Forum:Vasto Lorde

Ok,I'm Confused.Toshiro said that Vasto Lorde are stronger than Captain level Shinigami,but Arrancar are stronger than them, However,Renji,Rukia,Rangiku,Ikkaku,Yumichika,Shihei,Izuru,Soifon's Vise-Captain(I haven't bother remembering his name,cuz he sucks)have all fought and beaten a Arrancar,Some of them beat two! and not a single one of them are Captain class.So are Vasto Lorde weaker than Arrancar,but Stronger than Shinigami? Please explain it.

gohanRULEZ 04:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Simple, no one ever said arrancar are more powerful then a vasto lorde. Arrancar are by the nature of what they are more powerful then a shinigami in that they have access to potentially more power, but that still does not guarantee that they are more powerful then a shinigami, they can obviously hold their own in a fight though. Arrancar are totally not part of the evolution of a hollow and a vasto lorde is the pinnacle of hollow evolution. Technically speaking a vasto lorde could become an arrancar, but an arrancar couldnt become a vasto lorde because In becoming an arrancar hollows lose their ability to continue to evolve (the exception being the 9th espada, as it was explained by him to rukia). So vasto lorde are stronger then captain-level shingiami but their relation in power to arrancar is totally not gaugeable at this point. But most likely vasto lorde maybe of equal or more power then an arrancar.Salubri 05:22, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I understand it(To a point) But to fully Get it,I think I should watched the Fight Between Rukia and the Ninth Espada(who's name I forgot ^^;) Thanks for the help!!

gohanRULEZ 07:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

arrancar are a side step in a hallow evolution. it grants them great power but they lose there ability to evolve (with the exception of no.9 as stated above.)

if a basic hallow were to turn into a arrancar say by the Hōgyoku it would be 10 times more power. but if a casto lord would be turn it would also be 10 times more powerful beating out a captain class in a banki form. but that all depends on the hallow changing. (note the times 10 is basied off a the banki: According to Yoruichi Shihōin, the power of Bankai typically increases a Shinigami's power by a factor of ten. true power change has yet to be stated.)

jasonvigo 20:35, 11 April 2009 (EST)

Well actually it never is stated how powerful an arrancar is but, its said that because its getting spiritual energy from both sides as a normal hollow as well as gaining power similar to that of a shinigami that an arrancar is more powerful then any one of those parts are separate. So yes its stated that bankai increases the power of shinigami by a factor of 10 but thats compared to other shinigami who dont know their bankai, not to any other class. So while a normal hollow turned arrancar could give a normal shinigami a run for their money they can be outclassed by higher seated shinigmai (as has been shown) regardless of the power increase. Its pure speculation on are parts what a vasto lorde would be like, as we know its supposedly more powerful then a shinigami captain the type of increase in power of turning into an arrancar would be great but we havent seen what would happen as of yet. Other then the bankai normal power advancement comment i wouldnt expect any understanding of power levels or nothing like that seeing as the series doesnt seem to deal in that type of classification when it comes to individuals, as they all seem to have room for potential advancement in power. Salubri 02:31, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

If you are reffering to Grimmjow's attack on Kurakara, the Soul Reapers were only using 20% of their strength. Now the Espada definetly fight at the level of Captain.

Vasto Lorde are created by a hollow eating other hollows. If a vasto lorde were the eat another vasto lorde could they become even most powerful.FlaminghorseDecember 8, 2009 (UTC)

I'm already confused... Halibel was a vasto lorde. Some arrancar is possibly weaker than a lt. and lts. are weaker than a captain. And according to hitsu-kun vasto lorde's combat abilities surpass those of the average captain in Gotei 13. Then why did Halibel almost lose to a adjuchas hollow turned arrancar by aizen?? in the past chapter, most of the arrancar were killed by a lt. some of this arrancar were former adjuchas and some espada most possibly the 8th,7th,6th and maybe the 5th who were a former adjuchas were defeated by a captain. Why is that halibel been defeated by an arrancar that was a former adjuchas if her combat abilities surpass those of a captain???? really confusing... Frostymoon August 20, 2010 (UTC)

I think I've found your problem. It isn't that ALL Arrancar are more powerful than VLs. It's just that, say, if a Vasto Lorde became an Arrancar, he/she/it would gain even more power. So if a really powerful Adjuchas became an Arrancar, he/she/it would become as strong as a VL. Get it? The same way Hollowification works for Shinigami, Shinigamification a.k.a. becoming an Arrancar gives a power boost. And the same way a Vizard (Hollowified Shinigami) can put on their mask/ in case of Tosen, use Resurreccion, Arrancar can 'release' their Zanpakuto. BlazeUchiha (Talk)  12:04, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Actually to be clear the issue here is one of power. Harribel was a Vasto Lorde by the very nature of being an Arrancar that one she fought was more powerful then her. This makes what Hitsugaya previously stated not all that accurate as even when a Vasto Lorde class Menos became an Arrancar they didn't pose as much of a threat as he seemed to think they would. To be honest most of his information is second hand as if he was getting it from a textbook rather then actual experience. Seeing the power Harribel had as a Hollow is enough to note that if she faced Hitsugaya as a Vasto Lorde the fight wouldn't have last half as long as it did. So yes it is that an Arrancar is more powerful then a Vasto Lorde that much is clear regardless of the justification an arrancar will always be an arrancar they cant turn it off. yes it true that because of there existence as hollows that gain shinigami like powers they have more power. But that point is that Vasto Lorde have been given a special position as being a sort of pinnacle of power after Hitsugaya's words now they are not so much a danger. Even as Vasto-lorde Arrancar they are somewhat less powerful then ones imagination would have thought. Salubri (Talk)  14:42, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I think Hitsugaya was perfectly accurate in his description. However, his statement was simply taken out of context and accepted literally. Let's take a step back and see the context in which he said it. He was trying to impress on Ichigo the urgency of the situation. As a result he outlined a hypothetical situation that never came to pass. At no point did ten Vasto Lorde face the Gotei 13 together. In addition, if we assume that Hitsugaya was only thinking of the Gotei 13 when he said that 10 Vasto Lorde could destroy Soul Society, then we also have to assume that he was thinking of the Gotei 13 with 10 captains with 12 vice-captains + 2 seated officers from the 11th who are known to be vice-captain level vs 10 Vasto Lordes. If that was the case, it is very likely that he dismiseed the 12 vice-captains + 2 seated officers from the 11th who are known to be vice-captain level because under normal circumstances, vice-captains are not matches for the vasto lorde. So he was thinking 10 captain vs 10 vasto lorde and he was thinking that some of those captains would not be able to win against the vasto lorde and that other captains would then have to fight multiple vasto lordes and as a result, there is a good chance that a good number of captains would end-up dead.

What actually happened, was that FOUR vasto lordes faced 6 captains + 4 vizards captains + 4 vizard lieutenants + Omaeda. Of the three, Harribel survived Hitsugaya's ultimate attack, sure she had to be freed by Wonderweiss and I am in the camp that says that if Wonderweiss hadn't turned-up we would have a frozen shark on our hands but she did survive it. Barragan survived a direct hit from Soifon's bankai, yes the first time he mitigated the damage and he might have also mitigated the damage the second time but he did survive it. Starrk took on two vizard captains with shikai + mask and survived. He also held his own against Ukitake and Kyoraku together. Granted, there is a good chance that if Wonderweiss hadn't showed-up, Starrk would have been defeated but Starrk was fighting at par with two captains in Shikai. Wonderweiss got taken out by Yama-jii but seems to have defeated Kensei, a vizard captain with bankai (who knows if he pulled his mask on or not) but being taken out by Yama-jii with a special hakuda attack is in itself a great honour because it is Yama-jii we are talking about.

The problem here is that people expected Vasto Lordes to rake-up a body count of Gotei 13 captains. I am even hearing complaints that Aizen wouldn't have to one-shot so many Gotei 13 captains if the Espada had been allowed to take out some Gotei 13 captains. However, on the other side of the coin, people like poor Hitsugaya is being declared weak because "his ultimate attack didn't leave a scratch on Harribel" not to mention that there are still people who think Harribel freed herself from the ice, despite the manga making it clear that Wonderweiss freed her. So this is the problem facing Kubo. He showed clearly that the Gotei 13 and Vizards had to struggle to win against the Espada + Wonderweiss. To me that is a testament to their power. Because Vasto Lorde arrancar or not, they were greatly outnumbered by opponents that worked together. Came to each others aid, when the Espada were more or less on their own. Wonderweiss was the only re-enforcement and the only assistance they were going to get if they were in trouble. So from my point of view, taking everything into account, the Espada did well against the odds they faced. The Gotei 13 + Vizards struggled appropriately but did win in the end. Hitsugaya wasn't necessarily wrong in his assessment. The Gotei 13 just never faced ten vasto lorde on their own. The Vizards turned the tide of battle, in Fake Karakura. Who knows how things would have gone down if they hadn't showed-up. I have always believed the top three to be Vasto Lordes and the how the battles played out made sense to me and nothing that's happened invalidated with Hitsugaya said and if you think about it, think of everything that happened in Fake Karakura, you'll realise that I am right. The Arrancarised Vasto Lordes weren't weak. It's jut really hard fighting against a group that presents an united front when you yourself are something of a lone-ranger. Only someone ultra powerful like Aizen could win in a situation like that. Tinni  (Talk)  00:52, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Tinni is right. While I would of preferred a more sanquine victory for the Gotei 13 there is no doubt the top 3 Espada made them work for it.

In open battle Starrk effectively won against no less than FOUR captain class opponents, two of them elder captains and the others empowered Vizards. It took a bushwack and a bizarre Shikai to bring Starrk down.

Barragan was playing cat & mouse with his opposition (two captain level and one lieutenant level shinigami) and it was obvious they were overmatched. Only the actions of a quickthinking Vizard sorceror turning Barragan's power against himself allowed them victory. Otherwise they were dead meat.

Harribel fought her opponents (a captain class shinigami and two Vizards) to stalemate.Its true she needed help to escape one of her enemy's attacks but she was also the lowest ranked Espada on the battlefield. She was betrayed by her own side before she finally fell.

You can argue the details but overall the Gotei 13 was beat to an inch of its life in the war for Karatura Town and that was before Aizen stepped in. Great Cthulhu (talk) 02:58, August 21, 2010 (UTC)