Forum:Gin's Status ?

The latest Chapter was released last night by Mangastream. So I am going to assume that this is not a Spoiler. As of yesterday's chapter Gin is found to be dying and he is not dead. I was just wondering if someone could change his status from Deceased to Incapacitated? Bharatram1 26th August 2010 02:29 (UTC)

Curious about this as well, if not that then Unknown for the moment...he's kind of at a Grimmjow state but X5. He certainly remarked on Ichigo in his head...and Ichigo's way of looking at him made me wonder...wonder about...life, and...butterflies...not Aizenflies though! I'd squash them in an instant. I think Gin should be Incapped or Unknown, while I was all for his deceased last week this chapter has made him more out to still be in the process of...dying (but not dead, kind of like Grimmjow was dying but never really was...dead). TVthePunisher (talk) 02:34, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

We are not getting into this again. I do not know the stance of the admins but I think it was clearly shown that he has now died. He passed the torch to Ichigo and with that, his life ended. The admins will decided what to do but we are not getting into the same long fight that happened with Rangiku. So leave it to them--God (Pray)  02:35, August 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I certainly have no intention of fighting over this. As stated in my blog, it's up to the top dogs! Just getting my opinion out there after all =D guys, do as you please...won't bother me in the slightest. Jeez...I must be high or something...? TVthePunisher (talk) 02:37, August 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not you Im worried about. Bhatram1 made pretty much the same topic a few weeks ago about Rangiku and after we told them to drop it because it was decided to list her as deceased until proven otherwise, they continued to fight even with the admins.--God (Pray)  02:40, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

I agree Gin's page is locked for a reason, so that we do not have a repeat of the Matsumoto incident. But, I think Gin is dead now, he had his spike spegal moment, when he said I can leave it to you now, even if he isn't dead yet, I don't think he will be fighting anytime soon. --Lemursrule (talk) 02:42, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Gin's last act this chapter was raising his arm towards the sky - we don't get anything else after that. Of course, he wouldn't be able to do that if he were dead, and I doubt that a person would die with their arm just pointing in the air; it would drop back down. It's hard to say, but we can't conclusively say that Gin is dead quite yet. Following the same policy, he doesn't look explicitly dead, so he must be incapacitated at the moment. Mohrpheus (talk) 02:42, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Morpheus if you analyse carefully that hand's not Gin, its Aizen trying to illustrate something I know everything moment to Ichigo, anyway don't wanna to get into this Gin dies/not yet thingy its better we all let the matter rest for now and brace for Aizen vs Ichigo Soulreaper1234 (talk) 03:34, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Huh, looks like you're right. I'm not sure, the angle and shading are a bit weird, but I guess it does make sense. Weird that they'd zoom in on his arm like that though. Mohrpheus (talk) 03:37, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

It is the same case as Grimmjow, Last time I saw him he was still alive, I know if he is dead or not and no one has explicitly said he is dead so better to say Unknown rather than Dead. Bharatram1 26th August 2010 02:47 (UTC)


 * While that's how I feel regarding it, I wouldn't put up a fight with anybody over it. Now if he sat up or something then yeah...the man's clearly still kicking, but as far as the other evidence that is compiled, it is up to the admins to decide if A.) He should be Deceased or B.) He should be Incapped or Unknown. Just sit back and wait like the rest of the Gin fans to see if he'll make a comeback (like I'm doing with Grimmjow), he was created by Kubo and can die by Kubo...he makes the final shot. (Jeez this is the THIRD time I've forgot to use the tillys as I call em...good thing I catch it each time) TVthePunisher (talk) 02:58, August 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I will admit that after the recent chapter, Gin does fall into the "Grimmjow" category and per the "Grimmjow test", which is the same test that was applied to Tesla, he should be listed as unknown. Especially since the whole arm thing is ambiguous at best. Gin doesn't have the strength to lift his arm and Aizen' does have his arm extended in the very next panel. So the likely hood is that it is Aizen's arm and Kubo just drew it rather badly so that people are getting thrown-off thinking that it might be Gin's and that's Gin's last act. Anyway, I am not saying that Gin is going to live through this. I stand by my comment about Gin's future in the series being doubtful because of his non-antagonist and non-protagonist status. However, it is true that by the precedent set by Grimmjow and Tesla, we should probably list it as unknown. Tinni   (Talk)  15:37, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Had to admit what Tinni said make sense, we probably should all agreed the status of Gin as of now as Unknown, anyway just to comment on Kubo's way of illustration of the way he handles Gin's dying I mean he probably done this way lot better than when he handles Grimmjow, where in this case its Kenpachi vs Nnoitra at that time (it was so jaw-dropping because we are seeing Kenpachi in action LOL), I completely forgotten what happen to the Pantera Guy until someone brought it up, then it was the same like it was with Kensei and then Ukitake, plus all the others who battled against/with/for Aizen (Gotei 13 Captains, Vizards, Espadas) at least in Gin's case he opened his eyes and tries to see what became of Ichigo and then saying something in his head that he does not have to do anything and will leave it all to Ichigo then fade away. Maybe the problems with Kubo is or are he tries to tell the story very fast he forgot the side characters and become so messed up in his head or whatever because as evidence from a few of his interviews that he does not have much time or have enough page a week. This however, just to deflect our attention from Gin, yes it was the new Ichigo, the AizenShut facepalm/chokeslam techniques and then we'd probably would not have to talk about Gin anymore cum next week, it is all Ichigo vs Aizen.Soulreaper1234 (talk) 05:00, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Tinni, I checked Gin's page to day and noticed that his status has not been changed to Unknown Would be great if someone did. Bharatram1 Aug 28 20:37 (UTC)
 * Tinni, I checked Gin's page to day and noticed that his status has not been changed to Unknown Would be great if someone did. Bharatram1 Aug 28 20:37 (UTC)
 * Tinni, I checked Gin's page to day and noticed that his status has not been changed to Unknown Would be great if someone did. Bharatram1 Aug 28 20:37 (UTC)

She has not changed it since it will not be changed. He is deceased. End of story, this discussion should be closed now--God (Pray)  20:39, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Prove it Bharatram1 Aug 28 2010 20:41(UTC)

Kubo formula, flashback + monologue. The guy cannot move, cannot speak and says he is leaving. Gin is dead. Leave it, I will get someone in here to close the topic. Stop trying to change everyone's status. Every single one of your contributions is debating a persons status. Like it or not we use facts here. Facts are called such because they can be proved. --God (Pray)  21:00, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

But what you are saying is pure Speculation and not fact. The fact of the matter is the last time Gin was seen he was still alive and not dead. And after that there has been no word as to say wether he is alive or not. No one says he is Dead. Just because Kubo uses a technique does not mean it is the same for Gin. Also if that is the case what about Grimmijow ? If I remember correctly he also got a Flashback and a monlogue but this very site states him as unknown.Bharatram1 Aug 28 2010 21:07(UTC)

I agree with Bharatram1, Gin's status should be changed to Unknown or Incapacitated. He was alive in the last chapter wasn't he? And so what if he posted about Rangiku a while ago? He was right about it anyways, Rangiku is still alive! His eyes were open and he was thinking clearly in 417, so he clearly is not dead yet. Please, just change it to Incapacitated for now, and when he really IS dead, change it back to deceased.Potterwatcher1997 (talk) 22:02, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Although those above me have been rather forceful in their insinuations about Gin's status, their position does have some validity. At this point in time considering Gin dead/deceased would be a misnomer. Death can be defined as the cessation of brain activity and the biological functions that sustain an organism. Yes, Gin is dying, that is indisputable, however, he has yet to die. The last several panels we saw of Gin were a coherent internal monologue and him likely losing consciousness. That alone, however, does not instantly declare him as being dead. In literature, it is a common occurrence for a character to shut their eyes shortly before they "peacefully" fade away, accepting their situation and having made peace with it. That being said, it is more veracious to consider that Gin's current status is "incapacitated." As it stands he is lying on the ground, bleeding out and likely losing consciousness, but he has not ceased being alive as of yet. It is highly likely that he will die, either in the next chapter or a following one, but it has yet to be confirmed with any veracity that he did indeed pass away in 417. Bharatram1 Aug 28 2010 23:30(UTC)

Again, this is a situation in which decisions are made for the good of the wiki and many of us agree the Chapter points to his death, your opinions won't change that, and our policies serve the wiki and have served it well!! SunXia (talk) 23:50, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Gin is on the verge of death, NOT deceased!
Geeze not this again.... Come on staffs! Can't you find any other words to describe the kind of condition that Gin is in at this point of the manga? Hes NOT dead! His eyes are open and is able to think. Granted this time I don't think were going to be lucky enough to have Gin survive... like what happen with Rangiku... to which you guys had listed her as Deceased instead of Incapacitated.

Thesaurus is your friend. Use it. ByakuyaMayuri (talk) 01:31, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you 100%, BM. Nice to see you on Bleach Wiki :DPotterwatcher1997 (talk) 01:39, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Hey Potterwatcher :) It's nice to see you here, too! Glad that people are speaking out againt this whole ordeal :)

Ooops I forgot to add in my signature :) ByakuyaMayuri (talk) 02:32, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Really, this is a moot point!! Short of showing a panel of his heart actually stopping, many of us have agreed that he is dead because thats how it has appeared as though he can now leave as Ichigo can now do what he wanted!! There was little we could do when two characters stated that Rangiku was dead and because there was no proof otherwise, she was listed as dead because, until otherwise stated, we keep the wiki as current as possible!! This is a tiny issue that is not important!! The wiki is of a high standard and pages are locked in instances to prevent edit warring, where people like yourself would turn it to alive and others would change it back to dead over and over, needless and pointless, as is this argument, if the status is wrong, it'll only be temporary any way, one LITTLE wrong thing, you guys need to get over it, this place ain't a dictatorship!! SunXia (talk) 02:53, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe, just maybe, you Wiki guys are not reading the context of Gin's statement right. Gin states, "I can leave and entrust this to you" not, "I can leave, and entrust this to you." What's the difference you ask? The latter of the two statements is what you are believing Gin is stating, the way you are reading it is, “I can leave [die], and entrust this to you” The difference with the former statement, the one actually shown in the Manga, is that what Gin is really stating is, “I can leave [hand this down] and entrust this to you.” The word “leave”, beyond the normal definition of going away, is also a synonym for bequeath, pass on, hand down, donate, or (and here is the kicker) entrust.

While you think Gin is stating the latter of the two statements, I contend, and rightfully so, that he is stating the former of the two. Now, if there was a comma after leave the statement would have a different meaning, akin to your own belief. But as it stands, the statement does not have a comma after leave so the meaning of the statement is that Gin, who believed that he was the only one who could kill Aizen, is handing down, or giving Ichigo the “inheritance” of the task of defeating Aizen. And bye the bye, I am, or was, an English Major.

Your main argument in this case is that Gin is saying that he himself is dying. This argument is like a table without a strong leg to stand on. And what happens to tables like that? They fold.

Also, god, I read your reply to BM and I noticed how you stated that you’re not an admin, but you also state that a thing called “we” made the decisions many times in that post. Don’t you mean “they” made the decisions? Take this advice from a former admin and moderator of different sites, if you are not an admin or moderator; don’t act like you are one. While these guys may think it is cute and whatnot, it really isn’t. Let “them” do “their” job as is their right because “they” are admins. And while God may never be wrong, you are not God, you are a man, you will do well by remembering that.

Further, admins, again, some advice from one of your peers, you should wait before something is in fact stated outright before making a judgment call. The mark of a mature and educated admin is one that takes his time in making decisions and not speculating on maybes. You should listen to the public’s voice, but you should also make educated decisions as well. That is what separates the credible sources and the wikis or the world.

Finally, let me just state that I have no vested interest in whether you change Gin’s status. I just cannot sit by and watch as a site that is supposed to be in the format of an open forum goes and blocks, chastises and punishes the very people who are suppose to be helping in building the very same site. --Yahwehisme

Bye the bye, I AM an English Major. The statement can be read either way without the comma. The comman in this case would only add emphasis and when I say we, I mean we the people of this wiki. Perhaps you did not learn of context when you were an english major. Fight all you want but Gin's status remains. If you do not like how things are handled here, go elsewhere--God (Pray)  04:55, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry context is using the parts before or after a specific section of a statement, correct? Well, as you did not say in your statement that “we” meant “we the normal members or Bleach-Wiki,” I used “context” and garnered that you believe that you have some sort of power over decisions that are made on this website, in other words, the way I read it was you saying, “I have more say than you, the ‘normal members’ of this website.” Also, although you say “we” I do not believe your “we” is the same as others “we.” What I am getting at is just because you say “we” have decided to do it this way, doesn’t me that “we” actually did. Let me ask you this, if Gin’s status was somehow changed to “undetermined or incapacitated” would you have a problem with that, would you want it changed to “dead?” Also, if you do believe that in some way your say is more important than any other user on this webpage, maybe you need to reevaluate yourself. --Yahwehisme

You'd think that differences of opinion would be appreciated but you seem bent on ignorance. It's not a case of leaving if you disagree - you voice your opinion and try to change things to what you think is right. Everyone should. You're just being childish in asserting that you are right and no-one else has a valid opinion. Worse still you decide that people that disagree should leave and allow you your monopoly of the truth. That's the antithesis to this whole medium. It doesn't necessarily matter what the majority has decided - If it isn't shown for sure that he's dead then its ridiculous to list him as such. Speculation is still speculation even when the majority speculate similarly and It most certainly should not be a case of "dead until proven alive". It's akin to being guilty until proven innocent :S Just record the facts, please, and cut out the nonsense. Why don't you go and list him as dead when it's actually shown that he is (Which I agree is very likely)?

Maybe this wiki should have a bill of rights so that "we the people" are protected? :) --Yahwehisme

I think it's premature to say he is dead, dying yes, dead no. If Yamamoto can be listed as unknown it doesn't seem out of order to list Gin as incapacitated. As for the "Kubo death formula" that kinda went out the window when Gin opened his eyes. At the same time, changing it back at a later date I can live with. Just my two cents. Arrancar79 (talk) 05:20, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, all of you start signing your posts. Secondly, drop it. I am done. You are all done as well. This is not an act of being childish. I am merely voicing to you what the admins have said. Do you think you guys are the first ones to bring this up. I alone have told at least 15 users before you guys that the decision was made and there was no changing it. Even if I were to agree with you, there is nothing I can do. I am just in here trying to handle this so that the admins do not have to come in here and waste their time telling you everything I have been saying, that way they can focus on the important stuff around here. If you want to complain some more, be my guest but it won't do anything. Why don't you take it to the admins. User:Salubri User:Yyp and User:Arrancar109. Stop attacking me and start being productive. If you want to have your case heard, take it to them.--God (Pray)  05:24, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Like I stated earlier, I have no vested interest in whether or not Gin's status is changed. I just had a viewpoint on this whole discussion and felt like I should post it. You can think of me as an outside, objective, commentator. --Yahwehisme

This is not about point of view, it's about facts. As Godisme already said, over the past 2 weeks we've all been pestered by all kind of users who just can't understand the way things are done in this wiki. We have ways to do things, and as Salubri said once, it would be utopical to have a Wiki where anyone could edit, but due to people who don't read the guidelines, who won't mind the policies, and can't deal with how we handle things, it just can't be, and this is a perfect example. Yes, Gin opened his eyes, but was then shown closing them as he was thinking the infamous "I can leave... blah blah". The past two chapters have followed the "dying formula" that we have seen a lot of times before (Nnoitra, Starrk, Baraggan, Tosen, Harribel -anime only). Gin had his too, all with Matsumoto mourning over his body. That with the injuries he sustained is enough to call him dead. If he is shown to survive all of that, his status will be changed, just like Rangiku's was, and that'll be the end of it. Until such a day comes, he'll stay deceased. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  05:47, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

No-one is done, and it's not up to you to say who is either. It may well be an insignificant matter but it's signposting the inconsistency here over the status of characters. As has been mentioned, Yamamoto and Gin are about as uncertain as eachother but they get differential treatment. None of us think we're the first, quite the opposite. It's the fact that you're ignoring more than just one or two people that makes this quite silly. It's not that we don't understand how you do things on this wiki it's that we think you're doing it wrong. All you can provide is that it seems as though Gin is dead but there's no proof, so why call him dead? The "death formula" isn't infallable and isn;t exactly a good basis for impartiality. There is this air of finality on the matter that's really innappropriate regardless of who's making that call given the uncertainty of it - To the point where, even if it's futile to attempt to change things, you should all realise the error in that method. Blunt refusal to make changes once the initial decision has been made is invariably absurd. Perhaps you are just voicing what has already been said but you're putting yourself in the crosshairs and it should be some sort of wake up call to you that people love 'attacking' you so much over unimportant things. --Celeden

It is late, and I have work in the morning so I will leave this discussion with words of men and women that are much greater than I regarding the importance of facts:

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. Mark Twain

and

There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure the truth. - Maya Angelou

That is the absolute last I have to say. --Yahwehisme

Since this is getting out of hand, I'm going to close the discussion. Lia and Godisme both explained things to all of you, you know how this is going to work. We'll keep Ichimaru as deceased unless he's proven or stated to be alive in future chapters. Ichimaru's wounds are fatal, he even confirmed himself to be dying, Rangiku is mourning over him... we're sticking with deceased. This discussion is now closed, and any attempts to reopen it will fail. In other words, he's dead, get over it. Arrancar109 (Talk)  06:00, August 29, 2010 (UTC)