Talk:Kaname Tōsen

Automated transfer of Problem Report #12411
The following message was left by Deronnice via PR #12411 on 2008-07-30 08:57:15 UTC

''Kaname Tosen Is a ex captain please add him on the ex captain list at the bottom of page, ty. (dont rly know ho wto do it Lol''

Incorrect?
The article is stated as saying: "As shown in Episode 209, Kaname had his Bankai 101 years ago when he sneak attacked Kensei making him formerly one of the only two Seated Officers to have Bankai, the other is Ikkaku Madarame." Given that a shinigami must be capable of bankai to become a captain, isn't every officer promoted to captain capable of bankai (thus Kisuke Urahara when he takes the Captain Qualification Exam, for example, and with the exception of Kenpachi, of course)? Also, what about Renji? -- El jota 05:48, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I think whoever typed that meant non-captain shinigami. While every captain (aside from Kenpachi Zaraki) can use bankai, just because a shinigami knows it doesn't mean it's a surefire way to pass the captain's proficiency test (hence the reason why Renji is not a captain). There are likely other details to the Captain's test besides just being able to use bankai (though, none are officially known), and the test has to be officially initiated. Renji probably hasn't officially taken the test, which is the reason why he is still Byakuya's lieutenant.Arrancar109 06:01, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * No one knew about Kaname or (definitely) Aizen achieving their Bankai back then, let alone their actions involving the Missing Soul Incident. As for Renji, I just do not know, which is ironic when you look at my name. I'm pretty sure he's not promoted because

or *C: He has not taken the exam.--Renji Abarai 06:06, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
 * A: He sucks at Kido, which is necessary to be a captain, excluding Kenpachi.
 * B: He wishes to surpass his captain, and becoming a captain would make them equals/complicate his training.


 * I'm not sure my point isn't being missed. Plenty of non-captain shinigami must be able to use bankai since it is a requisite for becoming a captain and the captains are replaced with some regularity throughout the series. I'm not questioning why someone like Renji is not captain, I am merely trying to state that it would be wrong to say that Ikkaku and Kaname are the only two officers to achieve bankai before/without being captains, since Renji (and Ichigo, for that matter, special case I'll grant you) can use bankai and Kaname goes on to become a captain. -- El jota 15:45, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Then what you should change is this: They [Ikkaku & Kaname] are the only two officers currently known to have achieved Bankai, without their division captain's knowledge.Renji Abarai 17:49, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Zanpakuto
It seems to me that, if you look at Suzumushi when it was in Tousen's un-named friends grave it did not have the ring on it, and all of his Swords abilities revolve around that ring. Could it be that the ring itself is Tousens zanpakuto and the sword is just a sword? Arieus 02:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Kroduz: As seen in his Bankai, I think only the ring is his zanpakuto, the sword acts only as a sub-weapon. His Shikai also came out from that ring. So I think SUZUMUSHI IS THE RING ATTACHED ON TO TOUSEN'S SWORD. Which means, THE RING IS THE ZANPAKUTO.


 * Well nothing of this sort has been confirmed so it should not be added to the article page. As far as he using someone else Zanpakuto is nothing more than a rumor. It has Never been stated in either the manga, the anime or any of the sourcebooks that he does not use his own Zanpakuto, it only has two Shikai commants that unlock different abilities WhiteStrike 04:53, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, when I look at it during the part you mention, the ring is still there. Care to send me links to whatever manga chapter this is shown in?

Garganta?
how can he do Garganta? is it some kind of Kidō?--Kisukeiscool100396 23:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

lol they never elaborate, but from what's been shown it appears to work like a Kidō spell. Kisuke said some incantations before creating the Garganta for Ichigo, so it can be assumed. The Green Ranger 02:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

what was the incantation?--Kisukeiscool100396 03:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

hold on....Incantation: "The Stone Bridging Both Worlds Lies In My Right Hand, The Sword Securing Reality In My Left. Black-Haired Shepard, Chair Of Hanged Men, With The Arrival Of The Stratus, We Strike The Ibis." Chapter 240, page 1. Renji Abarai 06:06, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Automated transfer of Problem Report #19577
The following message was left by Jalalibad via PR #19577 on 2009-03-09 01:43:47 UTC

Kaname Tousen got his Zanpakuto from Miyako Shiba, Kaien Shiba's dead wife, just thought that I'd let you know

Okay... so where did he get this idea? I don't even recall any sort of hints of this. Arrancar109 07:14, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

especially considering she died around the same time that Kaien did from a hollow attack, and Tosen was already the 5th seat of the 9th division, with a zanpakuto way before that event even took place. Salubri 12:26, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Didin't the chap say that Kaname's friend was killed by her husband. Miyako was killed by a hollow.Saimaroimaru 05:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Suzumushi Tsushiki
Okay, when he used his bankai in the English anime, he said, and I quote "Bankai. Suzumushi Tsushiki, Enma Korogi." So, why is Suzumushi Tsushiki in his Shikai? Is there some version change in the English adaption that I dont know about?--Kylecharmed 16:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Lol you might be looking at it the wrong way its not in the shikai section actually its just above bankai because its the term that proceeds the name, there was really no other way to put it on there. Thats why the 2nd movement is just above the offensive shikai ability. Suzumushi tsushiki is referring to the bankai its just above it is all.

That makes no sense, and is quite confusing to someone visiting the page. Perhaps you could write it to be Also, the information on how he activates the Bankai should be under that, not his Bankai's special ability. --Kylecharmed 19:00, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Bankai: Suzumushi Tsushiki, Enma Korogi
 * Suzumushi Nishiki, Benihiko

While it does make sense to list them that way. The second part doesn't why would you put how its activated in the part that just describes what its characteristics are at that stage. The special ability section is the description of what it does. Which is why the information is right there. Not in the bankai portion where it explains what the zanpakuto looks like in bankai.Salubri 19:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Non-neutral POV
Yeah, even though he may be an antagonist, I actually see a problem with the "Kaname Tousen is a hypocrite" statements in this article. Assuming that Tousen follows his philosophy of "following the path of least bloodshed", wouldn't it be more accurate to think that Tousen believes that Aizen's intervention would lead to less lives lost in the long run?

Unless you guys have a source that Kubo says he made Tousen to be a hypocrite. :/ - LionsLight 09:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

The article is not interested in what tosen's point of view on why he does what he does in general the fact is if his reasoning is ever given it will be put up but the idea that its wrong to call tosen a hypocrite when he believes in this peace philosophy and may follow aizen based on some support of that belief does not deny the fact that its gonna cause more blood shed then if the whole events surrounding aizen didn't take place. Shinigami have a job to do based on the balance of the world, aizens goals are counter to that he is attacking others, inciting war which the shinigami do not commonly engage in also he is planned to kill everyone in an entire town and if he succeeds the world will fall. The real question is what amount of blood shed was supposedly being spilt before his plans came about that would warrant his actions as the path with less blood shed? From a logical stand point yes tosen is a hypocrite, though he may justify his actions and even believe aizen's interaction will cause less bloodshed in the end if he wants, that does not negate the reality of what he is doing. The general consensus is just because he believes it doesn't make it right and the point being he is shown in direct odds with his own philosophy (especially in the case of consorting with hollows and arrancar who feed on human souls). Besides that it credible triva because of the aforementioned reasons and not directly part of the article not only that but he is believed to be a hypocrite though not in some many words by those who knew him in the gotei 13. So no it doesn't have to be sourced directly by kubo stating that, because the interactions with him or about him regarding his philosophy are readily seen in the series.Salubri 15:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. What you essentially just explained was "Tousen is a hypocrite" is nothing more than original research. Especially since he has never gone against his two principles; "To follow the path of least bloodshed", and "Killing without purpose is murder, but to kill with purpose is justice". What Kubo has made clear ever since his defection from Soul Society is that Tousen has the utmost confidence that Aizen's plan is along that path.

If anything, logic would also imply two things: Tousen believes that without Aizen's intervention, there will be far more casualties, and that Tousen is a utilitarian, who cares about the outcome moreso than the means of reaching it. But that'd be original research as well. :(

And I'm actually concerned about the introductory paragraph as well, which seems rather eager to juxtapose his philosophy by showing off his command of hordes of savage hollows right after. But that might just me being nitpicky. LionsLight 03:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

If you asked the question based on speculating the meaning behind it do it on the forum. We go by the reality of the situation in the article not speculating on why or maybe. As I stated before it really doesn't matter his reasoning behind it, the official view is from what is given and shown. The Talk page is only for maintenance and content conversation based on what is established in the series, what is shown is tosen being hypocritical any deeper meaning to that or reasons against that line of thinking can be discussed by you and others in the forum.Salubri 03:59, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * No, I just think it is incorrect to call him a hypocrite in this particular article, since it's original research. I was just bringing in an example of what could also be added if pro-Tousen sides also did original research. I apologise since in retrospect, I can see I didn't make it clear. Would you mind if I try my hand at rewriting certain parts of the article I disagree with in a more neutral viewpoint? LionsLight 04:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Here's the essential problem he's a bad guy regardless of whether he see's himself as such, we can't suger coat the issue by making him seem less of a bad guy just like we can't suger coat hollows they eat human souls, Tosen commands arrancar and hollows. There really is no way around that. As i stated before you can debate the issue in the forum if you choose to but we cant change the nature of the article based on fan response, it has to be on the reality of the situation from what is illustrated in the manga and anime.Salubri 04:18, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

You make a good point, with him being a villain. But rest assured, I don't intend to try placing in anything which doesn't match up with official sources, or change the overall tone of the article. The only part which I'm really inclined to change would be the last few sentences of the introductory paragraph. And that would be to this (which bolded noting my changes):

"According to his own philosophy voiced by him several times, he follows the path that leads to the least bloodshed, which fuels his loyalty to Aizen, who commands an army of savage Hollows and Arrancar. Their ultimate goal is to overthrow Soul Society under the leadership of Aizen."

If you could look it over, and you still disagree with this, I'll drop the issue. Would that be okay? LionsLight 04:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I rewrote it so see if its better.Salubri 04:50, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I can't believe this is being debated. I mean, Tosen is a hypocrite. I have just expanded on the hypocrite trivia to include his "lack of fear" thing. I mean, he goes to Hisagi "those who don't know fear aren't worthy of battle", yet Iceringer has said Aizen doesn't know fear. But I rather doubt Tosen thinks Aizen is not worthy. The guy is a hypocrite and I don't think we need any awkward pandering to Tosen fans. He's a bad guy, he's a hypocrite and I frankly don't give a damn how much his fans think he is up to something noble or how hollows are misunderstood and the shinigami's might actually be the bad guys of Bleach or whatever rubbish. Tinni 15:18, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

You could look at it this way: Tosen has known Aizen longer than most arrancar and probably knows him better. From his perspective, Aizen might not be completely fearless. Either way, this argument is pointless and the article shouldn't contain any statements about Tosen's hypocracy because that can only be considered opinion. Tosen is an antagonist, he believes in following a path of less bloodshed, etc. Labeling him as a hypocrite shouldn't be done in this article. Jacksane 04:27, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

5th Division?
It is stated at the history section that he used to be at the 5th division before he was transferred at the 9th division. When and where was this information taken?--Agate genbu 15:19, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Read chapter 176, Tosen was a member of the 5th division when aizen was a lieutenant there and he tells komamura that he should meet him and later aizen meets komamura based on tosens interactions with the two.Salubri 16:02, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That's kind of ambiguous, neither Aizen nor Tosen say that he was in the 5th Division, all the Aizen says is that he heard alot about him from Tosen. Also note that during the TBtP Aizen says the Tosen has been loyal to him, but he nor Shinji make a reference of him having been in the 5th Division. While it may be possible that he was is not stated thus left to interpretation. WhiteStrike 16:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I think there is a BIG chance that Komamura know the Vizards because he knew Tosen and Aizen before Tosen became the 5th seat of the 9th division. Regarding the 5th division issue, I don't really care whether Tosens's from the 5th or not. I was just surprised that he was a "part" of that division.--Agate genbu 16:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Well he tells him to come to his division they have a great officer that he is sure he would like then later he meets aizen who says tosen has told him alot about him all within that situation. So unless you can come up with someone else who tosen was referring to i dont really see it being that ambiguous. It wouldnt make sense otherwise to even be included in the scenario. what other interpretation is there related to the context in which komamura is remembering the event, otherwise it wouldn't be brought up at all.Salubri 16:45, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Tousen's Blindness
erm.. just wondering.. if tousen is blind, how does he know whats going on the projector showing ichigo and the others in Las Noches while he asked ichimaru to see it? plz dont flame me or anything..just curious. xanablaka 14:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It's been stated that he uses his spiritual sense to see. Now whether that works like eyes would or just as a sort of sonar ala Daredevil is never mentioned. It may very well be revealed in coming issues. TomServo101 14:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Tosen's Mastery of another Shinigami's Zanpakuto
Tousen is the only person in bleach known to be able to use some one else Zanpakuto, yet it's not under his Powers & Abilities list. On top of that he seemed to have enough sync with his Zanpkauto to cut a high level attacker like Kenpachi(which without a great sync it's proven that he can't be cut in the fight with ichigo)and Shinji. On top of that, Tousen is able to use it's Bankai as a Seated rank in the 9th Division which is beyond even Ikkaku, since it's not even his Zanpakuto. and one last little quip is that Tousen never fought Shinji in the Manga during TbtP, that was an anime only occurrence and not Kubo Tite's orignal grand design or else he would have included that along with bouts and the rampaging Zanpakuto so I would mention that as anime only-Jio Freed 20:34, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Many of us do speculate that Suzumushi is Tosen's dead friend's Zanpakuto. Hell, to be honest, even I think it is. But as much as we'd like that to be true, there are logical arguments that are sufficient enough to make this only a possibility and not completely concrete. And as such, we're not leaving this issue as confirmed info, but only a possibility. Arrancar109 20:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * And yes, many of us DID see this page that you posted not too long ago: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/09/ Arrancar109 20:41, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

that confirms it it's the same design, ring and everything-Jio Freed 20:51, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, we gotta wait for at least 1 other administrator to look over this. Chances are he'll see this and contribute his point of view, but until that happens, we are to do NOTHING on the main article, since it'll likely be reverted. As long as an issue is present here, we shouldn't change it until it has been truly resolved. It has been like this for many other issues that came up on this wiki, so this issue will be included in this as well. Arrancar109 20:47, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

You don't-hear my name anymore: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/212/02/ count down to the end 2: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/09/ EVEN STEVEIE WONDER CAN AND SEE THEY'RE the same ZANPAKUTO! and don't ever revert my edits unless an admin dose it-Jio Freed 20:51, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I am an administrator, but I'm not the administrator that made the "Suzumushi might very well be Tosen's" argument. That's the guy we're waiting for here. And your edit was only somewhat undone, due to you writing over a "Resolved" from an earlier Resolved issue (which was likely this one way back up the page, but still...). That's why I re-posted your link in one of my messages here. But anyway, we're waiting for the administrator that made the argument in the first place to look over this before we can actually consider this issue resolved. Arrancar109 20:57, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Well as an Admin that questions whether or not its true ill say what i always have. A simple picture is not enough, it could have just as easily been his and he laid it on her grave out of respect and then picked it back up. The reality is we don't know. It has never been brought up in conversation nor has it been remotely hinted at, she is never shown with it either. All there is to go on is a ambiguous picture that could literally go one way or another. It is the very reason it should not be listed on the article as if it is a fact. Not to mention of what we know of zanpakuto it is unlikely as they are individual spirits but they are also apart of their wielders soul. There is yet to be any proof that after the death of a wielder the zanpakuto can just switch or change wielders.Salubri 21:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Admins are still just fans in the end, so no matter what he picks it's just their opinion and not FACT especially when you choose not to believe what's in front of your eyes with the info that the creator of the subject, Kubo Tite in this case, has given and give into your own fan spec which has no proof behind it. Salubri it is a relevant conversation because it gives way to show that Zanpakuto's can be wield by others with efficiency and can be the truth that under certain conditions that they can violate the rule of not being able to wield someone's Zanpakuto other then their own. And as they say a picture is 1000 words http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/148/09/, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/213/14/ and artist try not to make mistakes, such making a sword a duplicate of another when the main story revolves around unique swords and designs.-Jio Freed 21:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

The fact remains, the picture is too ambiguous to definitively state that it was previously her zanpakuto. The only thing clear from this is that he had the zanpakuto when she died. Unless he explicitly states that she was indeed the previous owner, we cannot state it in the article without it being speculation. Ancient Chaos 22:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

First off thats the headline that is used when non-relevant topics are being talked about on talk pages and are being moved to forums. which i was about to do before i read what the conversation was. Secondly your stating an opinion based on nothing but a picture a undetailed one at that. We all admin included have been in many conversations on the information placed in the articles and have all in all decided that somethings are left out that cant be proven. What your talking about is pure speculation you have no proof that its her's as i stated before. If you can prove she has wielded it or that it was in fact her's previously then your right until then the opposite is just as true. You also have no proof to determine a zanpakuto is capable of being wielded by anyone other then its owner, as once again its based on an ambiguous picture that doesn't prove nor even show that.Salubri 22:04, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Swordsmanship?
"Tōsen's swordsmanship mastery is even further empathized by his capability of fighting on even terms against Kenpachi Zaraki, who is most likely the foremost swordsmanship expert in Soul Society." -Tosen not only lost that fight, but let's not forget that Zaraki was blind during it, so I think it's a stretch to call that fighting evenly. His databook stats also seem to indicate that Kaname is much more skilled at kido than he is at swordsmanship (low offensive, defense, and physical strength). I think this part should be altered.

Trivia
In the trivia it says that Tosen was closest to Shuhei & Sajin. This is stated in the article & I feel it should be deleted from the trivia. Minato88 20:28, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

The following have been removed from the trivia.
 * Tōsen seems to contradict himself, as although Tōsen says he "follows the path with least bloodshed", he is well aware that Aizen plans to destroy Karakura Town (which will kill everyone in the town) in order to create the, thus causing the deaths of many and creating bloodshed. Also, he once taught his former lieutenant, Shūhei Hisagi, that those who do not know fear are not fit to battle; however, Iceringer has said that Aizen fears nothing of existence. This overall suggesting that Tōsen is a hypocrite.
 * Way too long and opinionated.


 * As shown in Episode 209, Kaname had his Bankai 110 years ago when he sneak attacked Kensei making him formerly one of the few known Seated Officers to have Bankai without the knowledge of their captain, the other being Ikkaku Madarame.
 * Either already stated or not relevant.


 * Kaname is the lowest known ranked officer (5th seat during Kensei's tenure as Captain) to achieve Bankai.
 * Not relevant.


 * Due to his blindness, Aizen's Zanpakutō can't affect Tōsen, since its special ability only becomes effective after someone witnesses its release.
 * This one might have a place, but not sure.


 * Tōsen and Kisuke Urahara have similar release commands, Tōsen's being "cry", where as Urahara's is "sing"; however both are used as "nake".

If you think any of them deserve to be on the page, state your case here before adding them. --Yyp 15:41, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

Tosen's "mask"
Not really trivia, but anything that relates to Tosen summoning his "mask" is not allowed. Until the next chapter, it is speculation. --Gold3263301 09:42, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

I would like to request that this article be put under temporary protection so we don't have to endlessly revert speculative edits regards Tosen bringing out his mask. That's the most likely direction this is heading but we can't be sure and Kubo may well throw a curve ball. Since Tosen is not involved in the anime, there would be no need to edit his article until next weeks manga release. So, how about it? Tinni 09:53, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Just did and can we please stop calling or assuming he has a mask he just put his hand up to his face, unless people have a direct line to kubo you dont know what he will do yet. This is the exact reason the page has to be locked because the assumptions are being considered fan boy facts without being confirmed as. Stop writing the story that Kubo's job. Salubri 09:58, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Come on, we all know its a vizard mask. Aizen has the Hōgyoku, which makes both Arrancars and Vizards. He's already created arrancars to serve him, and its only natural that he would try the opposite. And who better to try the process on that his own 2 servant-Captains, who already would do anything for him. If it failed, he wouldn't care, and if it succeeded, he would only make better servants for himself.--Black Artist 23:18, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of how likely it is, it is speculation until it is actually shown in the manga. Until then, it will not be allowed. --Yyp 23:24, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Black Artist, but not just to bandwagon. Its pretty obvious what Tosen will do if he's holding his hand to his face. Norseninja 12:53, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Who cares how obvious it is! It hasn't happened! Until it does it is speculation. It's as simple as that. Tinni 13:51, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Protection
Constant adding of speculation has been continually been placed in to the article despite the policies and manuel of style being against that form of editing. Therefore until such time as the next chapter is out the page will be locked to protect its integrity against constant changes. Salubri 09:55, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Chapter is up, so you should unlock it/allow editing. The End 02:05, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. The chapter is out and it seems to be true, about Tosen's mask... but I think it should be added by an admin first before unlockage. --Gold3263301 03:23, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Really? Do you have a link? (It's not that I don't believe you, but I can't find it myself, and I'd love to read it.) Twocents 04:50, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-chapter-397.html Here.--Gold3263301 04:52, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks dear! ^_^ Twocents 04:53, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Hybrid, Vizard
It lists Tosen's Species as "Shinigami, Hybrid". On Ichigo and the Vizard's pages, it says Vizard instead of Hybrid. I know Tosen himself says "Hybrid", but a Hybrid could be either Vizard or Arrancar. Plus, it is the same as the Vizard's, who were Aizen's first attempt at Hybrids (with Tosen's help, mind you). Actually, The only one known to have become a Vizard without Aizen, is Ichigo, who was turned by Urahara Kisuke. And Urahara used the Hogyoku on Shinji and the others during there Hollowfication. The same Hogyoku Aizen used on Tosen for his Hollowfication. I'm just saying, that instead of having Hybrid on there, shouldn't it say Shinigami/Vizard for Tosen, even if he isn't part of that group? WestleyCole 19:52, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

I don't really see why he should be a Vizard. Vizard is the name of a group of hollowfied Shinigami, not a species. Ichigo is an exception since he is unoffically in their group. --Gold3263301 20:48, December 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * The word Vizard means "Masked Army(仮面の軍勢, kamen no gunzei)". If u go by this then it makes no sense to refer to them(Shinji's group) as Vizards. Including Ichigo there are only 9 of them, so how is that in anyway an ARMY. The reason Tosen is not classified as one just yet, is that we r waiting for Aizen, Gin, or Tosen to call themselves a Vizard. We don't know for sure what they have shown us is a normal Vizards power, so we don't want to classify them as such just yet. Minato 21:03, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Point being the term Vizard is exclusively used by Shinji's group as a name for what they are and what their group is called. Ichigo acknowledges a place among them as well as they acknowledge him as one of them, even if that connection is informal. We cannot as a site call Tosen such based on the fact that doing so is a fan thing not a factual thing. He has not called himself as such only stating that his abilities are similar. Not to mention Shinji and the others came up with the term and outside of themselves no one calls them that. So the basic term of Hybrid is correct whether you speak of tosen, Ichigo or Shinji and is fine to use to describe him but its not anyone with a mask can be one type of deal. Salubri 21:33, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

I think we should reclassify Tosen as a Shinigami-Hollow hybrid, not just "Shinigami,Hybrid". That doesn't say what sort of Hybrid he his. For all we know he could be a Shinigami/Troll. The End 23:44, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

lol I agree--Ice Kitsune 02:50, December 4, 2009 (UTC)

That works. It answers the point about hybrid meaning different things, while keeping it unspecific until the series is specific. Good call. WestleyCole 18:14, December 4, 2009 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and labeled him a Shinigami-Hollow, Hybrid, for now. If the term Vizard is just a group then there has to be more changes to the Vizard page which I will bring up on that talkpage. If Shinigami-Hollow, Hybrid is wrong then Salubri or another Admin can immediately change it back, but we need to think about this before we label it something else. Minato 18:32, December 4, 2009 (UTC)

Shinigami-Hollow Hybrid would be fine but getting more specific then that is highly unlikely. If we know anything of the series we know that they are forth coming with terms and Vizard is not one that would use to denote anyone other then Shinji's group and ichigo. As per the reasons i stated above. To call them anything else would be fan based he cant be a vizard unless shinji and the others state he is, he himself doesn;t call himself that i doubt he even knows the word as no one else calls them that, its uniquely their word. Hollow-Shingiami hybrids were always stated as Arrancar even though their addition seems after the fact as nobody seemed to use that term until the arrancar arc even when they were somewhat evident before then. Salubri 18:38, December 4, 2009 (UTC)

I found out that Vizard really is a race not Shinji's group. I mean Ichigo mention that "Are they Arrancar or Vizards?" in Bleach movie 2 about the 2 girls. Even this manga chapter http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/225/11/ said Vizard is a race not a groups name. So Kanme Tosen is a Vizard. --Cococrash11 07:25, December 12, 2009 (UTC)Cococrash11

Trivia
I think it is noteworthy to mention that his mask is the largest of all the Shinigami-Hollow hybrids thus far (his mask covers his face and chest, and all but a small spot at the back of his head). None of the others so far have demonstrated this, and I believe it should be mentioned in the Trivia at least. ~ NOTASTAFF Ryun Uchiha (Ten Tailed Fox, Getsueikirite-taichou) (talk) 18:10, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think so. It strikes me as something similar to "Soifon is the first female character to be shown using Bankai", which I recall saying that wasn't noteworthy at all. Aside from that, the fact that his mask changes his upper-body area is already mentioned in his "Hollowfication" section. Arrancar109 18:26, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Gorjea Grillo
I was reading both the new chapter and this wikia, here it says that Grillar Grillo means chipring crickets, grillar I´ve never heard that word before, i looked 4 it and it means coruscate, if someone could check the kanjis used, Cuz the correct verb form would be ´´Gorjea´´ (Chirp), and plus about this, I´m not sure if the Grilla/Gorjea is a release command, plus, the whole structure of this release being both japanese and spanish is very strange, could someone answer this? xXUlquehXx 17:37, December 10, 2009
 * Just informing u that u rn't being ignored. I have asked another user if she can help out here. Minato  23:46, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

OK Gorjear is definitely not the word. "Gorjear" is mostly to refer to some specific sound produced like birds that's more like gurgly, if you get what I mean. I don't know the Kanjis, but usually Tite Kubo ignores the Kanji reading for the Spanish names. I'm checking te Raws to look at the Furigana... OK, while I Download the Raw (I can't believe it can't be found online, talk about stupid)... Grillar is a verb in Spanish (I checked the RAE -Royal Spanish Academy- dictionary), and it does appear as a verb to refer to the crickets' sound. As I have said countless times, the word isn't very common, I had never heard it before, but it does exist. I really doubt that Gorjear could be an option, firstly because the definition isn't correct, second, because I feel Kubo wanted to emphasize the cricket thing with the double "Grillo", and third, because the Katakana for both words is too different, and Kubo always includes Furigana to avoid confusion on pronunciation. OK, finally checked the RAW. Grillar is correct, the Furigana confirms it. Check the pic, there you'll see the Kanji and, in small letters, some Katakana, that show how it's meant to be read. I hope it was of some use. Lia Schiffer 03:06, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Should we note that he is the only Shinigami with the ability to use a Resureccion? That seems fairly important, since previously only Arrancar could use Resureccion. The End 02:43, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * Seen so far! I think Tousen implied that both Gin and Aizen had something like this a chapter or two ago. --Reikson 02:55, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Suzumushi Hyakushiki Grillar Grillo
I'm a little confused. Is Grillar Grillo the name of his Hollowfication and is Suzumushi Hyakushiki Grillar Grillo the name of his Resurreción? --Animeluvr | (Talk) 23:41, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know. I will see if I can't find out for u tho. Minato  23:46, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's a bit confusing, I must say. Grillar Grillo is definitely Spanish, so I would guess that's the name of his Resurreccion, same as Murcielago or Pantera. Suzumushi Hyakushiki is obviously Japanese, and it seems similar to Tosen's way of calling for his zanpakuto's abilities (like when he calls Bankai he first says Suzumushi Tsuishiki and then the name of his Bankai Enma Korogi). I'd say that Suzumushi Hyakushiki is equivalent to some sort of spell or a release command, while Grillar Grillo is the name of his Hollow Resurreccion or Hollow Zanpakuto, if you could call it like that. Though if you ask me, Grillar Grillo is a pretty dumb name. The word Grillar isn't really of common use in Spanish, honestly, I didn't even know it existed, and I'm a native speaker. To sum up, the Hollowification in itself might not have an specific name (The Vizards at least don't have a special name to call their masks as far as we know), and Grillar Grillo would be the name of his "zanpakuto" (again, if you could call it like that), while Suzumushi Hyakushiki could be considered a release command (forgetting for a moment that he was once a Shinigami). I hope I didn't make it more confusing than it already was.Lia Schiffer 00:23, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Yo! To whoever edits Tousen's page... concerning his little Resurrecion thing... this (鈴虫百式) is the symbol for Suzumushi Hyakushiki, meaning 'Cricket Hundredth Ceremony' or some such. --Reikson 01:09, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ergo, it DOES NOT mean Lunatic Shackles Cricket. Just thought you might want to know.--Reikson 01:26, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, I don't know if the furigana? kana? katakana? Oh, whatever... is correct, but I don't think Grillar Grillo is pronounced that way. Y'see, I'm pretty sure that where the symbol representing the sound 'j' is... that should be a symbol representing a 'y'.--Reikson 01:26, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

I found the correct kanji for Grillar Grillo somewhere and it's "狂枷蟋蟀 (グリジャル・グリージョ)" so yeah since the page is locked I can't add it--Kisukeiscool100396 01:47, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Easy everyone, please. No one ever said that Suzumushi Hyakushiki meant "Lunatic Shackles Cricket", that's the meaning of the Kanji for Grillar Grillo. Like all the other Resurreccions we've seen, they have a name in Spanish, and are at the same time written with kanji that have a different meaning in Japanese. For example, Grimmjow's Resurreccion is Pantera which is Spanish for "Panther". At thr same time, in Japanese it's written with the Kanji "豹王" that means Panther King. It's the same with Grillar Grillo (though I slightly disagree with the "Chirping Cricket" translation because "Grillar" is the infinitive form of the verb, but heck) Grillar Grillo meand "Chirp Cricket" in Spanish, and the Kanji (I'm guessing the one's Kisukeiscool brought are the right ones) mean "Lunatic Shackles Cricket". About pronunciation, in Spanish, the double "L" sounds like the "J" in July, not like a single L, so the katakana are okay the way they are. In Japanese, the "J" has an equivalent sound, while the "Y" is softer. To make the difference between the two sounds, Japanese use the character ジ that sounds like "ji" in Jim, along with one of the "Y" symbols. For example Grimmjow's Katakana is グリムジョー. There you can see the ジ (Ji) along with the ョ (Yo), which together make the sound "jo". I think the pronunciation and translation is alright the way it is already, though I'm not a Japanese expert, so I can't promise about the Kanji. I hope I explained better now. Lia Schiffer 02:31, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

To supplement and elucidate the above--as well as hopefully answer most of your questions, check out my thoughts here:

http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Minato88#You_said_you_were_confused_about_Tousen.27s_Resurrecion.3F

and lemme know what you think. Thanks :)

Oh, and P.S. to Lia Schiffer above: it's said that the infinitive of the verb can also be used as a noun in all the Romance languages--such as, here, Spanish--as it could in their ancestor, Latin. Compare English, where say kill is the infinitive (uninflected) form of the verb, but can also be used as a noun ("he got a kill in the video game").

But you're definitely right about Spanish double ll being written j in the katakana. Since the Spanish sound ranges between a palatalized approximant (like English y) and a palatal fricative, Kubo usually writes it as j. He did the same thing with Starrk's attack, Cero Metralleta, writing it in katakana as Sero Metorajetta. Adam Restling 12:21, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

OK this is the correct Kanji & definitions, provided by Adam Restling.


 * 清虫百式: 狂枷蟋蟀 (グリジャル・グリージョ)


 * Suzumushi: Hyakushiki (Grillar Grillo)


 * Suzumushi Hyakushiki means:"Bell Cricket", "Hundred style"


 * Grillar Grillo means:"Chiming/Chirping Crickets"

For more detail u can check the link Adam provided which will talk about it in more detail. Minato (Talk)  20:38, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

5th Division
I know that it has been talked before, but... some guy added the 5th Division in the Tousen's previous affiliations, and the article is protected so I can't undo it. -Rambard 20:52, December 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * It is under his previous teams, along with Squad Nine. It is correct this way. Minato  (Talk)  20:56, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

This is the main reason why people need to read the manga and make informed edits. Tosen was a member of the 5th division at one point when he first got into the gotei 13 thus how he nows aizen. He tells komamura about how he should stop by their quarters to meet their lieutenant (aizen) then later komamura meets aizen who tells him tosen has talked about him. This is all detailed in komamura's flashback of first hearing of aizen during his attack on him in the soul society arc. it is referenced information. Salubri 21:10, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

resurreccion
Shouldn't Suzumushi Hyakushiki be labeled as the release command for Tosen's Resurreccion? superlogan7437 02:19, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

It is. Since Tosen has multiple release commands, each of them are given before the related ability. (i.e. Suzumushi Hyakushiki before the Resurreccion, Suzumushi Tsuishiki before Bankai, Suzumushi Nishiki before Benihiko.) It says in the Shikai that he has multiple release commands, though perhaps that should be moved to under Zanpakuto, since it's true for Shikai, Bankai and now Resurreccion. Twocents  (Talk)  02:32, December 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Just correcting Twocents, but it is "Suzumushi Nishiki, Benihiko". Everything else she said is correct. Minato  (Talk)  02:41, December 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I listed it as it's shown on the article. What was incorrect? Twocents   (Talk)  02:43, December 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Suzumushi Nishiki (Cricket, 2nd Movement)


 * Benihikō (清虫式紅飛蝗, Crimson Flying Locusts): Suzumushi's second release command is "Smash His Limbs" (四肢を潰すよ, shishi o tsubusu yo), which changes Suzumushi into its Benihikō form. Suzumushi vibrates momentarily and, after Tōsen moves the blade around him in a circle, a trail appears from the sword's path. The trail turns into hundreds of blades that rain down on his opponents.[53]
 * This is a copy and paste. The page is locked, so I can't tell u what line it is on, but it is in his abilities section and I can confirm that it is correct this way. All u did was misspell "Nishiki" which u spelled "Tsushiki" by accident. Thats all. Minato  (Talk)  02:48, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Oh, haha. My ctrl + c is such a fail sometimes. Twocents  (Talk)  02:50, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Vizard is a race
I don't know if anyone had read what I wrote in Talk:Vizard or this article's talk so I'm making another section to let people know about this. I found out that Vizard really is a race not Shinji's group. I mean Ichigo mention that "Are they Arrancar or Vizards?" in Bleach movie 2 about the 2 girls. Even this manga chapter http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/225/11/ said Vizard is a race not a groups name. So Kanme Tosen is a Vizard. --Cococrash11 07:25, December 12, 2009 (UTC)Cococrash11

Despite the fact that you basically entered into a conversation that clearly was listed as closed and to not be edited. There is one basic flaw. Even if the vizard are a race we cant determine what Tosen is. The basic concept here is the word Vizard was created by shinji and the others and used exclusively by shinji and the others, no one else calls them that (besides urahara and isshin). They acknowledge ichigo as one of them, but unless they say something about Tosen being like them, we cant simply add him as such just because he has similar abilities. In fact that maybe the case that he is, but its them that have to refer him as such. If not for this issue then it would be natural to call him one but its not a universal term or even a known one amongst the characters, even in conversation with Komamura he is referred to as a shinigami-hollow hybrid or something reflecting that, but never with the term Vizard. If the name wasn't exclusive to them as a race/group then there wouldnt be an issue. Also considering what he has displayed so far he might be something else entirely. But your information does fit as them being a race which i supported all along so they can be changed as such but tosen's we have to wait on for at least one of then to comment (interestingly enough they are right there and havent commented once) or at least for him to making some connection to them besides having similar capabilities. Also Aizen calls them wanna be arrancar insinuating they arent up to par and if tosen is an ally then he must be something else if aizen is insulting them. Salubri (Talk)  08:04, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

I would say that the very fact that Tosen has a "Resureccion" would mean that he is not a vizard as the others understand it. None of the other vizards have shown a "Resureccion" as such. I guess you can make the argument that Ichigo's second vizard form was his "Resureccion" but that's speculation to a great extent. Indeed, right now the closest person to power to Tosen is Aaroniero Arruruerie: who had both a shinigami zanpakuto and an arrancar "Resureccion". So right now, in my opinion, it is best to leave Tosen as "Shinigami-Hollow, Hybrid". Tinni 10:16, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Wolf
during his history it's said that komamura have a fox face but it's revealed in omake that he's a wolf Shiny-gami 08:47, December 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Oookkaaayyy.... what does that have to do with Kaname Tosen? Seriously? Minato  (Talk)  19:06, December 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * it's written in this article that komamura is a fox but he's actually a wolf Shiny-gami 23:32, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

I fixed it. -- Yyp  (Talk)  23:55, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Picture of his Resureccion
Can we not use this as a picture of his Resureccion:? http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000003/000256072/19.jpgSaimaroimaru 18:27, December 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * No, because we will get a proper look at it next week. -- Yyp  (Talk)  19:18, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Picture of his mask teeth
Can we add this picture of his mask's teeth so people can understand the discription? When I first read it, I didn't understand. I have a low qual one, put either I or someone else can replace it once a HQ pic comes out. And other pages that had been here longer have slightly blurrly pis, like Barragan.--Black Artist 00:01, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Here's the High rez --Black Artist 00:01, December 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well we don't need two of the same pic so I removed the Low Resolution image. Minato  (Talk)  00:06, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Ok, well is someone who can add it going to add it yet?--Black Artist 21:23, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

somebody REALLY oughtta add it. I tried but I can't for some reason--Ice Kitsune 11:44, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Tosen's article is currently protected because people were editing it too much and moving things around and general doing things they shouldn't be doing. So for the foreseeable future, only admins can edit his page. I am sure one of them will get around to adding it soon. Else, you can wait until the protection on his page expires to add it yourself. I understand this is frustrating but please understand it had to be done. Tinni 11:54, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

kk's. admin's have all the luck--Ice Kitsune 18:50, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Personality
I think we should completely rewrite his Personality as based from the relevations of the new Chapter. --TekkenStorm 19:37, December 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * How can u justify rewriting someones entire personality section, based off of one chapter. Minato  (Talk)  20:10, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Well perhaps not his entire personality section, just re-word it. He has revealed a far great deal about himself recently. From his justice being different from goodness to his fear of dying as a Shinigami etc. Grimmjow2 21:35, December 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * OK how about this guys. The entire page could use an Overhaul. His personality section will be re-worded and new info will be added. Also, Tari's Kanji below will be added when the time comes that Kanames page can be unlocked and not face numeros edit and speculation problems. Minato  (Talk)  21:44, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

That's excellent Minato (I just realized you're a Naruto fan too lol), we can start editing as soon as Tite silences the crackpots lol.Grimmjow2 22:23, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Actually as Tinni mentions in the reference project only admin can do complete overhauls, which in Tosen's case has already been done previously. As far as the personality section is concerned the only thing that needs work is the first paragraph where it describes a bit of his philosophy but its obvious inaccurate and needs the information about his true intentions as well as his philosophy on fear to explain further. Salubri (Talk)  23:08, December 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * OH yeah. Salubri is right, only Admins can Overhaul a page. I didn't kno his page already had an overhaul so srry bout that. However, his Resurreccion should be moved below, under his Hollification section . Also as Tari said below, all of the Shiki translations r different, but the word is still the same. They should just say style or movement. Anyway, u guys have u'or answers, so this Discussion is closed. Minato  (Talk)  11:21, December 15, 2009 (UTC)

Adding Kanji
please add these kanji and translations:

二式 - Nishiki - Second Style

终式 - Tsuishiki - Final Style

百式 - Hyakushiki - Hundredth Style

these translations make more sense and are consistant. i'm not sure why there us a different translation for 'shiki' each time it's written on the page. once as movement, once as form and once as ceremonny. they're inconsistant translations which arn't too accurate.

Tari101190 19:49, December 14, 2009 (UTC)

Page Organization
I believe that the information on his resurrección should be put under the Hollowfication section of powers and abilities since his resurrección comes from his hollow powers. This should be done for any shinigami with a resurrección as well. I think it makes more sense that way. --AmazeKing 02:28, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

No actually it doesn't a resureccion is a result of sword release therefore it goes under zanpakuto. Hollowfication is the term used when donning a hollow mask, having nothing to do with the act of sword release.Salubri (Talk)  02:37, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Resurreccion
Grillar Grillo is the name of Tosen's Resurreccion, not just his release command for it. What about it does people don't understand? superlogan7437 18:32, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Uhm... I believe u r confused. Suzumushi Hyakushiki is his release command and it is right above his Resurreccion which is labeled "Grillar Grillo". Minato  (Talk)  18:40, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Superlogan's right, the section lists Grillar Grillo as the form's release command, when it is clearly the name of the transformation. The "Suzumushi Hyakushiki" part is just following the pattern of his zanpakuto abilities (Second Form, Final Form, etc.). It wouldn't even make sense as a release command, seeing as commands are always verbs. Mohrpheus 21:07, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Uhhhh! Maybe I should have read it before commenting. I'll ask an Admin to correct it. Minato (Talk)  21:29, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

As it is shown Grillar Grillio is the name of his resurrection which would mean that it has no real release command. Speculative that Ichigo's transformation maybe similar if that is a trend. Salubri (Talk)  00:00, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Death?
Is it settled that he's dead following the last events? I realize that antagonists started dying quicker ever since Stark battled Shunsui (if we don't count Yammi, that is), and there is such logic given the last page of the last comic, yet...it's Bleach, it's manga, it's cliffhanger-styled chapter ending. I'm just wondering if there's any confirmation, apart from the storyline, that Tōsen is deceased. papuraverde 01:18 December 18, 2009 (UTC+2)

Yes Kaname is considered dead. Until we have reason to believe that he miraculously survived a large sword through the head then he will remain as such. To many things point to his death, not enough to him living. Minato (Talk)  23:24, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Several survived worse. Okay then: dead for now, for sure or not in two weeks time. papurverde

I would agree the elements there are far to many for him to be anything other then dead. A trend among the dead or dying in the series rather is simple especially if your a major character. You either get fatally wounded in some way then go into a flashback. Go real deep into feelings or emotional state, get all poetic, or simple straightforward death. Besides high speed regeneration cant heal damage to the brain or internal organs.Salubri (Talk)  00:00, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Zanpakuto
I don't know if this has already been resolved but people have alot of ideas as to the purpose of the ring on Tosens Zanpakuto. It seems to resemble a Shin gunto which was used by Imperial Army officers to enforce law. This seems to fit in with Kaname's goal for justice, similar to how the Shin Gunto was used by police to "deal justice" in a way--Shiraha Manjitomoe 01:35, December 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Fan speculation has no place in the wiki. Tinni 01:59, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

The ring is used for his Bankai. See the Zaraki fight. -- Yyp  (Talk)  09:37, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Correct Katakana for Los Nueve Aspectos
ロス・ヌウェベ・アスペクトス. Here is the raw http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/66933/16?t=1261210832--Kisukeiscool100396 08:26, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

Resurrección Location
I may be wrong but shouldn't the Resurrección section in the Power & Abilities be under Hollowfication. This is because the Resurrección is a power more common to the Hollow side of the power spectrum. Yes it does involve the use of the Zanpakutō but if Tōsen Hollowfication is anything like Ichigo's then the Hollow part of him is separate from the Zanpakutō. --Tripodssj6 16:12, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

I dont really know how many times this conversation needs to be had. Resurreccion means sword release hence why it is under zanpakuto, sword cutter, Hollowfication is used as a term for doning a hollow mask noting more. Regardless of what the source is. Secondly if you wanna use the argument of ichigo that further proves the point seeing as they aren't separate the inner hollow and the zanpakuto spirit are sharing the same space (inner world) as well as physical body. Not to mention neither seems to require a release command. But Tosen is shown clearly favoring his sword at release and like most arrancar using resurreccion. More needs to be learned about Ichigo before it can be determined what his situation is on that. Salubri (Talk)  17:32, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

There are two points to counter your argument. First there is Coyote Starrk who's Resurrección has nothing to do with his sword but with Lilynette Gingerback. Second in the Zanpakutō Unknown Tales arc Ichigo loses Zangetsu but retains Hollow Ichigo. If they truly share the same physical body them how could one be taken and the other not be. Also when Hollow Ichigo first made a physical appearance in Ichigo's inner world he was also separate from Zangetsu. Even though the Resurrección is mostly seen in regards to a sword, the sword itself is just part of the hollow power sealed away. In truth the swords the Arrancars wield are not Zanpakutō (with the exception of Aaroniero Arruruerie) because a Zanpakutō is a partner spirit to the Shinigami, where as the Arrancars swords are more of a storage container. --Tripodssj6 01:40, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Anime filler are not canon and so do not count, especially for something as important as the relationship between Hollow Ichigo and Zangetsu. In addition, I would like to point out that the filler is just confusing in many respects and raises more questions then it answer. How can a shinigami "force" their zanpakuto to go into Shikai? Why don't their zanpakuto disappear then the spirits manifest themselves? Why did zangetsu go inside Ichigo when the other's haven't? Seriously, the fillers are to be enjoyed for the fun and good times and not used to try and explain the manga. Lilynette is Starrk's zanpakuto and the sword he has is just an equipment. Starrk's release is under his zanpakuto: Lilynette's section. Lastly, the arrancar call their swords their zanpakuto so therefore they are. The fact that an Arrancar's zanpakuto isn't like a shinigami's zanpakuto is besides the point. Tinni  (Talk)  01:58, December 20, 2009 (UTC)

Tinni makes the point clear as well to add further to what you bring up Ill say this what i said about the physical being is true manga canon and probably detailed in the anime as well it is exactly what Hollow ichigo says to ichigo upon his entering the inner world during his vizard training. So that is factual to the series. Secondly as Tinni mentions in every case the Arrancar call the swords zanpakuto. I along with many others note that it is not a true zanpakuto but the release of resurreccion is soley something of hollow/arrancar exclusivity the fact that tosen is capable of such a thing is notable but it still remains that it is a release of a sword (i.e. zanpakuto) just as it is when they release. <font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  04:33, December 20, 2009 (UTC)