Talk:Sajin Komamura/Archive 1

He was human?
Where did the idea that Komamura was human at some point come from? It's in the history section of the article. LapisScarab 02:28, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

That comes from a history page, deleted until getting prove, as far as I remember, it's pure speculating. Mili-Cien 11:05, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

HEIGHT AND WEIGHT
The Bleach Character book and offcial bootleg both show that he is 288 cm and is 301 kg so i changed it to that but i dont know what his height and weight becomes in feets and ibs.

Fox or Dog?
I know his history says his a dog,but he looks so much like a fox...

gohanRULEZ 01:19, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree they say he's a dog and yet he looks like a fox. Now its also stated that one of the reasons he hides his appearance for so long is because the fox is considered a bad omen and spirit of mischief or distrust. Others see him as a fox and dont trust him. This is the reason behind his loyalty and respect for Yamamoto and tosen. Tosen cant see so he never judged Sajin on his looks and yamamoto gave him a chance and looked past his appearance to see what he truly was allowing him into the Gotei 13 and captain position. So im guessing he is a fox but downplays it to dog so that he wont be so easily judged but as we see he obviously looks like a fox. Salubri 19:48, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Sajin's Release Command
Under the Zanpakutō section, it is stated that Komamura's release command is, but no reference is given for this information. Does anyone know where this info came from, as in the manga, whenever he used his shikai, he did not say his command? Is it from one of the games?--Yyp 11:18, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Nobody has an answer to this? The fact that there is kanji for it suggests that it wasn't made up - it did come from somewhere. But if no proof is forthcoming, that isn't reason enough to leave it there. --Yyp 22:24, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

I think the information is from the Bleach Book of SOULs. I am not sure. I am uploading the raw here so people who can read japanese and check and confirm this is the source of the "Roar" command. Tinni 02:46, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Right, I'm fed up seeing this there with no evidence to back it up. It is gone. Until somebody can provide (in English) evidence of that being his release command, it is speculation. I have seen translations of various biographies & databooks, but I have never come across anything about his release command. And he is one of my favourite captains, so I would remember if I saw it. I'm repeating myself here, but is this from one of the video games? --Yyp 15:08, October 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * Right, a quick follow-up to this. I have found that exact page in English, and it says "Komamura's giant sword deems Kenpachi a traitor for helping the Ryoka, and gives out a roar." That seems to have been the source of this claim, so this matter can be put to rest now. --Yyp 20:47, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

Komamura's Main Image
I have a suggestion. Is it okay if we revert Komamura's main image (File:Sajinface.jpg) back to its original image (File:Saijin.jpg)? I believe it's better than the current image and its previous images because of two reasons. First, we have a better view of his face since he's facing the screen (I mean, you can see his eyes looking at you). Second, we also get a better view in the sense that it has the closest view compared to its successive images. Let me know what you guys think, okay? Thanks.:) --Ethelion 10:19, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Who changed his main image?! This is by far the worst main image Komamura has. Please revert it back to the one in the Fake Karakura Town.--Agate genbu 03:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Hey guys. I'd like to follow-up on my request re: "Komamura's Main Image" (refer to the Komamura's Main Image section of this discussion page for more). I assume that you guys not replying means that I could push through with my request of reverting Komamura's main image back to its original (File:Saijin.jpg). Unless you think otherwise, please give me your thoughts okay?:) Thanks a bunch.--Ethelion 01:32, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Bleach Video Games?
Ok, why does Komamura's page have this section? Shouldn't that info be under 'trivia' or 'appearances in other media'? And why does it redirect to "Bleach: Dark Souls"?King Of The Kill 07:18, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

You were right i dont know why it said that but i fixed it to appearances in other media, as far as the redirect link it has more to do with getting to the area talked about in the section this komamura.Salubri 17:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Automated transfer of Problem Report #23008
The following message was left by Goldbig via PR #23008 on 2009-06-08 10:40:59 UTC

The 'Trivia' section claims that Sajin is the only Shinigami without human properties.

Yet, in the 12th Div there are shinigami with huge fish faces which were checking Rukia's gigai.

I think what you mean is the 'Only Shingami Captain', not 'Only shinigami'.

Palm thrust

 * In episode 100 komamura was blasting people back with by simply thrusting his palms towards them but not even touching them and they were knocked back at least 2-3 feet, that is another testament to his strength but can it be added or or not since this was a filler arc?--SalmanH 20:09, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

It can be added in but needs to referenced. the only time theres an issue is when the anime totally conflicts with the manga. In this case it doesn't cause its showing a skill or ability that maybe seen later or he yet to show much like the versatility of his zanpakuto's abilities.Salubri 14:25, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Alright then as long as it isn't much of problem.--SalmanH 14:42, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Bankai/Shikai
I don't know Japanese, so if someone could indulge my question, I'd appreciate it.

His Shikai is Tenken (天譴) while his Bankai is Kokujō Tengen Myō'ō (黒縄 天譴 明王). Why does one have a k and the other a g (Tenken versus Tengen), when both use the same kanji (天譴)? I ran them through a romaji translator, and it identified them both as using a k. Is there a specific reason for this difference, or is one a mistake? Twocents 01:36, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

The official guide has them the exact way there up so who knows, we probably would have to know japanese to understand.Salubri 02:00, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Oh, that's quite strange! Thank you for answering. ^_^ Twocents 02:02, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Is he the least seen captain of the Gotei 13
just wondering if he's the least seen captain of of the gotei 13, excluding Aizen, Gin, and Tousen (who are now villains). I know Sasakibe is the least seen vice captain/lieutenant. If he is, please add this fact to the article in triva or somewhere.

Tman7776 03:08, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Junk trivia, do not add under any circumstances. Plus "least" is difficult to quantify. Tinni 04:09, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

Trivia
Re: The last point regarding Ichigo being the only person to beat his bankai. As far as I'm aware the two have never really met, let alone fought. When did this occur? TomServo101 13:40, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

This happened in the 3rd movie, that part should probably be specified because in the Manga Komamura stands undefeated in bankai mode as I believe he used his Shikai against Aizen. I'll make the change. Tinni 13:43, October 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * Just as I was about to modify the trivia, it occurred to me that Komamura's was "defeated" while in Bankai during the latest anime arc when his zanpakuto turned against him. Then I thought to myself, is this really a worthwhile trivia? Do we go around listing when captains bankais are defeated? I mean if this is trivia worthy shouldn't we go add to Tosen's article that Kenpachi is the only one to defeat Tosen's bankai. Should we go mention that Aizen is the only one to conclusively defeat Hitsugaya in bankai (he eventually won against Shawlong, Luppi and let's call his fight against Harribel a stalemate) and that Soifon never won with bankai... at this point I decided that trivia wasn't much of trivia and just removed it. I hope no one has any complaints about that. Tinni 13:50, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Junk trivia clean-up
removed trivia


 * Komamura is also one of the three current captains who doesn't appear during the Turn Back The Pendulum Mini-Series. The other two are Kenpachi Zaraki and Tōshirō Hitsugaya.

Obvious from that fact he doesn't have a Turn back the pendulum arc synopsis and the "one of" type trivia have been deemed junk.


 * Komamura is the only current Captain (counting both the manga and anime) who has not interacted with Ichigo Kurosaki or any of his friends.

Irrelevant and Komamura did interact with Ichigo during the 3rd movie and was present when he was being sent back to the living world, along with Unohana, Byakuya and Ukitake (see episode 63, 39:33).

Lastly, is it worth noting that the Komamura identified himself a "wolf" to Yachiru in the colourful bleach chapters? I ask because I noticed the "fox or dog" debate earlier and well, they are both wrong. He's a wolf, in fact what he said to Yachiru was "I am a wolf, not a dog, Yachiru" (Yachiru calls him Doggie). Tinni 04:08, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

A wolf, eh? Could it be that he's a sort of werewolf? It'd explain some of his rejection issues. TomServo101 15:53, October 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * Could be. I don't know. But it would also explain why he likes mixed breed dogs. I just looked it up and you can't get dog-fox hybrids. Most common mixed breed dogs are all dog-wolf hybrids, less common are dog-coyote and dog-jackal hybrids. Anyway, I do think that it might be a worthy trivia point. I am putting it in. If people think it is junk we can take it ou. Tinni 11:09, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

Profile Pic
It has to go because it looks like it's from an older arc and it's not a very good one. I propose the pick on the right from episode 215 as a replacement profile pic. Tinni 23:23, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

I second the notion. This one looks much better. Minato88 23:33, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I am just going to go ahead and change the profile pic because I really can't stand the old one. Tinni 00:17, November 4, 2009 (UTC)

Enhanced Strength or Immense Strength?
"Enhanced Strength: Due to his immense size, Komamura has unbelievable physical strength........." and "Immense Strength: Even without his Shinigami powers, Ichigo has shown himself to be deceptively strong, as shown from his ability to smash a man's head through a concrete floor....." - Something is wrong here. Komamura should have Immense instead of Enhanced, as his displays of strength are far superior to Ichigo's. In fact, Kenpachi Zaraki's Enhanced should be changed as well for the same reasons, or Ichigo's Immense strength should be reduced to Enhanced and Komamura's to Immense. That way we wont have to go through to change other characters' strength level, as i doubt anyone can compete with Komamura in raw strength Grimmjow2 21:55, November 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * @ Grimmjow, I see u'or point. It was good & I agreed. Therefore I have changed both Sajin & Kenpachi to Immense Physical Strength. I any users here don't like this change please state why, before changing them back. Minato88 23:11, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

Ill leave it that way because i believe its true but your reference as to why it should be is wrong. I dont know how many times i have said do not use something from ichigo's page to qualify the skills of another character. Ichigo has not been properly referenced or had any maintenance and probably wont be in a long time. Therefore its not a good point to base anything off of because the information is largely ambiguous and not correct.Salubri 01:58, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Bankai translation
I've been looking up stuff and it seems his Bankai translation is inaccurate. Could someone give a more accurate one?

Please clarify what exactly you are talking about. What part of his bankai translation is inaccurate and why do you believe so? What's your reference? What is this "stuff" you have been looking up? Different translators usually have subtly different ways of translating things. Generally, when in doubt we go with Ju-ni or Cnet as they have the best reputation for being the most accurate. But without additional information this is a dead issue. Tinni  (Talk)  11:00, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

Well, 'Kokujo' means black rope, right? (probably why his Zanpakuto spirit has a black rope) And we have 'Tengen' and 'Myo-oh'. His Zanpakuto is based on Buddhist deity Fudo Myo-oh '不動明王', so it's got nothing to do with a king (but strictly speaking, it can be 'wisdom king'). I don't know how those can be pierced together, but it looks wrong, unless Kokujo is actually some kind of being. Oh, and the 'stuff' I was looking up was the Japanese for Fudo Myo-oh. 12yungo 04:09, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

Name of zanpakutos often come out not making much sense when translated. That is not strange. I do not have enough knowledge of Japanese to comment much on translation but Ju-ni, who are one of the best translators of Bleach, translates his bankai as "Black-corded wisdom king of divine punishmen". Sleepyfan, who are fastest but not necessarily most accurate, translated his bankai from chapter 384 (same chapter as the Ju-ni referenc) as "Vidyaraja's black ropes of divine punishment". Vidyaraja is a Hindi word, a language I am very familiar with and I assure you the "raja" part of Vidyaraja translates as "king" with Vidyaraja meaning "Great Wisdom King". This is all related to Myō'ō who is Aizen Myō'ō in Japanese (or Fudo Myo-oh as you put it but I have personally never heard him referred to as such) and Rāgarāja in his original incarnation in Hindi. Again the "raja" part means king. One of Aizen Myō'ō other names is Vidyaraja, which is where Sleepyfans translation comes. So if you problem is the "king" part, that part is actually accurate and well explained given who Myō'ō refers to. Tinni  (Talk)  05:38, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

PS. Just for clarity, Sajin's bankai is currently translated as "Heavenly Punishment of Kokujō's King". This does seem like a incomplete translation and so probably should be changed to the one provided by Ju-ni. Also, just in-case anyone is wondering, Viz translates it as "Divine Retribution, Black Ropes of Ruination". Tinni  (Talk)  05:59, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

I talked to Adam and he has verified the correct translation as this:

The kanji and romaji seem correct as are--黒縄天譴明王 Kokujō Tengen Myō'ō--but I would change the translation. I checked the raws, and several sources, including Japanese Wikis, and I believe the translation should be:

"Vidyaraja of Kalasutra's Heavenly Punishment"

Myouou is the Sino-Japanese translation, "enlightened/illumined king," of the Sanskrit vidyarājā "wisdom king." Kokujou is the Japanese name for the Buddhist hell--or Naraka--called, in Sanskrit, Kālasūtra; both mean "black rope(s)/warp." Tengen is the same as in the normal Zanpakutou's name Tenken, though with -k- voiced to -g- between the two names for an unknown reason (Kubo thought it sounded better, I guess). As far as I know, no one else has made the connection Kokujou = Kalasutra, but I confirmed on a Japanese Wiki that they are the same in usage. Adam Restling 23:11, December 30, 2009 (UTC) Salubri (Talk)  06:03, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, yes we understand that we have now just translated something from Japanese into a mix of english and sanskrit (root language of Hindi among other things) but I am sure no one is going to have an issue following the fact that Vidyaraja is a person and is of Kalasutra. Tinni  (Talk)  06:07, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Komamura's shikai wrong
Maybe I'm wrong, but I was reading Komamura's page, and I didn't remember any giant unattached parts so I went and looked back at the manga.

I found this: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/139/12/

I could see how it could be interpreted the way it was, but that's not the Giant's sword, that's Komamura's and those are also his gloves.

The Giant's sword can be seen here: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/149/02/

This is further reinforced by this scene in the anime: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C13Vl10VNww

I didn't want to edit it on my own, since I'm not sure how to describe what his actual shikai is (not even sure if that is his shikai...) But if anything it's more along the lines of Getsuga Tensho. It looks to me like it's some sort of energy wave along the ground.

After due consideation, I'm of the opinion that it isn't his shikai; this is the first time we see him in combat, and he uses no release phrase (he still hasn't); Most Bankai users (Unohana and Ichigo excepted, and he's different) have done that the first time they used Shikai in the series. Also, Sajin's article also contains info on how his Reiatsu damages the immediate area; it seems that this is occuring here. Does anyone agree with this, or am I talking rubbish again? TomServo101 10:54, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

sigh why is it always me. Firstly, Chapter 139, page 12 does show his shikai. I have no idea why Kubo has chosen not to reveal his shikai command yet. The same way I don't know why Kubo has chosen not to reveal command of Unohana's shikai or a the command and name of Iba's shikai. How do I know it is his shikai? Firstly, that is the gaints hand - you are just seeing it from the other side. Here is a few of the giants hands from the other side and as you can see it is the gloves from chapter 139 page 12. Secondly, on page 17 of the same chapter - Komamura says "How is it possible that he can still stand after getting hit from my Tenken", read - "How is it possible that he can still stand after being hit by my shikai". He would not be so freaked out if he hit Zaraki with a sealed zanpakuto and Zaraki brushed it off. In addition, his shikai makes another appearance when he confronts Aizen on the hill. Again, the arm of the giant follows the movement of Komamura. That is the ability of his shikai and if the gloves of the hand look similar to Komamura's, it is because Komamura and the giant do wear the same style of gloves. As I said, I don't know why Kubo hasn't revealed his command. Maybe it is something mundane as Kubo hasn't thought of it yet. I don't know. But that is Komamura's Shikai. Tinni  (Talk)  11:17, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Shikai Gif


You know, this is the only place I have not brought this here yet. That pic of Sajin's Shikai has bothered me since it's been put up. Admittingly, the one that preceded it was much worse, yes, but Tenken's Shikai is an instantaneous release and it needs a GIF, most notably when it was used in Episode 51 against Kenpachi Zaraki. However, I don't know how to make a GIF. If there's someone who can get a GIF of Komamura's Shikai in Episode 51, I'd greatly appreciate it. And I say this this one in particular because the actual attack is seen stemming from the sword instead of randomly summoning a body part (like the current pic is). Arrancar109 (Talk)  06:24, January 16, 2010 (UTC)

I am no good in this department either, this half-baked one is the best I can do. Tinni  (Talk)  08:08, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

Thats not it i think Arrancar may have gotten confused the disembodied arm wasnt shown vs. Zaraki. It was that weird spiritual energy release in anime. The arm was shown against Aizen.Salubri (Talk)  08:13, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, looking back now, it probably wasn't a good example (I think in the manga, it was the sword portion when fighting Zaraki). I think in the entire anime, Komamura's only used Shikai 2 or 3 times (1 against Kenpachi, the current pic, which is against Aizen, and possibly during the closing of episode 61 when he confronts Aizen). It sucks, but it looks like the current pic may be the best we can do, given that Komamura rarely uses his Shikai at all. Since the anime version of his fight with Zaraki altered the shikai a bit, it may not be a good representation of it at all. It doesn't seem likely at this point that we'll get a better shot of it than this. Arrancar109 (Talk)  08:29, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

Actually that is his shikai, that much is made clear in the manga. So it's not just some weird energy release. However, it is true the hand of the giant is not seen. This second gif is the one from Aizen. Again, making gifs isn't my forte. So apologies in advance. Tinni  (Talk)  09:00, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

Ok folks, latests gif is a gif of the exact scene from which we have the shikai picture right now. That's the best I can do I am afraid as the .msk format file I have for episode 61 is not letting me capture any more frames. Apologies in advance again for my poor gif making skills. Tinni  (Talk)  16:21, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

If no one has any objections, I would like to replace the correct picture of Komamura's shikai with the "giant hand" version. It's the exact same pic only animated and thus makes it clear that Komamura's shikai is him attacking with the power of the giant. Tinni  (Talk)  03:52, January 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok folks, I have gone ahead the replaced the still picture with a gif of the giant hand for now. If anyone has any objections or think that the giant sword might be better or something, then we can always undo it and change it out. Tinni   (Talk)  11:45, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Durability
I have seen a similar point was brought up about his strength but i also think recent events should alter his Durability status to immense.

The shot that took down his Bankai from Tosen was proprtionaly done too him, caving in his entire chest, yet not only did it not kill him but he is back up and ready to fight without medical attention. I don't think anyone but ichigo has taken such massive damage and Ichigo normally dies and is brought back!! Just a thought maybe a mention of his recent damage and an increse from enhanced to immense would be plausible. Nick D Wolfwood 13:04, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

That is a good point. Komamura is definitely the type that keeps going after he has sustained alot of damage or even surviving where are others would have probably died. He is tough even for a shinigami or in general. Immense maybe a good way of describing his durability. Salubri (Talk)  18:23, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

With the newest chapter, he showed more of his immense durability, if only for about a page. Aizen cut off his left hand, and even though he screamed, he also immediately counter-attacked Aizen, ignoring the injury for the most part. I added this new instance to his "Immense Durability" section. If anyone wants to re-word it, or even remove it (though I don't recommed removal), that's fine with me...Gerokeymaster 01:54, January 29, 2010 (UTC)

Bankai, possible minor alternate translation
If we are going by a Buddhist interpertation for the theme of Tenken's bankai, then perhaps we should also consider that 天 (Jp. ten, Ch. tian) is also used to translate deva, a Hindu and Buddhist class of supernatural beings that are the rough equivalent of "gods" (which is the standard translation of that word); from this, and perhaps also from its meaning of "sky, heaven", 天 occasionally translates to "divine" in several compounds - including 天譴 Tenken/Tengen ([un]surprising, huh?), in which case it is usually "divine punishment".

Another interesting note: Fudō Myō'ō, the central "deity" and the leader of the Godai Myō'ō (guardians of the Godai Nyorai), who himself guards none other than Dainichi Nyorai, the central Buddha and leader of the Godai Nyorai. How is this relevant? Well, to quote the Onmark Productions article (with my commentary in italics), Fudō Myō'ō "(...) converts anger into salvation (Tousen vs. Komamura, anyone?); has furious, glaring face (What little we see of the summoned giant's face certainly looks... intimidating), as Fudō seeks to frighten people into accepting the teachings of Dainichi Buddha; carries “kurikara” or devil-subduing sword in right hand (representing wisdom cutting through ignorance) (Guess what weapon the summoned giant wields?); holds rope in left hand (to catch and bind up demons) ("Kokujou" = "black rope"; coincidence? Not probably.) (...)". Also, Fudō Myō'ō is often depicted with a black- or dark blue-colored body - similar to the summoned giant. MarqFJA 22:16, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

While I dont at all doubt that this is a true interpretation of what is being put forth as the similarities are far to uncanny. But what exactly are you suggesting? Salubri (Talk)  23:12, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Like Salibur, I am wondering what your point is. Vidyaraja is the name of the diety. Anyone can look up Vidyaraja on wikipedia or do a simple google search and will know that Vidyaraja is a deity both in the Hindu religion and sects of Buddhism. I do not see any reason for us to clutter up the bankai section explaining these things, if that is indeed what you are asking. The rest of what you said is speculation and while interesting cannot be placed in the article. Tinni  (Talk)  02:30, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not too sure what your asking for either. While it is quite interesting, I think this is more appropriate to the Forum:Meaning of names than to Komamura's article. -- Yyp (Talk) 10:29, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

OK, my mistake for doing this while half-asleep and suffering from allergies. In short, "Divine Punishment" is more in context with the zanpakutou's Buddhistic theme than "Heavenly Punishment", since Buddhism also does not have a "heaven" per se. Buddhist "heaven" is the realm of "devas", whereas Vidyarajas are significantly higher up the scale, being either Buddhas or Bodhisattvas, and reside in another entirely different realm. MarqFJA 11:05, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

New Quotes
i was told before posting a qoute i have to discuss it here so

alrite then here i go in ch. 367 page 4 sajin says to hirako i join my blade with yours masked vistor. (read ch. 367 to understand what im saying ch. name is : your enemy is my enemy)

now in my opinion this speaks about sajin`s sense of honor and judge ment. seeing as he himself is a beast he is not quick to judge what others loook like not only that he seems to abide by the age old adage the enemy of my enemy is my friend. another thing is that sajin is quick to realise that if it was not for the vizards interrupting the battle he would have lost control of his anger and attacked aizen and lost. which shows that he knows and is able to admit his faults and in a warrior especially. not only that it also shows he is not to proud to accept help, like some warriors. in the sense by saying it is the battle of shinigami or whatever and also he realises that the more allies on the battle field the better. Tigerman123 22:29, April 22, 2010 (UTC)