Forum:The Hōgyoku

This thread is for discussing the Hōgyoku and anything relating to it. Any new threads on this topic that are created will be merged with this one. --Yyp 20:48, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Hogyoku's Mechanics
OK we all know the ability of the Hogyoku breaks down the barrier separating a hollow from a shinigami and vice versa. This makes a shinigami a vizard and a hollow an arranacar. Hitsugaya states that arrancar have existed they are not a threat, but if they were menos or higher then they would be. Incomplete arrancar appear to be of little threat but complete ones are only possible it seems with the use of the Hogyoku. The privaron Espada fit this definition as Dondini says that once Aizen got the Hogyoku the previous espada would be obsolete. Seeing he hadn't got the hogyoku except in the past couple of months that all the current espada are the result of complete arrancar development through the hogyoku. If all the espada personify a aspect of death, then would that mean the hogyoku granted already powerful hollows and incomplete arrancar additional powers according to what Aizen wants.Salubri 21:28, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

Hogyoku: Seperate the Hollows from Vizard
Just wondering, because I'm sure this has popped up somewhere but I couldn't find anything on it...

Does anyone else think that Aizen is gathering the Vizard up for his own uses? The Hogyoku has the capability to combine or separate Hollows/Shinigami. To reference, when the Vizards were becoming hollowfied Urahara attempted to use the Hogyoku to seperate/cure them to no avail. Is it possible Aizen is going to use the Hogyoku to seperate the current Vizard from the hollows within them?

I'm guessing he combined them originally and used them as sort of a way to grow powerful hollow, possibly Vasto Lorde. If you've watched Ichigo's hollow it seems to have grown exponentially in power, resembling a vasto lorde at it's purest form. Would Aizen be devious enough to seperate Ichigo from his hollow, and them combine himself with what seems to be the most powerful hollow in the series?

Your thoughts and comments please. Casualbleach 21:47, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

I apologize if there was any misconception of what I was saying. Basically, I believe there might be a possibility that the vasto lorde are created by incubating them in powerful shinigami, and wanted to see someone else's input. On a different note, I'm curious as to what is going on in Inoue, and whether they fused her with a hollow because there are constant references to something going in "inside of her", and then always a diversion from the topic. Casualbleach 23:20, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

the Hōgyoku just dissolves the wall between Shinigami and hollows creating a stable hybrid. the Hōgyoku cant combine or sepperate the two (Shinigami and hollow). the Hōgyoku might be able to undo the process but i dought it. if it could Kisuke Urahara would have helped the vizard. Darkgoku 02:11, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

The Use of the Hogyoku
The Hogyoku is used primarily to create arrancar and espada style hollows. This is more explained when Isshin Kurosaki fights with the evolved form of the Grand Fisher. He and Urahara explained that Aizen was testing his new creation in the real world and seeing how much he has to perfect it before he gets it right. I believe later it is also described that some of the Espada were created by Aizen, while others (Staark and Barragan) were already so powerful that they had their spot already. If someone can please help me with the exact Espada who were created and the ones that were already strong on their own that would be helpful. It would be nice to have a good list of these, ones that we know so far.Bk1217 09:03, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

I cna tell you that Starrk and Aaroneiro are the only two who were arrancar before Aizen met them. Starrk we know from the flashback was already an arrancar, and Aaroneiro was an original Espada who were all natural arrancars. Barragan, despite being probably a vasto lorde and certainly extremely powerful was still just a hollow when he was recruited. And only Aaroneiro was an Espada before Aizen came along. Therefore I would guess that all except Aaroneiro and Starrk were artificial arrancars. BollyW 09:17, October 31, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah... I don't think that's right. Aizen created the espada. Aaroneiro might have been a natural arrancar but he wasn't an "espada". That concept didn't exist before Aizen. That much I am sure off. 09:21, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

Only confirmed espada created with teh Hogyoku is Grimmjow. Starrk was an arrancar before be joined up but might have been "improved" don't know. Nnoitra too was an espada and an arrancar before the Hogyoku was recovered. Since he was no. 9 back when Nel was no. 3 and Aizen still hadn't gotten his hands on the Hogyoku. Aaroneiro was the last of the "original" espada. So we can be fairly sure he wasn't created with the Hogyoku. Here ends my knowledge. I am actually surprised I knew this much given how little I care about the whole arrancar thing. Tinni 09:21, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

I know this was never confirmed, but I always got the impression that Nnoitra and so on were all made into arrancar by Aizen even though it wasn't by the Hogyoku. So I know Grimmjow was the only one that we know was created by the Hogyoku but Starrk and Aaroneiro were both arrancar before Aizen found them. As for him creating the Espada, the Espada have always existed, thats what the Privaron Espada are, the old Espada who were kicked out by Aizen. BollyW 09:35, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

No that's what I mean. He came in created a first group of espada and then continued to play with their ranks until he got the line-up he did now. Before Aizen came to Heuco Mundo there was no espada. The Privion espada were still espada under Aizen. There has never been a group called the espada who have not served Aizen as far I can tell. I.e. Barragan didn't have "the espada", they weren't a group that existed before Aizen but Aizen has gone through several versions of the espada. Tinni 09:54, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

Ah see I thoughtthat the Espada had always existed, but they weren't really that great because those like Barragan and Starrk didn't really know about them because of the size of Hueco Mundo. So Aizen recruited more aggressively to really get the most powerful hollows in the Espada. But now that I think about it properly it makes a lot more sense that Aizen has just had several incarnations of the espada ever. Thanks. BollyW 10:08, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

Btw, the ONLY way Aizen even turned any of the "created" espada into what they were, was by the use of the Hogyoku. Barragan actually was originally king of Hueco Mundo, once Aizen came and challenged him, he wanted to keep his reign and tried to defy Aizen, however, he lost. That is why in the very end of his life, Barragan said he was sorry he couldn't be the one to kill Aizen. Now for Starrk, he actually was as strong as he could ever be, even after meeting Aizen, i doubt he changed Starrk at all. The one thing Starrk wanted was a home, with "family" and friends, so he wouldn't be alone anymore, since he killed everything around him due to his power. And yes, there was nothing known as "espada" until Aizen came, he created the class, and the system that they ended up living by in Hueco Mundo, before that system there was only a king, and that was it. Aizen already had the idea of creating an army even before entering Hueco Mundo, and upon arrival got started creating powerful beings and recruiting the rest. I believe the best way to tell if they were created by Aizen, is if they are shown as a regular hollow/arrancar, before meeting Aizen, then shown in a different form afterwords. keep the names coming =) and i'd love to have a page with a list eventually. Bk1217 10:30, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

No, that is not right. Aizen took over from Barragan many years before his defection from Soul Society. Notice that during Nnoitra's flash back Las Noches already has a roof and false sunlight (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/294/12/, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/295/01/). Aizen created both. Back then Nnoitra was no. 9 and Nel was no. 3. Neither were created with the Hogyoku as Aizen didn't have that back then. That was "years" ago. I.e. years before the current story started. Indeed in the anime Dordonii actually explains that he and others who were espada with him were aware that if the Hogyoku was ever recovered, all who were espada before would be useless. He also makes clear that the espada are Aizen's loyal servants(http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/254/07/), sort of like his royal guards. So really, I am not sure what you are getting at. Aizen came, he saw, he conquered, then he went about forming the espada. Initially it was probably just pseudo arrancars he gathered from around Heuco Mundo, he might have turned a few hollows into arrancar using other methods(http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/25/19/) or simply perfected the pseudo arrancars and then when he got the Hogyoku he started making arrancars using that and I imagine also strengthening existing arrancars using it. Those who made the cut became the espada we know, those who didn't were either demoted or otherwise disposed off. Final thing to remember, between the time Aizen defeated from soul society (August) to when the war starts (October) is a very short amount of time and even Aizen could accomplish so much in that time. Starrk is the only espada known to have been recruited after Aizen defected and even he may well have been "strengthened" with teh Hogyoku. We don't know. Wonderweiss is the only arrancar we saw being created with the Hogyoku. Tinni 12:32, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

actually u are wrong. Aizen never went to Hueco Mundo at any other time until AFTER he stole the Hogyoku. Then he started creating. and the only way to do this was with the tool the Hogyoku. now about Barragan, and starrk, BOTH of these were recruited without needing to "create" them. You can see Barragan's story starting from http://www.narutowire.com/Bleach-380/manga/67ff3fa72fc6df817125/ and ending with http://www.narutowire.com/Bleach-380/manga/67ff3fa72fc6df817125/. This story tells of how Barragan was the king of Hueco Mundo BEFORE Aizen and company arrived. As well as shows that Las Noches, ALREADY EXISTED. Aizen just took it as his new "castle" so to speak. One of the ways Aizen got his followers was his zanpaktou's special ability, which you see Aizen use during Barragan's story. http://www.narutowire.com/Bleach-380/manga/67ff3fa72fc6df817125/ shows how not all of the espada were completely loyal to Aizen. Barragan was looking to kill Aizen someday and reclaim his rightful place on the throne. Nnoitra's flashback was during some point in which Aizen already came to Las Noches, and created the espada. During that time there were quarrels between seated espada which led to changes. This did not happen "years ago". It happened after Aizen and company set foot in Hueco Mundo. The Hogyoku was a tool to manipulate hollows. created by Urahara apparently for multiple purposes. He created it during research of hollowfication, but it can apparently do much more then that, it can strengthen a hollow as well. There are also the natural ways of strengthening a hollow. Have them absorb enough souls/kill enough souls to move up the chain and become much stronger then the others. http://www.narutowire.com/Bleach-380/manga/67ff3fa72fc6df817125/ as a couple of espada did prior to Aizen gathering them. Bk1217 13:18, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

Notice how he was wearing his glasses and had his hair the way he used have it as a captain back when he met Barragan. He had this planned long before. Dude he destroyed his glasses and changed his hair style as he was defecting. Why would he put them back on just before he went and recruited Barragan? Also, are you seriously suggested Aizen did all that in two months? Plus Nnoitra actually said "years" (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/292/07/), "How many years has it been since you(Nel) left Las Noches". So, no, Aizen has been operating in Heuco Mundo/Las Noches for years. YEARS not two months. Tinni 14:28, October 31, 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, how could Aizen call Fura to his rescue if THAT's the first time he set foot in Heuco mundo. That's some really muddled logic going on there. Anyway, Las Noche and the espada did not happen in two months, it happened over many, many years and that's just the way it is. Tinni 14:34, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

Aizen started his plan AT LEAST 110 years ago (Turn Back the Pendulum arc) and went to Hueco Mundo after events that happened in TBtP arc seeing as Ichimaru and Tosen are already captains. And Ichimaru was still a kid at TBtP, but when they are seen in Barragan's flashback, Ichimaru looks same as he looks today so I guess they went to Hueco Mundo about 70-90 years ago for the first time. Ergroilnin 21:27, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can from what I remember...ALL the current espada and Fraccion were ALIVE (except maybe Wonderweiss) as HOLLOWS before Aizen arrived in Hueco Mundo. However they were only hollows. That includes Starrk and Barragan...then after Aizen's arrival they were MADE (and presumably strengthened into Arrancar by the use of Aizen and the Hogyoku. You need to separate the words arrancar and espada. Espada is nothing more than a ranking system to classify who the strongest is. Presumably to keep them fighting, training, eating hollows, etc to grow stronger (otherwise there would be no need for the difference in numbers). This obviously worked for motivation as it was joked about when Grimmjow was demoted and subsequently when he killed to get his number back, and Nnoitra always trying to become stronger. Arrancar is a hollow that was able to remove their mask, I may not remember but were Arrancar ever seen or mentioned before the arrival of Aizen?

I am pretty sure that there were plenty of natural arrancars in Hueco Mundo before Aizen's arrival and Hougyoku use. Seeing as Grand Fisher wasn't made by Hougyoku but by destroying his mask by Ice Ringer. But then again they weren't nearly as strong as arrancars made by Hougyoku (aside from exceptions like Starrk). Ergroilnin 23:29, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

Since when Renji explains them to Ichigo he says "There always have been a small number of incomplete ones"-- at least Arrancar existing before is confirmed. That it has been years since Neliel left also is shown-- as well as those silly clouds:3 But while I do see those other time things that Tinni says, but while the Espada were (from Don's time) his loyal servants, it still does not mean that Espada hadn't existed before Aizen. While when Urahara and Isshin are talking he refers to the Grand Fisher as being at a completely different lvl (Ch 188,11), as well as them not having developed much in the last few decades--a.k.a they had developed b4 those last few decades.So it probably does make when Aizen started visiting Hueco Mundo (unless the nauturals found a new method themselfs that had them getting stronger till they stopped at a few decades ago..) from at least a few decades ago.

So that Arrancar existed before Aizen is confirmed, that he had been there yrs before he left Soul Society is at least confirmed by the Neliel part (with strong supporting evidance from the other things,that he was the one to str. them at least a few decades ago is probable, but that the group of mock-Arrancar did NOT have a ranking system they called the "Espada" is less probable. Afterall, since hollows already have enough of a feel for rankings-- looking at least somewhat respectful to the Gillian that appeared early on(or at least they cheered when it came out with their hands up in the air..), (even among normal hollows the Grand Fisher sure sounded like he felt he was strong), well basically, I don't see why they wouldn't have come up with a ranking once they actually had mock-Arrancar as well.  I think it's a bit more likely than not because of the name being in spanish as well--- why would Aizen name his group Espada unless he was going with old conventions. Ah well I have to get to class so, if I missed something then sorry about thatWorldninja

Would using the Hōgyoku on a shinigami create an Inner Hollow?
We've only seen the Hōgyoku used to create/perfect arrancar and stabilize those who are already undergoing Hollowification.

In the cases of the Vizard and Ichigo, both were transforming into hollows, and would have turned completely into hollows had the process not been stopped. Considering the Hōgyoku "breaks down the barrier between hollows and shinigami" and doesn't seem to turn one group entirely into the other, do you think using the Hōgyoku to gain hollow powers, not to reverse or stabilize a hollowification already in progress, would create an inner hollow? Gamerxl 15:13, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Well this is a hard question. As you stated the Hogyoku has only been known for making imperfect arrancar complete (by Aizen) and stabilizing shinigami already under the process of hollowfication (by Urahara). Its role so far has only been stabilization either way. Which would make one think that a incomplete arrancar or a shinigami in the middle of hollowfication is not going to result in a complete transformation on its own. As we have yet to gain any information that would suggest that they do. So its like the Hogyoku can't cause the transformation (or possibly can) but maybe able to complete it by breaking the barrier. As Urahara tried to use it to reverse the process of hollowfication but was not able to do that. Apparently the Hogyoku cant do that. It would also suggest that since Ichigo didn't undergo the process with the Hogyoku's assistance, Ichigo maybe unique in that the way he inadvertently gained hollow powers didn't require the breaking down of the barrier as he gained both powers around the same time with the shinigami powers being dominant obviously, there was no barrier at the moment, seeing as he was neither a hollow nor a shinigami before the transformations. Now whether the inner hollow can be created by the hogyoku doesn't seem to be likely. The resulting hollowfication seems to cause that, as ichigo has an inner hollow and the vizard themselves have stated that they had inner hollows as well and had to subdue them. the inner hollow seems to be more to do with the soul gaining hollow powers, which is the negative version of a soul. It seems that if a inner hollow is part of the soul and therefore the contrast to the spirit of the zanpakuto, such as ichigo's that would seem reflective of the vizards as well. It would seem the hogyoku is nothing more then the catalyst to completetion of a already ongoing process, at least from what we currently know.Salubri 15:40, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Its looks that the hogyouku mixes personalities... anyone with his inner hollow and her own personality. without the needing of asleep the "inner hollow or the inner shinigami" i think.

Im not sure of what your saying.Salubri 16:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

anyones unconscionous inner hollow personality and his natural conscience( shinigami's)

so... the vizards for example can be shinji's personality mixed with his inner hollow's.. i mean ,now, sinji isnt "the sinji" from the pendulum arc.

is sinji "mixed" with his inner personality...

imagine ichigo's personality mixed with his inner hollows... making a new being. one conscience. personality.

Hexanort 20:44, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Where would you get that idea from. As shinji is the same as he is now as he was then. Despite the change in his powers and partially his appearance. Thats not even speculation that kind of doesn't make any sense cause I know even after you explained it im still somewhat confused from where that concept even came from or even more so what it had to do with the main question.Salubri 02:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Shinji seems to be pretty similar to himself 100 years ago, and Ichigo doesn't seem to take after his own inner hollow.

As a side note, is it too much to ask for a readable attempt at English? I have no problem with shorthand or abbreviations, but you seem to be struggling very hard to write anything other then unrelated dependent clauses... Gamerxl 16:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

well, its hard to explain things like this. so the english its my second... language... XD. Hexanort 21:41, 21 July 2009 (UTC)