Talk:Shunsui Kyōraku

Typo
I know this is not a major issue but still, being a bit of a perfectionist when it comes to English this is kind of bugging me.

Under his Powers & Abilities his trait Master Strategist & Tactician it says in the second sentence: "According to Yamamoto, even when he was younger, Shunsui has always had an eye for seeing the truth character of anyone he meets."

Shunsui has always had an eye for seeing the "truth" character of anyone he meets. The "truth" character? I think "true" character is more fitting. But, the page is locked and I can't fix it. So I guess if an admin catches this or someone gets a chance to fix it when it gets unlocked please do. It is urking me. =p Thanks. Ltjuno (talk) 11:20, August 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Fixed. 16:32, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you kindly! Ltjuno (talk) 16:35, August 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you kindly! Ltjuno (talk) 16:35, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Reiatsu and defeat of Starrk
Continued from edit history.

"Thats not true they were in a fight when he defeated starrk who just wasnt paying attention when he got hit)"

Starrk's attention was focused on Love and Rose at the time. If the results of Shunsui's other sneak attacks are any indication, Kageoni wouldn't have worked nearly so well if Starrk was aware of Shunsui in the area. He also never landed on the ground in the first part of the fight, so I doubt Kageoni would get a chance to be used. And even if he landed, it would probably be after Shunsui was in the kind of shape Love and Rose were, so... Zira1 (talk) 08:29, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Im not sure what your talking abut he attacked his from behind true but that attack didn't weaken him any they fought up front after and Starrk lost he wasn't strong enough, his defeat by a shikai proved as much. The sneak attack had nothing to do with it. There is nothing in the fight that proves that it did. If your going the additional footage put into the anime then thats also incorrect the information up is from the manga. Kageoni wasn't even being used when Starrk was defeated.--Salubri (Talk)  08:41, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Umm, generally when a sword goes through your spine, it effects your combat performance. After Kageoni, his speed was hugely reduced. How do you explain him being able to dodge attacks from behind (Which was Shunsui trying his best to kill him, he said so himself: http://manga.animea.net/bleach-chapter-362-page-11.html ) Then is unable to dodge a head on attack, even when he sees it coming? http://manga.animea.net/bleach-chapter-374-page-18.html

Shunsui was going to use Bankai in a head on fight after one use of Cero Metrelleta, so I don't see how it can be argued that he can win in Shikai without two other captain levels to distract Starrk.

I also don't think that that line even belongs in that section anyway. His kill of Starrk doesn't say anything about reiatsu, it just means he had the right tools for the job. Zira1 (talk) 18:09, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

All matter of injury in the series you can make claims on how it affect the performance but in all characters continue to fight anyway. Starrk was not paralyzed or half dead, he didn't even think of how he is badly damaged or anything. Which brings one to the conclusion the injury wasn't an issue to his continuation of the fight. We are not stating something based on what could possibly be. Also Shunsui was thinking about using bankai but he didn't and still defeated him regardless. Also spiritual power is directly proportional to the overall power as its what all shinigami life and power run on so it does belong in the section as it stands to how great his power is in comparison to those who were incapable of a feat at that level on a high ranked opponent. --Salubri (Talk)  18:33, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, how do you explain Starrk's sudden decrease in speed then? As I said, he even sees the "black" slash coming, and can't avoid it. As for why he didn't think of how badly damaged he is, when has any character in the series ever shown thoughts like that? Why would you spend time thinking about it when you already know? And as I said, his speed was noticably decreased, regardless if he commented on it or not. Zira1 (talk) 21:48, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

What is your point? There have been characters in the series that sustained more damage than Starrk without any visible effects on their overall combat performance. That's the equivalent of saying that Zaraki's combat performance took a dive during his fight with Nnoitra, when he was getting slashed repeatedly to the point that he admitted he would die if he went on like that; despite that, he managed to take him out with ease once he whipped out Kendo. The same goes for Starrk; we can't say that his speed took a dive simply because he was injured. Also, seeing an attack coming doesn't always mean that you can dodge it. Mohrpheus (talk) 22:04, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Not all characters are as durable as Yamamoto, Komamura, Kenpachi, Ichigo, ect. The Kageoni would have at least cut his spine somewhat, which is more crippling than the wounds Zaraki took from Nnoitra that you used as an example anyway. I know that seeing an attack coming doesn't always mean you can dodge. But if you go from dodging surprise attacks like this: http://manga.animea.net/bleach-chapter-362-page-7.html or this: http://manga.animea.net/bleach-chapter-363-page-13.html to being unable to dodge an attack you can see coming at you, I'd say that there's been a decrease in your speed. Zira1 (talk) 22:15, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

"We are not stating something based on what could possibly be. " Actually, that is exactly what is currently being stated. The statement in question implies that the result of the battle would have been identical had Love and Rose not interfered, which absolutely cannot be verified. As for reiatsu being an exact indicator of Shinigami strength: obviously not. Aizen had twice a Shinigami captain's normal reiatsu as a Shinigami -- yet he defeated no less than 7 of them. Much of what happens in Bleach battles depends largely on circumstance and a balance of abilities, aka, "match-ups". I thought everyone would have understood that after Ishida's and Sado's battles with Demora and Iceringer -- unless you think that Hisagi is genuinely more powerful than Tosen? Anyway, I think that its fairly hypocritical to denounce speculation as a whole and yet openly speculate that Shunsui's overwhelmingly amazing reiatsu had anything to do with his defeating of Starrk, despite no direct reference being made to said overwhelmingly amazing reiatsu. Curious91 (talk) 23:31, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

The statement as it stands now simply says that he has an immense amount of Reiatsu and that his strength is great enough to beat the primera with shikai only. There is no speculation in there. It does not say that it was only because of his reiatsu that he won. It does not say anything other than that he has an immense amount of reitasu and that he has strength enough to beat the primera with shikai alone. All of this is true. We are not putting some speculative statement up there that he only won because Starrk was injured. We do not know that. The fact of the matter is that he beat Starrk with Shikai alone and that is all the statement says--God (Pray)  00:03, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

I'll admit that the "with his Shikai" part doesn't really belong in that statement, as that has less to do with his reiatsu and more to do with his actual combat ability, and the advantages he gets from his individual abilities. However, the statement doesn't mean that he won because he had higher reiatsu, it means that if his reiatsu weren't on par with Starrk's, he wouldn't have been able to win against him in the first place. We can't say that having his spine cut affected him at all, because:

1) that would be making assumptions about Arrancar anatomy (Starrk already has a hole where part of his spine should be)

2) as you said, durability varies greatly among different characters, so we can't make any assumptions about one character based on another

3) as was said repeatedly, nobody said or implied that it affected Starrk in any way, so we have no way to reference that it happened

4) with the same logic, Shunsui should have slowed down as well after being shot in the back; instead, he was able to outmaneuver Starrk.

Mohrpheus (talk) 00:16, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

"Immense Spiritual Power: ...His strength is shown even further as he was able to defeat Coyote Starrk, the Primera Espada, with only the use of his Shikai." That has nothing to do with reiatsu. And I reiterate: he did not defeat Starrk with "only the use of his shikai" -- he had distractions in the form of Love and Rose. Because of Love and Rose, he managed to get at least one hit that he otherwise would not have gotten. Whether or not that attacked damaged Starrk as much as Zira1 claims it does is entirely irrelevant. To assume it did not is speculation. To assume that he could defeat Starrk "with only the use of his shikai" is also purely speculative, for the reasons mentioned above. There is no absolutely evidence to indicate that Shunsui could have won that fight without Love and Rose -- because he didn't. Even stating that his reiatsu was great enough to pierce Starrk's hierro is not confirmable, since we do not know how Katen Kyokotsu's cutting games affect that (specifically, depending on the color Shunsui called he was barely able to cut Starrk or able to fatally wound him). Curious91 (talk) 01:13, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

You are missing the point. Did he beat Starrk unnarmed, with kido, with a sealed sword or with Bankai? No, he beat him using shikai. That is a fact that cannot be argued against. As for the damage he took, we know nothing of Arrancar anatomy, we do not know what does and does not slow an arrancar down and so it is speculative to say it did. As for reiatsu being unrelated to beating Starrk, it has everything to do with it. Zaraki says that a battle between shinigami is one of reiatsu. The same would go for a battle between shinigami and arrancar.--God (Pray)  01:21, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

you know besides getting that hit thanks to love and roses distraction no one has mentioned how the further use of his pistols and the actual use of his entire pack of wolves would have afected the outcome had he been able to use them if he didnt waste them on love and rose which i think is an important factor.Peinuchiha (talk) 01:34, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

We do not speculate. We don't know how that would have changed the outcome and so it is not mentioned. We state only the facts.--God (Pray)  01:38, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

There is way to much biased opinion in this. As Godisme stated what happened is what happened. Starrk lost and Shunsui won. There is no disputing what took place in the fight. Assuming the attack affected his performance we dont know that it did assuming that it did didn't change the fact the primera espada lost the fight. Saying that Shunsui couldn't defeat if not for this or that is false, where as saying he defeated him with his shikai is actual fact. There is no evidence to say if it wasn't for this or that he wouldn't have won. Im not sure you understand the concept of what this page is for Curious91. Its about discussion on the content of the page. The content is correct as to what took place plain and simple. You dont have to like that Shunsui won but he did so, with his shikai, one on one with starrk and starrk was defeated. Its that simple. Now whether he was injured or not it makes no difference if that affected his performance as their is no indication of that besides personal opinion. As for whats listed as Godisme stated one spiritual power is representative of ones overall power. The fact that a high ranked espada was defeated by shikai alone where others would have used bankai speaks to the innate power that shunsui personally possesses. Its not a statement about his shikai its about his power at just initial release. We arent playing the "only reason he won game". Its a fight things happen you either win or lose. Love and Rose didn't barely scratch him whether Katen Kyokotsu affects any of the battle doesn't matter, Starrk still was defeated. So unless there is proof that Starrk wasn't by his own rank the most or one of the most powerful espada defeated by Shunsui who was using his shikai at the time there is no argument to be had. Also arguing for the sake or arguing when you dont even know the context of the argument doesn't help. It doesn't matter what could have happened we only chronicle what did.--Salubri (Talk)  01:48, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

I am putting an end to this discussion. Couple of things, 1. In the masked Kubo made it clear that Espada is ranked according to reiatsu alone, thus Starrk has the great reiatsu of all Espada; 2. Kyoraku was injured, Starrk was injured, then Kyoraku defeated him using Shikai - end of story. We are not going to speculate whether either of their injuries effected their performance. Especially since as Starrk is a Hollow, I can very well claim that he had regeneration and so while they were standing and talking, Starrk's injuries healed themselves. How would you refute me exactly if I said that? Is there any evidence that Starrk doesn't have regeneration? Sure he might not have the instant, super powerful one that Ulquiorra has but says he doesn't have lower grade high speed regeneration. That's the problem with speculation. Bare facts is that Kyoraku defeated Starrk in shikai, i.e. without the aid of the boost to his reiatsu he would have gotten through bankai or anything like that. So, bottom line, Kyoraku's reiatsu in shikai was so great, he over came the reiatsu of Starrk. That statement in factual and unspectacular as it is. Tinni  (Talk)  02:59, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

"Effortlessly" and Misleading Exclusion of Ukitake
Under Shunsui's "Flash Steps Master" heading, it claims that he was able to "effortlessly" avoid Starrk's attacks. I think this is a bit too flavorful for a wiki that is supposed to avoid speculation (he did indeed avoid injury while keeping his Kimono and hat on, but his hat didn't avoid injury quite as well).

Also, under "Master Swordsmanship Specialist", it claims that "While in battle, his power is said to be stronger than any other. His power is unrivalled by anyone who came before him or anyone since." This is actually not true; it was he and Ukitake's combined power that Yamamoto was referencing, not Shunsui's alone. I think the sentence is misleading (the same line is also on Ukitake's page, and is again misleading -- but I think it would be redundant to have the discussion twice). Curious91 (talk) 21:39, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

The flash step issue is not debatable starrk himself even expressed his skill. The swordsmanship was debated about a year or two ago this is what was decided on by all involved even by are translators as the words dont detail how the statement is meant so in fact this has already been addressed. --Salubri (Talk)  21:44, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

See Talk:Shunsui_Kyōraku/Archive_1 a full debate on power. We actually went back to the raw and had it confirmed by no less then two translators (external translators as we didn't have the translation corner back then) and Yamamoto was not referring to their combined power. Tinni  (Talk)  21:47, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

@ Salubri: You misunderstand my complaint. I am asking only for the removal of the word "effortlessly".

@ Tinni: I have two problems with that: First, two people can't be unmatched. Either they both match each other (in which case the statement is false for both) or one doesn't match the other (in which case the statement is false for one of them). Second, Yamamoto clearly indicated that he was more powerful than any other Shinigami in chapter 394.

Also, from the archived discussion that you linked me to: "Yep, Sheetz is considered one the best translators out there in Bleach Fandom." --> "this is what Sheetz said,

Yamamoto says, "And at one time, as far as fighting is concerned, that strength surpassed the rest. Amongst your peers and your predecessors there were none to rival you." ' ''Just going by how it's written it's kind of ambiguous in that what Yamamoto says could refer to either their individual strengths or their combined strengths. Logically, however, we have to assume that Yamamoto himself has always been stronger than either of them individually, so he was likely speaking of their combined strength."''

So of your translators, the one who was considered better gave his input that Yamamoto must have been speaking of their combined strength (which agrees with what we know from simple logic: two people can't be unmatched, and it agrees with the later statement that Yamamoto himself is actually the singularly unmatched Shinigami) -- and yet the other translation was used? Forgive my confusion. Curious91 (talk) 22:10, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

What was used was because he couldn't be sure what it said, he gave his opinion on it and said it was together, his original point is that was ambiguous as to what it was referring to. After debating we determined it made no sense to state the sentence at all in reference to two people on each characters page. The information presented on their specific pages are only supposed to detail there individual power that is the way we chose to address it. Also please dont use a wiki is supposed to line here we dont claim to be like any other wiki and alot of the things we would like to do as a wiki we cant do to the misinformation, vandalism and so forth. So we go from the manga and proper translations and thats all we can do. We aren't going to conform to simple standards that other wiki's do. Users can either be ok with that or not no one is forced to be here. As for the removal of the word 'effortlessly" unless he struggled it was effortless. Starrk was surprised by his ability to do so. He wasn't having a problem here he was playing the situation he dodged it with no effort multiple times. --Salubri (Talk)  22:25, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Please address my points instead of simply stating that "it's been resolved". I read the archived discussion that I was linked too, I know what occurred. Please address the fact that the current interpretation (on this Wiki) disagrees with both what "one [of] the best translators out there in Bleach Fandom" believes and with what can be logically deduced, as well and what was revealed in a more recent chapter.

That is a false dichotomy. One can exert effort without struggling. Curious91 (talk) 22:45, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Just going by how it's written it's kind of ambiguous in that what Yamamoto says could refer to either their individual strengths or their combined strengths.

This is Sheetz's assessment as a translator. This is what we are using - Sheetz says that the source material is ambiguous, so it was decided to go one way instead of the other. Maaru backed this up by pointing out that it is hard to translate accurately because of a particular kanji.

Logically, however, we have to assume that Yamamoto himself has always been stronger than either of them individually, so he was likely speaking of their combined strength."

This is Sheetz's interpretation of the translated statement. However, we can only use Sheetz as a translation resource; we can't take his/her opinion as fact.

As far as "effortlessly," perhaps it should be changed to "easily" - he had no difficulty dodging, but it still took effort to do so. Mohrpheus (talk) 22:59, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Thats a good point easily can work just as well then. --<font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  23:03, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, easily would be more appropriate. That said, I understand that the team here was faced with two differing scenarios and that one of those scenarios was chosen over the other to represent in the article(s). What I am saying is that, in light of what is explicitly stated in chapter 394 and from what can be logically deduced, the interpretation that was chosen cannot be correct. At the very least, the ambiguity in the manga should be mirrored in the Wiki. Curious91 (talk) 23:31, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Yama said that no Shinigami stronger than him had been born in 1000 years. This has nothing to do with swordsmanship. Just because Shunsui is better in swordsmanship than Yama does not mean that Shunsui is stronger. You have to consider all other things as well, Kido, Hakuda, Moblity. Look at the battle data charts and you will see that there are many categories that Yama is still stronger in. Yama only lacks in physical strength/endurance. --<font color="black" face="Verdana">God <font color="black" face="Verdana">(Pray)  23:53, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

@ God: I understand that, but please examine the phrase in question: "While in battle, his power is said to be stronger than any other. His power is unrivalled by anyone who came before him or anyone since." Nowhere in that phrase is the term "swordsmanship" or even "zanjutsu" used. It only says "power".

From what we've seen, Ikkaku is better than Yamamoto at swordplay, so I could understand that assessment. But that isn't what that refers to. Curious91 (talk) 03:09, September 1, 2010 (UTC)