Talk:Hohō

Why?
Why is this list incomplete? I'll put the names of those who are not here, which I will be referring from their very own pages. Just make the necessary changes if I will make any mistakes. --Agate genbu 11:53, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Hohō vs. Shunpo
I'm really tempted to change Hohō to Shunpo everytime I see it in an article. Literally no one calls it Hohō. The specific technique used literally every time is Shunpo. It would be like calling every bakudo and hado spell "Kidō", without saying what spell it was. CorpusDei 04:19, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Just wanted to address this before I closed this off. Shunpo is not the only hoho technique and both Byakuya and Yoruichi have used non-Shunpo Hoho techniques. Besides which, "footwork" was called hoho in the manga. So this complaint is without basis. Tinni  (Talk)  00:36, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Ichigo's Ranking
Bankai Ichigo is faster than Bankai Byakuya, so how can Byakuya be considered a master at Hohō? Either Ichigo and Byakuya are both masters, or they're both Experts. I'd say they're both masters, but what do I know? CorpusDei 04:23, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Ichigo isn't even on the list anywhere. I'd say he should be up there with the "masters", especially with his bankai/hollow mask (although he's fast without those as well. He also subconsciously stood on air when he was fighting Inoue's brother Sora/Acidwire. I moved Hanatarou up from no skill to...practitioner, I do believe, since he can use shunpo, as seen when he and Byakuya are traveling to Hueco Mundo. It's just that he's slow.

The point is being missed without Bankai Ichigo is just an expert. Not only that even with bankai he is not knowledgeable in the various techniques of Shunpo as Byakuya is. This entire listing is based on what they are at basic levels and what skills they actually have. Not according to how fast they get in bankai. Also Hantaroru has stated he is no good a shunpo, and he in fact runs everywhere cause he can't even keep up with Shunpo users.Salubri 04:37, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Does slow = no skill
Alright, point taken on Ichigo. However, even though Hanatarou is slow, he can still use it, unlike Yachiru and Kenpachi (except for the 1st movie). Perhaps the text under the "No Skill" section should be changed to include something along the lines of "...possess little to no skill..." --Watchmaker163 04:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Lets put it to rest Chapter 300 page 3 Hantarou actually says he doesn't know shunpo. Salubri 04:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Meh, alright. The translation I read was different, and I thought he was using shunpo. Watchmaker163 05:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Yachiru
I thought Yachiru could use shunpo. She's extremely fast isn't she? Tinni 13:32, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually if you notice she never is shown using it, at most she is really fast like zaraki but not as fast to use shunpo.Salubri 15:07, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I thought she did use shunpo to stand on Ichigo's shoulder when they first met (http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/1/104/5) but she could have just jumped. She did run to Rukia's execution and didn't shunpo. So I guess at this stage it's probably safest to say neither she nor Kenpachi can shunpo (although as pointed out Kenpachi did use shunpo in the movie). We'll just have to wait to see her do some actual fighting before it's confirmed whether or not she can shunpo. Tinni 04:11, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * As for now there really is not much info on her fighting powers. Whether she can, or cannot use shunpo is still unknown. All we can say is she has never been seen using shunpo. As we know the other three of the top four members of the Division (Zaraki, Ikkaku and Yumichika) use have a way of devilitate themselves, so when we see her fight or when someone actually says she can't do it then we'll know for sure. WhiteStrike 04:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd take yachiru out of the whole list since parcticly nothing is known of her abilities (accept that she can run like crazy) ,but it could be either or... so removing her now is not (in my opinion) a really bad thing! --Cyberflame 13:09, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Yachiru is seen to flash step onto Kenpachi's shoulders at the end of episode 98 of the anime, after she bows to the defeated Ichinose Gmanzap24 12:18, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Ok right now this has reached the point of ridiculous. Yachiru was clearly using Shunpo in the resent anime episode (245). Yes I am aware it's a filler episode but we aren't talking about a fancy new technique or anything. We are talking about a basic technique all shinigami are suppose to have. I saw that err on the side of caution in this case is to list her as being a Practitioners until we are explicitly told otherwise, like in the case of Hanataro - who came out and said he didn't know shunpo. Alternatively, drop her from the list because right now it's giving the impression that we know she can't do it and we don't. Indeed, all evidence of "official but not Kubo" sources says she can. Tinni 04:08, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I have taken Yachiru off the list of "people who haven't learnt shunpo" because frankly that's speculation as well, especially in light of the anime. The current anime arc might be filler but it is still an official enough source that we can't rightly leave Yachiru on the list any more. I propose that we not comment on Yachiru's hoho abilities at all until we see something in the Manga. That is the course of least error at the present point in time. Tinni 02:45, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. I'd rather err on the side of caution than speculate needlessly. Twocents 03:41, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

In line with the new anime policy, Yachiru Kusajishi has been added to the list of Hoho practiciners. Tinni  (Talk)  00:11, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Kenpachi
I was just curious if anyone noticed Zaraki using shunpo in ep199 while fighting Nnoitra, does this technically count, since the fight was in the manga and we can clearly see him doing it? AuronValentine 19:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Not sure that counts since it's not in the manga and i think it was mentioned there that he doesn't use most of the shinigami skills.--SalmanH 13:17, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

In line with our new anime policy, I have removed Kenpachi's name from the "doesn't know hoho" skill. However, I have no added him to "practices hoho list" because while he knows it, he can't really be said to be a practiciner due to how seldom he uses it. I am closing this topic off until we learn more. Tinni  (Talk)  00:36, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Marechiyo Ōmaeda
Why is he an expert i mean come on ikkaku and yumichika are put on bproficient and ur telling me Marechiyo Ōmaeda can keep up with people like love and rose who were former captains and have hollow masks?

I don't believe we've ever had solid information on what exactly his limits are, except that he can outrun Nirgge, and for all we know that wasn't his fastest. Besides, he wouldn't be in such a high position in the O-Kudo if he wasn't suitably proficient in it. TomServo101 23:28, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Once again! Hoho skill level is based on knowledge and skill level. As a member of a the omnitsukido, Omaeda is highly skilled and knowledgeable in the art of hoho. That is why he is ranked what he is. Tinni  (Talk)  00:36, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

But it clearly says that omaeda is a liutenant only because he has a rich family and he wanted the position of liutenant?


 * You are mistaken. It does not clearly say anywhere the Omaeda is a lieutenant because of his families connections. His family is rich and that allows him to spend money improving his divisions headquarters and hiring a personal secretary etc, etc. It does NOT mean he can buy himself into the position of Soifon's Vice-captaion OR the Captain of the Omnitsukido patrol unit. I might also add that both these positions are highly dangerous and that if Omaeda wasn't any good. He would be dead by now. Marechiyo Ōmaeda is a skilled lieutenant and chief among his skills is hoho, the speciality of his division and the omnitsukido. Tinni   (Talk)  04:51, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

He has connections but he has to be able to survive in the division and the special forces. He is a proven lieutenant, despite your or anyone's personal feelings for him, thats not what is used to determine whether he is capable he expressly states that he is proficient in that chapter where he shows his skill in the fake karakura town arc, despite his inept attitude in most things.Salubri (Talk)  02:39, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Walking in air speculation
"Though never stated clearly it most likely relates to the Shinigami ability to walk on air using spiritual power. By collecting and solidifying Reishi beneath their feet, Shinigami can gain traction on thin air to either freely move about or to stop themselves from falling. "

I just removed the above from the article. We do not allow sentences with "most likely" in them in other pages, I don't see why we have to allow it in this article. If it was never made clear whether the whole "walking in air" thing was Hoho related, then we simply don't put it in here. Alternatively, we find a way to state this without using the phrase "most likely". Tinni  (Talk)  00:22, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

clones
Adding to the list of techniques under Hoho. Should not the technique that Soi Fon uses against Sosuke Aizen be included; this technique being the one where she makes several clones of herself?

On that account, should Sonido Gemelos also be added to list of these techniqes?

Evil 1 (talk) 18:51, January 8, 2011 (UTC)

As the clone technique was not named, or specifically identified as Hoho, we'll refrain from including it until we get further clarification in the form of a databook or something. As for Sonido and Gemelos, we just finished explunging Arrancar and Espada from the Zanjutsu article and the reason for that is that Hoho, Hakuda, Kido and Zanjutsu are Shinigami skills. We will not be including Arrancar/Hollow skills in these articles. Tinni  (Talk)  19:09, January 8, 2011 (UTC)

Way of Onmitsu, 3rd of the Shihou
I distinctly remember Byakuya pronouncing it in the anime as "Onmitsu Hohou", not "Onmitsu Shunpo". What's the basis for using the latter? MarqFJA (talk) 02:57, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

Probably cause the anime is not the primary point of information used on this site. A read up on the manual of style and policies of the site could have explained this. Manga as the material that is written and drawn by Kubo is the primary source of information and therefore takes precedent over any conflicting information presented in a episode of the anime. Further more this is something referenced therefore easy to look up.--Salubri (Talk)  03:22, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

Well, as long as you're 100% sure that Kubo didn't retcon the name in the later volume version, like with Harribel's Proyectil/Ola Azul. MarqFJA (talk) 22:29, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

Senka
Probably an old topic to bring up, but I don't see it here... I really don't see why Senka is placed under Hohō. The only "footwork" is moving a few milimeters from the opponent, then swinging their blade. Wouldn't it be more accurately classified as swordsmenship? After all, it's not the footwork, but the positioning and the angle in which the blade makes contact with the opponent, making it Zanjutsu. Plus, Senka wasn't ever officially stated to be a Hohō technique, and if it was, I apologize for not knowing. See, I'm a Bleach fan, and even I wasn't sure about that. What's going to happen when a person first getting into Bleach is going to think when he sees that? I ask that someone either put some sort of reference to where Senka was officially stated to be Hohō, and if that can't be provided or proven, then for accuracy's sake, Senka should be moved to the Zanjutsu page. --Seireitou-shishō File:Seireitou's signature picture.jpg (My True Identity 23:03, June 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, I'd like to add that, using pure logic, Hohō isn't even needed for Senka itself. What if, say, Byakuya was right next to someone? Would he actually need to back up, and use flash step to use Senka? To produce the same results? No. I'm sorry if this sounds like boasting, but considering I'm somewhat of a martial arts expert, even I know that this sort of technique is all dependent on the sword's attack, rather than movement. In no logical way does Senka make sense to be a Hohō technique. --Seireitou-shishō File:Seireitou's signature picture.jpg (My True Identity 23:07, June 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * Senka is the movement to the back and sealing the Chain Binding and Soul Sleep. If just the soul sleep and chain binding are sealed without the movement, it is not Senka.--

That doesn't make any sort of sense, and you know it. Senka would be the sword art of cutting one's soul chain and sleep, the speed movement doesn't have anything to do with it. Besides, if anything, Byakuya's usage of it throughout the series, and subsequently the definition for Senka on this wikia, would be logically considered a Hybrid Technique; being a combination of Hohō and Zanjutsu. Using your logic, you're basically saying that if Yoruichi uses Shunkō without actually fighting hand-to-hand, then she isn't even using Shunkō, since you've all classified it as a hybrid of Kidō and Hakuda. My point is, Senka, as defined here and used by Byakuya, makes much more sense in being a hybrid technique, Zanjutsu and Hohō. --Seireitou-shishō File:Seireitou's signature picture.jpg (My True Identity 23:25, June 19, 2011 (UTC)

This is basically the point. First of all this is where you went wrong alot of the bases for your argument stem from your own logic which is flawed because your going on the basis from what you know in reality or how you think the techniques works. Senka is a high speed movement technique not because any one of us says so but because in manga, anime and databooks its shown and/or stated to be such. Page 183 of Bleach Databook souls states that Senka is a technique where byakuya strikes his opponent from behind using shunpo and destroys the opponents saketsu chain and hakusui soul sleep with a single thrust. It makes no mention of zanjutsu. we know for the same reasons that shunko is a hybrid of kido and hakudo, as it has been stated as such numerous times. So yes it is officially considered a hoho technique as hoho is the name for all high speed fighting movements based on shunpo or flash steps, also stated in the same book, page 97. If you wish to debate the logic of it then Kubo would be the one to complain to as its his call.--Salubri (Talk)  00:09, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

They've summed it up pretty well. If needed I'll go in and add some references later, I recently watched one of the episodes where it is stated to be a shunpo technique, and if Byakuya was standing beside someone and wanted to perform Senka he would indeed use flash steps to get behind them then thrust his sword through the correct places. Otherwise he wouldn't be using Senka.Licourtrix (talk) 02:00, June 20, 2011 (UTC)

Picture
Just noticed from the Techniques Page, that the picture for Hoho was Love Aikawa picking at his ear... does this have anything at all to do with Hoho? Sicarius001 (talk) 21:33, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

ha, no it doesn't, but I don't see any images on the techniques page are you sure that's the page you were on ?


 * The read more sections pick a random image from the target page to display. There is no way to control which it picks unfortunately. In your case, it picked Love's profile picture to display.--

Godisme is right, that's just his character image. When a character is listed as an expert or master their image is placed there. The image of the character is usually the image from their character page, and that is Love Aikawa's. The read more section just chose that picture randomly from the Hohō page.

Ok, did not know... i thouhgt the image was at least supposed to do with Hoho, and not characters. My bad. may i request this edit to be closed?

Confusion
Why is Ichigo listed as an expert in shunpo when he was faster than Byakuya in their fight? This makes no sense and the reason given is that he is faster than Byakuya but not as knowledgeable. That makes no sense at all as Kouga Kuchiki was listed as a master and all that was displayed was that he was on par with Byakuya. If Kouga is a master of shunpo then Ichigo undoubtedly is. By your definition, only those who know the molting cicada and shunpo clone techniques can be considered masters, therefore Ukitake and Shunsui can't be masters either as they haven't showed an increased knowledge.
 * Ichigo has little skill in Shunpo. The reason he can move so fast is due to the ability of his Bankai which allows him to move and fight at enhanced speeds. This however is not Shunpo.--

If Ichigo has little knowledge then why is he even listed as an expert? DO you not see the hypocrisy? He was trained by Yoroichi in shunpo, therefore his speed is from his mastery of shunpo. Even if he wasn't trained in shunpo by yoroichi, when Ichigo transformed into a hollow in his fight against ulquiorra and used his high speed it was called sonido even though he had no training in it at all. Therefore, it's only logical to assume that any high speed movement done by a shinigami, inspite of having no formal training, has to be considered shunpo.
 * No, as I said, Ichigo is not a Shunpo master. He was trained by Yoruichi and has attained enough skill in it to be considered an expert, however, he does not use Shunpo while in Bankai. This is the ability of Tensa Zangetsu, it compresses all the power of a Bankai into a small form, greatly enhancing Ichigo's speed and power. He is not using Shunpo but is rather relying on his own natural speed to move around. Shunpo is a specific technique, it is not just fast movement. Please actually read the series before making posts.--

Wow, instead of having a civilized discussion you resort to making false assumptions that I have not read the series in order to feel superior in some way? Anyways, shunpo is defined as the art of fast movement, therefore a shinigami moving exceedingly fast is considered to be using shunpo. Ichigo's bankai does compress his reiatsu into a small form giving him a boost in his speed and agility (shunpo: the art of fast movement and agility). It is a false assumption to say that Ichigo only uses his natural speed through no technique whatsoever and only his own natural speed to create after images and is not using shunpo. That is like saying that Ichigo did that by running very fast and not using shunpo even though shunpo is defined as running very fast!

Also, why is it that Ichigo is not using shunpo when he leaves after images and outmaneuvers byakuya but when other captains move quickly it is considered shunpo? Does it have to be said right after that they are using shunpo for you to believe that they are using shunpo or can you just assume it? He is a master and this article should reflect that.
 * Alright, I am closing this discussion as it is obvious you do not understand what is being said. Shunpo is not just fast movement. It is a technique useable by Shinigami which allows them to move great distances in one step. Again, not just fast movement. Ichigo's Bankai allows him a different form of high speed movement called Hyper Speed Combat. It is different from Shunpo. End of discussion.--

About Zaraki Kenpachi...
I know this has been brought up before, and it was supposedly fixed, but I don't see Kenpachi on this page. I mean, if you're gonna include Hanataro under the No Skill category, why not Kenpachi? He meets the criteria of having trained to move fast without Shunpo. Xilinoc (talk) 15:06, November 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * One, you should remember to include a title to any new topic that you add in a talk page. Two, you raise a good point. MarqFJA (talk) 08:59, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

The Kenpachi heading above explains that in the blue box and last post --SternRitterÄs (talk) 14:39, November 9, 2012 (UTC)

Section Names
I noticed that the Hohō page, along with Zanjutsu and Hakuda, each repeatedly use "Shunpo master", "Hakudo expert", and so on each section next to the user. I think its redundant to keep saying that over and over. I think we should just say "expert", "master", and so on. Steveo920, 7:55, December 6, 2012

Retsu
Retsu a master?

Should he be in the master class as her healing trainer is noted for his Flash Step.


 * Please sign your posts so that it is clear who is posting. You can do this by typing four tildes ( ~ )at the end of your post or by clicking the signature button above the edit window. Regarding your query, Unohana was taught healing techniques by Kininji. She was not noted to have been taught any Shunpo techniques by him. Him being very good at it does not reflect upon her. We can only put her down based on what she has been to be capable of shown thus far. 13:53, December 12, 2012 (UTC)