Talk:Rangiku Matsumoto

Strawberry Blonde or Ginger
I'd say her hair is just ginger orange since it's a faded orange color, not a blonde color with light orange tones. Difference?

Ginger: http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=lily%20cole&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=931

Strawberry blonde: http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&biw=1280&bih=931&tbs=isch:1&sa=1&q=nicole+kidman&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Tomboy Daisy (talk) 22:19, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, both these women artificially dye their hair, especially nicole kidman who has spent a lot of time in those pics as an unatural blode while her natural strawberry blond looks more like Rangiku's!! Look at the difference between Rangiku and Orihime, their shades are definitely not the same and Lily Cole's is way redder naturally than rangiku's but again she also has her hair tinited profesttionally SunXia (talk) 22:22, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

And ginger's not really supposed to be a term used for hair colour, it's usually, red/auburn/strawberry blond etc etc SunXia (talk) 22:25, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Ginger is most certainly a term for hair color. Ginger sounds a lot more appropriate for natural redhead colorations than redhead does considering redheads don't actually have red hair unless it's dyed. In fact, auburn is more red than any real redhead hair I've encountered.

And anyway the point is she doesn't have blonde hair, her hair never shows up as a blonde tone, and strawberry blondes don't have just light or dull orange hair colors, they have blonde hair with slight orange tones. There's an obvious difference and as her hair never looks blonde she's not a strawberry blonde. Tomboy Daisy (talk) 22:31, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Mabashi I just remembered Mabashi has strawberry blonde hair. In reality Orihime has orange hair, Ichigo has light orange hair, Rangiku has ginger orange hair, and Mabashi has strawberry blonde hair to give you perspective. Tomboy Daisy (talk) 22:44, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Red-head is the correct term in the way that blond is the correct term for anything lighter than brown until it hits white!! MY doctors call my brother red-head, ginger is a general term used in a slang and derogatory manner!! When i look at colours on a hair dye scale, they are shades of red, since orange is a shade of red, but a light shade that has had yellow mixed into it!! SunXia (talk) 23:11, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_hair_color here have a look SunXia (talk) 23:12, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

There is no definitive correct term for a human's hair color as long as you are using real colors to describe it. Ginger is not necessarily a derogatory term just like many slang terms. And you're just straying away from the point now. I just showed you another Bleach character who actually is a strawberry blonde and you didn't even acknowledge it. Tomboy Daisy (talk) 23:27, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

OK, give me an example that Ginger is used as a correct term, by correct terminology other than, "Hey look at that Ginger" or "He/She's Ginger" or "That dude next to the Ginger" in a social setting!! This is a matter of perspective and obviously people have agreed that Strawberry Blond is the correct term to be used in regards to Rangiku's hair!! Ginger is a term used for anyone with any shade or hint of red in their hair!! So by that every red head should be labelled ginger, including mabashi, who has a a lighter shade of red!! Strawberry blond, in my perspective, as an Irish person who sees "ginger" people every day is still a hair colour described as ginger in a social and derogatory setting so in that regards, if Rangiku becomes ginger then so should ichigo, Orihime and mabashi!! SunXia (talk) 23:42, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Ah... guys... Manga says she's golden blond. Tinni  (Talk)  09:30, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

I was actually about to post the same thing. Not with this image in particular but there were a lot of other manga colorations that predate this one that depicted her hair as this this color. -- DragonBlade302 (talk) 09:35, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing that one up!! I was just going by the colour in the Anime and how it depends on perspective and how you look at it, knew it definitely wasn't ginger which is still not a colour!! Wonder why it is so much redder in Anime or maybe it is the animators trying to make it appear more golden-ish than usual blond, the way blue eyes white dragon looks...blue in the Anime of Yu-Gi-Oh, kinda like that hmmm!! Thanks Tinni!! SunXia (talk) 10:12, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Tinni and Dragon Blade are correct. It was established in the manga that Rangiku's hair is blonde. The cover for the new Volume 46 is the most obvious example (I wasn't aware that it was out until this morning), but also, in various color pages in the manga, Rangiku's hair was colored as blonde in the past, similar to how Orihime's eyes were colored as brown in the manga instead of grey. Blonde is indeed the correct color for Rangiku's hair. Thanks for clearing this up here, Tinni. Arrancar109 (Talk)  15:24, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Ginger is still a hair color. I'm a ginger I have ginger family members, it's definitely not always a derogatory word, quit watching South Park. Also, her hair color in the manga is clearly vastly different and like someone said it's Golden Blonde. Her hair in the anime is clearly not the same color as you have acknowledged but it's obviously not Strawberry Blonde because even strawberry blonde and golden blonde are two completely different hair colors. Just because her hair actually was blonde in the manga doesn't mean it's strawberry blonde here because as has been said the two colors are completely different just as Orihime's eyes weren't anywhere near the same color from the anime to the manga so nice job trying to bring proof into this. The only thing you've proved is that she was a total blonde in the manga.

Also about ginger again, ginger is another word for redhead just like any other redhead specific color. It can be used for someone with red or orange toned hair of any kind. The color ginger itself though is just like Rangiku's a dull orange. Orihime's eyes aren't brown just because they were in the manga just like Rangiku's hair isn't blonde just because it was in the manga. If anything showing it was blonde in the manga just reinforces the fact her hair isn't blonde in the anime. .:: TomboyDaisy  ::.  21:12, July 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * The thing is that Manga is our first hand source for reference in this wiki, be it plot, colors, etc. That's why we're keeping Rangiku's hair as blond, because the manga has her as blond, even if the anime gave her an orange, auburn, or whatever you want to call it color. It's the same as what happened with Gin, the anime initially colored his eyes red (though it was corrected recently), but the manga always had them blue, so we kept them blue in his infobox. That's it. Lia Schiffer   (Talk)  21:17, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't the vast amount of information on the page center on the anime though? .::  TomboyDaisy  ::.  21:19, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

The anime is referenced if there isn't any manga references available, which do affect some character statistics. By our policies here, the manga is our primary source of information, since it has the original content written and drawn by the original author, Tite Kubo. The anime is the secondary source of information, and it does come up when there aren't any manga references available (such as the anime-only arcs). Arrancar109 (Talk)  21:46, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

This is a moot point, but Ginger is still not the proper term for a Red Head, the term is red head, look it up!! I do not watch South Park, please do not insult my intelligence by presenting such moot evidence as "I'm ginger I should know", that is not solid proof!! And anyway, while most of the pictures come from the anime for better viewing, everyone knows the first port of call is the Manga as it is the original sourced material!! Even in the anime, I would say her hair is a red shade of blonde, since that is the correct term or else everyone with a red shade in their hair would be called ginger!! Please do not insult my intelligence with "I should know"'s when I provided evidence of what I was saying and you weren't!! Anyway, issue resolved, right? SunXia (talk) 22:45, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Considering how long and drawn out this discussion is I would make a point in saying this. While the manga attributes her hair color as golden blond and we usually go by manga first I would tend to agree with those who argue that point. But to play devils advocate I would also point out the in a somewhat similar issue Gin's eyes were portrayed in the manga as blue he appears with red eyes in the anime and then they corrected this color to blue later on. The difference with Gin and Rangiku's issues are that Gins eyes are rarely seen we can count on one hand the number of times we have seen them open. Once red and in both anime and manga depicted as blue. That issue for all purposes is resolved as far as im concerned. But the issue with this hair color is somewhat different. While the manga makes claim to her hair being golden blond throughout the manga based anime and anime only it has never appeared to be remotely golden blonde. Now the point being that 100% of the time this red or strawberry blond hair color seems to be the official concept of her hair color. This is not a rare occurrence as of 280 episodes its been anything other then golden blond. I would move that in fairness of the awkward situation we are placed in with this we should list it upon the color she is predominately shown to have and we list the difference in the manga as a trivia point. It doesn't make the manga any less true but it does acknowledge in televised format it has been changed and there seems to be no intention of changing it. To do otherwise would confuse anyone as the anime version is what is commonly depicted by most fans, wheres the golden blond is never seen in a black and white manga. Hence unles explicitly stated or shown in color portions by kubo i usually would stick to the anime version of colors as thats where 99% of coloration comes from.'--Salubri (Talk)  23:08, July 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah no, we are not doing that. Rather, I am happy to have a triva point stating that her hair is reddish in the anime but we are not listing her hair by its anime colour. It is a matter of consistency. Rangiku and Gin are not the only people whose attributes were changed in the anime. Yumichika's eye colour was changed from purple to black in the anime, Orihime's eye colour was changed from brown to grey, Gin's hair was changed from its trademark silver to light purple etc, etc. We have ALWAYS gone with the manga, like we should. We are not having a different rule for Rangiku when the argument wasn't even really have what colour her hair is but whether it can be called Ginger or not. Well, it's not Ginger and while the anime designers might have believed that in anime cell colours her hair looked better as a strawberry blond, Kubo has consistently, over a number of years coloured her hair golden blonde. For evidence, I bring you (from our existing picture collection) this page from chapter 285, a colourful Bleach panel from the book "Bleach Official Bootleg KaraBuri+", the colour drawing of the Bleach girls at the beach from All_Colour_But_The_Black (notice also Orihime's brown eyes) and just for emphasis, the drawing of the Gotei 13 lieutenants. It is clear that the anime made a concious decision to add red tint to her hair, just as they clearly made a concious decision to add purple tint to the hair of a man called Gin (meaning silver) and give Orihime grey eyes etc. However, the anime teams character design choice is not our concern. Our policy says manga > anime and Rangiku has always been golden blond in the manga. So there is no argument here. Either we go with the manga or we don't. If we don't go with the manga then for ALL characters, including Gin for his hair, Orihime for her eyes, Yumichika for his eyes, we must alter the profile to reflect the anime and not to mention we have to alter the policy as well. However, as things stand now, it is a mute point. Rangiku is a golden blonde period. Tinni   (Talk)  01:00, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Tinni here, for the sake of consistency we should leave it, after all, we could leave the strawberry blond description in the main text and the blonde description in the info box jus to balance it out as strawberry blonde can highlight than in the anime, there is a reddish tint to her usually golden blond hair!! If we change one thing then we might as well change it all for any inconsistencies between the two forms of media!! SunXia (talk) 01:11, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Actually Tinni i wasnt asking your permission on this subject. the fact is if we are going be consistency her hair is not shown to be golden blond at all other then a handful of manga shots. In all no one would say that the color of her hair. This is obviously a issue thats gone to far until its properly resolved the page will be locked. Salubri (Talk)  01:17, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Now when anyone can rectify how your gonna state the hair color to golden blond but have multiple pics up showing otherwise, please explain. otherwise the choice is do what i previously suggested or replace all the pics with the manga images. We cannot have it state one thing and have all the pictures show something completely different. if the policy needs to be tweaked to account for that fine. Salubri (Talk)  01:22, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

But then, Gin's hair has the same issue as does multiple character's eyes, who all appear in their mulitude of pictures through out their articles...is it really worth the upheaval when it can be stated at the beginning to the article that its Strawberry Blond in the Anime?? SunXia (talk) 01:30, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

The point is the manga is 99% black and white. 99% of the color definitions we get for the series comes from the anime not the manga. So apparently there is an issue here but the issue is apparently the specifics of the policy. I cannot fault people for this as this is a mess up on the part of the policies creation. I fully understand Kubo created the color templates on the manga but these colorations are not he bases of color on the majority of the series which is drawn in black and white. We heavily depend on the anime to showcase coloration. Although the manga is primary for everything else the realm of colors it doesn't seem to hold to. Salubri (Talk)  01:37, July 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * No Salubri you are wrong in this case and is there any reason her hair is now "lond"? As I said before, we have multiple anime shots of Gin with purple hair, Orihime with grey eyes. It has never been a problem before and it isn't a problem now. Also, you have misread the issue, like you often do when you waltz into a situation you know nothing about. READ the discussion carefully, the argument was over ginger vs strawberry blond and none of these people where editing the page. DragonBlade302 edited the page first to say her hair was blond, Godism got confused and undid DragonBlade302's edit, which SunXia corrected. Then Arrancar109 added references and when I dropped into check on committee matters I added the "Golden" part, added the trivia point etc. That was the sum total of edits on that page, so stop making it sound as if it was high edit page. It wasn't! The only person, you'll notice, who is arguing that she is ginger/strawberry blond before you waded into an issue that you really should have stayed out of was  .::  TomboyDaisy  ::. . That's why this discussion is so long.  .::  TomboyDaisy  ::.  insisted she's Ginger, SunXia disagreed and that's why this discussion is so long. I will say it again, there is no issue here. This is NOT an atypical situation. Gin's own hair is clearly purple in the anime. Us listing it as silver in the info box AND having multiple anime pictures with purple hair hasn't caused the world to end and nor for constant edit wars. Likewise, Orihime profile picture having clearly grey eyes and us listing her eyes as brown hasn't caused the world to end either. Listing Rangiku as blonde or more specifically Golden Blonde isn't going to cause a problem either. Our policy says manga > anime and so that's they way we have to go. ONLY alternative is that we clutter the info box with "golden blonde" (manga), "strawberry blonde" (anime). Which given that the initial disagreement was between strawberry blonde vs ginger, I am not inclined to do that.  Tinni   (Talk)  01:44, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Her description also says her eyes are icy blue even though in the manga they are just a deep blue. Better change it. .:: TomboyDaisy  ::.  01:51, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Again I agree with Tinni here, there is little point in the upheaval that could have consequences for the other articles, and Rangiku's eyes are a lighter shade of blue which is what the icy represents but her info box already states her eyes are blue, see little point in cutting off nose to spite the face, not worth the upheaval. the article was fine the way it was before, completed and up to date, all this isn't necessary, and if it continues, i suggest moving it to a forum of some sort as it will end up becoming more than just Rangiku's article being discussed SunXia (talk) 02:06, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Tinni, the only edits I undid were those of Tomboy Daisy. Anyway, why not compromise. Salubri wants it to be Strawberry Blonde, Tinni wants it to be Golden Blonde so why not just say Blonde? --God (Pray)  02:13, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I only even made two edits. I'm the one who had the decency to start this discussion here rather than get in an edit war. .::  TomboyDaisy  ::.  02:20, July 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * My apologies Godism, SunXia is correct, it was Gold not yourself. Sorry about the confusion. Tinni   (Talk)  03:02, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Ooops, it was Gold[lots of numbers], yeah that dude that changed it from DragonBlade's edit!! I, then fixed this, sorry with so much going on here, Tinni got confused!! Drama Drama Drama, spilled milk in reality, God's right, blond just do it, since it's not as obvious a red shade as the like's of Orihime's?? SunXia (talk) 02:19, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

I was hesitant to throw a post into such a needlessly large discussion, but I wanted to throw in my own point of view: Unfortunately, this isn't a matter that can be compromised. As everybody here has already preached at least once, this Wiki deals with nothing more than the facts. Of all the policies here, the manga > anime one is among the most important, because it helps preserve consistency across the articles. As all of Kubo's colorations show, Rangiku's hair is clearly intended to be blonde, regardless of whether the anime company jumped the gun and colored it wrong - Bleach isn't the first anime that such a thing has happened to. As Tinni said, Rangiku's situation is almost identical to Gin's in terms of hair color, so this should not be anything new to us. The only real solution is to do what we always do with alternate anime colorations - list her hair as blonde, and note in the trivia section that in the anime her hair is consistently "whatever that color is". Mohrpheus (talk) 02:31, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

I would simply point this out while everyone is correct about the policy regarding the manga over anime, the guidelines state the only policy we have on color on the sight. "The primary source for references would be the manga. The secondary source is the anime. While anime can be included alongside the manga references to supplement them. Manga always takes precedent in references except in cases of anime only material and to showcase color and movement that only can be expressed via anime." All other polices in regard to the anime are detailed specifically what they cover.Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  02:52, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

I agree this argument is getting ridiculous, manga always comes before anime, if she is blond in the manga then she is blond on her profile end of story. Plus the reason why both her and Gin have slightly modified hair color is due to the anime's pastel color palette(which both Gin and Rangiku have pastel toned hair) their hair would just blend into the background and it would just look like a "hot mess." Their hair is toned a little darker so that they stand out more and don't blend into the background. This is the same reason Harribell's skin tone is lighter she would look too dark and extremely out of place and her hair and skin tone would clash too much for animation. Plus animating hair is so difficult to begin with and Gin and Ran have a lot of highlights in their hair and it is impossible to animate extensive amounts of highlights, that is why in anime or any other form of 2d animation characters have very solid color schemes. But the point is Rangiku is blond end of discussion. --Lemursrule (talk) 02:55, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, enough, I made a mistake not closing this discussion last night but I am going to rectify this now. The overwhelming majority, including Arrancar109, agree that the manga colour should take precedent so for now, that's what we will do. We will take Godism's suggestion and go with the broad and generic "blond", which can include some very reddish tints as can be seen from this hair colour chart. If there is a change of policy and we do go with anime colouring (I shudder to think of Gin's hair being called purple but doom must come to us all), we can affix the term "strawberry" to her blond tussles however we will at no time be calling her a Ginger. Because SunXia is in fact correct and at least according to this hair colour chart and this hair colour chart and this hair colour chart, Ginger is not a hair colour. In fact, the only mention of Ginger was in the Loreal Hair colour char and it wasn't pure Ginger but "Loreal Ginger/Butterscotch", with the Ginger being a highlight type. So now that I have settled all the arguments, I am closing this discussion. Tinni  (Talk)  03:02, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Deceased?
I think it's a bit premature to assume her to be dead. For all we know, Gin just claimed her to be dead to Aizen along with Aizen complimenting on how her reiatsu disappeared. But there still lies the possibility of Gin lying to Aizen and somehow hid her (probably chucking her through the senkai portal into the human world or something). Shouldn't we leave it as Unknown or something? --JezzaRules2 (talk) 13:18, July 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed, nothing is clear in this situation, serious confirmation is needed for such a verdict. We're in the middle of Gin's scheme anyway, at most we can say "presumed deceased". The state of Komamura, after being cut to bits, or Yamamoto, after performing sacrificial spells, is treated with more precaution currently ("incapacitated" / "unknown") Papuraverde (talk) 13:26, July 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * It is not up to us to decide if Gin was telling the truth or not - that is speculation and is not allowed on the articles. She was declared dead by a character in the story (same case with Harribel). That is about as conclusive as we can get. 13:29, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't see it as a thing of deciding, but rather about waiting for confirmation in situations that are obviously not clear. Turn of events happen with regularity in this manga, and character statements are equally mischevious. In the issue of fatal hits or such, I remember Tousen being declared deceased (by Hisagi's hand) two chapters after it actually happened. Papuraverde (talk) 13:41, July 30, 2010 (UTC)Papuraverde 13:41, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

And if there is a turn of events, we always rectify it as soon as we find out. We can only go with what has been said in the manga; she's dead. Yes, I agree, Gin lies all the time (personally, I think he's lying). Yes, there's a chance we will have to change it. However, now is not the time. If/when it's revealed she's still alive, we'll change it then. It's the way we've always operated; people may disagree, but even reasonable assumptions are not truly valid till they're proven in print, and this has not been yet. So for now, it should stay. <font color="red" face="Verdana">TomServo101 <font color="red" face="Verdana">(Talk)  13:51, July 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * shouldn't be presumed Deceased since there is no corpse to prove her being dead and that he have no real way of knowing she is alive either since gin claims to have killed her. That or at least make sure to note that it is not 100% percent confirmed. Because in that same chapter gin admitted to lying about what his bankai's abilities were. Darthwin (talk) 14:10, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Actually you brought up the same things during Tosen's death and to clarify he was declared deceased the day the chapter came out at which point you protested and we again stated he was dead (I checked the date of the edit for his page as well as your post on his talk page. All that was said was accurate and still continues to be). There is no question of Komamura being alive as anyone maimed in FKT as well we left it unknown for the captain-commander cause thats what the situation played out, nothing was shown and sacrificial could mean many things for the situation depending on whats sacrificed, as it is insinuated a arm. as well it wouldn't be the first time Aizen wasn't completely right about an effect. He never explicitly states death or insinuates even just says what he knew of the spells effect. In this case Gin states explicitly that he killed Rangiku somewhat a rare occurrence in Bleach that is not commonly proclaimed unless it actually took place in the story according to the characters. Could he be lying yes, but until such time as we can determine it a lie there is no reason not to belive him. We know he attacked her, we saw her laid out and injured along with all her other injuries and he then states to Aizen he killed her though having no real reason to have done so or even say it regardless of it happening or not. Also revelation of actual ability to git a one up on someone doesn't count for being a complete liar thats just tactically smart. The status goes: fighting (name), healing (name), incapacitated, active or deceased and in accordance to determination by the admin if unsure of status based on ambiguous scenario Unknown is placed. --<font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  14:14, July 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with any decision on this, I just stated my viewpoint. I happen to regard all the other statuses as accurate, but they're also based on what happened. Papuraverde (talk) 15:05, July 30, 2010 (UTC)Papuraverde 15:04, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, then, should the details leading up to her death be made specific? The article currently says "laying unconscious" on the roof and not "was killed" or anything like that. Should we also change the article's tenses to be "was"? Avolling (talk) 15:51, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Inconsistency
I understand why we are listing her as deceased, but the plot information says she was left lying unconscious. The page is locked, so only and Admin can change it, could someone look up to that so that the plot matches her status? Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  05:34, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Hopefully its fixed. <font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  12:44, August 1, 2010 (UTC)

Status Request:Unknown
Just because Rangiku got hurt badly and Gin says he killed does'nt actually mean she's really dead.Just heavily wounded.The same thing happened to Grimmjow and we don't how he's holding up.So,that's why I say we should put her status as Unknown for the time being.Hockey Machete (talk) 18:41, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Gin says she is dead. There is no evidence to contradict that so until there is, we will be leaving here as dead--<font color="black" face="Verdana">God <font color="black" face="Verdana">(Pray)  18:45, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Once again, Grimmjow was last seen alive, and he has not been verbally addressed to being killed, nor has anything been shown to address that he's been killed. Rangiku is stated to be dead because, unlike Grimmjow, it was verbally stated by a character. Unless Ichimaru is officially proven to be wrong later, there is absolutely no reason to doubt the legitimacy of his words. Anything else stated at this moment is pure speculation. <font color="teal" size="2px">Arrancar109 <font color="teal" size="1px">(Talk)  18:48, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Listing the Hair Color Discrepancy
Why do the same thing I did with the eyes and list BOTH the original manga's AND the Anime's coloring of her hair. It wouldn't hurt and it wouldn't be wrong as her hair and eyes are clearly different depending on the manga or anime. Feel free to change the eyes back if you find this solution unnecessary.

And would it not be better to list her as unknown and not dead. I understand where you all are coming from but the manga never clearly indicated whether of not she's dead or alive (as far as I know) so to make assumptions would (that could end up false) would make the wiki seem bad.