Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-1429792-20160720174724

Following split off from thread that was supposed to be about Shunsui's Bankai:

Kaestal wrote:

I kinda doubt that Yamamoto is equal to Hogyoku Aizen or Dangai Ichigo as he is still just a Shinigami, and while he is an extremely powerful one he is not a transcendent being.

Going by the fact that ALL moisture was evaporated in Seireitei the moment Yamamoto activated his Bankai, Kaien's hypothetical Bankai would probably not do much against Yama's.

Very, very cold ice is much harder to evaporate than water, and yet Toshiro's Bankai and Shikai were gone just as quickly as all other moisture.

Rukia's Bankai at absolute zero might be able to withstand Yama's Bankai briefly, but she would have like 4 seconds to attack him before she died.

Monotire wrote:

Yeah, I agree that he isn't on that level, but no one since Dangai Ichigo or Hogyoku Aizen has shown up since so I am not using them in terms of power levels.

Yes it evaporated moisture, but I feel with enough generation of water Kaien could counter it better them most other Bankai of Ice or Water type Zanpakutos. If Kaien hypothetical Bankai worked like a much stronger Shikai, (like most Bankai's) then going off his Shikai he could summons mass amounts of water, I would guess on Yamas level of fire generation or close to it (but that just guessing). Even if Yama kept evaporating it Kaien could keep summoning more and more.

Now to be fair tho Kaien Zanpakuto isn't likes Yamas, Kaien just has the ability to summon water not control it on the level Yama can with fire, thats why I said Yama is unique...now if you had another Soul reaper with a Zanpakuto that could control a element on that kind of level, bend it to your will if you may, then that person could fight him.

But we only saw a little of his Zanpakuto so he could with enough training control water allot more with his Shikai, then even more so like say flooding the entire area or have control over water in the area...but thats getting into theory crafting territory so. :)

StealthBlade98 wrote:

I think people put too much stock into Dangai Ichigo, i feel as if that power of his was pretty much his true power fully unlocked. Ichigo's current powers right now after getting his true zanpakuto and training in the Soul King Palace is pretty much more powerful than Dangai Ichigo but not even That form or Aizen could defeat Bankai Yamma, but Aizen couldn't die from it either thanks to now being immortal(unless that just means he can't die by normal means but can still die in the end).

Kokanhora wrote:

There's no way Dangai Ichigo was weaker than Yamamoto. He was able to manhandle Aizen like 4 transformations after Aizen V. Yamamoto, (where Yamamoto was probably stronger, but not so much that Aizen was helpless), and at the time Aizen was literally disintegrating people that stood near him and started to destroy Gin just by touching him, and that's not even covering what Ichigo v. Aizen showcased of Ichigo's abilities: 1. Even a normal sword swing from him disintegrated rock. 2. He was able to catch Aizen's strongest sword swing with no effort, 3. He destroyed an absurdly powerful full incantation Hado #90, performed by one of the strongest beings in Bleach history, who has been shown in the past to be a Kido master, with his bare hand and practically no effort. 4. He tanked Aizen's Fragor attack, and physically canceled his Ultrafragor, all without ever breaking a sweat.

I'd say the only beings stronger than Dangai Ichigo and 5th form Aizen are Yhwach and possibly Ichibei, Kenpachi (If he could control his Bankai) current Ichigo (If what Yhwach said about his Bankai's power is correct), and Current Aizen (assuming Aizen wasn't wrong about ascending further. He's obviously still very powerful, But until he beats that chair, we won't know for sure.)

I think it's Yamamoto's Bankai that has too much stock put in it. Bleach has shown that pure Reiatsu can basically overcome anything, (like Aizen canceling Soi-Fon's Shikai) and I get the feeling the heat of the sun is no different.

Salubri wrote:

Way too much stock is being put in things unverified by looking only at situational points that cant be backed up. Ichigo in one instance in the series developed a lvl of power that allowed him to manhandle Aizen. That lvl of power required a specific set up of circumstances in order to get to and was gone by the end. But lets not forget that it wasnt really the correct version of his power. At best its the rushed situational version. With Yamamoto who was already peaked in power. Lets look at the reality. Before Aizen's hogyoku power ups when he was a typical shinigami. It was clear that he wasnt able to take Yamamoto in a fight. He even creates a Arrancar specifically to take out Ryujin Jakka thinking that would help. Why is this because prior to the transformations Aizen may have been more capable then the rank and file for various reasons but not against Yamamoto in a fair fight. Aizen didnt actually disintigrate people until his 3rd from and that was like a regular person, Ichigo's friends were not even affected. Once again in relation to Ichigo it was one instance in the series never shown again. Proving that Ichigo was more powerful then Aizen in that instance but not showcasing that same level of power after these displays of power. Dangai Ichigo is currently irrelevant to the story as is Aizen's previous forms. As powerful as Aizen is he is still strapped to a Chair and held as a prisoner. Your putting alot of stock into a character that was so powerful he got beat and imprisoned and another who has consistently got beat after his amazing dangai showcase.

Kokanhora wrote:

While it's true Aizen only completely disintegrated 1 weak person, he also started dissolving Gin, a very powerful captain-class Shinigami just by touching him. Unless I missed a scene where Yamamoto started dissolving a captain-level spiritual being just by touching them, that's evidence Yamamoto was significantly weaker than 3rd-form Aizen. And yes, up until recently Aizen was chairbound, but keep in mind that chair was made by Mr. Deus Ex Machina, Mayuri Kurotsuchi, and the only way they could get him into that chair was because of Urahara, aka Mr. Deus Ex Machina Sr. The fact that he lost and was captured only tells us 3 things. 1. Ichigo was stronger than him. 2. Urahara was smarter than him. 3. Mayuri is very good at restraining people. And we already knew those last 2 things.

As for Ichigo, It's obvious that when he got his powers back, he was weaker than he was after the Dangai training, especially since he didn't have his Bankai fused to his hand, he couldn't erase his surroundings with a simple sword swing, and other people could still feel his Reiatsu. And that makes sense. Thanks to Saigo no Getsuga Tensho, they had to cheat to get his powers back, so they obviously wouldn't come back at their peak. While I do think that Ichigo is now more powerful than he was after the Dangai training, there isn't enough evidence to suggest it, so I said possibly. The only thing we know is that Current Shikai Ichigo > Old Shikai Ichigo, and Dangai Bankai Ichigo > Old Bankai Ichigo.

I do agree that Dangai Ichigo is not relevant to the story anymore, but neither is Yamamoto, or Kaien's theoretical Bankai, yet we're still talking about them. However, I disagree that Aizen's previous forms are irrelevant, since we have no reason to believe that Aizen has gotten weaker since then, yet we have evidence that he hasn't, like him still being able to dissolve people, even from within his seal, his Reiatsu alone killing a large amount of Yhwach's weird shadow creatures, and his recent comments about being able to beat Yhwach.

I put a lot of stock into these characters because they both performed incredible feats that have, as of yet, not been copied by anyone, like Ichigo dispelling level 90 kido with his bare hand, or Aizen being able to physically harm and even kill people with only his Reiatsu. It's true we never see them fight anyone else, but we don't need to. If someone breaks a brick wall with their bare hand, and another person can't, we have no choice but to assume the first person is stronger.  