Talk:Chōjirō Sasakibe/Archive 1

Name
Anyone who is greatly interest in Japanese history, the Sengoku Era in particular, may know where I am going with this. I am refering to Kojiro Sasaki. Chojiro Sasakibe and Kojiro Sasaki have similar sounding names Kojiro Sasaki in known for being the rival of the famous swordsman Musashi Miyamoto and being defeated by him at Ganryu Island. Chojiro's zanpakuto, Gonryomaru, also sounds similar to Ganryu (Ganryu/Gonryo) which was Kojiro's fighting name.


 * This would not be allowed on the articles as it is speculation. We cannot prove that Sasakibe is based on/inspired by this guy unless there is an official source saying that he is. -- Yyp  (Talk)  12:37, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

I understand. I didn't mean to say he was based off of Kojiro Sasaki. I just found it interesting how their names sound similar. Sorry if i gave you the wrong idea. --SouthandNorthKorea 17:25, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

Is Lightning Manipulation Chojiro Sasakibe's Shikai special ability?
According to the filler arc Zanpakuto Unknown Tales, Sasakibe's Zanpakuto Gonryomaru can manipulate Lightning. Based on that fact, can somebody say that the special ability of the Shikai form of Sasakibe's Zanpakuto is also Lighning Manipulation? the reason I'm telling this is because I love lightning and rapiers. If a combination like this exists it would make me very happy(and of course Sasakibe will be my favorite character). Can somebody confirm this or at least give me a hint about Sasakibe's Zanpakuto special ability?( I know that until now he hasn't used his shikai's special ability).

Well thats just it, the filler arc is the only thing that showed this ability, it was never hinted at or confirmed in the manga at all. As per the policies the issue has become somewhat caught as there is no precedent to take something from the anime and place it as it could contrast with the manga material if the material is ever released. The manga as the creation of the Tite Kubo has to come first before any other material. --Salubri (Talk)  14:19, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Isn't worth mentioning though? Just mention that it comes from the anime and isn't considered canonical (currently). --Stevedroid (talk) 04:44, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

No. In the same filler, Tenken, Komamura's zanpakuto spirit, had Fire abilities, which contradicts what we know about Komamura's abilities, so that shows that the anime gave some spirits abilities regardless of the nature of their true power. So far there has been no indication that Sasakibe can use that sort of ability, and even during that arc, he wasn't seen performing any lightning based attack, so there is no base to mention it in the article. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  05:22, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

English VA Correction
He's voiced by Dan Woren in season 6 and the rest of the episodes. It has been confirmed at AnimeNewsNetwork. A-Stone (talk) 15:22, May 11, 2011 (UTC)A-Stone

Age
"Chōjirō is a man who appears to be in his late 40's" Is describing him as a 40-year-old man necessary? I don't think it's right, seeing as he is over 100 years old and Shinigami aren't human or something. And he's dead isn't he? He was all x.x and bleeding through his gut. or something. and Nh18az9 (talk) 04:21, March 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * Removed, speculative at its best.--

Appearance
In Chojiro's Appearance section, it states that he has pupil=less eyes, but he is clearly shown with pupils in the image right next to this.
 * His eyes have no pupils in the manga (for recent example check the last couple of manga chapters) but the anime gave him pupils. This is noted in the trivia section. Also, please remember to sign your posts so that it is clear who is posting. This can be done by typing four tildes ( ~ ) at the end of your post or by clicking the signature button at the top of the edit window. 12:14, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

Change his Bankai information to "Not Achieved"?
As he is now dead, surely that denotes that he never attained bankai, unless Kubo reveals he was a bankai user, or he comes back, can't it be confirmed that he won't achieve bankai? Oliverfalcon (talk) 20:44, March 21, 2012 (UTC)Oliverfalcon

I think it should be changed to "Not Revealed" or something like that. There is no proof that he did not achieve bankai. Also, when he was talking to Yamamoto in his last moments, he mentioned that the Vandenreich could do something to bankai. The only reason he could have known this is that either one of the attackers told him, or he attempted to use bankai and the opponent used that bankai affecting technique on him. --Kamikaze839 (talk) 18:37, March 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Kubo stated a while ago Chojiro did not have Bankai and did not meet the criteria to be a captain. Nothing has changed since then. He will be listed as having not achieved bankai until such a time that there is something to contradict this.--

Thanks for clearing that up Kamikaze839 (talk) 18:42, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

Actually all I recall Kubo saying was that he would never be captain as long as Yamamoto was around and that even if that was the case he really wasnt captain material. I dont recall him ever being specific of whether or not he had a bankai or for anyone under a captain actually. It would be logical to assume that 110 + years in his position its very possible that he may have achieved bankai. Also a good point is brought up, unless the Vandenreich are extremely incompetent and give away such information how would it be possible for him to have known that, unless he himself had one. In truth We dont know so keeping it as not yet achieved is fine. Its kind of an unimportant discussion unless new information becomes available. --Salubri (Talk)  19:48, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

Chojiro's complete name
In chapter 486, page 6, Byakuya name the recently deceaded Lieutenant Chojiro Tadaoki Sasakibe. Should we change the name of Chojiro's page. User: Murcielago 83 18:54, March 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, we do first name last name naming order. His middle name is listed first thing on his page.--
 * That controdicts Yamamoto's name then. Please tell me why we list Genryūsai Shigekuni Yamamoto full name in the address bar? Unless you mean we can also rename this page Chojiro's full name; middle included. --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 18:20, March 28, 2012 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi


 * Well first off Yamamoto's name exists as exactly that in every manga, anime, video game, movie and databook he is mentioned in. Secondly Genryusai isn't even in his name its a honorific title. --Salubri (Talk)  18:54, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

Another Shikai Pic
I noticed whie reading 484 that Chokiro was holding his shikai. Maybe we can use it?Umishiru (talk) 20:27, April 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * We already have a pic of his Shikai, not much need of another, it hasn't changed.--

"Was Former"
There's a bit of a grammatical mix-up in this article. It says that Sasakibe "was the former lieutenant of the 1st Division." This isn't quite correct; he either "was the lieutenant" or he "is the former lieutenant." If you say he "was the former lieutenant" and the past-tense "was" is because he's dead, then the sentence actually means that he used to be the former lieutenant before he died, which is untrue. It's small, but it's bothering me. So can we change it? Avolling (talk) 06:25, July 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * Fixed, thanks for pointing it out. 15:25, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Sasakibe's Name
I just wanted to raise the fact that the English re-ordering of Sasakibe's name on this page doesn't reflect the Japanese one correctly. There is a convention in Japanese history of warriors having an additional name which indicates their rank in the family. Speculating, Choujirou could be this kind of name, but even if you ignore that possibility, Japanese culture doesn't utilise actual middle names in the way of the West and Tadaoki is definitely a formal personal name, so should be listed as his first name (even if he is known under the name Choujirou). Is it all right to change the order to Tadaoki Choujirou Sasakibe?Vraieesprit (talk) 00:20, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

I believe that it will be fine if the order of his name stays as it currently is.--


 * Well, it's your call. I just thought that it would be better if the site was culturally correct...ut if you think it doesn't matter, I shall leave it be.Vraieesprit (talk) 00:43, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Bankai PIcture.
Which scene should we use to display Chojiro's bankai?

Exhibit A: http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/504/3 We have a clear shot of the bankai only with Driscol in it not Chojiro.

Exhibit B: http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/504/4 A close up of the bankai's lightning pillars but with Chijiro in it.

Exhibit C: http://www.mangapanda.com/bleach/504/7 We have the bankai and its abillity being used but of course Driscol is in it instead of Chojiro.Umishiru (talk) 13:44, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

The image of Sasakibe in Bankai doesnt really show much, so I don't think that image is worthwhile for the article. The one from the previous page is probably best. Even though it shows Berci instead, it is more of a silhouette than anything and it clearly shows the whole Bankai better than the other images. 16:46, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

I'm with Yyp on this. Sasakibe was never shown on-panel using his Bankai before this chapter, and the instance he is shown isn't drawn very well, and we want the best images available to illustrate the technique. Additionally, we have an image of Aaroniero using Nejibana on Kaien Shiba's page, so the technique not being used by its intended user isn't something unheard of in this wiki when it needs to be displayed. Arrancar109 (Talk)  17:05, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Shikai ability
Since his bankai confirmed Sakisabe's Zanpakutou is a lightning-type weapon, we can now assume that it's abilities displayed by the Spirit during Zanpakutou Unknown tales apply also to his Shikai. I know that someone probably will bring this up, so I'll say this in advance - I know he didn't show in the manga. Back than we couldn't state that his powers were the same, because it was a filler and they're known for their inconsequency with the manga-base material. Now it's okay, because knowing his Bankai is closely tied to lightining in the manga, we can safely assume that Gyonomaru's powers dipslayed int the Zanpakutou arc, are also true in manga-canon--Nekosama (talk) 14:37, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily. While we can say that his Zan is a Lightning type, we don't know to what extent those powers existed in his shikai form manga wise. After all, Komamura's zan spirit in the arc showed fire abilities but in the manga it never as much as hinted to being a fire type zan. Another thing, his shikai spirit also had water/cloud abilities as well but we know manga wise it isn't the case. Basically I am saying all the anime was able to guess is what element Chojiro's zan deals with but until shown otherwise or confirmed by Kubo, none of the attacks and abilities shown in the filler arc can be attributed to his shikai unless that anime arc has Chojiro actually using it. Manga wise all we saw was his shikai release and form, and then we only saw the lightning part of his zan when its in bankai form.Umishiru (talk) 15:06, August 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * We can assume nothing. The Zanpakuto arc is 100% non canon and noting from that arc will ever be considered canon. As far as we know, the lightning is only his Bankai. We have seen other Zanpakuto's that gain a new ability in Bankai, such as Gin's poison. There will be no assuming or speculating. We write only what was seen.--


 * Jeez, You always say the same damn thing. Its about time for You to realize that anime is the extension of manga universe so it's never 100 % non canon but rather less canon than the manga. Manga info are the basic source but also the nesessary minimum and if anime expands some aspects, without contradicting with base material, I don't see a reason why it should be ignored. As for Chojiro's shikai - wouldn't go that far as the Gyonomaru's article does. Only a statement that his zanpakutou is a lightnig/electricyty type and can control the weather based on Hisagi's reaction and abilities displayed in ten Zan arc wich were conforimed by the Bankai to be true. No unnesary speculation--Nekosama (talk) 08:33, August 25, 2012 (UTC).


 * There are numerous problems with using the filler arc, some of which have been mentioned above. Putting them aside, what about Sogyo no Kotowari using ligthning, fans and scrolls; Hisagomaru turning in to a cannon; Kazeshini being able to launch shockwaves with his shikai; Hyorinmaru uses Sennen Hyōrō outside of Bankai which Hitsugaya hasnt been shown to be capable of; Tenken using a whip and Gonryomaru uses a pike? Things that the anime-only characters had but the manga based characters did not. Liberties were clearly taken with the spirits abilities and it has established itself as being unreliable as a source for this. It is already mentioned that he has lightning abilities, in the Bankai section which is what Hisagi was reacting to. We will not presume anything more on this. This discussion is not really going anywhere but in circles and is bordering on becoming unnecessarily antagonistic if allowed to continue. Therefore I am closing it before it gets out of hand. We will all just have to agree to disagree and move on to something more constructive. 09:45, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Bankai name
MangaPanda/MangaReader calls his Bankai Kokō Konryō Rikyū, while MangaStream uses Gonryō instead of Konryō. I believe Kokō Gonryō Rikyū is the right form, as it comes from Gonryōmaru, but it is better someone with actual japanese knowledge check this before making an edit. Coutinho305 (talk) 21:28, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * It is in the translation corner. When one of our translators gets to it, the proper form will be put in place should it be different than what is on there.--


 * I thought that we were waiting for a raw before altering the Bankai information and kanji? My reason for asking is that the kanji on the page doesn't match the translation. The translation matches the kanji I've seen discussed on Japanese sites (黄煌厳霊離宮) but I was waiting for a raw to be posted before I changed anything because I wanted a reliable source, especially for the reading. I just noticed the page had been changed, but if the kanji and the translation aren't a match, one of them must be wrong.Vraieesprit (talk) 15:19, August 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Kōkō Konryō Rikyū does seem to be the way it's spelled (黄煌厳霊离宫), assuming the Kanji are correct, although there's no sign of why gon from the Shikai Gonryō[maru] has become kon in the Bankai, esp. since--unlike ken (譴) in Komamura's Zanapakutō's name--the k- version is not a generally accepted reading of the Kanji (could it be some mistake, with the dakuten omitted by accident, that was just endlessly repeated across all the other pages?). The Kanji in question (with the purported hiragana spelling I found them with, こうこうこんりょうりきゅう), look like they mean "yellow-gleaming stern soul palace of marvel"; the Kanji 离 ri was a real pain, since it seems to be a rare form, and has the primary meanings (again, it seems) of "elegant, strange; marvel(ous)", but is also (at least in derivatives) sometimes used for "release, disperse; depart".


 * I chose "marvel" because it seemed in keeping with Sasakibe's whole schtick of loving English things and being formal, as well as the admitted grand spectacle of its techniques, but that's just an educated (if pretty possible) guess. It's like the trouble with en of Engetsu all over again. Adam Restling (talk) 01:31, September 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Translation corner has already discussed this. Your penultimate kanji is wrong, so I guess you got that from a forum, not from the raw linked in the TC? I'm pretty sure your difficult character is actually a simplified Chinese one rather than one in general Japanese use. The correct one is from "hanareru" 離 - "to separate" or "be separated from". Also has been raised with me whether to translate rikyuu as "imperial villa" or not. There is some evidence that rikyuu (as a compound) is often translated like this. That would make it Glittering Yellow Imperial Villa of the Solemn Spirit. It depends whether we view rikyuu as a compound (seeing as Koukou and Gonryou are NOT compounds but separate ideas) or not. Since it was raised with me I thought I should mention it here too and leave it to admin to decide what's best. We've already established from the raw that the correct reading is Koukougonryourikyuu.Vraieesprit (talk) 09:52, September 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * UPDATE: Thanks to the efforts of Blackstar1 and others, I was able to get a raw of the page in question (you have to go to this main page, then click on the first page with young Yama's face; otherwise image is replaced by a "no hyperlinking"-type dealy-o), and it confirms that the sources I've been working with re: the Kanji were mistaken as to which Kanji was used for the ri part. The version given above me by Vraiee (黄煌厳霊離宮) seems to be correct, with 離 and not the variant 离 being used. This also seems to confirm that a better translation than mine above, then, would be "yellow-gleaming royal villa of stern soul" (quite similar to Vraiee's). As related elsewhere, this last, 離宮 rikyuu "royal villa", seems more lit. to be "separated/partitioned palace/shrine", giving the impression of an exclusive (and secluded) garth; compare, maybe, the fact that English paradise originally meant "walled around (place)".


 * Apologies to Vraiee; as my talk of hyperlink trouble and confusion above illustrates, I had trouble locating the "linked to raw from the TC" mentioned. But, Vraiee, I hope you now understand, too, how I went awry, and that I meant no harm; I hope you'll have some patience with me, given these extenuations, and continue your good job. :)


 * And, though it's faint, it does seem like there are a pair of dakuten on the third こ (sic. = ご), and so the proper romanization, too, should be changed to Kōkō G onryō Rikyū. Vraiee gives this as confirmed before I do; I didn't realize it 'til recently.


 * As for word boundaries, I generally separate my renderings based on what seem to be sensible semantic groups, e.g. KATENKYOUKOTSU > my Katen Kyoukotsu "flower-heaven mad-bone". I try to apply this to all my renderings, and thus I wrote KOUKOUGONRYOURIKYUU (that is, the unspaced block of data) as Koukou Gonryou Rikyuu, separating blocks of meaning where seemed appropriate. Sometimes I also add words which Japanese lacks, like the, or subvert the strict order, to avoid robbing the poesy of the original term with a robotic-sounding and austerely-literal translation.


 * Star also made another good catch by bringing up this Mangahelpers comment that reveals that gonryō, though as written still meaning "stern soul", was also sometimes found for one of the words for "thunder", ikazuchi, in archaic Japanese. Very interesting. Adam Restling (talk) 10:07, September 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * No　personal criticism intended, just trying to keep on topic! Spacing is subjective, I just mentioned it because of the translation issue. I also agree on stern rather than Solemn but Wiki already has Solemn Spirit for Gonryoumaru. On the subject of archaic Japanese, my Classical-Modern Japanese paper dictionary only gives the kanji　雷 as the reading for both 「いかづち」 and 「かみなり」. An online dictionary, however, gives the alternate 厳つ霊「いか・つ・ち」 with the meaning of 雷. Should that be taken into consideration with the translation of the sword name?
 * Edit to add: I apparently said something I shouldn't above. My apologies if I came across in a bad way, it wasn't at all intended.Vraieesprit (talk) 12:36, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

200 or 2000 years
In MangaPanda version is "[...] he hasn't used his Bankai in over 200 years!", but MangaStream "[...] he hadn't used his Bankai in over 2000 years!". Which version is correct? http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120125122424/central/images/thumb/0/03/Ponurak.png/24px-Ponurak.pngPonurak http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120125122430/central/images/thumb/5/5a/Ponurak2.png/24px-Ponurak2.png 09:06, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

I would ask the Translation Corner. This is something that seems to have some sort of translation fault on one of these two translators. Which one is clearly unknown right now, so the best thing to do is locate a RAW and ask the Translation Corner to translate it. Arrancar109 (Talk)  09:15, August 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * 2000 is the most likely answer, simply because in chapter 486 (p.5) at Sasakibe's funeral, Byakuya says Sasakibe hasn't used it since before the founding of the Gotei. There's no raw yet for the 504 page, when there is I'll check, but I think this one can be settled on common sense since we know - and the Bleach Wiki Yamamoto page already has the reference - that Yama was CC of the Gotei from around 1000 years ago. Vraieesprit (talk) 11:39, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

2000. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120125122424/central/images/thumb/0/03/Ponurak.png/24px-Ponurak.pngPonurak http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120125122430/central/images/thumb/5/5a/Ponurak2.png/24px-Ponurak2.png 18:54, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Minor fix
A little thing...in Saskibe's Bankai section there's a minimal writing error: "Kōkōgonryōrikyū is a Bankai of great reiatsu capable of affecting the weather similar to the way that Tōshirō Hitsugaya's Hyōrinmaru can though its power is geared toward thunder & lighting storms...". It should lightning. Since the page is locked, could anyone with the power to edit, correct that? Darksusanoo (talk) 00:53, August 26, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks, its fixed now. 11:56, August 26, 2012 (UTC)

First Usage of Bankai
Why was the comment about Sasakibe's Bankai removed? The reference showed Byakuya clearly saying that Sasakibe used his Bankai. Plus, the Vandenreich cannot steal a Bankai unless is is activate. Steveo920, 10:00, December 7, 2012
 * It made no sense where you put it. The line said that Chojiro and other members of the 1st division were attacked, to which you appended "despite Chojrio using his Bankai for the first time". People can still be attacked while using Bankai.--


 * In that case, how about I re-write it in a new sentence, talking only about his injuiries, not the other members? Seriously, I'm just trying to help this page without wanting to push any wrong buttons.

Steveo920, 10:11, December 7, 2012