Forum:Deceased vs unconfirmed

Ok I for one am really, really sick of having to revert people's edits to the status of Grimmjow, Loly and Menoly. Last we saw Gimmjow he was breathing. He might have stopped breathing since but we don't know that. Until we get confirmation he is alive. On Loly and Menoly, they did in fact appear in volume sketchs for volume 39. Ishida saved Menoly from falling by pinning her to the wall by the seat of her pants and Loly, as far as I know, was just brushed aside by Yammy. Those two are most definitely not dead yet! Dordonii Alessandro Del Socacchio, Cirucci Thunderwitch and Rudobōn are probably dead but frankly I don't care about the arrancar enough to insist one way or the other. So enough with the changing status. If you feel strongly that they are dead, make your case here and we'll consider changing. But no more just editing. I honestly have better things to do (see Forum:Volume_a_week_club) then continuously revert premature changes. Tinni 17:05, October 26, 2009 (UTC)

I posted the following on the Espadas talk:page, but no one answered so I moved it here.

We all know Gantenbainne is alive, but can't we say Dordonii & Circucci are deceased. There deaths were pretty well shown. There is no reason to say presumably, because the deaths of both the third & first Espadas weren't confirmed any more then theres was.

These two are the only one I feel should be change. Grimmjow, Menoly, Loly, & Rudobon in my opinion are fine the way they are. So, can I get any reasons why Circucci & Dordoni have to stay presumably deceased? Minato88 19:38, October 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * It was heavily implied that Ciriucci & Dordonii were killed by the Exequias, so it is likely that they are indeed dead. I'd agree with that. But before anyone goes changing the article, I would like to know if there is anyone who can make an argument that they are still alive, or what reason there is for doubting their deaths? I'm sure there was a valid reason why it has been left as unconfirmed for all this time. --Yyp 19:45, October 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * Naw, I doubt there is, unless, as I mentioned before (except is was with Starrk and Harribel), they turn up later alive, or if someone shows up and declares them to be alive. Arrancar109 19:53, October 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * These are some very good questions. While it is true that the last we saw of these people: Coyote Starrk, Lilynette Gingerback, Tia Hallibel, Apache, Mila-Rose, Sun-Sun, Grimmjow Jaegerjaquez, Tesla, Rudobone, Cirucci Sanderwicci, and Dordonii Alessandro Del Socacchio, Menoly, and Loly; they were either unconscious, or still alive, but their pages either list them as unconfirmed or Deceased.

My opinion is how are we to know if Starrk/Lilynette and Hallibel are deceased, if the last time we saw them, they were jsut falling out of the sky. They could be unconscious, and for one, we never saw their bodies hit the ground. So, they should be unconfirmed. Grimmjow, we all know is alive. The last time he was seen, he was being protected by Ichigo. Still breathing.

Menoly and Loly, although some people think they are dead, Yammy did not kill them. Like someone said, Menoly was resting against Uryû's legs, and Loly was unconscious with Yasutora.

Tesla, the last we saw him, he was laying o9n the ground, crying over Nnoitra's death. So yeah, he's alive.

Rudôbone, nobody cares.

Apache, Mila-Rose, and Sun-Sun, Yamamoto even said he did not attack them with enough force to kill them, and just because Hallibel states that they are dead (and I'm not saying anything bad about Hallibel, cause I LOVE her), Uh, HELLO! Is she a doctor? I think not. They are still unconscious, as the others are and have yet to wake back up/come out of their comas.

Dordonii and Cirucci, they were executed by Rudôbone. End of story. I mean, come in! In one episode, you can see shadowy figures of their bodies hanging from Szayel Aporro's ceiling! Nobody else is killed before this! And Szayel Aporro WAS the one who dispatched the Exequias!

I think I have made my point!

Kiran.

sigh Once again, Apache, mila-rose and sun-sun were confirmed to be dead by Ichimaru Gin during the Arrancar Encyclopedia segement at the end of episode 231. His exact words were "They can't rest in peace unless we do this". I don't know about you, but I have never heard the term rest in peace being applied to living character. If the anime called time of death, we can follow suit. As for Starrk and Harribel, show me something that is not wishful thinking and I will entertain the notion that they are alive. However, reading the manga objectively makes it very clear that those to are dead and finished. I agree, however, that Dordonii and Cirucci should be listed as deceased. Tinni 09:08, October 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Thankyou for agreeing with me about Cirucci and Dordonii, and I can agree with you on the Fraccion part, but asd for Hallibel and Starrk, where does it say that they are actually deceased? Sure, we see them falling out of the sky, but how does that say that they are for sure dead?

And what about Tesla, Menoly and Loly?

Kiran.

Last time we saw Tesla he was crying because Nnoitra just died, i.e. he was very much alive. He might have died since then but we can't be sure. I have mentioned this already but I'll repeat, Menoly has been shown in the volume sketches for volume 39, she was saved from falling by Ishida. Who pinned her to the wall with an arrow. Loly was just brushed aside by Yammy. We don't even know how severely she was injured. As such their status is clearly "unconfirmed" but most likely alive but injured. Starrk wasn't just about falling from the sky, he fell from the sky after receiving a sever injury to his hollow hole AND having a dramatic end of life flashback. He is dead as dead can be. Even his words as he fell showed clearly that he knew his life was coming to an end. Harribel was stabbed twice by Aizen and the second time wasn't just a "stab through the shoulder" he stabbed through the shoulders and slashed to such an extent that there was blood splatter consistent with a sever slash. The higher quality scans for Maximum7 showed this clearly and Mashiro Kuno said she was dead. We will take the word of a in-manga character unless we have compelling reason to doubt them. We do not in this case. Harribel and Starrk are dead and their status is not up for debate. Any further discussion on their status will have to happen on the forum topic on this issue Forum:Starrk_and_Harribel. Tinni 13:04, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * On top of what Tinni just said, it is clear from the scans that Starrk's body is beginning to disintegrate. His clothes are falling apart & mask remains are completely shattered (from an attack that didn't go near his head, or injure his face in any way). --Yyp 13:31, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Like I said, I could care lessa bout Starrk/Lilynette... what I am focusing on is Hallibel and the fact that she is not dead!

Insisting she is alive isn't going to get her status changed unless you can show some compelling proof from the manga. In addition, like I said, her status is not up for discussion without further proof/development. Any further discussion on this topic will have to happen in the forums. Tinni 13:56, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, hey you, you! Yes, you! Stop that.

Oh, and until you can show me substantial evidence that she is dead dead dead stone cold dead, then i shall refuse to believe it!

Let's stop beating around the bush here. The chances of either of those two to be alive is zero. It was heavily implied that they were killed by Exequias and it's been a long time since either of them were even mentioned. In addition, while going through the past chapters to find a reference, I noticed this panel http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/0/255/9. I don't think Apollo is the kind of person who would be doing an "extraction" in a manner that will keep Dordonii alive. So let's just drop this "presumbaly" business and called them deceased and change all pages that refer to them to deceased. When there really is a chance that the character may be alive, (e.g. Tesla, who we last saw severely injured and crying over Nnoitra but alive) I am all for them being listed as unconfirmed. But this case there is no chance and we should just stop pussy footing around the issue and just add the (Deceased) next to their name. Tinni 09:08, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, I just remembered that Aporro also said that he extracted Ishida's reitsu from Thunderwitch. So I am going to go ahead and changed them to deceased. This is "presumebly" and "unconfirmed" business has gone on long enough. Tinni 09:13, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Found the Thunderwitch reference http://www.mangatoshokan.com/read/bleach/0/273/19. Aporro actually says she's dead. So it's settled. Tinni 09:24, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

Moved here from Talk:List_of_Arrancar just because it became long and bloated and more of a discussion about the status of various arrancar as opposed to what I originally created it, which was to tell people to stop messing with their statuses! Lastly, on the topic of Thunderwitch and Dordonii. I did go and track down the references for their death and they have now been listed as deceased. Above is the reasoning I listed in the Espada talk page, copied here for the sake of completeness. Tinni 14:47, October 30, 2009 (UTC)