Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-1429792-20140920205950

The following are posts that were moved from another thread as they were off topic. This new discussion on the protective charm Isshin gave to Ichigo and which shielded Kon from Grand Fisher can be continued here. 20:59, September 20, 2014 (UTC)

Jam17692

K3npachi wrote: Isshin didn't have his powers when he impregnated Masaki, so he was considered human.

he still had some powers, for example he could sense spirits and he was able to use kido to make that charm for kon

Gacsam

Uhh, Isshin did NOT have any powers back then, he had to be entirely human to keep Masaki's soul from starting(?) soul suicide. He created the charm at the end of the 'Agent of the Shinigami' arc, long after Masaki's death.

Jam17692

I think you should reread something: http://mangasee.me/manga/?series=Bleach&chapter=536&index=1&page=16

Gacsam

What are you exactly trying to point out? His powers returned after 20 years, the word "returned" implies they were gone.

Jam17692

the first comment i replied to said that isshin didn't have any powers when ichigo was conceived, i said that he still had some powers as he made a kido based charm to protect kon in ichigos body and he still able to sense spirits(for example he could sense it when grandfisher attacked masaki), you replied to that saying that isshin gave kon that charm long after masaki's death therefore he had already regained his full shingami powers, so i provided you with a link which prove that he didn't get his full shinigami powers back until a month after that and your asking me what i'm trying to point out... really.

also this:http://mangasee.me/manga/?series=Bleach&chapter=535&index=1&page=12

Stefan (Shikai - "Rust & Shatter")

First, Isshin's, and Masaki's, souls were linked together by Kisuke, that's how Isshin knew how Masaki had died, and not because Isshin had active Shinigami powers.

Secondly, I don't see how that charm proves that Isshin had active Shinigami powers at that time, since Isshin told Ichigo that he got the charm from Masaki, and not that he made it himself. Should we speculate that Isshin was lying, then it's more likely that Kisuke, or Ryuken, gave Isshin the charm to protect him after his Shinigami powers had been sealed, or that Isshin asked Kisuke, or Ryuken, to make one for Ichigo, when he learned that Ichigo had Shinigami powers and was out fighting Hollows on a daily basis.

On the next page, following the one you linked to, Kisuke informs Isshin that: "While you're inside the shell, you will never have access to your Shinigami powers. That includes the ability to see Hollows." Since that is fact, and the assumption that Isshin made the charm is speculation, then I trust the fact.

Jam17692

it wasn't an assumption:http://mangasee.me/manga/?series=Bleach&chapter=187&index=1&page=8 on that page he stated that the charm was made for kon to begin with, in the anime he outright says he made it for kon so i wouldn't call it speculation, beyond that the page i provided before stated that isshin would be a shinigami/human hybrid meaning he still had shinigami powers even if he couldn't access them meaning ichigo did inherit shingami powers from his father.

Stefan (Shikai - "Rust & Shatter")

Well, since Isshin says that the charm was made especially for Kon, I guess Masaki didn't make it after all. However, if you read/listen to what Isshin actually says to Kon, Isshin never says that HE made it himself. I've listed quotes from the manga, and anime, below.

Manga:"Hey! Catch, Kon. This charm was meant for you to begin with."

Anime:"Here, Kon, hold on to this. It's a charm that was created just for you; I meant to give it to you."

I agree with you that Isshin never ceased to be a Shinigami, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to help Masaki. Isshin's Shinigami/Human nature was essential to balance out Masaki's Quincy/Hollow nature. My point is that since Kisuke clearly stated that Isshin would never have access to his Shinigami powers, while inside the shell, Isshin therefore couldn't have made the charm. That's why I mentioned Kisuke, and Ryuken, as possible creators.

Jam17692

it couldn't have been Ryuken since he's a Quincy, so I guess Kisuke.

Stefan (Shikai - "Rust & Shatter")

So, Quincy can make things like the Quincy Cross, Seele Schneider, Ginto tubes, and Hollow bait, but they can't make charms that protect against Hollows? How do you figure that? Since Hollows are like poison to Quincy, and Quincy traditionally rely on their Spirit Bow and arrows to exterminate Hollows, then having close-range protection would be more valuable to a Quincy than to a Shinigami, who typically use their Zanpakutou to purify Hollows, and are trained for melee-style fighting.

Jam17692

it's kido-based

Stefan (Shikai - "Rust & Shatter")

How do figure it must be Kido-based? Isshin doesn't recite an incantation, or do any special hand signs, before using it, he simply throws it at the Hollow to activate it.

Jam17692

you know what forget it, whoever wrote Isshin's page on this site seems to be under the impression that it's kido-based but i can't find anything on it in the manga and anime

StealthBlade98

Better question is: why would Ryuken even make the charm to begin with?

Ryuken doesn't even like Soul Reapers or isn't even that friendly to Kisuke or Isshin(sometimes). While i'm not denying he could be able to it just seems dumb to interfere with situations that has nothing to do with Quincy's or himself. Urahara is a prime suspect on who would make a device like that because he's the genius of the manga. His intellect far surpasses anyone on the manga/show even to Aizen who admits he's smarter than him.

Considering the fact Urahara gave Rukia Kon to begin with i think it would make more sense for him to make a charm for kon while he's using Ichigo's body while Ichigo off doing his soul reaping thing. I'm going to say it's kido based and created by Kisuke following the events when Isshin realized Kon entered Ichigo's body and the flashback where he's smoking by Masaki's grave, he probably told Urahara after Ichigo and Co went to save Rukia in the soul society. Thus why at episode 63(or 64) Isshin told ichigo to hold onto the charm. Made no sense for Ryuken to get involved with Soul Reaper Mod Soul business. Hell he doesn't even care for his duties as a Quincy as he told Uryu many times which made him dislike his father. See after watching the anime many times you come to realize things(sure not 100% accurate but for the important canon parts) about the people. ;)

If ryuken made the device he would have personally gave it to Ichigo who he never appeared until the beginning of the arrancar arc.

Stefan (Shikai - "Rust & Shatter")

I'm sorry to say that I don't know what you're referring to. All I can find about the charm on Isshin's page is this quote at the end of Agent of the Shinigami arc: '"When Ichigo dismisses it, Isshin, giving him a protective charm, tells him Masaki gave it to him, and it will bring him good fortune. Isshin tells him he is lending it to him for his trip, and he has to give it back when he returns. When Ichigo does not answer, Isshin tells him he will have to shave his beard if he loses it."'

I also found some information in the beginning of the Arrancar arc, quote: "When Ichigo returns the protective charm to Isshin, he, saying he does not want it, sews it into Ichigo's school uniform. When Ichigo asks if he lied about Masaki having given him the charm, Isshin changes the subject. When Grand Fisher is about to attack Kon (who is in Ichigo's body), the charm Isshin gave Ichigo is activated, creating a barrier between them. Wearing a Shinigami uniform, Isshin, telling him to take it with him wherever he goes, turns his attention to Grand Fisher, telling him Ichigo is not home and he should play with him instead."

There's no hint of it being Kido-based in these two instances, so if you read it somewhere else then please share that information. It's easier to agree, or disagree, with someone if both refer to the same source material.

StealthBlade98

And i'm saying it is Kido based because there's only one person who would even make such a charm for kon; Kisuke Urahara. That earlier quote regarding Masaki is a lie to have ichigo to hold to it. Think about it, ichigo doesn't know his father knew about kon or knows if he's in his body while doing his business. Kubo didn't want information being leaked about Isshin having powers to build up to it. Thus why it was written in that way so he wouldn't have isshin give hints to ichigo he knew stuff. Ichigo isn't stupid if isshin said "ichigo here, it's for you. Kisuke made it for you while kon uses your body" he's going to be suspicious on why he knows urahara or know about kon. And Ryuken has no reason to interfere because Kubo didn't get to that story part yet on revealing Uryu's father.

At that part of the story Everyone expected his father to be a mere human possessing 0 powers but later it was revealed he did indeed and then the plot thickens on "ah that's how ichigo has latent Soul reaper powers. It came from his father"

Stefan (Shikai - "Rust & Shatter")

Your whole reasoning is based on that the charm was made for Kon, because Isshin told him so, just like he told Ichigo that the charm used to be Masakis. Think of Isshin as the oracle from Matrix; he told Ichigo, and Kon, what they needed to hear to hold on to the charm. Besides, Kisuke was adamant in destroying Kon in the beginning, since he was a Mod-soul, and would've done so if Rukia hadn't saved him. Then, with a sudden plot twist, Kisuke is now Kon's best friend and makes a charm to keep the poor guy safe, and drags Isshin into the plot to boot...

You also reason that if Ryuken, who Ichigo haven't even met, had made the charm, he would have given it to Ichigo in person. Kisuke, on the other hand, who Ichigo already knew, and who was involved with Kon as well, would not give the charm to Ichigo in person. Instead he'd give it to Isshin, who would have to make up a lie, about it having belonged to Masaki, in order to pass it on to Ichigo. Go figure... I believe the charm was meant to protect Ichigo's human body, while he was out fighting Hollows in his spirit form, and Kon clearly wasn't up to the job. Why would Isshin go to the trouble of insisting that both Ichigo, and Kon, should keep the charm with them at all times, just to protect a Mod-soul who he doesn't even know?

I also don't get why Ryuken would refuse a request from Isshin, for a charm to protect Ichigo, even if he wouldn't do it for a Mod-soul. Isshin and Ryuken have known each other for 20 years, just as long as Isshin have known Kisuke. I'm not trying to present my reasoning as fact, and neither should you.

StealthBlade98

I'm basing it on the premise that Ryuken wouldn't make something for a soul reaper, he doesn't even like Isshin that much which is evident when they get together. It's nothing like Ichigo Uryu's relationship. In the beginning they were like that but now they're close friends even joining in helping Ichigo. He even said to Ichigo "i'm not coming to Hueco Mundo to help a soul reaper only to help my friends"

There's no logical reasoning for Ryuken who hasn't even been made public by kubo in the manga to make a charm. The whole idea that Kisuke wanted to kill Kon you stated is all apart of the plot. Of course he would want to do so at that point but eventually there relationship changed. It's all apart of the plot Kubo is doing. It's not about me stating my opinions as fact it's more on common sense. Kisuke would agree to make a charm for ichigo because he helped ichigo get his powers back and quite frankly Isshin knew about Kon for quite awhile when kon was introduced in the first season(the flashback with kon in ichigo's body and Isshin smoking at Masaki's grave) is when he realized Kon. He may have lost his powers but he's not a complete idiot that he wouldn't recognize a difference in personality with Ichigo and Kon.

He told Ichigo about the charm because kubo didn't want to spill the beans too soon on his(isshin) powers and his mother. So he lied to have ichigo keep it on him. Then he sewed the Charm into his clothes after he tried giving it back to his father because he knew Kon uses his body from time to time. Read the manga, watch the anime many times everything is explained and once you realize this was Kubo's way of writing on how the plot goes, everything makes sense. Ryuken wouldn't do this and Masaki theory could be used but why did Isshin claim "that charm always belonged to you. Not once did I ever call you ichigo while you were in his body" Kon "Since when have you known I wasn't ichigo" Isshin "Since the Beginning". This is a key text along side him giving the charm. Masaki wouldn't create a charm before Kon was introduced. It's clearly was made when Isshin realized kon from the very beginning of the manga/anime and had Kisuke fix something up(for the intention of giving it to kon) but likely told him to protect ichigo's body while he's fighting.

Isshin's a former captain of the 13 court guard and a Shiba he's not stupid. Everything makes sense when you think about. All my points come directly what is written in the manga/anime and understanding how the plot was being developed by Kubo.

Stefan (Shikai - "Rust & Shatter")

I still don't get why Kisuke wouldn't simply give the charm to Ichigo in person, and also explain what it could do, instead of complicating the matter by using Isshin as a middle man, who susequently would have to lie to Ichigo about its origin? That's what I meant by Kisuke pulling Isshin into the plot; I'm not disputing that Isshin knew about Kon all along.

By your own reasoning, Ryuken would have a much stronger reason to stay anonymous, and keep his distance from Ichigo, being a Quincy and all. I also believe that you underestimate the bond that exist between Isshin, and Ryuken. Remember that they've known each other far longer than Ichigo have known Uryu, and so I believe Ryuken would help Isshin as a friend, and not as a Quincy helping a Shinigami.

StealthBlade98

Probably cause it's kisuke and he doesn't do things that makes sense to the common person. Isshin probably asked him to allow himself to hand it to ichigo with that reasoning to not draw suspicions. I just can't see any logical reason, if i was kubo, to have it that Ryuken would create something to protect ichigo before he ever made an appearance in the canon plot. Oh well, still disagree it's ryuken. :P

Jam17692

abit late but here:

"Protective Charm: A Kidō-based charm given to him by his father. If the owner is attacked by hostile forces, it acts as a defense by forming a barrier, as displayed when Kon (while in Ichigo's body) was attacked by the Arrancar Grand Fisher. Ichigo was unaware of the charm's power, and was told it once belonged to his mother. The latter is proven to be a lie, as Isshin later reveals he created the charm recently." http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Ichigo_Kurosaki#Equipment

"Isshin can create charmed objects to act as a defense against hostile forces, such as the Arrancar Grand Fisher." http://bleach.wikia.com/wiki/Isshin_Kurosaki#Powers_.26_Abilities

Gacsam

You DO know that the person who wrote that page might have simply assumed that Isshin was the one to create the charm, right?

Jam17692

have you read the previous posts? also while understand what you are saying, it's easier to believe what others have written when they've sourced it. this was the rare instance in which someone added in assumed details with the facts.

Stefan (Shikai - "Rust & Shatter")

Well, the part about Isshin having created the charm certainly surprised me. I guess the charm, by extension, is said to be Kido-based because it's assumed that Isshin made it? An assumption that was made despite the fact that Kisuke clearly stated that Isshin couldn't have had access to his Shinigami powers at the time, and despite the fact that he's never even claimed to have made it in the first place. Further, concerning the contradicting stories he told Ichigo, and Kon, about its origin, it seems the story he told Kon apparently hold more credibility than the one he gave to Ichigo...

It also says that the charm protects the owner against "hostile forces" (like what exactly? Street thugs? Approaching cars? Rabid dogs?), which is a big generalization, since it's only been proven to work on Hollows. Imo, whoever contributed to that section need to double check the referred manga pages for facts, rather than make contributions made up of assumptions. Of course that's just my two cents, if there's actually a consensus that Isshin did, in fact, make the charm himself, and of all the other points I mentioned, then who am I to disagree? ^^

Jam17692

I was kind of thinking it may have been written in one of the character books, but I can't find it online. 