Forum:Theory on Isshin's past as a Captain (Thread closed)

Theory on Isshin's past as a Captain
A rather simple thought, but, is it possible that Isshin was the captain of Squad 11 before Kenpachi? I know it shows that Kenpachi killed the previous captain in order to become the next one, but what if he wasn't actually killed, and that person was Isshin himself? --Lyani 20:16, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so. Kenpachi advanced to captain in a trial-by-combat that required 200 witnesses from the involved division. Everyone seems pretty definitive in saying Kepachi killed the previous Captain.

Not that it couldn't happen somehow. Kenpachi is bloodyminded but not bloodthirsty. He won't kill an opponent just because he lost a fight with him (like Ikkaku, for example). So it is possible to survive losing to a combat monster like Kenpachi! Great Cthulhu 20:39, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh here we go again... There was a topic already discussing Isshin but.. Shinji didn't recognize Isshin's reiatsu when he fought Grand Fisher, so he couldn't be the defeated captain of the 11th division 100+ years ago... Deimonos 21:08, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Also don't forget that Tosen verbally confirmed Zaraki's predecessor's death. Arrancar109 21:16, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

There are many theories out there. You should check out the older thread. And you will read a lot of opinions in depth. Quadrupus 02:04, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

My theory:
 * He is captain class (captain haori)
 * He knows Urahara (obviously Yoruichi) and Uryu's father Ryuken. He also knows about the Vizards, though Shinji didn't understand his reiatsu signature. Both Urahara and Ryuken know about his power (lost and recovery), meaning he is a contemporary of the two, older than Urahara and surely older than Shinji.
 * Referenced to the Pendulum arc and the following table...




 * ...I've noticed that (I don't take the idea of the Zero Squad or else as they certainly don't wear captain's haoris) there is no division where Isshin could have been the captain except:
 * He couldn't definitely have been captain of the 1st (Yamamoto), 2nd (Shihoin family, Onmitsukido), 4th (Unohana), 6th (Kuchiki family, Ginrei), 8th (Shunsui), 12th (Kirio Hikifune) or the 13th (Ukitake). ::Remaining options: 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th and 11th
 * 10th: No captain known, hinted or present during the Pendulum arc
 * 3rd: Rojuro became captain of the 3rd division 3 years before Urahara, but before that no informations about the precedent captain.

He was probably born after Genryusai, Unohana, Shunsui, Ukitake and Ginrei but before the Vizards ex-captains, and maybe same age or younger than Kirio Hikifune.
 * As he befriend Ryuken, they probably met during the slaughter of the Quincys and Isshin banished to the Human Realm because he protested against the massacre. Baronofash 03:43, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The problem with your theory would be that you assume he is older then either Urahara or the Vizards where there is nothing to support that. In fact it is more likely that he is younger if anything. As he has only not been a shinigami for the past 20 years. Which means he was one and still serving as one in some official capacity before that time. Ruyken is a quincy but human so he would have a average human lifespan. Urahara is obviously well around 200 years old. The likelhood being that he cant be a someone prior to shinji because we would have seen him. So its more likely that he is either as old as Shinji or younger. but it makes no sense either way considering he has only not been a shinigami for 20 years meaning either he was active before that time as a captain or he was not a captain at all. The only captain that is recent is Hitsugaya of the 10th division. Also you take the 11th out of the equation because there is no proof zaraki is not the 10th kenpachi and there is no reason to assume anyone would have that position but zaraki and the captain he killed to take it. the 3rd 9th and 5th were open apparently till aizen, tosen and gin took them. As having vacant seats for extended amount of time seems to be natural among the gotei 13. No one knows when the 7th came about but durable strong heavy hitters seem to run that division.Salubri 04:00, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, he has a captain-like haori, meaning he was certainly a captain. Urahara knows about his power. But if he was a younger captain than Shinji, could you explain why NONE of the older captains (except Genryusai) aren't aware of his existence. The name Kurosaki could have been remembered if he was captain of the Gotei 13, if he lost is shinigami's powers 20 years ago, they won't forget his name. Every characters with strong reiatsu are under the surveillance of the R&D 12th division, then they would probably found out his reiatsu signature when he killed Grand Fisher. I don't say he was a captain BUT he MAYBE was a captain, and probably or perhaps at my speculated period. He could have been an officer in a different squad than the Gotei 13, who knows. Somehow, Aizen could be aware of the Kurosaki's family.
 * 1) First of all, it's a theory with speculations not affirmations.
 * 1) In the case of Zaraki, I am persuaded that he is not the 11th Kempachi in the reason that in the Pendulum arc (in Japanese), Shinji compared the 11th Kempachi to a lazy pig suggesting he's fat. I don't see Zaraki lazy nor fat. Plus if Zaraki was effectively the 10th or 11th Kempachi, means that he became captain of the 11th division before Tousen, then could you explain how Zaraki fought against his predecessor when Tousen had already his captain haori (remember Maki Ichinose).Baronofash 06:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

This statement of mine is going to be off-topic of this thread's discussion, but I feel I need to say this. I'm not sure how reliable that filler is, and many other people here have taken into account that since it's not in the original manga, stuff introduced in the Bount arc, including Tosen's captaincy during Zaraki's fight against his predecessor, are not 100% accurate. I myself am not too sure (I don't recall the "fat" part in the manga, but it might differ from who translates it). I mean, I can see why people would want it to be Zaraki, but the thing that still has me questioning that part is Yachiru, not the Bount arc thing. When Zaraki first encounters Yachiru, she was still a baby or toddler. I'm not sure how old Yachiru is, but something tells me she's under 100 years old. True, we have no way of telling this, and while we do know that shinigami age slower than humans, we don't know how slowly they age, or if some age more rapidly than others. Still, Yachiru has always led me to question whether Zaraki was a captain during the TbtP series or not. Arrancar109 06:27, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I belive that Ishin being a Captain is still questionable. Now mind you not his power of Captain-level but him as a Captain. He has a haori with him which is why most belive him to have been one but since it has not been elaborated upon it can still prove him to be something else. Now him having stop being a Shinigami for the last 20 years I don't remeber where this was stated as a fact, did someone actually said or him you/I stopped being a Shinigami 20 years ago? or is this something that someone concluded by maybe reading between the lines of what he/someone said. Now as far as the Zaraki case when the TBtP Captains are having their conversation the say to blame the previous Kenpachi for his ineptitude no mention of him having been killed is said (Chapter -108). Now Zaraki is shown becoming a Captain when Tosen is already an stablish Captain in the Bount arc, however that scene is based of the manga (Chapter 146). An of course with Ishin there is still the chance the he may be 0 Division we know nothing about them except them being previous Captains and who knows since because of this the may wear the Haori of the Division which they commanded in the same way that Ishin was seen wearing his. I hope Tite gives us a litle more info on him so we may finally know the truth behind the man. WhiteStrike 07:39, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

After Isshin kills Grand Fisher, Urahara asks Isshin "How's your shinigami body, after 20 years?", so we know the number for sure (I've got my volume 22 right here, so no question there) My theory is that, if he ever was a captain, he was from either 10th or 3rd division. We don't know for sure when exactly Gin became captain of 3rd division, but Rukia was adopted by the Kuchiki household before that (around 40 years ago). So, as far as we know, the position was vacant since Rose left it, we don't know if there was someone after him, and before Ichimaru. So 3rd could be an option. And 10th is a very possible option, since we know that the captain was dead at the time of TBtP. Maybe Isshin was made captain shortly after the Vizard incident, and that's why Shinji didn't recognize his reiatsu. Then, 20 years ago, he leaves SS and Hitsugaya replaces him (it would match with Toshiro's short age). The only thing that bothers me is that, if Isshin really was a captain 20 years ago, and Rukia became a Shinigami around 40 years ago (since she was adopted a year after Hisana's dead -50 years ago), and was sent to 13th division immediately), then she should've recognized Isshin when she saw him in the Kurosaki clinic, but she has never showed any sort of reaction towards him. Lia Schiffer 19:00, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I have a slightly outlandish theory as to why no one seems to react to Isshin, particularly Rukia.

Memory modification.

The Shinigami do it to Humans all the time, so what's to say they wouldn't do it to Shinigami? Let's face it, this would be a plum opportunity for Mayuri to test something out on the Shinigami as a whole, and we all know how much he loves experimenting on himself and others.

Feel free to rip this theory to shreds and burn the pieces, though, because I know it's highly unlikely.Angeluscado 19:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well now that makes it even more vague. If Urahara said "How's your shinigami body after 20 years?" than a number of things can have been meant by that. Urahara could be asking How's your... 20 years of not leaving your gigai, or ...20 years of being in the human world or ...20 years since you last fought. His statement leaves more questions that it gives answers. As for the memory replacement thing it could happen but I doubt that it could work since Shinigami have a higher level of spiritual powers and at the start of the series Orihime and Tatsuki were able to remember the event with Acidwire (Sora Inoue). WhiteStrike 22:51, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Let's say, a theory is nor right nor wrong until it is not confirmed by facts, but it helps to give some ideas even false, because the true ones would finally appear from them. We call them hypothesis.Baronofash 23:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Just something I thought I should add to Lia Schiffer's comment. We do know when Gin took over 3rd Division. In the rescue Rukia arc, when she sees Gin on a bridge, when she's being escorted to the execution site, she has a flashback of her first encounter with Gin. She mentions Ichimaru took the captain slot just a while after Byakuya took his and then she mentions that when he looked at her, she felt like snakes were on her or something. Even disregarding Rukia's statement, around 50-40 prior to the beginning of the show, when Renji & buds are still in the SS academy, Gin is Aizen's Lt. in the 5th Division. So I think it's correct to assume he got the spot after Rukia & buds joined the Gotei 13, like 40 years ago. But yes, we dunno if there was someone there before him, or before Komamura took the 7th division. And as for Shinji's comment about the new Kempachi. Did he really call the guy a fatty?? I hears some "butta" something and dunno if that's some slang for fat ass. Oh well, but Shinji is always annoyed so I have my doubts if we can take him seriously on this one. I just think that if Shinji didn't recognize Isshin's reiatsu, it doesn't necessarily mean the latter didn't "existed" rather that he wasn't on the roster back then. He could've been in the zero division with Hikifune. But he clearly seems older than Renji, Kira, Rukia and Gin, Matsumoto and Hisagi. Maybe as old as Urahara. Question is, why was he in the real world? How did he get out? Did he do it on his own? Was he banished? How did he get his power back? Deimonos 15:48, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I have only read a few posts but just tolet you know the 10th division captain was aid to be dead.Saimaroimaru 03:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

All right I read the posts well, I think during the TBTP arc Isshin was a vice captain of 10th division, I say that because the 10th division captian is post to be dead during this arc. As for why he wasn't at the meeting where Urahara was introduced as captain, if he was vice-captain then he could dbeen close to his captain and perhaps too mentality distrught at the time to go to the meeting or to caught up in funeral arrangements or was doing some hollow killing mission in the real world. All I am saying is that I think Isshin was captain of 10th division AFTER the events in TBTP. If we can get a number on how long Hitsuguya been captain of 10th division and it comes close or is 20 years then I have no doubt Isshin was the captain of 10th division before him.As for why no one recongized him well if he was a vice captain back then nooe would care to remember to remeber his spiritual presuure(except his friends which seems to be only Urahara and Ryuken and maybe Yoroichi) plus 20 years is a long time with alll the duties of being a shiningami and vizards proably training, the last thing on their mind is Isshin seeing as his spirit energy proably dropped off the radar and its possible that when his spirit energy went off the map that the SS concluded he was dead and put Hitsuguya in the captaincy.The again him knowing Urahara could mean he was in the 2nd division and later promoted to 10th division. As for the current Kenpaichi, yes I think he was the Kenpaichi in TBTP arc. Till we get the current Kenpaichi's number or till we see the vizards and the current kenpaichi in the same room and see if their convosersation weilds any useful info. If Tite does plan on them having a little talk them it will be proably Shinji who drops the bomb as he'll either be surprised that Zaraki survived so long or he'll make note how the Kenpaichi during his time has me the same fate(or similar) as the one he defeated. If Kenpaichi was captain all those years ago it brings into question, Ymuichika and Ikkaku's age.Saimaroimaru 03:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Two things. About Shinji not recognizing Isshin's reiatsu due to him being a lieutenant during TBtP seems unlikely. At that time, captains seemed to be more acquainted with other divisions lieutenants. A good example is how Kyoraku addresses Aizen as "Sosuke-kun" instead of "Aizen-fukutaicho" (although this is Kyoraku, so I know it's no real reference), and besides, even a lieutenant-level reiatsu is to be considered as important. About Kenpachi, maybe we could know if either Yumichika or Ikkaku join the present fight, considering they joined Gotei 13 shortly after Kenpachi became captain (or that's what I understood). Lia Schiffer 03:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I think you guys are over thinking rukia not knowing who isshin is. he is might have been captain of squad 3 or 10 and rukia is and always has been a member (not even a ranked officer) of squad 13, and when have we ever only seen other squads meet each other at captains meets.Consume and envelop: kurogami 09:00, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Then why weren't they interacting with Unohana's Lt then? Thank you. Its possble they had social clicks and that doesn't mean that extended to 10th division theres no evidence it did. However its possible he wasn't a lt at all may have been of lower rank like Urahara. Remember no one knew him till he became Captain(with the exception of Yoroichi seeing she was hes former commanding officer). Its possible he was in the Onmitsukidō. It during the TBTP arc members from the Onmitsukidō were not well liked by other squads at least with 12th division at the time and left out of such social clicks/groups. http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.02/11/ http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.02/12/ It would make more sense if he was in the Onmitsukidō and then after the vizard incident he became captain(don't know how soon after as there seem to be no time requirement as to when a cpatain seat must be filled). As for why Rukia not noticing him, she may have not been precocupied with knowing the identies of captains she proably didn't meet that much. Plus she seemed to have stayed mostly to the Kuchiki household compound and the squad 13 barracks during her early days as a shinigami.Plus his reistsu level was proably to a normal human level and if she did recongize his face she would of dismissed it as his low reistsu level was proably just telling her its a concidence.20 years is a long time,I doubt anyone would remember him anyway, plus if we can find out how long Hitsuguya has been Captain and its near 20 then thats just a rubber stamp on Ishhin being at some point being the captain of 10th division, plus we don't know how long he was cpatain, it could have been short like Urahara's as for why Urahara is recongized by the current generation of shinigami(Ikkaku for example) then its because he founded the Research Insititute which proably changed SS Science drastically meaning he did something to be remeber whther he wanted to be or not.Isshin may have not done much other than his regular captain duties and may have had a short reign and therefore no one besides maybe the 1st,2nd,8th,and 13th cpatains would remember but no of those have yet to make contact with Isshin yet for us to see.Saimaroimaru 03:27, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

If Isshin was in the Onmitsukido during the TBTP, he definitely couldn't become captain after Urahara and Yoruichi defections, because not trusted anymore by the captain-commander. Soifon became captain late after but it would have been very hard for her. Baronofash 12:46, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Theres no support at all that the Onmitsukidō were no longer trusted after the events with the vizards and no support they were no longer trusted by the commander and if there was an investingation then it wouldn't matter seeing we do know that Issshin was at some point a captain. Bsides if Ishhin was still in the Onmitsukidō when the TBTP happened then they wouldn't know of Ishhin connections to Urahara beyond the fact they were in the same division at one time. Seeing as he was eventually pick to be a captain your point about him not being trusted is muted and invalidated by the manga itself. Theres no support at all that Soifon had a hard becoming a captain. Please stop making up stuff, if you have no valid points then don't post at all.Saimaroimaru 17:50, 30 August 2009 (UTC)