Talk:Hollow/Archive 1

Spanish?
I own a Spanish-English dictionary, so out of curiosity I decided to check the names of the different classes of Menos. Out of "Gillian", "Adjuchas", and "Vasto Lorde", the only word that even translates from Spanish is "vasto" (and, yes, it does mean "vast"). I even tried different possible spellings, but none of them worked. If my dictionary is right, "countless creatures" would be "criaturas innumerables" and "stone demon" would be "piedra demonio". I know the translations were given by Tite Kubo (or at least someone in the know), but where did he get them? Darth Havoc 05:03, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * "Stone demon" would actually be "demonio de piedra", but other than that you are right. Only "vasto" is Spanish, none of the other words are used in the language, not even in old Spanish. Whoever wrote those translations probably copied them from somewhere else, because he/she is clearly unfamiliar with the language. The Seaweed Ambassador 04:06, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry if this is waaaaaay too late to actually help anyone (XD), but I just wanted to note that you guys are likely right, and that the person just copied wholesale these "translations" from somewhere, no questions asked, as many other sites usu. do, shamelessly, from places like Wikipedia. But as for translating Adjuchas as "stone demon", this prob. has to do with the fact that Adjuchas was the "genius of rocks" in ancient demon/angelology.

Actually, it seems like they just translated into English the meanings they found on the Spanish BLEACH Wiki, but where those ultimately came from is uncertain; my best guess is that Adjuchas as "genius of the rocks" > Spanish "demon of the rock", and that they mistook Gillian as something like the gag-English number jillion, whence > "countless creatures". Intriguing mystery, though... Adam Restling (talk) 17:16, February 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * That is great for trivia stuff. I'm gonna try to find a similar translation for Gillian as well. WD   Converse  18:21, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

High speed regeneration
The Powers section states, under High-Speed Regeneration, that "Hollows outside of the Menos class who exhibit this ability are very rare; and even then it is usually exclusive to the Gillian Class." This does not make sense and is self contradictory. I'm changing it to "Only Menos-class Hollows have demonstrated this ability."

It then goes on to say that "For some reason, they seem to lose this ability once they evolve to Adjuchas Class (with the possible exception of Szayel Aporro Granz)."

This is untrue. Nowhere is it ever stated that they lose this ability by evolving (only that most choose to give it up when shinigamifying). While it is unknown if Ulquiorra was adjucha or VL, either way he had evolved beyond a Gillian, but yet still had regeneration. Also, the Adjucha class Menos that attacked Ishida at the start of the Arrancar arc could regenerate (it was a menos, yet looked nothing like a Gillian, so it was likely an adjucha). Also, SAG regenerated via a healing aid, not by using High Speed Regeneration, and so is irrelevant to this section. I have deleted this sentence. User:Yyp 16:01, September 29, 2009 Nnoitra was also shown to use High-Speed Regeneration only to regenerate his lost hands, except while being close to his death (which was inflicted only by Kenpachi). When Kenpachi cuts down Nnoitra with his Kendō, he also severs his hands (all other than the right center one).--Gran Danku 13:52, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

What is the kanji for "high-speed regeneration"? I heard only the dubbing of it: "saruseruka". Is it true what I heard according to Ulquiorra in Episode 272, or does it have another dubbing and not "saruseruka"?--Gran Danku 13:52, July 1, 2010 (UTC)

Adjuchas?
I'm not sure why it says Adjuchas is spanish for stone demon I've done some research and I couldn't really find anything. Can someone tell me where they found it's translation.--Kisukeiscool100396 04:38, November 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Quite aptly, nobody can. Asides from "Vasto," none of those words are in any way Spanish, other than the way that they are pronounced. I don't know why it has been there for so long; no arguments have been given to support them. Mohrpheus 17:56, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Shinigamification
There is a link to this word from Hollow implying that Nel and her friends went through it. Just what is this referring to? Is someone trying to talk about the Arrancar or something different? Tyciol 23:13, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

It was a made up word on that was fan based and therefore was deleted. The article is now fixed. Salubri (Talk)  23:15, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

Classifications
I'm noticing a formatting problem on this page. Under the Hollow Classification section, "Menos" is considered a classification along with "Gillian," "Adjuchas," and "Vasto Lorde." The problem here is that for viewers, it initially appears that there are 4 levels of Menos, with "Menos" at the bottom and "Vasto Lorde" at the top and could create confusion for those who don't already understand the classifications. I think it would be best if that sections is rearranged to make it more clear that the term "Menos" applies to all three evolutions and isn't a class in itself. I'll do it myself unless anyone has a reasonable objection to the matter. SerialSniper14 (Talk)  06:23, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Hollow Shot
On the powers and abilities section, there is a power called Hollow Shot. I am not familiar with this ability. Does it actually exist? If so, can someone put a reference to it? --Shinitenshi 04:08, June 25, 2010 (UTC)

The Hollow Shot is a weaker, faster version of the Cero that appears as a blast rather than a beam. Red electricity appears around the hand of the user. It's also called a "Hollow Bullet." When Urahara used his inflatable gigai against Yammy, Yammy used a bunch of these against it. ArchHollow 00:39, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

I dont know why we have it listed as Hollow Shot, it is actually called Bala, its a faster version of cero. Look at Yammy or Findors page to see pictures of it.--God (Pray)  00:43, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

That might not be what the user who put it down meant, but yeah, your description is of Bala, which is what Yammy used. My guess is that whoever put it down (I know it's nobody in this discussion) was referring to the unnamed beam attacks from lesser Hollows (and Grand Fisher). Arrancar109 (Talk)  00:45, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Given the similarity between "Hollow Shot" and "Hollow Bullet" (the other name for Bala), I assumed it was referring to that technique, but now that I've taken a closer look, that doesn't seem to be the case. According to the Bala article, though, only Arrancar can use it anyway, so it probably shouldn't be on the list even if it is the same technique.ArchHollow 01:16, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Delete this ability, it isn't even real CommonCentz (talk) 13:49, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

From the looks of it, it's just referring to the generic energy attacks that non-Menos Hollows use, like the one Rukia made Ichigo kill after his encounter with Yammy and Ulquiorra. If that's the case, then it just needs to be renamed, better described, and referenced. Mohrpheus (talk) 15:04, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Or it could've just been that Hollow's special ability, like Screecher has his unique ability, and so does the Hollow Orihime fought, and just about every other Hollow not named Fishbone D. There isn't hardly enough info to claim that it's a universal Hollow ability, and frankly, it sounds kinda dumb to be honest.CommonCentz (talk) 16:44, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

There have been several hollow use it. So it is not restricted to a single hollow. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can remove it--God (Pray)  17:00, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Clearly I can remove it seeing as its a wiki... Aside from that, since there have been 'several' to use it, I'd like you to provide proof. If you can't, refrain from responding on this topic. CommonCentz (talk) 18:06, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Clearly you have not read any of our Policies but we do have them. You and your bleach forum friends don't seem to like them too much but they are there. Any way, I gave it a better name and a slightly better description. It is also referenced now.--God (Pray)  18:37, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Bleachforum friends? Who said anything about Bleach forums? Lol... Anyway, that sounds better (Especially the name), though Im skeptical its a shared technique. I mean, if we're gonna assume that, why not assume all Shinigami have the same thing, since Shinji fired an unnamed beam to disrupt Grimmjow blowing off Rukia's head. But I guess that Hollow that used it was unnamed, and unimportant, so its kinda understandable to list its ability here. CommonCentz (talk) 18:57, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I was looking over the manga references again, and from what I could tell, no other Hollow in the series fire energy blasts like the ones in question. This suggests that they are that one Hollow's special ability, no different than Shrieker's artillery or Numb Chandelier's mind controlling parasites. Since it is the only ability on the list that is not even remotely implied to be standard for Hollows, we should remove it. Any objections? Mohrpheus (talk) 04:01, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Hallibel
Hallibel is not confirmed that is vasto lorde because it doesn't mention's it at the manga


 * First, please sign your posts by adding ~ to the end of it. This discussion has already been had on Talk:Tier Harribel. It is stated in the MASKED character book that the majority of the Espada were Vasto Lorde. See this and Harribel's talk page for further info. 14:01, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

Jaguar-Like Form?
It states in the Adjuchas section (sorry if I misspelled that) that they come in several forms such as the Jaguar-like form of Grimmjow. However, according to his swords release, he was a panther, not a jaguar. Would replacing (jaguar-like form) to (panther-like form) be more correct? HellBlade (talk) 06:36, September 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Technically speaking, Grimmjow's Hollow form resembles a generic big cat that just happens to have white-colored, armor-like skin. "Panther-like" sounds like a correct description, however, if only because of his Zanpakutou's name and kanji gloss. MarqFJA (talk) 11:20, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

French?
The Trivia states that "Demi" is the French word for Half and so Demi-Hollow should mean "Half-Hollow". As much as I don't question how true this can be, I thought we had agreed that unless they were specified by Kubo, these kind of Language Trivia would be considered Junk Trivia, but I thought of asking before doing anything since it seems like it has been sitting there for over a year according to the article's History. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  02:12, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Wait, wait, demi has a language trivia? Why does "demi" need a language trivia? Isn't demi a fairly commonly used term in english, regardless of its french origins? Remove it I say. Tinni  (Talk)  03:07, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Gone it is. Thanks for the answer. I was surprised to see it too, I bet it's a fairly common preffix in other languages. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  03:55, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Huge Hollows
I'm trudging through this article, which may or may not end up being a partial rewrite. I came across the term "Huge Hollow," which apparently applies to an ordinary Hollow that is particularly large. However, the term is unreferenced - does anybody know where it came up? Mohrpheus  (Talk)  05:38, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

I'll dig through the history to see if I can find when it was added but my guess is that it is made up--


 * Dug through the history, it was added by User:TheUltimate3 so it is not likely made up. I don't remember this ever being said though.--

The term has definitely been used (I believe Soul Society arc, possibly Hisagi getting his scar or Soken Ishida's death), but I'm not sure if it was manga or anime only. I'll have a look later today if you guys don't find it. 10:47, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if this helps, but it definitely was used when Hisagi got his scar. I also think that Uryu's grandfather was facing a number of huge hollows when he died; both instances I remember from reading the manga. The anime I'm not so sure; I've only been looking at the latest episodes. Aeron Solo wuz here (talk) 16:38, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Is it not Episode 46 that whatever happens to Hisagi happens?? Ok the Chapter -17 in Volume 15, need to have a hoke around for it!! That's the flashback chapter right oh Hisagi, Momo, Renji and Kira?? SunXia  (Chat)  17:44, March 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Had a look at the subbed and dubbed versions of Episode 46, the Chapter still alludes me but Hisagi definitely says "Huge Hollow" and whoever subbed it wrote "Note: Huge Hollow is a clasification of Hollow" and in the Dubbed version Hisagi says "It's a hollow, and a big one too" so I can see where that information came from if that helps!! SunXia   (Chat)  18:00, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

Chapter -17, pages 19, 21: Hisagi thinks "A huge Hollow". For Soken, Book of Souls page 72 (english version) says he was attacked by "group of giant Hollows". 18:07, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

In both cases the characters just seem to be commenting on the size of the Hollows; there doesn't seem to be any evidence suggesting that it is an actual classification of Hollow. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  18:38, March 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * That's the impression I got as well. The anime sub saying "Note: Huge Hollow is a clasification of Hollow" is just something the subber added, so it cannot be taken as official, but it might be responsible for the idea that it is an actual classification. The anime does consistently capitalize Huge Hollow, but I don't know if that is an accurate reflection on the Japanese. I can't think of any other times Huge Hollows were mentioned to compare them with. 19:21, March 28, 2011 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed it for the time being. It wasn't really in the correct part of the article anyway. Unless more evidence comes up, the circumstances would make it seem that it isn't a legit term. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  05:15, March 29, 2011 (UTC)

From the Japanese Wiki:

巨大虚（ヒュージ・ホロウ）

名前が示す通りの巨大な虚. 大虚の様に幾百の虚が寄り集まった存在ではなく、単独で既に巨大（ギリアン級大虚ほどではない）.

which translates to something like

Huge Hollow (Hyūji Horō)

Just as the name signifies, a gigantic Hollow. Unlike the Menos--beings composed of hundreds of Hollows--[a Huge Hollow] is already, on its own, [a] gigantic [one] (though not to the extent of the Gillian-level Menos).

Thus, a "Huge Hollow" seems to be a canon term, and was used in the flashback episode to describe the Hollows with undetectable reiatsu that almost killed cadets Kira, Momo and Renji before being dispatched by Aizen and Ichimaru. I tried to track down the chapter -17 that this ep. was supposedly based on, but EFFING NOBODY seems to have it at all, much less have the raw. RARRRGGGH!

However, all we seem to know so far about "Huge Hollows" are that they're apparently just regular, sub-Menos Hollows that happen to be of bigger than usual size (even for Hollows), but smaller than Gillian. Adam Restling (talk) 05:29, August 9, 2011 (UTC)

Vasto Lorde are stronger than Espadas/Arrancars?
Are Vasto Lorde stronger than Espadas/Arrancars because it states their combat abilities are above Gotei 13 captains and some Arrancars were easily defeated by Gotei 13? Oh and Tier as a Vasto Lorde was defeated by an average-level Arrancar.


 * There's been no official word either way. The Harribel-as-VL flashback in the show seems, like the Forest of Menos interlude, to be of strange non-canon to semi-canonicity at this point. One would think that Arrancarifaction of a Hollow would enhance its base powers so that say, as in the non-canon episode, an Adjuchas-level imperfect Arrancar might be able to hold its own against a Vasto Lorde Hollow, but there's still no telling.


 * As for Vasto Lorde Espada being easily defeated by captains despite just VL Hollows (sic. not yet even Arrancar) supposedly being greater than at least an average captain is prob. more of a Kubo FAIL/retcon. Remember when the first Menos Grande (= Gillian) appeared, and Rukia said that it was "the jurisdiction of the Royal Elite" or whatever? We quickly went from that case to Gillian being easy for almost any Shinigami officer to kill. I think that Kubo just decided to completely sabotage the Menos, then Arrancar, then even Espada in terms of their threateningness and then anti-climactically leave only Aizen to smoke 5 captains in one page, much to many readers' regret... Adam Restling (talk) 05:44, August 9, 2011 (UTC)

"Kuumon" vs. Garganta et al.
Just randomly surfing through some interesting pages with *purdy* pictures (like this one for "Hollows") and following the helpful page references, and I discovered this element under the "Gillian" heading:

Gillians typically arrive in the Human World through the use of spatial distortions called Kūmon (空門, lit. "Air Gate").

I thought that such things always fell under "Garganta", even if Kubo maybe hadn't thought to borrow that word for it yet. So I checked the raw volume form of the chapter, and it has this:

TESSAI ''Tenchou. "Kuumon" ga... shuuren wo hajimemashita......!''

which means something like

"Shopkeep [what he calls Urahara]. The 'void/sky crest'... has begun the extraction/convergence......!"

The fact that Tessai places this term kuumon in quotation marks suggests that it's more a description than the actual term. I'm not sure exactly what the term signifies... perhaps just a term for the perceptible (at least to Urahara and company) warping of the sky that precipitates the opening of the Garganta, but such seems probable. But I also thought I'd bring it up because in any case, at least in the volume version, the Kanji aren't 空門 "void/sky gate", but 空紋 "void/sky crest/mark".

And not to belabor the point (esp. in a closed discussion), but in case anyone missed it/still wonders re: "Adjuchas": the translation "stone demon" apparently originated with the Spanish Wiki, which was apparently, in turn, citing data such as that contained in Gustav Davidson's A Dictionary of Angels including the fallen angels, in which Adjuchas is the "genius of rocks".

Frankly, I've no clear idea how fans and/or translators were able to deduce enough of this possible derivation to arrive at using the word Adjuchas, though I did find it listed on a Japanese website as having been used for an RPG monster, so maybe this was its circuitous path... Adam Restling (talk) 03:45, August 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * What a dunce-bag I am; this same data is already on this talk page, under the "Spanish?" prompt. Adam Restling (talk) 05:18, August 9, 2011 (UTC)

Unmasked Databook/Vasto Lorde
Hey guys, I think that the fanbook "Unmasked" has confirmed that Ulquiorra (at least) was a VL before becoming an Arrancar. Here's a link to the scans of the story in a youtube movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVcZoSOaEqA (I know it's a bad reference, but it's the content that matters). Whad do you think? Xfing (talk) 00:31, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

It was actually confirmed in "masked" that a good amount of the esapda are vasto lorde so its something already addressed i do believe. --Salubri (Talk)  00:47, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

Therefore what I suggest is expanding on the "appearance" section of the Vasto Lorde part of the article. "Unknown" doesn't actually reflect our knowledge, since we have already seen the VL forms for both Harribel and Ulquiorra (I'm not sure if Harribel's can be treated as canon though). Therefore we know quite a deal about the appearance of a VL. Xfing (talk) 00:06, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

"Masked" states that most Espadas were VLs.
(Page 133) Under the header 十刃　(Espada) "Among the various forms of Arrancar in Hueco Mundo exist a group whose skill and power is separate from the rest - the Espada. Practically all are the highest rank of Menos Grande - the "Vasto Lorde" level."

"ウエコムンドに数多存在するアランカルの中で、隔絶した能力と実力を持つ者たちー「十刃」である. 構成メン バーはメノスグランドの最上位である「ヴァストローデ」級がほとんど. "

I think this should be mentioned in this article. People are really confused about VLs, many think that a VL is "god-level" or whatever. This should clear things up for many visitors. Xfing (talk) 14:40, June 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * This is stated in reference to the Espada and it doesnt really state which ones. The confusion is addressed because it clearly seen that the power level of the espada who are viewed as possibly vasto lorde is based more on fan opinion then confirmed fact for most members. If anything a simple sentence noting that the a good amount where vasto lorde originally but where that classification ends is not known would be fine.--


 * Yeah, I'm not saying we can speculate which Espadas were VL, nor mention anything about it in their separate articles. But we can at least mention a single sentence in the VL section of this article. "According to the "Masked" Databook, most of the Espada were Vasto Lorde class Menos before becoming Arrancar". Or something to that tune. Xfing (talk) 11:13, June 26, 2013 (UTC)

Arrancars
It's mentioned that some Hollows retain intelligence. While this is true, when talking about Hollows in general, is it wise to directly refer to Nel Tu and Grimmjow, both Arrancars, as examples? Last I checked, Aizen created Arrancars; we wouldn't refer to the Visoreds abilities as "Some shinigami can wear hollow masks". Granted, Arrancars are shinigami-like hollows, shouldn't we use more relevant examples in describing their tendencies like Grand Fisher or Orihime's brother Sora (I might be wrong on the name) Savalric (talk) 05:24, November 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, Aizen did not create Arrancars, he facilitated the creation of more than would naturally exist using the Hogyoku!! but he did not create Arrancar and we already know that Grimmjow retained intelligence before becoming an Arrancar!! And we know Nel is an older member of the Espada and given we know Aizen swapped many aroudn there is no proof that she was created by Aizen, she certainly has no loyalty to him!! So the examples stand given they show two separate qualities in Hollow, one competitive and the other a pacifist unless given orders!!