Forum:Isshin Kurosaki Royal Guard or 11th Division ? (Thread closed)

I heard this from several people as a rumor, but I think it deserves discussion anyway. I heard that Isshin may have been a former royal guard, which, besides Yamamoto, only the most powerful shinigami may be a part of. Do any of you think its possable?--CloudHiro 05:33, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Has anyone ever had the theory that maybe he was the former Captain of the 11th squad? This would explain why the 11th squad captain was never shown in Turn Back the Pendulum series. Yes Shinji said he didn't recognize the spirit energy but maybe that's because he had lost most of it. This could also fall into line that Kenpachi Zaraki killed Isshin to become the new captain. But Isshin never dies and is brought to the real world. Hence Isshin losing his powers. This would explain why he knows Urahara because they were both captains at the same time. This would also explain why most of the older captains go out of their way to help Ichigo. Like Ukitake and Kyōraku. Even Kenpachi himself.

Also notice the similarity in Kenpachis haori with Isshins. They are both frayed at the bottom.

I think he was Captain of the 10th before Hitsugaya. Hitsugaya couldn't be a captain for a long time cause he's a child, However, he might be captain of the 11th as well, because Kenpachi is no murderer and has always shown mercy with his oppononents and has only killed them when they don't accept that it is over like nnoitra. However, he still has his haori and thats the point. Kenpachi has taken his haori from the previous captain so if isshin was from the 11th he wouldn't have his haori.--Suzumushi 10:02, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

its actualy well established that Kenpatchi killed the previous 11th captain, because it is stated that there are only 2 ways a shinigami can become a part ofthe gotei 13, ether by acheveing bankai, or by killing the previous captain with a certain amount of shinigami present. Also, though it may be a filler arc, it is pretty much blatently said that Kempatchi killed the previous captain, and even though its a filler arc, it still carries some weight on the series. If Isshin was the 11'th squad captain, he was most likely removed from this position and replaced by the captain that was killed by Kenpatchi. but then again, its more likely that he was the captain of the 10th squad, and perhaps a kings guard after that, since he only gave up/lost his shinigami powers 20 years prior to the start of the series, which is consistant to when Hitsugaya became captain --CloudHiro 11:13, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes the 10th Division argument tends to carry more weight. The 11th Division is stated more then once in the series to have had the previous Captain before Zaraki killed by him. While yes the flash back is only seen in the bount arc it is pretty much confirmed in Turn back the pendulum arc in conversation. As for isshin he was only gone from soul society for the past 20 yrs, which plays toward the 10 division position. Salubri 12:22, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

speaking of which, if he was the former 10th devision captain, what do you think will happen now since it apears that Hitsugaya is being beaten, above a fake version of what and where used to be Karakura Town? I doupt he would have been put to sleep as well and Im shure he is aware of the situation. do you think he'll come to the captain's aid? this is just idle speculation on my part. pay no mind to it. --CloudHiro 20:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Nah i dont think he'll get involved he obviously left for a reason and to be honest we really dont know whats gonna happen with hitsuguya, though its interesting to see that Halibel may or may not have some type of original form after her release that deals with water, really how well is that gonna go with someone who has power over ice. we'll just have to see. Salubri 00:04, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

--CloudHiro 03:36, 24 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The Eleventh Division is discarded when we consider that Kenpachi carried the previous captain's haori with him, while Isshin still has his. The Seaweed Ambassador 00:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The point of him being the former 11th division captain is not even logical at this point as we know for a fact the one previous to Zaraki was killed by him in a duel and Zaraki has been captain for over 110 yrs. Now its been said that Isshin hasn't been a Shinigami in 20 yrs. If he was a captain then he would have been in the last 20 yrs the most recent captain is more then likely Hitsugaya so he was probably former 10 th division captain, and then i would go on to say that considering his medical background he may have been a seated member of the 4th division at some point.Salubri 01:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Zaraki has not been a captain for over 110 years. He became Captain while Tosen was a Captian, and in the TBTP arc Tosen was still a seated officer or below and that was 100 years prior to the main story. I am still sticking with that he was the Kenpachi before Zaraki. Maybe Azien used Kyōka Suigetsu to make it look like Zaraki killed Isshin. Then Isshin was forced into exile since he was thought to be dead. I'm sticking with this theory. My second option would be that Isshin is Yoruichi Shihōin brother that took over the second squad after Yoruichi was exiled. Don't forget Soifon stated the Yoruichi had a brother who was a disgrace to the family. The theory of Isshin being the Captain of the 10th before Hitsugaya IMO is the last one I would pick. There isn't a reason for it. No back story. At least my other 2 theory's have a back story or reasoning to it. Quadrupus 02:05, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Shows how much you have actually read or maybe havent read but watched. zaraki became a captain before urahara did 110 years ago that much was stated by shinji. maybe you should actually read turn back the pendulum before you start making assumptions. Tosen didnt become captain until sometime later off panel (bount arc anime is a filler and anime is secondary sourcing not to mention that it came out before they did the turn back the pendulum came out and manga is first sourcing therefore it takes precedence of anime). Not to mention your ridiculous speculation is entirely out of place and makes no sense seeing as isshin in conversation with urahara talks about fighting aizen. secondly Soifon was talking about her brothers who died on their missions for the stealth force, something else you should actually read. Salubri 02:28, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well on all this it is still unknown when Isshin was, if he indeed was a Captain (no one has blatanly said that he was, and our only clue is that he has a haori), he would either have been a Captain before Shinji joined or after Shinji left due to him not recognizing the energy. As we know even when someone has increased or decreased their power others still recognize the specific signature of the Reiatsu. Another thing is Shinji said that the Captain of the 11th Division was named Kenpachi just like is tradition with all the 11th Division Captains, he never says that this Kenpachi is indeed Zaraki just a Kenpachi so until we know that they are both the same the info from the Bount arc (in which Tosen) is the most conclusive info we have. As far as the royal guard that is also a posibility for Isshin as we know only former Captains are members. So all in all we don't know anything about his past so we should refrain from adding any of this info in any of wiki's articles. WhiteStrike 04:23, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

See heres the biggest problem with assuming the 11th division. Shinji and loves conversation goes like this. Shinji says the 11th sqaud isnt here. love responds "he is slacking off, looks like he isnt listening to what he's told, as usual". To which shinji says "10th generation kenpachi or not he's a pain in the ass, why would they make such a guy a captain. Love says  it cant be helped, every generation of the squad 11 captain has been a kenpach thats the custom. Shinji then responds If anyone's to blame, its the former kenpachi for losing to this guy". True enough his name wasn't said but everyones willing to believe from some pics in the manga that tosen's zanpakuto belonged to his friend originally but not that zaraki was the kenpachi in question. Now lets think about this, how many kenpachi's do we know slacks off when it comes to formalities and rarely does what he's told. Also how many kenpachi's do we know having killed the previous one. last i can recall we know of only one, zaraki. Also considering tosen cant stand zaraki for this reason, how many people have used that third method to become captain only one that we know of. Anything else is speculation we know all this much about zaraki and yet virtually nothing about isshins role in soul society. even if we went with the bount filler he still would have been the guy who killed the previous captain all that would have changed is the date which is still around 100 yrs. Also everyone including tosen said the guy was dead. Salubri 05:03, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Just read through the posts and i saw CloudHiro say that there are two ways to become a captain and that one of them was to acheive bankai. Just want to point out how wrong he is actually, there are three ways:

1) Captain proficiency test (隊首, taishu): A test which requires the ability to perform Bankai. Presumably, most shinigami become captains using this method. At least three existing captains, including the Commander-General, have to witness the test.

2) Personal Recommendation: To have personal recommendations from at least six captains and approval from at least three of the remaining seven.

3) Trial by Combat: To defeat a captain one-on-one with at least 200 witnesses from the captain's division. Kenpachi Zaraki is the only known current captain to have achieved his rank using this method. This method is seen as being the exceedingly rarer of the three as well as the least refined. The method is commonly looked down upon by some captains as barbaric compared to the other refined methods. This method also allows one to bypass having the mastery of bankai or other possible abilities that a captain would otherwise be required to have knowledge of, as it allows no judgement from captains who would require those skills as a prerequisite to join their ranks.

Just wanted to point that out. Sanbuntaicho 12:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Where is it stated by shinji that Zaraki was the Captian? Just because it sounds like Zaraki doesn't mean it is him. Sounds like your doing a lot of speculation yourself Salubri. Wait for the Issihin Gadien IMO. Until then it is all speculation. Quadrupus 16:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Know im about facts and logic which more likely then the scenario that you put up. Which i notice you do retract any of your wrong insertions. but when its proven with even more evidence we'll see. Salubri 17:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Yea im gonna have to go with Salubri on this one. There is alot of speculation going on but he isnt the main one doing it. While their is alot of logic behind it being zaraki there is nothin behind isshin being a captain of any division. Now he very well may have been a captain of something at some point in the past. But what ridiculous notion did someone come up with the 11th division. I would really like to see someone give something of evidence to prove it, cause if no one can they need to take the topic off the table of discussion. The royal guard is even more likely given his apparent knowledge of arrancar and investigating them. As what would be more important then tracking high level hollow as its stated they do that the Official character book. Halibel101 17:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It took me a while but i finally found real hard proof that the Kenpachi from the turnback the pendulum is not Zaraki. In Chapter 146 during the fight between Zaraki, Tosen and Komamura there are two pictures from a flashback by tosen in one Tosen is clearly seen wearing his Haori and the other one is Zaraki with the Haori he took from the previous Captain the text from it says "I've had a stong suspision ever since you made Captain,.. ...by killimg the Captain of the 11th company, I've thought 'This man is a monster... ..."Spreding Carnage and thirsting for blood, 'he is not like the rest of us 'he cannot be allowed to stay'" (text taken from Bleach Volume 17 viz released translation) here is a link to the page for you to see. WhiteStrike 10:16, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem here is all that is shown is pretty much the same scene from the bount flashback supporting the bount arc. So unless there is evidence to prove that previous kenpachi had the same personality traits as the current zaraki which is highly unlikely. its like saying urahara and mayuri are the same in personality because they both are 12th division, when thats obviously not true. This is also a situation of something taking place in the the beginning of the series as soul society arc and the bount arc. But also a possible considerable change in the turn back the pendulum series. Which interjected alot of characters in roles we didn't previously know they had. So the reality is either every kenpachi kills the next which doesn't seem likely as if people want to use tosen as back up he would have had a issue with any previous captain or it was just zaraki who is proven to have killed the previous captain. Also there is no proof of when zaraki became a captain nor that of tosen. Reasonably there could have been years between their attaining their positions before it was first voiced as an issue. The only proof being used against is involving tosen both early arcs one a bount anime filler and the other a one shot pic on a chapter page in the soul society arc.Salubri 13:25, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, well I was not going to post again because every time I do I imagine a vain popping out of Salubris head. lol. For starters......

"Know im about facts and logic which more likely then the scenario that you put up. Which i notice you do retract any of your wrong insertions. but when its proven with even more evidence we'll see. Salubri 17:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC) "

Salubri, I never once retracted any of my wrong insertions or edited them. If you don't believe me, I do believe your an admin pls check the logs.

OK, so thinking about this a little bit more this is my run down. Yes Shinji and Loves conversation does describe Zaraki a bit. By Zaraki killing the previous Captian. We don't have any proof though if this has or hasn't happened before. We do know Zaraki can be a bit of a slacker, but we really haven't seen Zaraki slack off and not do what he's told to the extent of not showing up to Captian meetings. Infact Zaraki does do what Yamamoto tells him to do. Not always to the fullest but he does at least start. Example: Stoping Ichigo but not killing him when they invade S.S. Also how many Captian meetings have we seen Zaraki miss since the start? I'm not saying Zaraki wasn't Captian in the TBTP series but I'm not saying he was either like you seem to say Salubri. But the facts and logic do point to him most likely not being Capitan during the TBTP series because of the Bount arc. Which yes it was a filler but it does hold weight to the story line.

But on a different note I am going to retract my “top theroy” of Isshin being the 11th squad Captian during TBTP. Is it possible that he was? Sure, no one knows with T.K. But Salubri, Soifon did have brothers who all died, yes. But she also stated that Yoruichi did have a brother who was a disgrace to the Shihōin family (This actually fits Isshin seeing his son and daughters seem to view him the same way by the way he acts sometimes). My new top theory is that Isshin was the brother. Because lets look at these facts. Urahara and Isshin know each other. This could be due to Urahara and Yoruichi close friendship. Isshin also seems to know about Azien and hollows getting shinigami powers. Also Shinji didn't recognize Isshins spiritual pressure. So this means Isshin was well known before or after Shinji gained his hollow powers. But I am going to say after because of the convo between Urahara and Isshin about him losing his powers about 20 years ago. On another note lets look at Ichigo when he was saving Rukia. The cloak he used had the Shihōin family crest on it which was stated by Soifon. Now maybe anyone can use the Shihōin family items. But wouldn't it make more sense if only Shihōin decedents could?

I'm not stating I 100% believe this theory. I think anything is possible. Zero squad, 11th division, 10th with Hitsugaya replacing him. I'm just stating that this theroy makes the most sense to me. Salubri, I am sure you feel the same about Zaraki being the Capitan during the TBTP series. But you are right when its proven with even more evidence we'll see. I was hoping that the new filler arc was going to be the Isshin gadien but I think T.K. will write it in the managa first seeing it is such a hot topic among bleach fans.Quadrupus 00:17, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok then where is the proof of this where in what chapter was it said that she has a brother. Also isshin acts as a goof most of the time, his family doesnt see him as a disgrace they just can't really take him serious because he doesnt either act serious or command respect. Isshin is a shinigami there is any number of ways he could have information on aizen and arrancar. Shinji didnt recognize his spiritual pressure meaning that he most likely became sometime after Shinji, considering Urahara knows him it was most likely after the fact its only been 20 yrs since he lost his powers and urahara is a undercover salesman to shinigami in the town. No it wouldn't make sense if only shihoin family members could use the items as she stated to ichigo the simple operation of the flying device and Ukitake and Kyoraku used her families shield to destroy the sogyoku.Salubri 11:27, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

As of right now I can not find where Soifon said it. I believe it was in the anime possibly at the end of the show in the little extra. So if anyone does come across it please post until then I'll also be searching for it. I wouldn't call Urahara "undercover" it seems to me many of the Shinigami know who he is and where he is located. You are right that other people have used shihoin family items. Ukitake (not Ukitake and Kyoraku) used the shield and i believe a lance looking weapon. But Ukitake also stated he was sorry he was late but that it took longer then expected to break the seal. He is then shown with the items. So yes they can be used by other people. But it seems not any shinigami could pick the item up and use it for what it is ment for. Just because she explained how to use the device to Ichigo doesn't mean anyone could use it.

Yes and just because you don't think so doesn't mean they can't also. yes it was both Ukitake and Shunsui in conjunction who used the shield you might wanna look that up. Also a seal prevents something from getting out like a locked container. Meaning the shield was under some protection and it took ukitake some time to break it in order to get to the shield. Ive personally referenced majority of the shinigami pages so I know what they say, there is no manga reference (primary source) to anything about Yoruichi's family, other then their connection to the special forces.Salubri 00:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the Isshin is the soul king or mebmer of the royal family but my best bet captain of the royal guard. The guy killed an arranar in one shot and knew it was more powerful than the ones before just by looking at it name 5 people that can do that.

"Ukitake and Shunsui in conjunction who used the shield you might wanna look that up" Wrong. Together they used the lance looking item. Only Ukitake is shown using the shield. Unless it is 1 item but from my understanding they seemed to be 2 separate items. Correct a seal prevents something from getting out. Maybe full potential of the shield since he was not of Yoruichi's family? As for my comment about Yoruichi's brother like I stated I believe it was in the anime. I'm starting to find it odd Salubri that you are theorizing/speculating as much as me but you don't even seem to consider my theory's as a possibility. Everything I have ever said has been my theory. I'm not saying they're right I'm not saying they're wrong. But they are my thoughts until more information is giving. Quadrupus 13:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Well after reading the posts i think i could end this all together. Ukitake is seen holding the shield and Kyoraku was helping him so its really depending on how you look at it but both were in trouble for using it. In the anime i believe Kyoraku was even more involved so either of you maybe right depending on how you look at it. Secondly Salubri is right about the seal thing, im not sure why it was brought up in the first place cause this is not the only time a seal was broken in bleach. The fact is noble families have amazing spiritual power and its not uncommon for them to put up seals, and has been stated that they are almost impossible for even a captain to break if they are not high nobles themselves. and its inferred that each family does one different so another high ranking noble from another family cant easily break it. This was all in the new captain Shusake Amagai arc. When Yoruichi taught soifon how to break the kusomaoji families seal, claiming urahara taught her how. Ukitake is from a lower ranking aristocratic family so it was hard for him to break the seal thats all. Anyone with the knowledge can do it, it would be simple of shihouin though. But once its broken its broken thats all a seal does protect and isolate. If he couldn't break the seal fully then he wouldn't have been able to get to the shield to use it at all. third i myself have been up and down through bleach and never heard of anything on Yoruichi's individual family members and not sure that it matters. But i think the point being made is if you cant back it up with some proof then it didnt happen. Speculation is one thing as long its probable and can be rationally backed up even here on the forum but Quadrupus you run very close to fan fiction when you can't back it up with something. Don't get me wrong alot of people on the forum's do the same thing, but from what ive read Salubri's point is if you state something least let it be in the realm of possibility. He gave a whole thing on zaraki, which theoretically maybe likely until proven otherwise. But there is nothing to suggest yoruichi has a brother nor that it would be isshin they have no similar features he has never brought it up nor her and she hasn't told ichigo or even acts related to him or more concerned then a friend. There's really just nothing to support that theory. Hopefully that ends this from a simple third party.Instigator545 14:54, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I think Isshin was lieutenant of squad 10 and later Captain of the same squad. As for why he was not there, Shunsui said the Captain of Squad 10 was dead or killed (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.01/14/"]Bleach-108 Page 14) and was recovering mentally from his Captains death and don't forget when Azien was thought dead there was no talk of replacing him yet seeing as he subnornates would need time to recover from such an event(don't tell me he didn't really die I know that just saying before they found out the truth, the trauma it caused Momo could of been plagueing Isshin). When Shinji was talking about who were present at the meeting so far he mentioned captain of 11 and how could someone like him be captain. Love reminded him of the tradtions of the name Kenpachi and stated, the former Captains weakness allowed for such man take his place(http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/315.01/11/"]Chapter-108 Page 11). Seeing as the Captains don't like this man it could be Zaraki as he is described as coming to meeting only when he feels like it something that isn't like Ichigo and his father and it seems like Zaraki to follow his own rules. The reason I said Ichigo and his father were similar because Kisuke said later on that Isshin was like Ichigo(http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/188/08/"]Chapter 188 Page 08). Squad 10 is the only open spot and the only confirm canon members are Toshiro who was proably not born yet and Rangiku who was a child and seeing as Kisuke said Ichigo was like his father the then 11 squad captain's attitude on attendance dosen't fit Ishhin or Ichigo plus don't forget shinji didn't like him from the looks of it. Isshin could of been selected later on to be the new Captain, perhaps after the Vizard incident seeing as he was not prersent at the emergency meeting. As for him knowing Kisuke, I have sevral thoughts either he was in Squad 12 and not 10 during Kisuke's reign or was in Squad 2 during Yorichi's time and while Kisuke was in squad 2 he met Ishhin or they just knew each other from their work seeing as many shingami know other shinigami outside their squads and along on their travels, met Uryu's father. I'm saying he became Captain after the Vizard incident.Plus I don't think Toshiro was Captain for long so I think he became captain after Isshin left for some reason. So Basically: Shinji's Generation of Captains: Squad 1-Shigekuni Yamamoto-Genryūsai Squad 2-Yoruichi Shihōin Squad 3-Rōjūrō "Rose" Otoribashi Squad 4-Retsu Unohana Squad 5-Shinji Hirako Squad 6-Ginrei Kuchiki Squad 7-Love Aikawa Squad 8-Shunsui Kyōraku Squad 9-Kensei Muguruma Squad 10-Isshin Kurosaki after the death of his Captain and the Vizard incident. Squad 11-Kenpachi Zaraki Squad 12-Kisuke Urahara Squad 13-Jūshirō Ukitake I basically saying Isshin was Captain of Squad 10 not the royal guard. First he was lieutenant of Squad 10 then after his Captains death and the Vizard Incident was Captain of Squad 10 and if he was in the Royal Guard it would of been after seeing as those in the Royal Guard were former captains.Saimaroimaru 16:14, 1 July 2009 (UTC)