Forum:Official Vizard Discussions

Here, you can hold general discussions about the Vizard. Please do not make new topics about them, as they will simply be deleted and merged with the appropriate forums. Twocents 23:50, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Existing Topics
All of these topics are open and available for discussion. Twocents 23:50, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Why is there a three-minute limit on the masks?
That discussion got a little long, but can be continued here if anyone would like to. Twocents 23:50, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Shikai
Lisa and Hiyori released their shikai. Any thoughts or opinons on what they can/might do? Orochidayu 17:34, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I don't have any opinions on that specifically, but they seem to be mostly for offensive use, if their release commands are any indicator.

And maybe it's just me, but does anyone else find it odd that, with the exception of Kensei, all of all of the revealed Vizards' Shikai are oversized/overextended? It's a little... boring. Twocents 17:43, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Well, I didn't really notice at first, but let's review:


 * Ichigo: a large black & white cleaver
 * Love: an enormous club
 * Rose: a extended whip with thorns
 * Lisa: an oversized spear
 * Hiyori: a cleaver with saw-blades
 * Kensei: a.....small pocket knife?

Yep! All the Vizard who have shown their shikai, except Kensei, have large versions of actual weapons. But we'll have to wait to see if Shinji, Mashiro, and Hachi follow the same pattern. I ''Really wanted to see Kyoraku's Bankai, though! ._. Orochidayu 18:22, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

By all means, that pictures the Vizards pretty well, I mean grotesque and raw appearances and powers. Except, I, myself, don't like the shape of Ichigo's looks more like a huge kitchen knife [] than a sword.Baronofash 23:45, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Ha ha, I noticed that too. Ichigo's shikai doesn't seem to do much, except for his Getsuga Tenshou. I think Tite Kubo may have had a writers block for the vizards' shikais and things, because of deadlines. I hope he'll come up with something good for them later though. KnowledgeandImagination 00:03, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Hiyori's shikai looks more like an larger version of a sword-breaker, a Medieval European weapon that served as a counter to a sword, basically it was used to catch a sword in the notches then break the blade or disarm the wielder. Kensei's shikai may be a reflection of his military style dress and personality so a combat knife would seem appropriate for him.Spacedone 08:50, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Guess now we know. No need to go all out designing something for a character that you're finished with (Inoue not withstanding). For the record, I thought it suited her, and not everyone has to have fancy abilities. The basic ones just make the rest seem all that much better. --Yyp 22:53, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

I actually liked Rose's zanpakuto a lot. It looks like it has some interesting abilities and I can't wait to see more of it. But Kyoraku wins hands down for the most imaginative zanpakuto out there. I also really want to see Kensei fight but I fear we'll be cheated out of it. I hope not but there is only so much Kubo can show in 19 pages. Tinni 08:06, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I really like Lisa now that we've seen her Shikai. She's very knight like. Actually, I like her mask the best. Nick4444 18:29, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

Preferred Mode of Combat
I don't know how others feel but I would like to see a stop to people adding trivia that is essentially fan speculation as the preferred mode of combat for vizards, especially Kensei. Clearly Kensei is one of those lucky shinigami whose zanpakuto is perfect for the style of combat he prefers i.e. hand-to-hand. Which is probably why he releases it so much. It doesn't mean anything beyond that. Also I would like to see proof regards how the other vizards prefer their hollow skills over their shinigami ones. In fact, what the hell are "hollow skills" anyway? Last I looked the only purely hollow combat skill the vizards have access to is cero. Generally their masks just augment their existing powers. So far Shinji used cero once, Hiyori used cero twice and Mashiro used cero once. Everybody else seems to put on the mask to make their four shinigami powers (Kidō, Hakuda, Hohō and Zanjutsu) stronger. Case in point, Mashiro clearly prefer hand-to-hand combat over swordsmanship, so she wears her mask to pummel her opponent because it makes her generally stronger then what she would be. We don't know what her zanpakuto's power is, it might be something that isn't adaptable to hand-to-hand combat and which is why she doesn't use it. She wouldn't be the first shinigami to have a complex about her zanpakuto's ability. So please, enough with the "Kensei prefers his shinigami powers over his hollow powers" and all trivia along that same vain. It's just speculation and should be confined to fanfictions and forums. Tinni 12:25, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

Hear hear. Preferred mode of combat is hardly worthy of a trivia mention. Thankyou for pointing out how ridiculous it is. BollyW 13:13, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

Vizard's Eyes
Ive noticed in recent chapters that some of the vizards eyes are not black but white still i was wondering if you guys and or girls think that means anythingKensei24 21:38, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

i don't know, at first i thought it had some thing to do with there glasses acting like a filter. but now ichigo is doing it.Soul reaper magnum 06:56, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I just watched Ep 121 & 122 again & Hiyori forms her mask & her eyes stay whit, but then turn black. Later she takes her mask off, but they stay black. Also, when Shinji first uses his mask as a demonstration to Ichigo his eyes stay white, but when he uses it against Grimmjow they turn black. I just have no idea whats going on anymore with the Vizards. Minato88 07:13, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Before the fake karakura town arc, hiyori and shinji's eye color with their mask on was black. Interestingly, since the vizard came to karakura town, the color of their eyes with their masks worn was white. Ichigo's color became white too when he had his new mask. I don't know if this is just an error but I think there is some deeper explanation to it. --Agate genbu 04:36, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Masks and Shikais
The conversation got a little long there, but if anyone would like to continue it here, they may do so. Twocents 23:50, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Something has puzzled me ever since i saw ichigo in his new hollow form, will he get the extra two lines in the middle and the horns? Will it be like the last mask where it changes over time? And his new hollow form seemed more human than animalistic, is he in a sense immitating the more powerful hollows with the humanoid hollow transformation? Is he evolving? And does that explain why his mask changed? why he was stronger? What makes ichigo so different from the other vizards? (i really hope he doesn't get kill/defeat aizen even though its looking that way)Kissmybankai 15:57, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

i just thought of this while reading this thread... a vastro lorde is the most evolved (if not perfect) arrancar, right? (correct me if i'm wrong.) what do you call a fully hollowfied (or a perfectly hollowfied/evolved) shinigami? it might be something equal to a vasto lorde. maybe ichigo will be something like this... just a thought.--WinterFox 03:30, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Well, to answer that one should look into the circumstances of both Ichigo's/Other Vaizards Hollows being born. Before that, we must look at a few other basic questions such as: Do Hollows often retain their reasoning? No most of them don't-- which is why the int. ones are considered so dangerous. Next, What was the Hyougyoku originally created to do? Strengthen the soul of the one it's being used on. What does a Shinigamis pwr do? Purify souls and send them to Soul Society/give them to Hell

Ichigo's circumstances: 1) He didn't have any Shinigami pwrs 2)He used his Shinigami pwrs to stop his Hollow from taking over.

Vaizards circumstances: 1) They had Shinigami pwrs 2) They had the Hyougyoku used on them to stop their Hollows from taking over.

What is the difference? 1) One used Shinigami powers the other used the Hyougyoku.2)One had power, the other didn't, and 3) One stopped it internally, the other stopped it externally.

On 1) Shinigami powers purify Hollows-- if it didn't purify them completely then it would at least weaken them greatly(and perhaps make them part way to a plus--never fully though)--This means Ichigo's Hollow would have been driven back by a power that weakened it(and potentially made him at least slightly closer to a plus (like Black--->dark dark dark grey))

The Hyougyoku makes Souls(anyone in this case) stronger The amt of pwr in the anime is 'incalcuable' and even the manga implies it is no small amt (in the conversations on Grand Fisher, Yami's skin, Toushiros disbelief a Gillian(O_o.. guess he was wrong) making a captain have to release his limiter, etc..) And guess who was trying to take over at the time when the Hyougyoku was used on them-- and thus probably got the greater amt of that +power? The Hollow. Notice what happens when even upper class normal Hollows (Grand Fisher) get this used on them. They get unstable power that doesn't mix properly. Now think on the souls that just plain exploded, and picture the Vaizards Hollow's as being the place in between those 2. Now what other type of Hollow comes into sudden possession of power which is too much for them to control? Gillians. And what else does it do to them when they get this power? They got back to an animal like intellect.

On the no Shini. vs had Shini., I would say this. Which one is more likely to have a stronger (purification) effect: Water turned onto a stain(Ichigo), or placing a stain into a tub of water(other Vaizards)? Basically I feel that suddenly blasting water at his Hollow would further enchance the amt. of weakening that the Hollow suffered.

Next off, if the Hyougyoku pulls out more potential(at least thats how I see it), then it must be getting it from somewhere-- i.e. It would be more stressful to pull all power that you can't get to otherwise, than just pulling out a dormant power of Shinigami-- which souls normally can get access to at some point(I have the thought that the body prevents the power from manifesting-- as it's made of Kishi which apparentely isn't friends with Reishi). So another point for 'which causes more stress on both my body and my Hollow'.

On the internal vs external thing, generally your body does know itself better(a.k.a. your souls pwr will know your soul better) than an other pwr (the Hyougyoku-- which isn't even Reiatsu in the first place-- so it may not even be very similar at all)-- or hello stress.

So in other words, on one side you have Ichigo's holow who was weakened(and in a way that potentially could make it more like a plus-- which is what Shinigamis seem to change their pwr from) and almost given no time before that weakening vs The other Vaizards, who were strengthened, given more time to try to take over(which would make stress), as well as a few other ways of being stressed. Or to put it another way, if the chance of retaining ones reasoning is 5% then Ichigo's Hollow either a) suffered stress due to being beaten back(lower to 4%) b)got partially purified as well as weakened(which means less power to kick you back to animal intellect) (6%) vs other Vaizards going and 1) Getting stronger(more power to overwhelm you)(4%) in a way that causes stress(Aizen's method was probably more straining than Urahara's nice long 72hr thing) (3%) given time to cause more stress to itself fighting with the person in charge (2%) and then exposed to a power that causes even more stress to it (1%).  Or basically they end up at way less of a chance of having any reasoning left.

From the assumed base of them not being able to reason vs Ichigo's being able to reason-- which do you think is more likely to be able to come up with ways to get stronger? The one that rages randomly like a hollow or the one who comes up with new fighting styles(bandaid throw weee), learns Bankai, and beats the one that 'should' be more able to use it at learning how to use a move(Bankai Getsuga Tenshou). Or basically what i'm saying happened (if this base is true) was that Ichigo's Hollow may have (after getting bashed back) started off weaker than the other (strengthened) Hollows but, he retained something far more valuable, his reasoning. This allowed him to slowly grow in power, then made him smart enough to protect his King(No mask protection= dead Ichigo vs Mask actually making it more likely they would be killed in the other case-- though we didn't see enough on Ichigo's first scene to conclude anything-- wish that the Hollow had had the opportunity to fight-- then I could add that in one way or another), and then made him smart enough to take away the source of his kings power.--- Hiyori seemed to think he wasn't using Bankai due to her being strong= dangerous-- while to me it seemed more the thing his Hollow mentioned to him--- that when ever he tries to use Zangetsu (which Bankai requires doing) it makes his Hollow stronger. From this the thing with the masks seems to be like evolution

The first mask was weak Hollow--->Strong Gillin (who through having strong Shinigami pwrs/taking control of Ichigo's Shini.pwrs temp. was able to fight against Byak.)  the 2nd mask correlates to his Hollow first getting stronger and it even had the form of approx. the same size as an Adjun. weak---> Strong Adjun. (since a Vasto Lord is stronger than an avg. captain= very strong Adjun. would be high vice/low captain lvl--a.k.a. enough to be enough to either require the other Vaizards to Hollowlify(or whatever it's called..) or at least take him very seriously. This particular instance would have very little access to any of Ichigo's or Hollows Shinigami powers thought--- this time both of them were using most of it fighting each other.-- which also explains why the first time was mostly Shini(since both the str. of the Hollow was less and the amt of Shini. pwr available was more) and the second time was mostly Hollow. The last time we saw his Hollow, it was suddenly human sized and (like the Illustration) had 2 horns.  It used Sonido rather than Shunpo as well as having a super powerful cero that was stronger than Ichigos (at least over avg. captain lvl) Getsuga Tenshou. In other words that particular appearance appeared to have both a Vasto Lord's lvl of str., skill set, and appearance.-- And at least most of it was the Hollow-- since if most of it was Shini. pwr then it would have been Get./Shunpo being used rather than Cero/Sonido being used-- it would have been like his first fight against Renji/Gillian-- using a sword, not using hands to block big powerful atks (Gillians cero, Renjis sword(all is relative--It probably was strong comp. to a swd that got chopped into pieces by a sealed swd (Byak.) and a Shikai(Urahara)-- while in this case he caught Ulq. destroys 1/2 the dome spear of pain with his hands.), doesn't exactly scream (Ichigo's) normal Shinigami way of fighting.-- Of course, as i've noted, at best I can say it increases probability of X happening so Y has a larger chance so Z has a larger chance--- in other words, if I'm wrong at one point everything gets destroyed.

Also to WinterFox--- Arrancars may not even have evolution. Since all we have confirmed is that being a higher lvl Hollow increases ones chances of ending up Humanlike. It doesn't say anything about Arrancar being able to evolve anymore or not. It would be a big shock to someone like Grimmy I bet if he found out (after getting as much Shini. power as he can from this) that it also took that power away from his potential to ever become a Vasto Lord(since I'm a firm believer that this str. is coming from somewhere). Aizen seems all about replacing his current Espada with new ones afterall, so he wouldn't give a sheep if the Hyou. also made one lose potential in other things. Also that he knew that Vasto Lords= always human(I forget who said this though..) means that at least 2 of the Arrancar are Vasto Lords (since if you only used it once on one, you wouldn't say guarenteed/always)-- which(unrelated topic) implies that at least the top 2 were Vasto Lords or that he has Vasto Lords hidden somewhere (I'm thinking the first just because Bar. was king= Why would anyone listen to you as a god if you were only the strongest among the same class:\?)

A fully Hollowfied ShinigamiO_o? Seeing that Arrancar is a Hollow who acquires(mixes in) Shini. and a Vaizard is a Shini. who acquires (mixes in) Hollow pwr both ways are just mixes of the 2 powers. Fully Hollowfied would just be a Hollow-- It's like saying Black(Shini) White(Hollow) with Arrancarar being(light grey-- since they seal most of their Hollow pwr in their weapons)  and Vaizard being (dark grey-- since they don't have such large differences normally that other people actually noticed what was happening to Ichigo)  making it to pure White is equiv. to making the person into a Hollow. And on the evolved thing, don't Shinigami pwrs already 'evolve' From sealed--->Shikai(which can get you to captain lvl if your lucky)--->Bankai(which can get you who knows how high)---  Well basically I don't see why your asking about Hollow evolution when talking about Shinigami. Bleh 3rd time writing this out(I got logged out:\) so if i missed anything (my first time was actually the longest) then yeah...Worldninja 04:50, November 20, 2009 (UTC)