Forum:Shinigami Character Discussion

Just because a whole bunch of discussion have popped up about various shinigami characters, I am merging. Just to be clearly, I am only merging topics that wasn't about much/were extremely small and not likely to be much longer. I did not merge character threads that were long/had a lot of discussion happening. Tinni 10:05, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Shiba Kaien
I've tried finding a forum regarding Kaien Shiba but didn't found any (please direct me to it if it exists). I just thought of this. Kaien Shiba was a prodigy, and has been a lieutenant at least from TBTP to until Rukia has joined the Gotei 13. My question is when did Gin and Tousen became captains? If they became captain before Rukia joined the 13th squad,  I find it odd that Kaien was not promoted to be a captain. Is he just so humble and was contended to be Ukitake's lieutenant? What are your other theories?--WinterFox 07:54, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Gin became captain the same time Byakuya did. Which was shortly before Rukia joined the Gotei 13 (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/145/05/). Approximately 40 years before the start of the main storyline. The latter is based on Renji's comment that he and Rukia seperated about 40 years ago, when she was adopted in the Kuchiki family. That is also about the time the Kuchiki family pulled some strings and got Rukia into the Gotei 13 before she completed her course in the Shinigami Academy and exempted her from sitting the entrance exam.
 * Clearly Shiba Kaien never achieved bankai. Not everybody does prodigy or not. Case in point, Renji, Kira and Hinamori were all considered exceptional students and as students Kira and Hinamori were better then Renji in everything but swordsmanship. They even became vice-captains before Renji. But Renji achieved bankai while as far as we know neither Kira nor Hinamori have bankai. In addition, clearly some zanpakutos are harder to achieve bankai with then others. Neither Rangiku nor Yumichika have bankai and when they started training to achieve it because of the arrancar they complained about how hard it is to control their zanpakuto. So I don't see what the great mystery is. It has been made pretty clear that Bankai is something special and that is why under normal circumstances, out of 3000 shinigami in the Gotei 13 only 13 shinigami are usually capable of it. Tinni 09:53, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Abarai Renji
Renji has been severely weakened now... for a character that was really popular, shouldnt he have more powers? his bankai has been very boring as of late....

1) Sign your signature, 2) No Renji shouldn't have an upgrade. Continuous upgrade to power is what DBZ is about. In Bleach most characters have to train. Renji will undoubtedly get stronger if he takes the time to train but he doesn't have that luxury right now. Perhaps it is time for Renji to exit stage left. Perhaps he will. After all, the field of characters in Bleach is pretty crowded and I have no doubt it will be thinning one way or another very soon. Tinni 10:05, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Tosen Kaname
i noticed that his first shikai ability has Suzumushi in the name like most others but his second had benihiko. so i was thinking that if it is true that the sword is his friends and the ring is his zanpakuto(not saying it is and not saying it isn't) than maybe "cry Suzumushi" is his shikai and "Smash His Limbs Benihikō" is the swords(his friends ability) shikai. what do you think?Soul reaper magnum 18:06, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Its probably something like Rukia's dances, just something he learned over time. Its kind of like Benihime using that blast and the blood shield. KamikazeNewf 23:01, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

guess so, i just thought it was a possibility,and that his bankai uses this ring and not the sword. i know that there are other captians that keep there sword in bankai but it is still used in some way.and i forgot to mention that if there's any thing else about tosen that anyone wants to talk about you can do it here.Soul reaper magnum 05:20, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

speaking of this, i was thinking if tosen purposely did not use his bankai's other abilities (supposedly) during his fight with zaraki and let himself lose. or, maybe it's really just that zaraki is more powerful than tosen. i just think there's more to tosen's fighting ability since he's one of the main villains. --WinterFox 07:44, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

I am firm believer that Tosen was holding back during that battle. I feel that he healed to quickly from that blow from Kenpachi as well as his current cofidence level during the FKT arc. There have not been one person he backed down from or one he beleives that he cannot kill. I mean he attacked Shinji with no question at all. Knowing he was a Vizard and that he was a Captain before he became one. I think Tosen is holding back and I think that some of the strenghts that he is not showing will be shown in the fight between him and Komomura (excuse the spelling) and Shuhei.Tealang99 16:24, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

The reasoning you gave is flawed you cant say he was holding back and then say he doesn't back down. He obviously dosen't back down but theres nothing more to that. If you hold back against Kenpachi you arent gonna win, your gonna get killed thats a fact. He used shikai and bankai and lost the fact that he got healed really quick is no different from Ichigo getting healed really quick multiple times without Orihime or kenpachi getting healed really quick as well so thats not a good reference. Also he took on shinji who was a captain but he was a incapacitated captain and Aizen, gin and tosen didn't even know what a vizard was let alone to shinji it was the beginning stages of hollowfication not what they currently are. That was also anime only fight to flesh out the story in anime it never took place in manga. If there was anyone who knows what tosen is capable of its hisagi and komamura, doubtful they would be surprised. Even though i agree he has more skill he has yet to use holding back wouldnt be the term id use. As for his shikai one is defensive and the other offensive there is no proof of anything otherwise. as for his bankai its pretty straight forward what the ability is. He obviously is weaker then kenpachi which really isnt a surprise but out of Aizen and gin and himself he is obviously the weaker. We can speculate forever but he lost with bankai to kenpachi and knowing kenpachi would that be a smart tactic, no. Salubri 17:33, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

I said he held back because of the fact that he lost to Kenpachi. I dont think he used he full capability in beating him. Whether he lost because of the fact the that he underestimated Kenpachi or not. he still did not use all of his power. Now whether the lost was valid or not we dont know. I just stated my opinion on the the basis that healed very quickly from the wound he received. Though we dont know if he received aid or not, it was still a quick recovery. We know he used bankai but as we can see in the current battles bankai doenst matter if you have a skill that can counter it.(Barragan vs Soifon) Kenpachi figuered out what it took to counter his bankai. Thats why he lost. yet I still beleive that is not the full extent of his abilities. No when it comes to Tosen's confidence I understand that he did not know his ablities during the TBP arc but that is not what I was referring to. I was talking about the altercation between them during the FKT arc. He stood up to Shinji with the attidude that he could kill him and he tried to do so. So far we have yet to see any character cause Tosen to back down or not fight face up. His confidencs leads to beleive that he is stronger then what we have seen. I beleive that we will see some of his true strength in his fight with Shuhei and Komomura( excuse the spelling).Tealang99 18:26, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

i agree with Tealang99 tousen seems to confident to be that weak and i hope Shuhei goes Bankai on him that would be amazingKensei24 02:27, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Confidence doesn't actually make you invincible or great it just makes him sure of a course of action, after all he has his philosophy he supposedly follows. Confidence can easily be confused with arrogance. It's not backing down that got Tosen beat even knowing Kenpachi's reputation. I dont discount that he wont back down nor do i discount that he believes in his ability. does that mean he is all powerful, no. Also the point that he was quickly healed means nothing as other characters have had similar healing and we dont know the extent of his being healed some characters get patched up and seem ok. He did no fighting between that fight and leaving to Hueco Mundo he could have been still injured but patched up for all we know the major wounds were to his torso which was covered in the later parts of the event. He wanted to finally rid soul society of Kenpachi as he goes against everything he believes, so I don't think there is any question of him holding back in that situation. In the next fight maybe he'll show more swordmanship, use some kido or showcase another possible shikai technique, if that whats considered holding back, but as far as holding back beyond that it doesn't seem likely based on confidence alone. Salubri 02:59, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Shikai
Mhmm can someone please tell me why his spirits sword doesn't resemble anything likes sasakibes shikai form?

just guessing but maybe since he likes western culture so much he had his shikai changed.Soul reaper magnum 12:37, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Bankai
i think sasakibe has achieved a bankai. he seems to be on par with a captain.

How do you figure that given hasn't even fought yet in the manga and the one time he tried, he got taken out by Ichigo in a second. Tinni 10:45, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

I know its just anime.......but didnt Soifon say that his zanpakuto spirit was of captain class power? Unus7484 02:54, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Vice-"captains" are still "captain-class". It is fairly well established that Vice-captains are considered something else and do in fact have to sit special exams and such to gain their rank. The difference in power between a Vice-captain and a third seat is considerable. Therefore "captain-class" can include vice-captains. It depends on how strictly you apply the term. Soifon was clearly using the term broadly. Tinni 03:05, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Ise Nanao
Is Nanao a genius? In Turn Back the Pendulum, she was a child, already a Shinigami, and placed in the 7th Division (Kyouraku called her the youngest in his division). Is this normal for a Shinigami?

I don't think it's normal, as they certainly make a big deal out of child prodigies like Gin. However, since they do make such a big deal about child geniuses, and nothing was said about Nanao being one, it could simply be that she completed the Shinigami school to a satisfactory degree and had no where else to go, so they gave her a home in one of the divisions. Twocents 00:28, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

No, it is not usual. She is indeed a special case. As I can recall, other special cases involving an early graduation include Gin Ichimaru, Tōshirō Hitsugaya and Hiyori Sarugaki. I believe there are other such cases, but I cannot recall them. Laguna 00:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * To add, I'm including Hiyori Sarugaki because of her appearance and position. Laguna 00:33, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't put Hiyori in that category, mostly because she hasn't visually changed in the 100 years, unlike everyone else that was young then. I was wondering the same thing earlier today/last week. I just don't see why she's left out of the fame the other two get, unless there's some behind the scenes sexism there. Ancient Chaos 00:51, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

The only confirmed child prodigies are Gin Ichimaru, Toshiro Hitsugaya and Kaien Shiba. It's probably likely that Nanao maybe a genius as she was about Hisagi's age when she was a member of the 8th division 100 years ago. It's totally unlikely to have someone that young in the Gotei 13 as well as her intellect is evident from what we have seen. But the real issue is so little is known about her that it has not be affirmed along with much else about her besides her personality and the fact that she has been a member of the 8th division since she as a child all those years ago. Though she may not be a prodigy that stands out all those confirmed passed the academy in like a year she most likely either did more time or maybe they just haven't said anything yet to affirm that she is up there with them. Hiyori is just short and she is an adult, it happens sometimes. Just as Toshiro is an adult in relation to humans, though young compared to a shinigami, but he looks the opposite of his age.Salubri 01:27, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Hiyori is just short and she is an adult. Good point. She didn't age unlike the other three. We really don't know anything about Nanao's abilities... I hope Tite Kubo is saving her for something special. Laguna 03:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * While it isnot common to see someone as young as her in the Gotei 13, this by no means qualify her as a genius. Lets look at the facts, Yes she was young but obviously not a seated officer by any means. Yachiru is about the age that nanao was then (in apperance not actual age as no shinigami has ever been given age as I remeber) and Yachiru is a Lieutenant. No one has ever tried to say that Yachiru is a genius. There are two members in the 12th Division that were children when Urahara was Captain, Akon and a female Shinigami. Toshiro and Gin are the only ones that have been stated to be genius Kaien was said to be talented not a genius. Very little is known about the requirements for a person to attemp to become a Shinigami, so until we get some sort of stated fact or confirmation that she is genius or anything by the like, all that can be said is that she has been a Shinigami since child-hood. WhiteStrike 03:46, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually i did reference for kaien on both manga and anime separately he is called a genius by Ukitake ([]) himself other then him being modest about it he is in fact a genius having graduated in 1 year just as gin and toshiro had. Also Yachiru is only a lt. because kenpachi is a captain, we do know that captains can choose whoever they see fit for the position, regardless of their actual qualification. No one would go so far as to call yachiru even a actual fighter let alone a genius which is ridiculous thought if anyone has had it. The issue is that if the gotei 13 allows children in then they must be talented and genius level. Then the question comes that there is likely varying levels of genius some prodigies excelling up the ranks above others and then some of great talent but not necessarily on the same level as the prodigies. Suffice to say Nanao is presumed to have a high intellect but may not necessarily on the level of say gin or Toshiro.Salubri 04:14, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I was gonna point out when Ukitake was talking to Kaien in the flashback but Salubri already explained it. He called Kaien a genius alright but Kaien was a very humble guy. 20 or 30 years ago when Kira, Hinamori, Rukia and Renji were in the Shinigami Academy, Hitsugaya looked small (smaller.. lol), kinda like Nanao and Hisagi 100 years ago. Decades later, he is at the height he's now, which isn't much of an improvement.. Now about being a genius. I think like somebody said there, it can be classified as how proficient one is in certain areas. Kaien, Histugaya, Gin and probably Ichigo (yeah, him too, why not?) can be considered prodiges because: they boost a high level of energy pressure, their growth rate is incredible and they have a keen intelect. Nanao Ise may be very skilled in Kido (as hinted much later after Chado was defeated by Kyoraku) and very smart, but not as proficient with sword fighting and any kendo techniques. So maybe to be considered one, you gotta have the trifecta. Excelling in only one or two categories may classify you as good and talented, but not a "tensai". About Yachiru, I was watching some old episodes and right around ep. 45, when Ishida had already lost to Tousen and was held in a cell with the others, Yachiru comes with Kenpachi and she finds that Maki Maki guy. She forgot his name and he answers and says a lot of other things, including something like "... lt. her name or last name, giving us the honor of being our lieutenant for 10 years. Now I don't know if it really happened in the manga but we could assume she's probably half of Hitsugaya's age but it's unlikely she'll grow much more than that, perhaps getting as high as Rukia, maybe less.. Deimonos 13:52, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * About that 10 years thing: to my mind, he (MakiMaki) is saying that it has been 10 years since he joined the 11th squad, not 10yrs since Yachiru joined. And it was never stated that Nanao completed the academy in less than 6 years, which Gin & Shiba did. She may well have just passed the academy in the normal six years and joined a squad like just about everyone else. --Yyp 14:33, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I found the page. He says he's been serving under her for 10 years, which means that Yachiru has been a lt. for at least 10 years, but we dunno how long she's been at this rank, neither do we know how long she's been a shinigami at all. And back to Nanao, what we alluded to is that is rare to find such young people in the Shinigami Squads. But if she was just lucky or if she excels at certain areas, we don't know yet. Deimonos 17:51, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Compared to others you could call her a genius, altough a lesser one. But i am still wondering how strong Nanao is now. Well, Yamamoto easily took her out, but right before that she tries to take out her Zanpakuto while thinking "there is only one thing i can do" altough only one second before she already had realized that they have only little chances against yamamoto. So i think her Zanpakuto is quite strong. As well as that the eight division was refered as the strong eight by unohana despite their 3rd seat was easily defeated by sado. And you know, its an unwritten rule that the best is saved for the end so i think she is the strongest lieutenant. Remember she is the only one of the current lieutents that was already in the Gotei 13 during TBT with the exeption of sasakibe maybe, who looks old and seems to know the vizard. Suzumushi 23:11, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Looks at onemangs ch83,14* O_o.. "Then he finished the 6 years worth of curriculum in just 2 years and became an official Shinigami." Does anyone have the original in japanese raw of ch 83:\.  But I thought it would be 2 years just because Kaien looked a bit amazed and said "One year...  That's really something."--from Ukitakes conversation with him in the past arc.(once again from onemanga)(315.04/16)  So I thought that made it consistent-- that he would be cheerful on his chances falling (on becoming a vicecaptain), and if it was the same (1 yr acad.) then he wouldn't be able to call Gin a "..scary little genius" without labeling himself one as well.. but yeah..

Before we get to the topic lets review the related facts. From when Rukia/Renji join each other, they look like kids, then suddenly (only) 10 years later they look like what they do today--- then they didn't age for the next (if Rukia was picked up 49 years ago, then she was in the academy 1st-->6yr= entered something 'tween 49yrs-->43years ago) ~46 years ago (after which they didn't ageO_o..) So I don't think the aging is even consistent at all just due to these 2(since we know that ~110 years ago Gin was a kid-- and he met Rangiku before that, then Rangiku was an adult when she met Toshiro(which was 5 yrs after Hinamori was in the academy ~46-5=~41) ~41 years ago-- so as far as we know, it took her ~70 years (at most-since she 'may have' aged different) to grow up(explanation later), and Renji/Rukia only 10.

So its probably dependent on some other factor such as: (a)such as you grow to walking age pretty fast, then you slow down(why Yachiru is still so young looking), then you speed up again(their puberty is different:O), then you really slow down in aging (which is how only the Rukon. elder and Yama. actually look old-- as well as why the at least a few hundred year old 3 senior captains can all look so young)

(b) Reiatsu-- in that the more you have, the slower you age--- so Mr. I-freeze-my-grandma-Toshiro and Ms. I-survived-with-ken-chan-all-this-time-Yachiru(as opposed to hollows dying due to Stark just existing near them) both may just have a lot of Reiatsu (That Byakuya went from teen-->what he is in ~61yrs(Rukia pickup) sorta shows the same Phem. of aging(as Rangiku and Gin-- who we saw with Aizen saving Renji/Momo/Hisagi/Kira (so he was that an adult 5 years before we see Rangiku as an adult--so he 'could' have been an adult anywhere from 101-->49 years ago)-- since we know Gin in 9 years(110-->101) did not really look like he aged at all..), so it could also be that as well-- That if you have a huge amt of Reiatsu coming off you at all times(since Byak. had a powerful presense that Renji noticed), you age slower (It can't be related to latent reiyoku-- since in that case Renji (who we know had been born with enough Reiyoku to actually acquire Bankai(which Byakkuya hinted was quite rare)), who somehow aged several years in just 10 years would have a contradiction in that.

Summary: Aging is inconsistent or operates on some set of rules that may be from either of the two above, could not be reiatsu related, or could be based upon some unknown formula that we lack the information to inference.

Well basically, we can't infer much from apparent age. So having anyone pegged due to age does not quite work.-- of course if we hadn't seen Gin 9 years later unaged, then I would be all for the theory that they all age at the same pace.-- that they all go and have super puberty after being stuck at (if Rukia's 10 of your(15 year)(or 150) lifes was literal) the age of a kid for a hundread years.-- Though since Shibata was his 'real' age, while his 'brother' was only a few years older(and he died at the age of 22) people who died also seem to have different start points that aren't related to what age you actually died at as well! So for all we know, Renji was real world and had died and was reborn in Soul Society only a few years before he met Rukia, while Rukia had spent 100 years (due to being sent as an infant) as a kid-- so age= can't be known at all.

So on the actual topic, I don't think she is a genius, that she went and almost died from the captain commanders reiatsu made me feel that she was low-->mid vice-captain lvl.(As opposed to Renji being high vice-captain lvl)--and no one ever called Renji a genius, though I suppose someone could be a genius at one particular field (like say she's a Kido Genius who can perfectly control even high ranking spells-- a.k.a. mid lvl pwr, high lvl skill) but otherwise, I don't feel she would be a genius, nor do we(as least with my thinking on it to the best of my 5 minute attention span ability) have any way to tell exactly how old she is in the first place. P.S. Is my including chapters= not refering in universe= ban:\?Worldninja

maybe the academy also have apprenticeship and OJT (on-the job trainings) that's why there are other young shinigamis in teh different division (8th and 12th). --WinterFox 03:24, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

On that sort of thing, I would say that since Hisagi was 'accepted into the Gotei 13 yrs ago' that they would have had to have seen what he had actually done-- so being allowed to go along with them for a field trip combat mission makes perfect sense to me. On apprenticeships though, I would say that we would probably have seen Hisagi's if it existed (since he would have been the most likely candidate for that sort of thing, with the 3 diff. geniuses not mentioning one either, and hell even Renji(who was skilled enough to be in class 1 as well as pass.. some sort of test that sounded like he was happy to tell Rukia about) would qualify if it was a common thing) So while it's not impossible I would say it's a lot less probable for that to exist (compared to the OTJ training). I also wonder if someone who was old when they first entered would be called a genius if they finished the acad. early or not?Worldninja 05:00, November 20, 2009 (UTC)