Forum:Ichigo's new form (non-wikia talk)

Man, I'm positive that nobody saw this coming. I mean, last week, I was pretty sure Hollow Ichigo was going to make due on his threat to appear if Ichigo was almost killed again (and he still might have), but I'm surprised, to say the least, that Ichigo actually attained a new form. I wonder though... is he in control, is Hollow Ichigo in control, or is he currently in a mindless state? Arrancar109 18:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to say. Since he wanted to protect Orihime so bad, instead of just wanting to win, he might have some control since he didn't go after the nearest person, which was her. Though with his apparent inability to communicate, this opposes such a theory

I gave my whole two cents on the entire new form in the Ichigo talk page. Kaihedgie 18:22, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll say this I think its the effect of Hueco Mundo. I mean ever since Chad got there his powers which are more related to a hollows powers have been acting funny and then all of the sudden he's more developed then normal. Ichigo seems like he experiencing something similar. Its hard to gauge what has happened here but best i can make out is this. Over 110 years ago when Aizen was carrying out his experiments and hollowfication first took place in the Vizards, something unique happened and you can see what is happening to Ichigo somewhat the same. Prime example Kensei's transformation was not really that of a actual hollow but like a hollow/shinigami hyprid (with the shinigami being more of a dominant trait because thats what he originally is). In this form kensei was still for all purposes himself but with his appearance taking on hollow characteristics, most notably the mask. Now when you see the current vizards you note them donning the masks. Which allows them access to hollow powers and advances their already considerable power. Without the mask they seem as normal shinigami. It took them fighting their inner hollow for control over their body and powers. But the question then is what happened to that form taken by Kensei originally. Now ichigo is unique in the fact that one he attained hollow powers differently and two he is technically still human though he has gained shinigami powers. What we do know is that the hollow tried to take over and ichigo needed to defeat it as the vizards had done with theirs or it would control him and he would be no more then a hollow. Thats the only way for him to gain control and access to his hollow abilities by use of the mask. The biggest problem for ichigo is he left before shinji could properly train him. It appears he hasnt truly won the war with his inner hollow he has only won a battle. What we also know is that transformation that took place when the vizards fought him when he was fighting his inner hollow. The best guess i can come up with is, that form was a direct result of his inner struggle when he had the upper hand he was fine but when his inner hollow strated beating him you can see the inner struggle turning more on the inner hollows side because the full hollow manifested itself physically. Now this new form seems on par with a shinigami/hollow hybrid as shown when kensei was transformed. It seems to have ichigo's body with hollow characteristics blended in (unlike the previous form this form seems to have a hollow mask but more advanced version then what he had). It seems just as brutal and savage as kensei was, so best guess is this form like kensei's is somewhat the 2nd release if you will of a vizard. The mask gives them access to hollow powers and then after that a second release of some form allows them this form. Salubri 18:27, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Remember after Grimmjow almost killed him during the arrancar arc, Ichigo sustained injuries that contained the Espada'a reiatsu; That is why Hachigen told Rukia to take him elsewhere as they too had reiatsu similar to hollows, and for some reason this could effect him negatively. Later on after Ulquiorra almost killed him Orihime expressed difficulty in healing the wound in his chest because it also had Ulquiorra's powerful reiatsu. Now Ichigo was impaled in the chest in the same manner by the same person, only Ulquiorra was using Segunda Etapa- Ishida compared his reiatsu to an ocean in the sky, so if he was that powerful I think his injury to Ichigo caused so much damage that he's transformed completely into a hollow. Notice his hollow hole did not regenerate like before. Then there is the matter of control: This new Ichigo is different, but he exhibits neither the conscience, reasoning and emotions of Ichigo, nor the malice, blood lust and insanity of Hollow Ichigo. Don't forget the chapter also seemed like when Ichigo was talking to himself, someone, perhaps Zangetsu or Hollw Ichigo, answered back. (Shes calling me.) "Stand Up." (I...)"Stand Up." Regardless of the explanation, the fact is right now in this transformation Ichigo looks like, and definitely has the power of a Vasto Lorde.--Renji Abarai 06:17, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

I still cant figure how everyone goes off in the tangent of hollows and their evolution. I dont care how much hollow abilities he has ichigo is not a hollow. Why is that the first place everyone goes, he must be a hollow cause he transfomed into one once, or he must be a hollow cause he has one in his consciousness. Lets not forget he is not the only one in ther stroyline that has hollow abilities. Whose to say the vizards cant shed light on what is currently happening, its amazing how ichigo so special he totally trumps everything we know so far because its happening to him. Arrancar are subject to hollow evolution and most likely are taken out of the equation when they become arrancar. we have seen him fight all of one manga panel and all the sudden everyone knows the internal process of what his personality is. Its interesting to note that the current transformation only attacks ulquiorra. The biggest issue i think ive had with this new transformation is how everyone immediately goes to, oh he has horns hes a vasta lorde. I can see theres alot of hollows and some arrancar with horns it doesnt make them vaste lorde no matter how much you wish. Lets be honest none of use really know what a vaste lorde looks like, we have only seen the outline of their shape. We also have no real idea of a vaste lordes power. All we know about them is that they are the pinnacle of hollow evolution. There arent many of them. They are more powerful then a single captain of the gotei 13 and that 10 of them could destroy soul society. Other then that we dont know their power level, what they look like or even if they are all the same in appearance or power. What i do know is ichigo isnt even a hollow and regardless of his power the inner hollow or the transformation doesnt warrant him being called anything without proof to that effect. I think we far to often get caught up in how powerful we assume ulquiorra to be, lets not forget ichigo isnt really all that powerful take into account the winning by the skin of his teeth in most battles. He is getting there, but using him to gauge the powers of others probably isnt the best idea cause in truth we dont really know how powerful the heavy hitters really are. Salubri 06:37, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Salubri. Ichigo is not Vasto Lorde since all we know about them is that is the final evolution of Hollows. To become a Vasto Lorde one must have consumed the powers of other Hollows like we saw in Grimmjow's back-story, in facgt I don't think that any of the Espada are former Vasto Lorde since in Nel's Hystory we saw that her mission was to seek out Vasto Lorde meaning she wasn't one and the fact that instead of getting demoted Nnoitra was promoted from 8 to 5 really rules out there being Vasto Lorde in the Espada. The way I see it is if mor powerful guys joined in the the ones at the top would get push back and Nnoitra would have been kick out of the Espada. Now in Ichigo's case it may just be the power of Hueco Mundo affecting his last transformation into a new one just like Chad's power. All in all we'll have to wait on the next chapter maybe even more to really get a view of what Ichigo is now. WhiteStrike 07:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I never believed the possibility he would become a hollow until this last chapter, but the only reason I think he might have is because of the whole soul chain argument. I never said Ichigo was a Vasto either, but from the silhouette of a Vasto shown being similar he looks like it. The fact that he is (seemingly)easily overpowering a fully resurrected Ulquiorra makes him have the power of a Vasto Lorde-- and the other reason I believe that is because Hitsugaya stated that "a Vasto Lorde is stronger than the (average) captain. Ulquiorra using Segunda Etapa is the most powerful transformation seen yet as far as reiatsu level, which makes him above the average captain, and this new Ichigo is above that. But like WhiteStrike said we have to wait for Tite Kubo to tell us what's what. The main thing I want is this transformation to not be Hollow Ichigo taking control, since for some reason even at the very beginning of the fight everyone kept saying how if he takes over then he'll definitely win and this and that. The story's about Ichigo, not his inner hollow, and besides he was defeated once before; I don't want to see Ichigo's inner evil fight his battles for him. I think that this time however he's lending Ichigo his power. --Renji Abarai 17:34, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

This is the issue how can u determine the power of a vasto lorde if you haven't seen a vaste lorde or even know what its capable of. I too know what Hitsuguya said and last i recall Ichigo isn't a captain. Yes ulquiorra has amazingly powerful reitsu, but what information is there to state that its more powerful then a captains. Has anyone seen Yama at full power or aizen or kyoraku, ukitake or for that matter Unohana, Yoruichi or Urahara no, no one hasnt so that makes no sense to state that he is more powerful then anyone but Ichigo, who while very powerful isnt the most powerful person in the series. Salubri 23:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

My point is that a captain level reiatsu would be someone of Toshiro, Renji or Ichigo's caliber. Definitely Kenpachi's at full power. If you recall I never stated Ichigo is the strongest nor did I imply Ulquiorra is: Ulquiorra has the strongest transformation (which is basically anyone using Ressureccion, Hollowfication or Bankai) reiatsu-wise seen thus far. Ikkaku's stronger than a 3rd Seat, Renji's stronger than a lieutenant, and the older captains, along with the exiled one's have become stronger than captains. By captain I mean Captain level. Mayuri's considered captain level but he's not that physically strong whatsoever, and compensates in other areas accordingly. Kenpachi's "captain class" yet has no skill with Kido or Hoho. Not to mention he does not know his zanpakuto's name, which also means he does not know Bankai, something usually necessary for a shinigami to be promoted to captain. You would have to prove that Captains Zaraki, Kurotsuchi and Hitsugaya are not captain level, despite the fact they are captains, in order to argue about "captain level" since all three of them have achieved the level while also revealing their full power. Whether they're average or not is of no concern since I only use facts. Ichigo Kurosaki is not a captain, but you also cannot deny that he's defeated at least one captain, and an Espada that was stronger then some captain class fighters(Madarame, Abarai and arguably Hitsugaya.) Ichigo right now as far as raw spiritual power is at least a smidgen above a mid or low-tier captain! And just to prove I do not think Ichigo is one of the real heavy-hitters: Ichigo is not as powerful as the top three Espada, 4 older captains, the other Vizard or Aizen as of chapter 350.Renji Abarai 06:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok this conversation is getting mad long so ill just say this in closing. 1) I dont see how we can debate the concept of "captain level of reiatsu" considering, that one doesnt become a captain based on that. 2) I agree Ulquiorra has the most powerful transformation from a espada in the 1-4 range so far but we don't know how that is as it relates to anyone else (shinigami, arrancar or vizard) 3.) As far as Ikkaku, Renji or whoever else from the past of course their more powerful then the titles they have or had and the expectations that come with them. Yes those 2 are captain level combatants because they have become masterful in their skills in their own right just as ichigo is. 4.) Mayuri, Zaraki and Hitsuguya's Captaincy isn't under question, everyone has strengths and weaknesses but each one compensates in their own way, each one earns their position. Not everyone has to be Yama or Aizen. 5.) You have such a distaste for hitsuguya cause he so young. By that logic Yama shouldn't be in charge cause he so old. What has been shown that makes him inexperienced or low tier? he is a child prodigy, he is one of a few that knew something wasnt right with the aizen death situation. he has the most powerful ice zanpakuto in soul society, he is the youngest captain ever. he knows his bankai and how to use it with skill, he even entered the gotei 13 on his Rangiku's recommendation and eventually became captain even though she was in her current position way before he became captain. So im not sure where he is a low level captain cause if he wasnt qualified he wouldnt be one. (Intellect and tactics) 6.) Last I checked Zaraki is currently the only captain who has defeated one of the higher espada. with no flash steps, kido, or even knowning his zanpakuto's name. (strength & skill) 7.) Mayuri is a scientist and he doesnt even try in a fight majority of the time cause he already has the opponent beat (strategy & intellect) 8.) To be a captain is more then just immense power, but if those in the position didnt have any great power they wouldnt be in the position and wouldnt be able to keep it. Not every character has to use overwhelming brute force just to be a captain this bleach not dragonball z. 9.) Ichigo only defeated Byakuya and Grimmjaw because of his vizard powers which is a whole different issue. 10.) I dont recall Grimmjow fighting Renji, Ikkaku or Hitsuguya so i dont know that he is more powerful then any of them, just because ichigo beat, and your apparent view is ichigo is more powerful or something to that effect i dont know. 11.) As far as ichigo's power level, we dont know what is, what is known is that its more powerful then Ulquiorra's. But the power estimation scale must be way off cause that's an assumption to assume he is more powerful then any captain, let alone to assume there is some way to rank a captains power against any others. This is power leveling game, ichigo is not the same as when he fought kenpachi just as kenpachi isnt the same, everyones power levels change and increase. There has been no direct statement or anything shown where ichigo's spiritual power is any more powerful then anyone besides who he is currently fighting. There is way to much speculation over what he is and what level of power he is at. When the fact is all that is really known is he is more powerful then they guy that just blew a hole through his chest not but a minute ago. Salubri 08:44, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

OMGoodness I do not believe half of what you just stated! I never looked at it that way as far as power levels, but if that's how it is then we do not know how strong anyone is anymore---wait a minute I never talked about power, only reiatsu! If I talked about Reiryoku & Reiatsu, along with skills and abilities then I'd be talking about power levels. The only reason I brought in reiatsu is because you argued that a Vasto's reiatsu could not be debated, and now you say neither can a captain's. If I say a Lieutenant's level(reiatsu) this argument will just lead in another direction again. It started with me attempting to demonstrate the validity of my 1st statement and ended up very heated with me apparently having a distaste for Toshiro.=( The original point of discussion is: Ichigo's hollow form looks different from his first full hollowfication, and probably has something to do with Hollow Ichigo regardless of whoever is in control. No more debating/arguing on something I did not say. Whenever I said stronger or power(which I only said twice) it related to reiatsu, not how skilled and everything else they are or if they could win in a fight against this person. Renji Abarai 22:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey i was just putting a exact reaction to your comment. Yes there is no gauge to a captains power level, we see what they can do when they fight or someone else observes that power. You put the other characters in a form of reference which i dont know what they exactly relate to cause besides kenpachi neither mayuri or toshiro have used their reiatsu in any fully seen way. And as far as reiatsu what about it, no one knows the full extent of any captains spiritual pressure. We've seen some of them paralyze with a stare, and they weren't even trying. We haven't seem Vaste lorde's and while we know them to be powerful we dont know what their reiatsu level is either. You made a statement about ichigo's form but then it went into a comparison of others spiritual pressure that you really cant gauge cause you havent seen them use them in comparison to another. We have a clear understanding of what ulquiorra's reiatsu is like in his second form. We have a understanding of what Aizen's is like. As well as possibly Gin's and Yamamoto's and even zaraki's. But we dont really know what the effects and levels of anyone else's is. But Renji and Ikkaku arent at that level. Those that are or above dont get a position because of your spiritual pressure which is gauged by the amount of spiritual energy you have. You may have meant reiatsu but you were clearly stating "captain class", im taking that as power level because you cant gauge what you dont know and that aspect of their spiritual ability is only seen seriously by a handful and most we just dont know. Now if your talking about Spiritual energy thats understandable and useable with others as a reference. But you said reiatsu which isnt fully known for all characters and then u went into why everyone was considered "captain class" that powerful because you think spiritual pressure determines the power rather then the amount of spiritual energy that a person has. You are trying to determine some way to find out what ichigo's reiatsu is well no one knows it hasnt been seen, but his spiritual energy is definitely higher then Ulquiorra's currently. Whether its higher then anyone elses just like whether ulquiorra's is higher then any captains is debatable cause we havent truly see a comparison. Salubri 23:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Ichigo's new form
Even though Ichigo is one of the strongest beings in the universe, he has events that only happened to him. Dekoshu talk contrib 23:45, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Kurosaki was also the only person shown so far to simultaneously gain hollow powers with his shinigami powers, on top of being a human in the process. Our best bet is that Hollow Ichigo's aiding or taking over Ichigo right now, but he's probably not a hollow (it is possible.) Renji Abarai 06:20, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, regarding the user's comment, even though I enjoyed overwhelming brute force from both Bleach and Dragon Ball (ALL 3 series; Z & GT), some shinigami didn't become captains through overwhelming brute force. Let's be honest and try not to live in a lie. Just because they have no bearing in other different anime doesn't mean we should exaggerate some human characters from Dragon Ball or any other anime to defeat all of Bleach. Don't give us that completely different universe speech. The Espada and Ichigo's new transformation, Uryu Ishida's Quincy Final Form, Nel Tu, Sosuke Aizen, General Yamamoto, Bount, Shinigami/Soul Reapers, and others, INCLUDING THE YET ACTUALLY SEEN VASTO LORDES, have enough power to beat them, not only some from Dragon Ball, but also dominate some others, like Pokemon. Don't say that is unrealistic, because I know already Goku has enough potential to destroy more than just planets. They were able to go through mountains and other obstacles without getting hurt. When I saw Cero, I honestly believe it had great destructive power. When I saw Ichigo's evolved Full-Hollow transformation in the manga, I seen the vast potential within that young man. Also, Bleach has more capable, fighting girls than Dragon Ball. First of all, Hollow Ichigo is the inner conscience within Ichigo. A Vasto Lorde's power is potentially enormous. We may not see the full powers of the Vizard and Hollows yet, but it'll exceed normal expectations. Dekoshu talk contrib 14:48, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok just to put this to bed ill explain how this is a unnecessary comparison. one we are dealing with spirits here, no one is flying through space, no one is an alien, no one is blowing up planets, no one is making wishes on magical balls. Talking about Dragonball is not in the realm of this show for those reasons. You basically just admitted you know that the show has no bearing on this one but you cant seriously try to be having a conversation oh exaggerating characteristics of other anime against those of bleach. None of us on here are 5 yr old children so why is necessary to act like it by carrying out talks about ridiculous things. Every forum or talk page is about serious discussion on bleach. I personally dont care about goku or his power level considering that bleach does not use those ridiculous power levels. I really dont get it, my opinion if its not a serious discussion about bleach related stuff then it doesnt need to be on here. Its cool your a fan of other stuff, but how does it relate to bleach, if there was no dragon ball or any of the other stuff then what would you be comparing it too? This is exactly the issue with the ichigo power level argument, everyone goes on a totally left field tangent about his power level comparing it to others that he has never fought or even to those we dont even know what they really can do. Already determining what he is before we know it and not using any of the information we know so far. Everyone in bleach has potential, but i was making just making a point in the last comment, a valid one, i cant say the same about putting bleach verse anything, just unnecessary speculation that wont be resolved. Salubri 18:10, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Anyways, the recent chapters for Ichigo's new transformation will continue. And also, I do care. I am not trying to compare. I am telling that you that there's humility and admissions of it. I did regard your comment. This is not Dragon Ball, This is a Bleach Wikia. And the they aren't exaggerating charateristics of other anime. I'm saying that I really enjoyed Bleach, I seen what Shinigami and Hollows can do, and I know you don't have to type all of that, Salubri. You're either expecting too many things from this or you are gravely underestimating the abilities outside of Bleach. Of course I know they're aren't in space and aren't destroying planets, and other stuff that DBZ truly does. In Bleach, there are battles that are strict which MEANS there will be no retreats and escapes. I am not limited to just one anime. I am being serious and realistic. Try not taking me the wrong way, please. I know they don't have those power levels at all, and the power levels aren't ridiculous at all in Dragon Ball. Don't get smart with me either, because I know and I seen it. I never considered everyone who are actually mighty to be ridiculous, because I know they are beyond absurd; they are astounding. I am not speculating anything, because I should know accurately. Remember, you should be less rigid, and focus not just one thing, but also another. Dekoshu talk contrib 20:26, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The skill of a character is not based solely on reiatsu. Besides, as with everything, any particular character may have a strength that matches up to another character's weakness, thus perhaps making it easier for one character to defeat another despite any differences in other areas. Yume-Li 22:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

That is 100% true, Yume-Li. Dekoshu talk contrib 00:32, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Reiatsu or spiritual power are superessential parts of Bleach and ki as well. We should not underestimate Ichigo's new transformation, and the 4th Epsada will lose. Remember, both Ichigo and Goku have enormous power, but in the next chapter, the 4th Espada may be damaged even worse than a ripped arm. Dekoshu talk contrib 00:37, 24 March 2009 (UTC)