Forum:Feminism in Bleach

More like a question, is there really feminism/sexism in Bleach? I've heard time and time again from female fans, that they're disappointed how girls almost never win any fights, annoyed or frustrated at Momo's devotion to Aizen and Orihime's "weak-will", and so on. This true? Krone8 21:50, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

for the most part.--ZACH 22:52, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

I'd class Yoruichi as a case against that argument. Unohana would fit if she lives up to her billing, and maybe Soifon too. TomServo101 (Talk)  23:06, June 16, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah...Yoruichi really is a first class example of a strong woman. Soifon too, but Unohana is too much a cipher for me to classify her as some feminist ideal. She doesn't really do anything, but maintain her hospitals and heal the sick...worthy roles in themselves, but not what I think the opening post intended. Outside of the captains you have Rangiku. I know she comes off as a oversexed bubblehead, but she is a strong personality willing and able to fight on the front line and actually commands when she has too. Really, the only other one I can think of as a strong woman feminist archetype is Tatsuki. No power to speak of but she never relents in protecting friends or expecting others to live up to her standards. Great Cthulhu 06:44, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Don't Forget Rukia, she has killed an Espada, an opponent who should have been several times over her power limit, and then went on to beat Rudobon too. She may have been weak in the Soul Society arc physically but she was supposed to be, and she never shyed from the fact she would be executed. then there's the two 3 Espada - Harribel and Neliel. Sure they have massive cleavages and tiny costumes, but they both kicked hella load of arse!! Wolfwood (Shoot)  08:29, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Good points, but what of that whole issue with Momo's devotion to Aizen, female characters almost never winning a fight against a male, Orihime's so-called non-combat nature and her "Stay In The kitchen" behavior when Ichigo's usually involved? Krone8 06:33, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

I think there is definitely sexism in bleach, one look at most of the female charcters' chests and you can see it. They are objectified--God (Pray)  06:46, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Objectifying women is more an issue inn Shonen Manga in general! i don't want to get off universe too much but if you've read the latest Kenichi chapter you know what i mean!! as for women not winning fights, the only time Rangiku lost a fight was against three other women, or if you count Luppi then two guys lost as well. Nel beat Nnorita into a pulp. Harribel was only eventually finished by the same guys that also cut down four captains at the same time and Rukia was beaten at last by Yammy who also creamed Renji, Chad and was about to do in Ichigo!

Momo's is the same as Kira's attachment to Gin or Hisagi to Tosen. they all still idealise their former Captains and only Hisagi managed to get over it once Tosen turned in a hulking monster!!!

Orihime i admit is a real problem.Wolfwood (Shoot)  07:09, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't really planning on bringing this up to avoid confrontation, but oh well, somebody else already did, so here goes nothing. Yes, there are strong women in Bleach, we don't live in the 17th century after all. You can't just pull a full-men army anymore. BUT, the great majority of the fighters ARE men. From the TBtP, there were only TWO female captains (not counting Hikifune), and out of the 13 that were captains in the beginning of the SS arc, there were still only two women. One of them, has yet to show if she is a fighter or just a healer (coughstereotypenurse!cough)

About Unohana. Amazing character she is indeed and one of the most respected captains, and yes, she has one of the highest stat points, that I will not deny. Yet her division is the one in charge of menial task, and considered by others as the "losers". Her division does not receive the respect that they should. So she has the "loser" division, just because they are healers.

The other two female captains we know of: Yoruichi and Soifon. May I quote Kon from the Best Bout poll, when their fight ranked 9: "The only all-female battle in the top 10 [blah blah] Big Boobs vs Small Boobs!!" (I know this is Kon... but please?) Yoruichi is one of the most incredible women in Bleach (she's my favorite). Such a huge potential! She's a captain, she's the Godess of Flash. And with all that potential, her biggest role is to run errands for Urahara. The only major fight she's had was against another woman. And Soifon has one of the deadliest Zanpakuto and yet for whatever reason it's always useless (I control time, My reiatsu blah blah -but wasn't that Momo? Mah!). Go figure. And then her Bankai... well I'm not arguing for that one. But oh well, she was fighting the Second Espada, but of course it was too much for her to handle, a guy had to come and help her. Like always.

Then I'm moving onto lieutenants. There are plenty female lieutenants, present and past. But go figure, most of them don't even seem to have a Zanpakuto. Nanao, Nemu, Yachiru, they appear to be decorative figures. Nanao didn't even show up for Karakura Town. Obviously books aren't gonna cut Hierro, so why bother. Yachiru... is cute. And that's it. She seems to have something up her sleeve (the kitty reiatsu) but never has even showed the disposition to fight. Nemu has only showed her zanpakuto on the Artbook. And she can kick. And yeah. On to more relevant lieutenants, we have Isane, who showed her zanpakuto once... and got kicked in the ass. And she has nightmares. Maybe she has a trauma at how easily Ichigo defeated her? Maybe that's why she and Sasakibe never do anything at all? And our lovely Momo. Everyone's trauma bag (punching bag-trauma bag, I know, lame joke). If you feel like traumatizing someone she's your girl. She has a standard zanpakuto and she's so amazing at Kido. How on earth does she manage to be so LAME? Then when she seemed like she was back in the game... wait, she got "killed" again, by super monster. Almost forgot! Not only can you traumatize her! You can freely use her to traumatize Hitsugaya! Ain't that great! I mean... seriously? Matsumoto. She's awesome. Personality is super cool. And she defeated Kira, that's a super point. And yet she's spent like 300 chapters mourning over Gin (I do love the couple, but it's always the girl crying over the guy and it's getting a bit old). And what annoys me the most, the only thing people within the series seem to find remarkable about her is her breasts. Lovely. But I'm going there later. Kiyone Kotetsu. Not a lieutenant, but a third seat. And while it would seem she's as insignificant as her co-officer, did anyone else notice that it's always her copying him? Subtle is it?

Vizards: The point is mostly the same with all of them. Lisa and Hiyori were fighting Harribel, released their zanpakuto's (I love Haguro Tonbo!) and where every other Vizard got time to show off a little of their power (not much, Kubo killed them off super stupidly, but I'm not going there) both of them got their fight cut short before even showing what they were capable of when Aizen did the Harribel. And then Hiyori was cut in half and Lisa was Aizen'ed. And then Mashiro. She was fending off pretty well and then she was just killed off without real explanation of what really happened. Like really? That wasn't 15 hours, don't give me that crap. And yet again, the macho man had to come in and save her (and get Kensei'd, talk about bad ways to end a fight, poor Kensei)

Now Espada: Cirucci was an overstereotyped lolita and fanservice alert! Go see her panties 'coz that seemed to be the only interesting thing about her. And Szayel called her whore, thank you very much. Nelliel was another amazing character that was dumped to the trash can. She was so powerful, she had this amazing background and this potential to reveal a lot of information from how things work in Las Noches, and these interactions with Nnoitra were delicious to watch, no to mention how she could've become a very stron ally to Ichigo and co. But once again, just in the middle of her fighting, when she was about to defeat the guy, she just disappeared (well, shrank) because "she used up all her reiatsu". Of all the lame excuses. And of course, she got kicked in the ass by Nnoitra. And Harribel. Another very mistreated character. Like seriously? Just in the middle of the fight and she gets killed off so miserably? What's your excuse for that? And she didn't have any of her backgroun revealed, lovely again (the anime doesn't count, she was just kneeling on the ground)

And now our two main girls. First we have Orihime. She embodies the STEREOTYPICAL damsel in distress. She started as well... normal... pretty useless, she always had to be defended by Uryuu, Ichigo or someone else because she couldn't do it by herself. He shield always breaks. He attack lacks intent to kill. Her healing is her only remarkable ability (healing again? suspicious?) And then came the Arrancar arc and the "Kurosaki-kun" of DOOM. It would seem that ever since she met Ulquiorra, she is unable to think of her own, or defend her actions and ideas, and the only word that can come out of her mouth is the awful Kurosaki-kun. She's always crying, she can never fight her way through any hardship she encounters, someone HAS to come and do it for her. "Please don't fight anymore"? Bubbly face vs Grimmjow? As I said, Stereotypical damsel in distress. Then we have Rukia. It's hard to find any traces of this sexism in Rukia, she seems to be perfect. She's pretty, yet she doesn't have big breasts. She's strong, (not as much as big-boobed girls, though *hinthint*). She has this amazing willpower and she doesn't let anyone step on her. Yet in the end, everytime the situation is too much for poor little Rukia to handle... Nii-sama comes to the rescue (or Ichigo, or Renji. Whoever comes in handy). Which happens, almost always. Yet again the girl needs to be rescued all the time.

Now after this long long in-detail character analysis, I'm going to another point. The breast-size. I always joke about how Kubo might not have a girlfriend, so she draws all the girls in huge breasts to make his ideal woman. But honestly, I think Bleach is the most over the top manga I've read in the "breast-size" matter. We all know it and have got used to it. We love Bleach. But it is really objectifying women remarking them just by the size of their breasts. Not only that but making it their only, or most noticeable quality. As I mentioned previously, everyone notes Rangiku's breasts, but I have heard nobody saying she's nice, or funny, or beautiful even, or whatever. Orihime goes through the same stuff. My brother and his girlfriend watch the series too and when they saw Nel's transformation, my sister-in-law asked me if I was bothered by the size of Nellie's breasts, she was like "It's a bit annoying that ALL girls have huge breasts" and I can't really disagree with that.

Finally (will anyone actually read this? It's too long) The fact is that girls get, in my opinion too little screentime in Bleach. Their fights are never nearly as long as all-guy fights (Compare Nnoitra vs Nelliel against Nnoitra vs Kenpachi). Their stories are never as well described, and their strength is rarely balanced against the guys. And still, their numbers are quite scarce considering the huge amount of characters in Bleach. Bleach isn't an all-out sexist story, but I really can't fail to see how all the girls seem to be almost secondary compared to their "equal" male counterparts (captains, Espada, lieutenants, etc.) Who knows, maybe I look to much into it. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  08:17, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah its true, but sorry Lia blame it on Kubo this one. Soulreaper1234 08:21, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Lia covers all the faults pretty thoroughly so I don't have much more to add. Bleach does try to bring in strong female characters but they inevitably end up as backbenchers or fulfilling the 'damsel in distress' role.

Secondly...I noticed that somebody went through and editted OTHER PEOPLE"S CONTRIBUTIONS in addtion to their own. With all due respect please keep your claws to your own stuff and leave other people's writing alone. This is a forum...not the wiki. Thank you! Great Cthulhu 10:55, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

Just a little question, LiaSchiffer, were you using sarcasm when describing your points, like with Cirucci and Momo, or were you just sorta "speaking through the general consensus of the fans"? Truth be told, though, the guys get it as much as the girls do. Look at how Szayel humiliated Renji and Ishida, at how easily Love and Rose were brought down by Starrk, or at Chad's track record of losing 97% of the time, and honestly speaking, in the same way female fans are a bit annoyed at how half of the Bleach girls have big boobs, I (as a male fan) find it a bit irritating at how practically every single Bleach guy has a very muscular chest (even Ishida) or overly-pretty face (Szayel, Luppi, Noba, Ggio, Ulquiorra) and how they're ALWAYS the ones getting their clothes torn apart/ripped off, Ichigo being the worst offender. Krone8 00:54, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Krone has a pretty good point...

I'd say such things still happen a bit more frequently to female characters, though. In any case, I think fanservice like this plays a fairly large role in attracting readers, though it certainly isn't the main attraction to this manga... Ratiqu 20:29, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

If anything the 'fanservice' is distracting. It's too predictable and pointless. Since Kubo is reluctant to include any sort of romantic relationship in Bleach it makes the big boobies in your face a unfunny nuisance really. Great Cthulhu 21:57, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

Following that logic, Great Cthulu, then I think that would make all the muscular chests and male-exclusive clothing damage equally pointless, predictable, distracting and an all-around unfunny nuisance, but that's just me. Not trying to start off a flame war, though, just pointing out some double standards. Krone8 03:27, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

It's OK. I'm not offended. But I also don't agree with you that the way Kubo handles male vs female fanservice is equivalent either. The examples you cited earlier of male fanservice were usually of victory & defeat, dominance & submission....fights between men for various reasons, but in none of the cases were they overtly sexual overtones. The ripped shirts were incidental to that.

The females in Bleach are often handled differently. Most of them can't go two feet without a horny stuffed lion grabbing their boobs and yelling how lovely they are. Or their clothing borders on stripperwear rather than the more practical garb of the men. Or the women themselves are constantly referencing their attributes for no particular reason fundamental to the story or their characters. Sexualizing the female character was the whole reason for the scene. Thats why its predictable and pointless.

I'm not adverse to fanservice and chainmail bikinis. But I like a sense of style and story integrity to go along with it. Bleach is kind of clumsy that way. Great Cthulhu 03:48, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

For the incidentally ripped shirts, I agree, but try to tell that to those overly-pleased fangirls. For the Kon/Keigo reference, I don't remember any boob-grabbing in the entire series' run, aside from Chizuru's antics, but them "appreciating the view" is limited only to Chizuru, Keigo and Kon, the resident comic relief characters; it's something to expect from those three, and they're always denied any further advances on the women by either fellow classmates (Tatsuki for Chizuru), or the girls themselves (Rukia to Kon, and Rangiku to Keigo). As for the near-stripperiffic clothing, true enough, the Arrancar girls, Lilynette and Harribel especially, are the worst offenders of that in Bleach, but the female shinigami uniforms tend to cover about as much their male counterparts do, and the closest we've ever come to any skin exposure from female shinigami would be from their legs (Nemu) or boobs (Rangiku), and even then, such skin-bearing heights is rare. As for the Arrancar, I think the main reason why Harribel's released form shows as much as it does is because Kubo wanted to make up for all the eye-candy Ichigo gave off during his fight with Ulquiorra. Double standard or author appeal, either one is as good as the other, but I think it could be a little bit of both. For Nelliel, considering she was only wearing a garb-robe thing most of the time she was a kid, it's only logical that the clothes would rip apart and show plenty of skin. Dunno about Lilynette or Leona-released Mila-Rose, though, but honestly, nobody seems to be complaining at how Grimmjow's unbuttoned shirt barely even qualifies as one, since it shows just about everything he has for his chest.

As for the "referencing their attributes" remark, the only Bleach girl that's ever done that is Rangiku, and it's part of her personality; poking fun of her boobs is what she makes her, her. Rarely does she ever use them to seduce any of the males, and the one time she did (on Ichigo), it pretty much failed. Besides, as far as I can remember, this is mainly just played for laughs, and is quite rare compared to the volleying insults-style slapstick goin' on between Ichigo and Rukia, among many others, so I don't think its sole purpose is to over-sexualize the women. Krone8 04:30, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Well, i think Lia Schiffer pretty much covered everything that ever bothered me. And another guy brought up which i had noticed subconsciously, about that sexism related to men in the series that had also bothered me, but had taken in stride because this a manga, a comic, and in fight scenes clothing can rip, blah, blah, blah. But I would like to mention that Bleach started out pretty good about sexism. Only as the series went on did it become more risque, with Harribel and others bearing more and more skin (and more probably boob), but thats normal. Always trying to shock and one-up itself. I shudder to think at where he may go from here. But I have noticed tones of sexism starting to pall through Bleach. ONE female espada. (and one half, i guess) NO female powerhouses (powerhouses being main leader type peoples, aka Ichigo, Yama, Shinji, Aizen, Urahara, etc), TWO female captains, one former, and of those two one never fights, as well as other small things. ah, well. That's how the manga crumbles I guess.

True enough, males outnumber (and in some cases, even outclass) females in Bleach, but at least it's not like in Naruto, where all but three girls fought and beat their opponents (Temari soundly defeated Tenten and Tayuya without so much as a scratch, Tsunade may not have won exactly, but at least she held her own against Orochimaru, and Mei Terumi is a kage, so of course Sasuke wouldn't be a match for her). Compared to Kishimoto's handling of his female characters, it almost makes Kubo seem pro-feminist or something lol. Krone8 22:02, June 28, 2010 (UTC)