Talk:Zangetsu (Zanpakutō spirit)

Adjuchas-class or higher?
I think that the note about possibly being an adjuchas should be removed, because of the paragraph before stating:"If Ichigo were ever to turn into a complete hollow, it would be the end of the world, according to the Shinigami." I think that would be enough to illustrate his power, and anyway, how would a mere adjuchas be the end of the world when even Rukia can kill one? Wouldnt that be a decrease in power, because Ichigo easily "kills" an adjuchas (it turns out the adjuchas is still alive later, but thats what you get for not releasing Bankai). If it says anything about a possible hollow class, I think it should say possibly Vasto Lorde.Crimmastermind 06:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of the same thing

I'm not sure if the "end of the world" statement is even in the manga, but I won't touch it for now. However, I have removed claims of Hollow Ichigo being an adjuchas or vasto lorde. Technially, both classes are made up of multiple hollows, with one's willpower in control. While his strength is at least as strong as an adjuchas-class hollow, Hollow Ichigo is still technically a singular hollow, since he hasn't consumed other souls or hollows in all of Bleach canon. Arrancar109 21:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

His name is NOT Ogihci.
Look here. A mirror writing is different from a backward spelling. Now let's take a word like bid. What is the backward spelling of this word? dib. Now what is the mirror writing? Same, bid. The backward spelling of Ichigo's name and the mirror writing are different things altogether. And most importantly, the mirror writing was in Japanese. I forgot to mention this in the article, but a Japanese mirror writing will deviate from an English backward spelling even further. Therefore, the Hollow Ichigo's name is not Ogihci Ikasoruk, and as he claims, we can say that he actually has no name. :(His Wrath falls from the Heavens. :Starshade) 06:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Ichigo vs Ulquiorra
I think the section which say: ''While he is quite confident that he can defeat both Yammy and Ulquiorra together, Ichigo in his Vizard state could not inflict a scar on Ulquiorra. It is assumed that this is either because the Hollow's power is absolute but Ichigo is yet to learn how to use that power fully, or simply because the Hollow was underestimating Ulquiorra, and only recently gained the power to match him.'' is misleading, because it implies that Ichigo's attacks cannot damage Ulqiorra, much like his first attacks on Kenpachi. However, this is not true, since when Ichigo fired his Getsuga Tenshō at Ulquiorra, he said afterwards that it was too powerful for him to stop (though I admit that he managed to dodge it and was not really hurt as a result of the blast). Still, at least reword the paragraph (under trivia) so that it better reflects this fact.Crimmastermind 06:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I wrote the paragraph, so I guess I should be responsible for it. Okay, but until recently the fact that Ichigo's full power Getsuga couldn't even hurt Ulquiorra is true. So I think I'll just add that part (which states that even though he was unhurt Ulquiorra couldn't block it either) to the paragraph. What do you think? :(His Wrath falls from the Heavens. :Starshade) 21:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Getsuga doesn't work against Ulquiorra, even now. I think since the Grimmjow fight, Ichigo has gotten stronger, which means his hollow has gotten stronger.  That's why he was able to crack Ulquiorra's sword and force him into releasing.  Whether or not the hollow itself could beat Ulquiorra is immaterial, since Ichigo is (firmly?) in control.Big red01027 21:44, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

New Cero
This may be stupid but I think that since Ulquiorra's Cero is called Cero Oscuras meaning Dark or Black Cero, then Ichigo's Cero should be called Cero Blanco meaning White Cero (because of it white appearance). Hollow Ichigo is know for using white attacks so I'm pretty sure the color is white. The reason I say that is because most of the words that have anything to do with Hueco Mundo are Spanish words. Just a suggestion. --- Klross1.


 * There is no proof as of yet that Ichigo's cero is white. I mean yeah, it is possible that it will be, either stated by a character, or shown in the Anime (MUCH later, unfortunately), but do not forget that manga pages are naturally black and white. Just because Ichigo's new cero looks white in the manga doesn't confirm it until someone from the story (or Tite Kubo) states it. Don't forget, in the manga pages, just about every cero looks white, so it's too soon to assume that Ichigo's new cero is white. Arrancar109 19:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It's worth pointing out that the color page for chapter 353 shows that Ichigo's cero is white with a dark-pinkish trim like that on his black Getsuga Tenshou. Daisekihan 00:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * We can't take the luxury of inventing the techniques name, just because it seems to fit. If it hasn't been given an official name, then, just like Ichigo's Hollow, we can presume it has no name, or at least that it doesn't have one yet.Lia Schiffer 01:02, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

If I would have known that the comment I made was going to create a problem I wouldn't have put it on here. I also know that it's quite hard for one to forget that manga pages are black & white when i read various manga everyday (as i'm sure others do as well). I was just saying.. like everybody else does. It's called voicing ones opinion. If need be this "New Cero" section can be taken down by anyone if it's going to cause anymore "speculation" or "inventing" problems. (thnx:) ---Klross1.

Scarmask
One thing I had to notice was that the illustration on chapter 289, titled the Scarmask, featured a (top right quarter of a) skull face very similar to Ichigo's new Hollow mask, though there are notable differences. Do you think Kubo drew this to foreshadow Ichigo's new transformation? Its different shape and coloring might be because the design was still being processed, like Di Roy who appeared as early as in the first arc. :(His Wrath falls from the Heavens. :Starshade) 12:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The changes to the mask are very pronounced, the horns are now pointing upwards and much longer, also the mask does not have the face of a human school. the design on it is nothing like the current mask, etc. etc. I doubt it.Killa0norris 00:34, 21 March 2009(UTC)

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/289/02-03/ before

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/08/ after

Compare the two mask, the only resemblance is the horns.Killa0norris 00:36, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

not sure if this is relevant but if you look at the new mask on this hollow form it has more black then his normal mask, it was original thought by many that this represented the control he had, what if this is actually the amount of the hollows powers he is accessing (similar to the tails in naruto) this would explain why when it first appeared in the series it only had 1-2 strips and increases with the strength of his opponents

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/351/02/

Fawcettp 00:27, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Automated transfer of Problem Report #23585
The following message was left by Anonymous via PR #23585 on 2009-06-25 08:08:46 UTC

Under the Fake Karakura section, it states that Hollow ichigo uses "Shunpo" to get behind Ulquiorra and rip his arm off. This is incorrect. Ulquiorra himself recognizes and distinguishes it as "Sonido"

Technically it is a shunpo but its speed is as fast as a sondio wich is faster than a shunpo the difference is when arrancar use sondio they make a vrrrm sound the shunpo does not.


 * Firstly, Ichigo cannot preform Sonido. Second, Ichigo's Bankai grants him speed which surpasses the limits of Shunpo, when he ddecides to use it. Minato  (Talk)  21:30, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Yo
You know, could someone please get a picture/video from Bleach 233? Cause the Hollow taking over on that episode looked great - KingBlackChicken

energy release
should it be mentioned that whenever ichigo regains control over his body, after the hollow side takes control, there is a massive release of energy (as seen all three time the hollow has had complete control (vizard training, fighting zangetsu ep 233, and when fighting in HM)) this is great enough to shatter hachi's barrier and destroy several pillars in SS Fawcettp 09:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The Creature in his Chest.
In episode 233 there was a creature that popped out Ichigo's chest that attempted to consume Muramasa. Does anybody know what that is?--22:13, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * the worm thing also appears during his vizard training Fawcettp 01:57, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

It Looks similar to the touge of the Arrcanar when they first entered Hunco Mundo. Otherwise I am not quite sure myself, since the inner mouth of a hollow could be the touge, if you notice in the early manga and Anime Hollow have a second mouth inside their main one. -Desruprot

Hey i'm new here. i think that each vizard has a measurement like hollows. i think b/c of ichigo "naturally" became he can evolve like hollows.

it reminds me of the soul chain when it starts eating itselfKensei24 21:30, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Trivia clean-up
As per the junk trivia topic, I have removed the following things from the trivia section:

''Hollow Ichigo has stated that he doesn't know what he is. This could mean he might not even be a hollow, but something in between a Hollow, a Shinigami, a Vizard and an Arrancar. Also, he shows some of the ordinary Hollow characteristics, like the black eyes, but he neither has a hole nor a mask. Also, despite him being a hollow, Hollow Ichigo performs Shikai and Bankai much like a Shinigami, a feat that the Espada are not capable of. This is likely due to the fact that he was created in the very same moment as Ichigo reacquired his Shinigami powers after losing them during his first fight with Byakuya Kuchiki. As none of the inner Hollows of the rest of the Vizard was yet shown, it could be that he is a unique being.''
 * I shortened this to "Hollow Ichigo has stated that he doesn't know what he is." The rest is speculation.

When Ichigo transforms into a Hollow form during his second fight with Ulquiorra, he speaks only briefly to Orihime, though it is unknown whether this is the hollow mocking her or Ichigo speaking, though the latter is unlikely, as Ichigo doesn't remember anything after the fight.

''In his second form, despite being seemingly a berserker, Hollow Ichigo did not attack Orihime at first sight, being his only instinct was to "save" Orihime from any kind of danger, whether it's a friend or an enemy since he can't tell the difference in his current state. Why she is the only person Hollow Ichigo won't hurt is still unknown.''
 * These two were removed as we don't know that that form was controlled by Hollow Ichigo.

''It is unknown if this is truly an evolved form of his Hollow state, or something to do with the power of a Vizard. In either case, it appears that Ichigo is unable to control this power as of yet and may have to fight Hollow Ichigo again to gain that power.''
 * The remainder is either speculation or junk. --Yyp 20:07, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Personally I choose to believe that the reason Hollow Ichigo's berserker stage did not attack Orihime can be seen in two possible ways, 1. He attacked the two beings with the most powerful offensive abilities because he was distracted from ripping Ulquiorra to shreds by Uryu he moved to the next highest threat, had he finished Uryu off he might have continued onto Orihime, 2. It is possible Ichigo either purposely or subcontiously allowed his hollow half to reach it's most powerful level in the distinct need to protect Orihime so while Hollow Ichigo took over the one portion of Ichigo's mind that was still present was the portion that needed to protect Orihime. Of course this is all just speculation.

Also, Hollow Ichigo doesn't know what he is, this isn't really unnatural seeing as Ichigo really doesn't know what he is either.

My idea of looking at it is, Shinigami have inner hollow's that can manifest through different ways and in different varieties when they don a hollow mask, when they hollowfy they 1. gain the inner hollow 2. draw power from the inner hollow and allow if to manifest (1 is more likely), and when hollow's shinigamify and take off/break/change their mask they become the inner hollow with outer shinigami powers, so hollow's don't have an inner shinigami they gain an outer one, furthermore there are different ways of looking at Hollow Ichigo's zanpakto abilities 1. when a shinigami becomes a vizard their inner hollow becomes their mirror (the reason Hollow Ichigo seems more powerful can be either because hollows are somewhat more powerful than shinigami due to their brute force, or perhaps it's just Ichigos hollow that's more powerful because Ichigo doesn't give it his all in the fights with him) 2. it is entirely possible Ichigo's inner hollow is unique because of Ichigo's Uniqueness of being the child of a shinigami and a human, the second is very likely seeing as all the other vizard seem to have only needed to conquer their inner hollow once while Ichigo's is ever present and threatening to continue trying to take control, but again it's all just speculation. --Fuhrer Reaper 21:03, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Inner Hollows
I think that vizard's inner "hollows" aren't hollows at all. Think about it; arrancars are the opposite of vizards and you dont hear about arrancars have inner shinigami. I'm just saying.

Take it to the forums or the blog page. The talk page is not for airing speculation or crack theories. Tinni 02:34, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Ulquiorra's arm ripped or cut off?
Ok, there has been some debate about whether Ulquiorra's arm was cut off or ripped off during chapter 350/351. The debate has, however, been carried out via user talk pages & edit messages. I thought it best to move the discussion here so that everyone can see it, and so that it is in one place. I've copied some relevant posts here. --Yyp 20:48, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

As of right now it's too vague to say what happened either way because I don't know what verb Ulquiorra used exactly [in Japanese] when he was talking about his regeneration abilities his arm in chapter 351. I believe that will help to make things clearer unless of course it gives an indefinite meaning and can be translated either way. Let's just hope that is not the case. MasterDeva 21:53, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

From what i can see Ichigo does have his sword in hand and Ulquirra does loose a arm to him those are facts, whether or not it was cut off or ripped off can't be known as its not shown all you see is the arm coming off and in the part of the scene you dont see the sword, which maybe obscured behind his back. In any case it would seem to fit that it was ripped off as there is nothing to prove that it was cut off with the sword. Stating that he was holding the sword is not the same as stating that he actually used it to cut the arm off which cant be clear. What we do know is that from what is shown it appears that it may have been ripped off by sheer strength alone (logically for the purpose of showing the strength of the new transformation). Salubri 00:03, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

First I'd like to remark that I came to the conclusion that Ulquiorra's arm was cut not because the Hollowfied Ichigo was holding a sword but through a series of indications suggesting that. The only reason I mentioned that the later was holding a sword before and after the confrontation was merely because Minato88 said that in the picture shown the transformed Ichigo was not holding a sword, which is incorrect. Now to the indications I talked about earlier. First in the first panel right before Ulquiorra's hand is grabbed we see something resembling blood coming out of his arm without Ichigo having made physical contact yet. Suggesting he first cut him up and then he grabbed his arm, which could actually make sense. Second in the next page we see the stance that he is in hints that he made a cutting motion. It should be noted that this isn't the first time Ichigo has cut off someone's arm (assuming he cut off Ulquiorra's arm), the first was when he took Yammy's avenging what he did to Sado's arm and the second one being, arguably, avenging Ishida for what Ulquiorra did to him. Third, we see in the first panel right under the "ripped arm" picture the wound in he's which appears to be too clean for an arm that was seemingly ripped off. These are the points that I base my argumentation. What would seem to be the key is in the phrase in the next chapter (351) where Ulquiorra is talking about his regenerative abilities and he refers to his lost arm. I don't know which verb he used when he was referring to his arm or if the meaning of the phrase is indefinite and can be translated freely according to how a translator seems fit. That's why I thought that you would consult a translator about this since as an admin you could have access to a translator that is helping with the site, well... Anyway that's my thoughts about this, I'm hoping that I can get a feedback from you regarding this, thanks for your time. MasterDeva 19:24, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to add this when I was writing my reasons and its an important one as well, here it is. Fourth, if the arm had been ripped off it would have been from one of the joints, as they are the weakest points of a limp anatomically, that's not what happened here. Thanks again. MasterDeva 21:02, October 19, 2009 (UTC) 


 * "First in the first panel right before Ulquiorra's hand is grabbed we see something resembling blood coming out of his arm without Ichigo having made physical contact yet."
 * That is not blood, - I'm 99.9999% certain that it is Ulquiorra's wing (or rather the hairy bit at the base of his wings). Again, I'm don't want to get into this, but I thought it was important to point out. Your other points are good. --Yyp 19:44, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * It doesn't look like a wing to me, check it out here and tell me what you think, it seems it goes around the SFX and not behind! http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/17496/18?t=1255982167 MasterDeva 19:59, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Much clearer pic: . I didn't know what it was at first, but it is behind his shoulder (i.e. on his body). If that was blood - it should be coming from lower down his arm (where the injury is), but it isn't. So it doesn't make sense to me that it is blood. Also, an attack from that angle, imo, would mean the wing would have been cut too if the sword was involved, but it wasn't (link:). But that doesn't mean that it absolutely wasn't cut off. It is open to interpretation (and that is why I didn't really want to get involved - I even vaguely remember thinking that it was cut off when I first saw that chapter). But at the moment, I'm leaning towards rip rather than cut. --Yyp 20:48, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * The reason I thought that it wasn't his was simply because 1) we don't see his other one in the same picture, 2) it seems to be going around the SFX pattern not behind from it (if it was the wing Kubo would have drawn it without the spaces, the reason I used the raw was because of this), 3) Ulquiorra seems to be turning to face Ichigo so his wing doesn't seem to be getting in his way anyways and finally 4) it doesn't seem to matter to Kubo from where the blood should be spreading as long as it is artistic lol. MasterDeva 21:15, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * It does seem to be the fur/hair Ulquiorra has around his back it's just that Kubo (or one of his associates) didn't draw the wings in that frame while it's obvious that he should and looks weird. Scratch that point form my list. It's always helpful to have another set of eyes, you never know what you missed. For someone who doesn't want to get involved in this you are doing a very good job Yyp, hehe. MasterDeva 22:23, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

I have changed it to his arm was CUT off. Can we please just leave this alone? Minato88 23:37, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * If the admin is okay with it I don't have a problem. I did this because I wanted the information on the wiki to be correct/clear not to torture anyone. I sincerely apologise for the trouble I have caused to you, I hope you understand. The funny thing is that in Ulquiorra's page was written as cut all along. MasterDeva 00:12, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Violet Cero
I was thinking that maybe we should put a picture of Hollow Ichigo's violet cero after the tri-focused one. Kon lover123 05:38, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

I think that we did do it at some point, but it was probably removed because the image wasn't good enough, even though it was the only shot of it. I'll look into it. Arrancar109 05:42, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Questions about Introduction
I have some quick questions about the introductory paragraph's content and sources:


 * When is it stated that his formal title is "The Hollow Within Ichigo's Conscience"? Is there a specific place where it's mentioned, and if so, could a source be added?
 * Should Hollow Ichigo really be labeled as an "antagonist"? He always struck me as more of an anti-hero.
 * In the table under his picture, under "Affiliations", could Zangetsu be named as a previous affiliate?
 * How is it possible to claim that he doesn't affect the entire Bleach universe, when Ichigo wouldn't have stood a chance against any arrancar without the power he acquired from his inner Hollow?
 * Can I delete the last sentence- ' '"He had disappeared after Ichigo defeated him in his Inner world. Hollow Ichigo will most likely return soon as he said that if Ichigo wanted to control his power then he should not die before he shows up again."' '? Part of it seems like speculation and he has appeared again in the most recent arc of the anime.

Sorry I have so many questions; any answers would be greatly appreciated! Arigato! -BlazingStar 02:17, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

1) Hollow Ichigo resides in Ichigo's inner world, that can be thought to be Ichigo's Conscience but "inner world" is probably a better understood concept in the Bleach verse.

2) He is antagonising the protagonist. Making him an antagonist. Anti-hero seems to be just more your point of view.

3) No because we don't fully understand the relationship between Hollow Ichigo and Zangetsu.

4) Hollow Ichigo is only inside Ichigo. He effects the outside world through Ichigo. Therefore, it is Ichigo who effects the Bleach Verse. Hollow Ichigo only effects Ichigo.

5) The change you are suggest is speculation. That sentence is directly from the manga and is not speculation. We know nothing about Ichigo's second Vizard from but Hollow Ichigo has not appeared in the manga yet and and last time we saw him, he was disappearing into the wind while saying "if you want to control my power, then don't die before I show up again". Tinni 02:38, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't "anti hero" the definition of an antagonist? -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:TR.jpg|19px]] 02:58, November 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * No. Anti-heroes are heroes without heroic traits. Antagonists are characters, whether they be heroic or otherwise, who stand in opposition to the protagonist. Twocents 03:08, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

And to add to Tinni's fifth point: his appearance in an anime filler doesn't change manga canon. We can't delete or alter that sentence until something regarding him changes within the manga. Twocents 03:13, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

2nd Form Power
Should we add it or at least take note that the Hollow Mask with the Horns that Ichgo changed into wasn't even at 50% power since his suit wasn't at full Bankai,yet he was still able to easily dispatch Ulquiorra with what seemed to be easily even though Ulquiorra was in his 2nd release form, and owned Hollow Mask/Bankai Ichigo. Deathreaper 20:41, November 16,2009 (UTC)


 * NO, because A) its destroyed whenever he enters his hollow forms, and B) he was "dead" and had no power to control his hollow Fawcettp 08:24, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * My bad I ment to say Hollow Ichigo.2.)How is it destroyed that could simply be a 2nd release form like Ulquiorra's and it really seems to be.3.)Like I said I ment Hollow Ichgo because he was in control at the time. Deathreaper 18:29, November 17,2009 (UTC)

Since when is adding speculative information a option, this is what the policy and manuel of style pages are for so this line of questioning is unnecessary. The fact is we dont know what this form is, whether it is normal to the vizard or anything to that point, nor do we know just because of the most recent chapter what power level ichigo had as it was not brought up till recently why is there a point to addressing something having already taken place when that information is more pertinent to the upcoming story. In fact Fawcettp is right he barely had any of the coat on in the new form and on top of that you would have to be able to compare ulquiorra second release to someone of power other then ichigo. All we know is that ichigo was more powerful then him that doesn't state anything else about ichigo or hollow ichigo then that. We haven't seen Ulquiorra's power against anyone but ichigo. So the confrontation remains between those two. To list what you want there would have to be relevance to others in the series besides saying that he was more powerful then this one person who is supposedly powerful but we have no one to reference that power against besides the guy who beat him. Point being Shunsui killed starrk with just shikai so if Ichigo had to go bankai plus a 2nd hollow form how relevant is the information when it states more of ichigo's need to gain more power just to beat the 4th espada. Your basically pushing for speculative information to be placed in an article. Ulquiorra second release was unique to him, the necessity of it apparently is a plot device to further ichigo's power development, whatever ichigo's new form is we dont know but we cant state something like its common knowledge and say they may or are kind of alike or his power was here or there. The power level argument is for information following chapter 382. Salubri 00:53, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Salubri makes some good points but in recent chapters it was reveled that at less than half power without mask he is as strong as a captain (just with no control) so saying that, it would indicate that ulquiorra was stronger that the average captain (as ichigo had both full power and mask). and my earlier point was not that he had almost no coat on but that in effect he 'died' releasing any control/restraint he had over hollow ichigo, and that every time he is controlled by hollow ichigo that his coat is mostly destroyed just by his spiritual power Fawcettp 03:32, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

The general point being is that its largely speculative to put down unconfirmed and ambiguous information with information not related to the subject. (i.e. listing current information with a past situation that had no bearing on the information now). As stated the information that is in question is trying to state that Ichigo is some DBZ super powered character when the fact that he had to go to another level on a opponent where others fighting more powerful foes didn't have to says more about his weakness then his power level. We can talk to where blue in face about what we think he was but that doesn't make it so. We can talk about how someone is as powerful or stronger then an average captain (whatever that supposed to mean, seeing as captains are elite and the pinnacle of power) regardless of how much spiritual power ichigo has he is no captain. Also we cant stipulate that he died as we dont know that he obviously isn't dead, he had a fatal wound and probably should be dead but there is no confirmation of death thats more a personal observation then fact. Salubri 04:24, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * And still you haven't understood what ive said. I said and ment should we take a note that in his more evolved form that without being at 50% power he was able to quickly dispatch of Ulquiorra in his 2nd Released Form while that Ulquiorra dominated a Hollow/Bankai Ichigo at 50% Power.How is that speculation when its simply going over a past battle and observing at hwta happened.2nd Released Ulquiorra dominated a 50% Ichigo with Bankai and Hollow Mask, while when he turned into his more evovled form yes while not being in control that form had the power to dispatch of Ulquiorra easily without much effort while still not being at 50% giving testament to how strong he must really be when at Full Power.Not speculation at all simple observation of what happened and whats been said .Yes when usually Ichigo turns into a Hollow his clothes rip off but thtas only whne he turns into a complete Hollow Transformation not a mask .And this form showed much greater spirutal power and his clothes still didnt rip off. And also its it so mcuh as it rips off or is it just being covered up since when the shell breaks off his clothes are back or could they simply being doing that for censorship. Deathreaper 16:52, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that it is speculation. Ichigo's explanation only applied to his bankai in its normal state. What you propose brings in other variables, namely Ichigo's Hollow mask. He never gave any explanation about how the bankai robe relates to his Hollow form, if it does at all. As far as we've seen, Hollow Ichigo uses a completely different reserve of spiritual power. Mohrpheus 23:25, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

How does thta only apply to his Bankai in normal state, by saying that when his robe is fully clothed at full power then by adding the Hollow Mask when he has that on and his robe is still at fully clothed he's at 100%.Adding his Hollow Mask to the equation does not affect his Bankai or the way it is, it simply boosts his power.No its not a completely different reserve of spiritual power its a dual spiritual power the mixture of a Hollow and a Shinigami.Saying he's using a different power means he has two sets of spiritual energy at his disposal.Also to what you said, yes he didn't give any explanation about how the Bankai robe relates to his Hollow form, but its common sense the Hollow Mask augments his power. Deathreaper 13:36, November 21,2009 (UTC)

Okay, let me settle this. It is NOT going in for a couple of reasons. First Ichigo's robe is an inaccurate way of gauging Ichigo's Reiatsu as it will not just vanish as Ichigo's reiatsu does. It has to be destroyed. Second, this new transformation somehow restored Ichigo to some weird new form. He didn't show any signs of weakness, injury (despite the fact he just had a hole blown in him), and somehow, Ichigo summoned a huge amount of Reiatsu which transcends his own. I don't understand how this happened.

Now it should be stated for the others who don't understand(Deathreaper already u seem to understand this). Ichigo's Inner hollow, once he takes over, doesn't use his own power, but rather amplifies Ichigo's and uses his body (like a puppet) and attacks with ruthless precision, power, and speed. For those confused it is IMPOSSIBLE for a single Hollow to possess the kind of power that Ichigo's Inner Hollow does. However, Hollow Ichigo is actually apart of Zangetsu and these two separate beings make up apart Ichigo's Reiryoku. Still, for now this will NOT be added. Minato 20:12, November 21, 2009 (UTC)

2nd hollow form...a Resurrección?
Considering that one of the other shinigami/hollow hybrids tosen, is capable of Resurrección, perhaps that is what ichigo's current hollow form is is really a Resurrección with the power of a vasso lorde.--CloudHiro 20:20, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * If you have to use the word perhaps, then you are speculating. And speculation is not allowed on the articles. Only facts are. -- Yyp  (Talk)  20:22, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Until it is stated to be it is nothing more then speculation. I'm marking this discussion closed as there is no arguing this. Minato  (Talk)  20:25, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Villian or Anti-Villain?
I've been thinking, should Hollow Ichigo really be classified as a villain? While he certainly has no morals or good intentions, he's never actually shown signs of dark intentions either. In addition, while it was only for his own self-gain, he has repeatedly help Ichigo in the past. Personally, I think he should be classified as anti-villain because while he is certainly looking for his own interests and wants to get control of Ichigo's body, he never made any dark suggestions of what he wants to do then like cause huge destruction, just get freedom for himself. Steveo920 17:20


 * Firstly the term u r thinking of is Anti-Hero. Second, I am not really sure about this. While we can only speculate as to his desires to become King, as to after that, well. We saw while Ichigo was training with the Vizards he took over Ichigos body and the Vizards had to isolate and fight him. In this case he showed nothing but violence and aggression. Really he has shown nothing but these tendencies, even to Muramasa whom was actually trying to free him. Hollow Ichigo only works for his own gain, which is a Villainous trait and he only helps Ichigo when Ichigos life is in danger. But even then he doesn't always help Ichigo. Like when Ichigo recently fought Yammy, the mask did not form and Ichigo could have been badly wounded had Kenpachi and Byakuya not shown up. So I think it is correct to label him a Villain, but thats my opinion.


 * Srry, forgot to sign my post. Minato  (Talk)  23:35, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Just wanted to add that Hollow Ichigo, who is clearly an antagonist, cannot be labelled an anti-hero because anti-heros are protagonists. Tinni  (Talk)  10:16, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I had never heard the term before, so I looked it up and it is defined as such: "an anti-villain is an antagonist who isn't purely evil nor entirely unsympathetic -- a character who doesn't seem to deserve being cast as the villain, perhaps cast arbitrarily as the villain because they are not the focus of the story but merely present a foil to the central figure", though I could not find it in a proper dictionary. -- Yyp  (Talk)  11:07, January 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * You actually found the term. I went looking for it and couldn't find it. Mind you, I didn't look too hard. Still, hollow Ichigo doesn't qualify as an anti-villain under that definition. As Minato pointed out, he has most definitely shown a number of villainous traits. Starrk would be a person who is clearly an anti-villain, although I don't think he is labelled as a villain in his article - merely an antagonist. Antagonists are not always villains. They can be downright heroic provided that the protagonist is an anti-hero. But I am going off-topic. Short answer to this discussion is, Hollow Ichigo does qualify as a villain in my opinion. Tinni   (Talk)  11:22, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

when you look at the facts hollow-ichigo really hasnt done anything vilanous. never targeted any of ichigo's friends, never truely hindered ichigo, just tried to get in and help ichigo in fights, which only really hinders ichigo because he fights to supress him out of pride of fighting under his own power and fear of how viciously he fights. and its aparent in each of ichigo's hollow transformations that nether he or hollow ichigo are in control, usualy just combating in the mind while the body fights on its own out of pure instict. whatever it seened as a agressor, it attacked. nothing more, oveous that no one was really in control. All hollow ichigo has really done is fight the enemies of ichigo that he himself didnt have the experience or skill himself to fight yet. so all he's done is attempt to come to ichigo's aid and take over in battle. a bit viciously, but still can be considered aid. I got a theory of what hollow ichigo really is, because he always stated he doesnt know what he is, which he should if he was really a hollow with all the hollows they fight. What hollow ichigo must be is all of ichigo's own supressed emotions and feelings that took on a life of its own, finaly getting its own sepirate identity through access of the powers of partial hollowification. --CloudHiro 13:26, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, most of the things you listed as Hollow Ichigo having not done, he actually has done.

never targeted any of ichigo's friends - stabbed Ishida

never truely hindered ichigo - caused Ichigo's power to plummet during his first fight with Yammy and caused temporary paralysis, as a result both Orihime and Ichigo go hurt badly. 

In addition, Shinji himself has stated that should Hollow Ichigo take over - he will destroy everything Ichigo cares about. So yes, there is no argument here. Hollow Ichigo is a villain and the rest of your statement is speculation, as you yourself have stated.. Tinni  (Talk)  14:02, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

@CloudHiro. Huh I guess u r right. Oh wait. There was that time with the Vizards when he mateiralized and almost choked Hiyori to death. Or the time when training with the Vizards and they had to isolate him and fight him while he used Bankai to slice them up(Lisa almost caught the worst of that fight). Or how about the time Hollow Ichigo materialized to fight Ulquiorra and cut off Uryus hand srry, he only stabbed Uryu. Ahh, good times. Blind aggression, self-gain, needless violence, these r ALL villainous traits. When he does something that is good and it doesn't help his self-preservation then we can change his label. Until then, no. Minato  (Talk)  14:04, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

My bad. I forgot that Ulquiorra was the one who cut-off Uryus hand. I corrected my sentence. Minato (Talk)  14:08, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

first, it only cause ichigo to plumet because he suddenly had to fight his control. hollow ichigo wanted to fight them and ichigo wouldnt let them. second, shinji was talking about him loseing control of his hollow power, which would cause him to fight mindlessly in hollow form. and As I said, hollow ichigo is his supressed feeling, and he never liked Hiyori to begin with. and when he was isolated, that wasnt hollow-ichigo fighting, that was his body fighting on its own while hollow ichigo and ichigo fought in his mind, nether in control of the body, just blind hollow form instincts lashing out. its never been confirmed that hollow ichigo was actualy in control of ichigo's new form, it looked to me more like blind agression, attacking anything that seemed like it was acting agressive to him or orihime. oveously not being controled at all, but acting out of blind instinct.--CloudHiro 17:20, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

Cloud makes a good point. Ichigo's second Hollow Form seemed to be driven by his own instinct to protect Orihime, rather than the berserker behavior that his first form displayed. It might be accurate to say that Hollow Ichigo's influence had little or nothing to do with the transformation, which could explain this difference. No room for speculation though. As far as Hollow Ichigo himself goes, he is clearly a villain in this series. Though he is a source of Ichigo's power, he has never given it willingly - Ichigo has had to fight him for control of his body. His intent to take over Ichigo's body is clearly against the best interests of the protagonists as a whole, as seen by Ichigo's berserk Hollow form. Mohrpheus 17:39, January 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, we have the answer here. Hollow Ichigo is a Villain. While it is debatable(I don't think it is)as to who is in control of Ichigo while he fights, Hollow Ichigo has shown nothing but aggression, violence, and brutality(once even to someone who was helping him). Any talk about what he is belongs in the Forums or Blogs and any debate as to who is control also belongs there. This discussion is closed and if anyone has any disagreements I'll reiterate myself. When he does something that is good and it doesn't help his self-preservation then we can change his label. Until then, no. Minato  (Talk)  21:05, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

New pic
Does anyone think it's necessary that his profile pic should be updated?-- SalmanH  (Talk)  14:14, December 21, 2009 (UTC)

I personally like this pic, but if anyone has a newer and better one they can post it here. Minato (Talk)  21:05, January 7, 2010 (UTC)