shortly before Rukia joined the Gotei 13 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/05/). Approximately 40 years before the start of the main storyline. The latter is based on Renji's comment that he and Rukia seperated about 40 years ago, when she was adopted in the Kuchiki family. That is also about the time the Kuchiki family pulled some strings and got Rukia into the Gotei 13 before she completed her course in the Shinigami Academy and exempted her from sitting the entrance exam.
 * Clearly Shiba Kaien never achieved bankai. Not everybody does prodigy or not. Case in point, Renji, Kira and Hinamori were all considered exceptional students and as students Kira and Hinamori were better then Renji in everything but swordsmanship. They even became vice-captains before Renji. But Renji achieved bankai while as far as we know neither Kira nor Hinamori have bankai. In addition, clearly some zanpakutos are harder to achieve bankai with then others. Neither Rangiku nor Yumichika have bankai and when they started training to achieve it because of the arrancar they complained about how hard it is to control their zanpakuto. So I don't see what the great mystery is. It has been made pretty clear that Bankai is something special and that is why under normal circumstances, out of 3000 shinigami in the Gotei 13 only 13 shinigami are usually capable of it. Tinni 09:53, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * I understand your point Tinni. But I read somewhere that Kaien was also a child prodigy, much like Gin.  I just find it odd that his skill didn't progress as what would expect of a child prodigy especially coming from a noble clan.--WinterFox 03:36, November 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * "child" prodigy? Kaien was a prodigy, having completed the six year shinigami academy course in two years. But a "child"? I can't agree with that. We don't know what Kaien looked like when he graduated. I.e. he might not have been a child. Also, I still don't see what you are getting at. Byakuya himself said that even amongst the noble, only a shinigami attains bankai every few generations. Meaning, not all nobles do achieve bankai. In addition, assuming he had the ability, Kaien would still have to actively train to achieve bankai. Perhaps he simply had no desire to do so. He is one of the few shinigami we know of who had a wife and a living family. Perhaps he simply had other priorities in his life other then achieving bankai. Whether they are capable of it or not, not everybody is interested in climbing the corporate ladder so to speak. Due to Ukitake's illness, Kaien was effectively running the 13th Division. In addition, during Kaien's time, Soul Society was not aware of facing any greater threat then what they usually face. Which is different from now, being in a state of open war has prompted both Yumichika and Rangiku to start bankai training. So Kaien had no motivation to achieve bankai. He already had all the powers of being a captain without having any of the responsibility, seeing as Ukitake would be the one who would have to answer for any screw-ups. He didn't know of any enemies he had to have bankai to fight. Apart from an increase in salary, and Kaien might well have been earning more then the average lieutenant given his increase responsibility, what possible desire could Kaien have to train for and achieve bankai? Tinni 04:04, November 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * i see your point. That's why i asked what could be the reason(s) he was not/has not been promoted to be a captain. Also i didn't mean that he must achieved bankai since he is noble.  I just thought that he who has more experienced than Gin would also be as strong, if not stronger, than Gin is.  but then again, I agree with what you stated that "not everybody is interested in climbing the corporate ladder." I can accept this reason... =) --WinterFox 06:13, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Abarai Renji
Renji has been severely weakened now... for a character that was really popular, shouldnt he have more powers? his bankai has been very boring as of late....

1) Sign your signature, 2) No Renji shouldn't have an upgrade. Continuous upgrade to power is what DBZ is about. In Bleach most characters have to train. Renji will undoubtedly get stronger if he takes the time to train but he doesn't have that luxury right now. Perhaps it is time for Renji to exit stage left. Perhaps he will. After all, the field of characters in Bleach is pretty crowded and I have no doubt it will be thinning one way or another very soon. Tinni 10:05, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Tosen Kaname
i noticed that his first shikai ability has Suzumushi in the name like most others but his second had benihiko. so i was thinking that if it is true that the sword is his friends and the ring is his zanpakuto(not saying it is and not saying it isn't) than maybe "cry Suzumushi" is his shikai and "Smash His Limbs Benihikō" is the swords(his friends ability) shikai. what do you think?Soul reaper magnum 18:06, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Its probably something like Rukia's dances, just something he learned over time. Its kind of like Benihime using that blast and the blood shield. KamikazeNewf 23:01, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

guess so, i just thought it was a possibility,and that his bankai uses this ring and not the sword. i know that there are other captians that keep there sword in bankai but it is still used in some way.and i forgot to mention that if there's any thing else about tosen that anyone wants to talk about you can do it here.Soul reaper magnum 05:20, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

speaking of this, i was thinking if tosen purposely did not use his bankai's other abilities (supposedly) during his fight with zaraki and let himself lose. or, maybe it's really just that zaraki is more powerful than tosen. i just think there's more to tosen's fighting ability since he's one of the main villains. --WinterFox 07:44, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

I am firm believer that Tosen was holding back during that battle. I feel that he healed to quickly from that blow from Kenpachi as well as his current cofidence level during the FKT arc. There have not been one person he backed down from or one he beleives that he cannot kill. I mean he attacked Shinji with no question at all. Knowing he was a Vizard and that he was a Captain before he became one. I think Tosen is holding back and I think that some of the strenghts that he is not showing will be shown in the fight between him and Komomura (excuse the spelling) and Shuhei.Tealang99 16:24, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

The reasoning you gave is flawed you cant say he was holding back and then say he doesn't back down. He obviously dosen't back down but theres nothing more to that. If you hold back against Kenpachi you arent gonna win, your gonna get killed thats a fact. He used shikai and bankai and lost the fact that he got healed really quick is no different from Ichigo getting healed really quick multiple times without Orihime or kenpachi getting healed really quick as well so thats not a good reference. Also he took on shinji who was a captain but he was a incapacitated captain and Aizen, gin and tosen didn't even know what a vizard was let alone to shinji it was the beginning stages of hollowfication not what they currently are. That was also anime only fight to flesh out the story in anime it never took place in manga. If there was anyone who knows what tosen is capable of its hisagi and komamura, doubtful they would be surprised. Even though i agree he has more skill he has yet to use holding back wouldnt be the term id use. As for his shikai one is defensive and the other offensive there is no proof of anything otherwise. as for his bankai its pretty straight forward what the ability is. He obviously is weaker then kenpachi which really isnt a surprise but out of Aizen and gin and himself he is obviously the weaker. We can speculate forever but he lost with bankai to kenpachi and knowing kenpachi would that be a smart tactic, no. Salubri 17:33, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

I said he held back because of the fact that he lost to Kenpachi. I dont think he used he full capability in beating him. Whether he lost because of the fact the that he underestimated Kenpachi or not. he still did not use all of his power. Now whether the lost was valid or not we dont know. I just stated my opinion on the the basis that healed very quickly from the wound he received. Though we dont know if he received aid or not, it was still a quick recovery. We know he used bankai but as we can see in the current battles bankai doenst matter if you have a skill that can counter it.(Barragan vs Soifon) Kenpachi figuered out what it took to counter his bankai. Thats why he lost. yet I still beleive that is not the full extent of his abilities. No when it comes to Tosen's confidence I understand that he did not know his ablities during the TBP arc but that is not what I was referring to. I was talking about the altercation between them during the FKT arc. He stood up to Shinji with the attidude that he could kill him and he tried to do so. So far we have yet to see any character cause Tosen to back down or not fight face up. His confidencs leads to beleive that he is stronger then what we have seen. I beleive that we will see some of his true strength in his fight with Shuhei and Komomura( excuse the spelling).Tealang99 18:26, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

i agree with Tealang99 tousen seems to confident to be that weak and i hope Shuhei goes Bankai on him that would be amazingKensei24 02:27, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Confidence doesn't actually make you invincible or great it just makes him sure of a course of action, after all he has his philosophy he supposedly follows. Confidence can easily be confused with arrogance. It's not backing down that got Tosen beat even knowing Kenpachi's reputation. I dont discount that he wont back down nor do i discount that he believes in his ability. does that mean he is all powerful, no. Also the point that he was quickly healed means nothing as other characters have had similar healing and we dont know the extent of his being healed some characters get patched up and seem ok. He did no fighting between that fight and leaving to Hueco Mundo he could have been still injured but patched up for all we know the major wounds were to his torso which was covered in the later parts of the event. He wanted to finally rid soul society of Kenpachi as he goes against everything he believes, so I don't think there is any question of him holding back in that situation. In the next fight maybe he'll show more swordmanship, use some kido or showcase another possible shikai technique, if that whats considered holding back, but as far as holding back beyond that it doesn't seem likely based on confidence alone. Salubri 02:59, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

I think it's simply because Tosen overestimated how effective his Bankai would be against Kenpachi; like his own thoughts convey, I don't know if he could comprehend someone having no fear (kind of links in nicely to his m.o, doesn't it?). If he'd caught on quicker that Ken was still able to fight to an acceptable degree, he'd had finished it quicker and used more of his skills, like hado 54 (think that was it.); we've seen how effective he can be against Grimmjow, so he can obviously fight well, and against someone like Ken he isn't going to hold back (even if it was part of the plan; no comment). Some may think the fact he didn't use these techs is proof he did hold back, but look at it this way; you know you'll be jumping ship in an hour or so, and chances are you'll have to fight your way out. Do you want to be wasting energy using kido or on a fight you think you can win using just your sword? Conversely, would you want to waste time over a fight you can finsh, instead of 'playing with your food'. It all boils down to 'minimum necessary force', and he messed up the maths badly. TomServo101 11:30, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Shikai
Mhmm can someone please tell me why his spirits sword doesn't resemble anything likes sasakibes shikai form?

just guessing but maybe since he likes western culture so much he had his shikai changed.Soul reaper magnum 12:37, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Bankai
i think sasakibe has achieved a bankai. he seems to be on par with a captain.

How do you figure that given hasn't even fought yet in the manga and the one time he tried, he got taken out by Ichigo in a second. Tinni 10:45, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

I know its just anime.......but didnt Soifon say that his zanpakuto spirit was of captain class power? Unus7484 02:54, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Vice-"captains" are still "captain-class". It is fairly well established that Vice-captains are considered something else and do in fact have to sit special exams and such to gain their rank. The difference in power between a Vice-captain and a third seat is considerable. Therefore "captain-class" can include vice-captains. It depends on how strictly you apply the term. Soifon was clearly using the term broadly. Tinni 03:05, November 14, 2009 (UTC)