Talk:Reiryoku/Archive 1

At last...
At last the mystery is solved: Spirit Power is Reiryoku, and Spiritual Pressure is Reiatsu. Problem is that it is not used very often, so the title of the article should be Spirit Power or Spiritual Energy instead in my opinion. Domlith 16:09, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Death stone prevents airwalking?
What is the source for this information? It is true that they do not walk in the air while in Seireitei, but is it because of the stone? Is it stated somewhere? Domlith 13:51, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

What do we use for articles?
It's not a big deal, but just want to keep consistency in character articles. Are we using "Spiritual Power" or "Spiritual Energy" when rating a character's reiryoku level? Manj (talk) 05:19, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Spiritual Power. Some of the older pages have Spirtual Energy and should be changed--God (Pray)  05:20, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I'll try to get right on that. I changed some pages to "Power" but then read this page and changed it back because I thought I was doing it wrong. Manj (talk) 05:23, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

Transcendental reiryoku
Considering how it was showcased during the Deicide mini-arc, shouldn't it have its own entry in both the reiryoku and reiatsu sections of the wiki, or is there not enough known about it to make an entry?


 * Transcendental is not a power level. Aizen said he and Ichigo had become transcendent beings, as in they were above Shinigami now. It is Aizen's wording and his arrogance in play. It is not real nor was it ever stated to be a power level nor anything other than a word Aizen used to describe how powerful he and Ichigo were.--


 * That is all correct as Godisme pointed out. There is also no confirmation of proof as to there being anything remotely transcendental. He fought Ichigo evenly or at a disadvantage and the combat was no different then any other battle beyond Aizen changing form. Aizen's claims are never substantiated nor relevant considering he ascribed the concept to himself, which was grossly artificial power and just a greater increase in spiritual power to fuel his skill. He also ascribed the concept to Ichigo who we know used extended training of his natural abilities to combat Aizen, there was nothing anymore transcendental about that then any other character doing that as well. It was nothing more then an attempt at grand language being used, not a confirmation of anything --Salubri (Talk)  19:38, January 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * While you do have a point there, both Aizen and Ichigo demonstrated key factors that separated them from the rest in Deicide. While it is true that Aizen's power was artificially by the Hogyoku, there is still the issue of his reiatsu being unsensable. Isshin could not sense Hogyoku Aizen's reiatsu, the same way that Aizen could later not sense Ichigo's reiatsu at all, even when he was just about to throw it all at Aizen through Mugetsu. There is also one crucial fact we observed about Tensa Zangetsu in Deicide: the fusion with Shirosaki Zangetsu, making them one power, instead of separate Shinigami and Hollow powers, as they used to be, and as they are with Vizards and Arrancar. While we do not know the specifics behind their nature, the nature of their power and reiatsu is still drastically different from anyone else in my opinion. The sheer magnitude of it, and the fact it exists in a different dimension from Shinigami and Hollow reiatsu is why I felt it deserved its own section. -- Catalyst75


 * Hollow Ichigo and Zangetsu had always been one being. This is stated from the very beginning. Many people forget about this. If both Aizen and Ichigo had a "transcendental spiritual power level" then why could Aizen not feel Ichigo's reiatsu? Surely if they both had the same power level they could feel each other's reiatsu? The fact is that no, they were not on a plane above Shinigami and Hollow, they were just really strong Shinigami. Notice how Ichigo dismisses Aizen's every claim, saying it is not true. They had both grown immensely in power but they were still nothing more than really strong Shinigami with huge amounts of reiatsu.--


 * God is right, they were just really powerful by comparison to other Shinigami, and not feeling Ichigo's Reiatsu was just a part of Ichigo's current abilities!! If you want to take Aizen's words for it, remember, the entire time he assumed that he was the smartest Shinigami and that Urahara had not learnt how to master the Hogyoku, however, this was also disproved when it was revealed Urahara had outsmarted him and managed to seal him!! Aizen is a very arrogant character, because he is rarely challenged, and he is not the only arrogant character to make claims so we can't count them all as facts!! And please, if you are referring to Hollow Ichigo, use that term, he is not called Shirosaki or anything else, he is merely part of Ichigo's powers along with Zangetsu, they are both one and the same as they developed at the same time!! SunXia   (Chat)  05:40, January 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * So where would that leave the Hollow side of both of their powers. It is because that side exists that they were able to exceed the boundaries of Shinigami, but only because their Shinigami and Hollow powers had fused to become a new entity and reiatsu, instead of possessing a dual reiatsu like Arrancar and Vizard, that they could reach such levels of power in the first place.  That is what Hollow Ichigo and Tensa Zangetsu becoming one again symbolizes.  So in a technical sense, they did transcend both Shinigami and Hollow.  I also feel that I need to remind you that Isshin could not sense Chrysalis Aizen's power either, and Aizen still could not sense it when Ichigo was radiating reiatsu in the FGT state.  It is not an ability; it is a nature of reiatsu.  Ichigo's reiatsu was at such a high level that Aizen, whose own reiatsu could not be sensed by Shinigami or Humans unless he lowers it to a level where they can sense it, could not comprehend Ichigo's power.  Aizen referred to it as dimensions of power, so while he was right that one time about him and Ichigo being a separate dimensional levels, he made the mistake of assuming that his level was higher.


 * There is no evidence to back any of this up. What you are doing is speculating and piecing things together. Never before have we seen unsenseable reiatsu. That is not the nature of reiatsu, it is something new that was introduced and not fully explained. What we do know is that Hollow Ichigo and Zangetsu were always one being. There"fusion" is not really a fusion as they were one being to begin with. So that does not symbolize anything. Aizen was nothing more than a Shinigami. He did not transcend Hollow and Shinigami, he was just arrogant. He did not gain Hollow powers like so many fans believe him to and he was just making stuff up to make himself seem more powerful.--

Wow this is getting silly!! Read our Policies, we do not speculate here and that is exactly what you are doing!! Ichigo's powers have always been both Zangetsu and Hollow Ichigo, it was stated many times throughout the series that this was true!! Otherwise, how do you explain the times when Zangetsu was there but the Hollow side wasn't there and vice versa (and no, the filler fodder does not prove anything, non-canon), Hollow Ichigo stated that he was Zangetsu because they were both Ichigo's powers, just different sides of the same coin meaning Ichigo had not mastered those particular abilities when he had to face them!! Aizen frequently referred to himself in God-like format, do you want to call him a God now as well?? No, stop speculating based on words that arrogant characters spew out mid-battle, speculation does not belong in our articles!! SunXia  (Chat)  06:29, January 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * As Godisme and SunXia have already explained, Aizen has no hollow powers, his powers are shinigami powers increased by the hogyoku, while it enhanced his capability through various forms this was nothing hollow-like (in fact Aizen states he would never become a hollow or rather stoop to using their powers). The only one that is visored in this situation. His Inner hollow and zanpakuto spirit share the same "spiritual body" hence why they are normally not in one anothers presence as that is determined by which one is in charge (predominately zangetsu). They are both two halves of Ichigo's power that have always existed together at the same time since he gained power. Their fusion was their attempt of using Ichigo's full power against him, nothing more then that. The same could be said of any shinigami though in that case it would be simply a zanpakuto spirit going all out as shinigami dont have inner hollows. There was no transcending anything, not even remotely hinted at on either occasion. Also Isshin couldnt sense Aizen and before Aizen fought Isshin he couldnt sense him either. Reiatsu is suppressible, its capable of being hidden and greatly manipulated in a variety of ways, masking ones spiritual presence isnt unheard of issue. In this particular case he admits he is controlling it so that only those he chooses to lower himself to their level and that Isshin states that Aizens spiritual power can only be sensed by someone that is at the same level as him. So the hogyoku suped up his power but there was nothing transcendental about it. Ichigo's power was compressed so great that his strength was enhanced greatly as was normal for him as previously it was compressed so much that he had only hyper-speed combat. This was also misunderstood by Aizen who thought he had just gave up his spiritual power for strength. Nothing transcendental here either, also until he changed the look and initiated the FGT he wasnt in it, this was showcasing the full capability of his powers and not the bankai he artificially gained previously. There seems to be no notice of the fact Ichigo's power is rushed through the entire series while its explained real power takes alot of years of training. Ichigos natural power just so happens to exceed Aizen's arrogance and high praise of himself. Also if you notice alot of assumptions are proven misinterpreted and inaccurate assumptions on his part. --Salubri (Talk)  07:26, January 8, 2012 (UTC)