Talk:Lilynette Gingerbuck

It's Midna
She looks like Midna of Twilight princess fame


 * I don't know who left that^ message, but they're right. Midna even has markings on her body that resemble Lilinette's vest. Since the trivia section already says that she resembles Lord Ranewater, should we include this, too?

Why not, I can go ahead and do that--Vampier Master 21:05, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

No, references should not be made to things that are not from this Manga/Anime. This is a Wikia about Bleach, It should not incluce other things. Acacia Akiyama 21:04, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Appearance info
Would it not be a good idea to mention her arm-warmer like gloves and boots in this section? Acacia Akiyama 22:44, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Go for it. I think detail is a good thing. LapisScarab 03:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Would someone mind helping me on how to describe her arm-warmer things? i don't think arm warmer things is quiet a good way to put it ^^'Acacia Akiyama 23:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Taken care of. LapisScarab 01:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)


 * THX Acacia Akiyama 17:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Chapter 360
Anyone seen the... y'know, or are we jsut not allowed to mess with it yet. It refers to LilInette, of course. MementoMoriBlack 13:09, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Don't ya mean Lilynette or somethin'? I saw a Y there Kaihedgie 13:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

It definitely is a 'y' and I'm going to change everything. It's like the issue with Harribel. In fact Lilynette's name was the title page so it's definitely canon.--Agate genbu 14:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

only fraccion to assist an espada?
Under trivia it says that she is the only fraccion to assist an espada in battle. Didnt Tesla help out Nnoitra?


 * Kind of, but it wasn't exactly in the midst of battle. Could be a good point. Im not sure if we should include Tessy. Acacia Akiyama 19:27, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You know technically Szayel's fraccion helped him out...by being eaten and healing him, yes but that would help turn the tide of battle...--Licourtrix 03:06, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Numeros?
Is she really still considered a numeros? Since she is apparently a part of stark (or something similar) is she actually considered a numeros? (Sorry if I misspelled that XD)Acacia Akiyama 19:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * By definition yes. She is Starrk's Fraccion mostly because they are one but she still serves under him. All Fraccion are numeros, and even if she is part of Starrk she is still an Arrancar. WhiteStrike 19:35, 2 August 2009 (UTC)


 * In the recent chapter (373) on page 17, Starrk called both himself and her, the Primera Espada. Shouldn't that be in the page? Also that would debunk the claim that she is a Numerous. The quote I believe was, "We are the Primera Espada, Coyote Starrk and Lilynette Gingerback, and this is our power." I believe this means literally that. They are both the First Espada and that should be put in the article as well as it be listed in her occupation. Something like: Primera Espada (along with Starrk, her other half). Just my opinion though it is backed by facts. Thanks for listening and here is a link for those wanting proof of what I claim: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/373/17/

Ten Tailed Fox 13:12, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Fan-translations are not reliable sources.--Licourtrix 01:34, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a scanlation, then, that says something different? Otherwise, I see no reason to completely dismiss it, especially since if Sleepy Fans' scanlations were wildly inaccurate on a regular basis, people wouldn't read them. Twocents 03:02, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Either way, Lilynette is still named as a Numeros. She doesn't have an Espada tattoo, nor is she referred to as an Espada by others. Additionally, on her own, her strength level doesn't even come close to matching an Espada's, given how easily Ukitake kept the fight in his favor. Finally, even though Lilynette is merged with Starrk in his released form, it's still pretty clear that Starrk himself is the dominating mind. It's for these reasons that I think Lilynette should'nt be categorized as an Espada. That, and her consciousness is in one of Starrk's guns. Arrancar109 03:13, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

See, those I will accept as viable reasons for keeping her status listed as a Numeros. Thanks for not being dismissive, Arrancar109! Twocents 03:23, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Haha so what if she doesn't have an Espada tattoo or isn't as strong as the other Espada. She was just confirmed as the Primera along with Starrk. She was never confirmed as a numeros. While you do have good points Arrancar109. Shes still an Espada whether you like it or not. And I don't think you should keep her as a numeros just because putting her as an espada doesn't fit your tasteThunderwitch 09:47, September 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * I've checked three different scans besides Sleepyfan, which read as following:

"We are the Primera Espada Coyote Stark and Lillinette Gingerback and this is our power" - HuecoMundo Scans

"The title of Primera Espada belongs to us...Coyote Starrk and Lilynette Gingerback for this very reason" - Binktopia

"That is the power that we, the Primera Espada...Coyote Starrk...and Lilynette Gingerback...posses." -Franky House

And the Japanese for the sentence is "Sore-wa ore-tachi purimera esupada..." "Ore-tachi" means "we" without any doubt.

I don't think there's any way Lilynette can be considered Starrk's fraccion, when we plainly says here that they are the Primera Espada. Since the Espada are ranked in terms of overall power, not just power prior to release, and since Starrk and Lilynette require each other to release, Lilynette can also be considered an Esapda. And furthermore, I don't think her apparent lack of a tattoo has anything to do with it. We never saw Szayel's or Zommari's tattoos, did we?

Daisekihan 20:31, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

I never said anything about translation issues, but I still think there's reason to doubt her as an Espada, as she become a part of Starrk after he releases, but she still retains sentience... just in a gun, not the main body. Also, in addition to my previously stated reasons, she's not present in any of the Espada meetings either. Arrancar109 20:43, September 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, maybe she's not an Esapda...but at the very least, I don't think she can be considered Starrk's fraccion. Daisekihan 20:50, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying Fan-translations are inaccurate, just not always reliable. The whole debate shouldn't be centered around it, most fan-translators have an incomplete education in Japanese that may allow subtle ways the words are written to get by them. I agree however that the arguement goes more towards Lilynette not being an espada. She simply isn't strong enough on her own to warrant being called one of the deadliest fighters among the hollows and without stark to merge with (wonder how that works anyway? if they were twins I could see it but...)she wouldn't be associated with the espada. If anything this might mean merging her article with Stark's.--Licourtrix 02:14, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

She and Starrk are the same PERSON! That alone means that she isn't a numerous or a faccione like other numerous or faccione. Let's not confuse the fact and as has been noted, ALL the translators say that Starrk said "we are the prima" espada. I say that we change the article to reflect her special status. Saying just what we do know, "Lilynette is not like other numerous or faccione as she is part of Starrk, making her exact classification somewhat ambiguous. Indeed, Starrk states that the prima espada titles belongs to them jointly." This does not declare her to be an espada, but it captures exactly what has been revealed. That's what I think. Tinni 02:25, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Inaccurate is a synonym for unreliable. And when all the scanlations say essentially the same thing (thanks for getting those, Daisekihan!), it's hard to say that we can't use the scanlations as a foundation for making a decision about this. Especially since if it wasn't for that statement in the scanlation, there'd be nothing to center the discussion around anyway.

That being said, I don't think their articles should be merged, or that they should be considered the exact same individual. This is for a couple reasons:
 * 1) Starrk's article would be horrendous to read if we added on the entire length of Lilynette's (which sounds silly, but what's the point to an article if it's so lengthy that no one wants to read it?)
 * 2) They each have unique names - not even the same first or last name - and Starrk uses the pronoun "we" not "I" when referring to them, demonstrating that he doesn't consider them to be the same individual. If he did, there'd be no reason to use a plural word to refer to himself, a singular entity. Unless, I suppose, you want to argue that he uses the Royal we. Twocents 02:38, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

I've always been told fan-translations are a non-canon source until something by the publisher is produced that says the same thing. Inaccurate and unreliable are non synonyms, their meanings are entirely different. By saying inaccurate I'd being saying they're almost always wrong. This isn't the case, or why in some circles fan-translations are conisdered inferior. I say unreliable because they're often hastily compiled and sometimes contain errors or words that the translator didn't want to translate and just left the way it was, or missed a suffix that would change how the sentence reads in english. I'm not saying, and never will say they're consistently wrong, but that to anyone compiling something encyclopedic, they shouldn't be considered the end all of a discussion. I didn't suggest merging as an entirely serious idea, as I see that rarely happens here. So far I'm agreeing with Tinni, "combined with stark lilynette is the primera espada" sounds rather nice compared to saying she is or isn't an espada, numeros or just a fraccion. I wouldn't think Stark the type to use the Royal we, Barragan certainly, but not stark ^_^--Licourtrix 04:59, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Looks fair. Well, I'll check with Salubri on this, just to be sure. Arrancar109 05:03, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Ok well i'll be honest I really don't care to much either way, but if i have to take a side on this. Ill say this much It's never stated whether Lillynette is either a numeros or faccion. It seems that Starrk and her are one of the same being, in this the circumstances are complex. He specifically says "the two of us are one. when other hollows evolved to arrancars, they split their powers between their bodies and their swords. But we split into two bodies. when we become one again, our full power is released". Chapter 361, page 14-15. In the he most recent chapter he states we more then once, when talking about the wolves and then he says they are the primera espada and this is their power. The most logical conclusion is that she is apart of him. She is neither espada, numerous or faccion (least we forget that these are all just organizational titles and ranks). She is a arrancar an while starrk is the an espada and the primera she is apart of him making them one in the same when they release. If anything changes it should be reflected as such in that she is only considered a espada by starrk as she is apart of him, she neither has that title, power or official capacity on her own. Hopefully that helps.Salubri 05:40, September 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think this would be an acceptable compromise. Daisekihan 07:40, September 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed.--Licourtrix 00:45, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Don't really want add fuel to a fire but I do not see why she cannot be called his fraccione, When merged she becomes LaPrimera along with him but as a single entity which she is cause her persona is totally different from that of of Starrk and also her views. She fought Ukitake by herself, Stark fought Shunshui two separate individuals, then they combined to form LaPrimera. In the anime when Souske introduced his Top 3 Espada each had their fraccione next to them, agreed she is from Starrk but when separated she serves the duties of a fraccione and should be listed as one when she is not combined with Starrk.Shinji hirako 04:53, September 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * Fought is too strong a word for what she was doing with Ukitake. :) Tinni 11:19, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

A fraccion has no real tie to the espada's power however...she does. Her personality doesn't merge with his in his ressurccion form either she simply adds power by becoming the guns he uses to fire ceros. She shows that she still keeps her views too, encouraging stark to fight when he feels like giving up and exclaiming that she can feel pain when he smacks his guns. In essence she is a part of Starks power, split off, If the two masks in a tube that made Aaroniero are considered the 9th espada I think Stark and Lilynette should both be considered the Primera.--Licourtrix 05:10, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

Im not trying to be a bitch, but why is Lilynette still listed as a fraccion when she was just confirmed as the Primera Espada along with Coyote? It really shouldn't matter whether we agree with it or not, but she is. And she should be listed as such.Thunderwitch 04:01, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Well, I'm not entirely sure about the Fraccion thing, so I did nothing on it. However, I did change Lilynette's occupation slightly by stating that she's the 1st Espada AFTER releasing. Arrancar109 06:00, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Almost there. But you need to completely remove fraccion from her occupation, and the word from her page entirely. She should be also listed has the primera espada next to Starrk on the "List of Arrancar". Its not that hard. I don't see how you can call her a fraccion when she was never introduced or confirmed being a fraccion. Yet, when she's confirmed being the Primera along with Starrk. We seem to ignore that and keep her as a fraccion when in fact shes the Primera Espada. It really irks me. There shouldn't be any excuses as to why she shouldn't be an espada when the manga specifically states it.Thunderwitch 08:30, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

I think most people identify Fraccion as direct subordinates of the Espada. Either way though, in some cases, I did have to change "Fraccion" to "subordinate", but otherwise, I was able to remove the aspects of calling Lilynette a "Fraccion". Arrancar109 14:41, September 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * What I don't get is why we haven't changed it yet. I attempted to but the edit was reverted. The fact is that Lilynette was never confirmed as a Numerous, she never had a Numerous number. Most of the other prominent Numerous have provided their number during a fight, she has not. She HAS been confirmed to be the First Espada along with Starrk. So I am going to say this plainly and please do not take this as me being frustrated cuz Im not, I just want you to know: It has been confirmed in the manga that Lilynette is the Primera alongside Starrk. Therefore it simply does not matter what most other Arrancar are or have been, our opinion as fans also does not matter. The fact is that it has been confirmed. Most of us here agree that she isnt a Numerous or a Fraccion so please change it to say that she is the Primera along with Starrk. Ten Tailed Fox 18:08, September 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * If your argument is that she's not considered a Numeros because she never provided a number, that's quite faulty. Only seven of the named Numeros have provided a number, while there have been 28 Numeros named in total. It's not uncommon for them to not provide their numbers, especially when easily the most prominent Numeros, Pesche and Dondochakka, have failed to do so. While she is listed in the manga as an Espada post-release, she is not listed as being an Espada prior to Starrk's release. For all we know, when she's not merged with Starrk, she is considered just a Numeros, especially since it's implied that Starrk and her split before joining Aizen. With the way it is worded now, it airs more on the side of caution, rather than making a bunch of assumptions, and I see no issues with it. Twocents 18:48, September 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * No my argument is that all of the Numerous do date have been proven to be numerous at some point. Neither in Starrk's flashback or anywhere in the manga is any proof that she is one, however there is a flat out statement that she is an Espada. Post release or not, that makes her an Espada. You don't become an Espada by releasing. She is the same being as Starrk. She and him are the same, if she is the same person as him then they can't hold separate ranks. Aside from that, my argument is not based on speculation at all, Starrk clearly states "WE are the Primera Espada, Coyote Starrk and Lilynette Gingerback, and this is our power." He didn't say "I" or "She is after fusing with me.", he said "we". So it is speculation that she is a Numerous, but it is a fact that she is an Espada. This wiki is founded for facts on Bleach and until Starrk or Lilynette comes right out and says she is or was a Numerous to confirm it, that is just speculation to assume she was a Numerous. Ten Tailed Fox 23:24, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

Come on, it clearly states under her rank or whatever that she is the primera espada post release. That's all we know! Certainly she's the same person as Starrk when unreleased but she's a different entity with her own personality traits. I think the current page is the most accurate considering what we do know. BollyW 03:08, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Alright, look. First off, you must all be idiots (save for Ten Tails). It CLEARLY says that "We are the Primera Espada, Coyote Starrk and Lilynette Gingerback, and this is our power". Thats It. Weither we like it or not, unless Tite confirms that Lilynette is a Fraccion, then she is an Espada. She may be seperated from Starrk, but she and him share the same reiatsu. Are we all forgeting that even if she is only considered Primera Espada by release, then by that logic, Yammy is still only Decima, not Cero Espada. From the time Starrk said it, and used Lilynette's full name when he introduced his rank, that confirms it. Unless Tite says else, she is a Espada, Primera. That is it. If you all don't agree, then you all need to take another gander at the Manga. Now then, you all have two choices. Either, admit your wrong and change it, or try to make a meaningly and futile comeback. Either way, good luck. Seireitou-hanshi (瀞霊冬川平) 05:16, September 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * He has a point there guys. By the same logic, if Lilynette is only an Espada after release then Yami isnt an Espada until after release either. Yammy says that the numbers of the Espada go from 0-9, so Decima means he is a numeros post-release. That is a confimation. Lilynette is an Espada, pre and post release, period, its what the manga states. Ten Tailed Fox 05:22, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, Yammi is an espada pre and post release as is Lilynette. However she isn't the Primera espada pre-release for the same reason that Yammi isn't the Cero Espada pre-release. And they don't share the same reaitsu, even though they are the same being, they are completely seperate pre-release. So pre-release she is an entirely different Espada, with no rank. As a matter of fact, although technically this is true, she isn't officially ranked as such because if she was, she'd get a seat at the conference table and get all the rights that the espada get. So from Aizen's point of view, from the other Espada's point of view, from the Shinigami's point of view, Lilynette is not an espada except by sheer techincality. Now it's fine to go into this in a bit of depth in the article itself to clear it up but for the side text box summary, it is most succint and accurate to say that she is the primera espada post-release. And let's keep this conversation civil, we're all here to improve the wiki so there's no need to be so aggressive and insulting. BollyW 07:27, September 22, 2009 (UTC)