Forum:Replacement captains............

Here, you can discuss your ideas for who will fill the 3 vacant captain positions in the Gotei 13.

Replacement captains...
Wouldn't it be a good idea if captain or lietenant class Rooyal guards took over the vacant spots left by Aizen and co, When the dust settles. Currently their are People to fill the some of the roles but there are reasons they can't. No bankai and even if they did they wouldn't want the position for whatever reason, someone want to die fighting under their captain and some wanting to surpass the current catain. If royal guard shinigami took over they we would see royal guard fighting levels which might make their subordinates come up a few levels and even inspire others from other squads. We would see royal guard shikai's not that they are different but they are different as in new unseen, new bankai's, we might get to know the reasons behind why royal guard shinigami are given the position to protect the king what makes them so special, new stories could be introduced involving their own personal conflicts, it might even bring in flash backs the past history of the Kings dimension and fill in the gaps shedding light on certain questions like ichigo's growth rate why is he developing so fast, and the different classes of bankai's speed, power, elemental, kido etc, were there any vizards b4 shinji and co i don't think it was just an idea someone came up with there has to be more to it like how myths and legends are based on truth maybe i'm reading to deeply into it. add ur thoughts Anakin69 08:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC) -->

You got the vizard, Ichigo, Urahara, Yoroichi, and Isshin as well. You have more candiates than you give credit for.Saimaroimaru 02:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Royal Guards would never step down. Who would take a promotion (one based on secrecy and more important then being Gotei 13). Even in the Gotei 13 members don't step down positions the whole point is to get promoted. We have to have a better reason then people wanting to see them. Im sure somewhere in the series they may have roles in an arc and you may not learn all the stuff you know about other captains but at least you'll get to see them. Besides we need to see more on the captain's we know already, too many haven't shown their skills, history or even their bankai. No there were no vizards before shinji and company. It was an idea that never came to pass, until urahara's time. It's speculative to say otherwise. Vizard aren't shinigami nor do they want anything to do with the shinigami or the Gotei 13 so they are out of the equation. Ichigo wouldn't meet the requirements nor does he follow orders or command others. Plus he is technically a vizard and human. No one is sure what isshin's history is as a shinigami he may not be eligible or even want to after all he has a family his daughters are human. As well he has to take no orders from anyone. Urahara and Yorucihi may not want to besides if they did it would have to be in their previous positions. Yoruichi is trained as a assaasin and her family is traditionally head of the secret mobile force (though not currently). Urahara is a scientist thus he would have to have the 12th division and the research and development department he created back. Last checked both positions are filled. So then were back to square one. with no one to take the positons, not counting new people put up for consideration like in the amagi arc.Salubri 03:15, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it's gonna stay as is. Like salubri said, many have bankai but 0% of them want the spot or would be consider for it in the first place. Vizards, Ichigo, Yoruichi, Urahara are out of the question. Renji is too young and Ikkaku doesn't want to. Even if the current 2nd seats reach bankai, they'll just be in Renji's position.. unless it's Kira and Hisagi and we suddently get a 20yrs junp into the future. Then we could expect the 2 to have received promotions to captains of their divisions. But I don't think we would ever see that, since the main character is a human and all... big jumps in time like that would pose no difference for a shinigami but for a human.. well, unless they'd be willing to make a Bleach Shippudden or something.. hehe Deimonos 11:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The Gotei 13 pretty much follows the normal procedure for promotion as any military unit; generally one is either promoted within the unit or promoted to take a seat in another unit. E.G. Renji being 6th seat (11th) before becoming 6th's Lt., Aizen as the 5th's Lt. before becoming it's Capt., Gin being the 5th's Lt. before becoming the 3rd's Capt., Iba previously in the 11th before becoming the 9th's Lt., etc. Its unlikely to promote anyone who falls outside this organization: vizards are technically "criminals" and Urahara, Tessai, and Yoruichi are in exile. Ichigo is a human thereforeSpacedone 05:51, 18 July 2009 (UTC) unlikely to be made a captain, Renji still has to master his bankai, and Ikkaku wants to remain under Zaraki's command.

The only replacement I could see in the near future would be Hisagi taking over Squad Nine after achieving or demonstrating bankai. Since he hates his shikai so much, it could be that he has it and doesn't use it, or could be capable of achieving it but having not tried yet. At any rate, while Renji is young and has only been a lieutenant for two months when the series starts, Shuuhei was only a little younger than Byakuya and about Gin's age during the TBTP arc. He's got a better chance than anyone to take one of the replacement positions, even though it's just as likely that they'll all stay open for a while. QuoteRadar 22:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Good point. Well, Matsumoto is as old as Hisagi and Gin but since Haineko is as lazy as she is, I guess we won't be seing her achieving bankai anytime soon. Now about Hisagi, I agree, he's by far the closest one I could imagine replacing a captain but unless he likes do go old-school like Ikkaku and take a beating instead of using his bankai.. I think he still has a lot to improve til then.. Deimonos 17:49, 2 July 2009

-- Considering the Central 46 was utterly destroyed in the war against Aizen all of their powers and responsibilities have become Captain-General Yammamoto's, if I'm not mistaken. If this is so the Captain-General can certainly pardon criminals as well as condemn them. This means that if the Vizards and Urahara and his crew impress the old man enough with their actions in the fight against Aizen he may allow them back into Shinigami society with their honor restored. This would be the smart thing to do since it brings capable Captains and leuatenants back into service when the Gotei 13 need them most.

The Vizards are bitter about being exiled. But if given the chance to have their honor restored they strike me as the kind of people who would take it. They obviously don't consider their current status as better than when they were shinigami.

This is speculative of course. But its equally speculative to say that the Gotei 13 will never ever accept the Vizards or Urahara back into their good graces when there are good reasons to do the opposite. The end of the story hasn't been written yet! Great Cthulhu 19:47, November 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * My wild speculation regarding Urahara Kisuke is that he is already part of Squad Zero XD. Tinni 05:12, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

-- That would be a clever turn of events IMO on Tito Kubo's part. Having a Division Zero agent involved would show that the Soul King isn't totally disinterested and useless in the war against Aizen. Great Cthulhu 05:34, November 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * this sounds good..but the problem is, there are too many of them...--WinterFox 02:34, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

-- Even if every one of them was pardoned by the Captain-General it doesn't mean they automatically get their old positions back. Some of them might die in the war with Aizen, some wouldn't care to re-join the Gotei 13 (pardoned or not), others might agree to go onto different positions or reductions in rank for the good of the Gotei 13. They could even form their own detachment as a permanent roving shinigami squad in the material world. There is actually a lot of things the Captain-General could do to make use of the Vizard's talents beyond just plugging up holes in the ranks.

It remains to be seen what the Gotei 13 will do with the Vizards after the war. At times the Gotei 13 are blindingly hidebound and resistant to change. At others (like the creation of the Research and Development Institute) they can take the initiative in innovative ways. Great Cthulhu 02:58, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

I highly doubt that Kisuke is part of the zero division. Speaking of Kisuke; I wonder what he, Tessai, Yoruichi, Isshin, and Ryuuken are doing.. Anyway about the replacements; it would be wise if Genryusai took all of them back to work in SS.--Captain Brooks 18:14, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

-- Yeah...I agree that its very unlikely that Kisuke is an operative of the Zero Division. But Tinni's speculation that he might be is an interesting idea and actually a good way to introduce the Zero Div without the disruption of a whole new cast of characters. Anyway...

I've been wondering the same thing about Kisuke and company. Where are they? What are they doing? Heh...whatever it is I'm sure it will be critical to achieving victory at Fake Karakura Town.

The Captain-General is a wild card. Sure...it would be the WISE thing to bring the Vizards back into the fold. But it also runs up against the tradition & law of which Genryusai is the representative of. Since his talk with Shinji though you could see the wheels turning in his head. He is thinking about the Vizards and who they are. Great Cthulhu 18:51, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Renji a Captain?
I am watching the new filler arc and it shows Renji and Bayakuya dueling. Do you think he was taking the captians exam. I mean there was 2 other captains there to watch as well as renji showing his bankia to others in soul society. I think he was taking the exam but the exam wasnt completed what do you all think.Tealang99 17:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

For the test the Sotaicho has to be present so it was most likely Byakuya helping him train his bbankai and the others were just watching.WhiteStrike 18:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I think he was just training with his captain. To assume otherwise is a bit of a leap. Twocents 18:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I can understand that but shouldnt his status change anyway just by achieving his bankai and revealing it. I mean thats the reason Ikkaku been hiding because he said they would promote him out of Squad 11 if he revealed his bankia to the others.Tealang99 18:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No, Ikkaku is worried about being promoted out, but there's no guarantee that he would be. As Iba told him, he's not on the same level as his captain, even though he does have Bankai. Plus, Renji has not hidden the fact that he has Bankai from other members of the Gotei 13, so there's no reason to assume that this was a new sight for them. Plus, there's no indication that it was anything beyond a training session, which is demonstrated from the way Byakuya dismissed him at the end of it. To call him a Captain, when no one's even said the words, is a leap that no one could logically make. Twocents 19:02, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

No one called him a Captain. I said he may have been taking the exam. I see your point but dont say its a leap. There are some captain spots that need to be filled and out all the LTs that have been shown so for Renji and Ikkaku have the best chance of filling those spots that why I asked for opinions.Tealang99 19:35, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Least it be forgotten that this is a filler arc even if that were true it didn't happen in the manga so it wont count as concrete similar to amagai becoming captain it lasted for an arc and then that was it. If anyone becomes a captain it has to take place in the manga first and foremost. Renji is a lt, Ikkaku is a 3rd seat but besides that like twocents mentioned it is a leap, it takes more then knowing bankai to make a captain. Byakuya explains it to renji during their fight in the soul society arc. Renji and Ikkaku are good and power wise they rival a captain but they have a long time to go before they get there.Salubri 19:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Nonetheless, it was good to see Renji keeping up with Byakuya, even though it was clear that he wasn't giving his 100% there. He's improved a lot, like Ichigo and the others. Deimonos 19:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

He has improved alot over the time at the beginning of the anime/manga but to be honest he doesn't have that "Captain Mentality." Such as his personality its still a little immature if you will. And all of the captains have that "heir" about them. The only lieutenant that has a captain mentality to me is Hisagi.Heruga59 08:31, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Hisagi Shuuhei
i know it's a bit off topic but who do you think would be hisagi's Lieutenant if he were to become captain of his division?Soul reaper magnum 23:55, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Probably some guy/girl we have never seen before. Minato88 13:39, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

ya, i guess. just thought i'd put the idea out there.Soul reaper magnum 15:55, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

i'v been thinking about it for awhile and for all we know after the war some of the lieutenants might get promoted to the empty captain seats. and i'm not sure about the rest but shuhei at least is definitely captain material.Soul reaper magnum 14:54, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

Why Shuhei? He hasn't shown anything impressive. Sure, he beat Findor, who told to be on capatain level, with quite ease, but well, Findor was presumably blufffing as his powers weren't even near captain-like. Afterwards Shuhei gets owned by Allon. I would not rate him captain-class until we have seen him doing a good job against Tosen.--Suzumushi 15:05, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

There are signs about that Hisagi is "different" from Hinamori and Kira. Due of the lack of captains, Hisagi, Hinamori and Kira are both  in-charge of their respective divisions. However, only Hisagi has ever been referred to as an "acting captain". An acting captain is not a rank and it can be said that all three are acting captains. But Hisagi is the only one who has been referred to as such. In addition, as we speak, he is the only Lieutenant currently still attempting to fight. Therefore it is not out of the realm of possibility that Kubo has some grand plan for Hisagi. IF that grand plan ends with revelation that Hisagi has bankai then Hisagi becoming a captain becomes more of a formality as he already has the leadership qualities, the administrative skills, not to mention the experience as a Vice-captain to qualify him for the role. This is very different from the other two known candidates for Captain. Renji has been a Vice-captain less longer then Ichigo has been a shinigami and before that he was a seated officer of the sixth, hardly a squad that teaches you the necessary skills to make you a successful captain in any other squad but the 11th. Ikkaku is Kenpachi minus everything that makes Kenpachi a great captain and probably doesn't want to be a captain because he knows he would fail miserably. So yeah, if Hisagi has bankai then he would be a great captain of the 9th. Tinni 15:27, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

thank you tinni, that's exactly what i was getting at. like you said he certainly has the skill for it. and he'd probably have a devastating bankai to.Soul reaper magnum 15:52, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

He don't get along with his Zanpakutoh, so he can't have a Bankai. And why exactly does he have the skill for it? He got owned by Allon, and could you expect any of the current captains to get owned by that mindless creature? He's still far away from captain-class. Despite of this, Kira is able to fight too and most likely will do so when Unohana arrives and takes over the healing. From all we have seen, his overall skills are better than Shuheis as he is cabable of casting strong Kido, is skilled in healing and swordmanship. Out of all the three acting-captains, i think he has the highest chance to have a bankai.--Suzumushi 16:39, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

ya, kira could become captain to. but i was focusing on Hisagi so that's why i didn't really think of him. and what i meant about skill is that if he were to become captain he'd be able to handle it compared to ikkaku or renji.Soul reaper magnum 17:30, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

Apart from one line about not liking the shape of his Shikai, there is no manga evidence that Hisagi has a complex with his Zanpakuto that is any worse then other peoples. He isn't trying to hide it like Yumichika and he doesn't think it's a selfish, lazy, fickle and stupid like Matsumoto does. He doesn't wish it was fancy with elemental powers like Omaeda does. The anime has made a mountain out of a molehill but what I remember most from that chapter is how freaked out Findor got once Hisagi pointed out the shape of Kazeshini looks like the blades of a reaper. However, I was not referring to his power alone. I said that if Hisagi had Bankai, then he probably has more non-fighting related skills to make a good captain. I mean, we don't know the exact mechanics behind the Captain's Proficiency exam but it is reasonable to assume that its not just a matter of having bankai/being powerful. They already have a system to become captain based on raw power alone, it's the "kill the old captain in front of 200 witnesses" method. The second, "get recommended by x captains" method is probably a way to become captain when there is a vacant position without bankai and without being uber powerful. I imagine the third and the most frequently used method, the captain's proficiency test, is just that the "captain's proficiency test" that probably has multiple criteria includes "has bankai", "is leadership material", "knows the rules and laws of soul society", "is of good character" etc, etc. You know, the stand sort of thing that you have in a situation like this. I am merely suggesting that Hisagi would probably tick more boxes in that criteria then most other people and so should he have bankai/achieve bankai then he'll pretty much be a shoo-in. Tinni 05:10, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

The third way to become a captain is to defeat that squads previous captain. So if Hisagi were to be the one to deliver the finishing blow to Tosen he may be awarded the position of captain of the 9th division regardless of whether or not he has a Bankai. And yes I know that technically it has to be in front of 200 witnesses but if Hisagi were to defeat Tosen in front of every current captain I think that would make up for the lack of 200 witnesses. Hirako the Hollow 06:20, November 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I don't think it works like that. See each Gotei 13 Divisions has about 200 members (according to Bleach Book of SOULs). So the point of the "kill a captain before 200 witnesses" doesn't mean kill the captain before 200 random witnesses but more kill the old captain before the 200 squad members. The purpose/message is of course simple enough, "Your former Captain couldn't even protect himself, how can he protect you. Follow me and I'll protect you!" Which would be the only way to get the squad members to go along with the new captain. Because unless the Captain was a total recluse, most squads would be fairly attached to their captain and so a random interloper who just walks in and kills the captain is unlikely to get the loyalty of squad members. But if the squad members witnesses the power of the new Captain... well they would still be angry, hurt, devastated but perhaps more willing to accept the new guy. I hope that makes sense... Tinni 10:20, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

I was aware of the fact that it needed to be 200 squad members I must've forgot to include that. Again my previous entry was just speculation, seeing if I could create a reason why Hisagi could become a captain if has yet to achieve Bankai. Hirako the Hollow 13:09, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

The Captain's Proficiency Exam is presided over by the Head-Captain and 3 other captains. The captain-to-be must prove mastery of Bankai, as well as a high level of ability in Kido, HoHo (Flash Step), and they must prove their skills in Zanjustsu (swordsmanship) against a current captain. All of this occurs after being recommended by a current captain. This was all shown during the New Captain Arc, and confirmed by the Head Captain in a later episode and manga chapter. The only other way to become a captain would be To have personal recommendations from at least six captains and approval from at least three of the remaining seven. Therefore, since there are not 200 members of squad 9 present at the current fight, the second way is the only way for Hisagi to become a captain. [Captain of squad 0]

ya, and now that central 46 is gone yamamoto could bend the rules if he wanted to i'd think.Soul reaper magnum 23:14, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Magnum, but when have we ever known Yamamoto to even think about bending the rules? Captain of squad 0

Cap'n 0; Genryusai has bent the rules atleast once before.. Rukia is still alive even after giving Ichigo her spirit force through stabbing him with her zanpakuto.--Captain Brooks 00:43, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

this is kinda the same thing. he let rukia live after he found out about what aizen was doing,and it was aizen that set every thing up for the execution. and now the vizards practically saved all of them and now they are dealing with aizen,tosen, and probably ichimaru.Soul reaper magnum 04:38, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Captain Zero, the exam is watched by three captains including the Captain Commander. I dont think Squad Zero will turn up unless Aizen makes the key, in which case most of the current good guys will probably be invarious states of dismemberment (unless its in the anime, in which case they'll be turned into giant marshmallows and eaten or some other crap).

Sosuke's involvemnet doesn't really excuse Rukia from being stripped of her powers (or atleast jailed); unless Genryusai is of the opinion that Rukia could help in the war against the arrancars, and so he just pardoned her.--Captain Brooks 14:54, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

that's what i'd think, and after the war he'll probable want to keep the vizards around in some waySoul reaper magnum 17:13, December 2, 2009 (UTC).

I would think so too; that is if there are any vizards left by the time the war is over (which I'm sure there will be; but I could be wrong.)--Captain Brooks 19:17, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

ya that's true, if TK is going to do it i'd think only two or three would die.Soul reaper magnum 00:49, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying to remember the last time any significant 'good guy' character died during this series (Kaien Shiba & Masaki Kurosaki don't count...their only appearances have been as memories). Coming up blank! Maybe TK will surprise us but his track record suggests that all will be safe at war's end. Great Cthulhu 00:58, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

I have to say.. Shuhei is a tough; but retarded.. he got slashed.. survived; had Kaname at his will and could have killed him; but instead he just tries to convince Kaname to come back to their side.. so Kaname stabs him.. If I was Genryusai; I would have thought of killing Shuhei for not dealing with the enemy immediately.--Captain Brooks 14:38, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Well, Hisagi has now killed Tosen. Which was annoyed the hell out of a lot of people who maintain that it is technically impossible for Hisagi to kill Tosen because of what Kenpachi said to Ichigo way back during Soul Society arc regarding weak and strong reiatsu. I am paraphrasing but it goes something like "when two reiatsu collide, the weakest takes damage". Except I never got the impression that just being having a weaker reiatsu stops you from damaging a stronger reiatsu. Kenpachi who always have a constant and overwhelming flow of reiatsu from his body is the only one who seems to be immune to surprise attacks. Everybody else... yeah they can be surprised attacked. Plus Hisagi is not a moron. If he truly believed that the difference between him and Tosen was so great that his sword was just blunt against him then Hisagi wouldn't have gotten up to try and fight him. So I am thinking Hisagi's reiatsu is far higher then most of us suspected and he has really shone in the recent chapter. Tinni 10:42, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

For the sake of staying on topic, I have moved all conversation pertaining to Tosen's death to Forum:Kaname_tosen. Please kill the discussion in this section about Hisagi. Tinni 15:41, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

After the last Chapter i would say hisagi Deserves Kommamura's Captain post. Between them they had previously only defeated the same level of opponent and fair enough Hisagi was owned by Allon but then kommamura didn't stand a chance against Tosen whereas Hisagi fought on with true determination and managed to exploit a critical weakness. He seems much more suited to being a captain. Nick D Wolfwood 15:45, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Replacement captains........
The important thing to remember is that Central 46 excommunicated Shinji and co. under the influence of Aizen's shikai. There is no doubt in my mind that this is what occurred. In fact it is hard to know when that occurred but he certainly was able to kill them ALL quite easily. I mean, aren't they all former captains and special ops that had been promoted to the status of judges to oversee making the proper verdicts and passing laws for the people of Soul Society to live by? I am sure that Aizen and co. had been calling the shots for a while before making their intentions known to the degree that we know now.

As for filling in the blanks, then I think that it should come from within as the squads like and respect their own members. Kira for example has grown tremendously, even though he is emotionally tied to Gin and the whole trial. He still leads the squad well without having the Captain status. He is highly respected by the squad. If he has mastered Wabisuke, he should be Captain. Period. To replace the others, then it also should go in this fashion with Yama-jii showing the young ones the ropes and encouraging them to accept the responsibilities of leadership. He probably hasn't had time but, this is what should be done. The top three and oldest also should definitely give a hand in that. Unless Aizen had been controlling that too.

With regards to the Royal Guard, I am open to exploring that totally new world. It would be great and refreshing to go into another dimension and explore what that is like. New powers and higher leveled opponents as well as companions. More character development and new extended action and drama-packed arcs. In this way, DBZ nor even Naruto could compare or are on par with Bleach in terms of potential to go the distance with bringing new material to keep the fans happy and the manga and anime going. One good idea is to create a world where the amalgamation of all of those power levels that we now ruminate over is commonplace. Normal. Like even among the Royal Guard there are vizard/arrancar-type individuals with their powers already mastered that guard the King and His dimension. Create a story from that. Explore Ichi's sisters' development. They have to have the same powers. Get an arc from than. Swing back the pendulum and tell the story of Isshin and Masaki. Write a Yourichi and Uruhara (lovestory) arc. Give us a "Great Noble Houses" arc.... So on and so forth. We can do a lot with Bleach, a lot!

The Vizards don't really hate shinigami or SS in my opinion. That is home for them and I am sure they want to return. They felt abandoned and cast out so they naturally have resentment. When the truth is examined though, I think that people will let bygones stay gone.--BROTHER BAN-KAI 15:24, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

You are mistaken. Center 46 is made up of ordinary souls from around Soul Society. From both inside Seireitei and Rokungai. They are not shinigami and having spiritual power is not a requirement for the position. They have to be learned and wise men, that is all. Tinni 15:48, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

-- Brother Bankai,

I think you are right about the Vizards. Despite what Hiyori said its pretty obvious they suffer from an exile's love/hate relationship with their homeland. The Vizards want to return but in order to make their current predicament bearable they say otherwise. And I agree that once the current emergency blows over Soul Society will start to rethink its position on the Vizards who returned in it's darkest hour to fight against Aizen. Great Cthulhu 15:57, December 17, 2009 (UTC)