Forum:Stronger Ban Kai so far (Thread Closed)

Well since I'm new here and I've got some time to kill, which do you think is the strongest Ban Kai so far? I think those who have revealed their Ban Kai are Soifon (Jakuhō Raikōben), Byakuya Kuchiki (Senbonzakura Kageyoshi), Sajin Komamura (Kokujō Tengen Myō'ō), Tōshirō Hitsugaya (Daiguren Hyōrinmaru), Mayuri Kurotsuchi (Konjiki Ashisogi Jizō ), Ichigo Kurosaki(Tensa Zangetsu), Renji Abarai(Hihiō Zabimaru) and finally Ikkaku Madarame (Ryūmon Hōzukimaru). If they were to go head to head against each other or in perfect conditions, who would be the best of the best? OdoriZame 13:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I'd like to add Kaname Tōsen (Enma Kōrogi)

Well, that's a tough one right there, Tosen's probably has to be the most effective bein' that it strips the target of all but one sense, but then there's Ichigo's which allows him to compress his spiritual pressure, allowing him to fight at speeds that surpasses anyone in the Gotei 13, even Byakuya, who is a master of the Flash Step. Not only that, but the Bankai also gives him absolute control of his increased, already massive power. Combined with the ability to enhance his blows with the power of Getsuga Tensho, Tensa Zangetsu probably has to be one of the most, if not the most powerful Bankai there is, until of course, Gin, Aizen, Shunsui and or Yamamoto use their Bankais. Kaihedgie 15:14, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Ichigo does have an amazing Ban Kai but it seems to have weakened (Either that or he lost the knowledge of how to put it into it's best use)Tosen's Ban Kai was impressive but it left the victim with the sense of touch and it's weakness being that if the opponent were to catch hold of Suzumushi hilt will gain immunity from it's effects is a let down. OdoriZame 18:42, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I would say this is a hard one I wont go as far as trying to compare captains but just talking about Bankai I think i might have some ideas.


 * 1) Senbonzakura Kageyoshi is powerful in 3 separate techniques so that goes without saying, though im sure there is more too it then what we have seen especially Shukei which we have only seen once, I think there is more to it then whats been shown.
 * 2) Daiguren Hyorinmaru is the most powerful Ice zanpakuto in soul society. Ice, water, and weather. I mean three devastating aspects and not to mention Hitsugaya himself is still young so his power is still immature.
 * 3) Kokujo Tengen Myo'o is extremely devastating almost to the point of overkill. Once again I feel there is more to see here what little 2 times we have seen the giant he does a little bit of physical attacks but I don't know.

Having said that while I believe Tensa Zangetsu is a uniquely interesting, I know that ichigo isn't using all its capabilities he just needs more time to master it. Enma Korogi is pretty good too but its just not clicking with me yes it has the weakness but thats not really the reason why because the likelihood that someone would find it out like kenpachi did is small. Hihio Zabimaru while is a pretty amazing too but once again Renji like Ichigo needs more time to master it. Konjiki Ashisogi Jizo is a pretty cool name but I am under the impression we have seen everything it can do and compared to the others im not sure it stands up. Ryumon Hozukimaru has had little time seen and it maybe be pretty devestating but until more is shown of it I don't know, but i think just like Renji and Ichigo that Ikkaku needs more time to master it fully. Then there is Jakuho Raikoben was kinda disappointing for me the shape and what it does, just seemed like the most unnecessary and least thought out of the bankai's. I dont see how it matches its Shikai also even as diverse as the zanpakuto's are it really seems out of place. Not to mention considering the amount of power it takes to use it, how heavy and unmaneuverable it is and from what it looks like a one shot deal, its virtually useless it seems. It also throws Soifon around like a ragdoll if she isn't tied down.Salubri 21:39, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you on the fact that Senbonzakura Kageyoshi is definately the strongest mastered Bankai so far. Byakuya is without a doubt the most skilled captain with Ban Kai we've seen. I think that maybe Daiguren Hyorinmaru maybe the Ban Kai with the highest potential and could easily beat most Ban Kai and would even give Senbonzakura a run for it's money. Now on to Kokujo Tengen Myo'o, I honestly think that if it does not posses a higher speed level then what we've already seen then it's full destructive power will never be truly realized. I would imagine a faster Ban Kai like Tensa Zangetsu just running through it without a moments notice and striking down Komamura in seconds. Tensa Zangetsu was very hard to decide for me. Yes, Ichigo has not fully mastered it but he managed to out run Senbonzakura Kageyoshi the first time he used it. I don't know why but after the Souls Society arc, Tensa Zangetsu seemed to have lost it's kick. I can;t really say anything about Ryūmon Hōzukimaru though, because we've only seen it once and all it does so far is glow in the dark. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it's weak, I'm just saying from what we can determine so far, this is the weakest Ban Kai for me. Hihiō Zabimaru is a generic form of Ban Kai, being big, heavy and slow. I agree that it needs time to show true potential. Konjiki Ashisogi Jizo was...well it was Ban Kai... It didn't really give me the same excitement that other Ban Kai did because all it has done so far is spew poison gas and create a small barricade of blades. I would think that any strong long range attack is possible of beating it (As proven by Uryu Ishida) Which most Ban Kai (Even Ryūmon Hōzukimaru) have. Jakuho Raikoben is the most limited Ban Kai. It only fires one shot and though it's magnitude is great, it causes a nasty recoil. And if it were unsuccessful in destoying it's target, then what? (One a side note, Hihiō Zabimaru's Hikōtsu Taihō is very similar and may be able to fire multiple shots if mastered) Finally we have Enma Korogi which is for me, the weakest Ban Kai. Even Konjiki Ashisogi Jizo would be able to poison Tosen in such a consealed space. May Final list would have to be:

1.Daiguren Hyorinmaru 2.Senbonzakura Kageyoshi 3.Tensa Zangetsu 4.Kokujo Tengen Myo'o 5.Hihiō Zabimaru 6.Jakuho Raikoben 7.Ryūmon Hōzukimaru 8.Konjiki Ashisogi Jizo 9.Enma Korogi

I love to see more thoughts on the subject if possible :) OdoriZame 17:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Yea I can see your point but I can't include Tensa Zangetsu cause as you state. He gets faster with it and if you notice at first he was too fast for Senbonzakura Kageyoshi but soon as Byakuya starts to use his hands to control it that speed means nothing as ichigo starts to slow down. Then when Byakuya gets into the various techniques you don't even see the speed ichigo was displaying anymore. While later in other fights he uses the speed but it is either easily matched by his opponent or they overshadow him. Speed is all well and good but it doesn't always win the day, raw destructive power can trump it regardless of how fast one is which has been shown. Now Kokujo Tengen Myo'o may not be the fastest but It would seem it has its advantages and its place we can't really speak on what its full capability is because we haven't seen it.Salubri 18:12, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I was about to write something like "are you guys crazy? Of course it's Yama-ji's, Unohana, Kyoraku and Ukitake's in that order.. but then, I saw the "so far" part.. lol Well, I think Ichigo's bankai is the strongest hand-to-hand type. I bet it'd kick Ikaku's ass no problem. We haven't seen the true potential of the others besides Renji's and Byakuya. But I'd say Byakuya for what I've seen so far.. Laters Deimonos 15:19, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I think we can establish that Senbonzakura is (If not the strongest) one of the strongest Ban Kai out there. But on the argument of Tensa Zangetsu VS Kokujō Tengen Myō'ō. Yes, Tengen Myō'ō has shown us it can be the most destructive Ban Kai but it is genericly big, heavy and slow like other Ban Kai. How can it exert it's full power on a target moving to fast for it. Sure Tensa Zangetsu is easily out matched by Senbonzakura in speed, but it is certainly faster then Tengen Myō'ō and if Tensa Zangetsu can evade all of it's strongest attacks and reach Komamura within seconds, then I can say with confidants that it is stronger. OdoriZame 13:01, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Thats all depending on the assumption that Ichigo in bankai can take Komamura which im not confident that he can.Salubri 15:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about that, Salubri. Sure, Ichigo is the main character and has astonishing growth rate. He became so strong in 2 days, acquired bankai and was able to fight Byakuya on equal foot. His fights with Byakuya and Zaraki ended in draws. And that was before becoming a full fledged Vizard. He's probably stronger than a few captains now. Ok, they probably grew a bit stronger over the months but not compared to Ichigo's improvements. Dunno if he could bash Komamura but in my opinion, the only ones I'm certain are still stronger than Kurosaki are Yamamoto, Kyoraru, Ukitake and Unohana. That's my 2 cents. Deimonos 12:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

No question that Yamamoto, Kyoraru, Ukitake and Unohana are the strongest. But I dont think Ichigo's Vizard training had any effect on his Ban Kai OdoriZame 08:07, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Well it has no effect on his bankai per se, but it does make him more powerful and thus his power while in bankai increases. I think Ichigo's bankai is the strongest we have seen, consider that it ripped Byakuya when under the control of Hollow Ichigo who showed that its power is greater then Senbonzakura Kageyoshi when used correctly. Remember that Ichigo still has to learn how to properly use his bankai where as Byakuya and most other captains have had decades to master theirs. BollyW 14:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Once again off topic, we are talking about current bankai that is shown and known not the potential of ichigo's eventually some time in the future. Also we are talking about bankai alone without help from extra power, being a vizard or anything so no Tensa Zangetsu is not the strongest we have seen, as we have seen it beaten so many times and he has no more then the speed enhancement and energy attack. As stated before Daiguren Hyorinmaru and Senbonzakura Kageyoshi are the most powerful we have see to date.Salubri 14:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Im seeing so many people shrugging off Enma Kōrogi, it’s one of if not the most diffcult ban kai to counter. Close your eyes and hit your computer, esay right? Cuz you know were it is. It sounds like that’s what you thinking enma dose. Takes away our sences but keeps the target were it is. Rember tosen is an assine (in his sneak atack way of fighting) and he is now slouch when it comes too speed. Now close your eyes and try to hit something that’s jumping around and stricking out at you. Hard right? That’s the power of enma korogi. There are only two ppl and zanpatos that I think could efffectivly counter it.

Ichgos: as a mele style zanpato not knowing were to atack pretty much makes your wepon useless. Ichgo is a speed monkey though and adapets pretty okay I suppose so its posable he could counter enma korogi befor tosen could get to him

Byakuya Kuchikis: his is the only real counter that I can think of just becase of its mass effect, byakuya opprates his an kai by a kind of psychic power I suppose you could call it, as well he is a master at flash steps. Basicly with a ban kai fight betweenn these two slashing in the dark becomes effective if your slashing in the dark 100000000 different ways. --Trippyfalls 15:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * @Salubri: Tensa Zangetsu is still more powerful than Senbonzakura Kageyoshi because as seen when used by hollow Ichigo, it defeated Byakuya even when in Senkei form. At that time Hollow Ichigo clearly states "Watch closely Ichigo, this is how you use bankai". The obvious implication of this is that with Ichigo's current power, his bankai can be used to defeat Byakuya's. My other reason for holding up Tensa Zangetsu as the most powerful bankai is to do with the fact that its shikai is so powerful. Ichigo in shikai drew with Zaraki minus eyepatch, something that only a released Nnoitra has been able do. If, in shikai, Zangetsu could provide enough power to Ichigo to nearly equal the released 5th Espada, then his bankai must be incredible. BollyW 23:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Im really not understanding why u keep bringing up something not revelent to the conversation. We are talking about bankai on there own not enhanced. Now your not even talking about ichigo, but regardless he didn't beat him in that form either it was nothing more then hollow ichigo using bankai at the same parameters as ichigo was previously with more skill then him but thats not what beat byakuya. It ended in a draw as both fell with byakuya giving the win to ichigo. His shikai is not the most powerful either. Despite that Ichigo battle with zaraki was a draw, with zaraki naming him the winner. Nnorita didnt even survive that encounter with zaraki but before that Nnorita totally obliterated Ichigo while he was in bankai so he is no way near equal to Nnorita and neither in the same league as kenpachi who could take nnorita. Which gets back to many point with simply using his bankai he couldn't beat Nnorita, Grimmjaw or Ulquiorra which totally takes him out of the running as each case sans nnorita, was vizard mask enhanced which is not part of the conversation where having here.Salubri 00:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok I think my point is relavent so i'll try and explain it a bit better. We are talking purely about the bankai regardless of the weilder. So, If Ichigo doesn't use his bankai properly, that doesn't make Tensa Zangetsu weaker than Senbonzakura. My understanding of how his inner hollow works is that those times he was possessed, his reiatsu didn't increase, it just changed flavour. Hollow Ichigo used the power of Tensa Zangetsu to overpower Byakuya, the only reason the battle ended as a draw is because Ichigo rebelled and regained control.


 * With Nnoitra, first Ichigo was exhausted and injured from his fight with Grimmjow. He had very little reiatsu left to fight with. You can claim that Ichigo isn't in the same league as Kenpachi but that belies the fact that Ichigo's reiatsu in shikai was equal to Kenpachi's without his eyepatch, as shown in their fight. You've said before that power levels matter less in Bleach then in Dragon Ball for example, what matters is how one fighters skills match up to his/her opponent. I think Kenpachi had the perfect skills to fight Nnoitra with. Imagine if Kenpachi had fought Zommari instead of Byakuya. Zommari would have destroyed him, does that mean that Kenpachi is weaker than the 7th Espada?


 * However that's off topic. My point is that in the times we've seen bankai's in competition, it seems to me that Tensa Zangetsu overpowered Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. Consider, had Ichigo slashed open Byakuya the first time he held his sword to his throat, the battle would have probably ended there. The increased speed and strength that Tensa Zangetsu grants to Ichigo I think makes it the most powerful. Senbonzakura Kageyoshi and Daiguren Hyourinmaru come closely behind, however they are both useful in different circumstances and against different opponents.


 * Plus I think Tensa Zangetsu is the coolest looking :P BollyW 04:38, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Once again so totally way off topic. If the conversation was about potential you might have a argument but as it stands Tensa Zangetsu is not in top running, and personally i think even if he knew how to use it i doubt it would be because im sure there are others from those we havent seen yet which would totally overshadow it as well. Despite the fact that Senbonzakura Kageyoshi is far more versatile and highly destructive. Unlike tensa zangetsu which is dependent entirely on ichigo engaging an opponent. You yourself even stated a downside but being all exhausted is not an excuse the fact is he lost. grimmjaw, ulquirra, nnorita all beat him, this conversation is far to drawn considering there is not one of those instances where he could fight using his bankai alone and win, where as any other bankai user to date has only that to rely on. which goes back to the point of the conversation. But your entitled to your choice. but my point being its not about enhancement of potential but what has been shown so far.Salubri 06:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Please try not to avoid enhancements. If the user needs anything more than Ban Kai training or some fighting experience of his/her Ban Kai's limit, than I think it isn't really his/her Ban Kai's strenght.

Enma Kōrogi is strong, no doubt there, but it's the weakest among the rest. I think Senbonzakura Kageyoshi, Kokujō Tengen Myō'ō, Daiguren Hyōrinmaru, Konjiki Ashisogi Jizō and Ryūmon Hōzukimaru will be able to successfully counter it. But I don't know about Tensa zangetsu though. Ichigo would be running around shooting Getsuga Tenshō every trying to find Tosen.

On the whole Ichicgo Vs Byakuya discussion, Byakuya's Ban Kai is infact stronger. Without a sudden hollow induced burst of power, Byakuya would have butchered Ichigo. I mean we are talking about Ban Kai's and not about people. When it comes to the Espada, Ichigo can't fight Grimmjow without the mask on and you know it. Grimmjow was only scorched slightly after having hit directly with Getsuga Tensho. On on the subject of "Well Byakuya fought the 7th and Ichigo fought with the 6th Espada" Byakuaya didn't use Ban Kai immediately. If he had, Zommari would been able to put a scratch on him.

I heard something on Dragon ball. I'm not against Dragon ball, but it has not much to do with Bleach does it. OdoriZame 13:03, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Byakuya's Bankai does seem the strongest. It can be used for offense and defense simultaneously, and is very adaptable to different situations (through is size and different forms). Kaname's is also very useful. Ichigo's seems like it has a pretty strong effect, though he only seems to defeat anyone with it when he's using hollow powers. Gamerxl 15:25, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Ichigo's Ban Kai is pretty decent but it isn't mastered. Tensa Zangetsu compresses his spiritual energy making him faster and stronger. Along with that, Getsuga Tensho's power is increased as well. But these increases in power are only to a certain extent, plus the fact that he's Ban Kai requires more melee forms of attack (other than Getsuga Tensho) is less appealing. I think that if he actually tried to train at it he could become stronger, but for now it isn't the strongest. Or at least that's what I think OdoriZame 18:54, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Senbonzakura Kageyoshi (Byakuya's) and Daiguren Hyorinmaru (Hitsugaya's) are the currently shown strongest to me. Kageyoshi is what I like to refer to as a whole package: a powerful overwhelming Bankai with both powerful offensive techniques as well as a strong defense. Plus, since Byakuya has mastered it, he can perform many different kinds of moves and counter attacks. Daiguren Hyorinmaru is strong because not only does it control the element of Ice, but it can control water in all three states: solid (ice), liquid (water), and gas (clouds and mist). I think both are the most powerful because they focus more on versatility than just power. It makes them more adaptable to combat situations and can give them many ways to attack and defend.--Moe1216 21:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I'll agree to disagree, I think we've struggled to set up proper goalposts or parameters for deciding and really, it does come down a little bit to personal opinion. For example I think the speed that Tensa Zangetsu gives Ichigo is more dangerous than the combined defense and offense of Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. However I understand why you think that Senbonzakura is more powerful. In any case it really doesn't matter that much, I'll leave it there. BollyW 06:43, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

What if Senbonzakura Kageyoshi and Daiguren Hyōrinmaru had a fight? In my own opinion I think that even though Senbonzakura Kageyoshi is mastered, Hyōrinmaru would be able to freeze all the sword petals. Any thoughts? OdoriZame 07:45, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well....I think Byakuya would defeat Hitsugaya, whether that means that Senbonzakura wou defeat Hyorinmaru is a different argument really. I say that because while Hitsugaya only ever seems to use the power of his sword, Byakuya makes frequent strategic use of kido and complex flash steps. However if it was limited to the bankai only I agree, I think the ice of Daiguren Hyorinmaru would defeat the blades of Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. Not by much though. BollyW 11:16, 19 July 2009 (UTC)