Forum:Better Villains (Thread Closed)

Okay, I have been reading bleach for quite a few years now, and this is just annoying the daylights out of me. Why in the heck are the good guys made so uber powerful that the antagonists can't even kill one!? I mean, come on. Whoo, they're captains. So what? A real baddy would have killed off at least four of those captains if they were worth all this preparation. The Soul Society kept making a giant deal out of the Espada and look what's happened, five are already dead, one is incapacitated, the fatty 10th now is the cero espada, which is a load of crap, and the top three aren't living up to their hype. Seriously, why is it just a slaughter fest full of almighty espada being made into punching bags? Someone please explain.--Moe1216 19:51, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

My gripe is we know practically nothing about the big guns; For the main villian, we hardly ever see Aizen. I'd like to know his history, and how he reacts to setbacks; it'd just add more depth to him (coz he is getting a bit stagnant now imo). And what about Gin; is he more powerful than he appears? Why does he really follow Aizen? Plus, why are those 2 just stood there when they could be joining in the fight? At least Tosen is getting stuck in. TomServo101 20:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

You are singing to the choir Tomservo101. Aizen keeps acting all dang high and mighty, but he hasn't done anything to prove that he is all that powerful. Why is he doing these things? We haven't been given a reason why he is doing this or why Gin is with him. All we know is he wants to rule Soul Society. He needs more character depth and to get off his high horse and fight like Tosen.--Moe1216 21:12, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I would concur. Just earlier today, I was rereading the fight between Ulquiorra and Hollow/Ichigo aqnd I still feel complete disbelief that despite the fact that he should have died multiple times, Ulquiorra is the "loser" of the battle, while Ichigo is completely unscathed. I guess Tite has issues with offing the good guys, but it's complete bull the stuff they can survive, while the enemies die from much lesser wounds. (Another example, Rangiku survives having half of her chest ripped out, while Nirrge dies from being hit by a rock in the head.) Twocents 21:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Well id say that not all storylines are built around characters dying. Ive seen plenty a anime where maybe one support character dies and that doesn't change the story much and then majority of the deaths either take place in the past which u see through flashbacks or there are a large amount of unimportant characters to the storyline that end up dead despite the fact that they maybe entirely innocent. I personally dont understand the fascination with everyone dying off just because they are good. I mean i like some of the protagonists but i also realize they are to serve a role and when the role is up they will die and the story will go on without them cause they are not the point of the storyline. Now ive said previously that if you can recall for at least 2 arcs the storyline was primarily about Ichigo against the shinigami trying to get back rukia. So at one point they were the protagonists. The difference is after the fact they were allies. Also you have to take into account the captains are integral part of the storylines. Everything in the storylines in one way or another deal with soul society. The captains are the only line of defense that soul society has without them there is no story to be had because ichigo cant do everything, hes not as powerful as he is portrayed at times, he doesnt have all the knowledge or information (all that you can probably dont need for the main character/s to push the story in a couple of different anime/manga but not in bleach, sorry). Also his friends are basically useless verse the current level of bad guy. So who are you left with. I would stop pushing for death in storyline, especially being that 99% of the characters are technically dead (souls). Are there defeats sure, should there be more probably, i mean its through defeat that you learn to better if you survive. I think the captains cant maintain peak efficiency and power by just drifting around at the top sometimes you got to get your hands dirty. The general i think has had his share of wins and defeats so im not concerned, as with age comes wisdom. But some other characters need to be put to the test. Besides strong hollows these arrancar are perfect to place themselves against. If the question is how the all powerful espada and arrancar have been losing. I'd say its simple plain arrogance, they think themselves far to superior and underestimate their opponents. The basic point is if the captains fall then what happens to soul society and if soul society falls then thats the end of the world. It all goes back to the concept of why there are no more quincy. They disrupted the balance. At the end of the day the arrancar are beings that much like the quicny shouldnt exist. Also notice not to much preparation seems to have gone into the arrancar or espada you just mix hollow with shinigami and there you got it. They barely have much in the way of backstories and most arent redeemable (sans nel and her faccion). I mean defeats are taking place. Soifon her entire arm, i dont know how much worse that can get you never saw it coming and its soifon after all. The lieutenants got owned in the end, with a few exceptions. If you notice the question of captain vs espada has largely came and gone. The espada are now primarily against the vizard which are the exact opposite of the arrancar. So it makes sense if the top 3 get taken out now, but i do think the gang up 2-3 on one is completely unnecessary. Seeing as the captains went one on one with them. So in all fairness i dont agree with that. But how long before the arrancar have we been with the current characters/captains. They are integral characters. Though i think Orihime as weak as she is can be killed off now that makes more sense its when the weak and innocent get killed that the story moves if thats what your looking for. If you can recall a good amount of people in soul society including ichgio and friends have a good connection with her. so her being gone for good would really take it to another level. But other then that personally defeats are good enough. Cause at the end of the day the arrancar or espada will be replaced with a even more powerful enemy. But i do agree tomservo. Im in all honesty not feeling aizen any longer hes boring now and his prior knowledge is not beliavable to me at this point not that it ever was. but gin is still interesting and im glad tosen is finally getting whats coming to him. Salubri 21:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the support people! It's just that most people's gripes seem to be the unbalanced casualties, I dislike the fact that Aizen seemingly doesn't have a personality; at least Gin's a smartmouth...

Back to the point, yes we do seem to have an issue with poor characterisation of the Arrancar. I can understand he has deadlines to meet, but they may as well be bog-standard Hollows for all the individuality should be showing and don't. I also want to see what their aspect of death means to Starrk and Harribel, as I don't think they've elaborated yet.

I too want to see some captains (or even lieutenants) get the heave-ho. They all seem a little 'come-what-may' about their allies/friends, so what'll be their reaction when one of their own gets it? We saw a little of that with Yama-jii, but I'd like to see genuine grief, and hopefully a captain or two really cutting loose. TomServo101 22:02, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

"I personally dont understand the fascination with everyone dying off just because they are good." -- Salubri

I don't think that's it at all. Rather it seems people are growing weary with a story that never seems to seriously endanger its protagonists, they are immune to any real consequences and therefore become boring or even unbelievable. Over the lifespan of Bleach Tito has created a vast cast of good guy characters...but I can't remember ANY significant deaths among their ranks. They ALWAYS bounce back no matter how severe a beating they take or they have unbelievable luck and survive impossible circumstances.

Now this is high powered fantasy so you are going to have some of that. But a storyline that is never willing to change or shake things up isn't any better than killing off good characters willy nilly. It just stagnates as each new 'life & death' crisis simply becomes wash, rinse, repeat. Take Hitsuguya and Momo, for example. As interesting as Hitsuguya's relationship with Momo is its not really anything central to the main characters. Tito could of left Momo dead on the floor of the Chamber and Hitsugaya would still be motivated by guilt and rage to track down and kill Aizen. Nothing essential to Hitsugaya's storyline would of altered but we, the audience, would have a sense of urgency and suspense that Bleach now lacks on some level. Its important for the good guys to lose big sometimes. It makes them INTERESTING.

Note that a carefully considered death among the ranks of the good guys in order to promote a good story isn't the same as wanting characters killed off just because they are good guys. Nor is it saying we need to kill off main characters.

Secondly...yeah...I agree that Aizen needs to be fleshed out a bit more. I was expecting a Aizen background episode over a hundred episodes ago. Tito could lose a fight scene or two and do more with character building. Great Cthulhu 22:33, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. It isn't that I'd like characters to be off'd willy-nilly. I just think it actually ruins the story a bit when the good guys survive anything and everything, when bad guys who are supposed to be on par or even stronger than they are get off'd in unlikely (like Ulquiorra) or relatively lame (like Fura) ways. It makes everything relatively predictable, and what's the point in watching things when it's fairly clear what's going to end up happening? And like Great Cthulhu pointed out, deaths of characters can actually inspire readers to be more interested and engaged in the story rather than simply being able to dismiss injuries as, "Well, it's a Shinigami, so you know they're going to survive it." With 369 chapters proving a refusal to off "good" characters who weren't already dead before the storyline, plot devices that would normally create suspense (such as injuries) fail to do so because we know that nothing too bad is going to happen to any of the good guys. Twocents 23:07, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I have nothing against the gotei 13 or the captains, its just that there are too bloody many and if there are that many characters, it gets hard to have all of them in the lime light, especially if dying doesn't ever really happen. To me, the only reason a captain or two would die is too show that the antagonist means business or to add more plot development. Like Great Cthulhu said, any story that actually has no real danger aimed towards the protagonist just gets boring and I don't care about the captains anymore. I got tired of them the minute Hitsugaya got all tough towards the Espada Tercera after she released, and who was kicking his end without even releasing. Hoenstly, first the Captains get worried then they get all tough at the last minute. --Moe1216 23:06, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree about there being too many support characters running around. I'll give Tito credit...I care about most of the captains and lieutenants. But at the end of the day Bleach is about Ichigo, Rukia, Chad, Uryuu, and Orihime. The rest are just support characters and don't need the same amount of attention or scene immunity (to actual death and dismemberment) that the main characters get. Tito shouldn't be afraid to winnow a couple to provide angst and motivation for the main characters.

Secondly Tito should seriously consider capping Ichigo's power at some point. Ichigo is titanically powerful and you don't need to keep pumping him up with vague ill-defined powers like his super-Hollow form that he used to kill Ulquiorra. Another method to 'Ichigo rushing head-on into impossible odds only to triumph as he pulls yet another superpower out of his hat to win the day' should be found. Right now Ichigo has to leave his friends behind everytime a powerful enemy sneezes. I'll just say that Superman stopped being interesting a long time ago because he was always more powerful than anyone else. Great Cthulhu 23:43, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

It's getting beyond ridiculous! For a 15 year old who just randomly acquired these powers, it's insane how he's has powers that those who have been training for hundreds of years don't have, and on top of that, he's exceptionally skilled at using these newly acquired powers. It's just getting to be almost hysterical his powers, rather than remotely feasible. He was barely able to take out Grimmjow, he couldn't take out Nnoitra, yet he's able to come back from the dead (essentially - what human could survive having a hole that large in their chest) with some ridiculous new power that he's able to use with exceptional skill to completely annihilate Ulquiorra, and on top of that, he can return to his human form, and use exceptionally high speed regeneration to cure wounds and bring back internal organs, when Ulquiorra stated he was the best at regeneration among the Espada, but even he couldn't do that? It's just not inspiring. It seems almost exhausting, as a reader, to think you're going to see or read something unique and new and plausible within the universe where the story's taking place, and instead, you get something like that. Don't get me wrong - I eagerly await each new chapter and episode. It's just getting tiring to get something ridiculously unplausible that sort of ruins the story a bit. Twocents 23:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Tito missed out on a opportunity when he had Ichigo go into "Super Ridiculous Mode!" A large part of the Hueco Mundo arc was Orihime whining about not being able to do anything. Here was her chance! Orihime has powers that defy the laws of the gods? Than have her reject Ichigo's death and bring him back to fight once more. Yay! Orihime gets props and Ichigo has a real reason to survive having his entire chest blown away! Oh well... Great Cthulhu 00:18, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

If there was one character I wouldn't mind having off'd, it'd be Orihime. Her uselessness annoys me. But that's beside the point. I think Bleach does have a lot of pluses - amazing characters, great battle scenes, wonderful character artwork, etc. but I think one area that really lacks is the unpredictability of the plot. It's always the same - the bad guys are always evil and always lose, regardless of how unbelievable that is, and the good guys are always good and surive everything, regardless of how unbelievable that may be. Twocents 00:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

But see thats not a true statement we have seen alot of backstory on the captains and lieutenants more then we have on Ichigo's friends. If one of them died it would make sense thats why i pushed for orihime she has connection to ichigo and some other characters outside of the humans as well as she is pretty useless in a fight. But we know a little about them and they arent a driving force of the story. If the captains are nothing more then support characters why do we have so much info on them why is so much attention paid to them. Also they are dead i dont think really gets that concept. There already down 3 captains and there would be no one to cut to for soul society scenes, and more how much angst and motivation do you expect ichigo to have for captains/lieutenant as he has really no close connection to them, that makes no sense. The fact is nothing added to the death of he gotei 13 members its just more open spots that arent filled and then what. we have some of people apparently pushing for these deaths but no one making any attempts to rectify how it makes the story any better or fix a huge issue in the integrity of a situation that i previously brought up, by taking out captains you take out the possibility of soul societies survival. Im just going by whats established in the storyline. But yea Momo could have died as she is useless to the story at this point and could have pushed Hitsugaya. But in most peoples positions its more of what they want to see because of what other manga/anime have previously done. Like i said someone dying every minute doesn't always push a story. I would prefer something thats gonna push the story over appeasing what readers want cause you cant please everyone and then your not making what you want but what others want. We all know thats not how these things work. See Moe1216 just made my point this is about the same tired complaint against the protagonists that some people have been pushing it has nothing to do with pushing the story. As stated before instead of constantly pushing for some death that wont achieve anything why dont people just enjoy bleach. What im more concerned about is that we are still on the espada and aizen. I agree that ichigo's powers should be capped its crazy cause seeing that there are other vizards we only see his side of things. Also if you have been to the comic book store like i have superman is still as popular as ever, the difference is they write it so he doesn't use his powers for everything, they make it difficult or not so simple to just storming in, they have made him more versatile as of late. If the real issue is predictability of the storyline thats gonna be problem cause soul society has to exist and they need a full compliment of captains to really do that effectively so. This is gonna be a problem with those harping on this cause its intertwined into the foundation of the storyline. Also taking out a captain is a serious thing, if someone was capable of doing so then whats that mean for the storyline.Salubri 00:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

How about this, kill off Omaeda, Momo, Mayuri and Orihime. There you got a weak girl connected to ichigo, Chad, Rukia and ishida and then there is two lieutenants (one with connections to hitsugaya and other lts.) and one really annoying captain who seems less of an ally and team player then all the others.Salubri 00:41, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't disagree about Orihime. Her indecisiveness and annoying habits (I really wish Grimmjow would smack her when she keeps repeating "Kurosaki-kun" for the millionth time) make her one of my least favorite characters. Her dying wouldn't be a hardship for me.

But overall you are right. Bleach has excellent qualities that will keep me watching even if I complain about the predictability of the plot. But that won't stay true forever as long as Tito insists on playing it safe with his characters rather than being daring. Great Cthulhu 00:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)