Bleach Wiki:Chat/December 15, 2012

 [11:41]  you cant just end a discussion..... [11:41]  so yeah. Sneak it in low key *nod* [11:42]  So yeah, I am thinking just leave the page name alone and put the no Jirou on to the introduction paragraph mention of his name [11:42]  or translate Jirou to Second Son... [11:42]  I am glad I am not a mod xD [11:42]  *bangs head against desk* [11:42]  WHY KUBO WHY? [11:42]  Hi KuroAshi98, welcome to the Bleach Wiki Chat! Please remember to follow our Bleach Wiki:Chat Policy when you are here. Also note that you need ten productive edits to articles to be in here otherwise you will be asked to leave. [11:42]  my issue is we know that he's a second son in no way is that his name [11:43]  Yo guys, what's up? [11:43]  Hey K [11:43]  the trouble is, salubri, it is... [11:43]  part of his name [11:43]  because its [11:43]  there [11:43] <Vraieesprit> &gt;&lt; [11:43] <Godismebot> HAI KURO [11:43] <Vraieesprit> but as you say, its not a name [11:43] <SunXia> letters are often very formal in that instance [11:43] <SunXia> i dont think we need those names in the title [11:43] <Vraieesprit> well when i talk about cultural elements salubri yells at me :P [11:43] <Salubri> thats my point its not his name just cause its there its a form of official address used in that letter [11:44] <Vraieesprit> salubri, it is his name [11:44] <Salubri> what we are asking it what is his name plain and simple [11:44] <Vraieesprit> his name is kyouraku no jirou souzousa shunsui [11:44] <Vraieesprit> that is all his name [11:44] <Salubri> not what the thing says but what his actual name [11:44] <SunXia> Do you call Queen Victoria by her full name??? [11:44] <SunXia> no [11:44] <Vraieesprit> queen victoria is dead [11:44] <Vraieesprit> o.o [11:44] <SunXia> hes not real o.o [11:44] <Vraieesprit> but if you want a real example [11:44] <Vraieesprit> Minamoto no Kurou taiyuu no Hougan Yoshitsune [11:44] <SunXia> my point being there are always parts of names not included [11:44] <Vraieesprit> ^^ real samurai name [11:45] <Vraieesprit> all that said though [11:45] <SunXia> i dont introduce myself with BA at the end of my name but thats my official title [11:45] <Vraieesprit> don't [11:45] <Vraieesprit> for the love of sanity [11:45] <Vraieesprit> change the name of his page [11:45] <SunXia> i know his real long name [11:45] <Vraieesprit> but do try and put the full name somewhere on his page. [11:45] <Godismebot> Sun SunXia BA [11:45] <Godismebot> doesnt seem right [11:45] <Godismebot> Oh wait, I know why [11:46] <SunXia> lol [11:46] <Godismebot> Sun Devilwoman SunXia BA [11:46] <Salubri> im the first born son i dont have that in my name though [11:46] <Vraieesprit> o.O [11:46] <Godismebot> that sounds better [11:46] <Jushiro971> :o [11:46] <Vraieesprit> you're not japanese [11:46] <Vraieesprit> or a samurai [11:46] <Vraieesprit> :P [11:46] <Salubri> he isnt a samurai either [11:46] <Vraieesprit> he is [11:46] <Vraieesprit> its in his biography in vol 18 [11:46] <SunXia> hes a shinigami [11:46] <Vraieesprit> he's from a samurai family [11:46] <Vraieesprit> :P [11:46] <Vraieesprit> hence the name [11:46] <KuroAshi98> I SHALL CHECK IT THEN [11:46] <Salubri> really i don't recall that at all [11:46] <SunXia> hey kuro lol [11:47] <Jushiro971> Sun's not a Devilwoman, God [11:47] <Godismebot> That is her name [11:47] <Salubri> he is from an aristocratic family [11:47] <Godismebot> She is devilwoman [11:47] <SunXia> lol [11:47] <KuroAshi98> Boop he's right [11:47] <Godismebot> This was on a trivia quiz I made for a friend once [11:47] <Godismebot> What is SunXia's real name [11:47] <Godismebot> Answer: Devilwoman [11:47] <Salubri> lol [11:48] <SunXia> made by him might i add [11:48] <SunXia> or reinforce [11:48] <KuroAshi98> "Second son of the high-ranking Kyoraku family. Born to a long line of martial artists, but hates academics and martial arts. Forced to enter the Soul Reaper Academy because he was leading an aimless life. [11:48] <Jushiro971> ... [11:48] <Salubri> yea we knew that [11:49] <Vraieesprit> the japanese says its a buke [11:49] <Vraieesprit> a military family [11:49] <Vraieesprit> aka a samurai family [11:49] <Vraieesprit> *waves book* [11:49] <Salubri> thats a leap [11:49] <SunXia> samurai is different from military [11:49] <Vraieesprit> no it isnt [11:49] <SunXia> so someone in the imperial navy is a samurai ?? [11:49] <Salubri> apparently [11:49] <KuroAshi98> There's a difference between an aristocratic family and a family of martial artists lol [11:49] <Vraieesprit> there's also a difference between a japanese term [11:50] <Vraieesprit> and a western understanding of that term [11:50] <Salubri> a family i high standing regardless kuro [11:50] <KuroAshi98> Samurai are military, yeah. [11:50] <Godismebot> Vraie, does this seem right? http://bleach.wikia.com/index.php?title=Shunsui_Ky%C5%8Draku&amp;action=historysubmit&amp;diff=335883&amp;oldid=335293 [11:50] <Vraieesprit> a buke family in japanese is synonymous with a samurai family. :P [11:50] <KuroAshi98> Well I thought the debate was over whether he was from a family of samurai and the whole second son thing. [11:50] <KuroAshi98> Iunno, I came in late to the discussion lol [11:50] <Vraieesprit> God, no, because as I said before, Jirou has to connect to the surname [11:50] <Vraieesprit> otherwise as you've written it he's the second son of shunsui [11:50] <Vraieesprit> which [11:51] <Vraieesprit> is a bit painful to contemplate, though possibly not beyond him [11:51] <Vraieesprit> given his flirting [11:51] <KuroAshi98> "Samurai were the military nobility of pre-industrial Japan." [11:51] <KuroAshi98> Boop - he's right again. [11:51] <Salubri> wait a minute [11:51] <Vraieesprit> I have a degree in this Kuro :P [11:51] <Vraieesprit> in japanese and in samurai stuffs :P [11:51] <KuroAshi98> I'VE GOT YOUR BACK [11:51] <Vraieesprit> i am trying to be helpful :P [11:51] <SunXia> But saurai was not until the 12th century we do not know how old Kyoraku is to assume he is samurai [11:51] <Salubri> Shunsui Kyoraku is fine but if no jiron then its not [11:51] <Vraieesprit> jirou [11:51] <Vraieesprit> and erm [11:51] <Godismebot> Alright, so give it to me again, how would you recommend putting it' [11:52] <Vraieesprit> samurai existed before the 12th century, SunXia [11:52] <Vraieesprit> and since Bleach is set in an edo setting [11:52] <Vraieesprit> thats irrelevant [11:52] <Vraieesprit> erm [11:52] <Vraieesprit> Shunsui Souzousa Kyouraku no Jirou [11:52] <SunXia> ys but wasnt until 12th century that it was equal to samurai [11:52] <Vraieesprit> SunXia, the shogunate began in the 12th century [11:52] <SunXia> what its set in and how old kyoraku is is not the same [11:52] <Godismebot> Isn't that how I have it? [11:52] <Vraieesprit> hang on, maybe i need to refrehs [11:52] <Godismebot> Shunsui Shōzōsa Kyōraku no Jirō [11:53] <Vraieesprit> ah [11:53] <Vraieesprit> yes you do [11:53] <Godismebot> is what I put in the article [11:53] <Vraieesprit> gomen [11:53] <Vraieesprit> its the alternate romanisation that's in the other order [11:53] <Vraieesprit> and just because Minamoto no YOritomo began the shogunate in the 1180s/90s [11:54] <Vraieesprit> does not mean samurai were magically invented then :p [11:54] <Godismebot> Hi Dark Seeker Kotsu, welcome to the Bleach Wiki Chat! Please remember to follow our Bleach Wiki:Chat Policy when you are here. Also note that you need ten productive edits to articles to be in here otherwise you will be asked to leave. [11:54] <Vraieesprit> and since the edo period began in 1603, and that's bleach's setting [11:54] <SunXia> i never thought so it was taken from poems i am aware of my history [11:54] <Godismebot> Hey Kotsu [11:54] <Vraieesprit> ...i think we can safely say shunsui can be a samurai [11:54] <Dark Seeker Kotsu> Hey... [11:54] <SunXia> but that is still assuming [11:54] <SunXia> hey Kotsu [11:54] <Vraieesprit> Gomen, but my specialist area of japan is the twelfth century and the samurai clans :p [11:55] <SunXia> we have never heard of in bleach "this is a samurai" theyre spirits [11:55] <Salubri> ok here is the problem Bleach is not set in the edo period its set in a concept that takes many respects from the edo period. Secondly the names on the sight is written with western point of view. Putting no Jiron on the end of his name would signify to the english that Jiron is his last name. i dont need samarui/edo version i need version that translates into a western understanding [11:55] <Vraieesprit> Salubri [11:55] <Vraieesprit> its jirou [11:55] <Vraieesprit> :P [11:55] <Salubri> whatever [11:55] <Vraieesprit> and if you want to do a wiki on a japanese subject [11:55] <SunXia> saurai, written in poems, was still only ~900AD [11:55] <Vraieesprit> you need to accept certain levels of japanese [11:55] <Vraieesprit> because otherwise people are going to mock you [11:56] <Salubri> who exactly [11:56] <SunXia> its not set in 1600s japan, its set in SS that looks like it [11:56] <Salubri> oh people that are japanese cause they come here [11:56] <Vraieesprit> xDD [11:56] <Godismebot> Okay, basically what I am getting is that if we add the full name, there is no way we can get out of tacking no Jirou onto the end because it would not make sense otherwise [11:56] <Vraieesprit> Well you can get around it by [11:56] <Vraieesprit> putting Shunsui Souzousa Kyouraku, Second Son [11:57] <Vraieesprit> that would remove the surname problem and be nice and English-y [11:57] <SunXia> or just the first part, its already mentioned he is the second so [11:57] <Salubri> ture [11:57] <Salubri> true [11:57] <Godismebot> But second son is a part of the name [11:57] <Vraieesprit> it is. [11:57] <Godismebot> Whether it is already mentioned or not, it is a part of his name [11:57] <Salubri> interestingly enough we dont seem to know how [11:57] <Vraieesprit> I know how [11:57] <Vraieesprit> you won't listen how [11:57] <Vraieesprit> ask adam :p [11:57] <KuroAshi98> Oh snap [11:57] <Salubri> thats not goood enough, he said he doesnt know [11:57] <Vraieesprit> well thats because he doesn't speak japanese. [11:58] <Salubri> if i cant understand it then i dont see the point [11:58] <Vraieesprit> he's just a very intelligent linguist who knows a lot about characters [11:58] <Salubri> ok forget it throw it into the trivia section and call it a day [11:58] <Vraieesprit> hang on [11:58] <Vraieesprit> let me see if I can find something that explains it [11:59] <Godismebot> Sal, if we add the full name, we have to put no Jirou on the end because that IS part of the full name. I know from my study of german that last names often consisted of the german of "son of x" [11:59] <SunXia> his name is Kyoraku though [11:59] <Godismebot> Yes, that is his last name [11:59] <Salubri> Shunsui Kyoraku (first name, surname)