Talk:Getsuga Tenshō

Page Restoration
Well, as of Chapter 405, the technique is no longer exclusive to Ichigo/Zangetsu, as Isshin used it on Aizen in the end of the chapter. Should we just go ahead and turn the page back into a technique page? Not necessarily the way it used to be (depending on the page's original layout), but something similar to the Cero Oscuras page. Arrancar109 (Talk)  05:40, May 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * We'll have to change all the getsuga tensho redirects anyway as it can now refer to two characters, so a page of its own seems suitable. Though I'd wait until the next chapter is out and we get some sort of explanation (hopefully). Yyp  (Talk) 10:36, May 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I find this a bit to be jumping the gun. For all we know Isshin's zanpakuto can mimic others attacks. We should wait until a later time until we can find out whats going on, otherwise we feed the fire of fan speculation. There is also no precedent for having two zanpakuto with the same ability. Its usually for other techniques (cero, hierro, shunpo or something along those lines), known to be open to one or more person. Salubri (Talk)  13:10, May 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think we should indeed make a disambiguation page or a page describing technique. Five characters used a getsuga so far. -- The Goblin   Talk   22:12, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

What Five characters. Ichigo and Isshin are the only ones. We know its natural to Ichigo, we dont have enough information to acknowledge if its naturally Isshin as well. Hollow Ichigo is a distinctive part of Ichigo (which is still questionable why he even still has a page), we also dont count non-canon reflection and absorptions. Im also not comfortable with the idea that we should list people who can absorb and copy abilities as users. That would require the same for various characters (hollows included). Disambiguation's aren't necessary in this instance either. Who is actually gonna look for an attack based on who uses it. There just isn't enough in variation about the ability or users to require it having its own page. Just because you can make a page doesn't mean one should. A cero, shunpo and Zanpakuto are widely used by many characters to varying degrees and in unique ways. The same cant be said about a getsuga tensho. --Salubri (Talk)  23:48, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

Users
Why isn't Kugo listed? -- The Goblin   Talk   13:24, March 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Because it is not his natural ability. The manga is given that he won it by taking Ichigo's Fullbring. 13:42, March 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Alzanino is right we are not playing the list every single person game. Techniques from zanpakuto are commonly unique to the wielder. We are only going from what is natural not what is stolen or otherwise.--Salubri (Talk)  14:09, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

Kugo used the technique. I don't see why he isn't a 'user', makes no sense. There is even a gif of him using it. Ichigo's ability or not, he gained it and it became his as well. And if all zanjutsu are 1 person only, why have a users section if not for the times it has more than one USER not just original owner. If not add ginjo, at least change it from users to original owner(s)? Skarrj (talk) 09:10, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

I dislike "fighting against the man," but since this discussion is not closed, I'll throw in my opinion. If the ability is on the corresponding characters' page already, then there is little to no reason not to include all of them, original owner or not. As Skarrj pointed out, the inclusion of the Kugo gif is contradictory as it presents a use and appearance of the ability that isn't covered by the article. Additionally, the individual Kido spell articles already have the precedent of noting every single user, even those in video games and filler material. I see little difference in this matter. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  13:33, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Basically this is whats happening. Im not concerned with any of the other pages, these pages were created with a simple concept in mind. To detail the unique abilities of the original owners of the techniques. Not stolen or copied. If you dont like it too bad. The other option is to delete this page altogether, but seeing as Im having no bending to the will of users, this matter is not up for discussion.--

Image Gallery
Rather than have an image subsection on the page, shouldn't we have an Image Gallery, like Shunkō/Image Gallery? I mean, this technique has been used many more times than that, so it seems like it deserves its own gallery.--Xilinoc (talk) 03:31, September 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * Does make sense.--
 * Can't argue with that logic
 * Guess so. 19:08, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm good with it. Arrancar109 (Talk)  19:22, September 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * In the spirit of being a standard yes man, sounds good.

Phrasing
The phrasing of how Ichigo uses Getsuga with Zangetsu's true form implies the smaller blade fires basic Getsuga and the larger one produces black Getsuga. Getsuga Jujishou shows both blades producing standard white/blue reiatsu, so we know this isn't the case. Because of this, I'd like to simply rephrase this statement:
 * "He can also fire a Getsuga Tenshō with his larger sword; this version is completely black, and is powerful enough..."


 * as


 * "He can also fire a black Getsuga Tenshō with his larger sword; this version is powerful enough..."
 * 15:49,3/8/2015 15:49, March 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * Bump...23:02,11/30/2015 23:02, November 30, 2015 (UTC)


 * K.--Xilinoc (talk) 00:32, December 1, 2015 (UTC)

General Update of Page
This touches on some of the stuff above, but there are other things here too. First on the infobox. It does not make the distinction of “natural user” but even if it did, there is no reason that it cannot be changed to allow Kugo to be added as he is a real user of it. The page is incomplete without mentioning it in some capacity. Sal may have started these pages with the intention of them being one way, but like many things in life, they evolved to where they are now and they can continue to evolve and they dont all have to be absolutely homogenous. I see no reason why Kugo cant be listed there too, though I suggest it is best done in a new section to distinguish it from those who naturally have the ability.

This does throw up some other considerations for both this page and how other pages are treated, namely do we have to list the Reigai version of the Shinigami too if they showed it in that filler arc? Id argue no need to do that, its a given that the reigai can use the same innate abilities as the real person. Off the top of my head I cant think of any other example of other characters using someone else's technique that we have a page for, including any Quincy using an actual tech from a stolen Bankai. I stand to be corrected on that though, as I cant rule it out just based on memory. But even if there was, that doesnt change that this page ought to mention Kugo. If there is the need due to any decision taken here affecting another page, this can be copy/pasted to the infox's talk page for posterity once its settled as this is the place where it has most relevance.

Secondly, the page lists variants, which mainly only Ichigo used. I imagine this was a point against adding the additional users previously. I feel that this is not really an issue and can easily be addressed if need be by just making it clearer that its only Ichigo in the descriptions of each variant bar when Zangetsu used it. I think that it would be a good idea to redo the variants section as an illustrated table listing the user(s) to make it clearer while also enhancing the page. I feel the GT being held in the blade should be listed as its own point rather than tacked on to the end of the preceding point. And looking at the Image Gallery, there is the Fullbring one too. 17:57, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Generally I look at wiki pages as a means to inform someone who has little to no knowledge of the series, so Reigai should be inlcuded. The Naruto wiki puts superscript text in parentheses to identify such things as anime/manga/novel only. On the DMC wiki, we do something similar to clarify small details like that. Although, we have a much more complex/detailed infobox setup, and Naruto wiki's is even more complex. I only bring this up because as it stands right now, the formatting would leave source view looking a little messy if it were to use superscripts. The alternative would be to tweak the infobox code itself and add user parameters. TBH, just based on how long these infoboxes have been around, they probably could use some updating.


 * As for the variations and what not, i think each user should have their own section, detailing their own information about Getsuga Tensho(how they obtained it, aesthetics, variations) LegionZero (talk) 22:35, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Listing each user in their own section to show variations actually ends up looking quite good in practice. It was something quite a few of us on the Fanon wiki did to show differences in technique usage between characters. Kenji-Taichō (Talk)  22:57, 8 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Firstly, no problems if we want to list variants of stolen abilities and such but I am not and will inherently and always disagree with listing it as a Fullbring abilitiy. Just because I can make a pizza from scratch using Irish ingredieant, does not make Pizza an Irish dish, it's not, it's Italian and everything else is a variant, adaptation and influenced by it. I fI sing a French song, its not Irish because I can sing it, I am imitating, it is still French.


 * I have spent a massive amount of time since the Manga ended updating the technique pages. Yes I have slowed down in 2020 because well you guys know I am ill (no not covid, chronic) and so getting my strenght back. There are a few techniques that have a lot of iterations and such like Cero and Getsuga, that I have been gathering as much images and animations as I can before moving to those and I was going to propose adapting the page to show that it's a ZanpakutO, Shinigami ability, it can copied in special circumstances. Still not a Fullbring ability.


 * This really isn't the place to be having this discussion but I do think there are new rooms for improvement and manuals of style and such for the wiki. I love this place, but change is good, keeps things fresh while still focusing on the dedicated consistency we have always aimed for here in building the most comprehensive database for Kubo's works out there. In regards to Reigai, my work in doing articles for even just Dolls would demonstrate I have no issues in having these characters shown somewhere because they are characters that did stuff, had their own, contrivated and convoluted and silly goals but they still had them.


 * So yeah, the aim showed always be to improve, adapt and ensure consistency at all times, they don't have to be exclusive of one another.


 * Throwing in my abridged opinions; no I do not truly think Reigai copies deserve an explicit mention for each technique, as it already stands to reason they can do everything the original can. Though I may be biased as I always thought the concept of Reigai is dumb and makes no Yhwach-damned sense. However, I do think Kugo using Getsuga is deserving of a mention. Even if he "just" copied the power from Ichigo, it's not like Ginjo can do everything Ichigo can, and it does seem (according to EU materials, at least) the skill is permanently added to Ginjo's "arsenal" from then on.


 * EDIT: I do like to add that I don't see Getsuga as a Fullbring power either. Ichigo used it in Fullbring probably because it's his signature move, and since Ginjo can use Bankai with his weapon, it stands to reason he has some Shinigami powers to explain that too, if that makes sense.Timjer (talk) 17:29, 9 January 2021 (UTC) Timjer (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I tried to find neutral way of wording it that can allow it to be mentioned without actually getting bogged down in whether its a Fullbring power or not, not sure if it works. I think subsection called "Non-Zanpakuto Variants" without going into any further detail helps? Any suggestions on how to better do it? 20:01, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

Considering Ichigo used Getsuga Tensho with his Fullbring when he had no Shinigami powers, it is most definitely is a Fullbring ability. Further evidence to back this: Kugo also stole Ichigo's Fullbring abilities, not Shinigami powers, to use Getsuga Tensho.

I was thinking for variations or whatever the page can be broken down by characters. In this case, Ichigo, Zangetsu, Kugo, and Isshin. IIRC this is in order of most information tonleast information available. Ichigo's section can be seperated by powers, but that gets kinda muddy since he is such a mix. Order of varients used makes most sense, at least to me.

In regards to Reigei, its obvious to us who have the context of what a reigai is but not all wiki readers will have that context, so i would put it in. LegionZero (talk) 07:14, 10 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Actually, when Ichigo calls out Getsuga in his FB form, Tsukishima marvel at how he's now managed to fuse both Shinigami and FB powers so this still maintains that they are separate powers and skills belonging to the same person. After all, Getsuga isn't just an ability, it's a skill that Ichigo had to develop over time with muscle memory and training.
 * Soooo it like what happened later on in the arc but backwards? His scraps of shinigami influencing his Fullbring? would this mean any of the Fullbringers who got some of Ichigo's Fullbring also got some shinigami powers??
 * After all, Getsuga isn't just an ability, it's a skill that Ichigo had to develop over time with muscle memory and training.
 * I would argue this isnt the case. He used it a few times without being aware of what it was and suddenly/inexplicably used Zangetsu's version in Bankai. But thats a whole other topic. LegionZero (talk) 06:06, 11 January 2021 (UTC)


 * We go by what the Manga states and when he called oh Getsuga Tensho the Manga stated his powers had now fused, as in they were separate and Ichigo is an anomaly. It is up to you to demonstrate otherwise.

That table doesnt seem the most effective method to convey information. It starts with a contextless image and then the name and then the description.

A paragraph explanation of Getsuga Tensho and its nuances would work better IMO, but if the wiki is married to the tables, the flow of information works better if each character had a dedicated section of the page and the tables were ordered Name then Description then Image

Are those names official? Are they considered to be different techniques as far as the source material is concerened? If not then there is a certain degree of misrepresentation that the table seems to necessitate, whic kinda loops back to my earlier point that a prose format would be the better way the go about presenting the information. LegionZero (talk) 01:55, 12 January 2021 (UTC)


 * "Contextless image"!? What are you talking about man, the context is written right beside it!? I think its an improevmemt.  StarCrossKnight (talk) 16:08, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Exactly, all the detail comes after the image. I think the information flows a bit better if at the very least the name comes before the image. its not really much different than page set ups, where the name of the subject is the first thing on the page, then the leed, then an image. LegionZero (talk) 18:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Here's my take on the original post, point by point: In regards to later points, I don't think we need to massively overhaul the look and format of every technique page based on this one complaint about how Getsuga's looks/looked. I think that's everything I needed to cover.--Xilinoc (talk) 07:45, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Ginjō's not a real user of Getsuga. I'm well aware that he yelled the name and unleashed a purple beam of energy, but he's not a Kurosaki and he's not the Zanpakutō Spirit of a Kurosaki. It's little different to me than that nonsense in the CFYOW novels about the main antagonist being able to copy other Zanpakutō powers with his super-special-ultra-chocolatey-fudge-coated ancestral Zanpakutō; he's copying the effects but that doesn't make him a natural user. Same goes for the measly little beam that Ichigo fires with his final Fullbring form - his Fullbring had always been based on his Zanpakutō in form and power, but that wasn't a Getsuga in the same way the beams he was firing with his first Fullbring weren't a Getsuga, even if he called it as such (more on instinct than anything).
 * I'm fine with listing the Reigai on technique pages since we list them for Kidō spells already, there's no harm to that.
 * Since I'm late I can't really contest the table format, but it does look nice and clean (though per my point above I'd like to see the lone "Non-Zanpakutō Variant" removed and maybe moved to Trivia - Ginjō could also go there maybe). Would say to remove the User section as well and format it overall like the Shunkō variants template.
 * A user is a user, "natural" or not. One doesnt need to be a Kurosaki to use the ability either, since Zanpakuto can be passed to others. We  are not to decide who is a "real" or "natural" user or what is a "real" Getsuga Tensho. The page should be detailing anyone who used this ability and whatever powerset/tools/objects used to do it with. LegionZero (talk) 09:02, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
 * No issues with people who have a history of using it, being factually listed as pertailed to details in the Manga. IE Ichigo used it and the Manga stated that he fused his powers to do so. For it to be listed as a FB ability based on that you would need to demonstrate the manga states as such. In regards to Kugo, I can cook Pizza, doesn't make it an Irish dish. No problems of variants being listed and discussed as variants (ie a Shinigami technique) unless you can demonstrate the Manga supports your assertion that Getsuga is a a FB technique and not a result of Ichigo, the anomaly in every single instance of the Manga, managing to fuse his powers, as stated in the Manga.


 * Im not even arguing whether its a Fullbring ability or not anymore, sorry if I wasn't clear about conceding that point. It's a little muddy since Ichigo fused his Shinigami powers into his Fullbring, but yea, the manga makes it clear that despite Fullbring being the tool used, it comes from the Shinigami powers fused into it. That can be detailed in the relevent section.
 * What i am arguing is that Kugo as a user shouldnt be marginalized or simply mentioned in Trivia based on the arbitrary and ultimately meaningless "natural user" concept
 * I also noticed that the page doesn't do much in the way of leading one to Getsuga Jujisho. Its such a small page and so simple, why not merge it with Getsuga Tensho? List it as another varient, like how Ikka Senjinka is a part of Senkei? LegionZero (talk) 17:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Not gonna merge Jūjishō with Tenshō, Ikka Senjinka is on the Senkei page because the latter technique is a prerequisite and Byakuya explicitly identifies Senjinka as a "secret technique" of Senkei while Jūjishō isn't referred to as a Getsuga Tenshō secret technique. And I'm firm on Ginjō not being listed anywhere other than the trivia section because, and I want to emphasize this, he wasn't using Getsuga Tenshō. He CALLED it Getsuga Tenshō and it was an energy attack, but it's not the technique itself; he didn't have a Zanpakutō Spirit to draw power from in order to use it. It's about as authentic as the Bankai he pulls out later (which is quite visibly meant to be a gross perversion of the concept). He can go in Trivia, but that's it.--Xilinoc (talk) 19:06, 13 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Not gonna merge Jūjishō with Tenshō, Ikka Senjinka is on the Senkei page because the latter technique is a prerequisite and Byakuya explicitly identifies Senjinka as a "secret technique" of Senkei while Jūjishō isn't referred to as a Getsuga Tenshō secret technique.
 * But Getsuga Tensho is a prerequisite for Jujisho. Jujisho is literally criss-crossed Getsuga Tensho's and he launches the technique by making on Tensho and launching another Tensho on top of it. This isnt a hill im really willing to die on but at the very least there should be some mention of it to direct readers to it. Maybe an infobox section for "Derived Abilities."


 * And I'm firm on Ginjō not being listed anywhere other than the trivia section because, and I want to emphasize this, he wasn't using Getsuga Tenshō. He CALLED it Getsuga Tenshō and it was an energy attack, but it's not the technique itself; he didn't have a Zanpakutō Spirit to draw power from in order to use it. It's about as authentic as the Bankai he pulls out later (which is quite visibly meant to be a gross perversion of the concept). He can go in Trivia, but that's it.
 * Its called Getsuga Tensho, its executed in the same way, and it is obtained by stealing Ichigo's Fullbring, which was laced with his Shinigami powers. A zanpakuto spirit is not necessary to use Zanpakuyo abilities as shown by the Sternritters using stolen Bankai. As i said before, the wiki doesnt have the authority to decide what is a "real" Getsuga Tensho and what is not, only Kubo/Shueisha can do that. The wiki should be reporting on the subject in its entirety.LegionZero (talk) 20:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Except for that whole thing about the Shinigami who had their Bankai stolen being unable to contact their Zanpakuto Spirits, with the implication that said spirits went with the Bankai (the true manifestation of their power and all that) and only returned once Urahara gave everyone the Hollow medicine...you know, that small detail completely contradicting what you said. Consider that maybe, just maybe, Kubo was aiming for something different than you interpreted.--Xilinoc (talk) 11:41, 14 January 2021 (UTC)


 * That still contradicts your belief about Zanpakuto spirits and their abilities because the characters who had their Bankai stolen could still use their Shikai. So either the Wandenreich used bankai without Zanpakuto spirits or the captains used Shikai without Zanpakuto spirits. Fulbring Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho was outright stated to be from fusing his Shinigami powers into his Fullbring. So Ichigo himself used his Shinigami powers without a Zanpakuto spirit. LegionZero (talk) 17:55, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Right, for clarity, we go by what is said in the Manga. I am of the opinion that other users can be listed and other variants BUT we, as a team, need to come to an accord and decide how that is implemented. When a discussion like this needs to happen, you don't decide to move forward until it is discussed HOW to move forward. Patience is a virtue. We must come to an agreement and accord. Right now we are still figuring it out together. MY position is, there is room on the wiki to have all information but it needs to be stated and referenced and categorised correctly. Personally, I am a fan of how AoT wiki do it with tabs for each piece of media or varient.


 * My thoughts exactly about the AoT wiki. That is what inspired me to create most of those EU tabs, even if they could still use some work. Timjer (talk) 15:42, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

As I am quite often, I am in complete agreement with Sun and also to an extent you. I agree that the wiki could use a new look every now and again, but those changes can’t happen overnight. We all have different visions on what the wiki should be and we need to eventually find compromise so everyone can be happy. No one’s opinion is more important than another’s and while we do consider outside opinions, not every idea is going to make the final cut. We always try to do right by everyone so be patient. 15:16, 14 January 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree, there are some things about the wiki that even I think should change (and some of those are minor changes that I managed to push already). I just realize that I couldn't force you to suddenly change things how I wanted them to be, so I just contributed like normal and made suggestions here and there. I fully understand that change cannot be forced nor avoided; it just happens. Timjer (talk) 15:42, 14 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Throwing my two cents in, I agree that change is a necessity and an inevitability, but it isn't something that's going to happen just because one person decides that's how things should be. If everyone is in agreement that something needs changing, then fine, but going ahead and changing something based on your preference alone, sans collective agreement, isn't how you get people to agree with you. FutureEeveeKing13 (talk) 16:15, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I wonder if this is now the record holder for longest ever talk page discussion? It seems to be running out of scope to continue without just repeating itself over & over. Anyway, in answer to a question way above, I tweaked the labels on the variants that were originally there (mostly) to better encompass what they are. On G. Jujisho, no Im not in favour of merging with this page, not at all. And Ive added his shikai too since theres no picture of it and on that note since there is so much interest in this topic maybe people could vote on the active proposal re: the page's infobox image (Bleach Wiki Talk: Image Gallery). Just throwing it out there, minor but does non-Zangetsu variants/versions work better than non-Zanpakuto variant? I am getting tired of trying to find the middle/common ground when both sides have fair points, 3 weeks after this came up. 20:33, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I think that clarification should just be in the description or whatever label you all give it. The whole point of variations is to point out Getsuga Tenshos that are different from the standard one and readers will understand that whatever makes them unique or special is in the description. Headlining how extra-different certain ones are just seems redundant. Also, can we get some more official termonology? Also, what is with the caveat on Fullbring Ichigo's GT: Ichigo can fire a blue wave of energy from his blade that he calls Getsuga Tenshō. There is a huge implication that it somehow isnt really a Getsuga Tensho. Kubo wrote the manga and called it a Getsuga Tensho and it should considered GT until official materials declare it is not. I'm also kind of confused, aren't there supposed to be no changes until a consensus has been reached? Also also, the infobox still states that GT is a Fullbring ability. I tried to remove that but was shot down. Also aslo also, can we got some notes about differences between the manga and anime, such as chigo's basic Getsuga Tenshō is gold in colour(white with a blue outline in the anime) and creates a crescent wave of energy. for the Shikai GT? LegionZero (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2021 (UTC)


 * "I'm also kind of confused, aren't there supposed to be no changes until a consensus has been reached?"
 * Yeah, no, you don't get to play that card. Anyway, Yyp, the tweaks are fine and my stance on putting the Fullbring/Ginjo GTs into Trivia with appropriate explanations remains unchanged. Believe me, I wish this had been resolved a week ago without 3 essays of text, but here we are. Would be happy to leave it here and move on.--Xilinoc (talk) 23:36, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Manga profile pic
Since we're overhauling this page anyway, what do the others here think of potentially changing the profile pic to a manga one? Now, for the most part the current anime gif is perfect for this technique, I admit. The problem lies in that the anime decided to change the color of all of Ichigo's Getsugas, including this one. It's supposed to be golden, not blue, and I feel like a profile pic should be as accurate a representation for the article as possible (and quite frankly needless changes like that annoy me severely, like Rangiku and Nel's hair color changes). If anyone is in agreement, I'll look for some options to choose between. Timjer (talk) 20:14, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Fine by me. Might a case where the tab switcher can be used to show both like on character pages? Sidenote, this confused the hell out of me for a bit last night when I saw the page lists a golden version of GT and yet the manga pictures we have show his Shikai GT as golden. 20:25, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah that works for me, I've put up colored versions of the GTs from the first two arcs already, but if the optimal still image is from a later arc, lemme know and I'll put that up "early".--Xilinoc (talk) 21:36, 9 January 2021 (UTC)