Talk:Jin Kariya

Junk Trivia?

 * Jin Kariya's powers were presented somewhat inconsistently throughout his appearance. He fought two captain-level Shinigamis' Bankais (Byakuya Kuchiki and Ichigo Kurosaki) at once without releasing his doll, but when he received the power of the Jokai Crest and also released his doll's full power, he lost to Ichigo's Bankai alone, despite Ichigo not gaining in strength in between the encounters (although Ichigo's power level is known to fluctuate depending on his level of resolve).

I don't usually do this, but this lengthy trivia came across to me as redundant and all-around unecessary. Because of its size, I didn't want to delete it right off the bat. Am I the only one that thinks that there is something wrong with it?Mohrpheus 18:23, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

I doesn't serve any real purpose, but it makes sense to point out. Kariya, after all, is one of the most powerful anime characters, and the level of his power is questioned throughout the series.--Kylecharmed 22:29, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

You are correct. That is a junk trivia and it has now been removed and no, it is not our job to point this out as it is a form of opinion. If the reader draws this opinion based on what's written in the synopsis section then that's great. But as a wiki, we shouldn't really provide commentary like that. Tinni  (Talk)  00:17, January 16, 2010 (UTC)

ichigo vs kariya
in the article it says that ichigo defeated kariya but didnt kariya defeat ichigo and then disintigrated into dustKDOTKAY88 21:31, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

Invalid Picture?
I am highly suspicious of this picture. It's definitely not from the anime, so I suggest for it to be replaced with a picture from the actual anime that shows this particular version of Kariya. Gold3263301 02:05, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

It looks almost fanart-like but even if its not fanart, it's most definitely from a game. I am removing it for now but not putting a delete notice. Let's see if anyone can identify the episode and scene its suppose to be from. Tinni  (Talk)  03:00, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

I highly doubt it's from a game, since Kariya has never been in a video game. However, it still may very well be from some other form of media, like a DVD set or a card image. Either way, you're right to say it's an invalid picture, since the source isn't from the anime. He does wear that outfit before his mansion is destroyed, but if we were to use an image regarding this (personally I don't think it's necessary), then we should probably go for something in the anime. Arrancar109 (Talk)  03:36, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Jōkaishō
Isn't the Jōkaishō one of Kariya's powers, even if he just attained it?--Gran Danku 19:17, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

Great to Immense
Considered doing this during my current overhaul edit, but for the sake of adhering to the rules that so many ignore and on the off chance that I'm just overly favoring a character I like, I figure I should put it up for discussion first here instead.

In my opinion, we should classify Kariya as having Immense Spiritual Power instead of merely Great for a few reasons:
 * 1) The guy manhandled Ichigo using his Shikai with just his bare hands, not even getting his Doll involved, during their first couple fights.
 * 2) Kariya having fused with Messer is stated to have enhanced the power of both, in Kariya's case physically and spiritually.
 * 3) Kariya proceeds to evenly match Byakuya fricking Kuchiki during their fight prior to Ichigo showing up and making it a 2-on-1.
 * 4) Kariya not only consumed living Souls, which explicitly boosts Bount power way above average, but also drank the most Bitto serum out of any of his group, which does the aforementioned but with even more potency.
 * 5) Finally, he's consistently on-par with Ichigo using Tensa Zangetsu every time they clash, and that's when Ichigo's got inflated/boosted Reiryoku and Reiatsu of his own.

So yeah, I feel like Great is kinda lowballing him, but I'm open to being proven wrong. If there's consensus on this, though, I'll make the change in the overhaul I'm currently working on.--Xilinoc (talk) 02:32, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I would say that as far as a one off filler arc villain I'm not sure his feats in this regard are legitimate enough to say he's more than what the arc required of a villain. Hence why its just 'great', is his showing more than others in his position? As we all know Ichigo is never a good judge of others powers anymore then we can judge him by his own ever changing power, as you know he's protected by shonen plot armor. Just my points on it. 05:59, 5 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but what about Byakuya, who is consistently powerful?--Xilinoc (talk) 06:06, 5 May 2021 (UTC)


 * While I agree with Sal that comparing him to Ichigo (especially at that point in the timeline) might not be the best way to rate him, Xil does have a point that fighting equally with Byakuya (who is probably next to Shunsui and Ukitake when it comes to both power and skill then) is a feat of its own. Granted, it's been years since I watched the Bount arc, so my memory on it's a bit foggy, but if Xil says that Kariya could rival Byakuya, then I don't see a reason not to list him as "Immense".
 * Besides, at least Kariya has some explanation for his power; as opposed to Ōko Yushima, who is "Soul Society destroying powerful" without any real reason, afaik.Timjer (talk) 07:33, 5 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Normally I would agree with Sal, but Kariya is kind of a special case, because when presented in the context of the anime, Kariya and his power had more long term impacts on the plot and unlike other non-canon villains, he is referenced at least once past the Bount arc. Since his power set is explained well enough and his impact in the anime, I agree with Xil in rewording the article a bit. 13:24, 5 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Alright, with a consensus of 3 to 1, I'll make the change. Glad I wasn't alone in seeing it.--Xilinoc (talk) 23:17, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Personality Section
To say that I am stunned would, in fact, be doing that sensation a cruel injustice. With all due respect to the admin who edited this article, as I can tell it was done out of passion, albeit misplaced...this misses the point of a personality section entirely. A personality section is meant to give the sense of an individual in broad strokes - what is there now reads not only as a personality section, but as a history section, combined into one sole addition. Please tell me that this was added in jest, that Xilinoc merely has a sense of humour that is not quite understandable. Kariya's personality section is now longer than Ichigo, Aizen, and Kisuke's sections combined, with room to spare. I would implore that this be adjusted for the sake of actual readability. You are the only BLEACH wiki, and your goal should be for articles to be written in manners which are concise and pleasing to the eye, not amateur's first fanfiction article.--Cuter than you ( talk to me ) 17:29, 16 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Text Reduction is something that can be done, if we agree we can cull that, as we have a general rule on removing referenced info, but I agree, that is an Essay when the History and Plot sections should elaborate on that. I would agree that's gotten cluttered.


 * I agree with you except that parts of the personality should go into the relationship section, like create a new sub heading. Either improve Ichigo and main characters personality or reduce Kariya personality. But I do think it is well written, just misplaced. Yau JJ the Editor (talk) 01:21, 17 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I appreciate the swift and kind response, SunXia. I am glad to see that I made any points which were taken positively; I admire passion for non-canon characters - even I like one of them - but the stark difference between this article and every other now makes it stand out, and stand out poorly. I do hope that either Kariya is abridged in its contents, or other personality sections elongated to match.--Cuter than you ( talk to me ) 04:08, 17 May 2023 (UTC)


 * To be honest, I wrote out that "essay" with the intention of eventually lengthening and further detailing Ichigo, Aizen, Urahara, and other major characters' personality sections to match (by myself or with help from others) - many of them are too blunt or lacking examples for the fairly dynamic characters they speak for. I do find it strange that it took two years for people to notice that I filled out the page like this and start complaining, especially when I did the exact same for all the other Bount in my overhaul - 24+ months of silence and occasional praise doesn't exactly lead me to believe this is the kind of problem a few people are now claiming it is.


 * When it comes to detail, I err on the side of "more is good" over "less is good"; you don't want a reader to feel like a description of something is incomplete, and covering many facets of something can only help rather than hurt. Moreover, I question what, exactly, needs to be cut or reduced from the section, what exactly is so superfluous and unnecessary for explaining the context of Kariya's character and behavior that it should never have been added in the first place - even if I try to hit every angle when detailing a personality, I'm not out here writing in "he once looked sideways at Ichigo and smirked", writing out eeeeevery little action this man's ever performed. Every detail I added in there is important to contextualizing and proving each facet of the character that I'm writing about, and I'm standing by that.


 * Now, as mentioned above, I'm quite open to other characters' personality sections being expanded in a similar manner because I will always, always approve of filling out pages and covering as much as we can about a given topic - what I won't give into is the idea of reducing section lengths not to remove redundant or false information, but "just because", as though readers' eyes will begin glazing over or stop transmitting information to their brains if there's more than five sentences to read. I'd been at this for over eight years by the time I got to Kariya's article, so I really don't appreciate being called an amateur writing his first fanfiction article (especially considering I've seen some of those that actually rot the brain with length and fluff), and I won't be lowering my standards of writing to match your own; I'd advise that people hand-wringing over this put that energy into writing on and improving the many, many other articles on the wiki that need more information and detail. With all due respect, of course.--Xilinoc (talk) 06:23, 17 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I will address the last portion of your message before the rest of it. When you italicise something the way you did there, it only makes it obvious that you are being disingenuous. I know this was the intention, do not worry - I am aware, more or less, how differing opinions here are treated when they stand in opposition to what administration wants. While I do appreciate SunXia maintaining the dignity an admin should have when dealing with a normal user - and I would like to restate that, as I fear this conversation may veer into the realm of antagonism from Xilinoc's next response forward, and SunXia, you have my sincerest apologies should this take that unnecessary and dreadful course - Xilinoc, you might avoid lacing your responses in official adminship capacity with enough venom to make Suzumebachi blush. Regardless, if you wish to lengthen other character personality sections to match, go ahead. However, the length of which Jin's current personality section has reached defeats the purpose of the section. They are meant to give a rough overview of the character's personality; an audience does not need thirteen paragraphs of extensive writing to understand the general outline of a character's persona. Ichigo's personality section, as it is written, is actually splendid: it covers every important part of his personality, from youth to current, in a concise and neat manner, without overbearing a reader with an excess of information, and a needless amount of citations. Your sole standards do not need to be lowered, but there should be a general consensus on how these sections are written, that are not decided by one lone wolf. I'm not sure how this wiki's admin system runs - be there a head admin, or some such similar position of acclaim - and you might even be the one who rests at the helm, but your standards alone should not be the end all be all.  While I do not make many edits here myself, and I mention this here before it is used against me as if it lessens my suggestions in any such way, I do believe, as the now only BLEACH wiki that exists in the English language, your goal should be concisely written articles, as opposed to essays. Yes, Jin's personality is analysed here down to the last iota, but that is excessive in the extreme, especially for a filler antagonist who was never mentioned again after his last forced appearance during Zangetsu's fight with Ichigo. I do not deny that this must have been quite a bit of work to stretch this out to such a length - it appears you have been at this since 2019. However, I once again request that the adminship as a whole look at this personality section and narrow it down to the finer points; you shouldn't be forced to do it, if it would cause too much grief for you, but another admin who is less biased and more reasonable to adjustments, perhaps. Regardless, I bid you good day, and I do hope this issue with be looked into further. I'm quite sure detail can be conveyed while ensuring it does not drag on, as other articles prove it is possible, and represent was a personality section should be much better than what Jin Kariya now has on his page.--Cuter than you ( talk to me ) 06:48, 17 May 2023 (UTC)
 * As a final aside, I will not be responding further. I am familiar with being talked around in circles during discussions here, so I cannot say I expect this to be much different. I was hoping for some change, as Sunxia was polite, quick, and dutiful in their response, and I cannot state how much I appreciate seeing that here.--Cuter than you ( talk to me ) 06:53, 17 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Apologies for butting in, but Xil you might want to tone down on being feeling offended like that. I don't think YaoiShadowRuler meant to insult you, we all can appreciate your hard work and you write very well. That being said, I can understand both sides. On one hand, while Kariya's section is certainly very detailed and well written, it is jarring to see it that it so much more detailed compared to some canon characters. On the other hand, people have to understand that Xil and I are practically keeping this entire wiki up-to-code by ourselves, with Xil doing even more than I do. While we occasionally get some help from others, it does sometimes feel like a very thankless & taxing job with no real rewards. So seeing people criticize us comes across harder than it's intended. Timjer (talk) 08:58, 17 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I get the feeling, Timjer. I always like to get some feedback in my work in the abandoned wikis but as the adjective says, abandoned. So I got no one to review my wiki or barely noticed. Not to mention the lack of planning I have and most of the work I done are in the moment or cleaning up redlinks and stuff. That said, the personality is actually well written, my only problem is that it should be split but nothing more. (PS thanks for the criticism back at the Soul King edit, at least I know I am terrible at grammar.) Yau JJ the Editor (talk) 14:58, 18 May 2023 (UTC)


 * As the continued discussion has not turned into an argument, I feel comfortable contributing further. I by no means wish to belittle your efforts in maintaining this wiki - I too am familiar with being one of few contributors to a massive project, though the wiki to which I found my efforts best placed has now crumbled to dust. Regardless, your addition and wording is appreciated, Timjer; it cannot be easier working on a wiki where so few contribute anymore, but I do believe at the same time additional opinions from passing readers - nay, especially from passing readers - ought to be considered. This wiki is, after all, a resource for others outside the adminship to peruse and glean information from. Regardless, I attribute your candor and willingness to speak plainly and courteously.--Cuter than you ( talk to me ) 01:52, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Additionally, and I wish to phrase this was plainly as I can, and I ask that you do not take this offensively. Who is this wiki for? Is it for the admins, or is it for the fanbase of BLEACH? As fandom admins, your group has created a resource, a public resource, which is meant to be a database collection for individuals outside of yourselves to consume. In that same vein, suggestions and feedback from outsiders - your readership, as it were - should be taken into account. I have seen this wikia takes criticism or suggestions before - in my experience, and in the experience of those I know, present and past - this wikia has been both hostile and confrontational. The very fact that Xilinoc took my criticism of his work on Kariya as a personal slight, when his response as an admin should have been instead to at the least pretend to consider my points as the leadership of this wiki. As the currently only BLEACH wiki in active use, BLEACH Wiki is meant to be the face of BLEACH documentation, and thus, should have a leadership who is more open and forgiving. The light novel debacle and extended universe discussion on this wiki is not forgotten. You speak of being the only two to hold this wiki up, and while that may be true, it is an environment and situation you create for yourselves. BLEACH wiki has personally alienated multiple individuals I know who would only be too happy to voice suggestions, contribute content, and help grow this wiki, if only individual such as Xilinoc would make themselves more approachable. Those of us who tried to document this series ourselves but were made to stop, are some such people who would be only too pleased to come back, if this wiki had an environment welcoming to those outside, and had an adminship who did not forget what it means to make a public database.--Babochka ( Disappear into the sea of butterflies. ) 02:23, 18 May 2023 (UTC)


 * We're only hostile to people who either currently are or have a history of personally attacking us for any number of "slights", are stealing our hard work to claim as their own on a duplicate wiki that they'll proceed to abandon within 6 months anyway, and/or want to boss others around without doing any actual work themselves. Not hard to get on our good side if you come with good intent. Moving on, if a majority of people here are in favor of making a separate relationships subsection for Kariya (and, eventually, other characters whose pages get fleshed out sufficiently), I'm not opposed to making the change so long as the content is preserved. Those in favor say aye?--Xilinoc (talk) 04:42, 18 May 2023 (UTC)