Forum:Vizard Species?

There apparently is some contention about whether the Vizard are a species all alone. Personally I think that they are in situations dealing with them there has been numerous occasions when they refer to themselves as separate from Shinigami all together. Maintaining that they are the opposite of the arrancar, which have long been considered a separate species from their original species of hollow. It only makes sense to allow them their distinction as they a are obviously not shinigami anymore (as they have gained a hollow mask via 'Hollowfication') then arrancar are hollow (as they have removed their mask via 'Shinigamification').Salubri 05:58, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Their affiliation really has nothing to do with their species. I believe Vizard and Arrancar are subspecies, rather than completely separate species. Ancient Chaos 06:04, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Ancient Chaos. Many of the Arrancar have called themselves Hollow, so it would be reasonable to presume the same for the Vizards. There's a difference between merely not wanting to affiliate yourself with a certain group and actually being an entirely different species. Twocents 06:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Well this goes back to my point all 5 (arrancar, vizard, shinigami, human, hollow) are presented as separate species in one form or another. It is commonly seen that the Vizard are capable of more then any shinigami as well as the arrancar are capable of doing more then any hollow and that in fact they each dont engage in what their respective former lives would entail. The point i think im making is either subspecies or species they are no longer truly what they once were.Salubri 06:32, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

What constitutes a new species is not as clear in bleach. Most would consider Humans, Shinigami and Hollows to be the main three species and everything else a sub-species of it, however even this three would fall under a sub-species category. By going thru the process we can get a closer view to them.
 * A soul that is incarnated becomes a Human.
 * When a Human dies it becomes a Plus
 * A Plus may be sent to Soul Society, become a Hollow or be devoured by one
 * If the soul goes to Soul Society and develops spiritual power it may attempt to become a Shinigami. If not it will simply live and die and start the process again.
 * If the soul becomes a Shinigami it may gain Hollow powers and become a Vizard.


 * If the plus becomes a Hollow it may evolve into a Menos and continue is evolution.
 * At any point during is evolution it may gain Shinigami-like powers and become an Arrancar.

So in short the core of everything is a Soul, and it just goes thru changes. If we consider anything in between to be a new species than by all means the final product would also be consider a new species. WhiteStrike 00:35, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

At the base core of everything...theres a human soul. From that standpoint, they're all still humans. Except perhaps Hollow who could be considered part of a human soul, since what made them a human is gone, thus resulting in their transformation to a hollow in the first place. Until they put the mask on, a visored is still a shinigami, the way Urahara talks though and from what i've seen, all Vice Captain's or Captains seem to have an inner hollow that can be "awakened" via hollowfication. Perhaps one should submit whether or not a visored is still a human in his view to Kubo, along with the whole Vizard/Visored Shinigami/Soul Reaper thing. :D --Licourtrix 09:46, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about Humans dont inter into the equation seeing as they are living, this is about the souls, while it stands that Vizards can be considered a sub-division of shinigami as that is the base they originally come from, but they do not consider themselves shinigami. They stop being human after they die, if you notice when something becomes a soul/shinigami/arrancar they speak of humans as entirely separate beings at this level no one is human unless your alive. Hollows become hollows due to its soul becoming empty because of its circumstances of lose. I would also really like to see what manga your reading cause Urahara never hints at anything like that at all. Also im not sure if your new to the site but we have no contact with Kubo so we can't submit anything.Salubri 16:07, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Aren't you a feisty one. Let me put it this way. You can speak of something as if its entirely different, from you, but that doesn't make it so. As Ancient Chaos and Twocents stated, it seems like Arrancar and Visored, are more like subspecies of Hollow and Shinigami respectively. With the exception of hollows, who lose their "heart". The very core of what a shinigami is is a human soul, that has passed on to soul society and had, or developped spiritual powers. In my opinion just because they're dead they're still the soul of a human. diagram explaining what i mean.Thus making shinigami a subspecies of humans. I've been reading Bleach, and watching the anime, same as you. I didn't think you did have contact with Kubo, most especially not the wiki anyway as he tends to avoid online groupings of his fans. However, certain fansites occasionally have a Q&A session with him which use questions submitted by fans....I'm sure with alittle googling for "Bleach Fansite" you could find them...This will be the last time I answer about this, as anything else would simply be a re-hash of whats already been said.--Licourtrix 11:51, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Wow I could have swore I brought up the fact that they may very well be a subspecies of shinigami. Your entitled to your opinion but there is 371 chapters of manga that state multiple times that shinigami are no longer human nor consider themselves as one, seeing a humans are alive and shinigami arent, that makes no sense a soul cant be a subspecies of human as to be considered so they would have to make up of the same material humans (atoms) and souls (reishi) arent.Salubri 14:40, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Theres nothing here to resolve. Suffice it to say discussion has ended at a stalemate any thing said here would probably be considered original research either way since its never really discussed in the anime/manga, and in the future I'll appreciate if you don't remove my posts simply cause they make you look bad. If you don't wanna look bad, take second to look over what you've said. --Licourtrix 00:11, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

Take into account you make yourself look bad when you talk about things that have no bearing in the content of the series as if it were facts. Next time you decide to argue with someone back it up with some actual material so you don't look ridiculous and i would also suggest you dont get personal with me when making your comments cause you dont want me to go there with you.Salubri 00:56, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

Oh spare me your lame threats. In my opinion (which I value greatly) it does have some bearing on the series. If I have to quote specific examples from the show however as to how a soul is still human without its body it'd waste time with obvious things. As Urahara stated in Memories of Nobody the souls go from the world of the living, to soul society, in a continuous loop. They're human when they're alive but somehow dying they're not? pfft. Also if Orihime's brother wasn't still human somehow when he died he wouldn't have stopped himself from attacking her and killing her. There is nothing in the show to suggest a human soul seperated from the body isn't still human. Furthermore since Hollows can be purified and the soul go to Soul Society to be reborn, the original soul must still be there thus the hollow isn't much different than the souls in soul society that can go on to become Soul Reapers. I see your spelling has improved, now I'd work on punctuation.--Licourtrix 00:17, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

After having read this discussion it's become apparent that Licourtix despite the personal attacks on actual contributers you seem to know little of bleach quoting information from a non-canon source like a movie. There's alot of suggestions in Bleach and while your entitled to your opinion it would better be served on the forum where you can speculate all you want. On the talk pages it about content and maintenance as the guidelines for the site suggest and the conversation prior to your interjection consisted of information based on manga information not non-canon source such as other media like the movies. I think that was the point being reached. Before you interject into peoples conversations please know what your talking about. Anyone and everyone who knows of bleach knows on far numerous cases of humans being listed as entirely separate from Shinigami, Vizard, Hollows, and Arrancar. So no the definition of human does not apply to a soul, is it a human soul yes but it has become something else all together at that stage, maybe upon reincarnation they are human again in those terms but not until attaining a actual body.Ninjaman56 01:01, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

A human soul separated from its body is indeed still considered "human" to a degree, but Bleach refers them as "Pluses," as you already know. Like Licourtix said, some degree of a Plus has to remain within Shinigami and Hollows. A Hollow is simply a Plus whose soul is corrupted, while a Shinigami is a soul that has gained Shinigami powers (well, duh). This is slightly complicated by the implications that children can be born within the Soul Society (as Shinigami?), hence the clan bloodlines. A Hollow is, to a degree, human when you take into consideration their origins as a Plus, and the fact that they can be reverted into such. Just the same, a Shinigami that loses their powers become human, as was the case with Isshin and almost Rukia. If you take this into account, their spiritual powers are all that truly determine their race - if they are lost, they become nothing more than a human (or Plus, the distinction of whether or not they are returned to the Human World alive is unclear). The point being, because any species can become human again one way or the other, the idea that each race holds some "human" in them makes sense (with the exception of Menos and Menos Arrancar, who would ideally become many individuals upon purification, unless the consumed souls were lost forever). Some repeated info there, but that's the way that I understand things. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism would be much appreciated. Can't come to a consensus otherwise. Mohrpheus 01:14, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Exactly my point it's only considered so to the degree that the soul comes from a human, but as you have stated in bleach its not portrayed as being a human being at that point. Least we recall how the vizards have addressed humans and how shinigami refer them as something lesser. I think the point stands they are never considered as such in the series the way that Licourtix is portraying them. No one questions whether they come from humans but to say they are the same is off, a hollow isnt human anymore then its a shinigami. Yes spiritual power defines them as a race but does it make them less of one because the lines between being one state and reverting to another state are thin. Least we forget in the series a human is basically defined as being alive and made up of atoms, souls (shinigami or hollow) are no longer living as well they are made of reishi. Its the same concept a human is neither the same as a demon and angel, regardless of one can ascend or descend to those forms. Yea sure Mentally -spiritually to some degree they are still human but does that make them human, because we perceive them as such according to are own parameters because apparently the series doesn't focus to much on that and is more often made the concept of human entirely separate from the other races.Ninjaman56 01:35, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

unless you're salubri on another account you haven't made that point, just agreed with it. I admitted earlier, its not discussed to any detail in the series. as for saying any and all of my arguements are based off non-canon material you're fishing for straws as thats the only non-canon thing i've referenced and i'm pretty sure Rukia made a similar lecture to Ichigo after giving him her powers. Where exactly in the series do they say "a human is defined by being made of atoms"? You're again stating something that goes off the bias portrayed in the show, how vizards and shinigami think of humans. As seen when Rukia first meets Ichigo the soul reapers are EXTREMELY biased against humans. Just because they say they're a lesser being doesn't mean it, similarly just as Hitler said Jews were a lesser being didn't mean it was so.--Licourtrix 01:43, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as this conversation originally was based on actual information questioning a article on content it since has become nothing along those lines, therefore it is now available here. Also your way off base. First in foremost just because people may agree with me rather then you gives you no right to start confrontations, if your gonna continue to do so it will be considered a problem. Secondly Movies are widely considered non-canon thats known to everyone. Though im not sure he worded it correctly, it is true that humans and Souls (shinigami/hollows/vizard/arrancar) are made up of two separate types of building blocks. Souls are made up of reishi (spirit particles) and humans and other living matter is made of kishi (atoms). Chapter 70, page 7-8. The entire point is being missed on this site we go by what's in the series what is read or seen, not by the personal opinions of the material thats what forums are for, speculate and discuss your personal feelings about the case all you want now.Salubri 02:22, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

-- Chapter 70, pages 7-8 do talk about human bodies being made up of kishi but it never addresses if the composition of a human soul is reishi or Kishi. Fact of the matter is they talk about a living human soul seperated from its body as being unable to cross over into the soul society because of its Chain of Fate...not because the soul is supposedly made of kishi. In order to cross over they have to convert the kishi component (the material body) into a reishi component so the Chain of Fate no longer acts as a drag on the soul. But its highly speculative to suggest this means that the living human soul is also made of kishi like its material body.

Maybe there is a chapter that clears this up decisivly but Chapter 70 ain't it. Great Cthulhu 03:24, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Who said the human soul was made of kishi, the human body is though. The point being made is humans don't regularly separate their soul from their bodies, and the two are made up of two separate components. Souls of made up reishi. Hence the significant difference between the two humans and spirits, that is one component missing from soul based races kishi, even if a human has a soul made of reishi they still have something very significant that makes them world apart from spiritual beings. That goes with being alive and having the chain of fate. But i never said anything of the humans soul. I was referring to what the two (humans and souls) are made of, nothing more.Salubri 03:44, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

-- I see...sorry if I misunderstood.

Anyway...the concept of 'races' or 'species' as applied to Bleach is a bit ridiculous. Its a convenient shorthand to help describe the differences but it can't be taken too literally. Neither the Hollows, Shinigami, or Pluses are truly seperate groups...they all lead back to the same source...the human soul. Every soul goes through the same cycle of death and spiritual evolution. A shinigami who dies fighting hollows one day becomes a human (who happens to be a Quincy) who then dies and experiences a trauma that turns him into a hollow. The hollow gets purified, ends up in Soul Society as a Plus, gets reborn, and repeats the whole cycle all over again within these same variations. No races...just a soul going through the same spiritual evolution & regression that all souls go through. Great Cthulhu 04:03, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Thats assuming that being a hollow is part of natural progression of the cycle, which it can't be its just a consequence of negative emotion. If a hollow is never purified they are never returned to the cycle the same for the souls they consume. Also shinigami who die fighting hollows dont become quincy so im not sure where you came up with that. The point is the series makes these cases of races, all shinigami are souls but not all souls are shinigami. All qunicy are humans but not all humans are qunicy (as there are only 2 now, but you get the point). All arrancar were originally hollows but now all hollows are arrancar and so on. The spiritual beings come from souls (pluses) and qunicy come from humans. But its not simple enough that its just a group you can go and join significant change has to take place making you something else.Salubri 04:15, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

--- 1. "Thats assuming that being a hollow is part of natural progression of the cycle, which it can't be its just a consequence of negative emotion."

Negative emotions are natural to humans (and human souls). Depending on the Plus' emotional state a Shinigami has an excellent chance of predicting when or if he will turn into a Hollow. The Hollow state is not imposed by an outside force but depends totally on the Plus, can be reliably predicted, and is a relatively common occurence among Plus souls.

Its not a GOOD thing to have happen but it is a natural path for souls suffering trauma.

2. "If a hollow is never purified they are never returned to the cycle the same for the souls they consume."

But if they ARE purified than they most certainly do return to the cycle. Thats part and parcel of being a shinigami...to protect human souls and return Hollows where able to the cycle. The Shinigami are a natural balancing act to Hollows.

3. "Also shinigami who die fighting hollows dont become quincy so im not sure where you came up with that."

I didn't. That was all you. I just suggested that a Quincy might be one possible incarnation of a slain Soul Reaper in my example. It wasn't meant to be taken so literally.

4. "The point is the series makes these cases of races, all shinigami are souls but not all souls are shinigami. All qunicy are humans but not all humans are qunicy (as there are only 2 now, but you get the point). All arrancar were originally hollows but now all hollows are arrancar and so on. The spiritual beings come from souls (pluses) and qunicy come from humans. But its not simple enough that its just a group you can go and join significant change has to take place making you something else."

None of which answers my point that every soul, given the chance, will eventually move onto another state no matter if its a Shinigmai, human being, Plus, Hollow, arrancor, or Vizard. None of these states is inherently permanent and inalterable. Sometimes its just hating yourself, sometimes its natural talent and training, sometimes its tearing your mask off, and sometimes it requires death or purification...but they all can be changed through a transformative process into another soul state. Every soul does this as a matter of course.

Which is why the use of the word species or race is inaccurate. Its really just an easy way to label groups of human souls who all currently share the same traits but will eventually move onto another state. But that doesn't stop them from being, at base, human souls and the sole source of all of these shinigami, hollows, etc. Great Cthulhu 05:16, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Ok im guessing are issue is i deal in Information from the series and your doing more speculative conversation. This makes it unlikely we will see eye to eye on anything seeing as everything you'll put up i have to refer back to the series. I don't do much speculating and when i do it's from the information given. So ill just leave the discussion of a possible deeper meaning to you.Salubri 06:01, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

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It's not the facts that are in dispute. Its the INTERPRETATION of those facts which has us debating this. Nothing we decide here will really alter anything...its counting angels on the head of a pin. Oh well...thats what the Watercooler is for. Great Cthulhu 07:50, September 9, 2009 (UTC)