Talk:Isshin Kurosaki/Archive 2

Power
Reopening the floor on something. In the explanation of Isshin's abilities, it says that he sent Aizen through those buildings using the physical strength of flicking his finger alone. This doesn't make any sense, which is why a lot of people assume it was Kido. Looking through the archives, I know that this was ruled to be "speculation." However, attributing it to physical strength is just as speculative. My proposal: Since it's probably mentioned elsewhere in the article, why not just remove it from the explanation of Isshin's abilities entirely, until the anime finally clarifies what happened?Neo Bahamut (talk) 08:57, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

There is no reason to reopen this topic either its one or the other, no one can prove its Kido remotely hence why its more than speculative to state that. Its an explanation of skill and ability hence why its featured in the powers and abilities section where it has every right to remain. This point is not based on personal preference but what is known and or shown. Unless there is evidence to support another view it is to viewed a simple combat moved just as any other melee feat would be. --Salubri (Talk)  12:40, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Can it be proven as melee? Why are Aizen's barriers in the Kido section? They aren't stated as being Kido. You can't prove it. So, why are they there? Because they're obviously Kido! It is obvious from the artwork, completely independent of ever being stated, that those techniques are Kido. If that is an acceptable standard of proof, then people have given evidencee before. Maybe it's not personal preference, but it's unwarranted preference. It's holding one side of a debate to a standard of proof while assuming the other side as the default. The fact is, if that stays in there, & it's wrong, it is misinformation, so it really doesn't have a right to be there. No information is better than incorrect information. Really, if one wants to avoid unproven assumptions, one has no logical recourse but to tell it like it is: It is an attack of an unknown type. That is what is known. That is what is shown.Neo Bahamut (talk) 13:11, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

The very fact that you would place barriers in this is a point enough to not reopen this conversation. Your obviously bringing your personal view into the conversation rather then the realities of the series. Barriers are kido that goes without saying whatever way you wanna twist it, thats a reality of the series material. This is a nonissue that will not change as he is clearly engaged in physical combat. All one has to do is look at the chapter to see that hence why its referenced so therefore theres your answer. We arent getting into an argument about this and unless you have actual source material that states that the information shouldn't be there or that it should be placed elsewhere then the conversation on this is done. Read the policies of the sight and learn that we only go by what is shown and stated, you dont get to make points about the information because you dont agree with them personally if there is an issue that is clearly shown in the material. If you have issue with it and a lack of anything other then your own opinion about how things should be done then talk about it in the forum because officially this issue is closed. Salubri (Talk)  13:59, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Flash Steps abillities
Why is Isshin stated only as a Flash Step Expert and not a Master? The fact that he was able keep up with Aizen during thier fight should that they are at least on the same level. Ichigo was completly outmaneuvered by Aizen's normal speed even with his Bankai-Hollow mask speed increase while Isshin was going toe-to-toe with Aizen. Any thoughts? Darksusanoo (talk) 23:31, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Why would you be under the impression they were fighting using flash steps. If that was the case we wouldn't have seen the fight. The movements where just as general as any fight. Flash Steps weren't really a factor in that fight as most fights dont use constant flash steps, there are a few here and there unless your Soifon and Yoruichi. Also In the fight with Ichigo, ichigo wasn't using flash steps at that high of a level as some people seem to think he knows only the basic flash step movements, he using hyper speed combat which is not something the equals to the same thing as flash steps. --Salubri (Talk)  00:27, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Loss of Shinigami powers
From what i have read in issue 420 about Ichigos final getsuga tenshou could explain Ishins loss of shinigami powers prior to the events of the story. As Ichigo appears to have a similar zanpakutou to his father would suggest that Isshin could have also had access to a final getsuga tenshou which resulted in the loss of his powers. This is just a theory to try and explain some of Isshins backstory however so its not canon but i think it should be considered until it is explained in the manga. Yojimbo and diagoro (talk) 22:33, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

NO! We do not speculate on articles. We will not place that on the article until such a time as that is said to be true--God (Pray)  22:37, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

Isshins shikai
ok we saw him uses his getsuga tenshou on aizen so my question is why does his zanpakutou say its form is unknown because he couldnt have used it in sealed state so i think it should be changed-FLAMESWORD300

Yeah, we saw him use Getsuga but we did not see what it looked like. The picture was not clear at all as to what it looked like.--God (Pray)  01:34, September 28, 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear, we aren't changing it just because of what you think. Secondly not all zanpakuto change form in shikai. --Salubri (Talk)  02:06, September 28, 2010 (UTC)

Replace the manga picture?
What do you think? Can I use this one since it is from the anime, and is in color? Ltjuno (talk) 21:06, November 9, 2010 (UTC)

Same thing for the one on Ichigo's page too. Ltjuno (talk) 21:06, November 9, 2010 (UTC)

Isshin Finger Flick
I have noticed that people are still arguing about the nature of the finger flick, so I thought that maybe a gif will help highlight the technique better and give people context and support our argument that the finger flick is a physical attack (air pressure manipulation as far as I can tell). Anyway, here is the gif, use it if you guys like! Tinni  (Talk)  11:44, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Looks good, it is obviously physical. The lines int he air that people claim to be kidō are just showing force and air movements.--God (Pray)  16:40, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

Which is why the conversation wont be opened again, there is no point. The same amount of air force seen in this gif is in the physical attacks Yamamoto uses against Wonderweiss. There just isn't any bases to say its Kido. --Salubri (Talk)  17:02, November 14, 2010 (UTC)

I think it was brought up because the anime finally cleared away all the confusion on the finger flick. Because up until then no one simply finger flicked an opponent through a building. I've seen plenty of people acuse it of kidou and that picture finally gives the definitive proof that it was physical strength alone. That and it is kinda hard to compare a finger flick with Yamamoto's punches. Darthwin (talk) 22:32, December 16, 2010 (UTC)

Bankai
I know it hasn't been revealed yet. But can we at least reasonably speculate on its abilities? We know for a fact that he knows how to use Final Getsuga Tensho since he told Ichigo about it in the first place. And we can also probably assume that it has an enhanced Getsuga Tensho since his shikai has the same ability as Ichigo's.--Black kille (talk) 06:13, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

We do not speculate on articles, ever. Please read our Bleach Wiki:Speculation Policy--<font color="#660066" face="Verdana">God <font color="#660066" face="Verdana">(Pray)  06:27, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

In that case allow me to ask a different question. Would it be speculative to say that Isshin's Bankai's abilities include enhanced Getsuga Tensho and Final Getsuga Tensho? (especially the latter)--Black kille (talk) 08:40, December 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Umm... I am not sure where this is going. His Zanpakuto ability is Getsuga, so it is reasonable to assume that Isshin's Zanpakuto is capable of performing ALL forms of Getsuga Tenso but we cannot add them to his article until he uses them. Because until he uses them, we can only speculate that he can use them. We don't know for certain. Tinni   (Talk)  08:49, December 23, 2010 (UTC)

Saying anything on Isshin's Bankai is speculation. I am closing this discussion because of that.

Possible Trivia
Someone recently edited this page saying you could see the squad 11 division symbol on Isshin's haori in the newest episode, but it was removed. I watched the episode, waiting for the scene, and found it like he said. This probably shouldn't be in the actual article, but it sounds like it could be a good trivia point.CJett92 (talk) 21:30, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

I am iffy about it. We don't want people assuming that Isshin was the captain of squad 11. If it is made very clear that it was a non canon filler episode I think it would be all right.--<font color="#660066" face="Verdana">God <font color="#660066" face="Verdana">(Pray)  21:49, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

Haven't seen the episode yet, but judging by that picture, it is not the 11th Division's emblem, at least not done properly. For a start I think the division number (if that is what it is) is at an angle compared to the Gotei 13 emblem it is contained in, which it should not be. Also, the single horizontal stroke in the 11 kanji should be at the bottom of the Gotei 13 emblem (closest to the pattern at the base of the haori) but here it is at the top and is diagonal, not horizontal. I don't know if there is a proper 11th Div symbol shown elsewhere in the episode, but based on that picture alone, it is either saying something else (with similar kanji) or is a botch version of the emblem. 22:01, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, I will put it in the translation corner and see if Adam can figure out if it is just botched if it means somethign different.--<font color="#660066" face="Verdana">God <font color="#660066" face="Verdana">(Pray)  22:04, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

Cazcappy (the guy who originally edited the page) told me about another seen where it's visible that I completely missed before. It's on the left, and it's now clear that it's not a division symbol. It appears to just be an X, most likely due to us not knowing Isshin's past yet, but I don't know if it's an a Kanji or not. CJett92 (talk) 22:59, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

i was looking at some kanji after i saw issins haori and i found it 父it means 'Father" Hlp922 (talk) 23:27, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Hlp922! Mystery solved, Isshin's squad has not been divulged. Nothing to discuss further. Tinni  (Talk)  23:37, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

Bankai 2
How do we know he has Bankai? Was it ever confirmed? --<font style="background: black" face="Courier" color="white"> The Goblin  <font style="background: white" face="Courier" color="black"> Talk  22:14, September 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * The stance of this wiki is that all captain level fighters are listed as having bankai until proven otherwise.--

Isshin's Durability?
Shouldn't it be mentioned that he quickly recovered after and regained consciousness after battling chrylsalis Aizen?

Previous Occupation Change
Would it make any sense to create a "Previous Occupation" section for Isshin at the top of the page and write something along the lines of "Captain of the 13 Court Guard Squads" or "Captain of an unspecified Squad," or should this kind of change wait until it is mentioned what squad he was a part of (when and/or if that is ever mentioned)?Schiffy (talk) 10:45, April 3, 2012 (UTC)Schiffy


 * I think that is best left until it is actually revealed. 11:49, April 3, 2012 (UTC)

Getsuga Tenshō
Getsuga Tenshō is listed as a part of Engetsu's shikai ability, although we have yet to see the released form of Engetsu or him using it in that form it should moved to above his shikai like Rōjūrō's Arpeggio technique. And also because it's just him using gathered spiritual energy and releasing it as a slash rather than Ichigo or Kugo's version appears as crescent moon rather than a straight slash of energy. --Jigsaw Billy (talk) 18:03, June 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * This has already been discussed. The Getsuga Tensho is a Shikai technique. There is no evidence to state that the technique can be used outside of Shikai. People assume he did not release while using it because his sword did not look different but we have seen several swords that do not look different in shikai than they did unreleased.--

What is Isshin's Rank
What is Isshin's Rank. I personally think he is a captian. This is because attached to his shinigami Robes is a captians Robe. Also because in his battle with Grand Fisher, Isshin mentions that Grand Fisher shouldn't judge his power based on the size of his zanpakuto. He says that when a shinigami reaches the rank of captian they can control to size of they're zanpakuto, otherwise they would all b swinging around swords the size of skyscrappers.

--EngetsugaTensho (talk) 19:02, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Isshin states he is Captain class, not a captain. There is a difference. Isshin's history is completely unknown and until such a time as his history is revealed, we will not be speculating.--

Ok but that is a very good point --EngetsugaTensho (talk) 19:13, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Isshin is a Captain, as stated in Chapter 528, Division is unknown at this point. Sicarius001 (talk) 11:28, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Head of the Shiba Clan?
Did i read wrong, or wasn't he head of a branch family of the Shiba House, not the main family??? Gojita (talk) 11:44, March 6, 2013 (UTC)Gojita

Your are 100% correct there is not error in translation Kubo is pulling a Naruto and having the main protagonist Ichigo take his mothers last name.


 * It apparently stating that he is of a branch of the Shiba family and is likely the head of that branch of the family. In Japanese nobility it basically works that the sons of a noble house are given lesser titles and houses to head as the main assets go to the first born male. This would insinuate that Isshin is a younger son if he is the head of branch family. This would also mean that his older brother is head of the main family.--


 * @Kubo is pulling a Naruto: Do also note that it's not unknown in real life Japan for a man to take his wife's family name, especially if her family is higher on the social ladder than his or he's been cast out of his family. Depending on the exact circumstances of Isshin's disappearance (which obviously will be touched upon in the next few chapters, and probably will involve Aizen, since he's been shown in the newest chapter), it may turn out that he has a good reason for taking Masaki's family name upon marrying her. MarqFJA (talk) 01:51, March 8, 2013 (UTC)

for me is simple because as as hinigami if he don't take teh kurosaki name he don't exixt in the japan administrative system so he took his wife name to hide the fact he is a shinigami in a gigai --Nitram86 (talk) 13:57, April 19, 2013 (UTC)

Education
Isshin's education section is listed as "N/A". But consider this: Kenpachi Zaraki is the only Shinigami captain who didn't study at the Shinnō Academy and one cannot legally practice medicine without a license. Can someone please change the section to read "Shinnō Academy and Doctorate"? Steveo920, March 13, 2013, 17:44

Steve-o, in all likelihood, you are correct, but we like to wait until its officially confirmed.-- 21:48, March 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * To point out there are plenty of people with the same issue, there are those we really cant confirm as being students either.--

Family
Should we update the family section to include Kaien, Kukaku and Ganju Shiba as family? --Mseevers (talk) 14:00, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

No, we are not overloading his family section in the infobox with secondary family members.--

Shikai
The release command is "burn", but it's hard to tell from a black and white image if that energy is really fire. Will-O-Wisp (talk)


 * Thats true. We will need to see from later chapters if this what it does is able to be determined until then we will simply place the release command. Thanks for the look out.--

Could someone also please add that the same energy also flows from the tassel attached to the sword's hilt? Blackstar1 (talk) 15:49, March 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and put it in. The description as is was a little short anyway. Mohrpheus   (Talk)  16:22, March 29, 2013 (UTC)

It is fire after all. Definitely looks like it in Chapter 532. Also, this blood-sucking-fire-spitting ability. Is it the power of Isshin's shikai or a Kido of some sort? Will-O-Wisp (talk)
 * Why isn't that ability described in his Shikai? Darksusanoo (talk) 07:42, April 19, 2013 (UTC)

Bankai
And finally, we have a bit of information about Isshin's bankai! According to Aizen, it is "quite a burden on his body." Apparently, he can't use it when he's wounded too badly. It's something. Will-O-Wisp (talk)

It is enough to add as a note to his Bankai. We have done similar with Kisuke and Shunsui's. Mohrpheus   (Talk)  12:21, April 3, 2013 (UTC)

History
Is it just me or are you stating the same event twice in his history concerning the incomplete Arrancar and Masaki first encounter with Isshin?-User: Taoisac
 * We don't know if White is the Arrancar Isshin is referring to - while in all likelihood it is, it has not been stated as such, so we won't remove it until it is.--Xilinoc (talk) 03:31, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

History
"At the Urahara Shop, Urahara explains Hollowfication to him and Ryuken. He then explains the solution, but as he does, Isshin immediately agrees to sacrificing his human powers to save Masaki. He then enters Masaki's inner world to confront the Hollow. [16]"

The section where it says "sacrificing his human powers" should be "sacrificing his shinigami powers"


 * This has been corrected now. Thanks for bringing the error to our attention. 11:14, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

Fire Technique
Looking at the Fire Technique ability added to Engetsu I was wondering if the wording can be changed since its currently locked. While we don't know its name, here is a proposed sample of what the copy could say:

"Unnamed Fire Technique: Engetsu appears to have the ability to use Isshin's own blood to enhance its attack power. After sustaining a deep wound on his back, Isshin took his own blood in his hand, slurped it into his mouth and spit it on the blade, activating a thick wave of fire-like spiritual energy to erupt from it and take out his opponent. This attack was strong enough to destroy one of White's horns." (insert reference tags)

Take it or leave it, but I wanted to offer the suggestion either way. --Northstar1012 (talk) 19:13, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Here's the thing. While we want to add that to his page, 1. we don't know if it's even fire-based (the same goes for Isshin's Zanpakutō in general), and 2. there's the possibility it is actually some sort of Kidō. Until we get that information, I don't think we can add that in.--Xilinoc (talk) 22:04, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I was trying to avoid saying it was actual fire and hoped fire-like would have resolved that issue. Also, if there's a possibility that it could be some kind of Kidō, why would it be listed under the Zan's abilities? Since its there, I thought that pretty much means its a Zan ability and not a Kidō. Though I could be wrong. --Northstar1012 (talk) 20:39, April 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's just it. We're not sure if it's Kidō or a Zanpakutō ability, so we're not adding it until we know. Hope that helps.--Xilinoc (talk) 22:02, April 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Something was added to sure up the section and to acknowledge the issue. If at a later date its determined to be different it will be changed accordingly as this is the best option available to us at the time.--

page block
Hey, I just noticed that in the anime, the inside of isshins captain haori is white, while since he was the captain of the 10th diversion, it should be dark green. Can some admin adit that into his trivia?
 * Isshin hasn't been shown as a Captain in the Anime at all and hasn't been proven that the cloth over his arm is his original haori!!
 * Also at that time it was never clear what division he was in and it was specifically done that way.--

in chapter 529 of the manga, isshin was confirmed to be the 10th division captain with rangiku as his lit. and toshiro as his 3rd sit. in chapter 535, isshin gives up his shinigami powers to save masaki, while he was still the 10th division captain, so unless isshin stole a new haori from another captain, which is unlikely, its his original haori. as for salubri: thats exactly why i think it should be written as a trivia. i think its notable enough to make it into the trivia. as the trivia exists to mention facts which arent always part of the main plot, i think this fact should be in it. God of nothing (talk) 16:58, May 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Kubo doesnt do the anime. Having said that there would have to be an assumption that the studio of the anime previously knew what we currently know. Its more likely they didnt hence the reason for the why the haori looks or is obscured to recognition. We didnt know that he was officially a captain or of what division until these recent chapters. We were meant to acknowledge from the haori that he was a captain at some point, but we werent supposed to know until now what division. Secondly these current chapters are a flashback of 20 years ago. We are finding out something currently that we didnt know from something thats already taken place in the story. We know now but his initial appearance up until chapter 529 we werent aware of it. Its not trivia its just circumstances of what happened. It wouldnt be trivia it would be pointing out foreshadowing. If we put every instance of something like this there would be a wall of information in the trivia section. --

ok im convinced God of nothing (talk) 15:25, May 3, 2013 (UTC)

Spelling Errors
Spelling errors -

If you're going to lock this (and other) pages on this wikia, could you please ensure that once you have completed a change you check for spelling errors. On this page alone there is numerous typographical and grammatical errors making it really frustrating to try and read. Thanks
 * If you could point these out, that'd be great.--Xilinoc (talk) 02:19, May 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah moaning about people being proof reading their own work, which is difficult, isn't helpful unless you plan on being productive!!
 * Hi. Here are some errors in the order they appear on the page. Will slowly update with more as I have time to properly scan the entire page.
 * - Spelling errors
 * - "and had slight shorter hair." - Should be "slightly"
 * - "two more individuals have died" - "had died"
 * - "slides passed Yuzu" - "slides past Yuzu"
 * - "Recallnig" - "Recalling"
 * - "He reveal" - "He reveals"


 * - Semantic errors
 * - "Forced on the defensive as White continues to attack" - There has been no mention of who "White" is, only that Isshin was fighting a "creature"
 * - "Urahara explains Hollowfication to him and Ryuken." - New paragraph and no mention of who is present at the shop, "him" is not applicable for use here. Should be replaced with "Isshin and Ryuken"
 * - "Telling him to stop, Yuzu says he" - "Yuzu tells her father to stop and says that he"
 * - "Telling him to stop because he can hear him" - "Ichigo tells him to stop because he can hear him"
 * - "Ichigo, refusing, says it is tiring and he should go himself" - "Ichigo refuses, he says it is too tiring and that he should go himself"
 * - "Grabbing Ichigo, Isshin, asking if his little sisters are not precious to him, decides they will split up search for them" - "Isshin grabs Ichigo and asks whether his little sisters are precious to him or not. It is decided by Isshin that himself and Ichigo will split up and search for them."
 * - "Telling Ichigo to search in one direction, he says he will stay there, prompting Ichigo to kick him" - "Ichigo is told to go and search in one direction whilst Isshin decides to stay where he is and wait, this prompts Ichigo to kick him in the jaw."
 * The errors have been fixed. Thanks for pointing them out.--Xilinoc (talk) 04:41, May 8, 2013 (UTC)

Getsuga Tensho
Engetsu is apparently a unique zanpakuto, since some of its powers (namely, Getsuga Tensho) can be used when it's not released even to shikai. Should this be noted? Will-O-Wisp (talk)

Not exactly. As we've seen in the flashback, his Zanpakutō doesn't change very much. All that happens is it gets covered in fiery reiatsu, and when preforming a Getsuga Tenshō... you can't really tell even that.--Yomiko-chan (talk) 22:54, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Pretty much what Yomiko said; it's hard enough as-is to tell when his Zanpakuto is released or not. And seeing as captain-level characters can do it without a release command, we can't exactly assume anything. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  23:27, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Missing stuff
Ok, in order to make a point...as i'm reading Isshin's page i noticed some things missing/wrong in his abilities section...first off he is stated as having enhanced durability and the only mentions to it is him being smacked around by his teenage son (granted a semi-expert fighter) and kid daughter, mostly for comic relief. Now in these latest chapters we've seen Isshin fighting against a high-level Hollow hybrid having already suffered a serious wound from Aizen prior, and managing to hold his own, but that isn't mentioned. Plus what he has displayed is endurance, not durability. One relates to the ability to withstand damage and still fight, the other to emerge unharmed for attacks that should cause damage.

Second...Isshin is a trained doctor by both the Soul Society and he also had addtional training by Urahara and he even managed to open and run a medical clinic for several years, soo he is versed in medical procedures and the basis for it came from his time as a Shinigami, soo he should be listed as a healer, same as other Shinigami, such as Unohana and Hanataro.

Well thank you for reading, and opinions to these matters are welcomed. Darksusanoo (talk) 21:04, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Isshin hasn't actually become weaker.
ogue in chapter 188 which is given as this argument's source actually says:

Urahara: "Well, if you became weaker and blamed me for it, it would be problematic..." Isshin: "Oh really? Don't worry. If I became weak, I wouldn't blame you. I would just accept it".

As you can see, it's all said in conditional mode. Nowhere does Isshin say that he's actually become weaker. The line that the article contains hasn't been put to perspective after the "Everything but the rain" chapters. Xfing (talk) 20:20, March 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * At no point are you making it clear what exactly in the article your referring to, thus how can it be addressed?--

Engetsu
I'm not quite sure why we decided Engetsu wasn't a fire type? Kubo shaded the sword the way he does fire and whatnot, plus the release command is Burn, after all. Can someone explain, because I'm just assuming that there is something that I am missing... SilverRain (talk) 04:41, January 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * Because there's nothing indicating that it isn't just flame-shaped Reishi. Zangetsu is based on Engetsu due to Isshin being Ichigo's father, that much is certain due to their shared usage of Getsuga Tenshō, and Zangetsu is a melee-type with an energy attack or two. Neither usage of Isshin's GT has made the attack look flame-like - it's retained its energy beam appearance, and a fire-type Zanpakutō wouldn't be able to fire off beams of power like that. Hope that helps/--Xilinoc (talk) 12:05, January 26, 2015 (UTC)