User talk:Vraieesprit

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Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Yyp (Talk) 12:41, 8 June 2012

Hello
Hi I'm Salubri an Admin here at the Bleach Wiki. If the Japanese Language is your passion or area of interest then try out the Bleach Wiki:Translation Corner. We are always looking for capable and skilled translators currently only Adam Restling is are main go to guy (he isn't always available). We basically defer to him on all official translation for the site. We also predominately go by true Japanese translation as opposed to what Viz Media (as they are usually heavily Americanized) or the questionable fan translations done in scans (as they are usually rushed).--

Hiya - I'd like to do that but when I looked at the Translation page it didn't seem like new applications were being considered! I spend a lot of time correcting/retranslating/transliterating stuff from Bleach on forums and stuff, so I'd like to help out. Should I just leave a message with the person you mentioned??Vraieesprit (talk) 14:54, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

Actually the admittance to the associate groups are open and free assuming the person is capable of doing the edits right. Just remember usually we go through some discussion if there is a serious edit involved. --

Hrm. Then how do I go about being included? Or am I now? I know some sites have translation tests before they let people translate for them - I've done that before on song lyric sites so wasn't sure if this was the same here...And sure. Some translations are ambiguous anyway o.O nature of the language...Vraieesprit (talk) 15:26, June 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * No we have nothing like that we can usually tell when someone doesnt really have any actual knowledge on the subject and are just using google translator or something. Basically all you have to do is add your name to the list on the translator page. --

Ok, have done so - thanks! Vraieesprit (talk) 15:43, June 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * There are some unanswered questions relating to the names and release names of three zanpakuto, maybe u can help in that regard. Also remember to read of the translation corner page to see whats required and expected. Thanks.--

I will do so. As regards the three zans, they seem to have been translated (although I don't think the one of them means bamboo flute, I'm not sure how to render it into acceptably phrased English for a sword name, so I left it alone. The others look okay to me.Vraieesprit (talk) 18:03, June 8, 2012 (UTC)

Sasakibe's Bankai
I've found what I believe to be some information that might influence how Sasakibe's Bankai has been translated, but as I have no knowledge of Japanese and the matter is already considered closed, I was wondering if you could help to check if what I've found is actually beneficial.

Checking with Tangorin, "離宮" can be translated as "villa (imperial)", so when I then searched for the term "imperial villa", I came across and. Both are imperial residences that are in fact separate from the Imperial Palace, with "離宮" used to signify such places rather than a shrine (as is implied by the current translation), which I believe is explained in greater detail here. Hopefully this information proves useful, but I'm sorry if it turns out that I've bothered you unnecessarily. Blackstar1 (talk) 20:54, August 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * Stuff like this is never unnecessary to me, don't worry ;) The thing is that kanji, Miya, has a lot of different definitions, for example, one online dictionary definition:


 * 宮

[音] キュウ グウ ク クウ (On-yomi reading: Kyuu, Guu, Ku, Kuu) [訓] みや  (Kun-yomi reading: Miya) [名] ぐ み (Name use reading) Gu, Mi     [英] (English):  Shinto shrine; constellations; palace; princess


 * Rikyuu 離宮 literally means "separated from the royal palace" from which probably comes the translation "imperial villa."
 * Soo...this is really a decision for site admin to make over what they feel is most logical for the page. I don't disagree with you that a "rikyuu" is commonly used as "imperial villa" in English translation.


 * The biggest trouble is that the zanpakutou release itself is comprised of six characters without any spacing in the middle. Scanlators have separated it into what they feel is logical "Koukou Gonryou Rikyuu" but those are not spaces put in by Kubo. Though rikyuu is a compound on its own merit, we cannot be absolutely certain that Kubo means us to divide the word here and consider it such within the Bankai release. For example, Kou (yellow) and Kou (glittering) are two separate characters denoting two separate elements of the release and cannot be translated as one word together. The same applies for "Gon" and "Ryou" which are given as Solemn and Spirit respectively. I think this is part of the problem with translating this release - we can't be sure where to put in the divides for the last two characters. It may be Imperial Villa, but it may be "Separate" and "Shrine" or "Palace" and we just don't know. Does that help or have I made it worse? Vraieesprit (talk) 21:37, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, you've helped greatly and don't worry, I've spoken with enough translators to understand that what they do isn't an exact science. However, I would like to ask that if your translation accounts for each kanji individually, shouldn’t a term for "離" also be included (e.g. separate(d)/detach(ed))? If so, maybe "Glittering Yellow Detached Palace of the Solemn Spirit" would be more appropriate. While the current translation is more concise, this one accounts for all kanji and the possibility that rikyuu may be a compound here, well if Wikipedia is to be believed on how such Villas are alternatively referred to in English. Blackstar1 (talk) 22:59, August 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * I can't argue with that. It's hard to know when to draw a line between aesthetic and exactness, though. These techniques aren't created with the intention of being rendered in another language and really, a lot of them (this one included) either don't make sense or are ambiguous if transferred literally into English. Senbonzakura is a good example - the second character is a counter, which is a counter for blades and a counter for the stems of flowers. So should it be 1000 Cherry Blossoms or 1000 Blades of the Cherry Blossom? Personally I favour the latter, BUT...that doesn't make the former incorrect. Vraieesprit (talk) 23:26, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Definitely not an exact science ;). Anyway, I won't pursue this any further given my non-existent Japanese knowledge, so I'll defer to you and whatever decision you ultimately make. Thanks for all your help, it was much appreciated. Blackstar1 (talk) 23:35, August 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's really up to me, but the admins to make a final decision on the translation they use. As far as I'm concerned Sasakibe's name is written the wrong way around in the Western version (and probably Genryuusai's as well) but they didn't want to change it so I have to bow to their greater authority.


 * I would make your point in the Sasakibe or translation corner thread, since the discussion doesn't seem to have been formally closed as far as I can see? You are not wrong, and my suggestion - which was only a suggestion - to keep with the shrine from someone else's translation was really for alliterative purposes (since the kanji also has that meaning). If it were me, I wouldn't be translating "Gon" as solemn, but that's an entirely different argument since Gonryoumaru is already Wiki'd as Solemn Spirit. I think the release name could equally mean Imperial Villa or Separated Palace, depending on how you choose to translate it - as with most of these sword techniques, there are multiple versions, all of which can be considered correct.Vraieesprit (talk) 09:58, September 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry about my ignorances on some of these factors. I've made what should be all the necessary corrections of my errors on the Sasakibe talk page, including explaining why I failed to find the raw data for as long as I did (the link pic failed, and going to the raw main page, you have to click the thumbnail of what looks like a completely different page to get the page in question, which I hadn't expected I'd need to do), so I hope you aren't too mad at me. :) Adam Restling (talk) 10:16, September 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Not mad at all, LOL ;) Just I try to keep my 'translationish' posts as much on topic as possible, so probably come across more official and impersonal than I really am xD. Don't want to be told off for being OT since I have a habit of rambling! The Mangahead page usually updates with the raw, tho you are right that the thumbnails for 504 are wrong. I have to click through each time to find it XD. I also agree with you about "stern" rather than "solemn" for "gon" but the trouble is Wiki already has "Solemn Spirit" for Gonryoumaru and I didn't want to upset the applecart by questioning this as well. You really do have to squint for the "go" but I'm pretty sure it is there. Easy to see how the scanlators missed it though.Vraieesprit (talk) 12:22, September 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok let me point out two things here in relation to talks regarding translation in general and specifically on chojiro's page, one that in the event of final translations to be added to an article the admin determine from trusted translators what will be on the site as the final translation. Secondly Adam is that trusted source. He has done great work for the site and its not appreciated to come at him with unnecessary attitude especially over something he wasnt aware of. Simply stating he may have missed something is one thing, but telling him with added attitude that he was wrong as if he should have known the character was wrong with the information he was presented makes no sense. He's nice enough to allow the attitude I on the other hand am not overlooking it, considering he has done more for this site id expect more respect to come his way as he has earned it. If your intention was not to come off in a negative way then you didnt succeed in that regard. --


 * I'm sorry, [***edit for confidentiality***], and sometimes it means I make statements more bluntly than they're meant to be taken. If I said something I shouldn't, then I apologise - I was just adding my contribution to the conversation because I thought we were aiming for accuracy. O.O. In future I won't post anything at all o.O. Vraieesprit (talk) 13:45, September 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Its not about you not posting anything the fact is that Adam is the lead on translation he doesnt need to be kept in check when it comes to translation we as a site commonly follow him. Simply stating that he may have gotten something mixed up and showing him what it is will be far better then seemingly getting mad at him or whatever. Recall your points where correct it was simply how you were presenting them that was the only thing at issue. Hopefully this is a isolated non-issue and you will continue to contribute on the site.--


 * Well, in case it's in doubt, I wasn't mad at anyone. I was trying to avoid my usual habit of rambling and going off topic by citing simply what we knew. I've no disrespect to Adam or anyone else - its just his source in this case was out of date and that was my real message. If I continue to contribute, am I going to be hauled up by mods every time I post something that's a correction to someone else? Because I can't guarantee I'll know when I'm being too blunt, but it's upsetting getting a message accusing you of being nasty when you'd only been trying to help.Vraieesprit (talk) 14:33, September 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Only stating there are better ways to present your point, as we encourage being accurate and no you wont get in trouble all the time. we just have to be able to get along you know, if you happen to come off a certain way and as you have explained it i can understand you meant no harm and even stated as much in your response. Its just that we have had issues with users with attitude problems who do nothing but attack and belittle others and we are attempting to curb it and i brought this issue up to you because i dont want you caught up into it seeing is that is not your intention.--


 * All right, thank you for the clarification. Just your original post here upset me because I really didn't mean any harm...I'll try and be more careful in the way I post and hope for the best from now on :) Vraieesprit (talk) 14:46, September 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I didn't mean to get you into any trouble. I think I did mistake your tone, even if I joked about doing so, because I was afraid it seemed like I got to automatically overrule (and so ignore) you. I'm glad you and Blackstar, as well as others like you, can help out when things are mistaken/based on erroneous data. :)


 * I told Salubri much the same, and put in about how "solemn" should be changed to "stern", so we'll see how it goes; that's the more correct, after all.


 * As for gonryou being an archaic synonym for ikazuchi "thunder", it would prob. be good and interesting to include something about it, trivia-like, if possible. It went long-unrealized by me but, then, archaic is easy to miss, esp. when dealing with a foreign language like Japanese. I don't think it need effect the translation "stern spirit" itself, as this is what it means--just as we could keep a translation of, say, kaminari as "god-cry"--as long as we put a note that it's "used as a poetic kenning for 'thunder' " or the like.


 * One last thing: I find it best to post replies to things on your own talk page not as posts on that same page beneath them, but as posts on the talk page of the person you're replying to, like "answers"; I had to come here to your talk, for example, to find that you'd replied to me since, without it being posted on my own talk, there was no notification of a new message. :) Adam Restling (talk) 00:13, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Re; So, like this..? And Sasakibe's name, too.
Yep, you've got it; I was notified this time that you'd left me this new message. :)

When I first started helping out on the Wiki, I was rewarded, soon, with a rep as a pretty good source of (simpler) translations, so many have a lot of trust in me. But, as I admit often, I'm at best a kind of advanced novice, though I have some knowledge in a plethora of subjects that helps me out, too. I'm always glad of help and correction when I really need it, so I'm grateful to you and the others who give it, and don't take it as a kind of "affront", though I can mistake tones sometimes. :)

I just feared you'd gotten the impression that I was too vain and had simply ignored all your corrections. It's good to clear the air (of the Net?! XD).

Yes, when you start adding in extra names, "middle" names, and titles into the Japanese name order, it all becomes really confounding.

You're correct that older names--the one most salient in my mind is for Seimei Abeno (Abeno Seimei)--generally used elements + the genitive particle no etc., a practice actually quite like to that of German von ~ and others.

To treat with Sasakibe: since he was previously known as merely "Chōjirō Sasakibe" (Japanese order: Sasakibe Chōjirō), it seems intended that this is his name. The addition of Tadaoki would seem to mean this is some kind of "middle" name (if a seemingly odd thing in Japanese), with the Japanese word order, Sasakibe Chōjirō Tadaoki coincidentally seeming the same, or quite similar, to a kind of English phonebook order: "Sasakibe, Chōjirō T(adaoki)". The situation with Ōmaeda is (intentionally by Kubo) much worse XD.

With Yamamoto: these latest chapters seem to confirm what has long been held true that Genryūsai is a title of his, with his name proper being (in Western order) "Shigekuni Yamamoto". As to why this title seems to displace his first name (in Japanese order), giving Yamamoto Genryūsai Shigekuni instead of *Yamamoto Shigekuni Genryūsai is confusing--perhaps titles are, thus, treated different from "middle names". Someone with a far greater grasp of rare or archaic Japanese nomenclature than I is prob. required for a surer delineation.

But, for what I *think* I know (XD) as set out above, I think it should be kept as (in Western order):

Chōjirō Tadaoki Sasakibe

and

Genryūsai Shigekuni Yamamoto (kind of an elision of "The Genryuusai, Shigekuni Yamamoto")

at least until some major correction-requiring revelation should appear. Adam Restling (talk) 02:22, September 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't agree that Tadaoki is definitely his given name, and Choujirou the honorific "nickname", in spite of your convincing evidence, although I predicate this mainly on only two points: a) Choujirou has been given as the only candidate for his given name for so long (including in databooks), and is the most common form of address for him by Yamamoto--although admittedly in a different mode than his own address of Yamamoto as "Genryuusai"; b) given names in the same vein as Choujirou, with sequence-element + -rou "man" for "son" etc. are not uncommon today (e.g. this seems to be the case for Ichirou, Saburou, Shinichirou etc.), if maybe more archaic-seeming.


 * Your degrees, esp. in classical Japanese, clearly mean you have richer knowledge and insight into this than do I, but until Kubo or a databook comes out that changes previous statements that his name is "CHOUJIROU SASAKIBE" or "SASAKIBE CHOUJIROU", it's prob. best to err on the side of hitherto precedent. :)


 * As for Yamamoto, we have his first name and his last name, so Genryuusai is, as you've said, some kind of nickname or (before these recent chapters seemed to suggest nickname) a title. Ch. 504 shows us that younger Yamamoto was someone of renown in certain "Genryuu" organizations, although there ryuu was spelled with "current" instead of '"willow". This is what led me to suggest rendering it as  Genryuusai Shigekuni Yamamoto rather than Shigekuni Genryuusai Yamamoto or Shigekuni Yamamoto Genryuusai , even as I would write Lord Aizen rather than Aizen-lord (the latter closer to Japanese-order Aizensama).


 * But, just to make sure I'm getting you clear in this case, would you rather it be Shigekuni Genryuusai Yamamoto, not unlike how we would write, say, Michael 'Mick' Jagger? I'd still prefer the more "august" (? at least to me)-seeming order of Genryuusai first, because it's come to be treated almost as an (honorific) title, but I can't remember if the databooks' romanizations made this any clearer, either. Adam Restling (talk) 01:32, September 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Here's the thing, we really dont do the nickname thing at most we acknowledge that someone has one and then use it in the plot section or something to shorten the name at most as we do with Chad and Rose. Thus following what you said would dictate we remove Genryusai all together. Therefore we arent likely to do it and i dont see us doing that. Especially because we would literally have to change every use of the name around the entire site, to accommodate what no printed form of the name will back up. Also that would be going back to what the original look of the name was which we didnt agree with. Now changing Chojiro's name so that its similar to Yama's would be more likely and far easier. We consider the way Yama does it as a honorific and thats largely how Kubo has presented it (as a part of his name). while old style would dictate a certain way no one adds a nickname in with the actual name (especially without replacing a part of the actual name) if it was meant to be used as a nickname unless your a professional wrestler or boxer. Recent Realizations of where the name came about doesnt change that for us. His has been done like this for years by Kubo also as stated we knew Genryusai was not his first name for quite some years as well. We can acknowledge your point in a trivia section, explaining what the name is. I really should have informed you a while ago that the naming issue in regards to yama is not really up for discussion regardless, as we knew a majority of your points for some time and we didnt agree that it warranted the use of the name in that way far before you brought it up. --

Re: 508 and Yama :)
I left my response under your post in that topic on the corner. :) Adam Restling (talk) 21:38, September 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * I put up my comments, but I don't really see the trouble :). I intended "ranks" to be understood in the sense of "arranged group(s) of soldiers", not just "certain levels in the hierarchy of a group". Do you know that meaning for the word ranks? Adam Restling (talk) 23:23, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

Conversations
The 3rd Guideline of the Translation Corner page states "This is not a conversation page. It is a simple question and answer page for translation. All conversations should be held on a particular user talk page or the talk page of this page". What took place between you and Adam should have taken place on a talk page. Instead it cluttered the page with a long conversation. In the future please keep to the talk pages for conversations.--

Re: Heya :)
Your last query? If you refer to the last paragraph in the "Yamamoto Question 3" section, my earlier posts (assuming they're still there) should hold most of the answers: fire and flame are the same thing, so I just chose the one that sounded better to me :). Putting in something about the fact that the south could be associated (in Eastern thinking) with Zhuque/Suzaku may be interesting trivia, but we shouldn't go beyond that: I don't think the corpses are having a very good "resurrection" XD, and every direction of Genryuusai's Bankai involves flame, so there's not much to distinguish.

I would keep garb, since that's a general (if archaic/rare) term for "(a kind of) clothing", whereas robe is much more narrow, referring to a specific -styled type of clothing. While words like cloak and vestment(s) can *sort of* be taken up for general or specific usage, robe is more particular. Adam Restling (talk) 20:22, September 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * But 衣 really means robes, or the layers of a kimono. In professional translations (ie published books) it is translated that way. Clothing is a general translation for the character, but its because all clothing before the Meiji was essentially robe-ish. Hence the kanji has widened in its meaning.
 * I also am surprised you just ignored my previous message, and I was a bit hurt by your questioning if I understood 'ranks'. I'm wondering if I've done something terrible to offend you somehow...(which sometimes I do, because I'm tactless)Vraieesprit (talk) 21:16, September 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * You said it yourself that 衣 means "clothes, garb", and that includes its oldest derivation (as e, i at least) in Han Chinese ˀɨi; it's come to include, by semantic extension, the additional meaning "robe(s)" the same way that Latin-derived vestments has from original Latin vestis "garment". I chose "garb" because a) it's the (most) original meaning, and b) it nicely covers all possible, more narrow meanings, without choosing (and so being "beholden to") a single one. We could just as well call the gokui a "mantel" or "cloak", but those choices could be dicier too, for the same reason.


 * Which message did I ignore? If you mean the one I thought you meant (and that I mentioned)--the last query in the "Yamamoto Question 3" section--I found it difficult to go on much more, being as I answered most of why I thought what I did; and I wasn't sure if you wanted to pursue it further. If there's anything I'm still not clear on, let me know, and I'll try to clarify. :)


 * I often use rarer meanings in my translations, so I fear that, sometimes, people might mistake my meaning, or think I erred with it. So I feared with my use of "ranks": that you might think I was using the wrong word, and was ignorant of the meaning of the Kanji I was trying to translate etc., so that's why I checked to see if you knew this (possibly rarer) meaning for "ranks", the one I was using it with in mind. I didn't mean to offend you. :)


 * It's true (and I constantly try to remind people of the fact) that I am little more than, perhaps, an "advanced novice" when it comes to translations (being dwarfed in fluency and expertise by many others), and I try, also, to be courteous to others and their queries. When I'm sure of what I believe (as here)--that is, that at least, with what I'm saying, I don't err--I'll generally be much more certain in my defense of what I'm saying; but I don't want to hurt others, unless they be strident (and that almost never happens).


 * You aren't strident; but forgive if sometimes I express confusion of how to proceed, and of why you still disagree, when I think I've explained my choices pretty thoroughly. :) Adam Restling (talk) 22:32, September 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, I think it makes most sense to translate as true to the original meaning as possible first, but keep an eye to context where seems appropriate (as with gaki as "brat[s]" rather than its original meaning "starved wraith" etc.). I see no more reason that -i here has to be rendered "robe(s)" than I do that boushi in Urahara's nickname Getaboushisan has to be rendered as specific "bucket hat" (because that's the kind he wears) instead of merely more lit. "hat" (general).


 * Of course I didn't forget your jin picture :); but maybe you can explain to me why you go to such lengths in preferring the translation "encampment" for it, when the corpses--and, indeed, the soldiers in your pic--are advancing, not camping (this latter being a more narrow meaning)?


 * See, here's another point where I'm confused: "fire" is "flame", and vice-versa. There's no difference in the meanings of these respective words. I could understand you objecting if I translated ka | hi as "inferno", since that implies a great fire, and so would be better rendered by en | honoo, homura. However, as it stands, I can't conceive of your objection to "flame", since "fire" and "flame" are synonymous. Can you explain to me why you disagree with that? :)


 * When I say "advanced novice", it's to indicate that I'm an amateur who covers up his torpor and lapses (XD) with an attention to detail and, hopefully, an ability to both research the hell out of (some) things and possess a vocabulary to help "pretty"fy--and enhance in esthetic--my choices. Thanks to some good books and a long (if gap-filled) study of various aspects of etymology, esp. that of Japanese and Sino-Japanese, I can offer a decent amount in those respects; however, I can still miss lots of references, such as I did with the fact that gonryou in Sasakibe's Zanpakutou is sometimes used to signify, also, "thunderbolt".


 * I can only hope in such cases that those more learned in or privy to that esoterica will bail me out and elucidate me :). Adam Restling (talk) 00:25, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

For "flame", see here, esp. definition 2, The condition of active, blazing combustion: burst into flame. "Blazing combustion" is fire, and so flame and fire are the same thing; it's just the former is from Italic (Latin flamma) and the other Germanic (Old English fȳr). To be honest, I've never heard of someone claiming that flame is "only one component" of fire.

"Also, if they were the exact same thing and synonymous, there wouldn't be two separate words for them in both English and in Japanese."

This is an erroneous statement, as poetry and thesauri prove that their are many words that mean the same (or nearly the same) thing in, say, English: ebon (deriving from ebony) and piceous, among others, are used for black. And Japanese does have two words for "fire, flame", the Sino-Japanese ka and the native Japanese hi; even honoo is sometimes used for it, rather than a larger blaze.

For '"ranks", see here, particularly definitions 3b-4: ranks The armed forces; ranks Personnel, especially enlisted military personnel; ranks A body of people classed together; numbers: joined the ranks of the unemployed. So rank(s) doesn't require a perfectly-ordered group.

The mere fact that the jin is sortieing, not lying encamped, makes encampment the less tenable translation. Sortieing doesn't = (en)camping.

"Garb: Clothes". There you go; whether it's used "especially" of this or that does not change the very fact that "garb/clothing/attire" is the most appropriate meaning. Cf. my comments about boushi as "hat" (in general) rather than "some specific kind of hat". Adam Restling (talk) 01:57, September 27, 2012 (UTC)