Forum:Koga Kuchiki

I was just wondering guys/gals do you you really think Kouga was at fault for his actions??? Because to me, it seemed like he was framed and nobody even seemed to care...anybody???

I agree, it seems to me that even though the soul society is big on justice, they don't really do much investigating. They just listened to the guy that claimed to be a victim and passed koga's innocence of, not really hearing his side of the story.Lazychubb 05:37, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

Soul Society seems more focused on the nipping the bud more than trying to be fair about their actions, which to me seems like SS is more of a corrupt society than what it claims to be. Like in all Manga, SS made it's own enemies and then tries to justify their actions by deeming any rebel a villain. Look at Tosen. He was a good man, but the actions, or no actions, taken by the SS made him hate the group that excused the unjust murder of a woman whom he deeply respected. I really don't have any remorse or respect for SS, because the idea of shoot first talk second for a government or military is pitiful. Plus they remind me too much of Danzo from NARUTO, and for those who know who he is, hopefull you'll see my point.--Moe1216 14:11, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Kouga was framed, but that was done to make him realize who he is: just another shinigami. He was getting full of himself, and needed a little reality check. If he would have obeyed Ginrei, I think he would have gotten out of it, if not for any other reason, then because he was member of Kuchiki and they could have done something for him. He himself rebelled and didn't have patience that a noble needs to have. It was just a test for him, I'm quite sure. --Akeki 19:02, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

I have another random question about Koga. His powers are AWESOME against shinigami, there is no doubting that, however, would he be effective against a hollow? Would he be truly effective against an Arrancar like the Espada? My assumption is that his fighting skill and level of reiatsu is high enough that he would/could find a way to win, but his powers are almost entirely guided toward fighting a shinigami civil war (Good thing during his day there was a rebellion huh?). Again, just a question I thought I'd throw out there. Orionradar 21:59, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not too big on SS, they make too much enemies for themselves. Case and point, Sojuro Kusaka, Kaname Tosen, The Dark Ones, (argueably) Shusuke Amagai etc. Even in The DiamondDust Rebellion they turned on Hitsuguya without even a proper investigation. I think the major currupt part of SS are dead though, the Central 46. Now Kouga wasn't responsible for what happened to him. It doesn't matter if he was confident, all he was trying to do was get Ginrei's approval, and he thought the best way to do it would be to get strong, and he did become powerful, but still wasn't acknowledge by Ginrei. Then when everyone turned on him and Ginrei still had that cold demeanor when speaking to him in jail he followed what Muramasa told him. Then after realizing what he had done, he had a mental breakdown and essential became an insane person. Put yourselves in his position, at one point your on top of the world, then its all suddenly STOLEN from you and instead of glory, you're given disgrace. He isnt responsible for his actions, the elites that framed him are.

In a fight against Hollows, Koga would have no trouble. Muramasa's first ability can still work, and Kouga is clearly a Kido Master, plus he has his normal swordsmanship to rely on AND his immense reiatsu. Its like asking if a Captain can kill a Hollow without Bankai or Shikai.Grimmjow2 23:04, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

Grimmjow, What do you mean Muramasa's first ability? He also rejected the necessity of keeping Muramasa, so he wouldnt be able to rely on him in battle (as we saw against Byakuya). Also, that's exactly what I'm saying about without bankai and shikai. We saw every captain and vizard release at least one of the two (typically fighting with other captains/vizard to take on individual espada). At that point, Koga prefers to work alone, and is so confident that he could do it alone. I still think he'd have trouble. Orionradar 00:16, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Ef, Quite a bit of work to ask one question. Anyway I'm not going to waste time explaining that Kouga was responsible for his actions, and simply say that he has to be. If you really want to get into the details, you're just delving into determinism (and all it's varieties) v. indeterminism (think free will). Kouga isn't the first character to present this issue, in Bleach or any story, nor will he be the last. Much more interesting to me is whether or not Kouga has any biological relation to Byakuya, particularly fatherhood. I was sure something would be mentioned about this online so I went looking to see what others thought and came across this wiki. The episode I saw made no mention of a father son relationship between Kouga and Byakuya, but it seems so obvious. One of the first things we see Kouga say to Ginrei makes the son-in-law connection.

Moving forward from there, we know Ginrei is grandfather (and we assume biologically) to Byakuya. Though I know of no mention of Byakuya's mother I'm willing to trust that the woman glimpsed in episode 254 is her. And we are given the notion that this woman is Kouga's wife and Ginrei's daughter. Even if she's not Byakuya's mother, she's at least related to him if she's Ginrei's child, an aunt of some sort. Kouga does make some mention that as Byakuya's the 28th head of the house a long time has passed since his imprisonment, but we know nothing of how many heads of house there were between Ginrei and Byakuya. Ginrei could be the 27th or the 18th, I had always assumed Byakuya directly preceded Ginrei.

I'm even more convinced in the similarities in appearance and personality of Kouga that he's the father of Byakuya. Just look at the two of them! I was disappointed to not get any mention of a father-son relationship yet. What's more I feel as though Kouga himself would assume the role of head of house (damn, patriarchal systems) or his child. I felt the connection leant a great deal more importance to the arc and since it's not been addressed I'm losing interest in Bleach's filler.

Is there something I missed that stated or dismissed the connection? What do you think?

(Of course I find a related thread after I post this!)

Orionradar, Muramasa's first ability is when he takes control of the enemy's weapon-hand. We don't know if that ability is exclusive to enemies wielding Zanpakuto or if it extends to normal weapons. But even without that ability, he still has his own illusion abilities that Hollows CANT counter (since their Zanpakuto have no spirits) and like i said before, his mastery of swordsmanship and Kido makes him able to fight and kill any hollowGrimmjow2 21:33, January 27, 2010 (UTC)

I personally think that Bleach is a great story of tragedy; it makes many points about how deep down, no matter how you look at it, everyone is human in some way. And that makes the stories of the bad guys particularly sad. Koga is one of the biggest examples I've ever faced, up there with Kaname Tosen. He was a great guy, but look how far he fell. Honestly, I think both Soul Society and Koga are at fault, though. On one hand, Soul Society has consistently been shown to be negligient in enforcing the law, punishing people or forgiving them without seeming to give things much thought. I personally didn't like the original Central 46. On the other hand, Koga really overreacted. He didn't have to kill the higher ups, maybe just force them to recant. Then he would've remained the hero, and he would've kept his good-guy thing. But he didn't. From then on, he messed things up for himself. I don't mean to sound coldhearted, but it's the truth.

I'm thinking that he would do fairly well with the Espada. He's pretty tough even without Muramasa. His Kido is really destructive, his swordmanship skills are great, his speed and reflexes can help him dodge strikes at point-blank, and he does have his illusions. I don't think that he'd be able to use any of Muramasa's known powers against Hollows, since Muramasa's sole ability is disrupting the bonds between Zanpakuto and Shinigami. Even considering making swordsmen cut themselves with their swords, that is an extension of taking over a Zanpakuto so that it can forcibly yank the sword in a certain direction. Senbonzakura released himself to save Byakuya's life, after all, and he did cut him when Muramasa disrupted their bond during his training session with Renji. So that should mean other Zanpakuto should be able to do something nasty while in sword form. But that's not the point. The point is, Muramasa disrupts Zanpakuto-Shinigami relations. That's the sole aspect of his power. But he wouldn't need to depend on him in a fight with some, if not all of the Espada. Aeron Solo (talk) 01:17, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

Father?
I noticed that some poeple on here are saying Kouga was his father. 1) He is anime only and 2) His father is Sōjun Kuchiki who died in the line f battle and was lieutenant of 6th division which is a rank higher than what Kouga attained before his tragedy 3) When explaining to Ichigo why he did nothing to stop the order of the central 46 for Rukias death that his parents were dead meaning Kouga is a anime-only uncle to Byakuya. On a side note why doesn't he have an article?Umishiru (talk) 08:21, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, Koga has a page Kōga Kuchiki. Secondly, people were saying all those things because when they were saying it, everything about Koga hadn't been released and more importantly, we didn't know about Sojun Kuchiki. Tinni  (Talk)  10:16, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

As for the whole "Kouga could be Byakuya's father thing", there is no way Kouga is Byakuya's father. In Chapter #179 p. 14, when Byakuya is telling Rukia about her sister, he tells her he was conflicted because he swore to his PARENT'S GRAVE he would never again break the law. Obviously the Zanpoktou Arc is much later in the canon's timeline, so there is no possible way Kouga is Byakuya's father. Game, set, match :)! KenpachImaru (talk) 23:28, December 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * ... Okay, the Zanpakuto Arc is NOT in the canon timeline. It's not even in the Anime timeline. It has no timeline. It's an AU if you like. Same with Amagai Arc. Only arc that sort of has a place is the Bount Arc and that's only because it was shoe-horned between the end of the Soul Society Arc and the start of the Arrancar Arc. That is all. Every other anime only arc is set in a "multi-verse" if you like. I mean, for one, Yamamoto has his arm in all of them and Yamamoto loses his arm permanently at the end of the Arrancar arc. Indeed, Soifon still has her arm in all of them and she may well have lost her arm permanently. Not saying she did, just saying that if Kubo wants an armless Soifon, he can invent some reason like "things destroyed by respira cannot be returned" or some rubbish like that. Tinni   (Talk)  23:48, December 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * PS. What's this about "game, set and match" based on chapter 179? The game was "set and match" when Sojun Kuchiki got revealed. Absolutely no need to bring-up chapter 179, which is a very indirect way of going about establishing that Koga is not Byakuya's father. Tinni   (Talk)  23:48, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Tinni is right. Chad's complete arms and Ichigo's first hollow mask type do not coincide very well together in the same story arc outside of Hueco Mundo, either. And the whole thing was settled when Byakuya's real father was brought up in the first place. So yeah, though chapter 179 is an ok way to back it up, I personally think that it's not the trump card you lay it out to be. But you're right, that does help prove the point. But Anime-only arcs are rarely to be trusted, as the people writing them just make up random stuff to keep us occupied while they let Kubo get ahead in his writing.
 * So, to sum things up for anyone wanting to add on to this part: NO, KOGA IS NOT BYAKUYA'S FATHER. THAT WAS A FAN THEORY, AND IT HAS ALREADY BEEN QUASHED WITH NUMEROUS PIECES OF CANON EVIDENCE. THERE IS NO MORE NEED TO ARGUE THIS POINT. Aeron Solo wuz here (Chat) 01:33, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * So, to sum things up for anyone wanting to add on to this part: NO, KOGA IS NOT BYAKUYA'S FATHER. THAT WAS A FAN THEORY, AND IT HAS ALREADY BEEN QUASHED WITH NUMEROUS PIECES OF CANON EVIDENCE. THERE IS NO MORE NEED TO ARGUE THIS POINT. Aeron Solo wuz here (Chat) 01:33, January 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * So, to sum things up for anyone wanting to add on to this part: NO, KOGA IS NOT BYAKUYA'S FATHER. THAT WAS A FAN THEORY, AND IT HAS ALREADY BEEN QUASHED WITH NUMEROUS PIECES OF CANON EVIDENCE. THERE IS NO MORE NEED TO ARGUE THIS POINT. Aeron Solo wuz here (Chat) 01:33, January 3, 2011 (UTC)