Talk:Kaname Tōsen

Automated transfer of Problem Report #12411
The following message was left by Deronnice via PR #12411 on 2008-07-30 08:57:15 UTC

''Kaname Tosen Is a ex captain please add him on the ex captain list at the bottom of page, ty. (dont rly know ho wto do it Lol ''


 * Resolved

Incorrect?
The article is stated as saying: "As shown in Episode 209, Kaname had his Bankai 101 years ago when he sneak attacked Kensei making him formerly one of the only two Seated Officers to have Bankai, the other is Ikkaku Madarame." Given that a shinigami must be capable of bankai to become a captain, isn't every officer promoted to captain capable of bankai (thus Kisuke Urahara when he takes the Captain Qualification Exam, for example, and with the exception of Kenpachi, of course)? Also, what about Renji? -- El jota 05:48, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I think whoever typed that meant non-captain shinigami. While every captain (aside from Kenpachi Zaraki) can use bankai, just because a shinigami knows it doesn't mean it's a surefire way to pass the captain's proficiency test (hence the reason why Renji is not a captain). There are likely other details to the Captain's test besides just being able to use bankai (though, none are officially known), and the test has to be officially initiated. Renji probably hasn't officially taken the test, which is the reason why he is still Byakuya's lieutenant.Arrancar109 06:01, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No one knew about Kaname or (definitely) Aizen achieving their Bankai back then, let alone their actions involving the Missing Soul Incident. As for Renji, I just do not know, which is ironic when you look at my name. I'm pretty sure he's not promoted because

or *C: He has not taken the exam.--Renji Abarai 06:06, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * A: He sucks at Kido, which is necessary to be a captain, excluding Kenpachi.
 * B: He wishes to surpass his captain, and becoming a captain would make them equals/complicate his training.


 * I'm not sure my point isn't being missed. Plenty of non-captain shinigami must be able to use bankai since it is a requisite for becoming a captain and the captains are replaced with some regularity throughout the series. I'm not questioning why someone like Renji is not captain, I am merely trying to state that it would be wrong to say that Ikkaku and Kaname are the only two officers to achieve bankai before/without being captains, since Renji (and Ichigo, for that matter, special case I'll grant you) can use bankai and Kaname goes on to become a captain. -- El jota 15:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Then what you should change is this: They [Ikkaku & Kaname] are the only two officers currently known to have achieved Bankai, without their division captain's knowledge.Renji Abarai 17:49, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Resolved

Zanpakuto
It seems to me that, if you look at Suzumushi when it was in Tousen's un-named friends grave it did not have the ring on it, and all of his Swords abilities revolve around that ring. Could it be that the ring itself is Tousens zanpakuto and the sword is just a sword? Arieus 02:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Kroduz: As seen in his Bankai, I think only the ring is his zanpakuto, the sword acts only as a sub-weapon. His Shikai also came out from that ring. So I think SUZUMUSHI IS THE RING ATTACHED ON TO TOUSEN'S SWORD. Which means, THE RING IS THE ZANPAKUTO.


 * Well nothing of this sort has been confirmed so it should not be added to the article page. As far as he using someone else Zanpakuto is nothing more than a rumor. It has Never been stated in either the manga, the anime or any of the sourcebooks that he does not use his own Zanpakuto, it only has two Shikai commants that unlock different abilities WhiteStrike 04:53, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, when I look at it during the part you mention, the ring is still there. Care to send me links to whatever manga chapter this is shown in?

Garganta?
how can he do Garganta? is it some kind of Kidō?--Kisukeiscool100396 23:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

lol they never elaborate, but from what's been shown it appears to work like a Kidō spell. Kisuke said some incantations before creating the Garganta for Ichigo, so it can be assumed. The Green Ranger 02:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

what was the incantation?--Kisukeiscool100396 03:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

hold on....Incantation: "The Stone Bridging Both Worlds Lies In My Right Hand, The Sword Securing Reality In My Left. Black-Haired Shepard, Chair Of Hanged Men, With The Arrival Of The Stratus, We Strike The Ibis." Chapter 240, page 1. Renji Abarai 06:06, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Resolved

Automated transfer of Problem Report #19577
The following message was left by Jalalibad via PR #19577 on 2009-03-09 01:43:47 UTC

Kaname Tousen got his Zanpakuto from Miyako Shiba, Kaien Shiba's dead wife, just thought that I'd let you know


 * Resolved

Automated transfer of Problem Report #19577
The following message was left by Jalalibad via PR #19577 on 2009-03-09 01:43:47 UTC

Kaname Tousen got his Zanpakuto from Miyako Shiba, Kaien Shiba's dead wife, just thought that I'd let you know

Okay... so where did he get this idea? I don't even recall any sort of hints of this. Arrancar109 07:14, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

especially considering she died around the same time that Kaien did from a hollow attack, and Tosen was already the 5th seat of the 9th division, with a zanpakuto way before that event even took place. Salubri 12:26, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Didin't the chap say that Kaname's friend was killed by her husband. Miyako was killed by a hollow.Saimaroimaru 05:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Resolved

Suzumushi Tsushiki
Okay, when he used his bankai in the English anime, he said, and I quote "Bankai. Suzumushi Tsushiki, Enma Korogi." So, why is Suzumushi Tsushiki in his Shikai? Is there some version change in the English adaption that I dont know about?--Kylecharmed 16:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Lol you might be looking at it the wrong way its not in the shikai section actually its just above bankai because its the term that proceeds the name, there was really no other way to put it on there. Thats why the 2nd movement is just above the offensive shikai ability. Suzumushi tsushiki is referring to the bankai its just above it is all.

That makes no sense, and is quite confusing to someone visiting the page. Perhaps you could write it to be Also, the information on how he activates the Bankai should be under that, not his Bankai's special ability. --Kylecharmed 19:00, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bankai: Suzumushi Tsushiki, Enma Korogi
 * Suzumushi Nishiki, Benihiko

While it does make sense to list them that way. The second part doesn't why would you put how its activated in the part that just describes what its characteristics are at that stage. The special ability section is the description of what it does. Which is why the information is right there. Not in the bankai portion where it explains what the zanpakuto looks like in bankai.Salubri 19:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Resolved

Non-neutral POV
Yeah, even though he may be an antagonist, I actually see a problem with the "Kaname Tousen is a hypocrite" statements in this article. Assuming that Tousen follows his philosophy of "following the path of least bloodshed", wouldn't it be more accurate to think that Tousen believes that Aizen's intervention would lead to less lives lost in the long run?

Unless you guys have a source that Kubo says he made Tousen to be a hypocrite. :/ - LionsLight 09:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The article is not interested in what tosen's point of view on why he does what he does in general the fact is if his reasoning is ever given it will be put up but the idea that its wrong to call tosen a hypocrite when he believes in this peace philosophy and may follow aizen based on some support of that belief does not deny the fact that its gonna cause more blood shed then if the whole events surrounding aizen didn't take place. Shinigami have a job to do based on the balance of the world, aizens goals are counter to that he is attacking others, inciting war which the shinigami do not commonly engage in also he is planned to kill everyone in an entire town and if he succeeds the world will fall. The real question is what amount of blood shed was supposedly being spilt before his plans came about that would warrant his actions as the path with less blood shed? From a logical stand point yes tosen is a hypocrite, though he may justify his actions and even believe aizen's interaction will cause less bloodshed in the end if he wants, that does not negate the reality of what he is doing. The general consensus is just because he believes it doesn't make it right and the point being he is shown in direct odds with his own philosophy (especially in the case of consorting with hollows and arrancar who feed on human souls). Besides that it credible triva because of the aforementioned reasons and not directly part of the article not only that but he is believed to be a hypocrite though not in some many words by those who knew him in the gotei 13. So no it doesn't have to be sourced directly by kubo stating that, because the interactions with him or about him regarding his philosophy are readily seen in the series.Salubri 15:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. What you essentially just explained was "Tousen is a hypocrite" is nothing more than original research. Especially since he has never gone against his two principles; "To follow the path of least bloodshed", and "Killing without purpose is murder, but to kill with purpose is justice". What Kubo has made clear ever since his defection from Soul Society is that Tousen has the utmost confidence that Aizen's plan is along that path.

If anything, logic would also imply two things: Tousen believes that without Aizen's intervention, there will be far more casualties, and that Tousen is a utilitarian, who cares about the outcome moreso than the means of reaching it. But that'd be original research as well. :(

And I'm actually concerned about the introductory paragraph as well, which seems rather eager to juxtapose his philosophy by showing off his command of hordes of savage hollows right after. But that might just me being nitpicky. LionsLight 03:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

If you asked the question based on speculating the meaning behind it do it on the forum. We go by the reality of the situation in the article not speculating on why or maybe. As I stated before it really doesn't matter his reasoning behind it, the official view is from what is given and shown. The Talk page is only for maintenance and content conversation based on what is established in the series, what is shown is tosen being hypocritical any deeper meaning to that or reasons against that line of thinking can be discussed by you and others in the forum.Salubri 03:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * No, I just think it is incorrect to call him a hypocrite in this particular article, since it's original research. I was just bringing in an example of what could also be added if pro-Tousen sides also did original research. I apologise since in retrospect, I can see I didn't make it clear. Would you mind if I try my hand at rewriting certain parts of the article I disagree with in a more neutral viewpoint? LionsLight 04:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Here's the essential problem he's a bad guy regardless of whether he see's himself as such, we can't suger coat the issue by making him seem less of a bad guy just like we can't suger coat hollows they eat human souls, Tosen commands arrancar and hollows. There really is no way around that. As i stated before you can debate the issue in the forum if you choose to but we cant change the nature of the article based on fan response, it has to be on the reality of the situation from what is illustrated in the manga and anime.Salubri 04:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

You make a good point, with him being a villain. But rest assured, I don't intend to try placing in anything which doesn't match up with official sources, or change the overall tone of the article. The only part which I'm really inclined to change would be the last few sentences of the introductory paragraph. And that would be to this (which bolded noting my changes):

"According to his own philosophy voiced by him several times, he follows the path that leads to the least bloodshed, which fuels his loyalty to Aizen, who commands an army of savage Hollows and Arrancar. Their ultimate goal is to overthrow Soul Society under the leadership of Aizen."

If you could look it over, and you still disagree with this, I'll drop the issue. Would that be okay? LionsLight 04:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I rewrote it so see if its better.Salubri 04:50, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I can't believe this is being debated. I mean, Tosen is a hypocrite. I have just expanded on the hypocrite trivia to include his "lack of fear" thing. I mean, he goes to Hisagi "those who don't know fear aren't worthy of battle", yet Iceringer has said Aizen doesn't know fear. But I rather doubt Tosen thinks Aizen is not worthy. The guy is a hypocrite and I don't think we need any awkward pandering to Tosen fans. He's a bad guy, he's a hypocrite and I frankly don't give a damn how much his fans think he is up to something noble or how hollows are misunderstood and the shinigami's might actually be the bad guys of Bleach or whatever rubbish. Tinni 15:18, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

You could look at it this way: Tosen has known Aizen longer than most arrancar and probably knows him better. From his perspective, Aizen might not be completely fearless. Either way, this argument is pointless and the article shouldn't contain any statements about Tosen's hypocracy because that can only be considered opinion. Tosen is an antagonist, he believes in following a path of less bloodshed, etc. Labeling him as a hypocrite shouldn't be done in this article. Jacksane 04:27, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

5th Division?
It is stated at the history section that he used to be at the 5th division before he was transferred at the 9th division. When and where was this information taken?--Agate genbu 15:19, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Read chapter 176, Tosen was a member of the 5th division when aizen was a lieutenant there and he tells komamura that he should meet him and later aizen meets komamura based on tosens interactions with the two.Salubri 16:02, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That's kind of ambiguous, neither Aizen nor Tosen say that he was in the 5th Division, all the Aizen says is that he heard alot about him from Tosen. Also note that during the TBtP Aizen says the Tosen has been loyal to him, but he nor Shinji make a reference of him having been in the 5th Division. While it may be possible that he was is not stated thus left to interpretation. WhiteStrike 16:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I think there is a BIG chance that Komamura know the Vizards because he knew Tosen and Aizen before Tosen became the 5th seat of the 9th division. Regarding the 5th division issue, I don't really care whether Tosens's from the 5th or not. I was just surprised that he was a "part" of that division.--Agate genbu 16:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Well he tells him to come to his division they have a great officer that he is sure he would like then later he meets aizen who says tosen has told him alot about him all within that situation. So unless you can come up with someone else who tosen was referring to i dont really see it being that ambiguous. It wouldnt make sense otherwise to even be included in the scenario. what other interpretation is there related to the context in which komamura is remembering the event, otherwise it wouldn't be brought up at all.Salubri 16:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Tousen's Blindness
erm.. just wondering.. if tousen is blind, how does he know whats going on the projector showing ichigo and the others in Las Noches while he asked ichimaru to see it? plz dont flame me or anything..just curious. xanablaka 14:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It's been stated that he uses his spiritual sense to see. Now whether that works like eyes would or just as a sort of sonar ala Daredevil is never mentioned. It may very well be revealed in coming issues. TomServo101 14:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Tosen's Mastery of another Shinigami's Zanpakuto
Tousen is the only person in bleach known to be able to use some one else Zanpakuto, yet it's not under his Powers & Abilities list. On top of that he seemed to have enough sync with his Zanpkauto to cut a high level attacker like Kenpachi(which without a great sync it's proven that he can't be cut in the fight with ichigo)and Shinji. On top of that, Tousen is able to use it's Bankai as a Seated rank in the 9th Division which is beyond even Ikkaku, since it's not even his Zanpakuto. and one last little quip is that Tousen never fought Shinji in the Manga during TbtP, that was an anime only occurrence and not Kubo Tite's orignal grand design or else he would have included that along with bouts and the rampaging Zanpakuto so I would mention that as anime only-Jio Freed 20:34, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Many of us do speculate that Suzumushi is Tosen's dead friend's Zanpakuto. Hell, to be honest, even I think it is. But as much as we'd like that to be true, there are logical arguments that are sufficient enough to make this only a possibility and not completely concrete. And as such, we're not leaving this issue as confirmed info, but only a possibility. Arrancar109 20:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * And yes, many of us DID see this page that you posted not too long ago: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/09/ Arrancar109 20:41, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

that confirms it it's the same design, ring and everything-Jio Freed 20:51, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, we gotta wait for at least 1 other administrator to look over this. Chances are he'll see this and contribute his point of view, but until that happens, we are to do NOTHING on the main article, since it'll likely be reverted. As long as an issue is present here, we shouldn't change it until it has been truly resolved. It has been like this for many other issues that came up on this wiki, so this issue will be included in this as well. Arrancar109 20:47, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

You don't-hear my name anymore: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/212/02/ count down to the end 2: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/09/ EVEN STEVEIE WONDER CAN AND SEE THEY'RE the same ZANPAKUTO! and don't ever revert my edits unless an admin dose it-Jio Freed 20:51, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I am an administrator, but I'm not the administrator that made the "Suzumushi might very well be Tosen's" argument. That's the guy we're waiting for here. And your edit was only somewhat undone, due to you writing over a "Resolved" from an earlier Resolved issue (which was likely this one way back up the page, but still...). That's why I re-posted your link in one of my messages here. But anyway, we're waiting for the administrator that made the argument in the first place to look over this before we can actually consider this issue resolved. Arrancar109 20:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Well as an Admin that questions whether or not its true ill say what i always have. A simple picture is not enough, it could have just as easily been his and he laid it on her grave out of respect and then picked it back up. The reality is we don't know. It has never been brought up in conversation nor has it been remotely hinted at, she is never shown with it either. All there is to go on is a ambiguous picture that could literally go one way or another. It is the very reason it should not be listed on the article as if it is a fact. Not to mention of what we know of zanpakuto it is unlikely as they are individual spirits but they are also apart of their wielders soul. There is yet to be any proof that after the death of a wielder the zanpakuto can just switch or change wielders.Salubri 21:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Admins are still just fans in the end, so no matter what he picks it's just their opinion and not FACT especially when you choose not to believe what's in front of your eyes with the info that the creator of the subject, Kubo Tite in this case, has given and give into your own fan spec which has no proof behind it. Salubri it is a relevant conversation because it gives way to show that Zanpakuto's can be wield by others with efficiency and can be the truth that under certain conditions that they can violate the rule of not being able to wield someone's Zanpakuto other then their own. And as they say a picture is 1000 words http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/09/, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/14/ and artist try not to make mistakes, such making a sword a duplicate of another when the main story revolves around unique swords and designs.-Jio Freed 21:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

The fact remains, the picture is too ambiguous to definitively state that it was previously her zanpakuto. The only thing clear from this is that he had the zanpakuto when she died. Unless he explicitly states that she was indeed the previous owner, we cannot state it in the article without it being speculation. Ancient Chaos 22:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

First off thats the headline that is used when non-relevant topics are being talked about on talk pages and are being moved to forums. which i was about to do before i read what the conversation was. Secondly your stating an opinion based on nothing but a picture a undetailed one at that. We all admin included have been in many conversations on the information placed in the articles and have all in all decided that somethings are left out that cant be proven. What your talking about is pure speculation you have no proof that its her's as i stated before. If you can prove she has wielded it or that it was in fact her's previously then your right until then the opposite is just as true. You also have no proof to determine a zanpakuto is capable of being wielded by anyone other then its owner, as once again its based on an ambiguous picture that doesn't prove nor even show that.Salubri 22:04, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Swordsmanship?
"Tōsen's swordsmanship mastery is even further empathized by his capability of fighting on even terms against Kenpachi Zaraki, who is most likely the foremost swordsmanship expert in Soul Society." -Tosen not only lost that fight, but let's not forget that Zaraki was blind during it, so I think it's a stretch to call that fighting evenly. His databook stats also seem to indicate that Kaname is much more skilled at kido than he is at swordsmanship (low offensive, defense, and physical strength). I think this part should be altered.

Trivia
In the trivia it says that Tosen was closest to Shuhei & Sajin. This is stated in the article & I feel it should be deleted from the trivia. Minato88 20:28, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

The following have been removed from the trivia.
 * Tōsen seems to contradict himself, as although Tōsen says he "follows the path with least bloodshed", he is well aware that Aizen plans to destroy Karakura Town (which will kill everyone in the town) in order to create the, thus causing the deaths of many and creating bloodshed. Also, he once taught his former lieutenant, Shūhei Hisagi, that those who do not know fear are not fit to battle; however, Iceringer has said that Aizen fears nothing of existence. This overall suggesting that Tōsen is a hypocrite.
 * Way too long and opinionated.


 * As shown in Episode 209, Kaname had his Bankai 110 years ago when he sneak attacked Kensei making him formerly one of the few known Seated Officers to have Bankai without the knowledge of their captain, the other being Ikkaku Madarame.
 * Either already stated or not relevant.


 * Kaname is the lowest known ranked officer (5th seat during Kensei's tenure as Captain) to achieve Bankai.
 * Not relevant.


 * Due to his blindness, Aizen's Zanpakutō can't affect Tōsen, since its special ability only becomes effective after someone witnesses its release.
 * This one might have a place, but not sure.


 * Tōsen and Kisuke Urahara have similar release commands, Tōsen's being "cry", where as Urahara's is "sing"; however both are used as "nake".

If you think any of them deserve to be on the page, state your case here before adding them. --Yyp 15:41, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Tosen's "mask"
Not really trivia, but anything that relates to Tosen summoning his "mask" is not allowed. Until the next chapter, it is speculation. --Gold3263301 09:42, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

I would like to request that this article be put under temporary protection so we don't have to endlessly revert speculative edits regards Tosen bringing out his mask. That's the most likely direction this is heading but we can't be sure and Kubo may well throw a curve ball. Since Tosen is not involved in the anime, there would be no need to edit his article until next weeks manga release. So, how about it? Tinni 09:53, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Just did and can we please stop calling or assuming he has a mask he just put his hand up to his face, unless people have a direct line to kubo you dont know what he will do yet. This is the exact reason the page has to be locked because the assumptions are being considered fan boy facts without being confirmed as. Stop writing the story that Kubo's job. Salubri 09:58, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Come on, we all know its a vizard mask. Aizen has the Hōgyoku, which makes both Arrancars and Vizards. He's already created arrancars to serve him, and its only natural that he would try the opposite. And who better to try the process on that his own 2 servant-Captains, who already would do anything for him. If it failed, he wouldn't care, and if it succeeded, he would only make better servants for himself.--Black Artist 23:18, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of how likely it is, it is speculation until it is actually shown in the manga. Until then, it will not be allowed. --Yyp 23:24, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Protection
Constant adding of speculation has been continually been placed in to the article despite the policies and manuel of style being against that form of editing. Therefore until such time as the next chapter is out the page will be locked to protect its integrity against constant changes. Salubri 09:55, November 27, 2009 (UTC)