Talk:Resurrección

Types
I have noticed that there are mainly two different types of ressurecion; one that actually alters the users body and one that adds "armor" to the users body. is one or the other more powerful than the other?--Ulquiorra Wannabe128 09:58, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Technically a Resurrección is an Arrancar releasing it's seal power so the difference between the two is only visually superficial and the power of the Arrancar is not dependant on it. WhiteStrike 22:50, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Segunda Etapa
I find it interesting that Segunda Etapa is presented like it's a new thing with Ulquiorra when we've seen it before, with Ggio Vega. Of course Ggio was killed before we could see the end results of that second transformation clearly, but he definitely stated himself that it was a second form of his Resurreción. It just seems a little odd to me that it's been completely overlooked. Does nobody else think it could be in any way related to Segunda Etapa or was it just some kind of quirk of his Resurreción? --Nisshoku 07:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

It seems, more then being a Second release its more like Cirucci's ability to alter her abilities, Ggio sems to just be swelling his own body, perhaps he restrains himself as to keep his speed...Arieus 07:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

True, that could be a possibility, although Cirucci never went as far as having actually named her "alternate" abilities or whatever you might want to refer to them as. "Tigre Estoque El Sable" seems presented as an entirely new form, although thinking about it now, the way it is introduced does make it seem more like an alternate form than a second stage... hm. It's a shame he was killed so quickly before we could learn much about El Sable. It could just be a one-off... After all, according to Ulquiorra, his Segunda Etapa is a one-off, too... --Nisshoku 21:17, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

He Keeps His Sword
the section that shows the arrancar that keep their swords after their release, Should we include Grand Fisher? Because im pretty sure after he released he still had a sword, correct me if im wrong SkOrEn 23:19, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

He never does release it though...--Espada Speed 00:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Resurrección commands
How do the Arrancar know the release command of their zanpakuto? It's one of those things you don't ask, but want to know. TwinMask 00:26, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Template
is it okay if i put this on the page--Kisukeiscool100396 19:22, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Weapon releases
With the recent chapter, it has been revealed that Barragan wields an axe when Arrogante is released. That makes a total of ""8"" arrancar that have a weapon in their Resurreccion, out of a total of about 30 arrancar that have used Resurrecion (not including fillers). That's nearly a third of all arrancar that wield a weapon after releasing their zanpakuto. I don't think that it is significant enough to be considered a trivia fact any more; it should be deleted from the characters' respective pages. Mohrpheus 14:53, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well it looks like most of arrancar retain weapon in some form after resurrecion. So let have a look which one are their: Nnoitra Jiruga - 5th Espada, Ulquiorra Cifer - 4th Espada, Tia Harribel - 3rd Espada, Barragan Luisenbarn - 2nd Espada, Neliel Tu Oderschvank - former 3rd Espada, Aaroniero Arruruerie - 9th Espada, Mila-Rose - fracción of 3rd Espada and Rudobōn - member of the Exequias. So except for last two everyone is or was Espada level arrancar what makes them most powerfull among their kind. In case of Aaroniero his weapon was in fact Kaien Shiba zanpakuto. And so we have two non-espada with this 'ability'. So when we think about ability to retain weapon after release only strongest arrancar and two medium-strong have it. Of course if Stark retain some weapon after it would show that in most cases it's tied to character power level. Is it triva or fact I hope we'll see soon. --Kazuki Senzo Miyakami 16:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, with Stark and Lilynette's synchronized release, that makes 10 resurrecion in which arrancar retain some type of weapon. More and more, its becoming less unusual for an arrancar release. Mohrpheus 00:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

If it is Stark that also have his weapons after release maybe we should change triva about that to somethink like that: Only most powerfull arrancar gain ability to retain some kind of weapon after their ressurection. But there is also two exception to this: Mila-Rose and Rudobōn. --Kazuki Senzo Miyakami 21:47, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Where?
"Arrancar normally only return to their human form when they reseal their Hollow powers; doing so without resealing, though possible, is a permanent change comparable to amputating a limb." Where is this said/demonstrated in the anime/manga? I keep racking my mind, but I can't recall where it's said that if an Arrancar returns to their human form without resealing, it's a permanent change. Twocents 20:00, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * it was that thunderwitch character the quincy fights after the split up (she says it when discarding her arms and wings)


 * Ah, I didn't find her very interesting, which is probably why I forgot. Thank you for telling me where I can find it. Twocents 04:06, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

You know what I don't get?
That, if Resurreción is defined in Japanese as (帰刃（レスレクシオン), resurekushion; Spanish for "Resurrection", Japanese for "Returning Blade")...

Why does the kanji characters literally translate to 'Blade attributable'?

Take a look at this; 刀剣解放第二階層. The Romaji translation gives it as; touken kaihou daini kaisou; which means either 'Second tier sword's liberation' or, individually, 'Sword release second class (level, stratum, layer, hierarchy)'. Yup, that's the Japanese definition of Resurreción Segunda Etapa.

My question now is; was the characters for Resurreción THAT different? Because, for simplicity's sake, I'd like to submit this; 刀剣解放, or touken kaihou (Sword release), as the official Japanese meaning of regular Resurreción.

Resurrección translations.
The Japanese Kanji for Ulquiorra's second Resurrección, as well as Tousen's Resurrección, both translate as "Swords Release" rather than "Returning Blade" in the case of the usual Resurrección. Meaning there is a difference.

This info should be on both the Resurrección and Tousen Pages. It's on Uquiorra's page, but it isn't pointed out clear enough.

Go check the RAW manga pages yourself. This is not speculation. You seem to be to lazy to check yourself so why are you assuming I don't check my facts?

帰刃 - return blade

レスレクシオン - Resurrección

刀剣解放第二階層 - sword release second level

レスレクシオン・セグンダ・エターパ - Resurrección Segunda Etapa

刀剣解放 - sword release

レスレクシオン - Resurrección

Retrieved from "http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Salubri" Tari101190 20:58, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Tari is correct, as I also noted in one of my posts to Minato yesterday. An excerpt:

It's also worth noting that whereas most times, Resurrección (帰刃 (レスレクシオン) Resurekushion) has the underlying kanji "return blade," when Tousen says "Resurrección" in this ch. 385, the underlying kanji are "sword release" (刀剣解放 (レスレクシオン))--exactly as they were in the underlying kanji of Ulquiorra's Resurrección (Segunda Etapa)!

For the full post and details: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Minato88#You_said_you_were_confused_about_Tousen.27s_Resurrecion.3F

As Tari and I pointed out, the normal underlying kanji of Resurrección is changed from "return blade" to "sword release" when used for Ulquiorra's Resurrección Segunda Etapa and Tousen's special hybrid/"Visored" Resurrección. Not sure how you'd want to note this in the actual "Resurrección" article itself, but it is interesting, and so probably worth some explanation in that article.

As for being "lazy," Tari, I doubt it's the case. Some don't have access to the necessary linguistic resources or data/guide web sites, and even if they do, they may fall victim to mistakes or misinformation some of the less-accurate of such resources abound in--especially if they lack the background in Japanese to be able to tell what's correct. I sometimes have trouble finding raws, as many of them must be acquired through the hassle of downloads and perusal of hundreds of pages of manga (since tankoubon and other arrangements can affect page # etc.). We that can, or have an easier time with it, do because we can, even if parts of the quest can be taxing. Adam Restling 06:42, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Adam, this is significant enough that it should be noted in the trivia section. What it means if anything is anyone guess, but more or less the meaning of resurreccion may have changed for all we know. Whats interesting to note is that japanese writing uses kanji which are ideographs from chinese characters. While they are both different in the word resurreccion as you have noted the katakana is still the same for both. Weird even though i already know kanji signifys nouns, adjectives, verbs and japanese names while katakana is just used for syllables and foreign names and words as well as animals, plants and what have you. Salubri (Talk)  06:53, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Grillar Grillo
How can Kaname Tosen do a Resurreccion? If he could, then why isn't it on the list? superlogan7437 23:14, December 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Good point. I'll add it to the list. For right now we have speculated that all Hybrids(Vizards) can preform Resurreccion, but until we have more proof we can't add that to the articles. Minato  (Talk)  23:58, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Kaname Tosen's Resurreccion
The spanish translation for Grillar Grillo means "coruscating cricket," so why is it that it says "Bell Cricket, Hundred Style." 月光ヒレ 02:09, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

See Talk:Kaname_Tōsen. Twocents  (Talk)  02:11, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Just one quick addendum: the underlying kanji of Grillar Grillo in the present article were accidentally placed in the column for "release command" together with Suzumushi Hyakushiki. The way it should be is:

column: Release command

Suzumushi Hundred-Style (清虫百式 Suzumushi Hyakushiki)

column: Resurrección

Grillar Grillo (狂枷蟋蟀 (グリジャル・グリージョ) Gurijaru Gurījo)

column: Spanish for

"Chirping Cricket"

column: Japanese for

"Crazed-shackle Cricket"

In the above, you may translate Suzumushi as Bell Cricket, or keep it as Suzumushi (since it's his Zanpakutou's name). Lemme know what you choose. For more details (if wanted), still check here: http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Minato88#You_said_you_were_confused_about_Tousen.27s_Resurrecion.3F

Of course, we have no idea if Suzumushi Hyakushiki is the release call, or if it's just the preface to the release's actual name. Tousen has always been an odd bird like this. For example, you'd think Suzumushi's release call to Shikai was "chime" (nake), but that seemed less like a release and more like the command to send out that hypersonic wave that knocked out Ishida. And then he says "Suzumushi Nishiki: Benihikou" to perform one move, and then "Suzumushi Tsuishiki: Enma Koorogi" to release his Bankai. But, until we get better data, it's probably safe to keep calling "Suzumushi Hyakushiki" the (de facto) release command. Adam Restling 07:02, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Can't we all assume that Tosen's release command for his Resurreccion is the exact same for his Shikai: Cry' (鳴け, nake). superlogan7437 23:35, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

We can't really assume that since he has only said "Suzumushi Hyakushiki-- Grillar Grillo". He did not necessarily command for the release, he immediately released it. "Suzumushi Hyakushiki, Grillar Grillo" is the name of the release, but no part of it is the actual command. --Gold3263301 00:52, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

In my own personal opinion, I don't think the release command should be Suzumushi Hyakushiki. If you think about it, it is very irregular for a release command to be a noun (which Suzumushi Hyakushiki is one). It might be an exception, but I wouldn't state the release command to be "Suzumushi Hyakushiki" just yet unless it is absolutely made sure that it is an exception due to "special" conditions. --Gold3263301 00:59, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * It doesn't matter what we think guys. Whether we like it or not, or whether its sounds right or not doesn't matter. He used "Suzumushi Hyakushiki" as his release command. Noun, Verb, Adjective, it doesn't matter. Kanames commands and fighting abilities have been weird ever since his fight with Kenpachi. Anyway, until we have reason to believe otherwise, "Suzumushi Kyakushiki" remains his release command. Minato  (Talk)  01:10, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

The Reference
Sorry Minato, I'm probably reading the manga at a different website than yours. That's probably why we got the page numbers mixed up. --Gold3263301 04:05, December 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * R u using Bleach Exile. If u r then the first page is not from the Manga. It is a note from Exile.Com. So u have to subtract the first page. Which makes pg 19, pg 18. Its an easy mistake to make. Minato  (Talk)  04:08, December 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yep, I'm using Bleach Exile. I'll keep that in mind. Thanks. --Gold3263301 04:11, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Trivia
it's said that tosen is the only shinigami to have a ressureccion is that right? ichigo had that weird second hollow form and aizen clearaly used the hougyoku in gin and himself. Shiny-gami 19:42, December 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Firstly, it says Tosen is the only known Shinigami-Hollow Hybrid capable of using a Resurreccion. Second, we don't kno if Ichigos form was a Resurreccion and Ulquiorra, Uryu, and Orihime never said it was. Anyone who says it was is speculating. Minato  (Talk)  19:50, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Aren't Arrancar technically Shinigami-Hollow hybrids, too? The way I see it, it should say "the only known non-Arrancar Shinigami-Hollow hybrid" (Vizard/Visored is more of a distinct group/faction name than a species name, as of yet). MarqFJA 14:13, December 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Firstly, the order of hollow-shinigami and shinigami-hollow are not interchangeable. hollow-shinigami implies that the soul was hollow to begin with. shinigami-hollow implies that the soul was shinigami to begin with. Secondly, it doesn't work like that Arrancars are no more of a hybrid then the vizards are. The vizards are shinigami who have undergone hollowfication. Arrancar are hollows that have undergone shinigamification. Neither are any more of a hybrid then the other and there is still a huge difference between them. Vizards have masks but they don't have resurrecsions. Arrancar have zanpakuto but their zanpakuto can't perform shikai and bankai and don't get spirits. Tosen is something else entirely. Assuming that his zanpakuto still retained the ability to do shikai and bankai, his zanpakuto also gained the ability to of resureccion. This is very different from the other groups and closest to a true "hybrid" we have seen. So no, it's not the same thing. Tinni   (Talk)  14:19, December 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I just wanted to be sure. I never saw the distinction between "Shinigami-Hollow" and "Hollow-Shinigami" being made anywhere before, though. Is that a new thing? MarqFJA 16:05, December 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * No it's not a new thing. Tinni   (Talk)  16:15, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Aizen and Gin haven't even displayed hollow masks for crying out loud! For all we know, Tosen was also an experiment and Aizen wanted to see how he performed before he tried it on himself and Gin. We have no idea what Ichigo's second hollow form is. We can speculation but that's what all this is, pure speculation. Therefore, keep it confined to the forums. Until and unless we learn more. Aizen, Gin and Ichigo do no have ressureccions. Indeed, until we are informed otherwise by Kubo, Aizen and Gin are not vizards and are still just pure shinigami. Tinni  (Talk)  19:52, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Call it momentary lapse of judgement on my part. But that trivia has now been removed as it is clearly junk. So this is all a none issue. Tinni  (Talk)  14:14, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

Tosen's release command
On Tosen's page, it has been deliberated that "Suzumushi Hyakushiki" is not a release command, but rather a title for for "Grillar Grillo," just as "Suzumushi Nishiki" is the title for "Benihiko." It was hence decided with admin approvoal that Tosen's Resurreccion has no release command, contradicting an consensus that was made on this page. To reflect this, I am changing the command box to say "None." If anybody happens to disagree, please say so here. Mohrpheus 17:41, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

The consensus was made without taking into account his previous releases which released in similar ways, until that can be confirmed the same cant be said here there was to many words used in the previous releases. To accurately determine. Salubri (Talk)  18:09, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Junk Trivia Clean-up
This probably has more to do with how little attention I pay to arrancars in general that I didn't pick-up on it when the Tosen trivia was being discussed. However, now that I have actually read the trivia, I must point out that all of them fall under the category of junk. Being largely of the format "one of" type trivia that we don't allow anywhere else. Therefore, I don't see why this article should be different. Tinni  (Talk)  14:12, December 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * The only known Arrancar with a second Resurrección is Ulquiorra Cifer.

We determined that this "only of something" type trivia was junk. Besides as I have pointed out many times, this trivia is not significant until Bleach ends. If Bleach ends with only Ulquiorra showing a second state then yes this becomes signification. Otherwise, no.


 * While most release commands are either one or two words, the release command of Findor Carias is almost a whole sentence, making it the longest release command for an Arrancar so far in the manga and anime.

Obvious from table.


 * So far, almost every Arrancar who used Resurrección has taken the shape of, or been named after, an animal.

Junk.


 * Both Aaroniero Arruruerie's and Mila-Rose's release commands translate as Devour.

Yes but they are different in Japanese and again obvious from the table.


 * Almost all Resurrección names are Spanish words. The only exception to this is Gantenbainne Mosqueda's Dragra.

Of limited appeal.


 * Pesche Guatiche and Arturo Plateado are the only Arrancar who have revealed their Zanpakutō's name, but not actually released it.

Junk being the "only" type trivia.


 * Gantenbainne Mosqueda is the only Arrancar to activate his Resurrección without revealing his release command.

Obvious from the table.


 * Kaname Tōsen is the only known Shinigami-Hollow hybrid capable of using Resurrección.

Obvious from the table.

If you disagree with the trivia being labelled junk, please explain why but do not add without explanation. Tinni  (Talk)  14:12, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

Weapon Releases, V.2
It has been several months since I first brought up the issue of Arrancar weapon releases. The beginning of this article contains a rather large list, consisting of the Arrancar that have some type of weapon in their released form. Since my previous objection to this, the trivia statements on each of those characters' articles regarding this have all been deleted as "junk trivia." This reflects the general consensus that it is not unusual to have a weapon after releasing one's Resurreccion. At no point in the series has it ever been said to be unusual to have a weapon after releasing it. With this in mind, I believe that the entire list should be deleted, replaced with the simple statement that some Arrancar possess weapons after releasing their zanpakuto. Mohrpheus 20:21, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me that the conclusion of the first discussion was that the weapons release thing was an unnecessary waste of space. So go and head and remove them. I don't think anyone will care. Tinni  (Talk)  20:41, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

Baraggan, Findor Carias, Ggio Vega and Poww's Resurreccións, (possible) mistakes
1. "滅亡の斧" does not translate into "Downfallen Axe"; rather, it translates into "Axe of Extinction". It both makes more sense than the original "translation" and fits with his Grim Reaper theme.

2. The pronunciations Pinzagūda and Tiguresutōku makes me think that the intended Roman-letter spelling is Pinzaguda and Tigrestoque, not Pinza Aguda and Tigre Estoque, since that last ones should logically be pronounced Pinza Agūda and Tiguru Esutōku.

3. The kanji gloss given for Calderón, 巨腕鯨, literally translate to giant (巨), arm (腕) and whale (鯨), respectively, so I'd say that the entire kanji name is supposed to mean "Giant Armed Whale", or "Armed Giant Whale"/"Gigantic Armed Whale" (to avoid confusion with "Giant-Armed Whale"). If "Giant Whale's Arms" was the intended meaning, then it should've been 巨鯨腕, not 巨腕鯨. MarqFJA 02:16, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Pinza Aguda and Tigre Estoque are alright the way they are. Remember that Arrancar Resurreccions are based off on Spanish words, in this case Sharp Pincer and Tiger Rapier respectively, whereas your suggested Pinzaguda and Tigrestoque are not spanish words. Romanization is a complicated matter, if we went directly with the Katakana, Szayel's name would be Zaeruapolo instead of Szayel Aporro. There are different ways of interpreting Katakana and Hiragana, depending on the context and the mangaka, you shouldn't really take the kana's so literally. Lia Schiffer 03:03, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

I know all that. But I was thinking that maybe Kubo put the pronunciations that way to give us a hint that the names are supposed to be portmanteaux (in the Resurreccion's case) / composite names (in Szayel's case, i.e. "Szayel-Apporo", kinda like many French and Spanish given names). MarqFJA 03:15, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

It's difficult to say, but for those specific Resurreccions, their names are said in two parts in the anime. The idea of Kubo using portmanteaux is interesting, and it is quite a coincidence that the only two Zanpakuto that follow that contain two words (pronouns excluded) follow that pattern. Unlike Arrancar names, Kubo's never spelled out a Resurreccion's name in plain English, so it's hard to say. Mohrpheus 01:19, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

Update: added Barragan's Gran Caida.

I have those two parts, and the pronunciation used supports my arugment. I think that's enough justification to alter the spelling for now, until an official one is actually given; don't you think?

And is it just me, or is everyone pointedly ignoring the part about Calderón? MarqFJA 21:25, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand your point on Gran Caida. Are you arguing pronunciation or meaning? And I didn't touch your point about Calderón because I'm not well-versed in Kanji interpretation, so there was nothing I could add onto that, I just went fair straight to Pinza Aguda and Tigre Estoque, and again I'm strongly sure that they're meant to stay as separate words. It wouldn't be the first time a zanpakuto has long name, take Katen Kyokotsu or Sogyo no Kotowari. And many Arrancar attacks and techniques have long names, take Lanzador Verde, Ola Azul, Cero Oscuras, Lanza del Relámpago, to name a few. I'm a natural Spanish speaker, let's leave the Spanish words the way they are instead of trying to tweak them based on Romanization that has proved to be tricky more than once. That's my opinion on the matter. Lia Schiffer 03:28, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

I fail to see how my point on Gran Caida concerns its pronunciation when it's revolving completely around the kanji. And you could just consult Wiktionary or any available online Japanese translator; I recommend Tangorin.com, which also has a dedicated forum.

On another note, while I wouldn't argue about your examples, there's a simple fact that you're missing (aside from the other fact that none of their pronunciations even suggest that they are intended to be portmanteaux): In virtually all Hollow/Arrancar ability/Zanpakutou multiple-word names, whenever the words are supposed to be separate, there's an interpunct (・) that separates the relevant kana. The only exceptions to that involve definite articles in the beginning of the name, such as Los Lobos and Del Toro, which Tite Kubo seems to have decided to treat as part of the word they are affixed to (personally, I think that's a plausible approach). Pinzagūda and Tiguresutōku do not have interpuncts separating any of their kana, in addition to the whole pronunciation thing. MarqFJA 11:24, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Gran Caida is more contentious, as the genitive particle no is also used extensively to form adjectives from nouns (cf. the discussion on Sode no Shirayuki). Thus, while more *literally* "axe of downfall/ruin", the kanji can also mean "downfall(en)/ruin(ed) (adj.) axe (noun)," and there's no way save from Kubo we can confirm exactly which was meant. 滅 metsu can stand for either "ruin, fell (something)" or passive "be ruined, fall down, a downfall"; 滅亡 metsubou means "downfall, ruin," and seems generally to be passive "a being ruined/felled."

The kanji of Calderón as "giant-armed whale" is correct, based on their order you cited.

Though Tigre~ should be Japanese Tigure, you're right that Kubo goofs these (e.g. Cero Doble  where it should be Japanese Dobure but Kubo writes Doburu). His lack of an interpunct in these is odd, because as was said above, it *should* really be Pinza Aguda and Tigre Estoque, and Kubo usually saves his "portmanteaux" for the wacky Hollow names. Difficult to tell. I would elect to keep them as is, just as I would to keep the spelling of Arturo Plateado's sword, even though Kubo wrote it as though it were Spanish Feniche. Besides, I don't think there are words like *Guda and *Stoque existing in real Spanish, so if we smashed the renderings together as *Pinzaguda and Tigrestoque, we'd have produced nonsensical pseudo-words while, again, Kubo mainly sticks to real (if sometimes misspelled) Spanish--at least for Hollow swords and techniques. Adam Restling 10:15, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the context allows for the kanji to mean Downfallen/Ruined Axe; I mean, the axe itself doesn't look decreipt or something, right? And 滅亡 metsubou does mean "extinction" in addition to "downfall, ruin, destruction". Aren't we supposed to go with the choice that is most plausible/sensible in the absence of other evidence?

Re. Doble: Wow, I never knew that. This puts things in a slightly new perspective.

Re. Arturo Plateado: Is Feniche even a word? Boy, either Kubo's taking a little too much artistic license or he has worse knowledge of Spanish than I thought. BTW, how did you guys come to conclusion that it should be spelled Fénix? MarqFJA 11:53, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Well, Baraggan's release call is "rot" (intransitive), i.e. not "rot something," but commanding one to "rot" itself. And he turns into a desiccated skeleton. So I think "downfallen/ruined axe" is more appropriate, because it epitomizes Baraggan and his weapon as the great specter of the ruin that looks like has struck him (his own decayed-looking body) and which will then be spread (Respira, anyone?) upon his foes like a pestilence: they will join him in "ruin." Metsubou is not glossed "extinction" with any currency; "extinction" is usually glossed for danzetsu, haizetsu, shoutou, inmetsu or zetsumetsu--though the last two indeed include metsu, the compound metsubou ([be] destroy[ed]-die) itself is usually used of something's disastrous collapse or ruin (intransitive/passive), as I said earlier.

Fenic(h)e does not seem to be a real Spanish word. They chose Fénix "phoenix" on this site and Wikipedia because of a) the underlying kanji 不滅王 "undying/indestructible king" (the phoenix is immortal by resurrecting itself--and yes, that is 滅 metsu again in 不滅 fumetsu "not-being destroyed"), b) his Resurreccion includes wings (the phoenix was a mythic bird), and c) there is no current Spanish word *Fenic(h)e and so Kubo's phonetic rendering Fenīche was taken as an error.

This last point is of no great controversy, as examples like Doble above show. Compare also Kubo's phonetic rendering of Harribel's technique Cascada. Though based on Spanish cascada, this is pronounced (roughly) "kahs-KAH-dah," whereas Kubo's katakana spelling カスケーダ Kasukēda has apparently blended the pronunciation with the English cognate cascade (roughly "kas-KAYD"), with the -kē- part sounding almost like "kay," not Spanish "kah." Not to mention, say, rendering Spanish Quinto (Espada) as Kuinto when the Spanish word begins not with the sound kw but k--this last also shows Kubo's mixing of Spanish genders (quinto is masculine "fifth" while espada "sword" is classed a feminine noun). Adam Restling 03:44, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Just a little word on Fénix/Feniche. Feniche means Phoenix in Italian, but the Italian pronunciation would be roughly Feh-nee-keh (though, just like Nnoitra's Quinto, we know how much Kubo minds pronunciations). So it means the same as Fénix in Spanish. And the words "Guda" and "Stoque" don't really exist in Spanish (that's what I've been trying to say all the way, for the love of Ulqui...) Lia Schiffer 04:05, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense. And again, while we know Kubo massively distorts and stylizes real words/names to produce the exotic, single-language-transcending names of his Hollows and Arrancar, he sticks to real Spanish (mispronounced/misgendered though it may be) for their techniques and stuff, so it wouldn't make sense for him to suddenly, say, go Italiano on a word or two. The lack of interpuncts and mashing-together of the words is odd. My best explanation is that Kubo tried to "cheat," since the first words of each technique name end in the same vowel that the second words begin with: thus Pinza Aguda gets "shorthanded" > Pinsagūda instead of Pinsa・Agūda, and Tigre Estoque likewise > Tigurestōku instead of Tigure・Esutōku--note, of course, that the rendering of -que as katakana -ku here is another mistake, as the closer-to-Spanish rendering would be -ke. Adam Restling 05:08, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

I keep getting "extinction" as a possible translation for either "滅亡" or "metsubou" whenever I google them; maybe it's figurative. In any case, if Downfallen was actually referring to Baraggan, then it could've made sense, but it refers to the weapon that he uses in his Resurreccion form. MarqFJA 10:40, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Then mayhaps the more ostensible meaning of no--the genitive rather than the adjectival--is best, sic. "Axe of Ruin/Downfall." After all, Gran Caida's purpose against enemies, especially in line with Baraggan's theme of decay, is to "fell" his foes, even as Respira is to rot and "ruin" them. In light of these considerations, I would recommend the translation "Axe of Ruin." And that's odd, Marq: the first hit I got when I googled metsubou indeed gives it as "downfall, ruin," as does my usual, trustworthy Japanese-English online translator and my copy of Nelson's The Modern Reader's Japanese-English Character Dictionary. I don't know why you keep getting "extinction/destruction" as the sense with primacy, rather than as a secondary, broader sense. But, then, I suppose any word with a meaning having to do with "destruction" could be construed to have this broader sense or that narrower sense without much ado. However, really, the general usage of metsubou is for specifically "downfall, ruin," with other words (cf. my list above) being used, similarly specifically, for "extinction." Adam Restling 04:38, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Axe of Ruin' it is, then. Now, do we have to wait for a mod to second this suggestion, or what? MarqFJA 07:17, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Not usually; you two know a lot more about this than the rest of us, so imo I think we can trust you to do things like this without our say-so.TomServo101 11:25, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Murcielago's release command, alternate interpetation
While "鎖す" (tozasu) does translate literally as "bind", I recently found another possible meaning for it, via the synonymous and homophonous 閉ざす (tozasu) (source: Tangorin.com, and confirmed by Google search results). While the latter also has the same literal meaning, it also acts as an Japanese idiomatic phrase meaning "(to) plunge (in grief)".

I always thought it was odd that Ulquiorra's release command seemingly did not have even a remote relevance to his zanpakutou's name, its powers or himself. In light of the above, however, it all becomes more sensible: The reveal of his Resurreccions "true" form, the Segunda Etapa, is preceded by him saying that he'll show Ichigo "true despair'" - essentially "plunging" Ichigo into "grief" as he realizes the hopelessness of opposing Ulquiorra. MarqFJA 22:05, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

Ulquiorra's release command was matter for discussion since it first came out in the manga, since the verb Tozasu can be translated as "to close, to lock, to enchain", and the Cnet translation was actually Enchain, but I'm not really sure as to why we kept Bind as the official translation, check Ulquiorra's discussion page. But the one you're proposing uses a different writing than the one used by Tite Kubo, and since this is so far a written manga and not a spoken anime, the fact that they're homophones is not really relevant, but the writing is very different, so I doubt that's what Kubo intended to be the release command. Lia Schiffer 03:46, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't have bothered if it was only a homophone, but it is both that and a synonym. Everywhere I checked, the two kanji's verb forms have the same pronunciation and the same meaning of "bind, enchain, shackle". This reminded me of how some kanji burrowed pronunciations and/or meanings from others, and makes me suspect that we are faced with a similar case. It may be that Kubo decided to use a less common kanji for the verb instead of the usual one. MarqFJA 10:36, March 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * We will only use what Kubo wrote, no matter how odd it may seem to anyone. Since he wrote 鎖せ (this article and his character article give the kanji as 鎖せ, not 鎖す as you say above), we will use that and its translation. Nothing else. And as to the oddness of the word, Ulquiorra says something about sealing away Ichigo's life just before boring a hole through his chest . -- Yyp (Talk) 10:51, March 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Like Adam says in the post below, 鎖せ is the imperative form of 鎖す, so I'm still using what Kubo wrote. What is at issue here is the intended meaning. I don't see what "sealing" has to do with "binding", or how Ulquiorra's comment is relevant to the release command. All he did was use a Cero Oscuras; at least Zommari's Amor "suppressed" his enemies' control of their body parts, and Szayel's "sip" command easily pertain to the rather disturbing way he releases his zanpakutou. MarqFJA 12:51, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, when read tozasu, these are interchangeable. If it were up to me, I would translate it "enclose" because--though no single word can cover both the ostensible meaning "close, shut" and "plunge (someone) in grief," I think "enclose" comes closest to the original and the figurative (i.e. grief/despair enveloping someone, suffocating them, as might the black wings of the devil ;) ). But, for the above reasons, I wouldn't just use "envelop" as that's too far from "close, shut," etc. So I would do tozasu (imperative form tozase) as "enclose." Adam Restling 11:19, March 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Exactly. Translating it as enclose does work too. MarqFJA 12:51, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

The imperative inflection of Japanese verbs
Since I see some confusion lingering on these, I thought a (*hopefully*) quick guide on them could help. I plan to put a copy of this post in the other place where the imperative conjugation is involved, the Zanpakutou talk page.

As in many other languages, Japanese verbs inflect to reflect mood, tense etc. The moods that concern us most with both Shinigami and Arrancar Zanpakutou release calls are the indicative and the imperative.

Most Zanpakutou release calls are in the imperative mood: the wielder is commanding the Zanpakutou to manifest in its normal, unsealed form with the call. The form the inflection takes also depends upon what kind of verb it is: consonant-stem, vowel-stem, or irregular.

Though the only consonant Japanese words can end with in modern times is n, the verbal stem, being a stem and not a true, full word, is analyzed as ending in a consonant before it receives the appropriate suffix. Please note also that some consonant-stems are hard to tell from identical looking vowel-stems--e.g. some verbs ending in -ru are the former, some the latter--and these should be looked up individually. Also, some verbs which ostensibly end in a vowel, such as iu "say, speak," are classed as consonant-stems, with the consonant manifesting as a w < u in derived forms, such as the negative i w anai "not say/speak" (stem iw- + negative consonant-stem verbal suffix -anai).

For consonant-stem verbs, the imperative is formed by adding -e to the stem

ex: Ulquiorra's tozase, imperative of tozasu (stem tozas-) "enclose, close, shut"

For vowel-stem verbs, the imperative is forming by adding -ro to the stem

ex. Yammy's buchikirero, imperative of buchikireru (stem buchikire-) (colloquial) "be(come) enraged, flip out, fly off the handle, lose it (one's temper)"

For irregular verbs the forms are, as the name suggests, irregular:

kuru "come" forms its imperative in koi; its stem, though, is usually ki-

suru "do" (also used to make nouns, especially foreign-derived nouns, into verbs, e.g. aisuru "love" [verb] < ai "love" [noun]) forms its imperative as either shiro or seyo (cf. the release call of Tatsufusa Enjouji's Houzan, ranbu seyo "dance madly" [ran "wild, mad, crazed" + bu dance + seyo]); its stem is usually shi-

Please note also that Japanese, being the language of a society in which social class and formal mien is deeply engrained, also has many levels of usage for words, including verbs, depending upon whether one is amongst friends in a casual environment, or with a superior etc. (cf. how in English, you probably wouldn't call the big boss "dude!" XD). In Japanese, thus, usage of the plain forms of words is considered informal and, especially, the plain imperative or command forms are considered quite rude--commands in a society that so-values politeness are unsurprisingly prickly. However, most/all the Zanpakutou release calls we have so far are in the plain imperative (or indicative) forms. Perhaps a subtle nod to the informal and intimate relationship one shares with its wielder (at least for Shinigami)... ?

At any rate, it's those plain forms I've discussed above. If you've any questions, please let me know either here, or in replies to this very topic section. Adam Restling 11:03, March 27, 2010 (UTC)