Forum:Policy Violations

Folks if you are going to do the notice thing and then put the name of the user on a special name and shame page you really have to be careful about whether they actually violated a policy or whether you just think they violated a policy. I mean, today the first english subbed Bleach episode was released by GetBleach much, much, much earlier than it normally is and available on BleachExile (http://www.bleachexile.com/). However I notice that violation notices had been issued. Are you guys sure an actual violation happened or was it a case that being unaware that the episode had been released you made a mistake in issuing the infringement? I mean, this isn't the first time I noticed admins undoing things with the message "don't add information from chapters/episodes not yet available in english" only to find that a chapter and episode has been available for the last hour on BleachExile or some other site that is not OneManga or Dattebayo. I guess what I am saying is that, if you are going to do the violation notice thing you have to make damn sure you are not making a mistake. So either check the prominent sites yourself to make sure something hasn't come out or before you give an official warning ask the user to explain themselves. Because it really doesn't look good to penalise users who have done the right thing just because you guys weren't aware that they were doing the right thing. Tinni 01:26, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what incident you're referring to, but perhaps if you have a problem with a particular admin or if you would like to contest a particular warning being issued, then you should bring it up specifically with him/her rather than making a somewhat insulting, non-specific rant. And if you've already done that, then it's really not necessary to make a forum about it, in my opinion. Twocents 02:28, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * sigh I am not ranting and I am not insulting. I am simply bringing up an issue, that is in fact an issue. I have already brought up the specific issue that happened THIS time with Arrancar109. But this is an ongoing issue. I wasn't being insulting. Just saying that now that you have a page of violaters you guys need to be careful who you put on it. As Yyp can testify, I have had to revert his/her "undos" on multiple occasions because he/she undid something believing the english chapter/subbed episode was not out when it was. This time Arrancar109 put an user on the violation page but there is reason to believe that user had in fact done the right thing and only added information after a subbed version came out. I don't know why you are being so sensative since I neither ranted or insulted and I am certainly not refering to something that's happened to me personally. I am just saying that it doesn't look good on admins if they name and shame users who haven't done something wrong. You don't gain anything by antagonising users without due cause. Tinni 02:41, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

This seems like a spoiler policy issue, but to be fair the spoiler policy first went up in april before you were a contributer on the site Tinni and the reason why it even exists is because of constant information being put down on the articles before it could be readily verified by any source in actual english. Now granted since then there has been far less people quick to jump the gun on spoiler content. though a while ago more and more users became aggressive in putting the information up there as if it was a race to be the first person to put previously unknown info out and admin started taking a zero tolerance policy toward those edits. Now i understand entirely where your coming from in that some sites have information out before others but how does it look when one person is coming out with all this information filling up the pages and nobody else on the site is even aware of the information being out. Now obviously if the information is out be it manga or anime subbed, dubbed or scanned in english already then its good to go no question but while they cant be faulted for following policy admin can't be faulted for making sure that policy is followed. Everybody is technically doing what they're supposed to. Now the way I see it is if their following the policy and admin in question is not aware that its out that should be discussed between the two and the issue is done. a simple link to a anime sight or manga sight and we go about are business and any warning given shouldn't count toward a violation as noting has been violated. Salubri 03:16, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * My point was that there is no clear guidelines on how to get yourself off the violators list once you on it. At least most users aren't aware what they can do if they get a violation. I guess what I am saying is that perhaps you can have a delay of like a day before you put a person on the "list of people issued with warnings" page to give the user ample time to respond and explain themselves. All I am saying is that now that you have a permanent list of people issued with warning, there should be some mechanism in place to get people off the list and some buffer before putting people on the list. I mean, it's embarressing and actually discourages people from even making good faith edits. I know it must have sounded like a good idea at the time but I really think you guys haven't thought that page through. I personally don't think absolute new editors should go on that page. They should just get a warning on their talk page only. If they violate again, then they go on that page. But that's my opinion only. Tinni 03:23, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Then what would you suggest to get yourself off the list? Good faith edits dont appear to be the issue for people on the list if they were making good faith edits they wouldn't be getting warned. Prime example we have one guy who was putting fan art up theres no explanation for that its not allowed its clear as day. We got others for blatant vandalism, removing content from the pages, removing references, removing the admin warnings on the talk pages of the user, inappropriate language, insulting others, posting general discussion on talk pages. Like i understand where your coming from with the spoiler issue but the fact is that all these things could be alleviated if people read the policies and manuel of style. The point for the list is that when one person gives a warning that person gets forgotten in the shuffle then they go and do it again and next thing you know your in an issue with someone whose already been warned or told 2-5 times what the deal is. If theres an explanation for the majority of reasons why people get on that list i dont know what they would say. Notice people making good faith edits are not on there. The list is for people obviously violating policy no ones keeping them from reading policy they just dont care or choose not to read it. The list is meant for the admin to keep track of those people, if they get warned more then once all the more reason putting it on there page isn't enough to remember that we already warned them before if they do it again. i personally if someone doesn't know i just remind them and tell them where they can go to read the policy ill only do the warning if they violate obviously when they should know better. I personally have yet to put anyone on the list. But at the same time absolute new editors arent all innocent some people just get on to do blatant vandalism. Salubri 04:57, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that you should have given Arrancar109 time (by which I mean at least 24 hours) to correct his mistake. It is entirely possible that in the five minutes between a sub version coming out and the edit being made that he wasn't aware of that. Instead, you chose to make a public forum, rather than providing time for him to remedy the mistake. I'd find it insulting if someone chose to rally people around, especially using phrases that make it sound like I'm an idiot for not being aware of every translator of Bleach videos and chapters, rather than bringing a rather minor issue to my directly to my attention.

As for the list itself, we did discuss it quite thoroughly before reaching a consensus. Since it was a discussion among admins, I understand that you are not aware of the time entailed in working out the details. However, if you read the page, you can see that we've already addressed the questions you've raised. At the top of the page it clearly says that those who have been warned for minor offenses and who do not continue to disregard policies can be removed from the list after four months automatically. Those who commit a serious offense will be removed automatically after one year. If someone is placed there mistakenly, they can tell the admin the reason for whatever (in this case, the reason for posting what appeared to be a spoiler) and they'd get removed from the list. I don't know if that person told Arrancar109 where a sub version is, but it's also entirely possible that he didn't even know that a subbed video came out, and was, in his own mind, violating the spoiler policy. As Salubri said, if people read the policies and followed them, we really wouldn't have these issues in the first place. Twocents 05:29, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * O dear god. This is why I didn't name names originally. It's not just about Arrancar109 and this time. What happened this time just made-up my mind to bring this issue up. This has happened in the past and in the past it wasn't a big deal. However, now it is a big deal because an users name is on that name and shame list. In addiction, the excuse you provided is inadequate. If as admins you are going to issue the violation notice then the onus is on the admins to make sure a violation actually occurred. All I am suggesting is that all admins follow a guideline before issuing violations notice, especially when dealing with a spoiler violation. I am not being unreasonable here. This is what I suggest the admins do when they suspect someone is violating the spoiler policy,

Manga chapter,

1. Someone makes an edit that appears to be before the chapter is out

2. Check onemanga to see if the chapter is out

3. If no, check www.mangatoshokan.com to see if the chapter is out

4. If no, check bleachexile.com to see if the chapter is out

5. By this time it's pretty certain that the chapter is in fact not out, but if you want to be through check readbleach.com and mangahelper.com

6. If the chapter is not out in any of those places then it's probably not out and you can issue the violation notice.

Anime episode,

1. Someone makes an edit that appears to be before the episode is out

2. Check Dattebayo website

3. Check bleachexile.com

4. Check bleachportal.com and maybe bleach7.com (although they only ever link Dattebayo episodes as far as I can tell)

5. If the episodes are not out in any of those sites then the episode is probably no out or out somewhere obscure and you can issue the infringement notice.

This is what I do when I suspect someone is violating the spoiler policy. I do this because it is important to me that when I am reverting someone's edits under the spoilers policy I am doing the correct thing because I don't want to do an "oops, my bad, it seems the chapter/episode is out". It doesn't reflect well on the admins.

I am not being unreasonable and I don't see why either of you are being so defensive. I am mere suggesting that all admins follow a set guideline when issuing spoiler related violation, or any violation notice for that matter, so that they do not issue violation notices in error and do so uniformly across all admins. I agree it is on the user to read the policy but the onus is on admins to make sure an actual policy violation is happening. In the case of spoiler policy violation and reverts, in my experience there has been issues. I am not attacked Arrancar109 personally and I could careless about the incident that happened today. I am simply suggesting that guidelines be put in place so that when you as an admin issue a violation notice, you are 100% certain that you are in the right. I am simply trying to help you guys avoid accusations of shooting first and asking questions later. Lastly, you are not the thought police and can't dictate your behaviour based on what you think the user might be thinking. All you can do is check that the chapters and episodes are no out and if they are not, then issue the violation.

If you do that then yes you don't have to wait 24 hours or anything before putting users on the list because you can be sure that you are right. Right now what you guys have been doing is unfair, you are issuing violation notices and then instantly putting peoples names on that list. Giving no opportunity for the users to explain themselves. It is not a simple matter of getting their name off the list once they are on it, if they haven't done something wrong they shouldn't be one the list in the first place. Yes I am aware that you all talked about this a lot but none of you ever considered this from the users point of view. If you had then you would have put a 24 hour delay. Users should be given an opportunity to explain themselves before being named and shamed. That is exactly what that list is and should be treated like that. I mean, if that list was a private page only admins could see, I wouldn't care, but the fact that anyone can see that page means that you as admins have to be very certain before you put a name on it. I am not seeing this. What I am seeing is shooting first and then asking questions. I hate to say this guys but that's not a good image to portray of the admin team. I am saying this as a friend who just wants to see the admins of this wiki avoid getting a bad reputation. Tinni 06:10, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, I am not going to push this issue further. I have explained myself in great detail and if you guys still don't see a problem or are happy with how things are now, well that's fine. I said my piece and I felt I had to say it ever since that list page was introduced, and now it's all up to you guys. Tinni 06:35, November 18, 2009 (UTC)