Talk:Genryūsai Shigekuni Yamamoto

Amagai Arc
Shouldn't someone add the new information from the Captain Amagai arc? Such as he killed Amagai's father etcCrimmastermind 03:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Maybe they should, however, do filler arcs really mean that much? Arieus 08:01, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

spiritual power classification
I've been looking at Yamamoto's Powers and abilities section and it say's immense spiritual power but since he has mastered all forms of shinigami combat knows most of if not all the techniques (shunko and similar others not included) is the one who created the academy and has thousands of years of experience that's more than most of the characters combined if I'm not mistaken and has the most powerful zanpakuto in existence, so shouldn't it be classified as colossal spiritual power or something similar, I mean you can't just state the everyone has either Vast spiritual power, Great spiritual power or Immense spiritual power it's redundant.--SalmanH 13:05, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The power classification is kept simple. Spiritual Power: for those possessing spiritual power but to what level or extent is yet unknown such as Orihime or Chad. High Spiritual Energy: For those of significant skill and power such as the high level fighters such as Renji, and Ikkaku. Great Spiritual Energy: for those of captain level such as soifon and Sajin. Immense Spiritual Energy for those of noticeably high levels of spiritual energy that greatly increase their powers in battle or that directly affects the surrounding environment and is ridiculously powerful but mastered by those possessing it. Such as Yamamoto or Toshiro, Vast Spiritual Energy for those who have a whole lot of spiritual power but its wild and untamed and tends to leak from the person and is easily perceived by others. Such as Kenpachi and Ichigo. He doesnt need his own personal classification then its gonna be like that for everyone and lets not even get into Aizen. Salubri 13:32, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I suppose you're right, still it does seem to kind of fit for him although I'm not entirely sure about Aizen, one question though, where did those data graphs come from the ones shown on each current captain? .--SalmanH 14:03, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I really cant remember someone put them up a while ago. They are from some character thing that was put out like at the beginning of the series, but we mostly dont go to much by them cause we kind list what is actually known but they still are pretty interesting but im not sure they are entirely accurate at least for some of the characters. As it lists certain captains as powerful but seemingly less powerful then they are portratyed, i think the problem lies in that there really no explanation behind what the details of whats be graphed. Though there are those obviously right on the money. Salubri 14:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Name
In anime episode 55, Nanao said his name was Genryūsai Shigekuni-Yamamoto. Is the name right on the wikia OR anime? ---Klross1.

It turns out your right Bleach Official Character Book Souls, pg 200, clearly states his name is in fact arranged as Genryūsai Shigekuni Yamamoto, the profile has been changed to reflect it. Salubri 00:29, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe Viz incorrectly ordered his name in the Souls book, and it was ordered incorrectly in the anime as well. Why do I say this? There are no middle names in Japanese. And if his last name was meant to be "Shigekuni-Yamamoto", the kanji would be ordered 重國山本 元柳斎. Since they are ordered the way they are (山本元柳斎 重國), it is likely that his last name is indeed Yamamoto-Genryūsai, and his first name is Shigekuni. Also note that Komamura calls him "Genryūsai-dono"...to call soutaicho by his first name would probably be very disrespectful. Big red01027 09:40, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Well unfortunately its at a point between correctness and the way Kubo wrote it. Souls has every name in there written the western way and so is his. Unless you wanna ask Kubo himself its unfortunately a moot point. I understand your reasoning but also if we discount how his name is put in the official guide then we have to discount everything in there. Not to mention his name was always put down the original way and never questioned so its not like this was a back in forth thing. If your idea is that viz or the anime has presented it wrong then i dont know at this point because this happened as recently as of this week became an issue. If there is proof of the way you say it is conclusively then no problem it be can be changed. Salubri 11:25, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe the way Kubo wrote it and the way Viz interpreted it are different. Also, I think it was an isolated error on their part, since no one else's name was put down erroneously. But if you're fine with it this way, then so am I. Sorry if I'm a bother. Big red01027 16:12, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Not a name
It is my belief that "Genryūsai" is not part of his name, but an honorific title that signifies his status as a (grand)master of Shinigami combat arts. A search in KanjiNetworks for 斎 (sai) returns meanings of "purification" and "room (for abstinence, training or study)"; the last meaning gives connotations of a hermit who dedicates his solitary life to mastering a traditional art, be it martial or otherwise (Shaolin monks come to mind). The kanji itself occurs frequently in honorific titles of martial-art masters, both historical and fictional, which they usually take up later in their lives, similar to how samurai gain several names throughout their lifetimes ("childhood name", "adulthood name", and "court title" being the most common); the titular character of Rurouni Kenshin, for example, is known by the title of Battousai (抜刀斎), which in the aforementioned context roughly means "master of drawing the blade" (抜刀 lit. means "drawn sword"). MarqFJA 17:41, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

That is most interesting thing I've heard so far on here I think. I wonder if anyone can confirm this cause I have been thinking the same thing myself. If we can possibly get an accurate translation that would be good.Salubri 06:10, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

More food for thought. Never been any good with the Kanji but if you take the romanized version and break it down to: Gen-ryu(u)-sai your left with: original-style/method/manner of-purification. Saying that my methed isn't the most reliable, but it's just a thought.

Spyrechild 20:24, November 19, 2009 (UTC)

Sheesh, do I have to do all the hard work for this? Anyway, I googled a bit for meanings related to 斎, and found that it has strong Buddhist connotations, particularly of ascetic lifestyle; very fitting for the image of a martial-arts hermit. Fact: Miyamoto Musashi, the historical master swordsman, was significantly influenced by Buddhism in regards to his philosophy on both martial arts and life in general. MarqFJA 00:38, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

I've wrestled with the fact of his three names myself, as like Salubri said, it's odd for the Japanese. To approach from the basics, a breakdown:

山本元柳斎重國 Yamamoto Genryuusai Shigekuni is the order in Japanese which, as a typical Asian custom, puts their names in the order family name-personal name (cf. the protagonist's foes' favorite invocation: "Kurosaki Ichigo!"). The only other names of this like in my recent memory were the names of the Jurai royal family members in Tenchi Muyou!, e.g. 柾木阿重霞 樹雷 Masaki Aeka Jurai. Aeka is her personal name, and Masaki seems to be designated as her family name, given it's also used by her father, mother, and sister--but not her maternal grandmother, who uses Kamiki, being married into a different branch of the family. Thus, it would seem in such as case that she is "Aeka Jurai Masaki," or "Aeka of the Jurai (family) Masaki." However, Yamamoto does seem an even more unusual case.

MarqFJA's find is very helpful, as the suffix -sai 斎 is also found in the name of eccentric Inuyasha swordsmith Toutousai. Though I can't find any definite answer on this as a suffix (i.e. its exact intended meaning), his insights do seem to suggest a kind of "sage" meaning, as in one who "has been purified, as a Buddhist ascetic."

Spyrechild was, however, misled by a homophonous word genryuu 源流 "source, origin" (lit. "source-flow/course"). The genryuu 元柳 in Genryuusai is actually "prime/founding willow (tree)" (柳 "willow; bliss, pleasure"). That Ukitake also calls him "Genryuusai-sensei" is significant, lending credence to this as a title of some kind--though an odd placement for one.

In conclusion, barring further data (and I tried searching it out in all ways I can think of), I think it should be (admittedly tentatively) assumed that his name is "Shigekuni Yamamoto Genryuusai" wherein Shigekuni may be his first name (I did find other Japanese people with a personal name Shigekuni, though with different kanji), Yamamoto is his family name, and Genryuusai is indeed an honorific title, meant as something like "prime willow ascetic/sage." I tried to cursorily search out any mythical associations of the willow in Japanese culture/folklore, but haven't found anything yet. Its alternating meanings "willow" and "pleasure" are probably a clue, in the vein of the peach in Asia having long been associated with longevity. Adam Restling 08:26, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Wow. All I can say is thanks Kubo. U have us one heck of a challenge here. Minato 02:21, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

I think I've found more evidence that supports this conclusion, by accident, while researching Jiroubou Ikkanzaka's stuff. In the raws, he uses his nickname and calls himself Kamaitachi Jiroubou --very similar to Genryuusai Shigekuni ! If Jiroubou had used his full name, might we have ended up with a Japanese form like Ikkanzaka Kamaitachi Jiroubou that perfectly parallels Japanese-order Yamamoto Genryuusai Shigekuni in the family name-title-personal name order? I think we might have! I think we have here the closest to confirmation that, in Western personal name-first order, his name is "Genryuusai Shigekuni Yamamoto" (sort of like if you were saying "Old Master Shigekuni Yamamoto") that we're liable to get this side of the globe. However, we could probably retain the current "Westernized" order "Shigekuni Yamamoto Genryuusai" and keep the title at the end, if you want. It sounds better, anyway, and is almost the same, like saying "Shigekuni Yamamoto the Genryuusai." Adam Restling 07:05, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Here's another tidbit that I'd like to contribute: In feudal-era Japan, the full name structure for samurai and such aristocratic classes was "family name-childhood personal name-title(s)-adulthood personal name"; the famed Oda Nobunaga, for example, would have introduced himself as "Oda Saburou (lit. 'third son') Kazusanosuke (vice governor of Kazusa) Nobunaga", though he might have probably preferred to drop the "Saburou" childhood name. MarqFJA 11:15, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Nadegiri
Both manga and anime show that he said Ryuujin Jakka: Number 1 Nadegiri so it does actually belong in the zanpakuto section not the Powers and Abilities section.--SalmanH 19:22, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Actually its in the powers and abilities section but its not an ability of the zanpakuto it is sword technique shown very clearly in the anime. Salubri 21:23, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

So saying ryuujin jakka before the attack was for dramatic affect.-- SalmanH  (Talk)  13:07, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

It would seem so, it is the name of his zanpakuto which is being used to do the deed. Its clearly a fire type zanpakuto the attack is not shown to used any remote bit of fire in it and its numbered suggesting probably 1 of many in a number of attack techniques. Salubri (Talk)  19:41, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

new pic?
Should we add a new profile pic? To be honest the pic that is used right now looks kind of stupid...he looks stoned. The End 01:37, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

If u have any suggestions please post them. Minato 02:17, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Yama~jii is another character that it is very hard to find decent shots of. I have a couple, but they have too many problems. While they are good quality images, neither show him facing the camera properly and both have poor lighting (one shading, the other fire) and have too much of his head cut off. I can't think of any time we have got a good shot of the guy. -- Yyp  (Talk)  15:18, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Zanpakuto Translation
Ryūjin Jakka (流刃若火; "Flowing Flame Blade" or "Flowing Sword, Young Fire")

There are multiple possible translations given but we only need one and the most accurate would be the best. Salubri (Talk)  19:18, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Ryuujinjakka

ryuu, ru "flow, course" | nagasu "drain, pour, shed (blood, tears); wash away; set adrift"

jin, nin | ha, yaiba "blade, edge, sword, cutting tool"

jaku, nyaku | moshi "else, or; similar(ly), just as, like"

ka, ko | hi "fire, flame, blaze"

I would translate "flowing blade-like flame." You'll note I make Ryuujinjakka all one word, but other names, like Tensa Zangetsu, two words; I try to insert such "word boundaries" when it seems the names consist of two lexical units, not a more ostensibly-compounded single name--as well as to cut down on the jawbreaker appearance forms like Tensazangetsu might give off. Thus, I think of a name like Tensa Zangetsu--where it's clear the Tensa part is added to the normal name--as two words, as though "heaven-chain slaying-moon." While English usually can use one word in such cases--e.g. policeman is noun + noun--as I said, making the word seem not so long, and recognizing the name as a pair of Tensa + original name Zangetsu, looks more elegant to me. Ryuujinjakka I make one word because of its more lit. form "flowing-blade-like-flame," and it seemed as odd to me to divide it into Ryuujin Jakka "flowing-blade like-flame" as it would dividing, say, the English name Robert into Ro Bert "fame, bright." Adam Restling 06:51, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Ryūjin Jakka
Shouldn't Nadegirl be under his Zanpakuto skills cause in the episode when he uses nadegirl he says Ryūjin Jakka Nadegirl or Ryūjin Jakka Number 1 nadgirl so why is it under his power and abbilities ??

There was a previous discussion on this. The manga trumps the anime period. It is a sword technique its not an effect of his zanpakuto. There was no fire it simply a technique, it was shown as such in the anime. Saying the name of his zanpakuto is not justification of it being a technique. Momo says the name of his zanpakuto when using its ability. Renji says howl zabimaru when its in shikai and bankai. There is nothing stating that saying the name before or after is actual pertaining to the use of an ability. The only ability other then normal shikai used was the one he used to trap aizen, gin and tosen. Salubri (Talk)  21:48, February 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * While we are on the subject of Ryujin Jakka, his new power Ennetsu Jigoku. My translator has that this is a Buddhist term. Now, I have a great deal of understanding of Buddhism but I wasn't familiar with this term. So I researched this (meaning I went to wikipedia). From my understanding, this may refer to the Naraka, which can be translated to hell. There are several different hells, including a hot hell called the Sanjiva. In this realm, the ground is made of hot iron heated by an immense fire. Beings sentenced here attack each other with iron claws. The attendants of Yama, the judge of the dead, appear and attack the being with many fiery weapons as well. As soon as the being experiences an unconsciousness like death, they are suddenly restored to full health and the attacks begin again.


 * Seeing as KT (TK?) has used Buddhist terms for some of the Shinigamis' powers, this might be something that should be put in the article. However, since it is from wikipedia, it might not be reliable. I can try to find some outside sources for this though. --Shinitenshi 07:34, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

It will be nothing more then speculation of Kubo's intentions. He has so far used terms for various asian cultures, not specifically explained why he uses them. Regardless of where its from it cannot be placed in any article.Salubri (Talk)  07:43, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Using 'captain' instead of 'Captain'...
Please refrain from doing it. For future reference, as it is a title, it should ALWAYS be capitalized. Same goes with Lieutenants. They should never be lowercased.

Just thought I should put that out there...it was really getting annoying having to do that over and over in only one article. I'm sure other articles are just as bad. I'll get to as many as I can (I only edit grammar and spelling errors; I'll never actually add new material). And finding that it sometimes was capitalized after just fixing ones that weren't was just as annoying...[/rant]Iffy88 04:48, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * We only capitalize the captain/lieutenant when they are used as a title with the person's name (e.g. "Captain Yamamoto" is capitalized, but "captain of the First Division" and "the captain then attacked" are not). The rest of the time, captain etc is used as a normal word and thus should not have a capital letter. That is the format we use on the entire wiki, please stick to it. The changes you made have already been undone. -- Yyp (Talk) 11:58, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Yamamoto Hitting the Ground
I was just reading the article, and I raized my eyebrows when I read that Wonderweiss "throws (Yamamoto) sending the captain-commander crashing into the cityscape below"... Is that what really happened? Because I was under the impression that Yamamoto simply shunpoed down to avoid the sudden moment of vulnerability... Auron85 15:58, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * If it was shunpo, it would not have caused an explosion of debris/smoke/dust when he reached the ground. He was clearly thrown to the ground. -- Yyp (Talk) 16:17, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Oh... So those weren't the fires of Ennetsu Jigoku that were extinguishing... Oh well. I guess Wonderweiss is simply freakishly strong. Auron85 04:45, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Few things in the Abilities section
i was just reading this and i noticed a few things. just want to check it's ok before changing:

1 milleniums isn't a word it's millenia

2 There is a sentence about the commander deliberately giving harsh orders because he probably knows his sunbordinates will act rebelliously within the tactician section. i want to remove that as it's speculative.

3 For his spiritual pressure i think it should mention that he killed several low level hollows with spiritual pressure alone when he released RJ in karakura town. I'm not sure if this was just in the anime though.

thanks for you opinions Nick D Wolfwood 14:13, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

Well Millennia should be used. That sentence your referring to is speculative, not entirely sure how it got there but it should be removed. Im not sure where it was shown his reiatsu doing such a thing, as he is rarely if ever seen in battle. So few times and I don't recall but Im not convinced that it would matter as a talking point. There is no doubt of his power so the fact that it alone can kill low level hollows doesn't really add much that we don't already know.Salubri (Talk)  14:37, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

I think the killing Hollows thing was from chapter 316, when Aizen arrived in Karakura Town. The spirit pressure of the combined armies of Soul Society and Aizen was too much for them to bear. There was no indication that it was solely Yamamoto that was responsible for it. Ryujin Jakka was released after they died. -- Yyp (Talk) 14:45, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks both. Nick D Wolfwood 13:51, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

Chapter 394
In Chapter 394 (on Mangastream now), it says that he was the 30th Captain-Commander and has served that position for 1000 years. You may want to add that, as well as the part where he says "There hasn't been any Shinigami more powerful than me over the past 1000 years." in the Powers and Abilities section.--Gold3263301 02:12, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Also, should we add that to the 1st Division that there were atleast 29 other Captain-Commanders before him?Northstar1012 02:35, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear all that information is already entered on the page in the appropriate areas. Secondly he never says the 1st division he says the title of captain-commander. Though it maybe likely there is no information stating the title is synonymous with the 1st division at all.Salubri (Talk)  02:44, March 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Copying from BleachAsylum:
 * Building on what czeliate has already provided:


 * Nanyue washi ga sennen mo

Gotei Juusantai no soutaichou wo tsutometoru to omoutoru? It's in Yamamoto's "old man speak" with a couple of archaisms (e.g. naze / nande "why" written out nanyue "(for) what reason"), and pretty blurry, but it seems clear: "Why do you think I've served as all-captain of the Thirteen Court Guard troops for 1000 years?" Then he goes on to say something *like* "Because in a thousand years, a Shinigami stronger than me has yet to be born." Will his boast prove true? His prowess is already spectacular in this chapter especially, but he has likely never faced a foe quite like Aizen. When Leviathan and Behemoth strive one with the other, may the world beware... 十三 = juusan "thirteen" = the Thirteen in Thirteen Court Guard troops. And could be confused for 三十 = sanjuu "thirty." And like Corpus said, as long as Mangastream is using Binktopia's translators, you should trust them about as much as wooden nickels.

Analyzing the RAWs, Yamamoto being the 30th Captain-Commander is either a mistranslation on Mangastream's part, or them trying to troll the fanbase. Kenchan 09:59, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Raietsu
I think Yamamoto's raietsu should be classified as Vast as just his New move that was suppost to kill aizen there were like 8 Massive fire pillars and like it said there hasen't been a shinigami stronger than him in the last 1000 years so i think he should get a bonus aafter wat we have seen on the newest chapter And while im at it where is his new move doulble bone or wat its called it should be added Bankai Ichigo 10:05, March 4, 2010 (UTC)Bankaiichigo


 * If you read the Reiryoku page, which explains the power levels we use, you will see that Vast is a special level reserved for those that have very high power but cannot control it - i.e. Ichigo and Zaraki. -- Yyp (Talk) 11:48, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Hand to Hand
Is there some reason we're saying that it is unknown how much his skill with hand to hand has decreased with his age? I don't remember it being stated anywhere. -- Yyp (Talk) 12:15, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

It maybe from Bootleg. According to the fan translation I am currently using (since Bootlegs is not coming out in English until July this year), his battle chart flavour text reads "The Head Captain possesses overwhelming power in every corner, but with old age encroaching, his physical strength is beginning to decline..." However, given that Yamamoto showed pretty impressive hand-to-hand skills in the latest chapter, we can surmise that he's still better then most, if not all, of the other captains and maybe even Yoruichi - the undisputed hand to hand specialist. Tinni (Talk)  12:46, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

The symbols for Sōkotsu are 双骨. --Reikson 16:21, March 4, 2010 (UTC)