Forum:Anime Canon

On each page that mentions The Bount arc, it describes the arc as not canon at all. In reality, the Bount arc, unlike The New Captain Shūsuke Amagai arc and Zanpakutō Unknown Tales arc, is part of anime canon. I suggest explaining this in articles mentioning the events of the Bount Arc. Orangeitis (talk) 02:15, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

We don't differentiate between "anime canon" and "manga canon" on this site. Here, "canon" is constituted only by the material that Tite Kubo personally produces, i.e. the manga. He had nothing to do with the creation of the Bount arc, as that was filler material made to buy time for him to work on the Hueco Mundo arc. The Bount arc happened in the anime's continuity, but it is not present at all in the manga. Some of the events in the anime were even changed from how they were in the manga, like when the three mod souls tried to help Kon get away from Grand Fisher - it's a contradiction. That's why we use those labels, to indicate that it does not follow the manga's continuity. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  02:21, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

But going by the logic that only Tite's work counts, even in the anime, anything but the animation frames that were direct copies of manga pages count as "canon", and the animation between such frames are filler as well. Even down to the colors of frames that originally were in only black and white then should not be treated as canon. Also, contradictions in the anime should not be blamed on who the author of the material is. Tite himself makes contradictions from time to time within the manga.

The existence of such scenes as with the Grand Fisher and the Bount arc modsouls are direct reasons to consider the anime as it's own important canon as well. Those such scenes alter the anime's continuity different enough from the manga canon that I feel that acknowledgement should be noted.

What I'm suggesting is a fair treatment of all material of the Bleach franchise, acknowledging all canons of it, even if they aren't the "main canon". Orangeitis (talk) 02:33, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Ok this is a pointless argument. On this site it was decided how we would handle the manga and anime content. The point is attributed the manual of style and anime policy. There is no point of discussion here as the content written and drawn by Kubo himself the manga always takes precedent over the anime which is attributed to other people. Having the name Bleach on them does not signify it being canon material as on this site canon is material made by Kubo that follows a continuity. It is not stuff made by others using elements created by Kubo with the name Bleach on it. Any other issues are rightly provided by anime policy. This is the case and point for the admin and committee on this point. Either you can be on board with that or not. No one is forced to be here. There are plenty of sites where your points can be made realizations and there are plenty of sites that already engage in exactly what you propose. To be completely clear any attempt as you have previously made on the site pages to remove information is considered vandalism and will result in actions to prevent you from further damaging the site.--Salubri (Talk)  02:45, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry, no one here is intending to damage this site.

Sorry, but I do not understand your logic. While Tite is the creator of the Bleach franchise, he isn't the only one keeing it alive. He isn't even the sole maker of the manga, from what I understand - he has assistants to draw in backgrounds and color front pages, for instance. Regardless, Bleach is a franchise, not a manga. I find it very unprofessional to ignore important elements of such a franchise in what supposed to be an informative and quality wiki.

Never heard of this "Anime policy" you mentioned, so I'm assuming it's a site-exclusive thing. I suggest changing it from the very oppinionated "manga takes precident" view to a more indiscriminatory, logical approach to the various canons of the Bleach franchise. Please let your readers judge what they accept, rather than make a site-wide dis-continuity rule. Orangeitis (talk) 03:05, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Im sorry your under the impression that outside views dictate the way this site runs. While you may consider your point universal its an opinion and yours alone. If you have issue with you dont have to frequent the site. we will have so many people stating only manga should be featured or ignorant people stating that only anime counts and everything in-between. All these groups attempt to dictate content content from the status of characters and out and out vandalism so no we will not be initiating concepts developed by you that would insist on destabilizing the site. We have had constant vandalism based on inaccurate information brought on by people thinking anime information constitutes a reason to disorganize information. As someone who doesn't edit here you wouldnt know what users have to deal with but you would think you had to right to dictate how we do things. For your information Both anime and manga are presented here in detail and more information is given on bleach here then anywhere online. People can choose to freely read all the information so we are providing very much. Your proposal is based on ignorance and adds nothing to the site. Also for your information Bleach is a manga and constitutes itself as such. Having spawned a media franchise doesn't change that fact, if you knew what you were talking about you would know that. Thats like saying Lord of the rings stops being a novel because theres games and movies. You have no reference to provide your insinuations of Tite Kubo as well as insinuating that he really doesn't create Bleach, which is what you insinuate when you disregard him and your comments have no place on this site neither does your total disrespect for the work done here and those that made it possible. --Salubri (Talk)  03:38, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Hi Salubri & Orange, I read this discussion and I would have to agree to what Salubri say however, this problem arise which I think theres no proper summarization of anime arcs in regards of manga's chapters. If there were summary of anime's arc in reference to which chapters are made I dont think this problem would arise because the summary will clearly state there the Bount arc has no chapters reference. The detail pages on each episode is great however at least to say deserved good credits. http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Chapters#suggestion_add_chapters_-_arcs_sequence.3F check this out all for improvement of the site. Regards. Soulreaper1234 (talk) 03:17, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

That would help, Soulreaper1234, but I feel that it does not address the true issue here. The anime episodes/scenes/whatevers that were originally based on mange material, in the anime, are not the same continuity as their manga counterparts. This site is trying to shoehorn manga continuity into the anime, and forcibly disregard exclusive elements of the anime's own continuity.

We should consider everything if we want this wiki to be professional and impartial. For all we know, Jidanbō's brothers weren't turncoats in the anime, for instance. Assuming it happened because it did in the manga is personal continuity, not official fact. Unless Kubo comes out and officially tells the public that only the Bleach manga matters, I feel that a wiki of this large caliber should not take liberties of that nature. Orangeitis (talk) 03:30, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

I personally think this guy in here has done their best to preserved the professionalism or the integrity of the site, if you look further inside those pages in regards, personally TBH its one of the best wiki. Pushing further this discussion will not bring us to somewhere bro. The anime section & manga section are entirely diferent thing for me, officially you take data/info from the manga/chapter, but for entertainment as a final product of the entire series its the anime & movies. Soulreaper1234 (talk) 03:51, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Work on the the Bount arc is happening as we speak. Except it was divided into events and fights just like the manga arcs were. Naturally the manga arcs took priority, but now work of the Bount arc is under way. If you want to help bring it to a speedier conclusion, feel free to visit the Bleach Wiki:Fight Summary Project, Bleach Wiki:Anime Summary Project, Bleach Wiki:Grammar Corner and Bleach Wiki:Article Improvement Project and see what you can do to help. WD  Converse  03:53, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

@ Salubri : My suggestion is based on logic, not ignorance, and I have no disrespect whatsoever for anything here, whether it be the information or the members of this wiki.

Bleach is a franchise. It's a manga, yes. But it's not only a manga any more. It's a manga, it's an anime, it's a series of video games, and a series of action figures. Bleach is a trading card game, collectable card set, and many more. No, it is not just a manga. My point still stands.

I'm not insinuating anything about Tite Kubo, and I feel that I'm giving the man all due respect. He did create a gereat manga series. But it's much more than that. If he wanted only his direct work(the manga) to count, he would have said so long ago. I believe that he would want his entire franchise to count equally, because that is what I would want if I created a similar franchise.

On a side note, I apologize for whatever caused you to resort to personal attacks against me, but it does deeply hurt me. Please don't do that. I'm here for a discussion of reason, not a ridiculing based on my views. Orangeitis (talk) 03:56, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

@ WD: Thank you for hearing me out. I will try to help out as best I can for that project, and continue being as contructive as I can for this site. Orangeitis (talk) 04:06, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Im sick of all the attacks against this site from people who think they know better when they have been here five minutes or are on the outside looking in. We deal in media portion of Bleach that includes: manga, anime, movies and video games. In that order with the first taking precedent and so on. Plain and simple siting your points doesn't change that. We could careless whether its a franchise to you or not the information here is not based on company out to get money by showcasing all its products. This is a site about information on Bleach predominately (manga and anime). The manga is the foremost primary content of Bleach without it there is no Bleach none of the precious franchised material you want to place on a pedestal as the crowning achievement is important. There is a in-universe information in these articles with continuity being a focal point. Anime is presented and warning users to acknowledge the fact that manga takes precedent doesn't harm anyone and protects the sites integrity. To insinuate that Kubo has no commitment to the manga would suggest there is no point to him still continuing it, obviously not the case everything currently in the media franchise is work based on what is still being done in the manga which is what he actively does each week. He's not making video games or making anime episodes. He is writing and drawing manga. You can continue with this pointless argument but my point is made there will be no such change, as I nor any other use is gonna condone disrupting the integrity of the pages this has nothing to with your points its about the quality and integrity of the site. You ask for completely unnecessary changes similar to taking out periods and commas to create run on sentances. The idea is to keep content not in continuity out of content that is in continuity and making sure thats clear so we arent forced to constantly fix peoples edits. More to that point your talking at nothing because there is no issue. The manga and anime is equally presented. If there was no anime or very little or incorrectly done anime you may have had an argument. There are policies here, we are strict about them unlike most sites. As previously stated if your not comfortable with them or the way the site is no one is forcing you to be here. --Salubri (Talk)  04:17, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Bleach is not just a manga anymore - it is many things. But tell me, how many of those adaptions had direct involvement by Tite Kubo himself? As you said so yourself, the manga is the only thing Kubo works on directly, making it the primary source material regarding canon. If it didn't happen in the manga, it didn't happen in Bleach unless Kubo says otherwise, because asides from a few character designs, he has nothing to do with filler material. I understand your argument regarding anime continuity here on the site, but our policy and standards prioritize the manga above all else because of the reason I just stated. The anime is already summarized and taken into account, but attempting to accept that both are fully canon and represent them both as separate continuities is an unrealistic undertaking. Labeling it as uncanon is essential to presenting the story as told from Kubo himself. What WD suggested is a good idea - just please try to respect and obey site policy. You are entitled to your opinion, but I assure you, this is a nonnegotiable policy. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  04:22, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Calm down, Salubri, no need to take it out on me.

I am in no way putting other aspects of Bleach on a pedestal. On the contrary actually, I am against favoring any media of a franchise for the purposes of displaying information on such franchises. The "either you're with us or you're against us" attitude you have belies what my actual intentions are.

I feel that it is necessary to profess the true natures of the anime and the rest of the Bleach franchise. The truth is, the manga is a separate continuity from the anime. The manga is not part of the anime, or vice-versa. It just happens to be that most events of the anime match most of the events of the manga, as in real life, the manga is the source of those events. It's like saying that the Transformers movies aren't canon because they aren't faithful to the 1984 cartoon, despite character and event similarities. They're two separate continuities.

And this has nothing to do with damage to this site. All I am doing is voicing my concerns on this page that is all. Sure, I don't have to be here, but I am allowed to voice my views and logic as well.

@ Mohrpheus: It might be nonnegotiable policy, but that does not change the fact that I feel that it is wrong, and will continue to voice logic on it.

To answer your first question: What rule states that it has to be made directly by Tite Kubo? What makes it "not happen in Bleach", when Bleach is more than the manga? Who officially stated that if it didn't happen in the manga, it didn't happen unless Kubo says otherwise?

The anime is Bleach's official anime, not some professionally animated fanfiction. The latter is what this site implies that it is. That is wrong and unjust, and acknowledging the anime for what it is isn't not an "unrealistic undertaking". Degrading the anime and forcing fan dis-continuity on it is in no way preserving the story Kubo wrote, because it's the anime... Kubo wrote the manga. If you wish to present the story the way Kubo wrote it, present the manga. The anime is not a direct retelling of it. Orangeitis (talk) 04:43, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

This is exactly my point your issues are that of people who have caused problems for this site previously. Either they feel it should only be the manga or only the anime. Well both are presented equally. No one degrades anything but the fact that anime even stringed together has no bases in continuity with filler arcs, which dont acknowledge most of the anime that is based on the manga. So your argument on that aspect is pointless. There is no separate continuity the anime lacks continuity besides for episodes that reflect the manga. What happens in fillers dont last and can't chronologically be placed. There is the anime that follows the manga and filler arcs. Filler arcs directly contradict both manga and manga based anime content. Thus all filler arcs come with a general warning. They are still presented but have place in canon material i.e. material that is based on the manga. To answer your question that is simply the rule of this site. We are not sent down working for Shonen Jump, we have ascribed that based on the fact that the Kubo is the one who writes and draws the manga, which is the source of all Bleach then that is the fount from which all information originally flows. Plain and simple. Bleach is only more then the manga in a persons opinion what they wish to acknowledge (as I have said we aren't viz media so we dont have to push anything about Bleach we choose not to). Whatever it is its still the manga a that focal point and there is no question of whether anything else outside the manga would exist if there was no Bleach in manga format, simply it wouldnt. This last point has been developed in connection tho the first. Kubo created Bleach this isn't a fan fiction site and we dont care what some video game maker did or what some filler arc or episode has in it. Kubo directly answers questions and explains things via interviews and databooks all based on the manga and rarely anything else. Im not sure your last question makes sense its like stating Kubo doesn't have rights to his own property. Of course if Kubo said it didn't happen it didn't that goes without saying. Regardless of what name you put on it anime, movie or otherwise we differentiate between what Kubo does and what others do using his property. This is how this site is established. As for your intentions, im not sure they arent destructive in nature. As you claim to insist we have to delete whole sections or push everything together based on your viewpoint. --Salubri (Talk)  05:08, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand your logic though. You claim that this site treats the anime and the manga equally, yet it does not acknowledge anime canon, only manga canon, which logically makes them unequal here. You claim that the organization is based on what is contradictory, yet don't acknowledge the contradictions within the manga itself.

You claim that the manga should take precident over everything else because it was created first, when that in itself is a logical fallacy... everything starts somewhere. That don't mean what came first should always take precident. That's like saying the fireman should've saved one of the family's mother or father instead of their children, just because the parents made the children.

Okay then, if the Bount arc didn't take place in the anime... what timeline does it take place in? Where does it fit? And if you want to claim that it don't fit at all, that is completely untrue, as it was an arc that was tailored specifically to fit in between the Soul Society and Visored arcs. Additional evidence comes from the "Bount arc exclusive" characters(the modsouls mainly) reappearing in episodes inspired by the manga, such as the Grand Fisher arrancar episodes.

And of course Kubo has rights to his own property. But logically, doesn't that mean that if he didn't mean for the anime to be a separate continuity, he would not have allowed the Bount arc to be included in it the way that it did? The Bount arc could've easily been out-of-continuity like the Amagai or Zanpakuto spirit arcs. But it wasn't. It's integrated into the anime story.

"Of course if Kubo said it didn't happen it didn't that goes without saying."

This don't make any sense. You're implying that Kubo did say it, but then you imply that he really didn't, and it should go without saying. Why should it?

"Kubo created Bleach this isn't a fan fiction site and we dont care what some video game maker did or what some filler arc or episode has in it."

They're part of Bleach, so if you want unbiased facts here, you should care.

No, I'm not suggesting you delete whole sections... in fact, this would only add to the site. It would give acknowledgement to every Bleach continuity, rather than just one. Orangeitis (talk) 05:32, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

The manga doesn't take precedent because it was created first but because, once again, it was created by Tite Kubo, the original author and creator of Bleach and the man who actually writes the story and knows what's up with its character and its future. The anime is simply an adaptation of said story.

As for the Bount arc, it doesn't fit in any timeline. While studio Pierrot made it appear like it happened between the SS arc and the Arrancar arc, such thing would alter the real timeline of events, in which both arcs are barely separated by two weeks. Yes, the anime is an adaptation of Tite Kubo's manga, and as such, we give the anime story the same treatment we give to the manga, but we're not going to treat filler arcs or episodes as canon because Kubo isn't involved in the creation of the anime. As Salubri said, filler arcs create several contradictions with canon. We are not going to deconstruct and completely reorganize the site just because a filler arc was tried to made fit into the storyline, because it doesn't. It's filler and it ends there. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  05:48, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

The anime isn't a direct adaption because of the original content put into it. And the Bount arc does in fact fit in between the anime's Soul Society and Visored arcs. Whether it fits cleanly or not is another matter altogether, but the actual existance of it intermingled with episodes afterward is the very proof of it being in the anime's continuity. Studio Pierrot didn't "make it seem" that way, because they made the anime. If Tite Kubo made the anime directly and put in Pierrot's Bount arc himself, that may or may not be a different story, depending on what Tite Kubo says about it. But it did not happen that way.

There's nothing stopping Tite Kubo from telling anyone his plans for the manga story, such as the anime writers. And for all we know, he does just that. It's not like they're part of different franchises. No, they're working together on this.

The anime canon is not the manga canon. Calling it the same continuity, then disregarding elements of the other's continuity is just plain irrational thinking. It's quite obvious that this is merely a collective fan dis-continuity. Why it's not being presented as such, or why I need to repeat my points because no one else here sees my logic is completely beyond me. Orangeitis (talk) 06:08, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Are both anime and manga presented? Yes. The manga is the source developed by Kubo this site doesn't recognize the manga having contradictions besides where it contradictions itself, in which we question and wait till such time that a explanation can be found. Such occurrences are rare. The problem is your position is based from a outsider prospective thats now how we deal with things every decision here is based within the established guidelines the site has. You point to logical arguments that have essentially nothing to do with content and continuity from a story point of view. Your analogy doesnt figure there is no question that the manga is the originator and still is the bases for continued content in all its forms. Your issue with the arcs dont correspond either. Filler arcs exist for one purpose to fill up time between Kubo making more content before the animators continue the story as manga is always significantly ahead of the anime, this is common knowledge for there existence. They relate nothing to the manga content and begin and end in the same arc. The site acknowledges but they have no continuity not even in the larger manga based anime. The introduction of anime only characters or anime only filler episodes do not correspond to continuity, this is all addressed in the anime policy of this site. Im not implying Kubo said anything but depending on the situation he has before stated his views about characters and storylines only he would know. Regardless its still true his word is law in Bleach thats how we do on this site. No explanation is needed for that view its how we do things. Its as he is wrote and thats it. There you go again trying to dictate what we do here. If we chose to focus on only the manga or anime thats the choice of this site. We dont have to do anything else so it stands we dont have to concern ourselves. As I stated this isn't a Viz media or shonen jump site we can chose what is place and what is significant. As stated no one is forced to be here if you dont like the content. We dont have to be unbiased in that regard and insinuation that we have to is not an opinion that we have to entertain. You already know our position and thats not changing. --Salubri (Talk)  06:15, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not trying to dictate what any of you do. I'm just trying to get you to listen to reason. You don't even understand the logic behind it.

Why those arcs exist is completely irrelavent to what place they have in their continuity. They exist there, and should be treated by content, rather than why they're created in the first place. They have as much continuityin the anime(at least the Bount arc does) as the manga has with itself.

But you're right about one thing. If you acknowledge that your site is biased, and you choose to ignore it, there's nothing eklse I can do.

Sorry for the uproar I've caused here tonight. Good day to you all. Orangeitis (talk) 06:25, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Of course the site is biased in favour of the Manga, it is the very root of the whole Bleach universe which is created by Kubo!! The Filler Arcs should not be acknowledged as proper canon because it would just contradict the universe that Kubo created!! You say your argument is based on logic and ours on biased attitudes, however, if the Bount Arc was acknowledged as proper canon then several things would just look out of place!! Kubo has established Urahara as the most intelligent being in his universe and creator of the Research Institute in Soul Society, yet the Bount Arc tries to claim that it was done centuries before this by characters like Ran T'ao which immediately just negates the whole characterisation that Kubo established with Urahara and his institute!! It just makes Urahara look "not that great" if people were doing far more than mere Mod Souls and Gigais before him!!

Sure things happen differently in the Anime but here the site and community prides itself in giving coherent information that does not have the flaws of continuity issues that the Anime so regularly creates so of course the Manga will take top priority to ensure this happens!! SunXia (talk) 02:28, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

I know this happened after the fillers were written, but Yama, Soifon and Sajin have all lost arms, yet in the fillers (ZUT and BS arcs, I suppose potentially Amagai too) the arms are still there; I know we haven't seen those characters since the end of the Arrancar arc, but as far as I've seen only Orihime has the power to fix that sort of thing and she hasn't yet (she may be revealed to have done this off-panel later, doubt it though) meaning there's no way to account for that at present.

I don't think alternate timelines are the done thing in Eastern comics; most are the work of one man or a small team, and aren't linked to any other titles, so there's less need. The only instance I can think of is DBZ's Future Trunks. Western ones do it more often (for instance, Marvel's 'What if...?' and DC's Crises), but they have numerous titles that all interlink, so what happens in one has consequences in the other, so more scope for interesting alternatives.

In the end, filler in some series can just about be fitted into the manga continuity. I don't think Bleach is one of those. And most manga don't do other timelines, so I think keeping them labelled as seperate (at least until irrefutable proof comes up) while still containing the plot et al is the best option. TomServo101 (Talk)  10:51, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

The easiest way to tell if something is canon to the anime or manga is if it contradicts anything. If there is contradiction, it is not canon to the anime or manga. All filler arcs contradict stated material. Even the Bount Arc. Just because the Bount Arc was neatly wedged in after the SS arc does not mean that it is canon.--