Forum:Hollow Ichigo... when this all started?

He may have awaken when Ichigo first confronted Renji and Byakuya refer Chapter 53 to 57 when trying to save Rukia.

Renji commented after Byakuya interferes Ichigo snapped and displayed some abnormal behaviour.

would like to discuss this matter in here, appreciate for any comments and or opinions.

Regards.Soulreaper1234 18:15, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

That would not be possible Ichigo did not start his hollowification until his training with Urahara to regain his Soul Reaper powers. Hollows form by the loneliness or regret a soul had during its time alive. So hollow ichigo always comments how weak Ichigo is and that he lacks killer instinct. Which leads me to think that hollow ichigo was born from Ichigo's regret of not being able to save his mother and rukia, plus if you notice hollow ichigo only comes out in battle when Ichigo fails to protect someone on his own accord and needs help, i.e., needing to win to protect. During Ichigo's final fight with Byakuya when it starts to look very grim for Ichigo he says to himself"Why have I come all this way nothing will change if I don't win!" in other words Rukia would have died(Byakuya would have most likely killed her and Renji) if Ichigo lost to Byakuya and Ichigo would have failed. This same case with the final fight with Ulquiorra. --Lemursrule 19:03, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

I was having doubt that the Hollowification (Shatter Shaft Training) created Shiro Ichigo or White Ichigo after reviewing this again and again and again http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/55/13/ and http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/55/14/ and

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/56/06/ Soulreaper1234 19:31, June 19, 2010 (UTC) In here Ichigo was talking about winning INSANELY, same like when he at his limit White Ichigo took over his body and ridicules Byakuya and then when normal Ichigo tries to regained controls all he says he was going to WIN before being subdued by Ichigo in that final battle with Byakuya plus in all the Darkside of the Universe chapters all he talks was about winning and becoming more powerful when arguing or teaching normal Ichigo.

This is reaching at best. First and foremost its like saying that Ichigo can't have a any personality traits that are hyperactive or elated (which he does at various times in the series), without it being Hollow Ichigo. Despite the fact that at this time there was no such thing as Hollow Ichigo. Common unknown fact is Kubo doesn't write the stories that far in advance at this point in the story that your talking about he hadn't even created captains or the gotei 13. He just does what he does as he goes along. Not to mention that Hollow Ichigo didn't gain the ability to take control over Ichigo until his final fight with Byakuya. At this current time in the storyline Ichigo didn't even have his own spiritual powers they were Rukia's he had no access to Hollow powers at all. In chapter 55 doesn't showcase anything your stating as Ichigo's spiritual power was always great not to mention up until that point Renji didn't know anything about Ichigo's power or the oddness around it even as he was human. So what Ichigo was happy he was feeling good and felt that he wasn't gonna lose because of it. Now he's not allowed to feel invigorated or powerful. He's not allowed to gloat. He is a human teenager, he may have a good concept most of the time but he still isnt above these characteristics. He is your typical teen alot of time outside of the shinigami stuff. In chapter 56 it also doesn't showcase much considering Renji is making a statement about Ichigo's actions and character when he doesn't even personally know the guy. The actions and character as well as power are abnormal to him cause he hasn't seen it before. If Rukia said it may have carried more weight but she didn't so these points dont help your idea they actually further disprove it. --Salubri (Talk)  20:56, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Salubri thanks for commenting in here, actually it was DOUBT, I doubt that the Shatter Shaft Training that created Hollow Ichigo, when I came accross this time and time and again, actually the idea should be Hollow Ichigo Creation: Not Properly Explained... WHEN is it all started?, even I say he may have been awaken at that time I still have doubts, ideas base on doubts and because seeing so vast info about Hollow Ichigo how he is a Hollow, a being of instinct, even some call him a Vasto Lorde, some call him a Beast, sometimes Inner Demon. Or maybe it was translation that got us mislead, I am having second thoughts over the hollowification method that created the White Ichigo, when Ichigo conclude what happen during the training he did not created a hollow, he or his body soul that was becoming a hollow if he does not succeeded in becoming a shinigami at that time. There is no indication at that time White Ichigo being Created. Even it is acceptable to named him Hollow Ichigo, by comparing them to the Vizard, if for any instances or any explanation or references the Vizard have a being in their soul I think this DOUBT will be answer, but I have check there are no further explanation about this, the Vizard do not have their own Inner Hollow no reference at all. The Vizard become a hollow because they were infected by the prototype that Aizen have implanted in them that is why they become shinigami-hollow hybrid right? If we reviews the chapters in question where White Ichigo appear, it is all titled the Dark Side of the Universe, but during the 3rd installment in the Vizard Training, this is what happen, Ichigo turn into a shinigami, then Shinji make him unconscious, thus he is sent to the innerworld, the body soul started to turn into a hollow while the main soul that is normal Ichigo and the secondary soul White Ichigo interacts and fights. So the things in question here should be the BODY SOUL that become a hollow or shinigami or just pluses not the MAIN SOUL in Ichigo's case both them Black & White. So in Ichigo's BODY SOUL contains 3 beings of soul which is Normal Ichigo, White Ichigo and Zangetsut (the 1st Dark Side of Universe chapter). So the creation of Hollow Ichigo as the majority of fans called him are not yet properly explained. We do not have a clue that what type of soul Hollow Ichigo really is? So I am sure he is not a Hollow just a soul who happen to live in Ichigo's BODY SOUL. But really I am sure there is not yet good explanation on when he was createdSoulreaper1234 06:07, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

One again I dont know if your forgoing explained information in order to be imaginative on your own. But alot of this is explained and is the only way it is, there will never be an explanation better then what is already presented. There is no reason to question the Inner Hollow creation, as we all saw when it happened. At the shattered shaft training it was clear as day, why thats not enough for you i dont get. If your seeing vast information about Hollow Ichigo and not getting that I would suggest stop looking on other sites or at peoples opinions and only look in actual articles because your misinforming yourself. As it stands that information on his creation is explained. Its explained why and how. Beyond that Inner demon was the term used by Ichigo once which is a plausible reference of what the being is for him, not literal. Being of instinct is also plausible as thats a trait of hollow creatures. Never has it ever in fact been called a Vasto Lorde, thats fan crap. Inner Hollows arent actual hollows they are negative inner consciousness in individuals plain and simple. Vasto Lorde are the pinnacle of hollow evolution, despite not knowing anything about them we do know it requires eatting lots of hollows to gain that level which is almost impossible to gain no matter how many hollows one devours. Something ichigo doesn't or hasnt done as he is no hollow. On top of that read Hollowfication which it explains some of this. How the vizard became vizard dont matter, Vizard in fact do have inner hollows, hence why ichigo went to them for help, hence why they know so much about inner hollows. They even mentioning fighting their own. This is a reality of being a Vizard. Also explained is the fact that Zanpakuto spirits are apart of the wielders soul and reflect their power and personality. A zanpakuto is the ultimate manifestation of a shinigami's power. The spirit resides in the a shinigami's inner world (their mind), In the case of a vizard an inner hollow resides there as well and shares a physical body with the zanpakuto spirit as each are apart of the vizards power. The Zanpakuto spirit defines a (shinigami) power and the inner hollow defines a (hollow) power. Whoever is the strongest at the time gains control over the physical body. Largly this is zangetsu for ichigo but sometimes hollow ichigo takes over, when that happens he can change ichigo's physcial body which takes the form of a hollow because that power is dominant. Its not the same as your interpreting it Ichigo is still ichigo regardless of the separate personalities of separate power sources residing in his mind. --Salubri (Talk)  09:36, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Your explanation is great but, I am still not convinced if at the time of the training Urahara said something about the creation of inner hollow or even went further to explain us the consequences resulting from the training I would have no problems accepting this but I still have doubts over Ichigo's inner hollow's creation, then in chapter 397 Edge of Silence with Aizen claiming that Ichigo is the best subject for his research, he had known Ichigo special from the moment he is born, what does this mean anyway is he lying can we use what he is saying? Soulreaper1234 10:45, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Once again your thinking to far ahead. Kubo doesn't think this far ahead. Your taking something he wrote recently and trying to use it to explain something a long time ago before he even developed this story about Aizen in karakura town. Besides the obvious thing you have seem to forgotten. The one thing out of the ordinary about Ichigo even before meeting Rukia was that he possessed his spiritual energy. Ridiculously high spiritual energy for a human because he is the child of a shinigami and a human. Aizen couldn't be talking about his hollowfication because he wasn't involved in it. Urahara was the one behind it, as it was totally an unforeseen consequence of the shattered shaft. Your looking for an absolute where none exists Ichigo wasn't meant to gain hollowfication it was a rare accident. He was either supposed to as intended become a shinigami or hollow. He took to long and due to his high spiritual energy and will power he fought the transformation into hollow and ended up gaining both powers at the same time. If anything you should have been confused about what Aizen said most of it made no sense. Salubri (Talk)  14:46, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Seriously come on, you just can't undermined what Kubo's imagination are, we don't know that for sure when first Renji noticed the abnormal behaviour, Kubo may have sketches many plot already, and when asked in an interview he may just says what he wanted to say but, I am just trying to discuss the chapter on what we have been reading this past few years now, maybe we can put aside the interviews please. The chapter first in relation of Hollow Ichigo or White Ichigo creation (excluding all the interviews).Soulreaper1234 15:04, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

So reading into stuff unnecessarily only brings unnecessary questions. You have your answers even those you choose to ignore cause they dont fit your view. The interviews are just as apart of the site as Kubo is the one addressing many things in them that concern the story. The only thing about the interview is the fact that he doesn't come up with stuff months in advance he goes along as he sees fit. Everything else is information given. Your issues have all been answered by chapter based information. This is why we are very restrictive about the types of conversation on blogs and forums cause they leave the realm of bleach and then people start making up their own stuff. As i told you before this stuff is already explained. Im not undermining Kubo at all he gave us the information if it doesn't fit your criteria of what it should be saying thats a personal issue that has nothing to do with bleach. These are the answers there is no other explanation and its not are job to fantasize about what it is. Kubo's imagination is all that counts we dont get that luxury. The interviews aren't presented in the articles anyway. I think its the fact that your not accepting the answers for what they are. There can be no deeper discussion on some matters as they just are what they are. There is no speculation on stuff thats already explained and confirmed. Also we do know Renji at that point in the series didn't know Ichigo hence my point about what he thought of him didn't matter it was his interpretation of a guy he didn't even know. Salubri (Talk)  15:31, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Your are making irrelevant new information, lets analyse again:-

Old Info

Point 1 when first confronting Renji and Byakuya trying to save Rukia, Renji said he was behaving abnormally even after being slashed and or stabbed that could resulted in death

Point 2 Shatter Shaft Training:- is the point where White Ichigo been created. (According to this wiki) Reasonably this was Urahara's doing. If we analyse carefully what happened here, Ichigo succeeded in awakening his true shinigami power, he becomes a true Shinigami, while being warned by Urahara/Zangetsu if Ichigo does not succeeded he will become a hollow.

Point 3 During his fight with Kenpachi Zaraki

Point 4 Vizards Training:- supress inner hollow in order to use hollow mask longer. We can credit the Vizards on this

Point 5 Isshin indeed a Shinigami when killing Grand Fisher Hollow:- as of now reveals to Ichigo he is a Shinigami and he only tells us about Dangai and the Final Getsuga Tenshou and that Zangetsu maybe violent - so we knows Ichigo was indeed a true blood a human-shinigami hybrid.

New Info

Point 6 Aizen Explanation:- Claimed all Ichigo's victories against Renji, Kenpachi, Byakuya, Grimmjow and Ulquiorra, was indeed his doings, because he knows Ichigo's a Human-Shinigami Hybrid, he started sending emisarries as catalyst to provoke his potential as to aide his research findings

Question:- When do you think White Ichigo was created?

Point 1 refer Darkside of the Universe when White Ichigo makes an appearance he only talked about winning, here even after being dealt with deadly blows from Renji he acts so abnormally as commented by Renji

Point 2 There is no indication whatsoever White Ichigo existed during the training only Ichigo he nearly became a hollow and then succeeded becoming a shinigami, White Ichigo does not yet makes an appearance.

Point 3 when Kenpachi stabbed Ichigo and nearly dies Zangetsu shows up and takes him to his innerworld the White Ichigo shows up for the first time in the series (we can say he is created during near death experience in fierce battles)

Point 4 at this point we already knows he has issues with White Ichigo so the Vizard in here only show him just how to supress the inner hollows and use the mask longer using their methods of training

Point 5 when he was born by Masaki a human-shinigami was created, so what would happen from this point on?

Point 6 all the things Aizen's doing (claims) was to see what potential Ichigo could display because of his condition in Point 5 or maybe because he was planning to fuse with the Hogyoku.Soulreaper1234 16:29, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Big misstep first off the creation of Hollow Ichigo isn't according this sight its a fact from the manga. There was no mention of Hollow anything, your voicing a point that makes no sense cause you can't explain yourself the logic behind your point. There is specific criteria for becoming a hollow plain and simple.

1.) Renji was making an observation but it was his observation that hasn't changed this entire time you keep bringing it up. Thats like you stating someone you just meant is behaving odd. Maybe to you but you dont know that person for that to be a factual truth thats just your observation. What may affect one person a certain way may affect someone else completely different not all things are the same result for everybody. Also he only talked about winning after he started to win when he was losing most of the fight easily. He was happy to actually be capable of turning the tables and winning besides the fact that there was no appearance of possession as all the other times and at that point there was no hollow-ichigo connection period.

2.) Your right hollow ichigo didn't appear till later but that appearance came after the shattered shaft and the direct connection of almost becoming a hollow is obvious including the part where he leaves the shaft with a hollow mask on, hence hollowfication. Not evident until the shattered shaft, that is after the gaining power trial.

3.) You could say that hollow Ichigo was created then but how so without making up a scenario of your own design.

4.) Which they also explain having inner hollows themselves, otherwise how do they even know about it. Shinigami in general including captains have no real understanding of hollowfication or inner hollows or their workings they have made acquiring hollow powers illegal and they can recognize it visually but most are unfamiliar with it. Shinji even states dealing with their inner hollow was something they all had to do.

5.) Nothing would happen least your forget at the time of his birth his father wasn't a shinigami he was for all purposes powerless in a gigai (essentially a human artificially made body) and basically a spiritually aware human. Having been a shinigami allowed him to pass on great spiritual energy to ichigo plain and simple. physically ichigo is human, in the spiritual world he would be a soul with high potential to become a shinigami. Neither the two can meet as both are different points of existence. By nature of being unique he can go between the world of the living and the dead as he has a parent from each.

6.) Who knows Aizen's intentions besides that he knew ichigo was the child of a human and a shinigami, something unique and different.

The whole point here is this. The first point isn't even nothing more than an emotional response anyone could have and the reaction to something a person (renji) was amazed at and thought odd fighting someone human who stole rukias powers and fought with a large zanpakuto and how crazy levels of spiritual energy. the 2nd point explains itself unless you trying to make up your own story behind the hollow mask the representation of gaining hollow powers in a shinigami (hollowfication). Point 3 you would have to create a scenario yourself to justify how thats possible, where did hollow ichigo come from. Youd have to prove thats the case which you can't. Just because you didn't see him outright doesn't mean thats what happened considering his influence was felt and built up to that point via the continual introduction of the hollow mask without ichigo's knowledge or understanding. point 4 already explained multiple times. point 5 what happens he lives a normal life despite constant ghosts and the hollow attack that leads to his mothers death and the one where he gains shinigami powers from rukia. Point 6 hasn't been fully explained but apparently Aizen had been watching him and setting him up in various battles. But apparently he is not important enough for Aizen to be currently interested in him since his new transformation. Beyond this im not sure how else to explain it. Your stating the same thing multiple times but im not sure what you want to know as the information is there, anything else isn't even speculation cause the information to explain it is already given. Salubri (Talk)  17:15, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

No way Point No 2 it is not Hollowification of Ichigo, it is Shinigamification, yeah someone who goes into the Shatter Shaft Training method would either be a hollow or a shinigami as a result, the Vizard Hollowification (using infection and an unexplained prototype) were a failed experiments as was deemed by Aizen. Provided Urahara himself explain to Ichigo or even said sorry because of the consequences of the Training, even Ichigo before going to seek help from the Vizards said Urahara does not have a clue about his Inner Hollow problems, yeah Shinji and the others talk about their inner Hollow but their inner Hollow are not the same or have not being explained as the same being as White Ichigo, that the best we could only presumed they are the same. The training was not the reason why White Ichigo existed in the first place because when the chapters concluded (chp63 to 66), there was not any explanation about the being (White Ichigo) in question. So I am in doubts about the wiki info about Hollow Ichigo until it be explained in details and accordingly I will deemed this discussion a doubt. Anyway I appreciate your effort in here.Soulreaper1234 18:15, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Im not sure what your saying. Hollowfication is a shinigami who gains hollow powers it also defines donning a hollow mask. Shinigamification refers to hollows being transformed into something like Shinigami. Once again the method of how it happened doesn't matter your not gonna find anything there. They are all shinigami dominant with the ability to don hollow masks. There is nothing but that definition. There is bases for you to make claims that a inner hollow is any different then another in concept. Maybe in power or personality they are different but that is like the difference between anyone human, shinigami or hollow. Yes Hollow Ichigo has been explained a little more cause he is connected to the main protagonist. At this point your just looking for information that may never come and in truth not that important. Making the claim you made can be the same for every individual Its like saying Hitsugaya and Soifon aren't the same cause we dont know fully know their history. Apparently this site isn't sufficient enough for you, as you dont seem to be happy with the level of information we have here. There is no other sight with any information of the level we possess. Your asking for information that only Kubo can provide and most of us we are happy and patient to wait if it comes at all. Concerning your constant points they though maybe not intentionally dont serve to give any of use who works hard on this site any respect. The work we do adds factual information free of speculation and vandalism and you basically stated that its not good enough for you to believe, as youd rather make up your own conclusions and look for answers that support them even if taken out of context. Your entitled to your opinion but as i stated this information has all been addressed.Salubri (Talk)  18:40, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Refer your bold statement, what is your basis of claim here I only wanted to point out that Hollow Ichigo point of creation is not the time when Ichigo completed his regaining the power of shinigami. You jumping up conclusion assuming you now about mine being not happy with this wiki, maybe you view that I am criticising this wiki you take it personally you should revert back your claim at that, please the point here was only on that point when Ichigo Hollow was created not on this whole wiki, and I do acknowledge you guys work in here, but I hope you do respect my opinion on Hollow Ichigo whether the info can be found here or anyway be it in the anime, manga or even any Kubo's interview telling about White Ichigo, in my part I am still not sure about it, but anyway your opinion about me is your opinion, I want to say it again I do appreciate your effort in here tryin to get me to understand the concept I still not sure all about it and I am very sorry if you take this personally man.Soulreaper1234 19:34, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

The statement was from your own Bold statement. You cant not acknowledge information because it doesn't fit your criteria in one place and be ok with information elsewhere, hence why its an attack on the work overall. Your observations are based on hacking apart information elsewhere on the sight to fit your point, using hollowfication, Vizard, without acknowling the information to be factual on those pages either as they all confirm whats written on hollow ichigo's page. In other words these pages are all linked, disavowing one is disavowing all of them. So it is an attack on the wiki as a whole. Multiple times in the conversations you jump from one area to the next on various things when you dont acknowledge the information presented about hollowfication or vizard on the site only what you have determined is the right information. Your issue on hollow ichigo is an opinion based on what you perceive where as the information applied already explains and that is the generally acknowledged fact. By not accepting what the information gave us your i fact making up scenarios that cant be backed. Whether you choose to believe them is up to you but i dont expect you to not put this information of your own belief over the established information whether it be in forum or blog without explicitly stating its just an opinion, as information not backed gets misconstrued on this site and then we will have people placing erroneous info into the articles resulting in blocks and protected pages. Salubri (Talk)  20:11, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Oh my how is this attack on this whole wiki possible, are you seeing things mate, I dont know why you take this personal, eventhough I jump points to points just trying to back up my discussion on only 1 main things here is an attack of this whole wiki, I dont know how you are thinking man, I just cannot see this coming, I dont understand you at all man, you are twisting my point upside down. I did not accept the information is on my part only on the Hollow Ichigo matter that you bold but if you wanna view it like that then what can I do, at least I did not change anything edit anything in the Hollow Ichigo wiki pages, it just on my part sorry that you have to know that I didnt accept your explanation whole I hope you respect that man. If that is the case in your wiki's discussion page this is, if you say all the answer that will be answer by any admin in this wiki must be follow blindly and 100% then there is no need to discuss things here because whatever you guys say is definitive and we normal user does not have any rights to argue any of it, and anyone who ask question and got an answer that he could not be satisfied with it and stated it deemed as an attack personally on the wiki itself, you should laid all this in the wiki's policy man. But really I don't see Shatter Shaft Training created White Ichigo, Ichigo only nearly became a Hollow, but indeed he succeeded in becoming a true shinigami, there's no indication what so ever White Ichigo was created at that time, I am serious. Soulreaper1234 21:20, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Firstly any user admin or not will tell you the same thing as whats presented. Mainly cause you can't back your point with facts the information here the same you don't believe is what backs whats on that page. You can have your opinion but your looking at what you choose to. You wanted to make the point during the Renji confrontation but you didn't see hollow ichigo then and it also cant be backed at all. Now when the issue actually is about hollows you say thats not when it happened cause you didn't see hollow ichigo. Yet you can't confirm when it was in your concept but you state it as certainty. Your not getting Hollow Ichigo was born as the source of Ichigo's hollow powers down in the shattered shaft whether you seen it or not. Just as gaining his true shinigami powers happened down there as well. If thats not taken into account you totally deny a connection between hollowfication, hollow masks and inner hollows, how you can explain that if you do believe that, I dont know. By that logic zangetsu isnt the same as other zanpakuto and therefore shouldn't have shikai and bankai. If you need more information fine then wait for it but dont say the factual information we have on this sight isn't good enough when its what kubo himself wants us to know. My whole point is backed by the information in manga. anime and the databook. Its not my opinion its facts from Kubo if you dont believe it then its fan fiction because its your own interpretation not Kubo's. We take what we he gives us, we dont make up are story. Thats a fact of the sight. Not me as an admin or user just what it is. You asked a question which I answered legitimately with the information given as fact. I thought with the assumption that you accepted facts as answers but apparently thats not enough. If anything except the facts and anything else you dont know either wait for. I can put a bunch of scenarios up myself doesn't make them right or fact and we don't do that here. You came to the sight and asked a question or made a statement you were answered. We only deal in facts, if you were looking for a speculative conversation you should have said so. Sorry you couldn't find what your looking for but thats factual information. Just make it clear if your looking for facts or speculative conversations. Salubri (Talk)  21:46, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Okay what I am talking about, because the facts about when White Ichigo was created are as good as blur, we could only guess by using the facts that has been presented itself in the manga and that facts was not only when he completed the Shaft training, because it was not clearly explain I decided to tone down my questioned and wait for more info in the next and or future chapters, but you my friend are indeed very good in twisting my points from cold hard facts into speculative and imaginative things and that is why before my argument become label as speculative I back down, hands totally up, and I am strictly not looking into speculative things here. I am only looking for cold hard facts backing the White Ichigo Creation that is all to it. Thank You for participating in this discussion anyway.Soulreaper1234 22:12, June 20, 2010 (UTC)