Talk:Zangetsu (Zanpakutō spirit)

I think that the note about possibly being an adjuchas should be removed, because of the paragraph before stating:"If Ichigo were ever to turn into a complete hollow, it would be the end of the world, according to the Shinigami." I think that would be enough to illustrate his power, and anyway, how would a mere adjuchas be the end of the world when even Rukia can kill one? Wouldnt that be a decrease in power, because Ichigo easily "kills" an adjuchas (it turns out the adjuchas is still alive later, but thats what you get for not releasing Bankai). If it says anything about a possible hollow class, I think it should say possibly Vasto Lorde.Crimmastermind 06:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of the same thing

Adjuchas-class or higher?
I'm not sure if the "end of the world" statement is even in the manga, but I won't touch it for now. However, I have removed claims of Hollow Ichigo being an adjuchas or vasto lorde. Technially, both classes are made up of multiple hollows, with one's willpower in control. While his strength is at least as strong as an adjuchas-class hollow, Hollow Ichigo is still technically a singular hollow, since he hasn't consumed other souls or hollows in all of Bleach canon. Arrancar109 21:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe he would be a vasto lorde singular hollow, but I would be asking only an theory or opinion. Maybe Hollow Ichigo could already be an inner self vasto lorde class, I don't think there could be a possiblity of it. A singular vasto lorde? IMPOSSIBLE, maybe possible. Maybe he never had a class to begin with, maybe not.Dekoshu 03:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Could it not be possible for him to be a vaste lord because he is Zangetsu and Zangetsu has killed a lot of hollows? R0H0 08:41 6 April 2009

Maybe Hollow Ichigo (Ogichi) maybe is a Adjuchas or a Vasto Lorde.
I watched the way he fights and he may be an Adjuchas or a Vasto Lorde. It still not that simple to consider Hollow Ichigo Shirosaki either of these superior classes. Thank you for removing the claims(no sarcasm), Arrancar109.

I agree with you, Crimmastermind. I think it truly should say Vasto Lorde (Enormous King). What would happen if Hollow Ichigo was/is TRULY either an Adjuchas-class and/or Vasto Lorde-class Hollow? But no matter what, I'll always consider him ONE of the Adjuchas or a Vasto Lordes, either of them are good enough to keep him happy. Dekoshu 03:44, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

His name is NOT Ogihci.
Look here. A mirror writing is different from a backward spelling. Now let's take a word like bid. What is the backward spelling of this word? dib. Now what is the mirror writing? Same, bid. The backward spelling of Ichigo's name and the mirror writing are different things altogether. And most importantly, the mirror writing was in Japanese. I forgot to mention this in the article, but a Japanese mirror writing will deviate from an English backward spelling even further. Therefore, the Hollow Ichigo's name is not Ogihci Ikasoruk, and as he claims, we can say that he actually has no name. :(His Wrath falls from the Heavens. :Starshade) 06:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Adjuchas or Vasto Lorde
No, he can't be. Menos are the result of mass inter-devouring between hollows, which has, so far, not happened. So he couldn't be an Adjuchas or Vasto Lorde. He is only a normal hollow, which just happens to be Vasto Lorde-level or higehr.

Here is my two cents "Could it not be possible for him to be a vaste lord because he is Zangetsu and Zangetsu has killed a lot of hollows?" R0H0 08:41 6 April 2009

I was pretty sure this thread was dead with the creation of others below but just to make sense ill say this. Ichigo is not a hollow if anything he is a vizard wbo have been stated to have inner hollows and therefore having a inner hollow is not the same as being a hollow. Secondly by the logic that he would be a vasta lorde because is not a probable one because that would mean that every shinigami is a vaste lorde hollow because their zanpakuto has killed a hollow. third we cant compare him to a vaste lorde at all considering we dont know what one looks like or what their true power is. Gross speculation considering as powerful as ichigo is he is not the most powerful character in the series. 15:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Bankai

 * Advanced Growth Rate: Like Ichigo, Hollow Ichigo's most astounding ability is his growth rate: he grasps the basic control of advanced techniques in days where it would take even months or years for the most gifted Shinigami, even Learning things faster than Ichigo. One example is the Bankai of his Zanpakutō, which he learns in three days alongside Ichigo with the assistance of a special device invented by Urahara. So far, Hollow Ichigo is the only Hollow known to have a Bankai.

While he is the only Hollow proven to have one, by deductive logic, you can know there are others. In the Soul Society Arc, someone remarks that Kenpachi is the only captain in he history of Soul Society to not have mastered Bankai, or something to that effect. Then, there are captains in the vaizard, so one could assume they had Bankai, and through them, their hollow, when it was prevalent, also had Bankai. I say this because Hollow Ichigo says he got Bankai at the same time Ichigo did, signifying Ichigo's having it was the reason for him to have it.

I LOVE HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!
he's my favorite character, he rules!!

--Seireitou 04:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC)Seireitou

Ichigo vs Ulquiorra
I think the section which say: ''While he is quite confident that he can defeat both Yammy and Ulquiorra together, Ichigo in his Vizard state could not inflict a scar on Ulquiorra. It is assumed that this is either because the Hollow's power is absolute but Ichigo is yet to learn how to use that power fully, or simply because the Hollow was underestimating Ulquiorra, and only recently gained the power to match him.'' is misleading, because it implies that Ichigo's attacks cannot damage Ulqiorra, much like his first attacks on Kenpachi. However, this is not true, since when Ichigo fired his Getsuga Tenshō at Ulquiorra, he said afterwards that it was too powerful for him to stop (though I admit that he managed to dodge it and was not really hurt as a result of the blast). Still, at least reword the paragraph (under trivia) so that it better reflects this fact.Crimmastermind 06:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well I wrote the paragraph, so I guess I should be responsible for it. Okay, but until recently the fact that Ichigo's full power Getsuga couldn't even hurt Ulquiorra is true. So I think I'll just add that part (which states that even though he was unhurt Ulquiorra couldn't block it either) to the paragraph. What do you think? :(His Wrath falls from the Heavens. :Starshade) 21:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Getsuga doesn't work against Ulquiorra, even now. I think since the Grimmjow fight, Ichigo has gotten stronger, which means his hollow has gotten stronger.  That's why he was able to crack Ulquiorra's sword and force him into releasing.  Whether or not the hollow itself could beat Ulquiorra is immaterial, since Ichigo is (firmly?) in control.Big red01027 21:44, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Vasto Lorde or...
I don't think he's anything below a Vasto Lorde,but could he be a... Never mind,it's stupid.

GohanRULEZ 21:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

This is weird but...
Is it possible for him to be some type of....Arramcar?

Arramcar = NO. Arrancar = MAYBE. Mental/Spiritual Manifestation of Ichigo's Inner Hollow Powers = DEFINITELY.--Renji Abarai 07:40, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

gohanRULEZ 06:49, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

He is an arrancar!!!

gohanRULEZ 19:09, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

For him to be an arrancar he would have had to been a hollow in the first place and then gained what resembles shinigami powers. His powers arent even close to a hollows so therefore he is a shinigami who has gained hollow powers making him technically a vizard. Salubri 19:12, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

.It is simply entirely possible that he is going through a whole Sado situation. Sado's hollowesk power changed in Hueco Mundo into it's true form, so Ichigo's hollow may be doing the exact same thing, it is his True hollow Power and his True Hollow form. YTOfficer01 20:11 19th March 2009

Yes! Thank You!! gohanRULEZ 20:14, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

ummm...your welcome?YTOfficer01 20:32 19th March 2009

Maybe...
I think this will be the time when hollow ichigo will return. Remember what he said to Ichigo during their last battle(the training with the vizards) ? "If you really want to control my power, take care NOT TO DIE until I return, Ichigo!!!" - Bleach chapter 221, page 17. His long hair may be the prefiguration of his hollow form again. If you will remember his hollow form has long hair. It's just a theory but I really think he will become more of a hollow now. --Agate genbu 15:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not maybe. Anyone with enough sense will recognize that it's the inner Hollow manifesting again. :(His Wrath falls from the Heavens. :Starshade) 07:26, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

New Cero
This may be stupid but I think that since Ulquiorra's Cero is called Cero Oscuras meaning Dark or Black Cero, then Ichigo's Cero should be called Cero Blanco meaning White Cero (because of it white appearance). Hollow Ichigo is know for using white attacks so I'm pretty sure the color is white. The reason I say that is because most of the words that have anything to do with Hueco Mundo are Spanish words. Just a suggestion. --- Klross1.


 * There is no proof as of yet that Ichigo's cero is white. I mean yeah, it is possible that it will be, either stated by a character, or shown in the Anime (MUCH later, unfortunately), but do not forget that manga pages are naturally black and white. Just because Ichigo's new cero looks white in the manga doesn't confirm it until someone from the story (or Tite Kubo) states it. Don't forget, in the manga pages, just about every cero looks white, so it's too soon to assume that Ichigo's new cero is white. Arrancar109 19:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * We can't take the luxury of inventing the techniques name, just because it seems to fit. If it hasn't been given an official name, then, just like Ichigo's Hollow, we can presume it has no name, or at least that it doesn't have one yet.Lia Schiffer 01:02, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

If I would have known that the comment I made was going to create a problem I wouldn't have put it on here. I also know that it's quite hard for one to forget that manga pages are black & white when i read various manga everyday (as i'm sure others do as well). I was just saying.. like everybody else does. It's called voicing ones opinion. If need be this "New Cero" section can be taken down by anyone if it's going to cause anymore "speculation" or "inventing" problems. (thnx:) ---Klross1.

Amagai Arc - Hollow Ichigo's Grin
I think it symbolizes his smugness at Ichigo realizing how strong his hollow powers - thus, Hollow Ichigo's powers - are. Balmung6 00:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Evolution
This ties into the Adjuchas, Vasto Lorde thing, but is there any way hollow ichigo could've possibly evolved? His new hollow form leads me to believe that possibly, he has previously as Adjuchas, and now hes a Vasto Lorde. Killa0norris 00:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so. Don't forget that Adjuchas and Vasto Lorde's come from conscious Gillians, which are composed of many Hollows merged together. Ichigo's Hollow form is still just a single Hollow, since Ichigo has not consumed any Hollows. I (as well as many others) think his newer state has something to do with the fact that he underwent a Hollowfication process that was different from the Vizards'. Additionally, he's also a human, and he can possibly be undergoing a similar situation to Chad (he commented that his powers felt different while in Hueco Mundo). Still, at this point, I won't deny that since his power is comparable to a Vasto Lorde's, since he is able to easily outmaneuver and overpower Ulquiorra in his Segunda Etapa state. Arrancar109 05:13, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm aware of this, but still this is bleach. At first speculations were that arrancars could only have one release due to their zanpaktou's being nothing more then their former hollow selves sealed away; so the possibility of a singular Vasto Lorde/Adjuchas if very real. Killa0norris 00:31, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

As of the grimmjaws attack on the real world at the time he got his arm cut off by tosen, Aizen states his espada will be complete when he finally gets the vasta lorde together. Meaing as of the initial attacks on ichigo in the real world he hadnt but the espada he currently has arent vaste lorde. On top of that ichigo is not a hollow he is human and if anything else a shinigami making him a vizard. There is no way he can evolve like a hollow because he has only gained hollow powers and secondly becoming a vaste lorde requires more power by devouring other hollows but ichigo hasnt done so. You really cant place any of the beings we've seen in that class cause no one has seen a vaste lorde or for that matter knows truely what there power is. Speculations based on ichigo and his abilities wont bring much answers being that its obvious ichigo is not the most powerful in the series and he isnt using his full potential and he battles and wins just barely. There was no speculation on whether arrancar have one release cause they do with only one being the exception, Its speculation to assume that any other has a second release or that anyone is capable of one besides what has been shown. Its a fact that arrancar have the first release. Salubri 01:38, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

First of all it is not a fact that the arrancar have only the first release if that whats you were implying. But anyway, Hollow Ichigo could've "evolved" nonetheless. My theory on Segunda Etapa is that a hollow from the subconcious of an arrancar's mind that is(was) powerful enough, allows the arrancar to use a so-called second release; but anyway, due to "plot-kai" Tite Kubo could allow this possibilty. Though my question is pretty much already answered(due to the fact that Hollow Ichigo is obviously much stronger, and MUCH MORE HUMANIOD) further info could be provided on it(as in if there really could be a singular menos inner hollow).Killa0norris 01:48, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Humm last i checked all the arrancar we've seen most of the espada and their faccion had one release, and how many have a second on thats right one. So i dont have to imply anything as a fact because all arrancar do have one release, whether they all have the capability of a second release (with the exception of one) is nothing more the speculation. Where its easy to speculate then look to what information is already given. Your implying there is more then one that isnt proven fact except in one case. Your implying speculation not basic fact, until proven otherwise arrancar have one release. Salubri 02:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Lol, we got off subject, all arrancar could have the potetial to have a second release, but sense artificial arrancar were just recently "born" they will not get it soon enough. Also, whatever we should end the convo here...Killa0norris 02:55, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Scarmask
One thing I had to notice was that the illustration on chapter 289, titled the Scarmask, featured a (top right quarter of a) skull face very similar to Ichigo's new Hollow mask, though there are notable differences. Do you think Kubo drew this to foreshadow Ichigo's new transformation? Its different shape and coloring might be because the design was still being processed, like Di Roy who appeared as early as in the first arc. :(His Wrath falls from the Heavens. :Starshade) 12:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The changes to the mask are very pronounced, the horns are now pointing upwards and much longer, also the mask does not have the face of a human school. the design on it is nothing like the current mask, etc. etc. I doubt it.Killa0norris 00:34, 21 March 2009(UTC)

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/289/02-03/ before

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/08/ after

Compare the two mask, the only resemblance is the horns.Killa0norris 00:36, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Orihime
I heard from a friend that he is lusting after Orihime.

gohanRULEZ 19:35, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds like fan fiction to me. I don't recall Hollow Ichigo ever lusting after any female in the series. Arrancar109 19:44, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Well,that's what my friend told me,but yeah,it does some like something out of a Fanfic.

gohanRULEZ 19:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

A Speculative Fiction
I've been reading a lot of the ideas concerning Ichigo's new hollow transformation and I believe I might have something to add. Possibly. Has anyone ever thought of the possibility that Ichigo's inner hollow, regardless of class, would have a resureccion ability? For me, it would explain how Ichigo was revived. Before I'm pelted with facts about Arrancar or Vizard let's all take the time to remember that Ichigo is in fact at least half Human and that the rules concerning the former do not necessarily apply to the latter.

While I understand the mindset your coming from. Ichigo is a human (meaning he hasn't died in the real world and been reborn in Soul Society). So the other side is he has gained shinigami powers and his soul can leave his body behind, then in gaining the abilities he also unintentionally gained hollow powers. So I think thats where you were going, he is basically somewhat of anomaly. The only thing is even still he seems to follow a set guideline based on what has happened. Kinda like if your given soul burial your reborn in soul society, if your in the human world to long after death or give into despair your reborn as a hollow. The problem being ichigo isn't dead (considering if he was he would be reborn in a different body and no memories of his past and vise versa thus taking him out of the story). So what are we left with someone who went through a method to release his soul from his mortal body and then gained powers of the shinigami but also because of that method also gained hollow powers inadvertently, so because he was shinigami before really gaining the hollow abilities that makes him a vizard technically (as he has shown on on many occasions). The only problem with the arrancar idea is that its the opposite of a vizard a hollow who has gained shinigami-like qualities. So what im getting from your idea is that his inner hollow (which seems more like a consciousness type of entity) is the exact opposite of him making the inner hollow a arrancar. Now why i can understand the concept due to the way he achieved his abilities and all but then the question is how does it have access to his abilities as a shinigami, arrancar dont have shikai or bankai, hollow ichigo has shown capable of both. A Resureccion is the releasing of the true hollow sealed form of an arrancar, it not a true zanapakuto, as thats all its for, sealing their true hollow form. Now the new transformation i believe is more related to his vizard abilities, i reflect on that from kensei's original transformation 110 yrs ago when he attacked the investigation team. Salubri 15:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I also believe that Ichigo's Hollow form might have had a transformation to begin with, but hasn't been able to manifest itself until recently. I mean, if you look at Ulquiorra and the fact that most Arrancar seal their power in a zanpakuto, his Segunda Etapa ability was likely an ability Ulquiorra had ever since he was a Hollow, but rarely shows it (as he notes that he hasn't shown it to Aizen yet). For reasons still unexplained, this could have been one of Ichigo's Hollow abilities as well, but might have needed something to trigger the transformation, which might include the theory that Hueco Mundo is affecting Ichigo's powers in a similar manner to Chad's. Also, I think it's possible that the other vizards might have a similar transformation as well. Granted, none of them has proven it yet, but we haven't seen the full power of each vizard as of yet, and they might be capable of something like Ichigo has become. It's still unknown now, so I think we can only call this a theory at best. Arrancar109 22:51, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Not exactly a berserker?
I noticed somethin' between the different Hollow forms in Hueco Mundo and the Vizard training scenes. In the Vizard scene, Ichigo was just wildly swinging his sword about at his enemies for most of the fight.

But in his fight against Ulquiorra, his tactics seemed far less wild. Almost as if they were focused and he only ever used his zanpaktou once, just to finish off Ulquiorra. It maybe as if Ichigo may have some conscious control over this new form. Kaihedgie 01:43, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Its possable, he may have just enough control to fight efficently, but not enough to tell friend from foe. --CloudHiro 04:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Arrancar
Only Arrancar are able to use Sonido and Ulquiorra said that he used Sonid,so he must be an Arrancar,right?

gohanRULEZ 10:34, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes and No. Yes Ulquiorra said that he used sonido however that alone does not make him an Arrancar. Sonido is a high level Hollow technique while we only seen Arrancar use it no indication that regular Hollows can't learn it, also sonido is just a variation of shunpo similar to hirenkaiku (Quicy tehcnique). So while he did use sonido he has not shown any other characteristics to qualify him as an Arrancar for now he is just a Hollow/Shinigami hybrid and his transformation may only be something common among Vizard. WhiteStrike 10:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully and not something else.

gohanRULEZ 19:34, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Transformations
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/64/07/ On that page, even though it was Ichigo's training to become a full shinigami, it seems that was the first time Hollow Ichigo actual materialized for the first time. The Second time that hollow Ichigo fully materialized he showed different charateristics, and was less "humanoid". The third time, he also looked different, Hollow Ichigo looked more "humanoid". Where am I going with this? Simple, because of these changes I think Hollow Ichigo has made the transition from normal hollow, to adjuchas, to vasto lorde. The reason I didn't list gillian is because well four transformatons haven't been shown and, since hollow ichigo isn't comprised of more then one Hollow soul maybe he doesn't have to go into that stage and could go straight to a singular adjuchas and vasto lorde stage. Yes this theory is flawed but a little speculation never hurt anybody. =P Killa0norris 02:51, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

As far as we know, this isnt another apearance of a full hollow form. it could be, more likely, a full merger of shinigami and hollow powers, in other words, the second, final transformation of a vizard.--CloudHiro 11:42, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

What is hollow ichigo?
Hollow ichigo oveously knows what a hollow is, but stated he doesnt know what he is. plus a hollow's evolution and strength comes from the amount of souls and other hollows it consumes, which again isnt the case for hollow ichigo because, dispite being a single hollow, he's growing in strength far beyond what the capabilities of what a single hollow can gain without mergeing with several other hollows and becoming a menos, yet, on his own with ichigo, he's gaining such strength that he is aguably is comparable with a Vasto Lorde class. Almost none of the rules of a Hollow or a ancariar apply with hollow ichigo and the only connection he seems to actualy have with hollows is the abilitiy to manafest hollow powers in ichigo's body. Also, the only time he actualy seems to come out is when strong opponents are around that ichigo cannot defeat currently to help him, never has he came out simpily to attack humans or something like most hollows would, nor has he ever attempted to come out to attack ichigo's friends (the current form of ichigo doesnt count, cause he seems to be a uncontroled, mindless berzerker focused only on protecting orihime and has a inablility to determine friend or foe), but, as we seen when Orihime's brother was a hollow, they wouldnt hesiatate attacking friends and family, and in fact would focus on going after former family and friends if possable. 'hollow' ichigo's only real consern is to defend themselves against overly strong opponents when regular ichigo cant do it with his own power and eventualy being in the driver's seat so to speak.

I think perhaps Hollow ichigo isnt a 'inner-hollow' at all, but rather ichigo's other half, the mannifistation of all of ichigo's repressed feelings he had since the day his mother died combined with the power he had since birth.--CloudHiro 05:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Speed
On Hollow Ichigo's page in the Evolved Full-Hollow Form section, shouldn't we put Sonido Master since he was obviously faster than Ulquiorra (and it was stated by Ulquiorra that the movements were that of Sonido and not Flash Steps). ---Klross1.

Mask
not sure if this is relevant but if you look at the new mask on this hollow form it has more black then his normal mask, it was original thought by many that this represented the control he had, what if this is actually the amount of the hollows powers he is accessing (similar to the tails in naruto) this would explain why when it first appeared in the series it only had 1-2 strips and increases with the strength of his opponents

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/351/02/

Fawcettp 00:27, 18 April 2009 (UTC)