Forum:Starrk, Harribel and the Aftermath

Well it was a long time coming but not completely unexpected while other portions where.


 * First we have the death of Starrk, this wasn't unexpected it was anticipated and would have happened sooner or later. It's just that out of all the Espada he was the saving grace. He was the only one who had no arrogance, no particular hated for anyone shinigami or otherwise, he showed respect where it was warranted. If anything his one failing is not following his first instinct to leave the battle instead he choose to stay and fight for someone who was just using him. He is a sad character, not really evil like the rest of the antagonists, he was just repaying Aizen for allowing him to be apart of something so that he wouldn't be alone for once. Thats really the thing that made him likable even when he was on the wrong side, he was just lonely and when Aizen saved him from that he just wanted to thank him by following him. He died but in the end he realized he was never alone. A good fight none the less we got to see to vizard release their shikai and now we fully understand Shunsui's shikai and he couldn't have lost to a better opponent, someone who gives out respect to others as well, even after his death Shunsui stated wisdom of the futility of fighting. There was no shame in losing to Shunusi, he was more powerful but at the least Starrk met his match in combat.


 * Second there was the death of Harribel, this was unexpected but at the same time it makes sense. For her part in the end she personified her death aspect, sacrifice. Regardless of the fact that she didn't know it or make the attempt herself she was sacrificed at Aizen's discretion, though by his own hand. Harribel to me wasn't that interesting of a character and had bascially reached the limit of what can be done with her. Though i am disappointed that there wasn't an epic girl battle (her vs. lisa) that bleach really would have benefitted from. But in the end Aizen was right with the death of the two above her (Starrk and Barragan) there would be no way that she would survive as they were more powerful. Sooner or later she would have fallen especially against two Vizards and a captain.


 * Regardless of how cold it was it was pure Aizen, as I have said all along he was using the Espada/arrancar he had no use for them besides his own ends and when they outlived there usefulness he would get rid of them. He apparently has been playing them all from the moment he told them ichigo and friends were nothing to worry about when they first came to hueco mundo. From that first statement Aaroniero, Szayel, Zommari, Nnorita, Ulquiorra all ended up dead. Grimmjaw was defeated and now the two top espada were killed as well. The entire time he looked on uncaring and did nothing to stop or help the situation and in the end turned on the one espada he had left taking her life with his own hand.  Why because she was not strong enough to fight for him. Im personally so tired of Aizen can we like please kill him already. He so predicatable we really need a fresh main antagonists. Even replacing him with Gin would be better then continuing the arrogance and the all knowing, all powerful bad guy who never does anything but stand around at a battle bit.Salubri 13:44, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I can't wait till next weeks chapter to see what Aizen means by "let's go". He's either going to retreat or he's going take on everybody there at once, destroy the pillars and make the okun. We know that Tosen's bankai let's him take on multiple people at once but at the same time when he did it 100 years ago, most people didn't even know he had a bankai. You would think Kensei at least had been thinking about how to defeat Tosen's bankai for the last 100 years. We of course don't have a clue was Ichimaru or Aizen's bankai are but I would bet that they are things that allow them to take on multiple opponents at once too. So this could get interesting. But then again if it was so easy for Aizen to take on so many captains and vizards at once, he wouldn't have wasted time getting the espada. *sob* I just want to see Gin fight! Why! Why KT did you not show us Gin and Shinji fighting! *sniff* Tinni 14:15, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Man this sucks. Starrk's gone. The one Espada that was actually good, but followed Aizen out of owing him for saving him from his loneliness, got pwned by the freakishly powerful Kyoraku. Now Harribel is dead so all that leaves is Yammy (UGH!!). Now Aizen needs to die. I don't care about what he did to Momo, cause she just became ignorant, but he screwed over and used Starrk when he just wanted friends. That is not right. CRUSH HIM GOTEI 13!!!--Moe1216 14:27, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I for one don't think that Halibel's quite dead yet. Aizen's been shown slicing her across the stomach/chest, but it's not a confirmed death, as such. Just as an example of a similarly horrible injury for a character of similar strength: During his first fight with Ichigo during the Soul Society arc Kenpachi Zaraki sustained an injury at the end of the battle that, at least to me, looked like it completely separated his right shoulder and five or six ribs from the rest of his body, and yet he still survived and was shown a few chapters later sitting up and talking with Uryu, Ganju, Orihime, and the rest of the gang.Ulyenov 15:37, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes because Yachiru removed him from the area and called Unohana. Can't remember if that part was made clear in the anime but in the manga she says clearly that she has called Unohana. If he was just left there, if Ichigo was just left there (Yoruichi came and healed Ichigo), they would both have died from their injuries. So unless the Gotei 13 decide to heal her, she's pretty dead. Tinni 15:48, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thats a bad example Zaraki is in a class of his own and Ichigo wasn't gonna kill anyone even if he tried. Zaraki has survived many bad injuries and kept going regardless of the medical help, hence the point behind zaraki being fine afterwords and effortlessly fighting two captains at once. He is simply a beast. The point i think to take from this is Harribel was no use to him anymore his intent was to kill her and the slash is similar to the one that took out Starrk. Not to mention its more then likely Harribel wasn't any more powerful then Hitsugaya, Hiyori and Lisa as she was at a stalemate in actual fighting and couldn't beat hitsugaya's full power even at a immature level. so her instant attack at Aizen's hands was definitely not something she could have blocked against, its not likely she was on his level. What it was is a underling getting taking out by their superior, doubtful they are on equal power terms even without his zanpakuto.Salubri 15:52, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

The Gotei13 healing Harribel wouldn't be a bad move for them - they could use a prisoner that they could interrogate, or if that proves unsuccessful, experiment on to learn more about Arrancar. Who knows what they might learn. Unohana had the right idea with Gantanbein. But I don't see this happening at all, tbh. --Yyp 15:56, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Well i see your point with Unohana though she is compassionate for all so thats the bases behind healing the arrancar. But we all know the rest of the Gotei 13 are nowhere that nice. If anything she wouldn't tell them anything but she would be a good test subject dead or alive, so either way Mayuri will be happy to have new material to study. Though she doesn't need to be alive for it.Salubri 15:59, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Mayuri'd love them forever if that happened!

I don't think they're done just yet. I'll wait for an explicit statement before I'll say they're really dead (Starrk in particular). Besides, the Gotei 13 do prefer to take prisoners (if SS arc was anything to go by), though circumstance may prevent this from happening.

I'll give the possibility of harribel being somewhat alive but certainly dying until we see her do a flashback or its otherwise shown, but its safe to say that once the flashback roles the fat lady has sung. Nnorita, Barragan, and now Stark it happens infrequently amongst the arrancar but that is a definite sign of their passing.Salubri 16:06, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

We all knew she was gonna get bashed soon, but we hoped it would be by Lisa and Hiyori's hands.. oh well.. at least it saved us some chapters and finally some real action is going to happen.. just hope next chapater doesn't present something ridiculous like Aizen using an uber mega power to put everyone unconscious and then just flash step away to wherever.. Deimonos 16:35, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I just noticed something. Page 21 had the word "375/End" on it while page 22 didn't have anything on it. Why do I get the feeling the the editors might have messed up and his weeks chapter was meant to end with Harribel just getting slashed and the page where Aizen explains himself was meant to be part of next weeks chapter... Tinni 17:14, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't think so. It is actually not the first time they've done that (though I never understood why they did that). And the last page has the "A heartless blow" caption at the bottom, like is usually on the final page when there's a cliffhanger. --Yyp 17:23, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

LOL Tinni, it appears so. There the "375 end" in the corner and an extra page that should've been the opening of 376.. haha Deimonos 17:24, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I think it's just a cliffhanger ending, as it's pretty similar some of Tite's other cliffhangers. How would they have the first page to 376, but not the rest of the chapter, anyway?

But that's beside the point. What's with all the Harribel hating? I really liked her - she's a strong woman, fierce warrior, and an intelligent and caring individual. I certainly find her far more likeable than Orihime and most of the female Shinigami, who generally present themselves as useless idiots who need their asses saved by the big, strong men. Twocents 17:40, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I won't start a hate war over this. But I happen to like Orihime and most of the female Shinigami. They have generally more nuances to their personality, especially Orihime and Rangiku - both of whom get a lot of hate because they are fun loving, and do the best they can. However, most of the female Shinigami are vice-captain level. At this stage most of the vice-captains, male or female, need to be saved from time to time. Plus we haven't actually seen the women fight a lot. Rukia did and defeated no. 9. Matsumoto defeated that faccione of Gimmjaw after she was able to access her full power in about a second. Back in SS arc she also defeated Kira, not to mention blocked Gin's blade - whatever physical strength was required for that, it did require a lot of emotional strength because Gin is her oldest friend and someone she clearly cares about deeply. She and Hinamori were doing well enough against all three of Harribel's faccione till they released Allon. Who took out almost all the vice-captains present and forced Yama-jii to step-in. So no shame to lose to him.
 * Orihime hasn't fought it is true but her patience and empathy are her main strengths, plus I was really impressed with how she handled herself during the Lust chapters. People do bash her for crying "Kurosaki-kun" repeatedly but if you actually LOOK at that chapter you'll see that she achieved more than most of the other characters in Heuco Mundo at the time could have. Even while she was panicking she activated her shield to catch the falling body of Ichigo (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/349/05/), activated her healing ability to try and revive Ichigo (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/349/11/) and activated her protection shield again to try and protect Ishida from Ulq (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/349/17/). Only thing she didn't do was attack Ulq and let's face it, with the exception of maybe Unohana, most of the actual fighters probably wouldn't have stood much of a chance against Ulq and his second stage. Soifon of course held out admirably well against an opponent who really wasn't the type she could fight, given that she is all about hand to hand combat and Barragan is someone you can't get close to. I would have preferred it if her bankai killed Barragan but clearly Kubo had marked Barragan out for Hachi's prey sometime ago. So you know, my personal feelings is that the female shinigami and Inoue often get sold short.
 * I don't like Harribel because I happen to find her rather boring and foolish. Sure she showed caring towards Hitsugaya and was upset over her faccione's death and that made me go "Oh! This is different!" but from the moment she uttered the phrase "This is all a captain can do, I am done with you," and released... I realised that she was one of the most cliched of cliched characters. A female that loses her cool due to her emotions. Sure she had that same deadpan expression on her face but seriously that Hitsugaya fight showed that she really didn't have much to offer in terms of attack variation and that Yama-jii challenge... argh! But what really started to chafe me was how her initial cool and collected look started to become haute as the fight progressed and she started lecturing Hitsugaya in the most basic of battle tactics. Hitsugaya might be young but he's still a captain, he would know basic battle tactics. If you want to say something to him, say something like Kyoraku said to Love. So, in short, I was ready to like her. I really was. But she disappointed me greatly. Tinni 00:55, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

I really don't know what to think. Something just tells me that Harribel isn't dead, and I get the feeling that there's a reason Aizen sacrificed her. Of course, it could be simple, and she just outlived her usefulness, but all the same, there could be another reason.

and in regards to what was said above. I did like Harribel in the beginning, because she seemed interesting and collected. But like what everyone did say, she was a little flat. And in regards to the other female characters being useless, I don't think so. It's just that most of the characters are male. Most female characters are still powerfully ranked, so they are anything but useless.

Back in regards to Starrk and the espada. I'm pretty sure that Starrk is dead, though i wouldn't mind at all if he wasn't. Harribel, as I said above, I don't think she's dead quite yet. I think there's a reason that she was kept until now, so if she just went like that, then...that would be sort of odd. I think we'll all have to wait for the next chapter to find out what happened to her. KnowledgeandImagination 02:10, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

RIP Starrk,we'll miss you. T_T

Sting! TenRyuoh! 05:59, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Well some people were saying that in the last chapter when Aizen turned up behind Harribel they used the Kanji for sonido and not shunpo. So there appears to be hints that Aizen may in fact be a vizard. I wouldn't be surprised about the time both Aizen and Gin changed from wearing shinigami black kimono with a plain white haori/coat-like thing to cloths that looked exactly like Arrancar uniforms they were visually being differentiated as not being shinigami any more. Might also explain why Tosen was sent to retrieve Grimmjow. You'll notice that by the time Tosen came for Grimmjow he had already switched to dressing like an arrancar and he used a garganta naturally, similar to how an arrancar/hollow would (Urahara had to build a gate and use an incantation). Tosen being Tosen probably volunteered to be turned into a vizard first by means of the hyokogen as a ginnie-pig and once Aizen was certain that nothing bad was going to happen, turned himself and Gin into vizards and that's when they changed cloths.
 * So the question is, can a vizard Aizen, Gin and Tosen take on everyone currently in Fake Karakura and win? That wouldn't make a lot of sense to me because if he could do that from the start then why did he even bother with the Espada? I can think of an explanation, he, Gin and Tosen could take on the Gotei 13 as well as the vizards but they needed the Espada for the royal guards and so were testing the espada out, but it would still make me feel somewhat cheated. So I am not averse to Aizen, Gin and Tosen being revealed as vizards in the next chapter but I hope they aren't so overpowered that they just take out everyone still capable of fighting and succeed in making the Okun. Not to mention it would be a bit of an overkill. There are only three of them while there are four vizard captains with bankai, Kyoraku, Yamamoto, Komamura with bankai and if Hachi heals fast enough he might be able to get Ukitake up on his feet too! So if Aizen, Gin and Tosen does succeed in taking out everybody, I personally would feel that my time has been wasted both by the espada, the Gotei 13 and the vizards. Tinni 08:08, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Well, Soifon used the fight with Vega to scout out an arrancar's release, so it could be that Aizen is scouting his opponents using the espada as guinea pigs; I doubt any of the other captains will have use their abilities to anything like their fullest in his presence before, so he wouldn't know what to expect, now he has a much better idea of what he's up against.

As for Vizard Aizen, we kind of came to that conclusion a good while back, so it's quite possible. I still expect him, Vizard or not, to get what he wants though; the bad guy always does. TomServo101 09:54, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

You know theres nothing more that i cant stand then talk of Aizen being a vizard. Its beyond speculation and i dont know who came up with it. Who can tell the difference between sonido and shunpo in manga first off secondly he wasn't in a position to be stabilized by a hogyoku or go through encroachment and then theres the issue of having to deal with an inner hollow that could rival if not surpass his power. He would be extremely stupid to put himself in a situation like that. There is no actual hints about it at all. Even the scenario made up for it above is far fetched even for speculation. I swore this thread was about harribel and starrk and not something this ridiculous. We all know the stuff that The vizard and ichigo have gone through so why would the bad guy go through the same thing. Its more then a waste of time it would destroy the constructs of the very story and make ichigo and the vizards pointless as characters. Even the espada served a purpose, considering how aizen almost exclusively deals in arranacar creation. The entire notion above is because they changed clothes. Also thats not true the bad guys dont get what they want least you forget karakura town the main setting of the series other then soul society they wont destroy it. Aizen wont get that far because even if he did there are so many characters we haven't fully seen yet. If the driving force is to see more forces beyond the capability of the story least you forget there is nothing above the vizard only the royal guard and they are just shinigami too. When people say things that arent logical like this it makes them sound like they want the series to end.Salubri 14:30, September 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Aizen, Gin and Tosen was dealing with the "Aftermath" part of the thread. At this point we have no idea what his next move is. I am just hoping that he doesn't do anything so ridiculous that it just upsets the entire plot and all the developments that have happened since Soul Society. :( Whenever Aizen starts to do stuff I get scared. Very, very scared. Tinni 15:17, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Ok i get the aftermath part but when that direction is taken it becomes something more like fan fiction then probable cause there is absolutely nothing to insinuate that. It seems like in order for some people to be happy everyone has to be all super powered. First it was every single powerful person was a vasto lorde and now everyones a vizard. I mean come on, let the stuff unfold and if we speculate least let it be based on the information that we already have. There are way to many people on this site who take false information and fan fiction speculation as fact and the next thing we know its being placed on the articles only for everyone else who knows better (which are in the minority apparently) to remove it. Im sure you know what i mean thats what really gets to me on the speculation issue.Salubri 20:10, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Why do you think that Aizen and co. can't be something like Vizards? Didn't he himself said that only way for him to become stronger is to become a hollow because he reached his limit in all ways as Shinigami? I doubt that he don't want to be stronger and if he wants to, he doesn't have any other choices then usin' Hougyoku on himself right? Ergroilnin 21:12, September 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you missed the point Salubri was trying to make. There is not overt proof that Aizen and co are vizards. What we do have is people pointing to the kanji for sonido being used instead of the kanji of shunpo. This is something so small that it may well be chalked up to inconsistencies. Certainly when people attempted to put this kanji thing beyond a doubt they ran into problems. Firstly, they found that Nnoitra once supposedly used shunpo - an impossibility because Arrancar use sonido only Shinigami use shunpo. They did find that Shinji with mask on supposedly used sonido but apparently so did Aizen, Gin and Tosen during Barragan's flashback. So unless we are saying that Aizen, Gin and Tosen were hybrids even back then this sonido business doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. My point about the cloths was an observation that cannot on its own prove a thing.
 * Now this kind of speculation is fun to do as long as it's on the forums. When incorporated in fanfiction it might make the fanfiction better because it means the author is actually thinking about the source material and trying to extrapolate from it instead of just making stuff up from thin air. HOWEVER the problem the wiki has, and this is a big problem, if a speculation spends enough time in the echo chamber of fandom/forums people start to assume that it is a fact and try to sneak it into to wiki. NOT cool! There are lots of things to do in on this wiki. New articles to make, old articles to fix up in terms of content or completeness and referencing. As such most of us have better things to do then go around reverting changes made by people who have come to believe fandom speculation as fact.
 * I personally don't mind my speculation unless said speculation borders on the idiotic or flies in the face of everything we have been told in the manga or if people begin to believe the speculation so much that they start to believe it can predict with 100% accuracy what Kubo is going to do AND then get angry when he moves in a totally different directions. But what really, really, really bothers me is when people can't tell the difference between speculation/one persons interpretation and what actually happened in manga/anime. By no means is this the only fandom where this kind of thing happens, I actually ended up making a website dedicated to distinguishing fandom inventions from actual material for the Lord of the Rings fandom and I seriously sometimes I think I need to do the same for the Bleach fandom. Tinni 02:09, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

see this is exactly what im talking about, why he did say the first part he never said anything about himself, not once inthe anime or manga does he mention anything about his powers personally. He is talking about shinigami power in general, its not even hinted or slightly insinuated im not sure where people get that. Secondly he just got the hogyoku in the past couple months and he has never said anything about gianing more power except taking the throne all his experiments are in creating arrancar in his own words. the one time creation of those that are now vizards was a fluke experiment for all anyone knows he could have figured that the they would become hollows not vizard as the hogyoku was used to stabalize them making them what they curently are. Anything else is baseless assumption. Why cant they just be arrogant shinigami who believe in their own power like the arrancar and espada they use. Besides Aizen has his zanpakuto he doesn't need more then tha and as shown he hides behind its power most the time anyway.Salubri 02:12, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

I think Aizen has given up on the Arrancar all together, I mean he had the King, the Destroyer of Worlds, the Terror of the Night, the Kaiju, the Retard, and even Jaws the Feminine Experience.. I don't think he has much more he can get out of that, I think we are finally gone get some action hell for once.I think this was apart of his plan. To make his Royal Key doesn't aizen need t sacrfice like thousands of souls in an reishi enriched area. What if he plan on the espada deing and killing harribel was just hurrying it up. Remeber these hollows are made up of hundreds if not thousands of souls. Its makes sense seeing as he displayed knowledge that was a fake Kurakara town. I can see in the next two chaps the royal key being discussed if not made if Tite doesn't go back to Hueco Mundo.Saimaroimaru 03:01, September 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree. I think Aizen sacrificed all the esapda and arrancar to make the royal Key. they are just more souls for all the souls needed to make the key. Also, as mentioned above, he could very well be very arrogant about his power. Besides, we've barely seen any of his and Gin's powers at all. I think they have much more up their sleeves than what has already been mentioned. I'm sure than they are already very powerful, even if they don't have hollow powers.KnowledgeandImagination 03:26, September 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * I am aware of that fandom theory and I think it's full of shit! To begin with when a shinigami zanpakuto kills a hollow the hollow is purified and send immediately to soul society. They don't linger. However, so far arrancar seemed to just turn to dust and not break apart into spirit particle. This might be an indication that by being arrancar the hollows remove themselves from the circle of birth and rebirth and can't do anything but die. But even if we set aside those speculation, he still needs to be on real Karakura not fake Karakura. So which means that unless the population of Karakura town is less then 100,000 (nothing says it is) then this is a mute point. Honestly, this theory is so full of holes it is not funny. I wish people would stop repeating it. Tinni 03:31, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

I'll have to agree with Salurbi and Tinni. Saying Aizen is a Vizard is nothing but speculation. First of all, when he experimented on them in TBTP, he had no way of knowing if they would become Vizards, in fact, I doubt if he even knows its the Hogyoku that stabilized them. Besides that, when they were stabilized by the Hogyoku, the chances of them surviving was minimal. Ask yourselves this question; "Why would Aizen risk his own life like that?" After all his planning and the risks he's taken, why would he go through the Hollowification process that could possibly kill him? Ichigo's method of becoming a Vizard isn't possible for someone who is already a Shinigami, let alone a Captain-level Shinigami. Though I must admit, Aizen beeing a Vizard seems like an interesting thought, but as Salurbi said, this would be overkill.

I think this is the end of Harribel. Let us face it, she really has no surprises left. King Barragan was able to overpower 2 Lieutenant-level Shinigami (If one would go as far as calling Omaeda a Lieutenant-level, even though he has the rank) and a Captain, considering Harribel is the Trecera Espada, I think she's as strong as or weaker than Hiyori, Lisa and Toushiro together. Aizen really just has no further use for her, it is sad, but true.

"Starrk lost to a Shikai! I cant believe that! STARRK SUCKS!"- that's what the average fan would be saying. But let us look past the release level and look at the power released instead. As the Primera Espada, Starrk has the highest Spiritual Pressure (not necessarily the best abilities; Zommari, Szayel and BArragan's abilities are much more entertaining and ostentatious), so its safe to say that other Espada that have fallen to Bankais would also fall to Shunsui's Shikai. The whole point of Tite showing Starrk beating Rujiro and Love is to show Shunsui is on a whole other level than other Captains and Captain-level Shinigami. I even dare to say that Shunsui (and by extension, Ukitake) is on the levels of Yamamoto and Aizen, as Aizen and Yamamoto's Shikais have defeated many powerful opponents (Kyoka Suigetsu's Shikai defeated Komamura and Hitsuguya, and Ryujin Jakka's Shikai obliterated Allon and three High-level Fraccion and was able to fight both Kyoraku and Ukitake at the same time). It's too bad Starrk had to be the scapegoat to showcase Kyoraku's power.... I have a question however. Does anyone remember http://read.mangashare.com/Bleach/chapter-012/page009.html ? Considering that Arrancar are the 'evolved form' of Hollow, does this mean that all the dead Arrancar have been purified upon dying by Shinigami blades? If so, then all our favorite characters are now in Soul Society :)Grimmjow2 04:06, September 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * Poor Omaeda, he get's underestimated because of his goofy personality. But if his fight with Mamut guy (actual name too hard to remember) showed us anything it's that, that guy shouldn't be judged by his podgy exterior. Besides which, we aren't talking about Soifon here. She's the kind of person who would kill Omaeda without a second thought if she really thought he was worthless. I must say the anime fillers or even the movies don't do much for Omaeda. But then the fillers and the movies have even managed to reduce Renji to a joke :( So sad, so very sad. Back to Starrk vs Kyoraku, I agree. Kyoraku is on another level. He can defeat the primira with just his shikai. Heck, he'll probably be able to take Ichigo second vizard form with just his shikai too. Actually come to think of it, since Ichigo horn-thing didn't seem to be able to communicate if Kyoraku played the colour game with him, Kyoraku would basically get free shots becasue Ichigo horn-thing can call out colours! It makes sense too! Ichigo horn-thing is just a brute force of power, it would fall to tactics. Ulq was just not applying tactics and trying to overpower the thing.
 * I also think that Hitsugaya in bankai is probably as strong as Harribel, but Hitsugaya can't bankai again for sometime. He did seem to match her better in bankai then in shikai. I know lots of people have accused Kubo of fanservice over this, but I don't really think so. In fact, if you look at Ichigo (who is, taking into account the different between shinigami and humans, roughly around the same age as Hitsugaya), you notice the same pattern of behaviour as Hitsugaya. I.e. Ichigo can't even win again Dordonii Alessandro Del Socacchio with his shikai! But bankai... he can go toe to toe with Ulq! Sure Ichigo's power is "growing" but why is it "growing", because he's young and he hasn't reached his full potential yet. Same is true of Hitsugaya, by his own admission he hasn't reached his full potential so he probably is actively getting stronger after each battle similar to Ichigo. So it's basically three shikais vs Harribel would have equalled a drawn out battle that would have been bit of a stalemate till Hitsugaya could bankai again. I mean, the way Starrk reacted to the ice obelisk alone tells me that Harribel was done for had Wonderweiss not arrived. Aizen probably realised this and just decided to put Harribel and the rest of us out of our misery. Tinni 05:11, September 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Tinni. Hitsugaya hasn't by far reached his full potential. Besides, Kyouraku himself said that in 100 years, Hitsugaya could probably surpass him, so he's pretty powerful already. And many people think that Harribel could have beaten Hitsugaya. While I agre that it was a possiblity, when he used Hyoten hyakkaso, I was pretty sure that it was the end for her. I think that if Lisa, Hiyori, and Hitsugaya had taken on harribel together, then they could have beaten her perhaps with just shikai, because Lisa and Hiyori are also really strong (Lisa was able to stop Harribel's attack without even releasing her zanpakutou. I guess that's why Aizen decided that he didn't need her anymore, unless there was some random, important reason that he sacrificed her.

As for Kyouraku, I must say I'm very impressed with his shikai. I can't wait to see what his bankai may be, if it's ever revealed. I'm not sure, but I think we're now moving into a more serious battle with Aizen, Gin, and tousen themselves. Maybe his purpose for the espada WAS just to observe the techniques of the captains, and perhaps to weaken them slightly. I guess we'll all just wait to see. KnowledgeandImagination 05:23, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't seem like a very good reason. Having been a member of the Gotei 13 for an unknown number of years, but at least 110, it seems like he should already have a pretty decent idea as to what other people's Zanpakuto can do. For example, back in the rescue Kuchiki arc (I forget the official name and I'm currently too lazy to look), by Isane's comments to Aizen, it didn't seem like it'd be uncommon for captains to demonstrate their Zanpakuto's ability to others. Personally, I can't even contemplate why he'd do it. Every idea I've thought about recently with seems terribly common and predictable, haha. It'll be a real shame if Tite doesn't have some far more interesting trick up his sleeve than what I've contemplated, anyway. Twocents 06:10, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Speculation:

Aizen's primary purpose in attacking Karakura was simply to conclude his Hollowfication experiments... quite simply to draw out the Vizards and answer the question "Did they all survive with Urahara's application of the Hogyoku?" Answering this, he then can answer the question "Would I survive hollowfication? (i.e. Can I be certain to dominate an internal hollow with the help of the hogyoku?)"

It's speculation to state that Aizen is a Vizard yet, as many have pointed out. However, becoming one is his stated goal: surpassing the limits inherent in the shinigami form, with other goals to be attained thereafter.

Since the Vizards decided to show up, Aizen now knows that so far there's a 100% success rate in converting a shinigami into a vizard with the Hogyoku. Thus, Aizen can now confidently pursue his stated goal without fear of annihilating himself. (Actually, it's not a statistically significant sample set, but still, this is an action story.)

Collateral damage: A bunch of hollows, arrancars and shinigami who could have sought to challenge his further plans. Win-win for Aizen, and once again, no one caught on to what his actual goal really was.

Bonus devious-points... by "interfering" 100 years ago and saving the current group of Vizards, Urahara actually completed Aizen's grand experiment for him. By coming out of hiding to oppose him, the vizards themselves gave Aizen the data he's been wanting from the experiment.

Thoughts? -FrameDragging 07:13, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

I always thought about the scenario's theory where Aizen needs the Espadas to die allowing the strongest opponent(s) to make their appearance. Then it would be logical to see Wonderweiss's true power in the next episodes, maybe he is the one whose able to draw the espada's powers after their deaths, though we don't really know if Harribel, Stark or Grimmjaw are dead yet, injured for sure. Or, as someone said, to make appear an Allon-like beast; imagine a beast with the combine powers and skills of all espadas or Aizen-Gin-Kaname's. Or the other option is that nothing will happen at all, Aizen came to only test the Gotei 13's reaction if they invade Karakura townBaronofash 09:27, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Nope you cant even speculate that question because once again aizen has never not once insinuated of achieving more power for himself other then assuming the throne of soul society. The whole theory is thrown out cause thats nowhere in the realm of what his plans are stated. In fact he has only talked of creation of arrancar and attaining the service of the vasto lorde. He for all we know considered shinigami hollowfication possible but a useless experiment as it only turns them into hollows. He couldn't have known of their survival or that hogyoku could be used to stabilize them. He didn't know where rukia was for months and seemed to not even know that Urahara had previously used it as he thinks he himself is the only one with real power.Salubri 13:20, September 27, 2009 (UTC)