Talk:Shin'ō Academy

Not under the jurisdiction of the Central 46
"Also, the academy is not under the jurisdiction of the Central 46 Chambers."

I removed the above unreferenced line from the article as Soifon implies that Aizen was awarded his teaching position by central 46 in chapter 391. Of course, it could just mean that as a Gotei 13 captain, Aizen needed special permission to teach his calligraphy course (doesn't seem very plausible, captains have a lot of freedom). Alternatively, it could mean that Aizen had to have his resume approved by Central 46 before the Academy would hire him. Whichever way, the implication is that central 46 does have authority over the academy. I have also not put in an explicit statement that Central 46 does have authority over the academy because I can't really reference something like that either. So at this point, it is best to leave things somewhat ambiguous. Tinni  (Talk)  04:12, February 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not certain, but it may have come from this image from Book of Souls. Depends on how you interpret the diagram. I would find it very strange if it were not under the authority of the C46 (just doesn't seem sensible), but with Kubo, who knows. -- Yyp (Talk) 17:54, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Id have to agree with Yyp here. The book clearly shows the academy as apart from the organizations controlled by the Central 46. All information points to them being a judicial branch with legislature and administrative issue begin controlled most likely by the royal family. In any case it specifically notes that they control the Kido corps, the special forces and the Gotei 13. It never says they control the academy. Logically speaking why would they it was made 2000 years ago there obviously existed a soul society before the concept of formalized education. Therefore it stands to reason that their authority predates the academy. The academy do not have certified shinigami yet so, its not really an issue. Also Soifon's comment doesn't really seem to have anything to do with the statement. She was referring to Aizen's appointment as a teacher. As we all have seen a captain coming to the academy for any reason is a big deal. It would stand to reason that in order for a captain to be given leave to teach amongst their other important duties within the military structure they would have to ask for permission. They are given plenty of control in military matters and control of their own division but outside of that they need permission. Remember Gin got in trouble when Ichigo first arrived. Salubri (Talk)  18:22, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Well according to the book of souls, that very page in fact, the Gotei 13 didn't exist until Yamamoto founded it as well. So to say something like "the Academy is not part of the control of Central" because it's new is fallacy. If the Gotei 13, an organisation founded by Yamamoto, can be under its jurisdiction then so can the Academy. For all we know, Central 46 is newer then both the Gotei 13 and the Academy. Universities are often created through legislations of parliament. These legislations usually grants them a certain measure of autonomy but still does mean that the government can step in and dictate certain things. So I call speculation on both saying that Central 46 controls the Academy and that Central 46 doesn't control the Academy. Frankly, we don't know. Tinni  (Talk)  18:43, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Well be that as it may, despite finding fault with my reasoning, I must find fault with yours as its not mandatory that a school is created upon legislation there are public and private institutes. In any case there is nothing stating a government has control over a institution of learning outright and the case is true in this instance. We dont know much about this situation. So we will go with the information given the book of souls lists it as apart of the structure so therefore the statement is true. There is no disputing that point every other organization is listed there connected in one way or another to their authority. the central 46 deals in judicial matters there powers come from established law. They enforce the law through the Gotei 13/Special forces/Kido corps and their related departments. The academy as shown stands as apart as the noble families do. The academy exists to train souls in becoming shinigami and then put them in positions in the established military which the central 46 has control over. Salubri (Talk)  21:44, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, I feel this is relevant to the discussion; a link leading to a definiton of Jurisdiction

Through this definition, it is most probably the case that the academy falls under the jurisdiction of the Central 46.

[[User:SquirrellyWrath|SquirrellyWrath 23:26, February 5, 2010 (UTC) ]]

If you guys think its anything but speculation, you can put it in with the relevant reference. But I maintain that a diagram is not a good indication of the Academy and the Noble families not being under the jurisdiction of Central 46. Remember that they have in the past issued ruling against two members of four great noble families. Namely, Yoruichi - who is the head of the Shihoin family and Rukia - a member of the Kuchiki family. If they didn't have jurisdiction over nobles, they couldn't issue judgements against them whether they were Gotei 13 members or not. All you can really say is that Yoruichi is STILL the head of the Shihoin family and that's probably an indication that the noble houses have their own rules and have a measure of autonomy and central 46 cannot force them to pick a head of the family or cast aside a head of the family with their rules. Which is exactly what I am saying about the Academy. I am sure they have a fair amount of autonomy. But Central 46 is still the highest judicial body of Soul Society. Therefore, it stands to reason that they have some authority over the Academy. So the sentence as phased is erronous because the Academy is in Soul Society, therefore it is under the jurisdiction of Central 46. Perhaps a better sentence that can address all our concerns and be more in line with the diagram is "The Academy is not under the direct control of Central 46". Tinni  (Talk)  02:45, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Now your talking in the way of speculation the central 46 chambers have never ruled on anything involving the noble families. We do not know the rules of the noble families or what is the situation of Yoruichi. She may have been stripped of her noble title by the family itself. We don't know, but we do know that it is never stated the central 46 chambers had anything to do with it. As for Rukia she was charged as a shinigami of the gotei 13 not as a noble and note to mention the one person who could have had say on that (byakuya) refused to do anything to help her. We dont know what the procedure is. In any case as i stated we have to go with what is given. Once again if you question the book's integrity on that point then we question everything from it. It clearly depicts it separate. The central 46 deals only in judiciary process im not sure where a school falls under that but in all it would have no reason to have control over a school. We know for certain the central 46 has control over the military organization that much is stated without question in multiple areas. There is no mention of the school. We cant assume they have control on any level any more then they have control of the citizen's of soul society. Judgement on law breakers and the military is all they are said to have authority on. If you break the law yes your under their jurisdiction if your in the military yes your under their jurisdiction. So in that way yes the school is under their jurisdiction if they are involved in breaking the laws of soul society or official business with the military. Salubri (Talk)  03:11, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

I am not speculating. Book of SOULs page 99, Central 46 - "they handle all rulings on Shinigami and souls who have violated prohibitions." Therefore, the school is under the jurisdiction of Central 46. I mean, the sentence I removed didn't talk about "control", it talked about "jurisdiction". Jurisdiction is a law term related to the application of the law. What that means is that if someone commits an act that violates the prohibitions of the central 46, central 46 can't do anything about it because it happened outside their jurisdiction. Sort of like New York District courts can't prosecute crimes that happened in Miami. They have to send the person back to Miami for them to be prosecuted. I am saying that is incorrect. There is zero evidence that anyone in Soul Society is beyond the jurisdiction of Central 46. What I am agreeing with is that Central 46 probably does not have direct control over the Academy. As in, if the Academy suddenly wants to do away with Hoho training, Central 46 can't stop them. However, if Academy scholars suddenly decided to research hollowfication and Central 46 go wind of it, they could step in and put a stop to that because Hollowfication research is against Soul Society law. See the difference? That's why I am suggesting that we insert the line "The Academy is not under the direct control of Central 46", which is an accurate description of the diagram as presented and doesn't speculate on whether the Academy falls under the legal jurisdiction of Central 46 or not. Tinni  (Talk)  03:33, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Then the whole conversation was pointless. Instead of having this long debate the question put forth should have been to remove the word jurisdiction and and replace it with control. Instead of getting into a long discussion about what Soifon said when talking to Aizen. That bore no relevance to the line. We dont know the issue involving Aizen. I dont dispute their jurisdiction either in this case, though control is a far better term to use. Salubri (Talk)  03:59, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

That would imply that I knew from the start what the problem was. I told you, that was an unreferenced line. It was not until Yyp suggested that it might have come from the diagram that I had a clue what the basis for that statement was. I figured out the best way to express the situation as we were having the discussion. But now that I have, I'll add the proper sentence and reference. Tinni  (Talk)  04:03, February 6, 2010 (UTC)