Forum:Deceased vs unconfirmed

Enough!
Okay, enough is enough. This topic about the status of various character has been talked to death. Please DO NOT make any new thread on this topic. If you feel that anything has been left unsaid, and given the size of this thread after merging I highly doubt that, then just add it here. But for gods sake stop cluttering up the forum with the the same topic over and over and over again! Tinni 13:25, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

List of Arrancar
Ok I for one am really, really sick of having to revert people's edits to the status of Grimmjow, Loly and Menoly. Last we saw Gimmjow he was breathing. He might have stopped breathing since but we don't know that. Until we get confirmation he is alive. On Loly and Menoly, they did in fact appear in volume sketchs for volume 39. Ishida saved Menoly from falling by pinning her to the wall by the seat of her pants and Loly, as far as I know, was just brushed aside by Yammy. Those two are most definitely not dead yet! Dordonii Alessandro Del Socacchio, Cirucci Thunderwitch and Rudobōn are probably dead but frankly I don't care about the arrancar enough to insist one way or the other. So enough with the changing status. If you feel strongly that they are dead, make your case here and we'll consider changing. But no more just editing. I honestly have better things to do (see Forum:Volume_a_week_club) then continuously revert premature changes. Tinni 17:05, October 26, 2009 (UTC)

I posted the following on the Espadas talk:page, but no one answered so I moved it here.

We all know Gantenbainne is alive, but can't we say Dordonii & Circucci are deceased. There deaths were pretty well shown. There is no reason to say presumably, because the deaths of both the third & first Espadas weren't confirmed any more then theres was.

These two are the only one I feel should be change. Grimmjow, Menoly, Loly, & Rudobon in my opinion are fine the way they are. So, can I get any reasons why Circucci & Dordoni have to stay presumably deceased? Minato88 19:38, October 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * It was heavily implied that Ciriucci & Dordonii were killed by the Exequias, so it is likely that they are indeed dead. I'd agree with that. But before anyone goes changing the article, I would like to know if there is anyone who can make an argument that they are still alive, or what reason there is for doubting their deaths? I'm sure there was a valid reason why it has been left as unconfirmed for all this time. --Yyp 19:45, October 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * Naw, I doubt there is, unless, as I mentioned before (except is was with Starrk and Harribel), they turn up later alive, or if someone shows up and declares them to be alive. Arrancar109 19:53, October 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * These are some very good questions. While it is true that the last we saw of these people: Coyote Starrk, Lilynette Gingerback, Tia Hallibel, Apache, Mila-Rose, Sun-Sun, Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez, Tesla, Rudobone, Cirucci Sanderwicci, and Dordonii Alessandro Del Socacchio, Menoly, and Loly; they were either unconscious, or still alive, but their pages either list them as unconfirmed or Deceased.

My opinion is how are we to know if Starrk/Lilynette and Hallibel are deceased, if the last time we saw them, they were jsut falling out of the sky. They could be unconscious, and for one, we never saw their bodies hit the ground. So, they should be unconfirmed. Grimmjow, we all know is alive. The last time he was seen, he was being protected by Ichigo. Still breathing.

Menoly and Loly, although some people think they are dead, Yammy did not kill them. Like someone said, Menoly was resting against Uryû's legs, and Loly was unconscious with Yasutora.

Tesla, the last we saw him, he was laying o9n the ground, crying over Nnoitra's death. So yeah, he's alive.

Rudôbone, nobody cares.

Apache, Mila-Rose, and Sun-Sun, Yamamoto even said he did not attack them with enough force to kill them, and just because Hallibel states that they are dead (and I'm not saying anything bad about Hallibel, cause I LOVE her), Uh, HELLO! Is she a doctor? I think not. They are still unconscious, as the others are and have yet to wake back up/come out of their comas.

Dordonii and Cirucci, they were executed by Rudôbone. End of story. I mean, come in! In one episode, you can see shadowy figures of their bodies hanging from Szayel Aporro's ceiling! Nobody else is killed before this! And Szayel Aporro WAS the one who dispatched the Exequias!

I think I have made my point!

Kiran.

sigh Once again, Apache, mila-rose and sun-sun were confirmed to be dead by Ichimaru Gin during the Arrancar Encyclopedia segement at the end of episode 231. His exact words were "They can't rest in peace unless we do this". I don't know about you, but I have never heard the term rest in peace being applied to living character. If the anime called time of death, we can follow suit. As for Starrk and Harribel, show me something that is not wishful thinking and I will entertain the notion that they are alive. However, reading the manga objectively makes it very clear that those to are dead and finished. I agree, however, that Dordonii and Cirucci should be listed as deceased. Tinni 09:08, October 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Thankyou for agreeing with me about Cirucci and Dordonii, and I can agree with you on the Fraccion part, but asd for Hallibel and Starrk, where does it say that they are actually deceased? Sure, we see them falling out of the sky, but how does that say that they are for sure dead?

And what about Tesla, Menoly and Loly?

Kiran.

Last time we saw Tesla he was crying because Nnoitra just died, i.e. he was very much alive. He might have died since then but we can't be sure. I have mentioned this already but I'll repeat, Menoly has been shown in the volume sketches for volume 39, she was saved from falling by Ishida. Who pinned her to the wall with an arrow. Loly was just brushed aside by Yammy. We don't even know how severely she was injured. As such their status is clearly "unconfirmed" but most likely alive but injured. Starrk wasn't just about falling from the sky, he fell from the sky after receiving a sever injury to his hollow hole AND having a dramatic end of life flashback. He is dead as dead can be. Even his words as he fell showed clearly that he knew his life was coming to an end. Harribel was stabbed twice by Aizen and the second time wasn't just a "stab through the shoulder" he stabbed through the shoulders and slashed to such an extent that there was blood splatter consistent with a sever slash. The higher quality scans for Maximum7 showed this clearly and Mashiro Kuno said she was dead. We will take the word of a in-manga character unless we have compelling reason to doubt them. We do not in this case. Harribel and Starrk are dead and their status is not up for debate. Any further discussion on their status will have to happen on the forum topic on this issue Forum:Starrk_and_Harribel. Tinni 13:04, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * On top of what Tinni just said, it is clear from the scans that Starrk's body is beginning to disintegrate. His clothes are falling apart & mask remains are completely shattered (from an attack that didn't go near his head, or injure his face in any way). --Yyp 13:31, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Like I said, I could care lessa bout Starrk/Lilynette... what I am focusing on is Hallibel and the fact that she is not dead!

Insisting she is alive isn't going to get her status changed unless you can show some compelling proof from the manga. In addition, like I said, her status is not up for discussion without further proof/development. Any further discussion on this topic will have to happen in the forums. Tinni 13:56, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, hey you, you! Yes, you! Stop that.

Oh, and until you can show me substantial evidence that she is dead dead dead stone cold dead, then i shall refuse to believe it!

I just have to say this: if Grimmjow is still alive, he's gonna be one pretty pissed of Espada. I mean, he's pretty well owned, and he just lying on his lonesome in the middle of Las Noches. Ichigo's probably gonna get back to FKT and then go "Oh, crap! Grimmjow!"

Espada
Let's stop beating around the bush here. The chances of either of those two to be alive is zero. It was heavily implied that they were killed by Exequias and it's been a long time since either of them were even mentioned. In addition, while going through the past chapters to find a reference, I noticed this panel http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/0/255/9. I don't think Apollo is the kind of person who would be doing an "extraction" in a manner that will keep Dordonii alive. So let's just drop this "presumbaly" business and called them deceased and change all pages that refer to them to deceased. When there really is a chance that the character may be alive, (e.g. Tesla, who we last saw severely injured and crying over Nnoitra but alive) I am all for them being listed as unconfirmed. But this case there is no chance and we should just stop pussy footing around the issue and just add the (Deceased) next to their name. Tinni 09:08, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, I just remembered that Aporro also said that he extracted Ishida's reitsu from Thunderwitch. So I am going to go ahead and changed them to deceased. This is "presumebly" and "unconfirmed" business has gone on long enough. Tinni 09:13, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Found the Thunderwitch reference http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/0/273/19. Aporro actually says she's dead. So it's settled. Tinni 09:24, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

Move Reason
Moved here from Talk:List_of_Arrancar just because it became long and bloated and more of a discussion about the status of various arrancar as opposed to what I originally created it, which was to tell people to stop messing with their statuses! Lastly, on the topic of Thunderwitch and Dordonii. I did go and track down the references for their death and they have now been listed as deceased. Above is the reasoning I listed in the Espada talk page, copied here for the sake of completeness. Tinni 14:47, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

Merging
I am merging a number of topic that essentially dealt with the same thing, the status of various espada. Tinni 13:14, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Tesla
I think it is safe to say Tesla is dead. He got cut in two for the most part, and was even shown "dying" feeling sad for the lost of his master. I think the whole "shedding a final tear" kinda puts him as deceased. Oh yeah, also on his page it is noted that Kenpachi deals Tesla a final blow. Which is pretty much what happened, since he got cut up by Kenpachi. Please change the status on the List of Arrancar page =)

This has been gone over a dozen time. Last time we saw Tesla he was alive and crying but severely injured. He might have died from his injuries since then but we never got any update on his status. He might be alive, he might be dead. We don't know as such his status his unconfirmed! The same applies for Grimmjow as well. For further information see Forum:Deceased_vs_unconfirmed. Tinni 04:54, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

Starrk and Harribel
Moved talk about their current status here. For the record, my position is: they are dead, get over it. Tinni 00:56, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Harribel
Firstly, I believe she is dead and I have no intention of feeding the delusion of Harribel fans. But there in lies the problem. Harribel fans do believe she's alive and despite Aizen saying he's never going to let her raise her sword to him again and Mashiro saying Aizen killed the last espada, the actual picture is just ambiguous enough for this to become a point of contention. So I propose a temporary protection on this page. The espada are all dead except Yammy and it doesn't look like we are about to get back to him any time soon. There should be no pressing need to modify this page and I just want to avoid any mess regarding people changing statuses. Tinni 07:23, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, Grimmjow is the only one whose fate isn't confirm or even hinted (why, who knows?), but yes, we went this way with Harribel's fraccion too: while verbal confirmation from other characters aren't entirely accurate, it's still much more accurate than generic fanboy/fangirlism, and, until proven otherwise, I'm pretty sure Harribel and her Fraccion are gonna stay dead. My only issue is the needless adding of Trivia "Yammy is the only one confirmed alive" or "Harribel is the most recent Espada to die", as I really don't see how those are relevant trivia anywhere. Arrancar109 07:27, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * IMO They aren't much of a trivia. Tinni 07:35, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * That's my point, so why add it? That's something that some of the other users here don't seem to get. Arrancar109 07:37, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Even as a fan of Harribel, I concur that I do think she's dead. People need to get over their fangirl/boy tendencies. Twocents 17:30, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ehh... I'm not sure. Aizen declared her dead, but he's falsely guessed people have died (like Momo) before. One gut-slash, which wasn't enough to stop her from fighting, then a stab in the shoulder. So while she's probably dead, I wouldn't be surprised if she's going to get some last words in. ZeroSD 23:31, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

If we have decided that other people are dead upon other characters' declarations (i.e. Harribel's Fraccion), then the fact that both Aizen says he took her out and Mashiro says he killed her should be considered sufficient proof, along with her collapse back to Earth. And this is coming from someone who likes Harribel, and who finds it annoying that she was killed without getting to show her more awesome powers that Toshiro hinted at earlier. I'm just being more realistic than some people are choosing to be. (And to be clear, this comment is not necessarily directed at you specifically, ZeroSD.) Twocents 00:09, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

I would like to point that Unohana said that she had to act quickly to save both Toshiro & Momo & if not for her, Momo & possibly Toshiro would have died. As far as Hallibel goes, Aizen struck her twice with 2 fatal looking wounds & even if she isn't dead I doubt any of the Shinigami or Vizards are going to help her so she might as well be dead(Poor Hallibel, I'm starting to not like Aizen). Minato88 02:19, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Stark and Halibel
I agree with your comment but we still don't know whether Stark or Halibel are dead.

We did see both of them fall down to the ground but we have not actually seen them disappear into 'dust,' like we saw with the other Espada.

And because it is not actually confirmed that either of them are in fact dead, there fates are currently unknown. I don't think that anyone should be jumping to conclusions just yet, they may be dead but unless we see solid proof of this (eg. them fading into dust like we saw with other Espada, or in Aaroniero's case a dead body), there should be no jumping to conclusions whether either is dead or not. Thats why I think that for the moment, they should be changed to 'Fate currently unknown.'

Don't also forget that this has happened over 3 chapters, so there will be allot of speculation into there whereabouts until we get to see further chapters.

Starrk fell to the ground with cracks fanning from his hole outwards, a major, major, major injury and we don't have to see his corpse to know that he probably died long before he hit the ground. Plus remember that dramatic flashback? Characters don't get that kind of dramatic flashback unless they are about to die. Harribel got slashed across the abdominal and Aizen stuck a sword in her shoulder and slashed while it was still inside her. He didn't just pull it out and make her fall. He said he was going to make sure she couldn't attack him again and Mashiro said she was dead. That's what we are basing status = dead on. Status = alive... wishful thinking. Tinni 00:56, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Dunno for sure; my take on it? If they're dead.....damn, if not, cool. Either way is fine with me; Starrk was killed by a senior captain, and made 4 captains (two of 'em vizards) use shikai, AND put up a good fight while doing so. As for Halibel, not so sure, but I won't be surprised if she does make at least one last comeback, and if she dies there, maybe we'll see her flashback. Now, if not, then just show me her flashback and I'll drop the matter completely. And by the way, Tinni, no disrespect, but you really should try NOT sounding like an asshole when you say stuff like that. Just sayin'. Krone8


 * Meh Tinni 02:51, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Starrk's death
How do we know that he is dead? He could be unconscious.

Sting! TenRyuoh! 21:09, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

True, but as Shunsui said, "if you win, you live, if you lose, you die". Krone8


 * Starrk stepped on a shadow during the Kageoni game and didn't die and was below Kyoraku during Takaoni and was perfectly able to counter, so I think Captain Kyoraku was using a figure of speech. From a writer's standpoint, it sounds a lot better than "if you lose, you get hurt depending on the severity of your loss." Starrk's still probably dead, but his zanpakuto seems incapable of instantly killing a strong foe that loses at a game, even if it makes a direct hit (as during Kageoni). Magugag 19:52, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah. I think we should leave it open until we get a confirmation that he is gone.

Sting! TenRyuoh! 21:17, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * his released form was disappearing (mask shattered, gunbelts ripped apart, furry bits flying off of him - and none of those bits were hit by Shunusi's attack), and judging from the damage to his sides, that wound goes nearly the whole way through him. It is highly likely he is dead. Yyp 21:18, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * No, lets leave it at "dead" for the moment, because he most likely is. He isnt seen disintegrating like the others, but he had a similar death-scene, and when you remember, Nnoitra didnt disintegrate either... --21:22, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I won't change anything,but I still don't believe that he is dead.

Sting! TenRyuoh! 21:25, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Good for you, Gohan, but I believe he has passed. Examples are the fact that the area around his black hollow hole started to crack, with a torrent of blood coming from his chest. Notice how he falls, his eyes close. Notice, the fact that everything started to break up. And notice how he says mentally that he wasn't able to pay Aizen back. If he was going unconsious, he would have probably said something different, or nothing at all.

And I like to add, even though it's not really proof, his flashbacks. Only would normally happen to a person who's dying. Ryūketsu Namida 21:33, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

It would really suck if he's dead, cuz he was easily the coolest Espada. Plus, we never get a direct confrimation of his death, save an explosion, but that's how we thought Ulquiorra died isn't it? I agree with leaving him as deceased for now, but be prepared to change it.

Same way I felt, but you could have figured out they were all going to die eventually, right? Ryūketsu Namida 22:20, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

If Kubo loves he's characters so much,why does he kill them off?

Sting! TenRyuoh! 22:31, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

To advance the storyline. If no character died, we would most likely still be in the Hueco Mundo arc. They all have to die eventually. Ryūketsu Namida 22:34, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

yeah, except kubos a cheap bastard who has yet to even kill off one of the good guys <_<

Kubo can kill whoever he wants. If he doesn't want to kill good guys he doesn't have to. He clearly has more stories to tell with the good guys but the current crop of espada have mostly fulfilled their purpose. You might not like it but this is the story that Kubo is telling. For the record I have no problems with the good guys having not died yet because in Bleach to kill a Gotei 13 Vice-captain you have to go through the Captain-commander. If the Arrancar had that kind of support most of them wouldn't have died either but Aizen has stated clearly that he believes in the "survival of the fittest" so if you aren't strong enough to win on your own, he isn't going to save you. Whatever happens in the future, it is clear none of the espada we have seen so far are strong enough break through the alliance of the good guys. Tinni 02:41, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

I wont bash Kubo-sensei,but I'm sad that He's possibly dead. T_T

Sting! TenRyuoh! 05:57, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Privaron Espada & the Exequias
Because Szayel Aporro Granz dispatched the Exequias, it is possible that Dordonii Alessandro Del Socacchio and Cirucci Thunderwitch are the two bodies hanging from the ceiling in Szayel's lab, which would mean that he would have used them to either further his studying of Ichigo Kurosaki and Uryū Ishida's powers, or some other experiment. However, this hasn't been confirmed.

This is old. We found the references that says they are dead but not confirmation that the bodies are theirs. So they have been listed as deceased but no reference has been made the bodies hanging in Aporro's lab. Tinni 13:30, November 2, 2009 (UTC)