Forum:Zanpakuto Filler arc - General

This topic is for discussing the current Zanpakuto filler arc in general. Feel free to post speculation about the arc's future, ask about favourite moments, or post general questions you want answering etc. --Yyp 13:25, November 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * If you wish to discuss Muramasa specifically, please post in the Official Muramasa Discussions thread.
 * If you wish to discuss the current events of the story, post in the Official Zanpakuto Filler arc Story Thread.

New Topics
Add new topics about the Zanpakuto Unknown Tales arc here and only here. This is because we do not want or need multiple threads on different aspects of the same topic clogging up the Watercooler. Thanks. --Yyp 13:53, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Is Sodeno Shirayuki selfish or needing love?
If you have seen episode 231, Rukia falls out of the gate and Ichigo catches her in his arms. Then, Sodeno Shirayuki comes. She says to Ichigo: " That girl belongs to me." Is that being selfish? In the next episodes, Rukia fights Sodeno Shirayuki, and gets hurt. Ichigo comes to fight, but Rukia continues to fight. A ball of swirling ice comes around the two ladies. Rukia uses ' Six Rods of Light ' and traps Sodeno. She then says to her: " I set you free..." And they both fly backwards. Sodeno then emotionly says to Rukia: " Kuchiki Rukia...... Why....? " I think that is just showing, that she really needs love. Then, Muramasa just has to come in a spoil things, and make Sodeno hate Rukia again.....

It is up to you please tell me what you think.

How can you defeat ryujin jakka
After watching the latest episode on the qnime im thinking how can soul society possibly deafeat ryujin jakka. The whole plot thing with Muramasa was kind lame but the thought of him controlling ryujin jakka is intriging--Jwill35 07:01, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

I assume that Yama-ji already achieved bankai, therefore he has once defeated Ryujin Jakka (the zanpakuto submitted to his master). So I think only Yama-ji can stop Ryujin Jakka.--WinterFox 01:27, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe Aizen will show up, use his illusions on Muramasa and allow Yamamoto to take back Ryujin Jakka. Evilgidgit 14:21, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Gonryōmaru
Anyone else find it odd that we are seeing to much of Gonryomaru's power in the anime filler? I mean, Kubo is involved with the development of fillers. I believe he either designed the zanpakuto spirits himself or worked very closely with the head studio character designer on the zanpakuto character designs and I am sure his input is always welcome. So I am wondering if this is it. I mean, it might be that the reason Kubo is letting the anime filler arc introduce new information about Gonryōmaru is because he doesn't feel that Gonryōmaru will see a lot of action in the manga and Bleach might well end with us having no information about the abilities of Gonryōmaru except for what has been shown in the filler arc. Not that I am suggesting we put Gonryomaru's abilities in as canon or anything. I just found it odd that we are seeing so much of it in the anime arc, when we hardly see it or it's master in the manga. Tinni 09:33, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

I'm still confused by why he has that staff instead of Sasakibe's Shikai. I find it hard to accept that Sasakibe might conceivably have lightning powers when the spirit doesn't even use the same weapon as him, while all the others do (same with Tenken's new weapon & fire breath). There is something very odd about the way Gonryomaru is being used. --Yyp 11:08, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Orionradar---

So who believe we will actually see a "new" attack or bankai from a relatively well-known zanpaktou during this arc? Will we get the first anime version of Jakuhō Raikōben (Suzumebachi (soifon) or of any attacks from Sōgyo no Kotowari (Ukitake)?

I actually like this arc...however, I believe it should have CLEARLY been defined after the FKT storyline (although it isnt completely done/written yet. I think it could've been a great next arc while waiting for round 2 vs. Aizen... (They'll need a new enemy then) (I believe that Aizen is currently studying the Shinigami and will leave with/when Tosen or Gin is (or is apparently) killed.) I still think there are more Espada (Vasto Lorde) to be seen, and Aizen is just waiting to see what they would come up with to stop him and he will retreat. Or that it's all a game, and that the Shinigami in FKT are under hypnosis and will find out that Starrk and Harribel arent dead (hard to argue against Barragan though...unless it is an illusion by Aizen and his zanpaktou)...but I digress

I want to see some new features or attacks...ESPECIALLY from Ichigo...but I guess that was too much to ask as he already has Zangetsu back. He's had the same attack (Getsuga Tenshō) since he learned his zanpaktou's name...I know he keeps augmenting his power through Bankai and his hollow mask...but it's getting old seeing him win with the same attacks. I mean truthfully...if he fought Szayel...he would've lost (presumably) because he would've measured Ichigo's attack and been good to go (like he did with Renji, Uryu and Nel's fraccion). I mean...even if he learned to fire a cero I'd be happy...his hollow has...but if I recall...Ichigo's own reiatsu control is so poor he can't...

Anyway...just asking the questions to anyone that wants to chime in...User:Orionradar

Also...forgot to add this...

I am somewhat disappointed at the seeming lack of a correlation between Ukitake and Shunsui's zanpaktou. It would've made much more sense (based on what we know about Shunsui's zanpaktou now in FKT) if his were the kids (the children's games...two separate entities, etc) and Ukitake's was a single person who's shikai command may have split that person into two and they could've attacked in tandem or something like that (maybe tie them together like Renji's Zabimaru based on the only ability we've seen so far... Would've just made more sense to me...thought I'd throw that out there... Orionradar 22:37, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Byakuya, The Truth Behind His Betrayal
I already get on why Byakuya sided on Muramasa possibly because he want to take revenge or something like that because he know that Muramasa belong to Kouga who is an adopted member of the Kuchiki and will release him in the Karakura Town.--Frostymoon 5:25, January 03, 2010 (UTC)

Merged Topics
These existing topics have all been merged into this one to reduce clutter in the Watercooler. Everyone is free to continue adding to them. --Yyp 13:53, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Favourite Zanpaukto Spirit
So, we've seen a fair bit of the new filler arc which, in my opinion, is the best one so far, although I liked the Captain Amagai arc as well. My question is, from the Zanpakuto spirits we've seen so far, who are you favorites? For me, I like Hozukimaru and Ruri'iro Kujaku, which isn't surprising because Ikkaku and Yumichika are two of my favorite characters.

So, which spirit do you like?

Mine favourites are Hyourinmaru, Hisagis Zanpakuto (I can't remember it's name) and Zangetsu. Ergroilnin 19:58, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

I really like Senbonzakura, Tobiume, Ashisoji Jizo, Sougyo no Kotowari and Ruro-iro Kujakku. These all have great designs, personalities & scenes. I dislike Haineko, Hozikimaru, Sode no Shirayuki, Kazeshini (that guy got old quite quickly for me). I'm indifferent to the rest of them at the moment. A few of them have had no screen time yet though, so that's not a knock on those ones. --Yyp 20:18, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

I liked Senbonzakura, Tobiume, and Hyorinmaru when he finally began to show some personality. I can actually understand his desire to search for his identity, and I found it interesting that he was the only Zanpakuto to lose his memory. The only spirit that bugs me is Zabimaru, and it's only because the gender change of the baboon was never explained. I mean, people assume it's that omake, but Renji didn't recognize her at first. Arrancar109 04:54, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

I like Hyorinmaru. I especially like his little bit in the Omake at the end of episode 241. He had such a deadpan expression on his face but he was so playing a joke on Isane! Plus that ice sculpture he made of himself kneeling besides Hitusgaya was just cute! He's like a puppy! A dragon puppy! I want a dragon puppy! I am with Arrancar109 on Zabimaru. That is bugging the hell out of me. I am also not found of what they did with Haineko and Tabiume. Tinni 05:09, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, my fav is Senbonzakura. To me he just doesn't act so high & mighty, always talking down to everyone like Byakuya does. I also really like Ruri'iro Kujaku Minato88 05:30, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Sode no Shirayuki all the way, I hope she is like this or better when she apperas on the manga eventuallyDaigo623 20:51, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

My favorite is Senbonzakura. I find it amusing that such a controlled individual has a Zanpakuto who's kind of emotional. I also like Hyorinmaru and Rurio'Kujaku. I dislike Zabimaru; they're a really strange, really annoying pair. I also find the dynamics between Haineko and Tobiume annoying and their interactions drag on for far too long. While Haineko does seem to fit her master's personality, Tobiume doesn't, and I just don't know what they were thinking when they designed her. I want to see more of Ukitake's Zanpakuto. They look like they could be interesting. Twocents 21:01, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

My favorite Zanpaktou is Ruri-iro Kujaku 22neji 22:03, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

I definitely think that Hyōrinmaru is probably the coolest one we have seen in combat so far, and showing off his abilities. I think that Kazeshini is still one of the coolest and would love to see it get more powerful, or at least have Hisagi use it more often.(and in the new filler arc i love watching it battle). I would LOVE to see more of Shunsui's Zanpaktou Katen Kyōkotsu because Shunsui is THE BEST character in Bleach, and already seeing some of the power of this Zanpaktou in the Manga i would LOVE to see where the Zanpaktou has been since getting rid of the Captain Commander with the other most powerful Zanpaktou, "Ukitake's and Unohana's" (Minazuki, and Sōgyo no Kotowari). Also would love to see how she and the other 2 most powerful ones fight. And what powers they truely have =).Bk1217 21:14, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

My favorite so far is Kazeshini, maybe because he reminds me of hollow ichigo and the fact that he ahs so much power and true craziness compared to shuhei. Neji sharigan 08:14, October 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Sode no shirayuki! She looks and fights way better than Rukia who iirc was ranked 2nd in popularity?!? (wtf). Too bad Byakuya had to demolish her. --&#91;&#91;User:Qwertyasdf&#124;(QQ)&lt;sup&gt;∞&lt;/sup&gt;wertyasdf&#93;&#93; 14:05, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

My favorites are definetly Hyōrinmaru, but I also like Ashisogi Jizō, Kazeshini, Senbonzakura, Suzumebachi and Sode no Shirayuki. Bereisgreat 14:16, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

My favourite is definitely Hyourinmaru. I love how he always has a straight face, even when he's playing a joke, or those around him are being immature and such. And I love the story behind him, of how he lost his memory, and his dedication to his master. I also like Senbonzakura (I really wish I could see what's under the mask) and Sode no Shirayuki. Ashisogi Jizo is adorable in a creepy way. Zabimaru, I used to dislike quite a lot, though now, I've gotten a little more used to them. Haineko gets on my nerves, and I wished they'd done a better job with Tobiume. I think the very first time she appeared, when she was welcoming Muramasa back, that was more like her personality, not that there was much shown. But she was more shy and sweet, like Hinamori. Still, I have to admit she is also a favourite. My other favourite is Sogyo no Kotowari. I think that's it for now.KnowledgeandImagination 07:11, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

Sogyo No Kotowari, Hyorinmaru, Zangetsu and Minazuki the first one because he's Jushiro Ukitake's zanpakuto, Hyorimaru due to his calm yet incredible power when he's using it, Zangetsu due to his wisdom and Minazuki because it would be interesting.--SalmanH 18:07, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

My favorite would be Zangetsu, Zabimaru, Tengen (the spirit can breathe fire!), Haineko (hot werecat), Kazeshine, Houzukimaru (lazy bum), Hyorinmaru, Ashisogi Jizou (he cant even talk makes some clicking noises), and Senbonzakura (boo!). Jonathan Smith

I'd like to see more of Minazuki and Sogyo no Kotowari... i like the idea that Ukitake's zanpakuto spirits are little kids.. running around like hyperactive children, then Ukitake will go run after them telling them to behave but he can't catch up cause he is so sick... or maybe the twins will make fun of Ukitake and Kyoraku by imitating them. i think this can be a great omake--WinterFox 06:01, November 11, 2009 (UTC) :p

loved seeing Wabisuke, even just for him to get owned by Zaraki. I think it's a pretty amusing angle they've taken with Sasakibe's Zanpaktou too(sorry can't recall his name off hand). being so eastern in appearance when sasakibe wishes he was an english gentleman... maybe he has some means of spoiling his release command like Yumichika so that he gets the fencing saber???Nick D Wolfwood 14:35, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

How will the retrieve their Zanpakuto?
How do you think they will retreive their Zanpakuto spirits back? Of course they will have to battle their own spirits I think but but than again I dont know. I want to know what you all think will happen in this Arc? Tealang99 15:19, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

This is a hard question to weigh in on because the circumstance behind the arc are so confusing and asks more questions then it gives out answers. We have seen the Captain's are highly surprised as such things are entirely impossible. But someone found out how to do it, though the point is unknown right now and doesn't seem to make much sense. But if i had to venture a guess it would probably take place the same way that ichigo gained bankai. A one on one fight between the weilder and his/her respective zanpakuto spirit. That would seem the only way as to date we have only seen ichigo fight zangetsu this way to attain bankai. Maybe we will find out if others have had to do something similar to gain access to their bankai (in the case of the captain's of course). But it could be possible that the zanpakuto are under a spell, somewhat appears that way, to turn on the soul that they are apart of, the whole scenario is weird.Salubri 15:38, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I imagine its going to be more complicated than simply having each shinigami fight his/her Zanpakuto. As the previous poster implied their is some external force at work here...most likely a spell. The battles between sword and wielder will be inevitable but the cause of the ruckus will have to be faced and solved seperately in order to end the crisis.

Thats probably why Ichigo and Kempachi are both off doing their own thing rather than being involved in the fight. They will be the ones doing the resolution while the rest deal with the rogue zanpakuto.

The last was me! Great Cthulhu 16:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

With Kenpachi I dont think he even realized that his Zanpkuto spirit have even left because he doesnt know who or what it is. I think I will agree with Salubri on this one. I think the will have to battle their own Zanpkuto also giving the shinigami more of a appreciation of their Zanpakuto. May be even opening up for new strenths and abilities. I think this is also a perfect way to set up an introduction to Kenpachi's Zanpakuto. I mean this Arc can even force Kenpachi to learn his Zanpakuto name as well as learn how to become more familier with it. We will have to see but this could lead to something like that. Tealang99 17:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Remember this is only a filler arc so they can't and won't give any special abilities to anyone.. Deimonos 17:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Still...the fillers are based on outlines by the manga writer right? Maybe he decides to let the anime show something he never intends to cover in his manga. Kempachi's Zampakuto's abilities might be one of them.

Great Cthulhu 17:27, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I dont know assuming that Kenpachi is gonna even be involved considering that he absent from the events its questionable if he has a role or not in this arc we have to see. Other then that kubo has mentioned he would like to explore kenpachi more and has even shown in the manga kenpachi's want to have a greater connection to his zanpakuto, if anything i think he would do so in the manga, but with the current story being where its at thats hard to do sooner rather then later. Personally i hope not because if they showcase kenpachi's zanapkuto in the manga that makes it concrete as opposed to a filler were the general concept wouldnt be considered truly exceptable even from a anime only view point.Salubri 17:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe Yammy can help Ken-chan; as far as we can determine Yammy feeds on reiatsu, Ken has it in spades, Yammy eats a lot of it and Ken can finally hear his zanpakuto. Any thoughts?

As for the filler, I personally believe this is all a big test on Yama-ji's part, to see how his captains cope without his leadership, and without their most useful abilities. Could see potential futute CG's step up. TomServo101 18:01, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Thats True Salubri. We all like to see Kenpachi story develop more but I aslo agree in the current story line that it wont be abel to happen. Unless this Manga Arc ends soon with either with Aizen still the Enemy or a bigger stronger enemy shows up. Either way I feel Kenpachi will be forced to reconigze his Zanpakuto due to him needing its strength for a battle. Tealang99 20:25, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

in several anime a Whistle or other musical instrument was used to control creatures, people, or even spirits, Zangetsu said he heard something. so the Shinigami will need to find and destroy whatever instrument is being used. Darkgoku 20:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm....it seems more than likely to me that Kenpachi will be having a major role in this arc even if there is no character advancement. True...its only the first episode but Kenpachi's deliberate and explicit absence from the captain's meeting stinks of foreshadowing. If he was just going to perform a minor role he would of been there. Great Cthulhu 20:49, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I can see that. I mean there is no better time than now to setup the intro to his Zanpakuto. I mean how long will we go on Kenpachi not knowing. I mean i understand if he did know it he would more than likely be the strongest shinigami in the SS. But I mean we need to know! I mean he needs to know. LOL Tealang99 20:56, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Even if nothing is done with Kenpachi's Zanpakuto during this arc there is still the comedy you can get out of a Kenpachi/Ichigo team-up as they try to save Soul Society. That has been too long in coming too! Great Cthulhu 21:17, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Is Sode no Shirayuki dead?
Muramasa said that Sode no Shirayuki is killed and Rukia will die too, but Rukia is still alive, does that means that she still has a little chance of staying alive?

No, what he said was that without a zanpakuto a shinigami is as good as dead. What he meant was that Rukia being a shinigami who does rely somewhat heavily on her zanpakuto during battles would surely die in combat because she no longer has a zanpakuto. It's a general statement about the dependency of a Shinigami on their zanpakuto. Rukia is not about to drop dead. Tinni 14:46, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

Nor is it possible for Sode no Sharayuki to really die, since we know Rukia still has a working Zanpakuto in the present manga, which is after the events of the unknown tales arc. --Weedefinition 15:09, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

It's not that it's after the events of Unknown Tales. This is filler that has nothing to do with the manga's timeline. --Shinitenshi 16:49, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

I would say no for a couple of reason's. 1 being that this is filler nothing is permanent and the characters dont progress in the main manga story-line. 2 It's highly unlikely the type of things that Byakuya is currently doing his whole existence surrounds his pride as a noble of soul society, following the laws, and protecting Rukia the only connection to his deceased wife. 3 I doubt he knowingly killed her zanpakuto. That just doesn't sit right, 4 nor does it make sense that Muramasa would kill one of his own to secure the supposed loyalty of a shinigami. 5 Senbonzakura doesn't seem like he is so against Byakuya he acts the part but idk or at least Byakuya is keeping a closer eye on things. 6 Muramasa says at her defeat she is as good as dead but how does he know its not the same issue with renji and ichigo, didn't muramasa stop sensing them at their defeat as well. 7 doesn't defeat mean winning the sword back one way or another, knocking them back into their right mind. 8 Why would Senbonzakura give Rukia the sword back 9 Broken or not we all know zanpakuto heal and Rukia's even has an ability that allows it to so it can keep fighting. This in itself has some deeper meaning we will see later on in the story here but by no means is this permeant. Zanpakuto are part of the owners soul they live and die with the owner, Rukia is still very much alive so its safe to assume the same of his zanpakuto even in this situation.Salubri 18:06, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

(i believe she will use the third dance to regenerate like when rukia used it against the 9th espada)RayJr

I think that maybe this was all one big plan by Senbonzakura and Byakuya. Senbonzakura had byakuya "kill" ice-sword-lady and then returns her to rukia for her to use. When the fat soul died, he didn't turn back into a sword like she did. It would be a pretty clever way to get a man on the inside, and another out from the enemy's gasp.

I agree with Salubri. Also one other thing, I think that Sode no Shirayuki had already submitted back to Rukia during their fight but was taking back to the cave where she was kept. Making Sode no Shirayuki contemplating on what to do. But if Sode no Shirayuki was to confront Rukia again i think she would have completely submitted back to Rukia so maybe this is just Rukia getting her back. Quadrupus 21:08, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

i think Sode no Shirayuki has been sealed. most likely when muramasa is defeated all the spirits will return to normal.even the broken ones. rukia would have felt something if her sword was really destroyed. Darkgoku 00:45, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

(points at the scene where Rukia is given Sode no Shirayuki and she can't feel her Zanpakutō's presense) Gold3263301 22:53, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

Sode no Shirayuki and Hyorinmaru
After seeing the lastest episode, and the power of Sode no Shirayuki, it looks like Hyorinmaru might have even more devastating powers, considering he's supposedly the strongest ice zanpakuto. How rough do you think Histugaya is going to have it, dealing with his zanpakuto?

Personally, I don't think any of the captains should have a hard time, they've all bested their swords before to attain their bankai, so I don't see how they can really lose. One eye 19:18, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

If Ichigo's experience was anything to go by than you can't just say that because the Captains had bested their swords before to attain Bankai they would have an easy time of it again. The fact is that increasing the power of your sword is about soul searching and resolve. You come to an understanding with your sword and open up new abilities as a result. It really has very little to do with actual physical combat or skill...it just plays out that way in the shinigami's mind.

The Zanpakuto Rebellion is a whole different animal. This is REAL combat against powerful foes who know all of your tactics while depriving you of your single most powerful asset...your own Zanpakuto. Its not a training session and its far more dangerous.

The Captains are not going to have an easy time of it. Zanpakutos, IMO, easily make up to 1/2 of an average Captain's combat power. The other three arts (hand to hand, flashstep, and kido) can help off-set the difference but they won't win the battle without clever battle tactics and bloodymindedness. Rukia's battle with her Zanpakuto is probably going to be typical of these kinds of fights...desperate and deadly. Great Cthulhu 01:14, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Ichigo in Zanpaktou arc
One thing i realized when watching the Arc, Ichigo is the ONLY shinigami to retain his Shikai after Muramasa came into contact with him. All of the other shinigami who had their Zanpaktou "freed" didn't get their Shikai form back until either they found the energy in themselves to realize they had it all along, or they had to defeat their zanpaktou.

It also makes me wonder what would happen if Muramasa tried to "free" Kenpachi's zanpaktou, since it technically doesn't even have a name, let alone a materialization. These two zanpaktou are the only ones that have constant shikai forms.

and like i said, Ichigo retained his shikai after being released by Muramasa. Bk1217 08:16, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

I think that because of this problem with Kenpachi's Zanpaktou, they had to finally throw him into the arc late, so that Muramasa won't even be around to try to "set his zanpaktou free"

Kenpachi's Zanpakuto does have a name - Zaraki just doesn't know what it is. And if the lieutenants that do not have Bankai can have their Zanpakuto spirits materialized by Muramasa, then there is nothing stopping him from doing the same to Kenpachi. About the reason that Zaraki was not in the early part of the story, that's more than likely the case. Rather than drawing attention to a potential problem with the whole concept of the arc, by doing this they neatly avoid the issue. Yyp 11:37, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, and i meant that noone, including Kenpachi, knows the name or even relates to his Zanpaktou. However, we aren't going to learn anything about his actual Zanpaktou in this arc, sadly, because when going into Hueco Mundo, Kenpachi has no idea what his sword's name is.

my main reason for this post is to add facts to Ichigo's page, like i said, so far his is the only Zanpaktou that keeps the shikai form after Muramasa released it. Also, i made a seperate post stating that Ichigo is the only one to defeat 2 espadas. However Kenpachi and Byakuya are probably gonna make Yammy their second.Bk1217 11:52, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

I think that Kenpachi Zanpakuto will stay in shikai and Muramasa will not be able to communicate to his zanpakuto because of his spiritual pressure and him not knowing it in the first place. Every one who zanpakuto who got released all had a decent relationship with their sword. If you think about it if all zanpakuto could hear Muramasa then even the lower class shinigami should have had their zanpakuto spirits released as well. So in order to introduce Kenpachi to the Arc without reveiling his zanpakuto Muramasa wont be able to materialize it i thinkTealang99 16:11, October 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ichigo got his speed back kinda. I still remember when he could make copies of himself (vs. Byakuya). He's just gone to crap (even with his mask he never got that speed back). So the filler atm is nostalgic lol.

Ichigo's Zanpakuto in new arc
I don't quite get this: if Zangetsu is gone from his Zanpakuto, shouldn't he not be able to use Shikai? I understand that he has a constant-release type Zanpakuto, but if he has nothing to release, then shouldn't it just appear as a normal katana, like with Rukia and the others? Why does it appear in its normal Shikai form, then? Twocents 05:11, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

It a bit of a tricky question, i think it comes down to since his Zanpakuto is a constant release type, it no longer has a sealed form to return to, hence to name constant release, thus it will never revert to being a the huge katana sword.AuronValentine 05:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

When Zangetsu was removed from Ichigo he leave Hollow Ichigo. And we all know what weapon the latter used when fight with Ichigo during Vizard training. So I think this is the reason why Ichigo still have his soul-cutter in shikai form. Also when he was fighting with capt of 3 division (not Gin but those from another filler) he have sealed his shinigami power and so Zangetsu should revert to sealed version. Then it was explained that he maintain all his power by using his Hollow. Maybe I'm wrong but now is somethink similar. He maintain his shikai form because of Hichigo and 'probably' could use bankai (If not him Hichigo could use when again gain control for some time)--Kazuki Senzo Miyakami 06:05, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Missing the point entirely. Zangetsu has no sealed version. The entire time from the first instance of it appearing it has been in constant release mode. So regardless of this situation zangetsu is still gonna be the same constant release version it has always been except it will not be able to use any of its abilities its a large sword is all. Also in the Amagai arc he is unable to use his zanpakuto' abilities again but do to him being a vizard he called on the other half of his spiritual energy (the hollow half) which allowed him to still use its abilities as the bakkuto only worked on shinigami powers. So back to the point it has no sealed form to return to, as when ichgio first became a shingami he wasnt using his own powers the enlarged version of a katana that he had was useless compared to a actual zanpakuto and was a result of him taking Rukia's powers. The size and shape of zangetsu is a result of has vast spiritual power which causes it to have been in constant release regardless of whether he can use its abilities or not thats the form it is initially.Salubri 08:28, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

YA SEE!!!! Salubri knows what i was getting at, constant release = no sealed versionAuronValentine 09:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

He haven't? Before he lose his shinigami powers his soul-cutter was looking like normal owersized sealed wersion which almost every shinigami have. Of course it was missing almost all blade part. And what he hold when regain his powers? The same handle, hilt and part of blade until he said name Zangentsu and pufff... we have shinkai form. So sorry AuronValentine but saying: constant release = no sealed version is wrong. EVERY Zanpakuto have sealed form but some after first use of shikai form never reverts to it. And also their said taht beacuse use have huge amount of spiritual energii and don't know how to control it. Which knowing Ichigo he wouldn't never learn how to control his. For end I'll only add that all we talk about is happening in filler so until somethink like that happen in mange we can argue to no end here about it.--Kazuki Senzo Miyakami 11:07, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

As shown in the recent episodes you are wrong also, this shows what you know of zanpakuto as i stated before from first generating his zanpakuto it was already in constant release there was no command phrase used, so constant release does in fact equal no sealed form just as zaraki pointed out about his own zanpakuto, the point of calling it constant release is that it was never in sealed form to begin with. Im not sure where your getting your information but its not correct at all. Also if you have read what was stated before the zanpakuto he originally had was because of rukias power not his own and it was shown to have bloated up into the shape of a sword but had no power behind it. That vast energy he has is what causes the constant release but that wont change anymore then his sword will, filler or manga on both accounts do not back up your points.Salubri 16:51, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, the reason behind Ichigo being able to keep his Zanpakuto in his Shikai is because he still has the hollow spirit within him. Like Ichigo himself, his inner hollow uses Zangetsu in battle(despite the opposite color scheme), the inner hollow was born of Ichigo in the same way as Zangetsu, molded from Zangetsu himself, and he even once commented on how he is Zangetsu when he was in control.

I agree with the constant release. If you remeber that when Ichigo became a shinigami it says that Rukia gave her power to him, though he took to much, and thats why she was going to be executed. It was illegal for her to give her power to Ichigo. And the reason the zanpakuto was so large was because of his spiritual pressure it was not because that was his unreleased zanpakuto. He did receivce his zanpakuto until the training from Urahara. Tealang99 18:16, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Read this bit fully please do not skim through it. Actually both Salubri and Kazuki have correct points now in-order to prevent anyone from misunderstanding: '''Hollow Ichigo was born when Ichigo regained his shinigami powers therefore he also became part of Ichigo the same goes for Zangetsu now he received Bankai and Shikai at the same time, and we know that he can only use the shinigami abilities while inside Ichigo and since he is a part of Ichigo yet also a completely separate part from Zangetsu as well as having his own power POSSIBLY allows him to maintain Shikai. YOU CANNOT ACHIEVE BANKAI WITHOUT SHIKAI, THIS IS CLEARLY STATED DUE TO THEIR VAST SPIRITUAL ENERGY BOTH ZARAKI AND ICHIGO HAVE CONSTANT RELEASE TYPES, ICHIGO WAS ONLY USING RUKIA'S POWER IT WAS NOT UNTIL HE RELEASED IT DID ICHIGO TRULY USE HIS OWN POWER THAT ALSO MAKES IT HOLLOW ICHIGO'S POWER FROM WITHIN DUE TO HIM BEING "BORN" AT THE SAME TIME AS ICHIGO. I apologise for typing all of those letters in capital it was just to get my point across, also the hollow ichigo part is a theory due to there not being any evidence of it in the manga even though it is quite good also since we haven't seen how it's affected Zaraki YET remember the Yet, so the theory could be correct but for now we refer to the manga until further evidence presents itself.--SalmanH 06:27, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Now its not likely to affect zaraki at all seeing as he is not apart of this situation as from jump they have made sure he is out of the equation. Matter of fact if you notice those characters who have yet unnamed and unknown zanpakuto have no spirits, Nanao, Iba, Isane, zaraki, yachiru, nemu, are not featured at as with their zanpkauto spirits being affected even though in the first episode isane comments that hers hasnt been working though we haven't seen it. I think its safe to say he wont play a role cause Kubo has already stated he wanted to do something with zaraki and it has to be done in manga for it to count not anime filler. Even if if he was featured it wouldnt matter he basically uses his zanpakuto as a simple sword anyhow seeing as he dosent speak with the spirit at all to even know its name. Salubri 06:59, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps, but Kubo could bring him because the situation fits perfectly, the manga kind of sucks compared to the anime and in this arc it's about the Zanapkutos why not bring Zaraki's into it it makes sense and we can't really call it filler since he is helping with the story he said he wanted to delve more into Zaraki what better time to do so seriously where would it fit in the manga now let's say that should he and the others fight yammy and by some turn of events his zanpakuto finally reaches him how much longer do you think that wait is, and as far as Kubo may be concerned this arc is as much relevant to the Bleach story as the manga.--SalmanH 08:40, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

I agreee with Salman. This Arc gives the Zanpakuto a indenty instead just being a weapon that shinigami uses. They must have an understand in order to reach their full potential, and that goes for both shinigami and zanpakuto. In this Arc it is showing how the Zanpakuto can not really go with out their shinigami and vice versa. They need each other. Thats why its time for Kenpachi to meet his zanpakuto so he can continue to get stonger which is his main goal anyway. We seen that brute force will only get him so far. I feel that there will be a fight for Kenpachi that his spiritual pressure alone will not be enough, in which he will finally start to listen to his zanpakuto and learn its name. Tealang99 13:28, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

whoa salman im disappointed did you just say the work that kubo creates on his own sucks, hachi vs. barragan sucks the driving force material behind the anime and the entire storyline itself wow. A filler is a filler when it removes itself form the storyline to do some side story regardless of kubo supposed hand in it. The point of the difference between manga and anime, its doubtful to happen it has to take place in manga or its not canon Kubo didnt write nor draw it from his own hand regardless of him signing off on something its not his work its like someone else doing a remake or re-imagining of a movie and the original creator is like ok. Also why i enjoy the concept cause the vast majority wont be focused on in manga its not true of the important ones. zangetsu, zabimaru and hyorimarua have been featured before. They are in war right now this zanpakuto stuff is not as important as the fate of the world. if the issue is a lack of patience it took issue with the lack of respect for the creator or his very story like without him there would be nothing and yet the anime done by others is better then what he does thats messed up. Plus all that about zanpakuto was knows about them being connected with the shinigami it just wasnt brought up all this arc does is provide sappy dialogue about a shinigami's feelings about their partner/weapon. I personally never questioned whether they needed each other or whether without them they would be nothing thats obvious. Zaraki cannot meet his zanpakuto in this it wont count the manga will go on and the next time we see zaraki he wont have advanced at all. Its amagai all over again they get a new captain and because its filler he ends up the bad guy and commits suicide it was obvious from the beginning that he wasnt gonna be around and his interaction didnt count. Same with the bounts. That theory doesnt make sense zaraki has defeated every enemy with brute force tosen with bankai and a released nnorita. all without his zanpakutos true power, granted he needs to communicate with it to get stronger but he has been doing just fine without it so far. Also considering that the prime reason for this arc is that their zanpakuto turn on them his zanpakuto would hate him for the neglect all that time not only that he wouldnt know it or recognize its spirit true form nor will it help him, they have yet found a way to even fix this situation just yet.Salubri 14:22, September 3, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY, I'm sorry i tried to add a bit of fun to this argument you know no hard feelings but you didn't understand what i actually meant, the manga sucks compared to the anime doesn't mean the story made by kubo sucks, what I was referring to was the obvious that would be the graphics, animation detail etc. Why would i even be on here if i thought that the story Kubo made sucks that wouldn't make sense.--SalmanH 15:44, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Return of the Bount to Help?
Since we have a filler season, and zanpakutou have gone crazy, what's do you think of Koga re-appearing with Ran'tao and offering assistance? One eye 05:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Not gonna happen. They already have a cast of thousands all demanding equal time! All the regulars plus Murumasa and his numerous Zampakuto flunkies are really almost too much for the story as it is. Great Cthulhu 05:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

As interesting an idea as it is, I don't think it will happen. I just don't see what the Koga could do to help that the Shinigami can't do themselves. Pretty original idea though. -- Yyp  (Talk)  15:02, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Zanpakuto Arc timeframe
i think this arc has to happen right before Ichigo's vizard training or Ichigo would have used his vizard mask. what do you think? Darkgoku 09:07, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. Momo is shown to be well, yet when she reappears in FKT, she's still far from combat fit (like she's only just been discharged). She's probably still comatose at the Vizard training parts. I severely doubt this story is actually meant to be part of the established continuity. TomServo101 10:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion that it's after the Vizard training, but the lack of Zangetsu is letting his hollow go more free than usual. Or something like that. It's not exactly clear. ZeroSD 12:18, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

After the latest episode it appears that this takes place after their invasion of hueco mundo and the big fight because in renki's flash back you see him fighting the mad scientist arrancar, sayzal (sp) forgot his name. anyways either that or it is an error on their part because then that means ukitake comes out the whole incident better, but again it is filler.

We're looking at filler, it's hard to place. Might I remind you of the Amagai arc that started mid-Hueco Mundo, and it didn't much explain. Once again, it's filler and meant to use up time for Kubo to add more to the manga. One eye 14:52, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

I think we saw evidence that the Amagai arc was after the Arrancar Saga. We were actually told that at the beginning. As for this arc, it should be after the Amagai arc, since Momo was almost healthy (before getting smack-downed).


 * Unrelated note: Wasn't it weird that 3rd Squad got a new captain in the Amagai arc? 5th squad was missing its captain and lieutenant. It was crying out for leadership. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) 00:52, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

Its always an issue where the filler material fits into the anime since it wasn't originally part of the manga; this is the case for many anime series not just Bleach. The filler material is a method of buying time for the author to come up with new material since they've animated the manga until that point.Spacedone 00:38, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure it takes place after the vizard training for sure because in the new episode, Ichigo's hollow told him he can't use this mask, so he already has it. Also, It's likely after the Arrancar battles, because of renji's flashback. But since it's a filler, it doesn't exactly exist clearly on any time frame, I suppose. KnowledgeandImagination 04:12, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

In the last episode of the new filler anime (236)Renji has a flash back to when he was fighting Espada SAG (8th). Well that now sets this new filler after the manga, if it's suppose to be connected to the manga (which i think Kibo said it was). So now it's not accurate or all of the characters we have seen in the anime will survive (this is good news for the 13th chapter, but maybe not the vizard). what do you think?

I thought exactly the same thing. That's why I believe it's not canon, as it'd 'lock' the fates of 75% of the characters in the series (ie they all HAVE to survive FKT, and Soifon would have to regrow an arm. Not impossible, mind...), and I've pointed out before it can't be set in the past (Momo's health). TomServo101 22:31, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Please note its filler and notthe manga therefore not canon.It confirms nothing.Saimaroimaru 06:12, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

The barrier around Yamamoto
I was wondering, if Yamamoto was the one who created the barrier, what were the other 3 zanpakutos (Katen Kyotetsu, Minazuki and Sogyo no Kotowari) doing to it all this time? --WinterFox 01:35, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

This is my theory. Muramsa, Minazuki, Sogyo no kotowari, and Katen Kyotetsu kidnapped Yammamoto and took him to the cave. He made a barrier and this is what happend. A The Three tried to break through the barrier but werent strong enough. B They were just acting so when Byakuya came it gave a plausible reason for what they were doing. C They may have been trying to analyze it for weaknesses. D They may have been trying to transport the barrier out of the cave and somewhere else incase someone tried to stop them other then Ichigo. Like Byakuya if he turned sides or yoruichi. Codyage 03:11, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

My assumption is that they were supposed to protect Muramasa should Yamamoto and Ryujin Jakka take down the barrier. Orionradar 04:58, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

hmm.. the scenarios above are possible.. but i think i'll go with Theory C (maybe they are trying to find the weakness or maybe as time goes by the barrier gets stronger and they are suppressing it) or with Orionradar's theory (I remember that when Byakuya came near the, part of the flame went out. then the zanpakutos mentioned that byakuya disrupted their concentration, thus letting part of the flame get through the barrier).--WinterFox 06:06, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

Where was everybody???
Anyone else a little dissapointed that in the flashbacks we only saw Ginrei and Yamamoto? I really enoyed the TBtP arc and was hoping to at least get some cameo glimpses of old captains. We know since Ginrei was a Captain it was at least supposed to be set around or before that time. Since Ichigo has his Hollow mask the Vizard are still around in this timeframe. I thought it could have been an awesome opportunity to maybe drop a glimpse of Isshin in there. Mostly becuase i have been chomping at the bit to see him again as a Soul Reaper!!!

Being that Unohana, Ukitake and Shunsui all didn't recognise Murumasa it seems the rest of SS took a quick holiday during this time of upheaval!!!Nick D Wolfwood 13:59, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

...they could just have been children playing on the laps of their respective mothers. I mean, we aren't certain when this great time of upheaval happened exactly. Tinni  (Talk)  14:08, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but Shunsui, Jushiro, and Unohana were Captains before Ginrei. Shunsui confirmed it during the TBTP Arc. I guess they were on vacation. Also, what is this deal with the "Elites"? What r they exactly? Royality? Minato (Talk)  14:15, January 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah I don't think that really means much. It was an off-hand conversation and Kyoraku could just well have forgotten about Genrei Kuchiki. He did forget about Unohana to begin with. Perhaps when Genrei walked up behind them, he might have had a "o dear! I forgot about him!" moment. Although I guess the simple explanation is that being a filler, it is hard to mess the story with the manga storyline. Just as it was the case with the bount. Tinni   (Talk)  04:25, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, it's doubtful that Isshin will ever be in the anime if it's not in a corresponding part of the manga. otice that filler arcs don't usually tell us much about current characters. Hence, we could learn some new things about Ginrei because he's not a current character. But if they were to put a current character in a filler arc, it could interfere or cause a discrepancy in the manga later. Yamamoto is the only current character we saw in the flashack to Kouga's time. That's probably the main reason that everyone else seemed to be on vacation. My question is, if Ginrei got Yamamoto's help to seal Kouga, wouldn't Ginrei have taught Yamamoto how to close off his heart like Ginrei did when Kouga tried to use Muramasa on him? If so, why didn't Yamamoto do that? Or was his barrier his version of that? However, the answer is that then there would have been no arc! --Liamxblazeneyes 03:42, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have an answer why Yama-ji didn't closed his heart they way he did when Ginrei and he selaed KOuga. Minazuki and company where there right? that's why he just can't close his heart. well, that's what i think.--WinterFox 01:22, January 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Lol, fillers are like fanfiction. You work with the information you have up until that point and weave a story out of it. Very possible that down the track a chapter will get released that totally invalidates the central point of your story. So yeah, I wouldn't concern myself too much about the discrepancies. Fillers are just to be enjoyed! Tinni   (Talk)  04:25, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Relationship to Koga
Would Koga not be Byakuya's Uncle-in-law? IIRC Koga was the son of the Ginrei's wife before she married into the Kuchiki House, thereby his son-in-law. Given how Byakuya is not the son of Koga, but of another of Ginrei's children, would that not technically make him a nephew-in-law to Koga? Phylarion 20:56, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but do we necessarily know Byakuya's exact relation to Kouga? I think they have deftly avoided answering that question. Though, I know we have previously seen Byakuya visiting his parent's supposed graves. I'm waiting for them to somehow explain that Kouga is Byakuya's father. Unlikely, I'm sure. But I'm waiting for it nonetheless. Did they say how Kouga became a son-in-law of the Kuchiki house? Did I miss that? Cause I got the impression that he married Ginrei's daughter? --Liamxblazeneyes 03:46, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Well as established in canon in the manga Byakuya has been seen visiting the graves of his parents. To that he probably is no blood relation to Koga. Beyond that what is noted is that Koga was the son-in-law of Ginrei. There is nothing remotely that ever said Koga was the son of Ginrei's wife before she married into the Kuchiki house, im not sure in what world were marrying a woman with a kid would be appropriate among noble families. Not only that scenario never took place. What is insinuated if any is that Koga was married to Ginrei's daughter. If Koga is Ginrei's son in law that would mean he married Ginrei's daughter if that ridiculous scenario of him being the son of Ginrei's wife was true that would make Koga his stepson. Also there is no proof of what relation he and Byakuya share as of yet but in the event that that Koga is married to Byakuya's aunt that would make Koga his uncle not uncle-in-law. Salubri (Talk)  04:29, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Just to address a point. Yes it was made clear that Koga was a "son-in-law" of the Kuchiki family. See the subtitle on the image to the right. He was not adopted into the Kuchiki family but married into it. Were he the son of Ginrei's wife before she married into the Kuchiki family, he would still have to be formally adopted to be part of the Kuchiki family. Besides which, as Salibur pointed out, he would be a stepson and not a son-in-law. "Son-in-law" does imply that the woman Koga married was Ginrei's daughter. If she were his sister, Koga would be "brother-in-law", niece - Koga would be "nephew-in-law". So either Koga is Byakuya's uncle or his father. Uncle is the safest bet given we are talking about a filler but father would be more dramatic ^.^ Tinni   (Talk)  04:39, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, yeah, that's what I thought, but of course, I don't speak Japanese at this point, so I couldn't be sure there wasn't something that I missed, I guess. Japanese is a bit of a complex language, so I really didn't know if there may be more to it than just "son-in-law." Thanks for clearing that up. You're right, uncle is more likely, since it's filler, but I'm hoping Kouga's his daddy! --Liamxblazeneyes 22:27, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Nah, son-in-law is just son-in-law. ^.^ Tinni   (Talk)  02:27, January 14, 2010 (UTC)