Talk:Zangetsu (Zanpakutō spirit)

Adjuchas-class or higher?
I think that the note about possibly being an adjuchas should be removed, because of the paragraph before stating:"If Ichigo were ever to turn into a complete hollow, it would be the end of the world, according to the Shinigami." I think that would be enough to illustrate his power, and anyway, how would a mere adjuchas be the end of the world when even Rukia can kill one? Wouldnt that be a decrease in power, because Ichigo easily "kills" an adjuchas (it turns out the adjuchas is still alive later, but thats what you get for not releasing Bankai). If it says anything about a possible hollow class, I think it should say possibly Vasto Lorde.Crimmastermind 06:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of the same thing

I'm not sure if the "end of the world" statement is even in the manga, but I won't touch it for now. However, I have removed claims of Hollow Ichigo being an adjuchas or vasto lorde. Technially, both classes are made up of multiple hollows, with one's willpower in control. While his strength is at least as strong as an adjuchas-class hollow, Hollow Ichigo is still technically a singular hollow, since he hasn't consumed other souls or hollows in all of Bleach canon. Arrancar109 21:46, 10 October 2008 (UTC)



His name is NOT Ogihci.
Look here. A mirror writing is different from a backward spelling. Now let's take a word like bid. What is the backward spelling of this word? dib. Now what is the mirror writing? Same, bid. The backward spelling of Ichigo's name and the mirror writing are different things altogether. And most importantly, the mirror writing was in Japanese. I forgot to mention this in the article, but a Japanese mirror writing will deviate from an English backward spelling even further. Therefore, the Hollow Ichigo's name is not Ogihci Ikasoruk, and as he claims, we can say that he actually has no name. :(His Wrath falls from the Heavens. :Starshade) 06:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)



Ichigo vs Ulquiorra
I think the section which say: ''While he is quite confident that he can defeat both Yammy and Ulquiorra together, Ichigo in his Vizard state could not inflict a scar on Ulquiorra. It is assumed that this is either because the Hollow's power is absolute but Ichigo is yet to learn how to use that power fully, or simply because the Hollow was underestimating Ulquiorra, and only recently gained the power to match him.'' is misleading, because it implies that Ichigo's attacks cannot damage Ulqiorra, much like his first attacks on Kenpachi. However, this is not true, since when Ichigo fired his Getsuga Tenshō at Ulquiorra, he said afterwards that it was too powerful for him to stop (though I admit that he managed to dodge it and was not really hurt as a result of the blast). Still, at least reword the paragraph (under trivia) so that it better reflects this fact.Crimmastermind 06:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I wrote the paragraph, so I guess I should be responsible for it. Okay, but until recently the fact that Ichigo's full power Getsuga couldn't even hurt Ulquiorra is true. So I think I'll just add that part (which states that even though he was unhurt Ulquiorra couldn't block it either) to the paragraph. What do you think? :(His Wrath falls from the Heavens. :Starshade) 21:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Getsuga doesn't work against Ulquiorra, even now. I think since the Grimmjow fight, Ichigo has gotten stronger, which means his hollow has gotten stronger.  That's why he was able to crack Ulquiorra's sword and force him into releasing.  Whether or not the hollow itself could beat Ulquiorra is immaterial, since Ichigo is (firmly?) in control.Big red01027 21:44, 12 February 2009 (UTC)



New Cero
This may be stupid but I think that since Ulquiorra's Cero is called Cero Oscuras meaning Dark or Black Cero, then Ichigo's Cero should be called Cero Blanco meaning White Cero (because of it white appearance). Hollow Ichigo is know for using white attacks so I'm pretty sure the color is white. The reason I say that is because most of the words that have anything to do with Hueco Mundo are Spanish words. Just a suggestion. --- Klross1.


 * There is no proof as of yet that Ichigo's cero is white. I mean yeah, it is possible that it will be, either stated by a character, or shown in the Anime (MUCH later, unfortunately), but do not forget that manga pages are naturally black and white. Just because Ichigo's new cero looks white in the manga doesn't confirm it until someone from the story (or Tite Kubo) states it. Don't forget, in the manga pages, just about every cero looks white, so it's too soon to assume that Ichigo's new cero is white. Arrancar109 19:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It's worth pointing out that the color page for chapter 353 shows that Ichigo's cero is white with a dark-pinkish trim like that on his black Getsuga Tenshou. Daisekihan 00:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * We can't take the luxury of inventing the techniques name, just because it seems to fit. If it hasn't been given an official name, then, just like Ichigo's Hollow, we can presume it has no name, or at least that it doesn't have one yet.Lia Schiffer 01:02, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

If I would have known that the comment I made was going to create a problem I wouldn't have put it on here. I also know that it's quite hard for one to forget that manga pages are black & white when i read various manga everyday (as i'm sure others do as well). I was just saying.. like everybody else does. It's called voicing ones opinion. If need be this "New Cero" section can be taken down by anyone if it's going to cause anymore "speculation" or "inventing" problems. (thnx:) ---Klross1.



Scarmask
One thing I had to notice was that the illustration on chapter 289, titled the Scarmask, featured a (top right quarter of a) skull face very similar to Ichigo's new Hollow mask, though there are notable differences. Do you think Kubo drew this to foreshadow Ichigo's new transformation? Its different shape and coloring might be because the design was still being processed, like Di Roy who appeared as early as in the first arc. :(His Wrath falls from the Heavens. :Starshade) 12:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The changes to the mask are very pronounced, the horns are now pointing upwards and much longer, also the mask does not have the face of a human school. the design on it is nothing like the current mask, etc. etc. I doubt it.Killa0norris 00:34, 21 March 2009(UTC)

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/289/02-03/ before

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/350/08/ after

Compare the two mask, the only resemblance is the horns.Killa0norris 00:36, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

not sure if this is relevant but if you look at the new mask on this hollow form it has more black then his normal mask, it was original thought by many that this represented the control he had, what if this is actually the amount of the hollows powers he is accessing (similar to the tails in naruto) this would explain why when it first appeared in the series it only had 1-2 strips and increases with the strength of his opponents

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/351/02/

Fawcettp 00:27, 18 April 2009 (UTC)



Automated transfer of Problem Report #23585
The following message was left by Anonymous via PR #23585 on 2009-06-25 08:08:46 UTC

Under the Fake Karakura section, it states that Hollow ichigo uses "Shunpo" to get behind Ulquiorra and rip his arm off. This is incorrect. Ulquiorra himself recognizes and distinguishes it as "Sonido"

Technically it is a shunpo but its speed is as fast as a sondio wich is faster than a shunpo the difference is when arrancar use sondio they make a vrrrm sound the shunpo does not

Yo
You know, could someone please get a picture/video from Bleach 233? Cause the Hollow taking over on that episode looked great - KingBlackChicken

energy release
should it be mentioned that whenever ichigo regains control over his body, after the hollow side takes control, there is a massive release of energy (as seen all three time the hollow has had complete control (vizard training, fighting zangetsu ep 233, and when fighting in HM)) this is great enough to shatter hachi's barrier and destroy several pillars in SS Fawcettp 09:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The Creature in his Chest.
In episode 233 there was a creature that popped out Ichigo's chest that attempted to consume Muramasa. Does anybody know what that is?--22:13, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * the worm thing also appears during his vizard training Fawcettp 01:57, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

It Looks similar to the touge of the Arrcanar when they first entered Hunco Mundo. Otherwise I am not quite sure myself, since the inner mouth of a hollow could be the touge, if you notice in the early manga and Anime Hollow have a second mouth inside their main one. -Desruprot

Hey i'm new here. i think that each vizard has a measurement like hollows. i think b/c of ichigo "naturally" became he can evolve like hollows.

it reminds me of the soul chain when it starts eating itselfKensei24 21:30, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Trivia clean-up
As per the junk trivia topic, I have removed the following things from the trivia section:

''Hollow Ichigo has stated that he doesn't know what he is. This could mean he might not even be a hollow, but something in between a Hollow, a Shinigami, a Vizard and an Arrancar. Also, he shows some of the ordinary Hollow characteristics, like the black eyes, but he neither has a hole nor a mask. Also, despite him being a hollow, Hollow Ichigo performs Shikai and Bankai much like a Shinigami, a feat that the Espada are not capable of. This is likely due to the fact that he was created in the very same moment as Ichigo reacquired his Shinigami powers after losing them during his first fight with Byakuya Kuchiki. As none of the inner Hollows of the rest of the Vizard was yet shown, it could be that he is a unique being.''
 * I shortened this to "Hollow Ichigo has stated that he doesn't know what he is." The rest is speculation.

When Ichigo transforms into a Hollow form during his second fight with Ulquiorra, he speaks only briefly to Orihime, though it is unknown whether this is the hollow mocking her or Ichigo speaking, though the latter is unlikely, as Ichigo doesn't remember anything after the fight.

''In his second form, despite being seemingly a berserker, Hollow Ichigo did not attack Orihime at first sight, being his only instinct was to "save" Orihime from any kind of danger, whether it's a friend or an enemy since he can't tell the difference in his current state. Why she is the only person Hollow Ichigo won't hurt is still unknown.''
 * These two were removed as we don't know that that form was controlled by Hollow Ichigo.

''It is unknown if this is truly an evolved form of his Hollow state, or something to do with the power of a Vizard. In either case, it appears that Ichigo is unable to control this power as of yet and may have to fight Hollow Ichigo again to gain that power.''
 * The remainder is either speculation or junk. --Yyp 20:07, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Inner Hollows
I think that vizard's inner "hollows" aren't hollows at all. Think about it; arrancars are the opposite of vizards and you dont hear about arrancars have inner shinigami. I'm just saying.

Take it to the forums or the blog page. The talk page is not for airing speculation or crack theories. Tinni 02:34, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Ulquiorra's arm ripped or cut off?
Ok, there has been some debate about whether Ulquiorra's arm was cut off or ripped off during chapter 350/351. The debate has, however, been carried out via user talk pages & edit messages. I thought it best to move the discussion here so that everyone can see it, and so that it is in one place. I've copied some relevant posts here. --Yyp 20:48, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

As of right now it's too vague to say what happened either way because I don't know what verb Ulquiorra used exactly [in Japanese] when he was talking about his regeneration abilities his arm in chapter 351. I believe that will help to make things clearer unless of course it gives an indefinite meaning and can be translated either way. Let's just hope that is not the case. MasterDeva 21:53, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

From what i can see Ichigo does have his sword in hand and Ulquirra does loose a arm to him those are facts, whether or not it was cut off or ripped off can't be known as its not shown all you see is the arm coming off and in the part of the scene you dont see the sword, which maybe obscured behind his back. In any case it would seem to fit that it was ripped off as there is nothing to prove that it was cut off with the sword. Stating that he was holding the sword is not the same as stating that he actually used it to cut the arm off which cant be clear. What we do know is that from what is shown it appears that it may have been ripped off by sheer strength alone (logically for the purpose of showing the strength of the new transformation). Salubri 00:03, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

First I'd like to remark that I came to the conclusion that Ulquiorra's arm was cut not because the Hollowfied Ichigo was holding a sword but through a series of indications suggesting that. The only reason I mentioned that the later was holding a sword before and after the confrontation was merely because Minato88 said that in the picture shown the transformed Ichigo was not holding a sword, which is incorrect. Now to the indications I talked about earlier. First in the first panel right before Ulquiorra's hand is grabbed we see something resembling blood coming out of his arm without Ichigo having made physical contact yet. Suggesting he first cut him up and then he grabbed his arm, which could actually make sense. Second in the next page we see the stance that he is in hints that he made a cutting motion. It should be noted that this isn't the first time Ichigo has cut off someone's arm (assuming he cut off Ulquiorra's arm), the first was when he took Yammy's avenging what he did to Sado's arm and the second one being, arguably, avenging Ishida for what Ulquiorra did to him. Third, we see in the first panel right under the "ripped arm" picture the wound in he's which appears to be too clean for an arm that was seemingly ripped off. These are the points that I base my argumentation. What would seem to be the key is in the phrase in the next chapter (351) where Ulquiorra is talking about his regenerative abilities and he refers to his lost arm. I don't know which verb he used when he was referring to his arm or if the meaning of the phrase is indefinite and can be translated freely according to how a translator seems fit. That's why I thought that you would consult a translator about this since as an admin you could have access to a translator that is helping with the site, well... Anyway that's my thoughts about this, I'm hoping that I can get a feedback from you regarding this, thanks for your time. MasterDeva 19:24, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to add this when I was writing my reasons and its an important one as well, here it is. Fourth, if the arm had been ripped off it would have been from one of the joints, as they are the weakest points of a limp anatomically, that's not what happened here. Thanks again. MasterDeva 21:02, October 19, 2009 (UTC) 


 * "First in the first panel right before Ulquiorra's hand is grabbed we see something resembling blood coming out of his arm without Ichigo having made physical contact yet."
 * That is not blood, - I'm 99.9999% certain that it is Ulquiorra's wing (or rather the hairy bit at the base of his wings). Again, I'm don't want to get into this, but I thought it was important to point out. Your other points are good. --Yyp 19:44, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * It doesn't look like a wing to me, check it out here and tell me what you think, it seems it goes around the SFX and not behind! http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/17496/18?t=1255982167 MasterDeva 19:59, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Much clearer pic: . I didn't know what it was at first, but it is behind his shoulder (i.e. on his body). If that was blood - it should be coming from lower down his arm (where the injury is), but it isn't. So it doesn't make sense to me that it is blood. Also, an attack from that angle, imo, would mean the wing would have been cut too if the sword was involved, but it wasn't (link:). But that doesn't mean that it absolutely wasn't cut off. It is open to interpretation (and that is why I didn't really want to get involved - I even vaguely remember thinking that it was cut off when I first saw that chapter). But at the moment, I'm leaning towards rip rather than cut. --Yyp 20:48, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * The reason I thought that it wasn't his was simply because 1) we don't see his other one in the same picture, 2) it seems to be going around the SFX pattern not behind from it (if it was the wing Kubo would have drawn it without the spaces, the reason I used the raw was because of this), 3) Ulquiorra seems to be turning to face Ichigo so his wing doesn't seem to be getting in his way anyways and finally 4) it doesn't seem to matter to Kubo from where the blood should be spreading as long as it is artistic lol. MasterDeva 21:15, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * It does seem to be the fur/hair Ulquiorra has around his back it's just that Kubo (or one of his associates) didn't draw the wings in that frame while it's obvious that he should and looks weird. Scratch that point form my list. It's always helpful to have another set of eyes, you never know what you missed. For someone who doesn't want to get involved in this you are doing a very good job Yyp, hehe. MasterDeva 22:23, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

I have changed it to his arm was CUT off. Can we please just leave this alone? Minato88 23:37, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * If the admin is okay with it I don't have a problem. I did this because I wanted the information on the wiki to be correct/clear not to torture anyone. I sincerely apologise for the trouble I have caused to you, I hope you understand. The funny thing is that in Ulquiorra's page was written as cut all along. MasterDeva 00:12, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Violet Cero
I was thinking that maybe we should put a picture of Hollow Ichigo's violet cero after the tri-focused one. Kon lover123 05:38, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

I think that we did do it at some point, but it was probably removed because the image wasn't good enough, even though it was the only shot of it. I'll look into it. Arrancar109 05:42, November 8, 2009 (UTC)

Questions about Introduction
I have some quick questions about the introductory paragraph's content and sources:


 * When is it stated that his formal title is "The Hollow Within Ichigo's Conscience"? Is there a specific place where it's mentioned, and if so, could a source be added?
 * Should Hollow Ichigo really be labeled as an "antagonist"? He always struck me as more of an anti-hero.
 * In the table under his picture, under "Affiliations", could Zangetsu be named as a previous affiliate?
 * How is it possible to claim that he doesn't affect the entire Bleach universe, when Ichigo wouldn't have stood a chance against any arrancar without the power he acquired from his inner Hollow?
 * Can I delete the last sentence- ' '"He had disappeared after Ichigo defeated him in his Inner world. Hollow Ichigo will most likely return soon as he said that if Ichigo wanted to control his power then he should not die before he shows up again."' '? Part of it seems like speculation and he has appeared again in the most recent arc of the anime.

Sorry I have so many questions; any answers would be greatly appreciated! Arigato! -BlazingStar 02:17, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

1) Hollow Ichigo resides in Ichigo's inner world, that can be thought to be Ichigo's Conscience but "inner world" is probably a better understood concept in the Bleach verse.

2) He is antagonising the protagonist. Making him an antagonist. Anti-hero seems to be just more your point of view.

3) No because we don't fully understand the relationship between Hollow Ichigo and Zangetsu.

4) Hollow Ichigo is only inside Ichigo. He effects the outside world through Ichigo. Therefore, it is Ichigo who effects the Bleach Verse. Hollow Ichigo only effects Ichigo.

5) The change you are suggest is speculation. That sentence is directly from the manga and is not speculation. We know nothing about Ichigo's second Vizard from but Hollow Ichigo has not appeared in the manga yet and and last time we saw him, he was disappearing into the wind while saying "if you want to control my power, then don't die before I show up again". Tinni 02:38, November 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't "anti hero" the definition of an antagonist? -- Tha Reckoning  [[Image:TR.jpg|19px]] 02:58, November 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * No. Anti-heroes are heroes without heroic traits. Antagonists are characters, whether they be heroic or otherwise, who stand in opposition to the protagonist. Twocents 03:08, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

And to add to Tinni's fifth point: his appearance in an anime filler doesn't change manga canon. We can't delete or alter that sentence until something regarding him changes within the manga. Twocents 03:13, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

2nd Form Power
Should we add it or at least take note that the Hollow Mask with the Horns that Ichgo changed into wasn't even at 50% power since his suit wasn't at full Bankai,yet he was still able to easily dispatch Ulquiorra with what seemed to be easily even though Ulquiorra was in his 2nd release form, and owned Hollow Mask/Bankai Ichigo. Deathreaper 20:41, November 16,2009 (UTC)


 * NO, because A) its destroyed whenever he enters his hollow forms, and B) he was "dead" and had no power to control his hollow Fawcettp 08:24, November 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * My bad I ment to say Hollow Ichigo.2.)How is it destroyed that could simply be a 2nd release form like Ulquiorra's and it really seems to be.3.)Like I said I ment Hollow Ichgo because he was in control at the time. Deathreaper 18:29, November 17,2009 (UTC)

Since when is adding speculative information a option, this is what the policy and manuel of style pages are for so this line of questioning is unnecessary. The fact is we dont know what this form is, whether it is normal to the vizard or anything to that point, nor do we know just because of the most recent chapter what power level ichigo had as it was not brought up till recently why is there a point to addressing something having already taken place when that information is more pertinent to the upcoming story. In fact Fawcettp is right he barely had any of the coat on in the new form and on top of that you would have to be able to compare ulquiorra second release to someone of power other then ichigo. All we know is that ichigo was more powerful then him that doesn't state anything else about ichigo or hollow ichigo then that. We haven't seen Ulquiorra's power against anyone but ichigo. So the confrontation remains between those two. To list what you want there would have to be relevance to others in the series besides saying that he was more powerful then this one person who is supposedly powerful but we have no one to reference that power against besides the guy who beat him. Point being Shunsui killed starrk with just shikai so if Ichigo had to go bankai plus a 2nd hollow form how relevant is the information when it states more of ichigo's need to gain more power just to beat the 4th espada. Your basically pushing for speculative information to be placed in an article. Ulquiorra second release was unique to him, the necessity of it apparently is a plot device to further ichigo's power development, whatever ichigo's new form is we dont know but we cant state something like its common knowledge and say they may or are kind of alike or his power was here or there. The power level argument is for information following chapter 382. Salubri 00:53, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Salubri makes some good points but in recent chapters it was reveled that at less than half power without mask he is as strong as a captain (just with no control) so saying that, it would indicate that ulquiorra was stronger that the average captain (as ichigo had both full power and mask). and my earlier point was not that he had almost no coat on but that in effect he 'died' releasing any control/restraint he had over hollow ichigo, and that every time he is controlled by hollow ichigo that his coat is mostly destroyed just by his spiritual power Fawcettp 03:32, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

The general point being is that its largely speculative to put down unconfirmed and ambiguous information with information not related to the subject. (i.e. listing current information with a past situation that had no bearing on the information now). As stated the information that is in question is trying to state that Ichigo is some DBZ super powered character when the fact that he had to go to another level on a opponent where others fighting more powerful foes didn't have to says more about his weakness then his power level. We can talk to where blue in face about what we think he was but that doesn't make it so. We can talk about how someone is as powerful or stronger then an average captain (whatever that supposed to mean, seeing as captains are elite and the pinnacle of power) regardless of how much spiritual power ichigo has he is no captain. Also we cant stipulate that he died as we dont know that he obviously isn't dead, he had a fatal wound and probably should be dead but there is no confirmation of death thats more a personal observation then fact. Salubri 04:24, November 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * And still you haven't understood what ive said. I said and ment should we take a note that in his more evolved form that without being at 50% power he was able to quickly dispatch of Ulquiorra in his 2nd Released Form while that Ulquiorra dominated a Hollow/Bankai Ichigo at 50% Power.How is that speculation when its simply going over a past battle and observing at hwta happened.2nd Released Ulquiorra dominated a 50% Ichigo with Bankai and Hollow Mask, while when he turned into his more evovled form yes while not being in control that form had the power to dispatch of Ulquiorra easily without much effort while still not being at 50% giving testament to how strong he must really be when at Full Power.Not speculation at all simple observation of what happened and whats been said .Yes when usually Ichigo turns into a Hollow his clothes rip off but thtas only whne he turns into a complete Hollow Transformation not a mask .And this form showed much greater spirutal power and his clothes still didnt rip off. And also its it so mcuh as it rips off or is it just being covered up since when the shell breaks off his clothes are back or could they simply being doing that for censorship. Deathreaper 16:52, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that it is speculation. Ichigo's explanation only applied to his bankai in its normal state. What you propose brings in other variables, namely Ichigo's Hollow mask. He never gave any explanation about how the bankai robe relates to his Hollow form, if it does at all. As far as we've seen, Hollow Ichigo uses a completely different reserve of spiritual power. Mohrpheus 23:25, November 18, 2009 (UTC)