Talk:Shunsui Kyōraku

Trivia
Did anyone ever notice he greatly resembles Jiraiya from Naruto? They have both been described as flamboyant, they are both one of the oldest characters in the series.They also have the same height and weight,the both have written romance novels,and chase after women in thier free time.Itachisharkak 04:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Hmm...True,can you post that as Trivia?gohanRULEZ 02:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Wait, when did Kyōraku write a novel? Renji Abarai 04:12, 21 April 2009 (UTC)


 * He looks nothing like jiraiya. Nothing. Only a few of the woman chasing and stuff. In a fight he'd own Jiraiya. Royally.

Okay, when I said he resembles Jiriya, I did NOT mean in terms of looks. Kyoraku did in fact write a romance novel, I think it's Sun colored rose or something (Check under his personlity section). Also, they are both regarded as three of the strongest characters in the series. And yes, Shunsui would own Jirayia, Royally at that two.Itachisharkak 22:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

In general we try to stay away from any references to other series on the site, there are far to many similarities in literature, anime, and manga in general, especially if you look for them, but if they are not actual stated facts they can't be listed on the trivia section or anywhere else on the profile. The site is for bleach not to represent for any other series, as its more of a opinion then anything else. Salubri 22:18, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Zanpakuto Release Command
Since it's been revealed that Kyoraku and Ukitake can release their zanpakutō by simply stating its name, I added it to the trivia for both characters under them having the longest zanpakutō releases. I have also put it under Master Swordsmanship, since I would think he's trained so long being able to release with just the name would fall under said swordsmanship. Revan46 00:13, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

or it could be that since both of them have a bankai they can skip the incantation like renji when he fought byakuya

First it needs to be known that this is not trivia. It was removed because if anyone read the zanpakuto page it would be known that anyone with bankai can skip their incantation.Salubri 15:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Sorry guys...it was a late night as you can see and I completely forgot about that...sorry everyone. Revan46 00:47, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

"My Kittens Are So Shy"
Some of the Bootleg's translations are implying that Kyōraku published an autobiography under that name, while others cite it as a dialogue line. Can someone take a look at the raw page and figure if we should include it in the "Personality" section? The Seaweed Ambassador 00:15, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Just thought I point out that I myself put in information about "My Kittens are so shy" in the relevant section of Kyoraku's article. So this topic is resolved and needs a blue-box put in. Tinni 04:38, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

No need for a discussion closed box on such a small & straight-forward topic. They're only needed on the big, complex ones. --Yyp 13:21, November 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * RESOLVED

Takaoni
The translation of his "Takaoni" technique says that it means "Mountain Demon", but the character for "mountain" doesn't seem to be there. It's a different one that I haven't seen. Can someone explain this to me? LapisScarab 21:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I may be way off base with this and I'd advise getting a native speaker to confirm but I think that the kanji 嶄 implies a particularly steep or high mountain. So I guess that would make Takaoni "High mountain demon" or something of that nature...?Vraie 17:48, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, Takaoni seems to mean "high oni" (an oni being, of course, an ogre-like Japanese mythical creature). The kanji 嶄 used for "high" is normally read zan "steep, high (used especially of mountains)" and also features as the first part of an adjective zanzentaru "prominent, unrivaled; conspicuous (< "standing out")." The intended meaning "high" seems reinforced by the fact that Kubo gives this kanji 嶄 zan the transferred reading taka, probably borrowed from 高 taka(i) "high, lofty, tall; noble, eminent." Adam Restling 07:27, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

I know little in the way of the Japanese language, but should the word oni be preserved as is (as you did for high oni) instead of being translated as demon? Hence the other techniques being "shadow oni" and "color oni"? As far as I know, the translation is technically inaccurate, since oni seems to be a rather broad term, as well as proper. Mohrpheus 20:23, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

I guess the final call will be for the admins but, personally, I'd keep it as "oni." Very few folkloric words transfer satisfactorily from language to language, at least on a strict term > term basis, i.e. while you can take a word and give it a definition that nicely explains its various meanings, you can rarely give it a translation that does the same in a single, neat package of a word. Say you wanted to translate vampire. Well, originally it seems to have meant "evil specter that preyed on the living," but it can also mean "demon who preys thus," "specter of a deceased person who preys thus," as well as covering things like doing so by stealing either the life-force or the actual blood of a person, etc. Sometimes they're even merged with traits of werewolves and witches. Thus, no single English word can translate all these possible nuances, and translating the single word "vampire" with some voluminous definition is like not translating at all. In the case of vampire, we simply borrowed the word itself, if adapted somewhat to English pronunciation (indeed, not unlike we did samurai).

Oni are originally believed to have been the invisible specters of calamity and misfortune, derived (it's held) from on "hide, conceal; hidden, concealed, dubious." The Japanese borrowed to write this word the Chinese graph for "wraith"--its sound also adapted as the alternate Japanese reading ki--which itself once referred to the souls of the dead but later evil spirits of any type (human or not). Because of various possible sources--the myth that oni etc. were associated with the northeast or "ox-tiger," and influence from different classes of Indic supernatural beings--the oni changed into their popular current form of savage ogre-like creatures. But since the earlier and broader meaning is still current in ki, I would refrain from translating in most cases and keep the original or close-to-it forms, and simply define their nuances in glosses. Adam Restling 17:02, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Bushō Koma
"Bushō Koma (Lazy Spinning Top) - (...) In this case a spinning top game." I just have to ask: what is a spinning top game? Geohound 11:37, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

I am not entirely sure how to answer this. Mostly because I don't know what you are asking exactly. Do you want to know what a spinning top is or do you want to know how you can play a game with a spinning top? I'll just answer both. A spinning top is a toy that spins on an axis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top). You can play various different games with them, the one I remember off the top of my head involves trying to knock your opponents spinning top off the playing surface with your own. Hitsugaya was the local undefeated spinning top champion of West Rukongai and in episode 206 you can see Urahara Kisuke playing spinning tops in the sequence where Soifon follows him around to try and gather evidence of his goofing off. Busho Koma is apparently the string that you use to get the top spinning and apparently is a term that also applies to people who do not acted unless pushed to do so. This busho koma bit of the information is second hand, I heard it from someone else, so I am not 100% on it. Anyway, I hope this helps. Tinni 12:08, September 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thnaks alot! Geohound 21:15, September 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * RESOLVED

Bushō Koma Romanji
Another question on this subject but the raw manga gives the technique furigana as Bushougoma, not koma. I guess cos of the combined words, the ko takes a dakuten and becomes go in this case. Vraie 17:46, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

I suppose if the raw says that rendaku applies, then it does. It's otherwise somewhat tricky to know when to do so, as the wikipedia article explains. MarqFJA 18:31, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

I guess that's why they invented furigana xD. Edit to add: here is the raw where it clearly says Bushougoma ぶしょうごまVraie 19:04, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

Yep, Vraie seems to be correct, it's "Bushougoma" ("lazy top"; top as in the kind that spins, it seems). Or should I say Vraie is "true" ;) . Adam Restling 07:17, January 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for confirming Adam. Ok, I'll change it to Bushōgoma. Tinni   (Talk)  07:21, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Power
$$Insert formula here$$ The whole thing about yamamoto saying shunsui power is do to team work isn't correct, just because it says it on onemanga dosn't make it true, especially sense it's translted by fans, the english release by VIZ dosn't say it's do to there team work but there indivigual strength, and say what you about VIZ but the fact is it's a preofessional translation nd not done by fans--Croc117 05:34, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

...and the thing simply mentioning that Shunsui is one of the most powerful swordsmen in Soul Society has already been mentioned. Better to say something else than the same thing twice. Gold3263301 07:24, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

thats not the point, the point is that the wrong translation isbeing used, and somthin els shouldn't be said if it's wrong--Croc117 08:45, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

All manga translations aren't perfect since they are made by imperfect beings. So we can't really say which is right or wrong, since most of us are neither Japanese nor well-versed in the language. In fact, every translation could be wrong (probably not, but could be). But that is how one translation sees it as, and they probably won't change their ways of translating the dialogue. Gold3263301 08:56, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Viz does not do a word for word translation. They do an adaptive translation. By that I mean that they translate the story as a whole and therefore take a LOT more liberties with how they translate dialogue then many fansubbers. The fact that they are "professionals" don't really come into it. While you would expect them to have a deeper knowledge of Japanese language, they are also doing their translation for a target audience/market. They will do what they feel will get the story across best to that audience. As such, they have been known to omit and/or completely alter certain dialogue. So really, unless you are saying that Yamamotto didn't say Ukitake and Kyoraku complement each other in the original Japanese version, there isn't really much to talk about. Because at this point this has boiled down to a discussion about who is better Viz or Manga-rain (all the fansubs of that particular chapter is done by Manga-rain). Manga-rain does have a very high reputation as translators and from what I understand boast translators with indepth knowledge of Japanese (they might even be Japanese, I am not sure) (I was wrong, Manga-Rain translates from Chinese, not Japanese but of the scanlations of the early chapters, they are generally better). There is no reason to think they are somehow inferior to Viz translators. Tinni 16:42, November 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to add that if the issue here is mainly that Bleach Wiki does not place enough weight on Viz translations then perhaps the best place to discuss this is forum topic Forum:Attitude_toward_official_sources_on_this_wiki devoted to this issue. Tinni 17:08, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

but it dosn't make any sense, how do there powers compliment each other, they haveto completly different abiltys, that and why would VIZ change that piece of dialogue, it would of chaged the story at all or confused any readers--Croc117 20:39, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

It may not make sense until we actually see them fighting together and actually actively working with each other, which we have not so far. And as Tinni said, there is an entire thread dedicated to it. Take it up there, as this talk page is not the place for it. --Yyp 20:56, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Besides the fact that the chapter was out before it was published by Viz your looking at the information as if you have a full grasp of their zanpakuto abilities when no one can claim too. we aren't fully aware of what shunsui or Ukitake's zanpakutos is entirely capable of as well as the point that users on this site dont trust nor normally use viz in translations. Now seeing as your someone who apparently buys those books i understand your issue but its not unless you can say for a fact what the full capabilities are of each character there is no point in stating that what at least two translations sights say are false. Primary example is Kubo's first language is japanese and the arrancar charactes have spanish names, rank and releases yet they are not always correct spanish but thats what they are put down as by kubo. Another point is we have had users with a understanding of japanese and while majority of the context that would make it japanese (use of honorifics and the like are taken out) there was never a question of the meaning of the words. Viz translations are grossly americanized to the point that you can scarcely call the dialogue what would be used in japan but more of on the conversation you could have on the street in america (no honorifics, no respect of rank, no deep intellectual conversations or substance to the words) They're two different cultures and Viz edits most of that out to appeal to americans. The fact that the two are best friends and are constantly with each other are enough to attribute the likelihood that they are complimenting each other. by being different one picks up where the other lacks and so forth as shown in the manga (they where fighting alonside each other) they dont have to have identical powers to be complimentary. Your issue seems to be a form of a opinion as to what that means based on your experience with reading viz. The fact is if the site was to go by viz we wouldn't be up to where we are in the manga or the anime. Salubri 21:01, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

no i don't know the full xtent of there power but from what we've seen there completly unrelated, one redirects attacks the other makes games real, how do those complemnt each other? and if we go by what your saying we can't have there team work in here either because we haven't seen it, so it's just as speculative--Croc117 23:19, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

we did see them work together against Starrk, but your obviously determined to believe what you want so the conversation has become pointless as you haven't listened remotely to anyones point. but suffice to say Viz is not the primary source used here because its just as ambiguous if not more so then what your saying of other translations. Being so called professionals is a matter of a opinion just because they are the media company that publishes the books just as your questioning of whether they are complimenting each other is a matter of a opinion. as stated at least two translation sights state this is the correct translation, Im sorry that you dont agree. Salubri 00:05, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

don't assume to know what i'm thinking, there corroperatin against starrk is almost none, Ukitake saved shunsui an that was pretty much it, how much team work was seen before the fight was interupted, and those two sources, they look exactly the same, there proably the same translation because there translated by the same person or persons, so thy sould only be counted as one not two--Croc117 00:52, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Alright, this discussion is at an end since it has now denigrated into "interpretation". Manga-Rain said Yama-jii said Ukitake and Kyoraku complement each other. Viz says Yama-jii said "And When it came to battle, you were both transcendent". In terms of word for word translation, I would bet Manga-Rain stuck to the original Japanese more both are questionable as Manga-Rain translates from Chinese. I buy Viz volumes myself and so I know that Viz does do an adaptive translation and often do change dialogues substantially, not just minor things like putting "blast" instead of "damn" or eliminate things like "nii-sama" or suffixes. Bleach wiki tries to stick to what Kubo said in the original Japanese as much as possible. So unless someone with knowledge of Japanese comes in and says Manga-Rain got it wrong, we aren't changing that line.
 * Now whether what Manga-Rain said makes sense or not is another matter completely. Kyoraku and Ukitake fight together a lot. So their powers don't exactly get in each others way (as would happen say if Yama-jii fought together with Hitsugaya). So at this point whether Kyoraku and Ukitake do work well together is open to interpretation. A lot of things are open for interpretation and the wiki usually solves that by putting things down exactly as written. That's what has been done, only the "exactly as written" part came from Manga-Rain. So again, unless someone with knowledge of Japanese comes and says that "after reading the Japanese Raw I think Manga-Rain got it wrong". There is nothing more to say. It's not a matter of not trusting Viz translations but being aware that Viz translates to make their manga more accessible to the American audience and therefore adapts the story as they are translating. Not just do a straight translation. Tinni 02:06, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

after looking around, i found 3 translations of the line in mention, the first being VIZ the second is Manag- rain and the third is i believe is Bleach7, the last one supports the VIZ translation, while there not saying the same thing word for word there making the same point, niether say anything about team work--Croc117 05:30, November 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * I just went to Bleach7.com and download the chapter 155 that they had for download as well as check the link they provide for online reading. Both are from Manga-Rain. I think you are referring to Manga7.com, whose scanlation is available in BleachExile only . I know nothing of the quality of Manga7's translation, so I can't comment one way or the other on their translation. They do appear to be forerunners of Maximum 7 but Maximum 7 translation are not free of criticism. I have provided the link, I will let others, including the admins decide if that is enough to remove that line. Tinni 06:21, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Alright, to resolve this once and for all. I asked Sheetz from FLOL what Yama-jii is saying. I linked him the raw of that page and this is what Sheetz said,

Yamamoto says, "And at one time, as far as fighting is concerned, that strength surpassed the rest. Amongst your peers and your predecessors there were none to rival you."

''Just going by how it's written it's kind of ambiguous in that what Yamamoto says could refer to either their individual strengths or their combined strengths. Logically, however, we have to assume that Yamamoto himself has always been stronger than either of them individually, so he was likely speaking of their combined strength.''

I also asked Maaru from FLOL on her take on what Yama-jii said but I haven't heard back from her yet. So at this point I have pretty much gathered all the information I can gather to make a definitive decision. Now it's really upto the admins and other users to settle this debate. Tinni 09:11, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

After reading the version on BleachExile, I have little faith in that scan group. Some things said there just don't make any sense. So I would not be taking what they say about the two captains' power as the correct version. --Yyp 10:47, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Alright Maaru got back to me. This is what she said,

Ok, first things first: Manga-rain translated from Chinese instead of the Japanese raws, so I don't really trust them as much as the other translators (they translated Zangetsu as "Kitsuki", for example), because something is inevitable lost along the way the more times you translate something into another language.

I looked at the panel you were concerned with, the main problem was what Yama-jii said, right?

''Now, the weird part is that, Kubo uses an obscure kanji at one point (that all my dictionaries didn't even have entries for it), so I'm still confused. However, it did mean somewhere along the lines of "Overpowering to the point that everyone else looked like trash in comparison", and not a thing about complementary powers. So, in this case, the Manga_7 translation is more accurate.''

''Is that enough? If you need me to verify it directly, (the raw you showed me was blurry, but I have the actual Japanese volumes, so I read it from there instead), I'll provide the line translation.''

So at this point, Manga-Rain's translation accuracy has been called into question but Manga7 isn't much better. Sheetz and Maaru translated afresh from the raw and we have Viz. That's all the info I can possibly gather. So now it's over to the admins. Tinni 10:56, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

The obscure kanji seems to be the source of our problem, eh? Good old Kubo - did he want it to be vague and open to interpretation? Anyway, at this point, we have established that there is a problem with all the versions. And the anime (ep55 - at least the LunarAnime translation of the original Japanese version) makes no mention of complimentary either. FLOL are the people you get the spoilers from right Tinni? --Yyp 11:35, November 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yep, Sheetz is considered one the best translators out there in Bleach Fandom. Maaru translates when Sheetz isn't around but both are very knowledgeable in Japanese. They also have extensive knowledge of Japanese culture and manga writing style and culture. They are as accurate as they come. Tinni 11:45, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

i don't know if this helps or can be counted but the scene in question, in the anime episoded with the scene, the sub states there powers surpass others but dosn't mention it as team work. Also going by the above translation, stating that yamamoto ment there team work is speculation becasue he dosn't say anything related to team work.--Croc117 07:53, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Well if everybody is happy then I'll go modify the line now. Tinni 14:10, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Im not sure where the practice of changing things after a brief conversation where nothing was decided came from but we have already established the significance of Viz and its translation ability on the site. This is one adaptation and we cant uphold the precedent that they are the sole authority on the words of characters. Secondly it we have already went through what are verifiable sources if you discount the primary translation we use then you have to discount every translation done to add onto the sight. Its not that important of a change but the issue is subjective to the opinion of one considers comlipementary. Now where going as far as trying to use anime to determine what was said in the manga. The fact is if Yama says that when it comes to battle their complimentary abilities work phenomenally well together. Then it should take no more meaning then that, not only does this conversation take place in a chapter far before we even knew what their zanpakuto did, thus more likely then that kubo hadn't come up with concept yet then. Also we are making the issue that he was referring to their zanpakuto as if that was the only power they had, as well as the fact that during the conversation he was speaking generally about their differences and similarities. So the real question that has to be detemined is that but also if manga-rain is more viable then Viz and if not then are we changing to the entire site to reflect what viz wants. Salubri 18:20, November 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * In this case the question was more about the Translation capabilities of Manga-Rain. Who translate from Chinese to English. This site doesn't go by Manga-Rain translation because if it did it would be calling Zangetsu -> Kitsuki. I went above and beyond for this and ask Sheetz and Maaru to translate from scratch. This is not about changing it to reflect Viz. It's about changing it to reflect what's actually in the raw. Since when do we have an objection to doing this? Tinni 01:49, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

so were supposed to use the manga-rain version, even though it's the only one to say ther abilty's complement each other and there are multiple other sources to say somthing different? that doesn't make anysense--Croc117 03:14, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

I have spoken with Salibur and we are going with Sheetz's translation of the line. Sheetz said that Yamamoto said "And at one time, as far as fighting is concerned, that strength surpassed the rest. Amongst your peers and your predecessors there were none to rival you." '''I would like to make it very clear that this is NOT an endorsement of Viz translations. Viz translations have many issues and is not the primary source for this site and nor will it ever be as long as they continue to Americanize the manga.''' Simply put, in this case it was clearly established that Manga-Rain got it wrong and we did so by going outside the loop and getting Sheetz, Maaru from FLOL involved and also because Manga7 scanlation contradicted Manga-Rain. Anyway, if no one has any further objections, this matter is close, someone put that blue box on the discussion already. Tinni 04:26, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

kido
Why is he considered a kido master if all he has ever done is do something similar to hado 1???????? That's ridiculous!!!!!! >:O

Please sign ALL of your messages. He's a master, because it's listed as one of his strongest points in his Captain's Combat Data (100/100). The chart itself is down in his Powers & Abilities section. Everything listed under their powers, including Kido, is accurate. So, in other words, with Kido, it's not what's shown, but from what Kubo stated in a character book that reinforces Kyoraku's mastery over Kido. Arrancar109 (Talk)  04:23, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Suspicious about Aizen
Shouldn't we put in his history that he was somehow awere that there is something fishy about Aizen? Geohound 21:19, January 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.09/01/
 * http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.09/02/
 * http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.09/03/

He was suspicious of something but never truly elaborates on what he was thinking nor has it ever been brought up or important to the character or the story line. Trying to state what was possibly or exactly on his mind is no more then speculation. His actual thoughts may never be known as nothing was said or done the night in question nor 100 years after he may have questioned the suspicious situation. Salubri (Talk)  00:27, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Bankai
Since his bankai has been actually used shouldn't someone put it up here?--Berfomet 23:24, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Eh, he has not used his Bankai yet. If you are referring to his battle with Starrk, he only used his Shikai, all of the details of which are in the article already. -- Yyp  (Talk)  23:28, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

ok my bad it was a mistranslation on the manga i was reading--Berfomet 23:31, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

No worries. -- Yyp  (Talk)  23:35, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * RESOLVED