Bleach Wiki:Translation Corner/Archive 1

Shinigami/Hollow hybrids
Note: For the sake of convenience, within this discussion (and hopefully within the rest of this site in the future), Shinigami/Hollow includes the two current subtypes:
 * Hollow-Shinigami: Shinigami who have obtained Hollow powers, e.g. Visored.
 * Shinigami-Hollow: Hollows who have obtained Shinigami powers, e.g. Arrancar.

Hollow-Shinigami or Shinigami-Hollow?
I thought there was a crucial difference between " Hollow-Shinigami hybrid " and " Shinigami-Hollow hybrid ", being that the first species name in each classification is the subject's original one. Or was Tousen somehow a Hollow all along?! MarqFJA 19:40, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

If you read the SS arc when Aizen is explaining to Ichigo about Hollowfication and all that he used the term Shinigami-Hollow Hybrid to refer to his hollows whom he had been experimenting on. (CH 175, page 11) So the opposite Hollow-Shinigami hybrid is the one for Shinigami. I know its confusing It took time for me to wrap my head around it as well but thats what is said. Salubri (Talk)  20:53, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

That's not what I got from Tinni on the Resurreccion talk page (see Section #13: Trivia of that page; it's still there), at least as far as the site's general policy towards "hybrid" terminology. And I've checked up on the chapter you mentioned; I think he too uses two different terms for each type. See here and here. My guess that he's differentiating between "Shinigami/Hollow" (The backslash seems to indicate interchangeability), "Hollow-Shinigami" (e.g. Vizards, Tousen), and "Shinigami-Hollow" (Arrancar, Metastacia [failed prototype]). MarqFJA 21:36, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

Well Im not entirely sure what the situation your talking about with Tinni. What I do know is with the two examples you have given you still have to understand the context in which he as talking. The first one isn't really specific he is talking of power and first uses a a shinigami power system so that its understandable what he is talking about, as it is the only structured power system we know. He then says the only way is hollowfication apparently hollowficatio is what he means are is saying as you look at the * sign not the shinigami-hollow hybrid that we see. That seems a translation misstep, of course you'd know better then me. Thats what I get in any case. The other one is him specifically identifying in conversation that Shinigami-Hollow hybrid in reference to a hollow. He only interchanges with the understanding that both are aims of achieving greater then normal power. Salubri (Talk)  23:01, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

The topic is still there on the Resurrecion article's talk page, so you can check it (as I said, it's under Section #13: Trivia). And no, I don't really know any better than you. I'm just speculating that the first "Shinigami-Hollow hybrid" phrase is used by Aizen in a general context to include all hybrids of Shinigami and Hollow, regardless of what the original base was, before he goes on to describe the two primary ways to achieve the end result. That's why I figured using the backslash could help separate between the term's general and specific context, on grounds that the symbol would denote interchangeability of word order (i.e. Shinigami/Hollow = Hollow/Shinigami, but Shinigami-Hollow =/= Hollow-Shinigami).

And I somehow doubt that the * note indicates a "translation misstep"; if the translator(s) noticed it was an "error", and had the time to put a margin note to "notify" us, then why didn't he/she/they just fix the "error" in the first place? Seems more like the margin note is there to preempt (from the translator's POV) possible confusion as to what he means by "Shinigami-Hollow hybrid" (again, in the translator's POV). Of course, it could help if we had the raws for these pages. I seem to remember that "Hollowification" is specifically a term for the Visored's donning of their masks - "horoo-ka" (ホロー化, lit. "change/transformation into a Hollow") is used at least one anime episode title to mean "Hollowification" (if you haven't noticed already, I'm sorely handicapped by the lack of Bleach anime-manga localizations), and anime Mashiro specifically uses "horoo-kasuru" (ホロー化する, lit. "to change/transform into a Hollow") when she notices Love Aikawa's preparation to "hollowify" in self-defense against Hollow Ichigo's imminent Cero attack, so if we can confirm that the original wording in the first Chapter 175 page that mentioned above was indeed ホロー化... MarqFJA 23:59, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

Well I read the other page and there seems to be some accurate statements mixed with some inaccurate ones though the discussion there is purely on trivia matters so thats somewhat off topic. But im referring to seeing Shinigami-Hollow Hybrid* and then seeing the Hollowfication. Im not certain of the context of that but in any case the point is that Tosen is basically named a Hollow-Shinigami hybrid on what Aizen says in the next portion. He specifically identifies his hollow experiments as Shinigami-Hollow Hybrids. I guess the idea is that base goes last. I cant really account for the first page you put up. Im just going by what he gives in specifics to that point which I do believe is the only time he specifically uses the terms in referring to either sub-species. Thats really all we have to go on. Salubri (Talk)  00:21, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

True. Which leads to another issue: I think we could use a "Shinigami/Hollow hybrids" article that briefly describes the concept behind the hybridization (as per Aizen's words, plus whatever bits info mentioned later on), briefly outlines the types of hybrids (with details left to the already existing articles) and Aizen's failed experiments ("zanpakutou-destroying" Metastacia, the "reiatsu-invisible" Hollows), as well as explaining the "correct" terminology for denoting specific types of hybrids on the site (to avoid the same confusion that I had made). we really need guidlines for that last issue, at the very least. MarqFJA 00:34, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

Ill see about working something out. It will require some searching through the manga to be accurate and mixing of existing pages to one point. But Ill come up with something. Salubri (Talk)  00:46, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

Right. Discussion closed, I persume? MarqFJA 01:41, February 9, 2010 (UTC)

Canonical terminology
I finally managed to acquire raw scans of the two pages that I had brought up in our "Hollow-Shinigami hybrid" discussion on Talk:Kaname Tōsen, and confirmed that the original terms used by Aizen are as follows:


 * Shinigami no Horoo-ka (死神の虚[ホロウ]化) - "Hollowfication of Shinigami".
 * Horoo no Shinigami-ka (虚[ホロウ]の死神化) - "Shinigamification of Hollow(es)".

Note: The kanji 化, when used as a suffix, is virtually equivalent in purpose and meaning to English "-ification". As we can see, the term "Shinigamification" is actually an official/canonical term, contrary to original belief.

Now, if someone can accurately translate the rest of Aizen's words...

PS: In which specific chapter were the Arrancar's nature first explained as Shinigami-Hollow hybrids? I'm thinking of digging up the raws to compare the original terminology used. MarqFJA 18:23, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Well thats interesting and new I'll have to talk to the other admin about what you have found, though it seems he didn't give an actual term to what such a being would be called but rather the process in creation. Using what you found cant be obviously used to describe a species. As far as the other stuff if you can find the chapter i will also ask Adam if he can check as well what the issue of Aizen's concept of the arrancar situation. Salubri (Talk)  18:33, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

True, but it provides a canonical basis for "hybrid" classification. by Aizen's own admission, his experimental Hollowes are attempts (though failed) at combining Hollow and Shinigami, using the former as the basis; thus they could be included under a generic "Shinigami(fied)-Hollow hybrid" category, as well as the more successful Arrancar. On the other hand, "Hollow(ified)-Shinigami" would include the Vizards, Ichigo Kurosaki, and Kaname Tōsen; note that I separated the last two due to inherent differences from the first group: Ichigo is heavily speculated to be a more "perfect" version of what the Vizards had become, and whatever was done to Tōsen had obviously put him somewhere beyond them, too (Resurreccion isn't a standard Vizard power).

BTW, MangaHelpers has loads of raws for both Bleach (and various other manga), so maybe it could serve as our primary quick source of raws. MarqFJA 20:13, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

If someone could give us specific chapter/page numbers, it would be very helpful. In this case the above prompted me to think of, too: I can't remember, but the full transformation of Pluses into Hollows--hasn't this also been referred to as Hollowfaction (虚(ホロウ)化)? And the Visored/Ichigo use it to refer to donning their masks, too, even though they don't *really* become Hollows? I can't remember.

In Ch. 175 pg. 10 Aizen indeed calls it Shinigami no Horouka (死神の虚(ホロウ)化) "Hollowfaction of Shinigami" or "Shinigami (adj.) Hollowfaction (n.)," and on pg. 11 the opposite Horouka no Shinigamika (虚(ホロウ)の死神化) "Shinigamifaction of Hollows" or "Hollow Shinigamifaction," as Marq cites above. In the ch. where Hitsugaya tells Ichigo about the Menos classes (197), he refers to the Hollow > Shinigami transformation, though, as Arrancarifaction (破面(アランカル)化 Arankaruka), and this is the only term directly related to the Arrancar I've seen (Aizen's reference was more vague). It may be worth noting that neither hybrid has shown to fully gain the powers of the other (e.g. Arrancar Zanpakutou don't have indwelling spirits, Visored don't *seem* to have ultra-fast regeneration)--special, yet-enigmatic cases like Tousen and Ichigo notwithstanding.

Maybe it's best, again inspired by what Marq said, to refer to these canonically *by* the canon terms he cited, and then list Visored as the most prominent examples along the lines of Shinigami Hollowfaction, and Arrancar as the most along the lines of Hollow Shinigamifaction, but cite that the former call their abilities simply "Hollowfaction," while the shift from Hollow > Arrancar is often simply called "Arrancarifaction."

If people think we *have* to make clearly still-Hollow experiments like Metastacia etc. into some kind of "hybrid" category, I guess we could. But I'd just class them as experiments as, like I said, they were clearly still Hollows, if with special abilities. They probably wouldn't even count as pseudo-Arrancar like Grand Fisher, though. Adam Restling 10:24, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

It's Hollowfication/Arrancarification (-fy / -fication; the i is added when preceded by a consonant), not Hollowfaction/Arrancarifaction.

If what you say about Arrancarification is true, then it seems my personal pet theory has been proven true: That Arrancar are not actual hybrids, but merely the Hollow counterpart to Shinigami.


 * 1) By definition, a Shinigami/Hollow hybrid should be able to use the abilities that are characterisitic of each "race".
 * 2) The Visored definitely fit the bill, since they are able to use their Zanpakutou and can use Kidou (Hachigen is the only example I can think of right now), and can use Cero while donning their Hollow Masks, while at least Ichigo has also proven that Sonido is usable by a Visored, though he only demonstrated it in his new, Resurreccion-like Hollow Form. If Resurreccion is possible for Visored (Tousen notwithstanding), then perhaps their use of Sonido is restricted to that form, though that's all speculation.
 * 3)  Adam Restling and  Salburi, in a rely to a query by  Minato88 here have suggested that, among other things (like the the "opposition-relationship" between Shinigami, Hollows and Hybrids), the relationship between a Visored and their inner Hollow may be the inverse of that between a Shinigami and their Zanpakutou, which begins with understanding (learning their name/Shikai), and is followed with subjugation (learning Bankai). In other words, they have to first dominate it (The Visored/Ichigo acquiring their Mask-donning ability), and then somehow "accept"/"understand" it (Ichigo's New Hollow Form? Resurreccion?). Depending on future events, this might explain why Cero is the only true Hollow ability in the Visored's arsenal.
 * 4) However, the Arrancar are an anomaly in this regard: About the only powers they have that comes close to being Shinigami-derived are their Zanpakutou, Sonido (vs. Shunpo) and Cero/Bala (vs. Hadou), and even those are both radically different in their underlying principle and are, in the latter two cases, usable by non-Arrancarified Menos (Grimmjow's Fraccion "instant movement" to bow in front of him during their first meeting seems similar to Sonido). Even Edrad Liones declares that an Arrancar's zanpakutou is the complete opposite to a Shinigami's own.
 * 5) And then comes Toushirou's words: He says Arrancarification, not Shinigamification, implying that the two processes have inherently different results.

I thus ask this question: If the Visored use true Hollow abilities in addition to their original Shinigami powers, and yet Arrancar do not use any Shinigami abilities, then how can either one be the "antithesis" of the other? It seems to me that Arrancar are actually the antithesis of Shinigami, and the only actual hybrids until now are the Visored, Ichigo and Tousen (the last two may or may not be Visored-type hybrids). Perhaps one needs to have either Shinigami powers or the potential to do so to become a hybrid; has it been stated that a Plus that has dormant Shinigami powers lose them upon turning into a Hollow? MarqFJA 11:03, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

I don't have much time now, so some quick comments:

I use -fy/-faction on the basis of putrefy : putrefaction, petrify : petrifaction, which implement the same Latin forms, because I wanted the syllabification (< there I used it XD) to better match the Japanese morae. Ho-rou-ka : Hol-low-fy/fac-tion (I only save one syllable on the latter from -fication but I figured, hey, why use a longer form if the shorter -faction is available?).

Arrancar do seem to get most shortchanged in their hybridization. More later :). Adam Restling 12:00, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

The imperative inflection of Japanese verbs
Since I see some confusion lingering on these, I thought a (*hopefully*) quick guide on them could help. This is related to, and for a greater part duplicates, my post here in the other place where the imperative conjugation is involved. I thought it wise to post one in both places because, though related, the two topics aren't immediately apprehensible to the browser as being related.

As in many other languages, Japanese verbs inflect to reflect mood, tense etc. The moods that concern us most with both Shinigami and Arrancar Zanpakutou release calls are the indicative and the imperative.

Most Zanpakutou release calls are in the imperative mood: the wielder is commanding the Zanpakutou to manifest in its normal, unsealed form with the call. The form the inflection takes also depends upon what kind of verb it is: consonant-stem, vowel-stem, or irregular.

Though the only consonant Japanese words can end with in modern times is n, the verbal stem, being a stem and not a true, full word, is analyzed as ending in a consonant before it receives the appropriate suffix. Please note also that some consonant-stems are hard to tell from identical looking vowel-stems--e.g. some verbs ending in -ru are the former, some the latter--and these should be looked up individually. Also, some verbs which ostensibly end in a vowel, such as iu "say, speak," are classed as consonant-stems, with the consonant manifesting as a w < u in derived forms, such as the negative i w anai "not say/speak" (stem iw- + negative consonant-stem verbal suffix -anai).

For consonant-stem verbs, the imperative is formed by adding -e to the stem

ex: Momo Hinamori's hajike, imperative of hajiku (stem hajik-) "snap, flip" (transitive)

For vowel-stem verbs, the imperative is forming by adding -ro to the stem

ex. Aizen's kudakero, imperative of kudakeru (stem kudake-) "break" (intransitive)

For irregular verbs the forms are, as the name suggests, irregular:

kuru "come" forms its imperative in koi; its stem, though, is usually ki-

suru "do" (also used to make nouns, especially foreign-derived nouns, into verbs, e.g. aisuru "love" [verb] < ai "love" [noun]) forms its imperative as either shiro or seyo (cf. the release call of Tatsufusa Enjouji's Houzan, ranbu seyo "dance madly" [ran "wild, mad, crazed" + bu dance + seyo]); its stem is usually shi-

There are some exceptions to these rules amongst the Shinigami. One of the most notable is Shunsui Kyouraku's Katen Kyoukotsu, whose release call includes verbs in the gerund (midarete "swirling/swirl[s]" < midareru "swirl, churn, be in disorder or chaos"), the infinitive (naki "singing/sing[s]" < naku "sing; make a sound [animals]"), and plain present indicative (warau "laugh[s]"). However, most seem to use the imperative.

Please note also that Japanese, being the language of a society in which social class and formal mien is deeply engrained, also has many levels of usage for words, including verbs, depending upon whether one is amongst friends in a casual environment, or with a superior etc. (cf. how in English, you probably wouldn't call the big boss "dude!" XD). In Japanese, thus, usage of the plain forms of words is considered informal and, especially, the plain imperative or command forms are considered quite rude--commands in a society that so-values politeness are unsurprisingly prickly. However, most/all the Zanpakutou release calls we have so far are in the plain imperative (or indicative) forms. Perhaps a subtle nod to the informal and intimate relationship one shares with its wielder (at least for Shinigami)... ?

At any rate, it's those plain forms I've discussed above. If you've any questions, please let me know either here, or in replies to this very topic section.

EDIT: Sorry, I realized that when referring to a "flower wind," midarete is better translated "swirling," like flurries of snow or wind, then it is by "churning" :) . Since either may refer to turbid confusion or roiling activity, what was being so described should dictate which of the semi-synonymous verbs is used. Adam Restling 11:03, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Resurrección translations.
The Japanese Kanji for Ulquiorra's second Resurrección, as well as Tousen's Resurrección, both translate as "Swords Release" rather than "Returning Blade" in the case of the usual Resurrección. Meaning there is a difference.

This info should be on both the Resurrección and Tousen Pages. It's on Uquiorra's page, but it isn't pointed out clear enough.

Go check the RAW manga pages yourself. This is not speculation. You seem to be to lazy to check yourself so why are you assuming I don't check my facts?

帰刃 - return blade

レスレクシオン - Resurrección

刀剣解放第二階層 - sword release second level

レスレクシオン・セグンダ・エターパ - Resurrección Segunda Etapa

刀剣解放 - sword release

レスレクシオン - Resurrección

Retrieved from "http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Salubri" Tari101190 20:58, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Tari is correct, as I also noted in one of my posts to Minato yesterday. An excerpt:

It's also worth noting that whereas most times, Resurrección (帰刃 (レスレクシオン) Resurekushion) has the underlying kanji "return blade," when Tousen says "Resurrección" in this ch. 385, the underlying kanji are "sword release" (刀剣解放 (レスレクシオン))--exactly as they were in the underlying kanji of Ulquiorra's Resurrección (Segunda Etapa)!

For the full post and details: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Minato88#You_said_you_were_confused_about_Tousen.27s_Resurrecion.3F

As Tari and I pointed out, the normal underlying kanji of Resurrección is changed from "return blade" to "sword release" when used for Ulquiorra's Resurrección Segunda Etapa and Tousen's special hybrid/"Visored" Resurrección. Not sure how you'd want to note this in the actual "Resurrección" article itself, but it is interesting, and so probably worth some explanation in that article.

As for being "lazy," Tari, I doubt it's the case. Some don't have access to the necessary linguistic resources or data/guide web sites, and even if they do, they may fall victim to mistakes or misinformation some of the less-accurate of such resources abound in--especially if they lack the background in Japanese to be able to tell what's correct. I sometimes have trouble finding raws, as many of them must be acquired through the hassle of downloads and perusal of hundreds of pages of manga (since tankoubon and other arrangements can affect page # etc.). We that can, or have an easier time with it, do because we can, even if parts of the quest can be taxing. Adam Restling 06:42, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Adam, this is significant enough that it should be noted in the trivia section. What it means if anything is anyone guess, but more or less the meaning of resurreccion may have changed for all we know. Whats interesting to note is that japanese writing uses kanji which are ideographs from chinese characters. While they are both different in the word resurreccion as you have noted the katakana is still the same for both. Weird even though i already know kanji signifys nouns, adjectives, verbs and japanese names while katakana is just used for syllables and foreign names and words as well as animals, plants and what have you. Salubri (Talk)  06:53, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Kaname Tosen's Resurreccion
The spanish translation for Grillar Grillo means "coruscating cricket," so why is it that it says "Bell Cricket, Hundred Style." 月光ヒレ 02:09, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

See Talk:Kaname_Tōsen. Twocents  (Talk)  02:11, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Just one quick addendum: the underlying kanji of Grillar Grillo in the present article were accidentally placed in the column for "release command" together with Suzumushi Hyakushiki. The way it should be is:

column: Release command

Suzumushi Hundred-Style (清虫百式 Suzumushi Hyakushiki)

column: Resurrección

Grillar Grillo (狂枷蟋蟀 (グリジャル・グリージョ) Gurijaru Gurījo)

column: Spanish for

"Chirping Cricket"

column: Japanese for

"Crazed-shackle Cricket"

In the above, you may translate Suzumushi as Bell Cricket, or keep it as Suzumushi (since it's his Zanpakutou's name). Lemme know what you choose. For more details (if wanted), still check here: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Minato88#You_said_you_were_confused_about_Tousen.27s_Resurrecion.3F

Of course, we have no idea if Suzumushi Hyakushiki is the release call, or if it's just the preface to the release's actual name. Tousen has always been an odd bird like this. For example, you'd think Suzumushi's release call to Shikai was "chime" (nake), but that seemed less like a release and more like the command to send out that hypersonic wave that knocked out Ishida. And then he says "Suzumushi Nishiki: Benihikou" to perform one move, and then "Suzumushi Tsuishiki: Enma Koorogi" to release his Bankai. But, until we get better data, it's probably safe to keep calling "Suzumushi Hyakushiki" the (de facto) release command. Adam Restling 07:02, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Can't we all assume that Tosen's release command for his Resurreccion is the exact same for his Shikai: Cry' (鳴け, nake). superlogan7437 23:35, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

We can't really assume that since he has only said "Suzumushi Hyakushiki-- Grillar Grillo". He did not necessarily command for the release, he immediately released it. "Suzumushi Hyakushiki, Grillar Grillo" is the name of the release, but no part of it is the actual command. --Gold3263301 00:52, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

In my own personal opinion, I don't think the release command should be Suzumushi Hyakushiki. If you think about it, it is very irregular for a release command to be a noun (which Suzumushi Hyakushiki is one). It might be an exception, but I wouldn't state the release command to be "Suzumushi Hyakushiki" just yet unless it is absolutely made sure that it is an exception due to "special" conditions. --Gold3263301 00:59, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter what we think guys. Whether we like it or not, or whether its sounds right or not doesn't matter. He used "Suzumushi Hyakushiki" as his release command. Noun, Verb, Adjective, it doesn't matter. Kanames commands and fighting abilities have been weird ever since his fight with Kenpachi. Anyway, until we have reason to believe otherwise, "Suzumushi Kyakushiki" remains his release command. Minato  (Talk)  01:10, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Baraggan, Findor Carias, Ggio Vega and Poww's Resurreccións, (possible) mistakes
1. "滅亡の斧" does not translate into "Downfallen Axe"; rather, it translates into "Axe of Extinction". It both makes more sense than the original "translation" and fits with his Grim Reaper theme.

2. The pronunciations Pinzagūda and Tiguresutōku makes me think that the intended Roman-letter spelling is Pinzaguda and Tigrestoque, not Pinza Aguda and Tigre Estoque, since that last ones should logically be pronounced Pinza Agūda and Tiguru Esutōku.

3. The kanji gloss given for Calderón, 巨腕鯨, literally translate to giant (巨), arm (腕) and whale (鯨), respectively, so I'd say that the entire kanji name is supposed to mean "Giant Armed Whale", or "Armed Giant Whale"/"Gigantic Armed Whale" (to avoid confusion with "Giant-Armed Whale"). If "Giant Whale's Arms" was the intended meaning, then it should've been 巨鯨腕, not 巨腕鯨. MarqFJA 02:16, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Pinza Aguda and Tigre Estoque are alright the way they are. Remember that Arrancar Resurreccions are based off on Spanish words, in this case Sharp Pincer and Tiger Rapier respectively, whereas your suggested Pinzaguda and Tigrestoque are not spanish words. Romanization is a complicated matter, if we went directly with the Katakana, Szayel's name would be Zaeruapolo instead of Szayel Aporro. There are different ways of interpreting Katakana and Hiragana, depending on the context and the mangaka, you shouldn't really take the kana's so literally. Lia Schiffer 03:03, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

I know all that. But I was thinking that maybe Kubo put the pronunciations that way to give us a hint that the names are supposed to be portmanteaux (in the Resurreccion's case) / composite names (in Szayel's case, i.e. "Szayel-Apporo", kinda like many French and Spanish given names). MarqFJA 03:15, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

It's difficult to say, but for those specific Resurreccions, their names are said in two parts in the anime. The idea of Kubo using portmanteaux is interesting, and it is quite a coincidence that the only two Zanpakuto that follow that contain two words (pronouns excluded) follow that pattern. Unlike Arrancar names, Kubo's never spelled out a Resurreccion's name in plain English, so it's hard to say. Mohrpheus 01:19, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

Update: added Barragan's Gran Caida.

I have those two parts, and the pronunciation used supports my arugment. I think that's enough justification to alter the spelling for now, until an official one is actually given; don't you think?

And is it just me, or is everyone pointedly ignoring the part about Calderón? MarqFJA 21:25, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand your point on Gran Caida. Are you arguing pronunciation or meaning? And I didn't touch your point about Calderón because I'm not well-versed in Kanji interpretation, so there was nothing I could add onto that, I just went fair straight to Pinza Aguda and Tigre Estoque, and again I'm strongly sure that they're meant to stay as separate words. It wouldn't be the first time a zanpakuto has long name, take Katen Kyokotsu or Sogyo no Kotowari. And many Arrancar attacks and techniques have long names, take Lanzador Verde, Ola Azul, Cero Oscuras, Lanza del Relámpago, to name a few. I'm a natural Spanish speaker, let's leave the Spanish words the way they are instead of trying to tweak them based on Romanization that has proved to be tricky more than once. That's my opinion on the matter. Lia Schiffer 03:28, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

I fail to see how my point on Gran Caida concerns its pronunciation when it's revolving completely around the kanji. And you could just consult Wiktionary or any available online Japanese translator; I recommend Tangorin.com, which also has a dedicated forum.

On another note, while I wouldn't argue about your examples, there's a simple fact that you're missing (aside from the other fact that none of their pronunciations even suggest that they are intended to be portmanteaux): In virtually all Hollow/Arrancar ability/Zanpakutou multiple-word names, whenever the words are supposed to be separate, there's an interpunct (・) that separates the relevant kana. The only exceptions to that involve definite articles in the beginning of the name, such as Los Lobos and Del Toro, which Tite Kubo seems to have decided to treat as part of the word they are affixed to (personally, I think that's a plausible approach). Pinzagūda and Tiguresutōku do not have interpuncts separating any of their kana, in addition to the whole pronunciation thing. MarqFJA 11:24, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Gran Caida is more contentious, as the genitive particle no is also used extensively to form adjectives from nouns (cf. the discussion on Sode no Shirayuki). Thus, while more *literally* "axe of downfall/ruin", the kanji can also mean "downfall(en)/ruin(ed) (adj.) axe (noun)," and there's no way save from Kubo we can confirm exactly which was meant. 滅 metsu can stand for either "ruin, fell (something)" or passive "be ruined, fall down, a downfall"; 滅亡 metsubou means "downfall, ruin," and seems generally to be passive "a being ruined/felled."

The kanji of Calderón as "giant-armed whale" is correct, based on their order you cited.

Though Tigre~ should be Japanese Tigure, you're right that Kubo goofs these (e.g. Cero Doble  where it should be Japanese Dobure but Kubo writes Doburu). His lack of an interpunct in these is odd, because as was said above, it *should* really be Pinza Aguda and Tigre Estoque, and Kubo usually saves his "portmanteaux" for the wacky Hollow names. Difficult to tell. I would elect to keep them as is, just as I would to keep the spelling of Arturo Plateado's sword, even though Kubo wrote it as though it were Spanish Feniche. Besides, I don't think there are words like *Guda and *Stoque existing in real Spanish, so if we smashed the renderings together as *Pinzaguda and Tigrestoque, we'd have produced nonsensical pseudo-words while, again, Kubo mainly sticks to real (if sometimes misspelled) Spanish--at least for Hollow swords and techniques. Adam Restling 10:15, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the context allows for the kanji to mean Downfallen/Ruined Axe; I mean, the axe itself doesn't look decreipt or something, right? And 滅亡 metsubou does mean "extinction" in addition to "downfall, ruin, destruction". Aren't we supposed to go with the choice that is most plausible/sensible in the absence of other evidence?

Re. Doble: Wow, I never knew that. This puts things in a slightly new perspective.

Re. Arturo Plateado: Is Feniche even a word? Boy, either Kubo's taking a little too much artistic license or he has worse knowledge of Spanish than I thought. BTW, how did you guys come to conclusion that it should be spelled Fénix? MarqFJA 11:53, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Well, Baraggan's release call is "rot" (intransitive), i.e. not "rot something," but commanding one to "rot" itself. And he turns into a desiccated skeleton. So I think "downfallen/ruined axe" is more appropriate, because it epitomizes Baraggan and his weapon as the great specter of the ruin that looks like has struck him (his own decayed-looking body) and which will then be spread (Respira, anyone?) upon his foes like a pestilence: they will join him in "ruin." Metsubou is not glossed "extinction" with any currency; "extinction" is usually glossed for danzetsu, haizetsu, shoutou, inmetsu or zetsumetsu--though the last two indeed include metsu, the compound metsubou ([be] destroy[ed]-die) itself is usually used of something's disastrous collapse or ruin (intransitive/passive), as I said earlier.

Fenic(h)e does not seem to be a real Spanish word. They chose Fénix "phoenix" on this site and Wikipedia because of a) the underlying kanji 不滅王 "undying/indestructible king" (the phoenix is immortal by resurrecting itself--and yes, that is 滅 metsu again in 不滅 fumetsu "not-being destroyed"), b) his Resurreccion includes wings (the phoenix was a mythic bird), and c) there is no current Spanish word *Fenic(h)e and so Kubo's phonetic rendering Fenīche was taken as an error.

This last point is of no great controversy, as examples like Doble above show. Compare also Kubo's phonetic rendering of Harribel's technique Cascada. Though based on Spanish cascada, this is pronounced (roughly) "kahs-KAH-dah," whereas Kubo's katakana spelling カスケーダ Kasukēda has apparently blended the pronunciation with the English cognate cascade (roughly "kas-KAYD"), with the -kē- part sounding almost like "kay," not Spanish "kah." Not to mention, say, rendering Spanish Quinto (Espada) as Kuinto when the Spanish word begins not with the sound kw but k--this last also shows Kubo's mixing of Spanish genders (quinto is masculine "fifth" while espada "sword" is classed a feminine noun). Adam Restling 03:44, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Just a little word on Fénix/Feniche. Feniche means Phoenix in Italian, but the Italian pronunciation would be roughly Feh-nee-keh (though, just like Nnoitra's Quinto, we know how much Kubo minds pronunciations). So it means the same as Fénix in Spanish. And the words "Guda" and "Stoque" don't really exist in Spanish (that's what I've been trying to say all the way, for the love of Ulqui...) Lia Schiffer 04:05, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense. And again, while we know Kubo massively distorts and stylizes real words/names to produce the exotic, single-language-transcending names of his Hollows and Arrancar, he sticks to real Spanish (mispronounced/misgendered though it may be) for their techniques and stuff, so it wouldn't make sense for him to suddenly, say, go Italiano on a word or two. The lack of interpuncts and mashing-together of the words is odd. My best explanation is that Kubo tried to "cheat," since the first words of each technique name end in the same vowel that the second words begin with: thus Pinza Aguda gets "shorthanded" > Pinsagūda instead of Pinsa・Agūda, and Tigre Estoque likewise > Tigurestōku instead of Tigure・Esutōku--note, of course, that the rendering of -que as katakana -ku here is another mistake, as the closer-to-Spanish rendering would be -ke. Adam Restling 05:08, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

I keep getting "extinction" as a possible translation for either "滅亡" or "metsubou" whenever I google them; maybe it's figurative. In any case, if Downfallen was actually referring to Baraggan, then it could've made sense, but it refers to the weapon that he uses in his Resurreccion form. MarqFJA 10:40, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Then mayhaps the more ostensible meaning of no--the genitive rather than the adjectival--is best, sic. "Axe of Ruin/Downfall." After all, Gran Caida's purpose against enemies, especially in line with Baraggan's theme of decay, is to "fell" his foes, even as Respira is to rot and "ruin" them. In light of these considerations, I would recommend the translation "Axe of Ruin." And that's odd, Marq: the first hit I got when I googled metsubou indeed gives it as "downfall, ruin," as does my usual, trustworthy Japanese-English online translator and my copy of Nelson's The Modern Reader's Japanese-English Character Dictionary. I don't know why you keep getting "extinction/destruction" as the sense with primacy, rather than as a secondary, broader sense. But, then, I suppose any word with a meaning having to do with "destruction" could be construed to have this broader sense or that narrower sense without much ado. However, really, the general usage of metsubou is for specifically "downfall, ruin," with other words (cf. my list above) being used, similarly specifically, for "extinction." Adam Restling 04:38, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Axe of Ruin' it is, then. Now, do we have to wait for a mod to second this suggestion, or what? MarqFJA 07:17, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Not usually; you two know a lot more about this than the rest of us, so imo I think we can trust you to do things like this without our say-so.TomServo101 11:25, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Murcielago's release command, alternate interpetation
While "鎖す" (tozasu) does translate literally as "bind", I recently found another possible meaning for it, via the synonymous and homophonous 閉ざす (tozasu) (source: Tangorin.com, and confirmed by Google search results). While the latter also has the same literal meaning, it also acts as an Japanese idiomatic phrase meaning "(to) plunge (in grief)".

I always thought it was odd that Ulquiorra's release command seemingly did not have even a remote relevance to his zanpakutou's name, its powers or himself. In light of the above, however, it all becomes more sensible: The reveal of his Resurreccions "true" form, the Segunda Etapa, is preceded by him saying that he'll show Ichigo "true despair'" - essentially "plunging" Ichigo into "grief" as he realizes the hopelessness of opposing Ulquiorra. MarqFJA 22:05, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

Ulquiorra's release command was matter for discussion since it first came out in the manga, since the verb Tozasu can be translated as "to close, to lock, to enchain", and the Cnet translation was actually Enchain, but I'm not really sure as to why we kept Bind as the official translation, check Ulquiorra's discussion page. But the one you're proposing uses a different writing than the one used by Tite Kubo, and since this is so far a written manga and not a spoken anime, the fact that they're homophones is not really relevant, but the writing is very different, so I doubt that's what Kubo intended to be the release command. Lia Schiffer 03:46, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't have bothered if it was only a homophone, but it is both that and a synonym. Everywhere I checked, the two kanji's verb forms have the same pronunciation and the same meaning of "bind, enchain, shackle". This reminded me of how some kanji burrowed pronunciations and/or meanings from others, and makes me suspect that we are faced with a similar case. It may be that Kubo decided to use a less common kanji for the verb instead of the usual one. MarqFJA 10:36, March 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * We will only use what Kubo wrote, no matter how odd it may seem to anyone. Since he wrote 鎖せ (this article and his character article give the kanji as 鎖せ, not 鎖す as you say above), we will use that and its translation. Nothing else. And as to the oddness of the word, Ulquiorra says something about sealing away Ichigo's life just before boring a hole through his chest . -- Yyp (Talk) 10:51, March 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Like Adam says in the post below, 鎖せ is the imperative form of 鎖す, so I'm still using what Kubo wrote. What is at issue here is the intended meaning. I don't see what "sealing" has to do with "binding", or how Ulquiorra's comment is relevant to the release command. All he did was use a Cero Oscuras; at least Zommari's Amor "suppressed" his enemies' control of their body parts, and Szayel's "sip" command easily pertain to the rather disturbing way he releases his zanpakutou. MarqFJA 12:51, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, when read tozasu, these are interchangeable. If it were up to me, I would translate it "enclose" because--though no single word can cover both the ostensible meaning "close, shut" and "plunge (someone) in grief," I think "enclose" comes closest to the original and the figurative (i.e. grief/despair enveloping someone, suffocating them, as might the black wings of the devil ;) ). But, for the above reasons, I wouldn't just use "envelop" as that's too far from "close, shut," etc. So I would do tozasu (imperative form tozase) as "enclose." Adam Restling 11:19, March 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Exactly. Translating it as enclose does work too. MarqFJA 12:51, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

The imperative inflection of Japanese verbs
Since I see some confusion lingering on these, I thought a (*hopefully*) quick guide on them could help. I plan to put a copy of this post in the other place where the imperative conjugation is involved, the Zanpakutou talk page.

As in many other languages, Japanese verbs inflect to reflect mood, tense etc. The moods that concern us most with both Shinigami and Arrancar Zanpakutou release calls are the indicative and the imperative.

Most Zanpakutou release calls are in the imperative mood: the wielder is commanding the Zanpakutou to manifest in its normal, unsealed form with the call. The form the inflection takes also depends upon what kind of verb it is: consonant-stem, vowel-stem, or irregular.

Though the only consonant Japanese words can end with in modern times is n, the verbal stem, being a stem and not a true, full word, is analyzed as ending in a consonant before it receives the appropriate suffix. Please note also that some consonant-stems are hard to tell from identical looking vowel-stems--e.g. some verbs ending in -ru are the former, some the latter--and these should be looked up individually. Also, some verbs which ostensibly end in a vowel, such as iu "say, speak," are classed as consonant-stems, with the consonant manifesting as a w < u in derived forms, such as the negative i w anai "not say/speak" (stem iw- + negative consonant-stem verbal suffix -anai).

For consonant-stem verbs, the imperative is formed by adding -e to the stem

ex: Ulquiorra's tozase, imperative of tozasu (stem tozas-) "enclose, close, shut"

For vowel-stem verbs, the imperative is forming by adding -ro to the stem

ex. Yammy's buchikirero, imperative of buchikireru (stem buchikire-) (colloquial) "be(come) enraged, flip out, fly off the handle, lose it (one's temper)"

For irregular verbs the forms are, as the name suggests, irregular:

kuru "come" forms its imperative in koi; its stem, though, is usually ki-

suru "do" (also used to make nouns, especially foreign-derived nouns, into verbs, e.g. aisuru "love" [verb] < ai "love" [noun]) forms its imperative as either shiro or seyo (cf. the release call of Tatsufusa Enjouji's Houzan, ranbu seyo "dance madly" [ran "wild, mad, crazed" + bu dance + seyo]); its stem is usually shi-

Please note also that Japanese, being the language of a society in which social class and formal mien is deeply engrained, also has many levels of usage for words, including verbs, depending upon whether one is amongst friends in a casual environment, or with a superior etc. (cf. how in English, you probably wouldn't call the big boss "dude!" XD). In Japanese, thus, usage of the plain forms of words is considered informal and, especially, the plain imperative or command forms are considered quite rude--commands in a society that so-values politeness are unsurprisingly prickly. However, most/all the Zanpakutou release calls we have so far are in the plain imperative (or indicative) forms. Perhaps a subtle nod to the informal and intimate relationship one shares with its wielder (at least for Shinigami)... ?

At any rate, it's those plain forms I've discussed above. If you've any questions, please let me know either here, or in replies to this very topic section. Adam Restling 11:03, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

EDIT: I realized this is probably also of importance. Japanese phonology is arranged into the so-called Gojuuon ("fifty sounds"). I believe it goes in the order, by horizontal column, with the vowels a, i, u, e, o first. Then, each vertical column, beneath these, features the vowel of the top column combined with an initial consonant (e.g. one column is ka, ki, ku, ke, ko etc.). Other entries in the Gojuuon are included for things like the final nasal n.

With this underlying system, Japanese analyzes the consonants as the same underlying phoneme (basic sound value), despite how it may come to be pronounced phonetically based on surrounding elements. That is to say, even though the consonant t is pronounced "ch" in front of the vowel i, and "ts" in front of the vowel u, Japanese analyzes all three of these pronunciations as merely allophones ("other-sounds") of one basic consonant, t--just as English considers the t in tip and the t in station both to be the letter t, though the former remains "t" and the latter is shifted by surrounding sounds/factors to sound like "sh."

Thus, the infinitive of the verb katsu "win" (kat + u > ka-tsu) is not pronounced *katsi or *kati, but kachi (< kat + i), and the stem -t- is evidenced in the negative form katanai "not win."

The same thing causes underlying s's pronunciation to shift to "sh", as in kaesu "return (something)," infinitive kaeshi. Adam Restling 11:03, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Harribel's release call: "Attack" or "Destroy"?
Has it been officially established that Tiburon's release command is "attack"? I read the translation by Ju-ni and they translated her command as "destroy" in two instances: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/354/19/ and http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/355/13/. Would someone who knows about this like to check it out? Thanks. Benihime101 05:09, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Cnet says it's destroy as well (on both occasions). Since we have the two most highly reputed translators/translator groups calling it destroy rather than attack (which I believe was what Sleepyfans originally called it), I'll change it. -- Yyp (Talk) 15:15, March 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * List of how it was translated by the scan groups: Cnet, Ju-Ni and Franky-House  translated it as "Destroy", Maximum 7 as "Avenge" , and sleepyfans as "Attack" .  Yyp  (Talk) 21:03, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

I already read the "Release command" discussion, and though I don't check the Ju-Ni or Cnet versions because I'm too lazy to search for them, I know that they are the most reliable sources and stuff, but well... I don't speak Japanese at all, the little I can comprehend from my daily anime comes from self-teaching and stuff, but in most animes, the word "ute" is translated as "Attack" (you know, your usual battlefield with all the army and the commander exclaims "Ute!" usually fansubbed as "Fire!" or "Attack!"). I know it's fansub and fansub is never reliable, so I checked some online translators, I copy-pasted the characters (討て), and the three of them threw me "attack" as the direct translation (Babylon says "attack, avenge, take revenge, but that's not important), so could we reconsider on this one? Yes, I know Sleepyfans mess up all the time, yes I know Ju-Ni and Cnet are the most reliable translators out there, and I'm aware that we can't really rely on internet translators, but as far as I knew, "ute" does mean "attack", but could we check with Adam Restling, who seems to solve out every trouble with the japanese translations, or any other person who knows anything about translating? Just saying. Attack also seems more related to the Shark concept than Destroy. Lia Schiffer 06:58, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Uhm... could I get some sort of answer to this? I know the admins are busy and stuff, but I would like to know if there is any possibility of the matter being discussed (even if the discussion above was just closed, yes, I read it) Lia Schiffer 21:47, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

I checked up Tangorin.com, which has been quite a reliable online Eng-Jap/Jap-Eng dicitionary/translator for as long as I have been using it, and while 討つ (the infinitive tense of 討て) does normally occurs in its literal sense of "attack" (and any appropiate synonym thereof), it can also mean "destroy", which is probably a figurative take on its original meaning. Perhaps it is more fitting than the plain "attack" for Harribel's shark theme, considering the relative "destructive" power the larger predatory members (namely the great white shark and tiger shark) have on their prey. MarqFJA 00:07, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

I posted my thoughts on this on Salubri's new Translation page. The link is here. Please forgive any typos and its brevity, as my browser is kind of sluggish right now. I'd've liked to give a more thorough one if I could at the moment. Adam Restling 05:39, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

The above was moved from Harribel's talk page as it seemed pointless to have this discussion fragmented in two locations. Tinni  (Talk)  10:00, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

At Salubri's suggestion, I leave my thoughts here. But, as some may be unfamiliar with this new page, I'll put a link here in the item on Harribel's talk relating to this.

There are many Japanese verbs, with different Kanji and quite easy-to-conflate meanings, that may be read utsu. The one in question here, at least the character, is held to have combined the radical for "word(s)" with "hand/measure," speculated to have been phonetic to express "reproach" and/or "act with care" (Henshall 1998). Perhaps the most ancient meaning, then, was "attack with one's words, defeat in a debate." Today, in Japanese, the most basic and current meaning does seem to be "attack." Extended and extra meanings, such as "destroy" or "defeat" (whether it be in an argument or by physical force) should, perhaps, be put aside here as additional. "Attack" seems the basic, best form... it even nicely recalls the Japanese in its cadence: at-TACK, (imperative) u-TE. Regardless of the habits of the sharks the weapon took its inspiration from, "attack" also seems good in relation to the quick, savage shots she deals with it. I'd almost have suggested "strike," but that, too, would be straying from the basic meaning a little, and doesn't have the ring attack : ute I cited above. Adam Restling 05:34, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

OK, Thanks for the answer. Attack does make more sense than destroy in my opinion, and I've always seen it used that way. I'm just waiting for the admins to reply to this, since last time I checked they were keepink Destroy as the official release command for Harribel. Lia Schiffer 07:55, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

There is no doubting that it can mean either. For some reason the reliable, reputed translators thought that Destroy was more appropriate. I dunno. I'll see what others think. Might be worth mentioning in a reference tag. -- Yyp (Talk) 21:09, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Tiburon's technique: La Gota
There is no dispute that the kanji gloss for the technique's name, 戦雫, can be literally translated as "War Drop"/"Drop of War". However, there seems to be also a subtler meaning behind the choice of characters.

The kanji 戦 has an older, traditional form: 戰, which, while bearing the same meanings as its descendant, is used rarely nowadays outside of historical contexts and feudal-era works. The kanji 戰 itself is classified as a "compound character" – specifically, a "phono-sematic compound". Here, the 戰 character's phonetic part is 單 ("single, individual, lone"), while the semantic part is 戈 ("spear, halberd, lance"); it wouldn't be farfetched to conclude that 戰 originally used to stand for "a single spear". (The character 戰 is also said to have been used to mean "use various weapons to beat one's enemy to death or into submission".)

Now, let us take note of the La Gota ability itself. Setting aside the shark-tooth similarity for a moment, the are reminiscent of a launched spear -- or its relative, the harpoon. It is thus my belief that the choice of 戦 in the name is less for its commonly used literal meaning, and more for its roots as a compound character – that the name 戦雫 is supposed to be taken figuratively, as "Harpoon Raindrop" (apparently, 雫 does carry the meaning of "raindrop"). MarqFJA 23:32, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

Well, a ton of Kanji/Hanzi are phono-semantic graphs, so this is not so unique. When a pictogram wouldn't do, e.g. you can draw a tiger, but you can't draw "love"--expressive elements for such abstracts were created and combined in interesting ways to express said abstract principles/feelings etc (as well as to supplement these semantic or "meaning" elements with phonetic or "pronunciation" data), though the exact function of these elements was sometimes lost to history. It'd be like if you used a picture of an eye to write the word "eye." Then say you wanted to write the first-person pronoun word "I." Since it sounds the same as "eye," you could throw the picture of the eye onto the side, diminutive, to express the "sound," with some larger symbol signifying that, though pronounced *like* "eye," the meaning intended in this second graph is "I, me." 戦 and its older forms pretty much stand for "war, battle": the on reading sen features in senso "war, warfare," and the kun tatakau/tatakai is frequently found in BLEACH to refer to characters' battles. The origin of its graphic makeup, i.e. why the character (and so the notion) is written as it is, is interesting, but should probably have little influence on our translation's interpretation.

Compare, e.g., the character 天 "heaven, sky." The most ancient forms of this graph show a human shape with an exaggerated disk for a head. Ancient evidence intimates that the original meaning this graph was meant to show, then, was "god" (< "great crowned humanlike"/"humanlike being whose head is raised lofty" ?). The only meaning generally given it in modern Japanese, though, is "heaven/sky" (the height wherein such a god might dwell, the elevated). So if it's used, must we ponder that it was really meant to mean archaic "big head" or "god"? We cannot do so without more signs from the author about their intent. Currency would suggest, though, we keep it with its ostensible, modern meaning. I fear that going further than maybe a little mention of the graphic history of characters like this, at most, would be to falsely ascribe these ancient notions to their modern meanings, when it seems like, to even the Japanese, something like the graph 戦 basically means just "war/fight(ing)." The common person would likely be ignorant of its archaic developments. Besides, then we'd have to go back and include such "anciently this meant ~" on every other character of every other name--seems a herculean, and perhaps confounding and ultimately of little value, endeavor. I would reserve such ancient-exploratory entries for harder-to-trans words with more nuance, e.g. kami or Jigoku (in jigokuchou).

My chief source has it that, in its oldest recorded/recoverable form, the graph was actually two halberds, later reduced to one and complemented by the radical "simple" you mentioned (as "single"), which itself was originally a bident forked spear; the meaning "unit, simple" apparently came to it for mostly phonetic reasons (i.e. it sounded like a word for "simple"). It seems that after the ancient form of 戦's reduction from two to one halberd, the "simple" radical was re-added to make up for the "halberd" that was lost. A pair of halberds became > "crossed halberds" > "clashing weapons" > "war, fighting (in general)." The actual word the graph was meant to represent in Chinese is said to, likely, be derived from "tremble, fear" (> "fearsome conflict" > "war"), comparable in the passage to Greek polemos "war" which is said to derive from a root for "tremble, fear" (Schuessler 2007). Note how, in many cases, a character's phono-semantic development/origin needn't mesh with the word it writes's phono-semantic development/origin, as here a word likely originally meaning "something to be feared" > "war" is written with a graph that originally meant "paired halberds."

So, with the Spanish La Gota being "the drop," and my data cited above for the underlying Kanji, I would say, in all currency, said underlying Kanji, 戦雫 (雫, as Marq said, being "drop, drip(ping), trickle"), should be retained as "war drop," with no more esoteric or archaic meanings to be posited without more proof, like form Kubo's specifications. Adam Restling 10:22, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Kirikaze the "last Toujuu" name meaning
According to the Japanese credits (though blurry), Kirikaze seems to be "mist wind" (霧風). If how you guys described his techniques is correct, it's apt, if semi-blah XD. Adam Restling 12:04, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

"Sode no Shirayuki" mistranslation
袖白雪 translates to "Sleeve's White Snow"/"White Snow of the Sleeve". The possessive particle "no" operates backwards in comparison to its English counterpart "of". MarqFJA 11:17, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I would like a second opinion on it first. I'll ask Adam Restling if he can confirm this. -- Yyp  (Talk)  11:55, January 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Episode 117 translates Sode no Shirayuke to "Sleeve of White Snow." Manga Chapter 201 page 16 translates it to "White Snow's Sleeve." SerialSniper14 12:16, January 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but the the anime sub & manga scans are not official translators and have no connection with Kubo/anime staff. We've had this problem with them getting character names wrong before (mostly Arrancar), but I'd be really, really surprised if SnS was mistranslated. What does the Viz version translate it as? Anyway, I asked Adam, so I'll wait until he replies on this. -- Yyp  (Talk)  12:37, January 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you sure the one's responsible for those translations are reliable? Because basic Japanese grammar still strongly disagrees with them. And, Sougyou no Kotowari is of the same structure, and yet it's consistently translated as "Truth of Pisces". Consult any Japanese dictionary, and you'll find that "Sougyou" = "Pisces", and "Kotowari" = "Truth".
 * Besides, in every other instance the possessive "no" is ever used elswhere, whether in Bleach or another anime/manga, it's always "Alpha-no-Beta" = "Alpha's Beta". MarqFJA 12:41, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

I do believe that MarqFJA is correct. If it was meant to be "sleeve of white snow," it should probably have been Shirayuki no Sode. When the genitive particle no follows a noun, it is generally used to form this noun into a kind of pseudo-adjective, e.g. a phrase like mirai no kuruma "future car" (i.e. "car of the future"), where mirai "future" is a noun, and no is used to connect it to kuruma. Compare English it's a guy thing wherein guy is a noun, but is used as kind of an adjective to qualify thing, i.e. it's a guy's (kind of) thing.

Translations as "sleeve of white snow" or synonymous "white snow's sleeve" are errors that are likely due to the apparent oddity of the name's construction, especially for a novice who only knows no to mean "of": the phrase in English in such a case, "sleeve of white snow," would seem much more plausible than a strange-sounding literal (for a non-specialist) "white snow of sleeve." The latter mistranslation (again, ignoring the other uses of no) would strike the novice as strange and therefore less likely, perhaps skewing into "(Sir) White Snow of Sleeve" knighthood territory. XD

So I would translate Sode no Shirayuki as "sleeved white snow" (perhaps it refers to the gentle, cloth-like billows of some snowfalls): it is the most grammatically correct. Adam Restling 13:34, January 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that. A lot of the zanpakuto names don't make literal sense, so I can understand people getting it wrong. Anyway, I've changed it to "Sleeved White Snow". -- Yyp  (Talk)  13:47, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

While I agree it makes more sense to an english speaker, we had this discussion re Kazeshini (of course, 'Wind Death') and while I was in favour of listing it in a english-friendly order, Tinni felt it should be translated literally, and not re-jig the order to suit a western reader, so I say 'White Snow of Sleeve' to maintain continuity. TomServo101 13:53, January 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think the two cases can be compared. We are talking about linguistics here. You do have to look at each individual case. In the case of Kazeshini, leaving the translation as "wind death" was being closer to the original Japanese then changing it to "Death wind" or "wind of death". In addition, the problem in the case of Kazeshini wasn't that the translation was inaccurate but that it didn't make sense in english. In this case, the translation is inaccurate. Tinni   (Talk)  13:58, January 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ur misinterpreting what Adam said. The Japanese word no is not just used as of. Its all explained above as to y Sleeved White Snow is the best and accurate translation. I also kno of the conversation on Shuheis page, but that was a different translation. Minato  (Talk)  14:00, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. It's part of the conundrum of ambiguity that occurs not only in Japanese but most languages. Some names, titles etc. retain usage of particles like no or adjectival endings, but many drop them, and the adjectival or other aspect of the word is only implied. This is the case with Shira- "white" in Shirayuki. This is an archaic/rarer variant of shiro- "white," but in actual conversation, "white" as an adjective would be shiroi, and so "white snow"  shiroi yuki. However, informally in compounds like names, the adjective ending -i can be dropped, and the intended adjectival meaning be implied. One could compare this to names like English Goodwin, where the fact that good is intended in an adjectival aspect, and not as a noun--e.g. something like a good (and) a man.

Since the intention, though, is not always clear--even from context--a more literal but still sensible translation is best. Whence I would approve of Kazeshini as "wind death" even though it might have been informally meant as "winds- (i.e. wind's) death," or "death of the wind" (note here that, as with Japanese, English constructions with of can be misleading, too: "death of the wind" can mean "an instance of the wind dying" or "an instance of death brought about by/borne on the wind"!). But Sode no Shirayuki as "sleeved white snow" seems to agree more (if not completely ) literally with the idioms of the Japanese whom, I daresay, might themselves double-take at an intended literal interpretation as "white snow of sleeve(s)"; at least it gives us a particle to work with! We do what we can in the translation game; the most sensible, faithful and elegant possible is what I would always recommend. If Kubo learns English enough to comment that I'm wrong, I'm all for at last attaining the correct form. Adam Restling 05:00, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

Ichimaru's Bankai
I haven't been able to find any raws for ch. 399 yet, but from Japanese spoilers I've seen, Ichimaru's Bankai seems to be Kamishini no Yari (神殺鎗（かみしにのやり）), which I think merely features the kun-readings of the characters of his Zanpakutou's usual name, Shinsou (神鎗) "spirit/kami spear" with the element 殺 "kill" interposed between them. The on (based on older Chinese pronunciation) reading of 神 "spirit, kami" is shin, and the kun (native Japanese pronunciation) reading is kami; for 鎗 "spear, lance," these are sou and yari respectively. It's odd that 殺 "kill" is read shini as though "death" (same as in  Shini gami); perhaps Kubo wanted to extra nuance again (the chapter is supposed to be titled "Deicide"). As is usual in the names, the genitive no, though spoken, is omitted from the written Kanji. Hopefully, these are all correct (again, no raws available me easily yet). Since you guys chose, at my suggestion, to translate Shinsou as "spirit spear/lance," I'd suggest its Bankai be translated similarly as "spirit-killing spear/lance"; however, because of the semantic broadening and blending of shin | kami I described in that earlier post, whether to follow the ch. title's apparent nod and revise both of these from "spirit" > "god" is up to your discretion. Adam Restling 09:32, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

"spear of god/kami-killing" (kanji), or "spear of god/kami's death" (furigana). Those two translations seem essentially synonymous. Perhaps the extra naunce would be that the name basically means "Spear of Deicide" in both possible senses of the latter word. MarqFJA 14:34, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

I was just meaning that "kami-death" (kamishini) would not implicitly refer to the death of a kami (this would be better expressed as kami no shi, though even that would be ambiguous, given the roles of genitive no), but rather referring to a "deific" order or magnitude of death, i.e. "death (so overwhelming as to seem it was wrought by) kami." But, like I said, the forms themselves are ambiguous, but, as you also reiterated, the title "Deicide" points toward the idea of the lance actually being strong enough it could (figuratively) slay kami itself--though, of course, the Shinigami themselves are not gods, despite how some may ascribe that meaning to their name. Adam Restling 10:04, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

To be fair, an accurate translation of 神 would be "supernatural force that corresponds to unknowable natural phenomenon (such as lightning)"; that would include both mortal "souls" (whether of dead or living people), "nature spirits" (e.g. fairies, elementals, nymphs), as well as bona fide "gods" and "demigods"; of course, Western translators are usually oblivious/ignorant of that one simple fact, despite annoyed Japanese linguists reiterating it over and over.

On the subject of raws: check MangaHelpers. MarqFJA 10:41, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah. I think I posted (might've been when asked to confirm the translation of Shinsou itself) about the applications of kami etc. and how simple "god" is a bit too narrow a translation at times. It is true, though, that the Japanese have been known to translate Western notions of "god, God" with kami, so translators should be forgiven some of these "trepasses," especially since this is the Japanese usage at times. But, in essence, it covers God, god, and the animistic elements you named--much like the Greek daimōn (before its debasing into forms like English demon), and Latin numen, genius--and even human spirits, as you said. I wrote a little bit more about it here, under the "Shinsou" part. Your post above touches on the origin of the Kanji/Hanzi 神 itself, which in oldest form combines the graphs "altar" and "lightning," (Henshall 1998) sic. "lightning of the altar" > "divine force from heaven" > "spiritual being." Interestingly, one of the words for "lightning" in Japanese, kaminari, is glossed as "call (nari) of kami"--lightning was thought to be the "voice of the heavenly," just as in many other world cultures. This also likely explains why the graph 申 itself is today used mostly for "report, speak (to a superior)" (if < "hearken as though to a kami").

The word that 神 writes, though--both in on and kun readings--is more mysterious. On reading shin was borrowed from probably one of the forms of Middle Chinese (ca. 600-1000 AD). The most ancient Chinese word is said to have been specifically "spirit" (the idea of a "god" was expressed most often by 帝, now mostly translated "emperor," prob. due to its usage by Qin Shihuangdi), and has been linked to Chepang glingh "a human spirit" (Schuessler 2007). The kun reading kami, though linked in the past to kami "upper (part)," has been shown unrelated to this latter, as they were spelled differently in Old Japanese. Links to the Ainu word kamuy "god, (esp. a bear) deity" are interesting, but remain elusive. However, the evolution from "human spirit" to "high spirit (of myriad types)" is no surprise, given the enduring strength of animism and ancestor-deification that abides in Asian cultures. If it were up to me, I'd probably leave kami itself untranslated, and give a richer exposition (like the above) in some kind of "Notes" area for guidance to its use. But when Aizen speaks of not even kami sitting in heaven and Kubo writes titles like "Deicide," it's hard to know whether the narrower interpretation "god" is more apt here after all--though these are highly suggestive. Adam Restling 09:48, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Espada Numbers
I was sure that Noveno/Octava..... were Espagnol numbers, and when I looked on some web-translator, it says the same thing...


 * Then it's a bad translator. The Spanish numbers are: cero, uno, dos, tres, cuatro, cinco, seis, siete, ocho, nueve, diez (0-10). I don't take Italian, but Octava, Noveno, etc. sound about right.LapisScarab 23:17, 3 November 2008 (UTC)LapisScarab

Yes, spanish number, sorry for bad saying, was talking about "1st", "9th"....(note: The translator is Wordreference), and when I try "8", it gives me "Ocho", but 8th give me Octovo/a, same for 9... Mili-Cien
 * Hmm, that might be right. We haven't learned much on "first", "second", "third", etc. I know that "first" in Spanish is "primero," but I don't really know 6th-9th. LapisScarab 03:38, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Until prove that is wrong, I remove this part from Trivia, just letting the "Dies" Mili-Cien


 * I checked, you were right. All the titles are Spanish for the ordinals of the Espada's ranks. Primero=1st, Segundo=2nd, Tercero=3rd, Cuarta=4th, Quinto=5th, Sexta=6th, Septima=7th, Octava=8th, Noveno=9th, Décimo=10th. I'll fix it up. LapisScarab 02:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Stark has claimed to be the Primera not Primero. It may just be a translation error, but all translations I've seen have Primera rather than Primero. Just thought to mention that :) Revan46 14:34, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

God all you people need to take a spanish class. the whole Primera/primero thing doesnt matter because they are all gramatically correct. the endiong simply tells if the noun is feminine/masculine. the ordianal number sytem works the same. 1-10 is a different word than 1st-10th. Diez= 10 decimo=10th


 * Its is just a translation error, And if the translations get mixed up, We could just simply tell what number they are by looking at the great big fecking tattoo and their bodies xD


 * To the ma that feels superiors than others, I'll just say that he needs to take gender lesson, stark introduced himself as Primera because sword(=espada) is a feminine word, and so, primero is wrong in this case, except if you consider that sword is a masculine word. Also about Yammy, you just said what we found out month ago.


 * Just for the record, I was only saying that Mili-Cien was right earlier and that the Espada titles were all Spanish, not Spanish and Italian. I wasn't saying what the titles were. Also, I put that well before Stark revealed his rank; Primera is correct. LapisScarab 05:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, this is absolutely out of the question, but I had to say it. It is so FUNNY to see how English speakers have trouble with the whole Arrancar thing because of the Spanish. I'm a native Spanish speaker, so I find it quite natural to know the meanings of the words and zanpakutohs, and the different endings for masculine and feminine words. But I've seen non-Spanish speakers struggling so badly with this kind of stuff. I'm sorry, it just makes me laugh a lot. But about the italian, I remember that Yylfordte introduced themselves in a more... italian-like way. Or at least that's what I remember... he said "Quindecimo" or something like that? Because the Spanish would be "Decimoquinto". But I don't remember which episode it was Lia Schiffer 02:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You could help explain it instead of laughing at them.--Licourtrix 05:26, September 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, for people who don't understand why it is "Primera" "Segunda" even for the male ones (you'd think it would be primero, segundo"), it's because the adjective is referring to the noun Espada, which is feminine. So..it's gramatically correct. It would be incorrect to call Stark "el primero espada" or barragan "segundo espada". The End 01:41, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yet, Ulquiorra introduced himself as Cuatro Espada (literally "Four Sword") rather than Cuarta. And I think Nnoitra introduced himself as Quinto instead of Quinta, but I'm not sure about that one. Lia Schiffer 07:24, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed, Nnoitra is the Quinto Espada. Both him and Aaroneiro take the masculine forms - Quinto/Noveno - while the rest take the feminine with suffix "a". - HuecoMuffin 13:40, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Am I correct in assuming it's that Arrancar's choice in whether to use the masculine or feminine form for their rank? I sort of help introduce people to Bleach locally so it'd help if i can explain this if someone asks.

espadas
the male member of the espada should call themselves in rank in the masculine form while the female members should refer to their rank in the feminine

example


 * Tercera
 * sexto
 * cuarto

ulquiorra is one of the few that say it correctly,{{Unsigned|Shiny-gami|21:16, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

All of the Espada refereed to themselves in the feminine term. Exceptions are:Ulquiorra, Aaroniero. Still, I don't see Y people keep bringing this up. It is so insignificant. User:Lia Schiffer speaks spanish and she said it was hilarious that people here keep bringing this up like it reall matters. I am marking this Discussion closed as it doesn't matter. We have them listed as they introduced themselves and it stays that way, PERIOD. Minato (Talk)  21:28, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

i didn't ask to change as i know that the this wikia uses the from spoken by the espada i was just saying that it should be noted in the article if it's not noted yet. as i did a small redundant trivia merge explaining thatShiny-gami 21:55, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

The spanish skills of the Espada or Kubo for that matter are borderline junk trivia. Tinni 22:04, December 16, 2009 (UTC)