Talk:Kaien Shiba/Archive 1

Resembles Ichigo
The whole Appearance section just says that he's like Ichigo's lost twin. Never does it mention his hair color, eye color, body, any special outfit or anything at all. Just that he's the result of Szayel using his carbon copy technique on Ichigo (well, the other way around, but you get what I mean, right?). I could give it a try, but I'm not really good at describing looks. Lia Schiffer 08:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Shikai
Isn't Kaien's release command for his zanpakuto also "Rankle the Seas and the Skies" in the english dub in episode 49?

Sign your comments on talk pages. And yes, it was. I've been thinking about moving the recent command edit to the Trivia section, since, like Ichimaru and Rangiku's, it's had more than 1 release command in the dub. Arrancar109 03:02, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Profile Picture
Kaien's picture is quite old (SS arc I suspect). Maybe it is time for an update. Here's a good one I came across. Thoughts? Anyone have other pics? --Yyp 20:55, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

It looks pretty good, except isn't that from the Turn Back the Pendulum Arc? Oh well. It's still a good one. --Gold3263301 21:02, November 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but comparing the current pro pic with this one, he looks the same to me. --Yyp 21:09, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

$$Insert formula here$$

Personally, I don't think it matters, since Kaien's dead anyway, but that's just me. The image seems to be okay. Arrancar109 21:11, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

How about these two:--SalmanH 21:19, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

or

Like I said, I don't think it matters, but overall, I think #1 is best so far. #3 would be in second. Arrancar109 21:21, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it matters either. My vote is with #1. Kaien wasn't as young as the others during the Turn Back and Pendulum arc, nor did he change his appearance much. You know, it's not like he grew is hair like Ukitake or change his hair and beard like Kyoraku or fill out physically like Aizen (or am I the only one who think Aizen bulked up in the last 100 years...). So I say #1 is the best. Tinni 21:26, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

It was probably just the change of clothes, but I think he may have gotten taller as for the profile pic, I seem to like #2 since it fits with his personality (the dominant parts anyway) but which ever you guys think is best.--SalmanH 21:37, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Hey, I was directed here by Yyp. Basically, he told me that all pictures had to reach some criteria; but he didn't specify what the criteria were. If I know what I are, then I can look for a better picture (hopefully) than the three suggested. Glacial Blaze 19:56, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Where possible, profile pictures should: be facing the camera; include his full head; be close enough to make out facial details such as eye colour; be a good image quality; show normal facial expression; be free of background distractions; be in good lighting; be free of errors and marks such as subtitles. There are probably other things too, but I think that will give you a good enough idea. -- Yyp  (Talk)  20:24, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Kaien's Spiritual Energy Level
Ganju said himself that even by noble standard, Kaien naturally had great spiritual energy and was already at lieutenant level when first entering the academy. Its obvious that with years of training his spiritual energy would grow higher. I personally think that Kaien's spiritual enery level should be classified by "great" rather than "high", as high suggests his energy is only average for a lieutenant. --Steveo920 16:30, December 29, 2009


 * We have set definitions of what the spirit power levels are on the Reiryoku page (link goes to exact place). I went through most Shinigami characters' pages the other day linking the stated power levels to that page just so that people could see why they are the way they are. You said it yourself - he was stated to have lieutenant level power. Saying anything beyond that is speculation, no matter how obvious it might be to you. We can only go on what is stated in the story, and he was only ever stated to be a lieutenant. -- Yyp  (Talk)  21:45, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

"Child" prodigy
I am sorry but I can't find any reference to the fact that Shiba Kaien was a child when he completed the Shinigami Academy course in just two years. Only thing people ever said about him was that he was a genius. He simply do not know how old he was when he went to the academy. I think we should drop the "child" part and just call him a prodigy/genius. Tinni  (Talk)  01:27, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Considering that this kind of borders on the conversation of even questioning if he is a genius which had already taken place when it was proved that he was a genius. One would have to determine how old he was when he entered the academy by Shinigami standards anyone going to the academy is uncommonly young but the picture painted is that he may have not been as young as gin and definitely not Toshiro when he entered. Though i dont see how it matters its mentioned only once in the explanation as he is a genius whether or not a child is debatable but he was a prodigy. Salubri (Talk)  01:39, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Attendance
Kaien is first attendant in Chapter 83 which was adapted into Episode 25, not in Chapter 133 which was adapted into Episodes 48 or 49. It's a fact, not an opinion. See in this link for his first appearance --Gran Danku 13:10, June 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yup, this is correct and it has been changed. Yyp  (Talk) 16:06, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Shikai Gif
I guess you can say that Kaien doesn't really need a gif to illustrate his ability. But the two still that are in his shikai explanation seem a bit much. So I made one gif that shows his entire release and its water manipulation. Do whatever you guys want with it. Tinni  (Talk)  15:00, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

Im gonna agree with you on this. Salubri (Talk)  15:05, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

Evidence for Enhanced Strength
lieutenant flying. During their fight, Metastacia attempted to strike Kaien with his feelers. The hollow missed Kaien and his feelers dug into the ground. FInally, when Kaien tore apart one of Metastacia's feelers it was revealed that the feelers are composed of three large green muscles. In light of this evidence I would think that it is safe to assume that Kaien possesses enhanced Strength.

Kido Expert??
Kaien Shiba only displayed his skills in Kido in the anime. We won't justify his enhanced strength for a feat he accomplished in the anime, so why should he have Kido Expert in his Powers and Abilities section?? Spiritwarrior (talk) 23:44, December 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Whether it was in the anime or not has nothing to do with it. Kaien did not display enhanced strength, we have told you this many times, you refuse to accept it. Kaien did display an expert level of mastery over kido. Case closed.--

Release Call correction
Let me start by saying that since BLEACH has had such a long publication history--whether it be as JUMP weeklies, their translations oldest to newest, or the later (and sometimes corrected/altered) volumes--there are many errors from earlier translations which it could take time to correct, as they are often overlooked as settled. The goal, then, is for anyone perusing older material to raise possible issues where they might see them.

In that vein--and, again, forgive my tardiness in noticing it, and in noticing any future ones--I linked to the "Nejibana" section of Kaien's page and found that the current translation of that Zanpakutou's release call seems to be incorrect (if the words used are accurate to the manga).

The current version has suiten sakamake as "rankle the seas and the skies", but the verb sakamaku (from which the imperative form sakamake derives) is actually said to be intransitive, not transitive. Thus, rather than commanding Nejibana to perform the verb's action to something else (here presumed to be = suiten), Kaien's call actually commands the subject of the line (again, suiten) to perform the verb's action itself.

Whether you want to render suiten as "water(s) and sky(/ies)" or "water(s) and heaven(s)" is up to you guys. But sakamaku does not mean "rankle" (which = "vex, irritate"), but instead "swell, surge, welter (of waves or the sea)" (< the more lit. "wind or coil back/in reverse")--though I admit that rankle, if it were the correct translation, can be used with either transitivity, and the incorrect translation could be seen as a poetic phrasing equivalent to "seas and skies, rankle ye/yourselves!".

In summation, suiten sakamake means "water(s) and sky(/ies)/heaven(s), surge(!)" (which can, of course, be written also in the order "surge[,] water[s] and sky[/ies]/heaven[s]"), asking the waters and skies themselves to surge or swell, as in tempest.

Feedback or queries are welcome; I'll try to reply to them in a timely fashion :). Adam Restling (talk) 23:10, December 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm with you on this issue. Sakamake has no secondary meanings either, so "rankle the seas and the skies, Nejibana" is definitely wrong. Let's try to think of a nice way to phrase it correctly, because it is a very poetic command... Mapar007 (talk) 22:22, January 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I gave my suggested possible translation (poetically XD) above in the bold: "surge, water and sky" :). Adam Restling (talk) 13:03, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Spiritual Power
Can we change Kaien's Spiritual Power to "Great"? He was noted to have especially high spiritual power even by noble standards. Steveo920, 18:10 January 5, 2013

Viz release phrase.
I went back and checked, and the Viz version of Kaien's release doesn't use the word "rankle" at all. He says "Rage through the seas and heavens" (and, although it isn't canon, he says "Rage across the seas and heavens" in Third Phantom). Schiffy (Speak to me |What I've done ) 02:34, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

Episode 49, he uses "Rankle the seas and the skies." I see no reason to change it just because Viz wanted to use a different translation in a later episode. Arrancar109 (Talk)  02:36, March 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Didn't realize that. I should probably note that what I was watching was actually Aaroniero/Kaien, anyway. Schiffy  (Speak to me |What I've done ) 14:07, March 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * It's alright. You brought up a valid point. From what I've seen, though, all of Viz's variations of Nejibana's release command has been noted on his page - Viz's manga variant, which is noted in his Zanpakuto section, and the anime release phrases (episode 49 and Aaroniero's release command). So, they're all noted on Kaien's page anyway. Arrancar109 (Talk)  04:11, March 20, 2013 (UTC)

Zanpakutō Release Call
Is it really necessary to write it out as "Surge, Water(s) and Sky/Heaven"? It looks really convoluted. Adam Restling suggested just "Surge, Water and Sky" in one of the topics above. Orchestrator of Supremacy (talk) 11:46, June 22, 2015 (UTC)


 * Yea that is a good point, It has been fixed.--