Board Thread:Improvements and Issues/@comment-4380468-20160703011636/@comment-957629-20160703035836

Garrec3 wrote: This is in response to the previous discussions entitled "Ichigo's place in the Shiba clan", and "Again...about the Shiba Clan" closed 3 months ago by SunXia. I understand you feel you have a point to make but when a Moderator has made a decision it is not wise to try and overrule that decision.

Garrec3 wrote: Forum's are for discussion, and therefore, if the discussion is still active, I cannot help but think that they shouldn't be closed for the reason of the conversation going no where in a hurry. When discussions become redundant they promote speculation without proof and thus provide people with reasons to insert information into the articles because others agree with their speculative theories. I have been given permission to Moderate these forums, I wrote the rules on them which the team agreed to. You do not get to make decisions on how things are run here. If you have an issue with how I moderate feel free to message me I am always happy to help.

Garrec3 wrote: That being said however, I would also like to take this opportunity to state that in fact, SunXia is correct that it has not be Specifically stated that Isshin is the Uncle mentioned by Kukaku Shiba, and therefore shouldn't be listed as their Uncle. I knew from the first in Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince that RAB was the brother of Sirius Black because he was the only one who matched and it was believed he was murdered by Death Eaters for being a coward and there was no real history on him, not even Sirius seemed to know what happened to him. That didn't make my opinion fact until Rowling confirmed this in the next book. In the same instance we know that Isshin is more than likely the Uncle in the discussion, we do not put speculation into articles until we have confirmation even when we know its likely true. So yes I agree here. This is one of the reasons I closed the thread because it promoted the idea of "we all know its him lets add it without reference" which is not something we promote.

Garrec3 wrote: I'm not sure where they got it from, but I got this from the Google search for definition of the word Clan Please don't bring a Google search into this unless it leads to official, proper sources. We are not just talking about what a clan can be in a broad sense of the word, we are talking about a Noble Clan or at least a fallen one. Noble clans tend to be very strict when it comes to their members as seen when Byakuya forced himself to swear an oath at the grave of his parents because he broke the laws of his clan, despite being the Head of that clan.

Garrec3 wrote: The Shiba clan is not an organization, and therefore, to be a member, one must be either "Born" into the clan (by which I mean having blood relation, such as a Grandchild of a member would still be a member of the clan even though it is possible the actual relation to the clan is genetically "1/4") or one must be "Adopted" (which includes as SunXia put it, being "Inducted" into the clan). It is true that these people can be born into a clan and can be adopted into one, but you also forget, powerful people can also create their own clans. As a very avid Historian I take great interest into how clans and noble families begin, how they rise to power and how they decline eventually. I will continue to address this in the rest of my post.

Garrec3 wrote: In the case of the "Kurosaki" family, the only member which isn't related by blood to the Shiba Clan is Masaki. This means that the only one of the family that isn't a member of the clan is Masaki. Isshin, Ichigo, Karin, and Yuzu could be stated to be members. If they are stated to be members of the clan then of course, they can be but Kubo himself must be the one to state this, not us. Hence this is where the speculation comes into it and another reason I closed this. And if Masaki married into the clan then by rights she can be considered a member of the clan. But we know that Isshin married into her family from the story, not the other way around.

Garrec3 wrote: Again I would like to bring up the definition of "Clan", being "a group of close-knit and interrelated families". You keep bringing up this from Google which, while I love Google, is...not really a proper source is it. Like academic source here. The definition you are using for this clan specifically relates to clans in the Scottish Highlands and within the British and Irish Isles. These Highland clans are not the same as the type of clan we are discussing when we discuss the Kuchiki or the Shiba or the Shihōin clans. The Soul Society within this universe resembles the feudal era of Japan so it would be a disservice to just use universal meanings of words without context.

Garrec3 wrote: There can be "Clans" whose members are not related, but in that case, it is an Organization. Its a good thing we are talking about family clans and more specifically Noble Clans and not Organised Clans.

Garrec3 wrote: While all of the current known (and listed) members of the Shiba clan have the name "Shiba", simply being a "Kurosaki" doesn't exclude them from being members of the Shiba Clan. Actually you will find that, especially in nobility, the name of a clan and noble house is very important to its members. Hence why illegitimate sons of the King for example are given the name "Fitzroy" an other such things. In fact George V changed his family name to Windsor when fighting against his German relatives because the name is very important. From that moment he ceased to be a member of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha and became a member of the House of Windsor and as such that became the family name. The Battenbergs did the same and became Mountbattens so you will find that names are very important in Noble Clans.

In fact the current Prince Consort of the United Kingdom has been known to be unhappy that he was unable to give all his children his family name as the Queen was advised against it as it was considered important to keep the Royal House the same at the time. Now I know it's wrong of me to use British History here but you were the one who broadened the horizons with your definition of the words "clans". I will use other examples too do not worry.

Garrec3 wrote: This can be shown (somewhat) by the custom of in some (most would probably be more accurate, but since I don't know the actual statistics, I use "some") marriages, the woman who marries into a family (I don't know about Japanese customs, but I certainly know in America anyway) doesn't stop carrying the name from their original family. The name originally belonging to them becomes their "Maiden Name". If you have a "Maiden Name" it is the name you were born with which is referred to as such regardless if you take your Husbands name or not. Women deciding to keep their original name is a relatively new custom in this day and age, traditionally marriage was an agreement that was confirmed by Law. Traditionally, when a woman was wed, she left her birth family behind her and legally joined the family of her husband

If you want an example, of this, when Margaret of Mar married William Douglas of Clan Douglas, she adopted his name formally and became Margaret of Mar. By the same rights, Henry VI of England was not a member of the Royal House of Valois in France despite his mother being a member, he was very much a Lancastrian Plantagenet.

Garrec3 wrote: My point is that they keep the name as a "Maiden Name", because they never left the family from which they came. If they change their surname then legally they do leave the family they are born into. They may remain with that family through thick and thing and are still blood related but they have legally chosen to join the family of their husband in the eyes of the law.

This is also the same for Males deciding to join their wife's family instead. They are still related to their birth family, but legally they are a member of their wife's family. I have known men who have done this and their children are legally members of their mothers family because they have their family name. They share familiar relations with their father's family but they are not of their family or clan legally.

Names are important to many people in how they choose to represent themselves. Some people join their partners family legally and others even combine their names and start their own little lineage for however long that lasts.

What we know is Isshin joined Masaki's family, represents himself as a member of her family, legally he is a Kurosaki. She does not represent herself as a member of his birth family/clan and neither do her children. Isshin certainly hasn't in the story in the current timeline, not since the flashback. Maiden Names are a name representative of a persons past, of their heritage, they are not part of their current name unless they choose it to be. They no longer use those names legally because they legally dropped them and adopted another name in its place.

Garrec3 wrote: This brings us to the point of "He abandoned the Shiba Clan and the Gotei 13." This might be true in the sense that he hasn't Interacted with them, but he hasn't necessarily "abandoned" them. "Abandoned" implies that he has cut all ties with them, and is no longer associated with them. He hasn't been shown to continue having ties with them. Kukkaku nor Ganju recognized Ichigo when he arrived in the Soul Society. If he had kept contact with the Shiba Clan wouldn't they at least know his name?? Now they possibly did know it but there is no proof of this.

Isshin had no choice but to abandon his family for the very fact he could not return to the Soul Society on his own initiative until he became a Shinigami again. He chose to remain in the World of the Living so he chose that path it was not forced upon him so in effect, he may not have chosen to leave but he chose the possibility of never returning.

Now, his situation with Masaki did not prevent him from keeping his own name when he married her. However, he did not, he chose to take her name legally and identify himself as a Kurosaki from then on. From the text, we have no proof that he kept the Shiba name in any capacity to leaving him there is speculation.

Garrec3 wrote: Concerning the Gotei 13, being an organization, having had his position filled, and therefore, revoked for him, he is essentially no longer a part of the Gotei 13. This however doesn't mean that he isn't associated with them, nor does it mean that he isn't occasionally their ally (but truly, I digress). He isn't really associated with them except by need. He is a former member of the Gotei 13 as he left it and chose to stay in the World of the Living. They have professional associations from time to time but he's professionally a Doctor now.

Garrec3 wrote: As for the Shiba Clan, he never specifically left the clan, and that brings me to my next (and hopefully) final point. Where is this proof that he never left the clan. He left his entire life behind him.

Garrec3 wrote: It is true that Isshin (and therefore his children) are not Active members of the Shiba Clan, but that doesn't mean that they are not members. No, it generally does. For example Oeyo was born in 1573 to the Azai Clan. She married into several Clans, one being the Tokugawa Clan, from which her children were members of the Tokugawa Clan and not the Azai Clan. Her daughter married into the Emperor's Clan and her children were not considered to be part of the Azai Clan or the Tokugawa Clan.

Names were very important in establishing and being born into a Clan.

Garrec3 wrote: It isn't like they suddenly ceased being related to the Shiba Clan simply because Isshin took the name Kurosaki. Of course they never stopped being related. Isshin was born into the Shiba Clan, he has Shiba blood running through his system and his children have his blood. But Clans are not about blood Clans are about what is official the same with family Nobility and such. Being someones relation is not the same thing as officially bearing that person's name. Biologically I am related to both my mother and father and their extended families but I am legally a member of my Father's family.

Garrec3 wrote: In fact (again), Isshin never specifically left the Shiba Clan, he simply didn't go back to the Soul Society. Where is the proof of this statement? You keep saying "He never did this" without reference to a time in the books or chapters that Kubo or Isshin said "I never left the Shiba Clan". But here is a fact for you, he married his wife and took her name and abandoned the name he was born with. He abandoned his family name.

In the same capacity, Matsudaira Takechiyo of the Matsudaira Clan changed his name to Tokugawa Ieyasu and thus established the Tokugawa Clan. He was still related to other Matsudaira Clan Members by blood but he and his children would become members of the separate Tokugawa Clan. Thus, in Noble Clans, names of the members within those Clans are very important.

When Ieyasu allowed his sons to be adopted by others, they changed their name because they joined their clans. Tokugawa Fukumatsumaru became Takeda Nobuyoshi in an attempt to re-establish the extinct Takeda Clan but this failed.

Tokugawa Ogimaru became Hashiba Hideyasu when he was adopted by Hashiba Hideyoshi and he was the second son and wasn't even considered as heir when his elder brother died. He then married into the Yūki Clan and was able to succeed a their leader as Yūki Hideyasu. He then changed his name to Matsudaira and his sons succeeded as their own branch of the Matsudaira Clan for over 200 years after. Get that? Not the Tokugawa Clan, the one he was born into but the Matsudaira Clan the name and Clan he established on his own. From the moment of his adoption, which is a legal process he ceased to be a member of the Tokugawa Clan. Marriage is also a legal process which he also went through to join the Yūki Clan.

Thus I have provided you with evidence of how, in regards to how Noble Clans work and how important names are to members of the Clan, there is more evidence to suggest Isshin joined Masaki's Clan than vice versa. You have provided me no evidence save for "they are related by blood". They are related by blood but as I have proven you can be related by blood to someone but be a member of a different Clan.

Garrec3 wrote: You can't "Leave" the clan like you could an Organization. Well leaving an organization is fairly different from leaving a clan but in reality they are both a legal process. One requires the severing of a contract and the other requires the creation of a legal contract ie Marriage, Adoption, Creation of Own Title etc

My point is, however, that yes, yes you can Leave a Clan.

Garrec3 wrote: With an Organization, you can leave as you see fit, cut all ties and all what not, but with a family, while you can almost achieve the same thing, you cannot change the blood relation Nobody is arguing that they are not related to the Shiba Clan but legally, they are a member of the Kurosaki Family. See my extended points about for details but if you want more examples I am happy to provide.

Sophie Friederike Auguste von Anhalt-Zerbst-Dornburg of the House of Ascania became Yekaterina Alekseyevna of the House of Romanov. you probably heard of her, she's Catherine the Great. Her children were not considered to be from the house of Ascania but from the House of Romanov. She married into and adopted the Romanov family as her own family. She usurped the throne from her husband who is another example.

Peter was born of the House of Holstein-Gottorp but when there were no other heirs to the throne, he was adopted into his mothers family, the Romanovs in order to ascend the throne. Catherine properly used the official name of Romanov as did all her descendants as names are important. She left the Ascania noble house or clan or family and joined the Romanov noble house or clan or family.

Garrec3 wrote: With Family Clans, you can be "Excommunicated", or you can specifically "Disavow" (being kind of the opposite of "Disown" in this case) yourself from the family, and in either case, you could say that Isshin was no longer a member of the clan. However, neither of these have been shown, and therefore didn't necessarily happen. (i.e. There are no Facts to support either of those actually happening.)
 * 1) Isshin chose to abandon his former life. He did not got to the World of the Living and get stuck, he chose to get stuck of his own initiative.
 * 2) Isshin married his wife, a legal contract and legally changed his name. This is important in Noble Clans and Nobility and Noble families.
 * 3) Isshin gave his children the name of his wife and not the name of the Clan that he was born into.
 * 4) Nobody is saying that Ganju is not Ichigo's blood relation but at the moment they are legally a part of two different families.

Garrec3 wrote: In closing, this very, VERY, long post (sorry about that), was about proving that while not ACTIVE, Isshin, Ichigo, Karin, and Yuzu, are MEMBERS of the Shiba Clan. Sorry but you did not 'prove' anything. Instead you gave reasons why you believe they are members of the Shiba Clan without actually providing proof. The only thing you proved was that Isshin was born into the Shiba clan and thus he and his children share their blood which was never in dispute.

Being a member of a Clan and being related to the them are very different things. I have proven this multiple times with examples throughout history and across the world but you have not. This post is encouraging people to add speculation that has not been affirmed by Kubo or any character in the series. You have merely proven the reason I have closed the forum in the first place. Please do not redo this as it is Edit-warring.

If you have an issue bring it to me.