Talk:Katen Kyōkotsu (Zanpakutō spirit)

Profile Picture
The old profile picture is rather poor due to the lighting. It couldn't be helped though, as she only appeared for a moment. But she has now appeared in episode 245. I took a screencap of her and am replacing the old pic with that shot. If she appears in any upcoming episodes and someone gets a better picture of her, then post it here and we'll decide which one to use for her page. --Yyp 13:47, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

There's also the second one that looks like a ninja, anyone have it? Tman7776 03:14, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

I grabbed a picture, but just a mug. If that's fine with everyone, I'll go ahead and add it. (Or someone else can.)

Question: are we sure the ninja half is also female? S/he doesn't have any noticeable breasts. Twocents 05:50, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Looks female to me. Anyway, I think it would be best if we could manage to get a shot of the two of them together for the profile picture. Hopefully the next episode or two will give us a good shot of them. I've added a couple more shots of the first body. If we don't get a decent one of the two together, we may have to use one of those. But hopefully it wont come to that. --Yyp 13:10, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

I added a shot of Katen Kyokotsu's second half (uploaded by User:KatenKyokotsu) in the Character Outline section. Though, if possible, if they're shown together at one point, that can either be their profile image, or we can do mugshots of both, and put full-body pics of them in the Character Outline section. Arrancar109 19:07, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

I don't know why she uploaded an essentially identical image to the one I had already uploaded yesterday. I'm going to delete hers, because it lacks the fair value information and it's been oddly stretched vertically, and I'll replace it with the image I had already uploaded, since we're generally in agreement that it'll suffice for the time being.

If we want to do mug shots, though, I generally like Yyp's shot a, though shot b is also fine, if everyone else prefers that. Twocents 19:46, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

I am fairly certain the second half is male. Tinni 12:35, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

I think that the 2nd half uses Kageoni to appear behind Shunsui at the end. Can I add this? TomServo101 13:47, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Kyoraku did not step on his shadow. The room was dark enough to not cast shadows. The second half seems to have risen from on of the pools of water that surrounded Kyoraku. In fact, I had a quick look at the segment in question and the second half does appear to be rising from one of the pools, not the shadows. Tinni 14:02, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Just added a full body picture of the second half xXUlquehXx 19:02, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Got a pic of the two of them together. It's a bit dark, but that couldn't be helped with the lighting in the episode. --Yyp 12:36, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Like I said, they have a weird habit of fighting in the dark. Sometime later today, I'll see what I can do. Anyone else who wants to change it to that can go ahead. Arrancar109 14:19, November 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * I've cropped it and put it up. -- Yyp  (Talk)  14:51, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the argument is still going on, but the second half is surely a female. Her voice while being incinerated by Ryuujin Jakka confirms it. And I think the picture with both of them together is the best so far. If we can just get a higher-res. For the individuals, we could use the separate shots. But for the second half, I think we should replace it. Not only is it small, the head is distorted, you know. I think the head-shot during the part that Kyouraku analyzes the two's powers fits the best. Oh, and apparently they were both destroyed, so I'm disappointed to know that we won't be seeing anything interesting about them, at least for a long while. I really like the second half. :Starshade 15:13, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Character Outline
In the character outline, it says that Katen Kyokotsu left Kyoraku because of his dull nature. I got a different translation. In a sub I got, she said she left because of his decadent nature. This seems more towards Kyoraku's personality.--Shinitenshi 07:40, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * That's what my sub says too. Would be nice if someone who speaks Japanese could come clarify but decadent is more Kyoraku then dull. Tinni 07:44, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Tachi and Wakizashi?
I remember at one point Kyoraku referred to the tall woman as the tachi and the shorter girl as the wakizashi. He also said that the tachi was in a defensive state while the wakizashi was attacking. In this case, the tall woman was standing still, and the short girl was attacking. Should we point out that the tall woman is the tachi and the short girl is the wakizashi? --Gold3263301 22:32, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

We should. Maggosh 18:04, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

As well-endowed as the top 3 ladies
Every time I look at the current article image, I can't help but think that the taller half's bust is as big as that of Matsumoto, Harribel and Kuukaku, especially with all the revealed cleavage. Shouldn't that be noted in the appearance section, as is with the other three? MarqFJA 19:33, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

Unimportant and bordering on speculation. Tinni  (Talk)  02:29, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

I fail to see how it is "unimportant" ("low-importance" I could accept; "unimportant" is basicallly "zero importance", however) and "bordering on speculation" when 1. The fact that Harribel and Kuukaku's bust size is "impressively" large, while not mentioned at all in-series, is not contended outside of it. 2. Katen Kyōkotsu's considerably low neckline leaves little to imagination on the size of her breasts, which are clearly filling what would normally be a baggy kimono in the same way Matsumoto's own does (in fact, the aforementioned low neckline is practically identical to the latter's). MarqFJA 15:51, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

I'll have to agree. Maggosh 16:35, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

It is bordering on speculation because you compared it to that of Matsumoto, Harribel and Kuukaku. We don't know their bra sizes and therefore the comparison is invalid. It is unimportant because no one has commented on it in-anime. Matsumoto is the only person the mention of whose breasts is of any importance because... well it is a big part of who she is. Everybody else is incidental because some editor choose to put it in and since the description was factually accurate we didn't remove it. Tinni  (Talk)  16:53, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

@Tinni:

"We don't know their bra sizes and therefore the comparison is invalid"

It's true that no bra sizes are ever given at all, but my comparison is based on clear visual evidence: Both Matsumoto and the tall Katen Kyōkotsu (henceforth referred to as Katen Kyōkotsu-K(atana)) use very similar (if not identical) type(s) of low necklines in their respective outfits, and in both cases, both the amount of skin exposure is pretty much the same and the semi-side view in the article image shows that, in proportion to her own body, Katen Kyōkotsu-K's breasts are close in size to Matsumoto's.

"It is unimportant because no one has commented on it in-anime."

There is a significant difference between "unimportance" (= "no importance") and "low importance", and I believe you're confusing the two. No one commented on Harribel's breasts in-series, yet I could hardly call them "unimportant"; a "low-importance" aspect of her character, perhaps, but not "unimportant".

"Everybody else is incidental because some editor choose to put it in and since the description was factually accurate we didn't remove it."

And what are the criteria for "factually accurate"? Because this is why I am discussing the matter before I make any edits. I believe, in light of my argument above, that the large size of her breasts is factually accurate, but I also wish to validate it first here. MarqFJA 22:29, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

I am not confusing unimportant with low importance. Katen Kyokotsu's breast size is unimportant. Not low important. unimporant and I resent being told that I don't know what I mean. I don't think Katen Kyokotsu's breast size is worthy of note. If someone notes it with a wording that is factually accurate, something along the lines of "Her cloths are notiblely low cut, exposing her ample bossoms" or something along those lines, that's fine. But this entire conversation is a utter waste of time given how unimportant this whole thing is. I doubt very many people care that there is no note that her breast are big. In addition, clear visual evidence means very little. Tatsuki is often accuse of having small breasts but she herself said that they are a C-cup. How someone chooses to dress does impact on how their breasts are perceived. Isane is a good example of this. In swimsuit it is clear she has large breasts but in her shinigami cloths her breasts are not a focus of attention. Tinni  (Talk)  23:11, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

@Tinni:

"I am not confusing unimportant with low importance. Katen Kyokotsu's breast size is unimportant. Not low important. unimporant and I resent being told that I don't know what I mean."

My sincere apologies for offending you. I seem to have a knack for unwittingly brushing people the wrong way. --;

"If someone notes it with a wording that is factually accurate, something along the lines of 'Her cloths are notiblely low cut, exposing her ample bossoms' or something along those lines, that's fine."

So, I were to add "The neckline of her kimono is noticeably low-cut in a manner reminiscent of Rangiku Matsumoto, exposing her well-endowed bust." to the Appearance section, would that fit the "factually accurate" criteria?

"In addition, clear visual evidence means very little."

What? Then how do Harribel, Kuukaku and Nelliel get to have "their bust size is comparable to Rangiku Matsumoto's" in their Appearance sections? I thought that was based on clear visual evidence, since AFAIK nobody in-series ever comments to that effect.

Re. Tatsuki: IIRC, the "C-cup" thing was a response to Kon's comment that amounts to that same accusation; I always figured that she making a point of "small and average are totally different things", because "C-cup" is a pretty average size for mid-teenage girls. Perhaps "small breasts" in her opinion mean "A-cup", thus her rather violent punctuation of her rebuttal to Kon.

Re. Isane: Yeah, I noticed that. I also noticed that her Shinigami outfit is always closed and normally a little baggy, so it's not surprising that they would not draw attention. Matsumoto deliberately leaves hers open and a little loose; she tries to teach the rest of the Shinigami Women's Association her "technique" in one anime omake segment, initially using an unwilling Isane as a "model". MarqFJA 23:42, March 2, 2010 (UTC)

Ok guys this is to much, this whole topic is largely pointless. Im almost inclined to remove the whole section from this talk page and place it in the forum because the relevance is almost nonexistent. The back and forth has gone on to the point that its clear there wont be an agreement on the situation. The simplest thing to do is comment on what is shown in her appearance from what we can visually see. Make no comparisons to anyone else in the series and just simply say something to the affect that she well endowed in the bosom area and describe that the low cut of her outfit. For goodness sake she is anime only character, im not really sure why such effort is being made to argue over this. Everyone has their opinion of what constitutes important, well this is easy its no more then visual explanation and should fit the comparison as anyone would make from seeing a pic. Yes she has large breasts does the equate to the importance placed on Rangiku no it doesn't. Unless a in series comparison is made (which i think has only happened a few times amongst a few female characters) then a comparison shouldnt be made on any page. So far I only recall orihime, rangiku being described at length, everyone else is just lesser well endowed or average at best if not petite.Salubri (Talk)  00:45, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

... And that's two admins that I've unintentionally gotten on their bad sides. --; At this rate, my Bleach wikia resume is not going to be pretty.

Back on-topic: In my defense, I felt that the issue that I've raised was being marginalized for little to no good reason. In any case, am I to understand that adding "The neckline of her kimono is noticeably low-cut in a manner reminiscent of Rangiku Matsumoto, exposing her well-endowed bust." to Appearance would not constitute a "factually inaccurate" edit that is liable to speedy removal? MarqFJA 00:57, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

What Im saying is ive read the issue and without getting deep into the details of it. Simply put whatever is shown visually that any other person making the same edit would put. In other words describe what is visually shown. It is not necessary to make any comparison to anyone else. Also for clarification Rangkiu adjusts her uniform for that affect (taking something used one way and adjusting it to fit her tastes). To say reminiscent would be implying that the same was done with Katen Kyokotsu when we dont know that, the dress is most likely made that way and on another note it doesn't matter she is a zanpakuto spirit and not limited to one form and primarily not tangible in the humanoid form, so the clothes arent real or something she has bought. simply stating what is visually shown is justifiable enough without making comparisons. Salubri (Talk)  01:06, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

I read you loud and clear. "The neckline of her kimono is significantly low-cut, exposing her well-endowed bust." MarqFJA

Images in daylight
Since the last discussion was closed I'll start a new one. May I suggest Episode 264 as a source for better images, close ups of both spirits in broad daylight are available. Weedefinition  (Talk)  10:02, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Excellent proposition. Of course, we do need possible images put up though. - Mr. N 22:21, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Second name
Since it isn't in the manga this won't work but in the anime the second half was called Akichi. SalmanH  (Talk)  16:57, March 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Quote from the DB sub: "Unlike Akichi who preferred more refined games, she likes more ruthless games." I don't know what Akichi is referring to, but it is not the masked half of Katen Kyokotsu. The taller half seems to be comparing (contrasting, rather) the masked half to Akichi. The masked half is the she that the second part of the sentence is referring to. Nor can it be the taller half unless she was referring to herself in the third-person, which she has not done before, IIRC. As it stands, unlike with Zabimaru, the two parts of Katen Kyokotsu do not have different names. Thus, a descriptive one should be used for both (masked half is perfect for the shorter one, and tall half seems to be what we've ended up using for the original one). -- Yyp (Talk) 21:08, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Literal translation means open space, I have no idea what she meant by that but I assumed she was referring to someone or something as Akichi a name for one of their games and it makes sense, I know it's speculation that's annoying enough sometimes but thanks for the response. SalmanH  (Talk)  15:18, April 1, 2010 (UTC)