Forum:New Developments

Ok so Aizen takes out Harribel and tells her that he is basically disappointed and pissed off because he went to all the trouble of gathering the espada and he alone is more powerful then all of them. The he goes on to say that it is time to basically start the fight and calls out the Gotei 13 and what he terms as shabby arrancar wannabes. Now I wont say its confirmation by any means but I will say that these two accounts for Aizen would clear up at least for me 2 outstanding questions. 1> The top Espada are in fact no more then extremely power adjhucas made even more powerful by shinigamification as it is seriously doubtful that Aizen is alone more more powerful then a handful of vasto lorde class arrancar. 2> He obviously is unimpressed with the Vizard and seems to think they are inferior to the Arrancar and seeing as for the longest time he has dealt in shinigamification it would stand to reason that the notion of becoming a vizard himself never accured to him and was seemingly unappealing as he somewhat states. Hopefully if anyone else choices to see those point it will put those two bits of gross speculation to rest.Salubri 08:37, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I will agree that the current chapter does in fact seem to indicate that Aizen decided there is no point in breaking the wall between Shinigami and hollow from Shinigami side, I can't agree that it definitively indicates that the top two were not Vasto lords. I never thought that Harribel was but we have seen Barragan in his pre-arrancar days and he looks NOTHING like the confirmed adjuchas and it's not like we haven't seen adjuchas. Not saying it confirms him as a Vasto lord but he is the closest thing to the description of Vasto lord we do have. Then there is Starrk, who was so powerful that he couldn't live with other hollows... again doesn't say he is a Vasto Lord but it is a point in that column. To me what Aizen comments say is that he's disappointed with the whole arrancar thing. To begin with, when he came to Karakura Town he was saying, to Gin minus any other audience save Tosen, that he believe the espada would wipe the floor with the Gotei 13. If the top three were just adjuchas I doubt Aizen would be so confident of his victory. No, I think at least Starrk and Barragan were Vasto Lord and the fact that they were defeated has lead Aizen to be so severely disappointed that he didn't even wait for Harribel to finish fighting. I think his statement is more "I give up! Even Vasto Lord class arrancar are nothing but shit", not "None of you were Vasto Lords, I knew I should have waited to get more of them". I don't know if Kubo will ever confirm who is and who isn't a Vasto Lord, but I hope that when these chapters come out in the form of manga volumes, he'll include a profile page that'll settle this question. Until then, I am maintaining my position that Starrk and Barragan at least were Vasto Lord and Aizen just pulled the plug on this entire arrancar project because even his vasto lord arrancars failed him. Tinni 09:24, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

The Espada 4 and up are all more powerful than captains. Harribel survived Hitsugaya's ultimate 'this is dangerous could kill everything' attack without any noticeable damage (needed to be broken free but she wasn't *hurt* and that was Toshiro's best shot), and 1 and 2 both took multiple captains to beat. Vasto Lorde are only 'more powerful than captains'. Note the lack of 'significantly', 'greatly', etc..

Aizen just outright said he's more powerful than all the Espada which includes 4 'stronger than captains', two more 'about as strong as captains' who gave captains good fights, and 4 'near as strong as captains'. So with that the standards he's judging himself by? Heck yea I can believe he's more powerful than a handful of Vasto Lorde. I have no idea what he is, but he's stronger than everything.ZeroSD 11:12, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't this seem a little odd to all of you. Aizen seemed to plan for every possibility. But now, Yammy is the only arrancar left. And we all know he's screwed. I'm telling you Aizen has a backup plan. I mean he sounded pissed, but he didn't seem a little less pissed then he should be. I mean he has to defeat the strongest people good has, and win almost single handidly. he's got a backup plan, not sure what it is, but he's got one. Elementite 11:21, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * He has a back-up plan. Himself :D Tinni 11:36, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

He was probably just testing the espada, to see how good they are but now that all are dead except for Yammy and Grimmjaw he's probably going to implement his backup or real plan.--SalmanH 11:44, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Salubri complained about the the three (maybe even the top four) being Vasto Lord speculation and while I am not disagreeing that it is speculation, at least the weight of evidence, especially for Starrk and Barragan being Vasto Lord class arrancar, is a lot higher than for the speculation that Aizen has a "back-up army". I mean, the fact that Aizen approached Starrk and Barragan personally is probably the biggest tick to them being something extraordinary and Vasto Lord's are something rare and extraordinary when it comes to hollows. But this Aizen "back-up army" thing... what do we really have to go by except that Aizen has been known to plan things out well in advance. But that's just the point. Aizen DIDN'T expect his top three to be defeated. He said so himself and at this point there is no reason for him to lie about something like that. This to me adds another evidence for the top three being Vasto Lord AND another evidence in the box that says Aizen doesn't have a super secret back-up army. If he did, he wouldn't be getting ready to battle it out with the Gotei 13 and Vizards himself. Aizen has never shown he particularly likes to get his hands dirty. So if he is preparing to get his hands dirty that means he has activated Plan B which in this case appears to be "Screw it! I'll just kill you all myself." Tinni 12:10, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * If that's his plan B it will obviously fail. Aizen is supposed to be too smart for that, but maybe he's feeling really frustrated. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) 12:37, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I think Aizen misjudged the power of the Espada compared to the Gotei 13 and not Himself when he said he is more powerful than them all. Now the reason I said this was because their was only one Espada that took two Captain level shinigami to kill him and that was Barragan. the only reason I say it two people for him was because Soifon was a bad match up for him so Hachi needed to step in. Starrk was defeated single handed by Shunsui and fairly easy I must say. Tia would have been defeated I think if she wasnt released by WW. Cuarta was defeated by Ichigo but we all know what happened there. From 5 on to 8 or lets say 9 were defeated by only one person. So Aizen is to be stronger than everyone who defeated a Espada so thats why he said he is stronger than them all. The only fight that has actually taken two shinigami to fight is WW. Though Mashiro gave him a beaten he and still out lasted her mask he had to be stopped by Kensei. Now time will tell the kinda fight he will put up against Kensei but we must remeber he still didnt release his zanpakuto yet either so he is not a full strength. Tealang99 12:47, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Alleluia! Aizen flips his lid at long last! He does have a personality afetr all. I can't wait to see what he does next. Sadly, it'll be for another time. Next week'll probably be Wonderweiss and Kensei, I bet. TomServo101 12:48, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I think Aizen has a back-up plan, because if he doesn't, he has to be defeated in this arc which would effectively end the series. Since it seems that Kubo Tite has plans for Bleach (like, some other mini-arcs and insights into different characters and lots of other stuff) he will keep the main villain alive and plotting until the very end. Besides, it was always emphasized that Aizen will do anything to achieve his goal, so it would've been rather odd for him to just stand there and watch serenely if the fate of his World Dominance project had actually depended on it. P.S. I read that Kubo Tite promised "a more evil Aizen" - that'd explain it. I wouldn't be surprised even if it turned out Aizen didn't need the King's Key at all, or already has it manafactured somehow =)

First up, Tealang what are U talking about? During the entire fight with Barragan, Soifon was the only captain he fought with. Marechiyo is a lieutenant, & I know Hacchi is strong enough to be considered a captain, but he isn't & wasn't, he was the lieutenant of the Kido Corps. Second during Starrks fight a total of 4 separate captain level shinigami fought him, Shunsui, Jushiro, Love, & Rose, count em'. I'm not trying to be rude, but I think U just aren't giving Starrk enough credit. Besides that the top 4 Espada were Vasto Lordes & heres why I think that. Ulquiorra stated that the top 4 Espada are forbidden by Aizen to release their Zanpakuto inside of Las Noches. I would also like to point out that the 4 Adjuchas we have seen were hardly a match for a 3rd or 4th seat shinigami 1-on-1. I would also like to point out that when Toshiro talked about the Menos he stated that the Vasto Lorde were BELIEVED to be stronger then the AVERAGE SHINIGAMI CAPTAIN. I don't know if there are any other Arrancar that could be Vasto Lordes, but it is possible that Wonderweiss is. I don't know why, but I have a feeling hes stronger & smarter then he's letting on. Minato88 15:30, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

What if all of this is Aizen's zanpakto ability? all the arrancar/espada in fake karrakura town are just part of his hypnosis, and none of them are actually defeted? --Ihaveaname 15:49, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * Amusing but I don't think so. If only because that would be a plot twist more retarded then "it was all just a dream!" and essentially mean that everything that has happened since chapter 354 has been a total and utter waste of time. Frankly, I think Kubo has better things to do then spend hours and hours drawing so many chapters only to go "Hey guys, guess what! It was all an illusion! Nothing actually happened!" Tinni 16:19, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

See this is why i started the thread. Im not sure exactly how many people know what a vasto lorde is because im reading bits and pieces of information. Hitsugaya actually states that Vasto-Lorde menos are the highest level of menos. They are extremely small hollows. Roughly the same size as humans. they are extremely rare in number. It is said you can counter their entire number within Hueco Mundo with only the fingers on your hands. The Vasto Lorde's combat abilities are above that of our captains.


 * 1) We see Espada number 2 Barragan, who in fact was already an arrancar prior to aizen's arrival (as he pulls out gran caida to combat aizen after he kills all his army) he is by far the most powerful espada seen and he fought Soifon, though she was at a disadvantage because of his power her bankai is enough to cause him serious injury and possibly destroy him if he hadn't used his powers on it. In the end Hachi took him by using his own powers against him.
 * 2) We see Espada number 1 Starrk more powerful then all the others (supposedly) and he is an arrancar before Aizen meets him as well. He fights Shunsui and then Ukitake and then Love and Rose. While Love and Rose are overwhelmed by the techniques he uses to gang up on them (it by no means reflects their skill as we barely see them do anything and they only used shikai from only using sealed zanapakuto, if they are guilty of anything then its holding back when they shouldnt much like ikakku), Starrk then fights Shunsui again who kills him with ease using just his shikai and barely breaking a sweat at all. We gave Starrk credit for being a interesting character and formidable fighter but apparently that mattered little when facing Shunsui and it means little when the vizard he was fighting werent even going all out.
 * 3 We see Espada number 3 Harribel who pretty much at this point is as good as dead because the two espada ranked higher then her are dead already. She originally fights hitsugaya and while she originally overwhelmed him, he eventually starts to take the upper hand as the arrogance of arrancar started to show she began to underestimate him and even in released form her water powers were curtailed by his power over water, ice and the weather. He then goes to finish her off and WW comes and messes the whole thing up, so she gets out and its back to fighting. Now Hitsugaya isn't defeated or even seriously attacked its just that she is still alive, then he is joined by Lisa and Hiyori who go at her as well. Aizen comes and takes her out of the picture.


 * Something I'll note on Harribel. While Hitsugaya successfully imprisoned her with his ultimate attack, once she was freed she did not appeared harmed by it. Compare to Luppi and what freezing did to him, he was in rough shape. So Harribel was still tough enough to not be noticeably injured by a Bankai ultimate attack, and nothing but his ultimate attack likely would've done much of note. ZeroSD 23:35, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

OK so at this point all Espada have been taken out of the equation sans Gimmjaw and Yammy. The Majority by captains alone, when it comes to the 4th Espada he was defeated by a fully hollowfied vizard (controlled by hollow ichigo) which derails his supposed greatness and showcases ichigo who isn't even the in the top 5 of powerful people in series despite the new power. The point making is there is no proof of Barragan nor Starrk being Vasto Lorde, you would have to show their hollow form to prove they are the size of a vasto lorde (roughly human) since they were both arrancar in the flash back its not likely we will ever see more. Yes they are powerful but Stark couldn't beat Shunsui who was using only shikai, sure he could hold his own but apparently not enough to survive. What happened to the vasto lorde have combat abilities that surpasses the captains because what i see is a rival of power but no captain gives up or is defeated here. Soifon was still kicking and willing to fight even armless and unable to touch her opponent or get near him at all. Hitsugaya was still ready to go with no problems and Shunsui was playing possum half the fight while Love and Rose were interrupted by Shunusi's interjection into the battle. My basic point is if vasto lorde are so powerful and these 2 (Starrk and Barragan) are supposed to be it im not seeing it, yes they are powerful but apparently not what we think. The outer side is they are just powerful adjuhcas. Im not really seeing the point of it being a big deal either way. If they were then Shunsui can defeat a vasto lorde arrancar with just shikai and its obvious they can have their own powers turned on them now. Im just not believing that Aizen is more powerful then all the espada including the top 3 unless they werent that powerful to begin with to be controlled by a shinigami, it would seem more likely that they werent that powerful in terms to what he was trying to achieve as it comes from his own mouth. He gives no indication that they are supposed to be powerful due to coming from vasto lorde hollows. In truth the only power we see from him that trumps everyone is his zanpakuto. I will state that if anything wonderweiss maybe one but thats not a positive assertion seeing as he doesn't seem to smart, he is more or less all instinct no strategy, autistic which can be advantages mentally in some respects but in battle idk.

also minato88 hachi was a lt like 100 years ago, he is neither given that rank or status any longer he is neither shinigami nor kido corps or what have you any longer suffice to say the fact that he took on barragan was amazing. We really need to get out of the idea of categorizing their power based on as system they no longer belong to. It has been 100 years and the Vizard have been fighting some heavy hitters in this battle that were hard pressed for the captains to deal with for a bit so the lt stuff no longer applies to these individuals, hence why no lt survived a sever beating from the faccion so no he cant be placed in the same category as them. Secondly adjuchas can be more powerful then one another its about power not being some high level evolution. same as the captains and lieutenants are all shinigami the difference is power but they are still shinigami. Vasto lorde are supposed to be small in number and elusive at best. The fact that the top 4 cant release under los noches proves nothing besides that their release as arrancar are so powerful in comparison to other arrancar aizen doesn't want them destroying the building.Salubri 16:44, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * But that's THE only argument for them not being Vasto Lord. I.e. they were defeated. Which is a ridiculous argument to make. Has Hitsugaya ever seen a Vasto Lord? NO! Has even Yama-jii seen a Vasto Lord? Who knows! Hitsugaya recited what he read in a text book. I would seriously not take him literally when it comes to his assessment of Vasto Lord power. I mean, the first time a Menos Gillian is introduced Rukia nearly has a panic attack. At that point she has never seen one except in a text book. However, by the start of the Arrancar arc she effortlessly killing Di-Roy after having just recovered her power! Di-Roy even unreleased should be more powerful then a Gillian! So clearly it's not that Rukia or other seated Shinigami are not capable of fighting Menos. Menos is usually not what they fight. As such for them the "threat" of gillian is actually greater just because most of them would never encounter one. I.e. they are told that it's something really scary and if you meet one you will die! Since most of them will never meet one they have no way of judging the true strength of a menos agains their own power.
 * I also can't agree with you about Barragan. Yes he had the axe but he had that axe in his released state too! Doesn't mean he was an arrancar before he met Aizen. That WAS Barragan's hollow form. Now Starrk when he met Aizen looked exactly like he does unreleased so with him we can say he was a very complete arrancar before he met Aizen but Barragan... nope. Anyway, point is, I am well aware of what a Vasto Lord is and I am well aware of what Hitsugaya said about them. BUT in this case all evidence points to them BEING vasto lord. Their defeat in the grand scheme of things means very little, especially since Hitsugaya never said "the Vasto Lords are powerful then even Yama-jii and Kyoraku and Aizen and..." You see my point. The problem is that the Vasto Lords have been hyped beyond reason and that hype is mostly speculation too because the source of that information, Hitsugaya Toshiro, repeated commonly held wisdom NOT first hand experience. Tinni 17:05, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think that he didn't plan on the Vizards interfering. Or if he did, then he figured it wasn't going to make that big of a difference. Remember, before their intervention, Harribel was free from the ice prison, Barragan wasn't harmed by Soifon's missile, Kyoraku was shot down by Starrk and Ukitake was impaled by Wonderweiss.
 * The power of the top three Espadas were undeniable. Harribel could manipulate water. She was probably using all the water in the atmosphere to attack Hitsugaya and she was hinted at having one powerful attack when the battlefield was filled with condensation. Barragan, for the most part, couldn't be touch. His Respira rotted anything that it came in contact with. Starrk was impossible to get a hit on at the beginning. He could fight two captain level fighters at the same time. Plus when Wonderweiss came out with Fura and freed Aizen, Kira thought it was over.
 * Probably it would have been had the Vizards not entered the fray. Or, if they were somehow able to pull out a victory, it would have come at great cost to them. Aizen would have had no problem finishing them rather quickly.

So as Barragan and Starrk fell to the Gotei 13 / Vizard, he probably thought it would be more expedient to kill Harribel. Tercera Espada or not, there was no way that she alone was going to defeat everyone. So, Aizen killed her and decided to fight everyone himself. He's a busy man. He had a key to make and a king to kill. So he decided to finish everyone off himself. (Although it would be messed up if this was all an elaborate illusion by Kyouka Suigetsu

As a side note, I think that after Wonderweiss is defeated, the story's going to revert back Ichigo and Hueco Mundo and the fight with Yammy. --Shinitenshi 17:12, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * Can we PLEASE not have any more comments about how this is all an illusion! To begin with, what would Aizen have to gain by making the Gotei 13 believe that the espada were defeated with such an elaborate illusion? More importantly, it's one thing to have "it was all an illusion" bull-crap at the end of a two part Family Guy episode or a short story that spans a few pages. But to have that kind of crap in a manga after 22+ weeks... even if Kubo planned such a storyline I doubt JUMP editors would let it through just because it would literally mean Kubo has wasted the last 22+ weeks! So STOP IT already! It doesn't make sense story-wise, it doesn't make sense from a practical stand point, it doesn't make sense! Tinni 17:15, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

To Minato The reason I said what I said is because Love and Rose would have been defeated and their attacks had no effect on Starrk. They did slow him down or help in his defeat. Unlike Barragan Soifon was needed to defeat his so it took two shinigami to defeat him. The reason I call Hachi captain level is because it was 1LT with a mask. Plus his knowledge of Kido puts him as Captain level to me. Dont worry Im not offended of anything I just feel that Starrk vs Love And Rose was a non issues. I mean Starrk wasnt not even effected by their attacks. So to me they did not help in the defeat of Starrk. Tealang99 17:14, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Ok so Tinni i would pose this to you if you don't believe what hitsugaya said then in fact we know nothing about vasto lorde. The opposite side is maybe the information he has is giving vasto lorde to much credit and they maybe not so powerful or at least not as powerful or more so then the current class of captains. You cant state all evidence points to it you just said it doesn't since what hitsugaya said is all we know about vasto lorde, it maybe textbook general fact but its all we have and you basically shot that down as inaccurate or not enough to go on when its all we have to go on, what a vasto lorde is, is not mentioned at all in the series other then aizen telling gin he is looking form them. Also actually it does that battle axe your referring to was his zanpakuto arrgontae what im talking about is the one he has in his released state (which the same release state he had back then and its gran caida the same axe in the two times we see him released totally different from his unreleased state). Yes we talk about how the battle was so in the espada's favor but really was it. Soifon would have defeated Barragan if not for his power. Harribel could have been using her powers but she wasn't gonna defeat hitsugaya that much was clear and she noticeably was in shock at his abilities as well and seemed to not be able to counter his last attack on her own as she was surprised by that as well. Starrk didn't get a blow landed on him but as well he didn't land a blow on shunusi and when he did it was like nothing to the captain so its questionable at best how far the fight would have been going in their favor save for Barragan who required the direct intervention of Hachi. Also no one can know if starrk would have been defeated by Love and Rose as they were interrupted while i agree that the fight wasn't an issue last i checked Hachi wasn't a lt of anything so why do we keep addressing the vizard by titles they have not had in over 100 years.Salubri 17:28, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Salubri you're 1 of my favorite users here. U stick to the facts & make good arguments. Also I would like to thank U again for responding to my question so quickly, but U kinda just shot yourself in the foot. U say that Barragan can't be an Vasto Lorde beacuse without his Rispera he would have easily been defeated by Soifon. Well that can be turned both ways. Could she have beaten Barragan without her Zanpakuto. What if none of them had any special abilities with their zanpakuto. Would Yamamoto have been able to trap Aizen, Gin, & Tosen inside the spherical fire without his Zanpakuto, don't think so. So saying that Barragan is nothing without his Zanpakuto's special ability is an illogical argument & goes both ways. Also Hacchi was too the Lt of the kido corps 110 years ago, which is why I TYPED BOTH WASN'T & ISN'T. Just because he could be or is strong enough to be a captain DOESN'T MAKE HIM ONE! Also I agree with User:Tinni. The Vasto Lorde have been hyped to unrealistic levels. If the average Shinigami is stronger then the average Hollow then why would a Vasto Lorde be stronger then any of the current Captains. Again also to agree with Tinni Toshiro(Whom I might add is the newest & most inexperienced Captain) is where we received the info. Plus Aizen said or at least I thought he said once we gather the REST of the Vasto Lorde together, hinting that he has at least gathered some of them. Earlier in the Arrancar arc in Menos Forest there were 4 ADJUCHAS level Hollows there. Here is where Salubri is correct, not all Adjuchas are the same strength, which is why the 1 with the bone like tail was in charge, cause he was the strongest of the 4. & in ep 167 Grimmjows Fraccion were shown in there Hollow Forms to be Adjuchas. Yet Shawlong & Yylfordt were both beaten EASILY by Toshiro & Renji(& don't even get me started on Di Roy & Nakeem). I know Aizen stated that they were not only Gillians, but weak Gillians. Still, look at them we even saw Shawlong as a Gillian & when we next see him he look COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. So my opinion is that the top 4 Espada are or rather were Vasto Lorde. Minato88 18:13, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

First, I wasn't saying that the past 5 and 1/2 months of chapters was like the season eight finale of Dallas in which an entire year's worth of episodes was shown to be a dream. That would be infuriating. My comment was just a throwaway one.

As to the power of Vasto Lorde. We don't have any idea what are the conditions for their existence or what makes them stronger than a captain. We know how Gillians, and by extension Adjuchas and Vasto Lordes are formed. By hollows devouring other hollows, a gillian is formed. If one will becomes stronger than the others, it gains a unique mask. When that happens, it clears the way for its evolutionary path to Adjuchas and Vasto Lorde. We know that once a gillian becomes an adjucha, it must continue to devour hollows in order to stay an adjucha. But what about an adjucha becoming a vasto lorde? Besides devouring more hollows and being able not to be eaten, what else makes them more powerful than a captain as Hitsugaya tells Ichigo (and by extension, us)? Let's assume that the top four Espadas were vasto lordes. What is so special about them? Other than the fact that their combat abilities are extensive, what makes them stronger than a captain? And by captain, are we talking about a captain level fighter like Toshiro or Mayuri or are we talking about someone like Kyoraku or Ukitake? Because that makes a big difference. Without having a comparison point saying that so and so is a vasto lorde, we really can't say for sure how powerful they are. --Shinitenshi 19:02, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

That's a point. Toshiro said they (the VLs) are stronger than a captain. What level? His own power (ie most current captains), or one of Shunsui's calibre (on a totally different level it appears)? TomServo101 22:22, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

That is a good point we talk so much about this stuff alot of time we don't see whats in front of use. We know how vasto lorde are made but have no idea what their powers are or what they can truly bring to a fight an adjuchas can be dangerous to even a captain and if one is an arrancar we have seen the danger posed there as well. Seeing as we don't know for a fact who is one if there are any at all it would stand to reason that we have one fundamental issue. On what level is a vasto lorde? All captains by the notion of being captains are extremely elite and powerful but in truth we know that all are not created equal. Toshiro is powerful no doubt but has potential more to go with the awesome power he wields. The other captains are formidable as well in their own way but lets think for the sake of argument Yama, Ukitake, Unohana and Shunsui are on even a whole other level compared to the other captains. Also when was the last time any shinigami ran into a vasto lorde to test its strength, some captains maybe better at taking them then others and so forth theres alot to answer for so we can't really know how powerful these vasto lorde and even more so who actually was one either which way if one or a few of the espada were vasto lorde they werent as powerful as they have been hyped up by fans and if they werent then we have yet to see what power they have. So we'll wait.Salubri 22:43, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Im sure T.K will make Aizen eventually gather up Vasto Lordes and start another, Espada type squad. I mean, now with most of the Espada's gone there has to be another significantly more powerful foe to become the enemy, and Vasto Lordes are probably the most likely next step. I dont believe Aizen will die any time soon. We have to see Wonderwiess and Yammy still fight, so I dont think the Aizen fight will happen to quickly anyway. Also, that wannabe Arrancar comment just proves how badass Aizen is, he rules. KamikazeNewf 00:54, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

I would like to add one last angle to this discussion that I feel is being pathologically ignored. This applies to Barragan too if you believe that Barragan was a natural arrancar, I do not because when we saw him he was in his released state - so unless you are saying that Barragan sat around on his throne in his release state before he met Aizen he wasn't an arrancar before he met Aizen. In Starrk's flashback we got a very good look at him shortly after he turned himself into an arrancar. Apart from the hollow hole he was pretty much a human just because that mask fragment around his neck could pass for a necklace of some sort on an actual human. I say that alone, ALONE, proves that he was a vasto lord class arrancar. Why? Because in chapter 242 Ishida repeated the words of Urahara Kisuke and let's us know that "The only ones that are 100% guarantee human form are the Vasto lord" So what are the chances that a mere adjuchas is going to get 100% human form when experimenting with arrancarization while trying to escape their loneliness? I would say that probability is VERY low. So the fact that Starrk looked so human even though he did the arrancarization process himself, all alone, is proof enough that he was a vasto lord class arrancar. Also, I am not disbelieving what Hitsugaya said. I am just saying his comments needs to be taken in context. I am sure ten vasto lord class arrancar could destroy soul society because soul society doesn't have ten captains who can fight and win against ten vasto lord class arrancars. Because most captains are not equals to vasto lords, let alone Vasto lord class arrancars. However, that is not to say Yama-jii, Unohana, Kyoraku, i.e. the strongest of the captains, cannot take out vasto lord class arrancars with just their shikai and Hachi used a trick to win and didn't overpower Barragan. So if the only thing that points to them being not vasto lord is that they lost... that to me is more a sign that readers held incorrect assumptions and nothing to do with what's actually in the manga in black and white in front of us. Perhaps when these episodes get animated (finally) Ichimaru will let us know who was and who wasn't a vasto lord in the arrancar encyclopaedia section. But until proven otherwise, I maintain the body of evidence supports Starrk and Barragan being vasto lord and Hitsugaya's comments do not contradict that when taken in proper context. Tinni 01:24, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Tinni, Stark does appear to have a lot of the characteristics of a Vasto Lorde. I dont believe Stark is dead either, Im sure he will realize his mistake in joining Aizen and that Aizen didnt care for the only people strong enough to be around him (Stark). Maybe what we saw that Stark and Barragan were capable of could be a hint of the powers of the Vasto Lordes. KamikazeNewf 01:57, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone else think Wonderweiss has started to look kind of crazy. I mean when we first saw him he just seem to be out of it, maybe fighting a bit but then totally drifting off, but this time was different. He seem to be almost drooling and just going crazy with beating the crap out of the vizard girl. Almost like a playful dog. Maybe something new is going on with him or the Aizen Team did something to him.


 * Well Tosen said Wonderweiss was "pure" but that Tosen didn't know which direction the "purity" went. Ever since he turned up in Fake Karakura it seems to indicate that he's pure evil. That expression on his face when he lead Fura out... and the expression on his face as he was pounding on Mashiro... they will haunt me for sometime to come! I am seriously worried about Kensei and Mashiro. Actually, right now I am seriously worried about everyone in the Gotei 13 and the Vizard crew. :( Tinni 02:43, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Ahaha while I understand your worry, I find it amusing considering that Wonderweiss is this skinny little kid and Kensei is this tanky beast of a captain with a sickass combat knife. I know size and appearance means very little in the Bleach universe but nonetheless, it's one of the more ridiculous looking matchups i've ever seen... BollyW 03:41, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

The only thing to prove that they aren't vasto lorde isn't the fact that they lost its the fact that you can't know that they are for sure. One its quite possible that Barragan was sitting around in released form, whose to say that is not something that they can do, secondly his appearance is the same current time and flashback as well as him wielding the weapon he uses in his released form. Starrk on the other hand was obviously already an arrancar as well. My basic point is you dont know what they previously looked like as hollows, to be vasto lorde they would have had to been the same size as humans. We can make the assumption but thats all that is we dont know what they look like truly or what powers they possess. Also what Ishida said was that a vasto lorde are guaranteed a 100% human form over the adjuhcas and gillians when they become arrancar. The problem with using that argument to qualify espada for being vasto lorde is that the vast majority of espada have humanoid appearance as opposed to the arrancar he and chad were fighting at the time, thus giving the reason for why he brought up the conversation. Im just not understanding why people have such an issue with this either they werent vasto lorde and oh well or they were and oh well whichever way i is their dead it kind of doesn't matter anymore so ill just leave you guys to it, this conversation on whose what is never ending.Salubri 04:26, October 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * My point from that start was that just dismissing them as not vasto lord may just be more gross a speculation than as assuming that they are vasto lord. In the opening post you made the point "1> The top Espada are in fact no more then extremely power adjhucas made even more powerful by shinigamification". I am saying you can't say that for certain and in fact when we are pitying the two speculations, and both them being Vasto lord and not being Vasto lord are speculation, against each other the weight of evidence supports them being Vasto lord. But it is just speculation either way and that has to be kept in perspective. Tinni 05:09, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

I also said before writing it that it was confirmation by no means. I was stating my point of view on the subject im not in favor of that form of thought and the vast majority of support for them being vasto lorde is largely fan based considering we virtually know little to nothing about the vasto lorde. My point was there is no evidence of such a thing besides what we decide to believe we have yet to see a vasto lorde hollow in general but were supposed to have seen vasto lorde arrancar. i personally cant buy that explanation without more to go on besides that they look humanoid and are powerful. This is the main reasons i hate talking about vasto lorde because people who are for the argument talk to death with nothing but the most minimal of information and this conversation has been had like 100 times over. Im not of the mindset that there is more proof to prove them vasto lorde as i havent seen one argument that couldnt just as simply used to confirm them not being and as i stated before even if they were it obviously doesnt matter but i really dont see aizen being more powerful then a vasto lorde thats not at all progressive for the continuation of the story if he isnt going to be defeated ever.Salubri 07:05, October 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * I appreciate where you are coming from but neither of those arguments hold water. Firstly, while we have not see a Vasto Lord we know for certain that we have seen one Vasto Lord arrancar: Wonderweiss. We saw him get made and were given a very clear view of his bandaged up body just prior to his arrancarisation . If THAT doesn't fit the description of a vasto lord down to a tee I don't know what does. So yes, I can appreciate it being hard to swallow that we jumped straight into Vasto lord class arrancar without seeing a vasto lord but if you think about it, we met adjuchas class arrancar before we saw adjuchas too! In the manga we didn't see adjuchas till Grimmjow's flash back and in the anime we first saw adjuchas in the forest of menos filler episodes. So... that doesn't mean anything.
 * Secondly, tyranny 101 lesson one: never have a subordinate that you cannot defeat. This is just common sense. Aizen's subordinates are not 100% loyal to him. Some, like Barragan, actively hated him and only followed him because they couldn't defeat him. So I personally cannot see Aizen getting anyone who was more powerful then him. More importantly, in the wonderweiss creation chapter Aizen said he has higher then captain level reiatsu . Making him, based on all we do know about Vastol lords, stronger then a Vasto lord. So... I can understand what you are getting at but all manga based evidence says that yes Aizen is in fact stronger then a vasto lord, as well as vasto lord class arrancar. In addition, the common sense rules of dictatorships says that Aizen would not risk getting subordinates that are stronger then him/he could not one-shot should they step out of line. As such, I maintain that we have seen Vasto lord class arrancar and Aizen is in fact stronger then a Vasto lord and stronger then a Vasto lord class arrancar. Tinni 09:13, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

-I was stating my point of view on the subject im not in favor of that form of thought and the vast majority of support for them being vasto lorde is largely fan based considering we virtually know little to nothing about the vasto lorde- But *everything* we do know about Vasto Lorde does apply to the top Espada. They are sought by Aizen, stronger than captains, few in number, humanoid. When a description fits 100%, it is at the least highly likely.

-but i really dont see aizen being more powerful then a vasto lorde thats not at all progressive for the continuation of the story if he isnt going to be defeated ever- That's just your view to be fair, that doesn't come from the description of Vasto Lorde, which is what we have to base judgements on. It's not at all unlikely that Aizen is going to be the "final boss" too and that there won't be VLs picking up for him.

Also don't forget, Adjuchas range from Numenos to Neliel. Captains from Mayuri to Yamamoto. Gillians from the faceless one to Aaroniero. Vasto Lorde may have *just as wide a range*. Even if you think we're going to see some uber-powerful VLs down the road, that doesn't prevent the top 3 Espada from being ones as well in the slightest.ZeroSD 09:22, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Humm thats probably why i said it was my point of view so why exactly did you feel you had to respond to it i wonder. Once again pointless to have even said anything. But Tinni i was done with this conversation but your way off base on this one. Aizen's profile says no such thing and indicates no such thing, im surprised cause i know you from your edits dont believe in such things, and yet your saying them now. You would have to have information none of us know to even know if their are any vasto lorde or vasto lorde arrancar and even more then that you would have to know for a fact that Aizen more powerful then one simply stating that he has more power then a vasto lorde because he has twice the reiatsu of a normal captain is not a argument you can make cause you dont know that he is the only one who can make that claim. All that speculative info was removed from from his page long ago, all the stuff that would insinuate that he had reached his peak as a shinigami cause he never says that in reference to himself and in fact all we know of him is what we have seen which is little in the way of combat ability in comparison to the other captains with only his strength standing out. So no all manga does not suggest that unless we have a stated vasto lorde and something proving for a fact that he is more powerful then one other then speculation because he is powerful enough to kill his subordinates who we dont have confirmation on what they are. But thanks for listing that like its a fact cause im sure somebody will put it up on a article making more unnecessary work to revert. Besides that im done with the conversation.Salubri 14:48, October 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, I'll revert on-sight any and all such speculative edits. In fact, all I seem to be doing recently is checking-up on peoples edits and reverting them *sigh*. Anyway, I am sure it'll come-out in the upcoming chapters how powerful Aizen actually is. So all we have to do is wait a few weeks. Tinni 16:25, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Okay is no one on this page even paying attention to the story. I'm not going to reiterate what I have said about the Adjuchas or Vasto Lorde instead i'm going to point out actual episodes. Ep 122, Aizen states he wants to gather the rest of the Vasto Lordes. Ep 138 Wonderweiss was seen in human & has captain level spiritual pressure as confirmed by the department of research & development. He was human shaped & sized with captain level or above amounts of spiritual pressure. IF THAT ISN'T A VASTO LORDES THEN WHAT IS? Same ep Aizen states that if the Hogyoku is touched by a Shinigami who has TWICE THE AMOUNT OF SPIRIT ENERGY OF A NORMAL CAPTAIN then it is temporarily awakened. Ep 145 Iceringer states that Aizen FEARS NOTHING & thats why the Arrancar follow him. All of this points to what User:Tinni & I have been saying & if none of what I have said or the FACTS that we do know doesn't even slightly sway your minds then I just don't know what else to say.
 * This is also when I would like to point out that Love & Rose not only played an important role in Starrk's defeat, but played a bigger role the Ukitake. Here's how; Starrk was concentrated on them when Shunsui stabbed him in the back from the shadows. Minato88 16:54, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

-Humm thats probably why i said it was my point of view so why exactly did you feel you had to respond to it i wonder.-

You brought it up in a discussion forum about such topics? *Shrugs* That's what forums are for. Your brought up your speculation, I pointed out the data fits with them being VLs.

- You would have to have information none of us know to even know if their are any vasto lorde or vasto lorde arrancar and even more then that you would have to know for a fact that Aizen more powerful then one simply stating that he has more power then a vasto lorde because he has twice the reiatsu of a normal captain is not a argument you can make cause you dont know that he is the only one who can make that claim.-

You're making a error in your argument here. You're saying "They can't be Vasto Lorde because we don't know Aizen is more powerful than a Vasto Lorde". But the statements of power don't say that's a case, so there is no contradiction in saying that his statement doesn't indicate they aren't Vasto Lorde.

All I'm saying is that the evidence is still perfectly in line with all stated facts of the Vasto Lorde. The top Espada are observed to be as powerful as we know Vasto Lorde to be and Aizens statement does not go against it.

-So no all manga does not suggest that unless we have a stated vasto lorde and something proving for a fact that he is more powerful then one other then speculation because he is powerful enough to kill his subordinates who we dont have confirmation on what they are.-

The manga suggests it plenty, it just doesn't outright state it.

If you don't want the points in it's favor from being brought up, might I suggest not bringing it up? Everyone time you or someone else says 'the top Espada are adjuchas' or 'the top Espada are not Vasto Lorde' like the first post, someone's going to respond with the counter-arguments.

-But thanks for listing that like its a fact cause im sure somebody will put it up on a article making more unnecessary work to revert. -

Hey, it's the Watercooler, we're allowed to talk :) Chill on bringing it up so much and then it won't come up as much. ZeroSD 07:43, October 4, 2009 (UTC)