Forum:Official Arrancar Discussions

Here you can discuss general topics about the Arrancar. Existing topics are listed below, but feel free to add new ones if what you want to discuss is not covered here already. Do not add create new forums about Arrancar, as they will be deleted and their content moved to the appropriate forums. Twocents 22:53, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Existing Topics
All of the following topics are still open and available for discussion. Twocents 22:53, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Arrancar Name Origins
The nomenclature for several of the Arrancar originate from real-world architects or designers. The following characters have their namesakes shown below, as well as the profession the real-world counterpart is notable for.


 * Starrk - Philippe Starck (French Designer)
 * Baraggan - Luis Barragan (Mexican Architect)
 * Harribel - Harry Bell Measures (English Architect)
 * Ulquiorra Cifer - Patricia Urquiola (Spanish Architect) and Father Hubert Schiffer (he was a survivor of the bomb of Hiroshima, Tite Kubo is from Hiroshima).
 * Nnoitra - Richard Neutra (Austrian-American Architect) [In Japanese, Nnoitra is pronounced Noitra very quickly, it sounds like Neutra.]
 * Grimmjow - Nicholas Grimshaw (English Architect)
 * Zommari Leroux - Gaston Leroux
 * Szayel Aporro - Alejandro Zaera Polo. (Spanish Architect)
 * Aaroniero - Eero Aarnio (Finnish Furniture Designer)
 * Luppi - Italo Lupi (Italian Architect)
 * Dordonii - Rodolfo Dordoni (Italian Architect)
 * Gantenbainne - (Architect)
 * Yylfordt - Rabbi Yeruchem Eilfort (American Architect)
 * Tesla - Nikola Tesla (Serbian Inventor, Mechanical and Electrical Engineer)
 * Pesche - Gaetano Pesce (Italian Architect and Designer)
 * Bawabawa - Geoffrey Bawa (Sri Lankan Architect)
 * Cuuhlhourne - Menno van Coehourn (17th century Dutch military architect and chief rival of the Marquis de Vauban)
 * Iceringer - Werner Aisslinger (20th century German furniture designer) --Unsigned Comment

Well, as a user pointed out, maybe not all of the Arrancar has had their name stem from an Architect, but you can definitely make the comparison. Right now, I don't know if it belongs in the articles or not, but for now, I think we can just move it all here. Arrancar109 19:42, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

If it's true and somebody can prove it then it belongs in the articles. The problem with it is that it has NO sources at all. I googled it and the only info that came up was that it was in a Shounen Jump interview. Which does not mean anything because many people have made fake interviews just to trick people. Drunk Samurai 00:36, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

There is actually even more I just saw. That was not the only thing on those articles. Where did that aspect of death thing come from? Where is the source on that? Drunk Samurai 18:39, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Barragan claims each Espada represents an aspect of death, and it is listed which Espada represents which aspect. But for some reason, some members see a need to match their personality traits with their death aspect. Arrancar109 19:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Read what I said on Salubri's talk page. It still needs to be sourced. Drunk Samurai 20:48, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not sure what you are on about with the aspect of death. They appeared in chapter 356, page 14. Is your complaint that the reference to the chapter and page is missing from the articles? Tinni 00:05, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about it. This was months ago, and I'm sure he's found it by now. I only recently edited this page anyway because someone found a name similarity for Zommari (which I was wondering if there was one for awhile now). Arrancar109 04:56, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

Tite Kubo has had a habit of naming arrancar after various contemporary designers and architects, and from my research Iceringer's name is derived from that of Werner Aisslinger, a German furniture designer - the Japanese spelling of "Iceringer" is identical to that of "Aisslinger." This guy's name might have even been romanized incorrectly to begin with. Mohrpheus 15:01, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Espada and the Vasto Lorde
I think the top 4, Ulquiorra-Stark, are vasto lordes simply because their resurreccións are very humanoid (with the exception of Barragan). Stark's resurrección doesn't even looks like he's an arrancar. --Agate genbu 15:13, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I think we need to put alot to rest on this subject. There is no proof and never was any proof that any current espada is an arrancar. No one can even say that they know truly what a vasto lorde looks like or what there powers are. All that was stated as a fact is that if a vasto lorde ever became an arrancar would most defiantly take a humanoid form over the likely chance of lover level hollow gaining a humanoid form. Nothing else more was given. Not to mention Ulquiorra is dead and nothing from the battle would really lead to much in the way of him being one, more then not a very powerful Adjuchas (which was always insinuated) as they can possibly have a humanoid form when they're hollows. Not to mention Grimmjaw, Sazeyl, Nnorita pretty much all had a humanoid like form after resureccion and for your concept to be valid barragan would have to be included. You would have to have some solid actual information about a vasto lorde of which there is little and doesnt really give any details on them, in order to determine who is one.Salubri 15:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Well that was just an opinion.--Agate genbu 15:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I have a few things to say:

1. Barragan is no exception. He's a human Skeleton, so very humanoid too.

2. Out of all we have seen Ulquiorra was the only one that was stronger than a Captain level vizard. So it's wrong to say that there are no hints that he might be a vasto lorde.

3. I think Wonderweiss is the only one who is a Vasto Lorde. Look at his Hollow form that we have seen when he was created. That was humanoid both in size and in shape and it even matches the example siloutte of a vasto lorde a bit.--Suzumushi 16:14, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Really I don't recall him fighting a captain level vizard, matter of fact you cant use that argument based on the fact that Ichigo only has a captain level spiritual power not the full set of skills nor does ichigo even know how to fully use his vizard powers other then putting on the mask. Now if Ulquiorra fought against Shinji or something then maybe. In fact all we know is ichigo (in whatever form) is more powerful then ulquiorra there is no proof Ulquiorra is more powerful then the top three (he hasnt fought them) or that ichigo can fight anyone else more powerful then ulquiorra (as we havent seen that either), the only thing anyone can go on is their fight, which only proves ulquiorra is very powerful in comparison to the espada ichigo has encountered so far and that ichigo eventually is more powerful then him, anything else is speculation if you put other people in it cause we havent seen how that would play out. also again no one knows what a vasto lorde can do or what they truly look like. Speculation all over the map if wonderweiss was a vasto lorde then where is the awesome power where is the intellect. All that is stated of him as a fact is that he has the spiritual power equal to that of the other espada thats all. Where are the facts stating anything besides he kinda looked like this. No one knows yet none of the speculation of opinion is based on facts its just what people want to happen. Now if something came out saying as much then that would be different but until then we don't know that and we have nothing solid to go on. Salubri 17:03, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Vasto Lordes are said to be stronger than captains by defeault, if they become arrancar the level must be over the roof. However, even if some of the Espada are forcing the captains to use their bankai, both seem to be fighting on equal terms. So, I don't think that the Vasto Lorde Espada have been unleashed yet. The Seaweed Ambassador 19:31, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

You cant use the battle between urrqura and ichigo for any sort of comparison though ichigo is of captain level it can be said that he has no form of control of his vizard power at all other than suppressing his hollow and calling his mask out. so you could not judge urrques level of power by how there battle went, we will just have to wait till the vizard arrive in to the fight to see how those who have mastered the vizard power can fight any left over espada and push them to the limits requiring transformation to a vasto lorde.


 * If a Espada wasn't a Vasto Lorde before becoming an Arrancar, it will not become a Vasto Lorde no matter how hard it is pushed. Based on Aizen's conversation with Gin, the Vasto lorde Espada have yet to be revealed. The Seaweed Ambassador 18:50, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

we haven't seen any of the top 4 espada before there transformation, nor have we seen any of them be killed only brought to situations with death appearing to be immanent (other than urqurra) so there potcal to have grater power is still there.

i think that Starrk, Barragan, Harribel, and Ulquiorra are vasto lordes. first clue, is that aizen has prohibited them to release their true form inside las noches. second clue is the power gap between Nnoitra and Ulquiorra. i mean Ichigo's equal with Zaraki(maybe more powerfull), and Ichigo almost died from Ulquiorra, but Zaraki killed Nnoitra with one hit. now the only thing that's strange, is that if these four are vasto lordes what the hell is Wonderweiss??


 * All of the current Espada are high-level Adjuchas, all of them were already complete and ready when Aizen first mentioned his intention to create the Vasto Lorde Espada. Wonderweiss is clearly superior to them in raw power, he may very well be the first Vasto Lorde Arrancar. The Seaweed Ambassador 18:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

yeah the only plausible arrancar to be a Vasto Lorde would be Wonderweiss and then thats not even supported by more than what he looked like when he was transformed into an arrancar. If the top four were Vasto LOrde they would be able to handle the captains no problem cuz not only are they strong when theyre vasto lorde theyed be stronger as arrancar. One eyed king 04:04, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

It might be that vasto lorde espada haven't been released. I remember there were other arrancar present at Los Noches, I know 3 were clearly seen, and some others that weren't. Espada 1-4 might be vasto lorde, but say these 3 visible ones were also vasto lorde, I think they're wave 2 for Aizen's attack. Seeing that he brought in Wonderweiss and that Superchunky thing, it looks like he had more than one wave planned, these extra Arrancar will probably come in to fight the Vizard. I don't think Aizen counted them out (he did not look shocked or anything to see Hirako alive), So more of these extra Arrancar will probably come out, odds are this'll cause Urahara and his crew to enter the battle later.

(sorry for the double post, but I'd like to tally these up) Hmm, the 3 extra arrancar I'll count. There are some silhouettes in this page: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/198/08/ 2 seen and a few possible ones here http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/198/09/ And one sitting near Harribel http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/198/10/ also 1 near the unknown, and 3 silhouettes. page 8 had 3 silhouettes. page 9 had possibly 5 shown. page 10 had 1 sitting near Harribel, 1 next to that one, and 3 silhouettes that makes 3 + 5 + 5 = 13. I should note that the presence of Grimmjow's Fraccion means these silhouettes may not all be espada-level. Aizen does know about the royal guard, maybe he has the extra group acting the same way, as a group outside the ranked Arrancar who are above the rest. The arrival of the Vizard brings 4 former captains and 4 lieutenants into the mix. Since Aizen brought out Wonderweiss, he must be planning in waves or have multiple backup plans, He took his top 3 Espada and their Fraccion to soften up (if not beat down) the remaining captains, now he's bringing in the next wave either as mop-up or as backup for the arrival of the Vizard.

while that is a decent theory im willing to bet that they were just in there to be there. with the exception of the ones on this page http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/198/09/ One eyed king 07:10, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Logic tells us that eventually an full set of new Vasto Lorde Espada will come into play, with Wonderweiss serving as an apetizer. I repeat myself over, the current Espada, including the top three, are not Vasto Lorde. Both Harribel and Stark have animal-themed releases, which is something seen in Adjuchas, if the Primera is an Adjucha then so must be the second regardless of his bizarre form. Kubo still needs to bring the Royal Guard and Urahara's posse into play. Somehow Aizen will either suceed in creating a new key or find the old one in order to adavance the story, and he will need the strongest possible minions by that point. The Seaweed Ambassador 03:28, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

You missed one, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/229/12-13/ right under Harribel.Saimaroimaru 19:34, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that the top two espada (Starrk and Barragan) are the only Vasto Lorde in the Espada, because of their Resurreccións. Not only are their forms completely humanoid (Barragan is, he just has a really poofy robe on), which is something common to all the espada from higher than Grimjow, but their forms have a humanoid motif (Starrk is a gunslinger, Barragan is a grim reaper with a human skeleton), whereas the rest of the Espada have an animal or other non-humanoid motif (Harribel is like a shark, Ulquiorra is like a bat, Nnoitra is like an ant or insect, Grimjow is like a panther, Zommari is like a sea urchin or something else weird, Szael Apporo is just plain odd but defiantly not human-like, Aaroniero is some type of Octopus or alien). I would also guess wonderweiss is a Vasto Lorde, given what he looked like in the bandages and the mystery surrounding him, but I don't have as much evidence for that. gamerxl 14:09, 11 July 2009 (EST)

All the current Espada are Adjuchas, with the exception of Aaroniero Arruruerie who was a Gillian. There is no real proof that any of the Espada are in fact Vasto Lorde. Even though the Espada ranked from Cuatra to Primera are not allowed to release in Hueco Mundo, that does not mean they are Vasto Lorde. They were probably just high-powered Adjuchas, as Aizen stated he wished to gather The V. Lorde to perfect the Espada. Whether he has or not is unknown at this time. Plus, just because they have a human-shaped resurrecion doesn't really mean they can't be Adjuchas. Adjuchas come in varying shapes and sizes so its not impossible that they are just Adjuchas. A better way to look at it is that they MAY have been the ones closest to reaching the V. Lorde form, since their forms were more human than lower-ranked Espada. It's just a hunch.--Moe1216 05:03, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Saimaroimaru, the link you posted with the "Vasto Lorde" under Harribel is Nnoitra. Have you forgotten so soon? Nick4444 17:08, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

If Stark and Barragan are Vasto Lorde's then wouldn't that make Yammy one as well?

Who knows? He was pretty much a chump before releasing. Anyways, if this idea of 10 Vasto Lordes coming into play is true.. wow, SS is in serious trouble. Only the Vizards will be able to bash them. I can see it coming. Would be a nice plot twist. But I wonder if they'll fit them right there all at once or maybe after Aizen get his way to the Royal King's dimension.. hmm Deimonos 17:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The idea of the Espada Lorde is an awesome idea, but I doubt anything will come of it until Starrk, Barragan, Tia, and fatty fatty 2x4 can fit through the kitchen door are dead, and that's even if Aizen has managed to come in contact with the Vasto Lorde and convinced them to join him.--Moe1216 19:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I have a feeling Wonderweiss is the only Vasto Lorde Arrancar because of how Stark regards him, how Aizen was speaking about collecting the Vasto Lorde as though he did not have one yet (which I believe is before Wonderweiss appeared) and the fact that they are said to be exceedingly rare.

When I say "How Stark regards him," I mean when Wonderweiss appears and Stark says, "If Wonderweiss is here, that means Aizen is sick of waiting." Reading that sentence, it sounds to me as if Stark sees Wonderweiss as like a secret weapon of Aizens and is more dangerous then himself.

Also, since Vasto Lordes are supposed to be rare, I have a feeling that Aizen would take matters into his own hands to speed things up and start helping in creating Vasto Lordes. He is able to control Gillian and hollows evolve by eating other hollows, right?

░▓█╟╘╪°ºƧѻџzסּᵾˢђᾳº°╪╛╢█▓░ 07:25, 24 July 2009 (UTC) ~Souzousha

vaste lordes are similiar to humans in size and shape, that does not mean they have to be human look-a-likes, and as stated many times before by others, vaste lordes should all ready be able to defeat a captain level foe, after transforming into an arrancar, they should be even more powerfull, but none of the espada are stronger than captains so, why would aizen turn creatures, as powerful as he is, if not even more powerfull into something inferior to a vaste lorde so i dont think vaste lords have been shown yet, espcially since yammy, number 0 is the strongest of all espada, which would be impossible if hes a adjucass, while 1-4 are vaste lordes

and about wonderweiss, his reiatsu level is as much as that of an espada, that doesnt mean he is as powerfull as they are, which should prove he isnt a vaste lorde either, eventhough this is just a mere speculation, (since a vaste lorde is superior to captain level shinigami in terms of strength and speed, nothing is said about their reiatsu)

the same could be said about ichigo's reiatsu level versus those of the captains while ichigo did manage to defeat byakuya and zaraki, (against byakuya, it was because of the hollow, and zaraki had injuries, nor using both hands or using full power, just the removal of the eye-patch), he doesnt have the reiatsu level anywhere near that of zaraki, but yet did manage to beat him, so the reiatsu level doesnt mean anything so this shoudl prove that ichigo has the reiatsu level of a captain, he probably cant stand up to them when fighting them without the use of the hollow mask, and that closes the supposedly big gap between number 4 and 5, meaning that number 3 and 4 arent a vaste lorde, still possible for the number 1 and 2 though but there is something interesting about the number 1 and 2 epsada, they were human like before meeting aizen to begin with, i dont know what the deal is, but theres probably a big thing behind it

feel free to pm me about any part of this, cause i may have made a mistake somewhere bacuse of the length of the text

There seemed to be some Silhouette of a arrancar or possibly a vasto lorde on episode 8 during the first parts of the episode

Actually that is a Silhouette of the Grand Fisher Arieus 02:42, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Are the Espada Vasto Lorde?or hasn't any been shown yet?Saiyan16 18:59, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * The classification of most of the members of the Espada has not been confirmed. There are no confirmed Vasto Lordes. -- Yyp  (Talk)  20:15, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

In episode 148,Ashido states that there are Vasto Lorde class Menos in Las Noches.So,doesn't it signify that at least some of the espada are vasto lorde?Saiyan16 14:50, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Better Villains
The discussion on that page became very long and unwieldy, and has thus been closed on that page. If anyone would like to continue the discussion here, they may do so. Twocents 22:57, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

We do definetly need to see more of the good guys getting picked off and finally showing a weakness. Also, the reason the FKT Arc in my opinion one of the best is because we get to see more characters involved in fights then Ichigo (who does annoy me.) Killing off good guys shouldnt be an issue any more when it comes to stories. I mean, remember in FFVII when Sephiroth knocked off Aeris? Did that not make him all the more badass? And what about Gin, I dont think anyone saw that coming and suddenly Gin's kickass meter shot up because he was a baddie who finally actually did something! If constant threats are hyped up about and we all know, well their going to die because Soul Society manages to always save the day and kill everyone who threatens it, it makes the story much more bland. Remember when Byakuya rocked Renji and all that blood shot out of him? Renji dying there would of been absolutely fine in my opinion and would of been acceptable (it definetly would of hyped the Ichigo/Byakuya fight even more.) Ukitake, Hiyori, Chad and maybe even Ishida getting knocked off would spice up the story in a lot of ways because, well, no one would be considered safe. KamikazeNewf 00:40, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Aizen's prety up himself. He's got the same power level as Ichigo (twice captain level), but he still says that about 10 of the Gotei 13 and vizard in FKT dont stand a chance, plus that Urahara, Ishiin, Ryuken, Tessai and Yoruichi (all as strong as a captain according to this wiki) haven't joined in yet. I think he's gonna get owned unless he calls for some backup (Vasto Lorde in the wings!!).

New Developments
The discussion on that page became very long and unwieldy, and has thus been closed on that page. If anyone would like to continue the discussion here, they may do so. Twocents 22:53, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Surviving Espada
man those Espada's drop like dead flys. so whats going happen to Grimmjow and Yammy?. to me I think those two are going die. sooner or later Eliskuya2 17:56, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Of course. Villains tend to die in Bleach. What saddens me is that the top espada wasn't even as powerful as a single captain using shikai. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) 22:00, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Tia's death wasn't confirmed. Grimmjow is unknown, really. So that leaves 3(?) Espada still alive. Ryūketsu Namida 22:21, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Your right, Tia Harribel isn't confirmed dead just yet. We'll have to wait next week to find out. As for Yammy, he doesn't have much time left on him. The Divine One

I'm also disappointed that Starrk couldn't draw out Kyoraku's bankai, but look at it this way, every other captain (bar kenpachi) has needed bankai to kill the other espada, yet Kyoraku is so powerful that he can do it with a shikai. Really, this fight was more about showcasing Kyoraku's immense power rather than the Primera. As for Yammy, I'm backing Unohana to do him in. BollyW 23:18, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

I think Grimmjow is going trun aganist Aizen and also I think Aizen haves one ace of a card for Ichigo I can feel it, Eliskuya2 00:47, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

I vote for Unohana to kill Yammy as well. She's the only Captain who hasn't seen significant battle yet, and the fact that in the Soul Society arc there were seated officers from 11th division who were frightened out of their minds of her is an indication of what she can (presumably) do. And Grimmjow turning against Aizen at some point actually makes sense. His ambition seems to be to become the king of Hollows, and if he wants to do that then he'll naturally have to kill the current man who sits on the white throne of Las Noches, namely Sosuke Aizen. Ulyenov 00:55, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

That's fine but it's pretty bad manners to delete someones edit on a forum page, especially when it wasn't rude or cruel. I'll repeat myself. Grimmjow exists to prove his strength, that's his purpose in life. So he'll turn against Aizen if he thinks he can win. And he's not that stupid. Also he's really injured if not dead now so it's kinda mute until he's healed up. As for Aizen, his ace in the hole was sealing them in Hueco Mundo and leaving them to the not too tender mercies of the hollows. Really, I think Aizen has everything right where he wants it. BollyW 00:57, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Ace of a hole - a stronger hollow, thats what I mean. with a bankai and the final part of bleach with evey Soul sctety Captain, dead and the final fight beagains with Aizen and IchigoEliskuya2 01:17, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Every soul society captain dead? Well it's an interesting idea, I'd rather see an epic fight between Aizen and Urahara. I love watching Ichigo fight but he doesn't deserve to finish Aizen as much as Shinji or Urahara do. And we still don't know about Wonderweiss, maybe he's holding back because he doesn't fully understand the vizards. Who knows, but I would be truly surprised to see all the captains, or even most of the captains die. I could see Komamura or even Yama dieing but the others...just doesn't sit with me as a storyline thing. BollyW 01:22, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

I argee. we never seen kenpachi's bankai,Urahara's bankai and Aizen's too so I think there is going be one heck of a fight right BollyW?, and also I think the ending is not going be cool. someone is going be takeing Aizen's place if he dies Eliskuya2 01:31, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Oh I think the potential for epic fight is massive. We haven't seen a lot of bankai's yet, and at least one arrancar release. So it's gonna be crazy. I just don't know how it's gonna pan out, as I honestly didn't see Harribel's death coming like that, so all my previous ideas about what was going to happen are pretty much useless. Dunno about Aizen though, if/when he dies there's gonna be a massive power vacuum to fill in Hueco Mundo. Lot's of hollows given the chance to rise up... BollyW 01:35, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

what about Gin and Kaname?, I think those two well live on a plan life without aizen heheh. anyway I was shocked about tia harribel's death o_OEliskuya2 01:50, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Kensei is designed to be a close fighter, hand-to-hand badass, then an assassin's dagger fits clearly his style. It would be fun if his bankai resembles boxing gloves. Lisa's weapon...well, there is not lot of spears in bleach, then to see one sometime is refreshing. Besides it is the forth one (if no mistakes: Madarame, Kaien, Noitra) to be shown so far. Why only Chinese weapons?! Baronofash 10:54, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with most of you guy's and gal's. I think Koraku's ability to kill the top Espada without a bankai, was a perfect way to show the power of the top soul society captains and a sign of battles to come. I think we're about 50 issues away from a Uahara and Aizen show down though.

About Kyoraku killing Starrk with just Shikai, it was a fluke. Kyorakus shikai ability was the whole reason he was able to deliver a blow that critical, but i suppose it was his Shunpo expertise that allowed him to get that close in the first place. Tip my hat to him.--Ulquiorra Wannabe128 19:08, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

In all fairness Kyoraku had to play by the rules as well, so to defeat the Primera Espada in a sword duel like that is a testament to his speed and swordsmanship, especially when you consider that he was at one tenth of his full power. BollyW 06:56, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

Starrk, Harribel and the Aftermath
The discussion on that page became very long and unwieldy, and has thus been closed on that page. If anyone would like to continue the discussion here, they may do so. Twocents 22:53, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation About the Vasto Lorde
I read some threads on some forums about the Vasto lorde, for example Ulquiorra susceptible to be one VL, or Grimmjaw, or else. The hints were their power levels, their size and their human form. Nevertheless, Vizard is a shinigami who obtains hollow power and espada/arrancar is a hollow who obtains shinigami powers; that said, we could see vizard via hollowfication turning more beast shaped (hollow influence), and arrancar via shinigamification more human shaped (shinigami influence). Taking grimmjaw example, his body's upper part looked very human but the lower one was definitely animal, you can see him running like a cat. For Ulquiorra, he has wings seeming that he flies like a bat, yet, animal referenced. Vasto Lordes are said to look human sized, does it mean they have no animal attributes or references? Until now all arrancars or espadas were referenced to animals or monsters except maybe Barragan and Stark (Harribel sword looks very sharky). But what is a Vasto Lorde? I definitely don't know, just wait until they appear...Baronofash 00:01, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

is it just me is Starrk a WOLFStark Toshiro 00:08, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

The way to distinguish a Vasto Lorde from the lower classes of Menos is that they had a humanoid appearance before they were turned into Arrancar. So far, the Espada seem to be made from Adjuchas-level Menos with the exception of #9, Aaroniero Arruruerie, who professed that he was the last remaining Gillian-level Arrancar within the ranks of the Espada, and even then only because he had the capacity for infinite evolution. The only other Espada we've seen thus far in the anime (I have yet to reach the Arrancar arcs in the manga, sorry) who has revealed their time before Aizen was Grimmjow, who was a Panther at the time. While most Adjuchas tend to be bulky and large, he was starting to approach the Vasto Lorde level considering his sleek and relatively small demeanor.

Although I don't know personally about Barragan, I have heard that he was the ruler of Hueco Mundo before Aizen appeared, and that may indicate that he might a Vasto Lorde depending on his appearance previous to his exposure to the Hougyoku.

However, it does appear that Resurrećion forms are directly related to the Menos-level of the Arrancar. The lower Espada exhibit traits of sea-creatures with little intelligence and no nervous system (octopus, parasitic worm, sea urchin) and as you move up the ranks, the forms begin to progress closer through the ranks of mammals toward human form. So far, every Resurrećion has involved something from nature, however, so I can only surmise that they are all Adjuchas level or lower.

That said, it will be interesting to see what Wonderweiss's true form is. Yukikosakura 06:14, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

-So far, every Resurrećion has involved something from nature, however, so I can only surmise that they are all Adjuchas level or lower.- The higher ones don't really have much animal stuff. One of 'em is pretty much a human with armor bits and a sword even.

-Although I don't know personally about Barragan, I have heard that he was the ruler of Hueco Mundo before Aizen appeared, and that may indicate that he might a Vasto Lorde depending on his appearance previous to his exposure to the Hougyoku.- Barragan looks the exact same before and after hougyoku.

The pic of vasto lorde shown during Toshiro's explanation has Ulquiorra's headdress, too. I'm pretty sure that 4-up at least are vasto lorde. ZeroSD 19:57, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Espada & Animality
Thinking about the espadas' animal or beast references, I listed some espadas and privarons:
 * 1) Privarons
 * 2) Dordoni - bull + peacock heads
 * 3) Cirucci - swallow
 * 4) Gantenbein - Pill millipedes or shrimp
 * 5) Espadas
 * 6) stark - wolf? (ceros)
 * 7) harribel - shark(shoulders and weapon)
 * 8) barragan - grimm reaper (body)
 * 9) nel - Centaurus (body)
 * 10) ulquiorra - bat (body)
 * 11) noitra - coleoptera (body)
 * 12) grimmjow - jaguar (body)
 * 13) zommari - sea urchin (body)
 * 14) apollo - sea anemone or chrysaora (body)
 * 15) aaroniero - octopus (body)
 * 16) yammi - pachyderm (body)

It is interesting to notice that only Stark and Barragan to not be or less referred to an animal other than power (Stark) or even none (Barragan). In fact, Stark could be referred to a wolf via the fur (coat and legs). But nothing concerning Barragan, except his fraccions. What does it mean? I don't know but maybe signifying that Barragan is peculiar and unique. Ace of Spade 07:42, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Plus, Ulquiorra really looks to Date Masamune (for the crescent moon design) and to Shiva/Kali (for the numerous arms). Concerning Yammi, his feet and skin look like those of pachyderms or dinosaurs (ankylosaurus-like)...Ace of Spade 07:54, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Well, you could also say that Syazel (#8) also resembles a parasitic worm of some sort, especially considering his power to invade his enemy's internal organs and destroy them one by one.

Also, I'm not sure what a coleoptera is, but Nnoitra's animal likeness is definitely the praying mantis.

Grimmjow is more aptly a panther than a cougar.

Depending on how the anime artists decide to depict Barragan's Resurrecćion, they might give him some aspect of a shelled creature considering his bone-like exterior. Perhaps a armadillo or even better, a horned beetle (considering his crown). We shall see.

This seems to hold true with Shinigami as well. Yukikosakura 23:29, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Aspect of Death:Luppi
Having been Luppi an Espada (even if temporarily)according to you which is the aspect of death that represents?For me the most probable are:vanity, lust, envy and sloth(pride and gluttony decidedly are not for him).--Hcaelb 01:57, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Can someone answer to my question?--Hcaelb 06:51, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It is unknown which aspect of death he would have been, since we dont really no to much on the subject. All we know as that each of the current Espada represents those especific aspects but no clarification as if is becuase of who they are or the rank they hold. Also vanity, lust, envy an so on are the 7 deadly sins and while they do have the word death i personally don't see them as aspects of daeth. WhiteStrike 07:08, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

This is just my opinion, but, judging by what Barragan said, the ten aspects of death listed (Loneliness, Aging, Sacrifice, Nihilism, Despair, Destruction, Intoxication, Madness, Greed and Rage) are unique, and an Espada must fit into one of them, because they are "The 10 reasons why humans die". The way he said it left me the impression that those 10 aspects or reasons are unique and that there are no other than those. Maybe Wonderweiss Margera doesn't fit into any of them, and because of that he remains a Numero, but that's just another theory. And the ones you mention, for the record, are more oriented towards the Seven Sins. As for Luppi, I'm almost sure that Aizen put him there just to infuriate Grimmjow, because he was clearly weaker than Grimmjow. Lia Schiffer 07:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I see vanity as a aspect of death, many people in the world die because of the vanity. In the case of Nelliel i think her aspect is panic, if you see her react when she saw Pesche and Dondochakka without their masks, she becomes mad and you can see the fear in her face. Madness + fear = panic. In my country, about 4 or 6 women dies because of the vanity, a girl with 20 years die because of the vanity. User:Nagisahime 02:05, 13 July 2009

What is Cero?
I've noticed that the being using Cero has to charge the Cero, then fire it. Is it similar to a Quincy's Arrows in that it uses spiritual energy in the air, or is from the being's self?--Kylecharmed 19:36, September 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't believe it has ever actually been stated how it works. But it always seemed to me to be a combination of the users power as well has power pulled in from the atmosphere (hence the charge lines). But only the author knows for sure at this point. --Yyp 19:43, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

I personally think that they concentrate their spiritual energy on a certain part of the body (whereever they prefer to shoot their Cero out), then they build up their energy, and they fire their Cero. But again, it's my personal opinion and like Yyp said, only the author knows for sure. --Gold3263301 20:28, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

Sonido
I have a theory. It think the difference between sonido and shunpo is that sonido is performed using smaller, but with many steps, and shunpo is performed with larger, but less numerous steps. Thats why starrks sonido is unique; he uses large leaps and bounds at a fast rate, which makes the distance he covers during sonido that much greater.--Ulquiorra Wannabe128 12:43, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Arrancar creation
Do we really have any evidence of Aizen actually using the Hougyoku to create Arrancar other than Wonderweiss Margera? Because the implied period between his defection and the first Arrancar invasion seems too short for his "current" Arrancar army, both Espada and Numeros, to have only been created within that span of time. MarqFJA 20:18, January 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Shawlong stated that the numeros were born via the Hogyoku and given numbers in order of their birth . So, yeah, according to him they did have it used on them. -- Yyp  (Talk)  21:31, January 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, let me make sure I got this right: Aizen used the Hōgyoku 80+ times to create the current Numeros, and among them, some qualified for Espada rank, Grimmjow being one of them. If Nnoitra's words are to be taken at face value, however, both he, Nelliel and Szayel Apporo (at the very least) served as Espada long before Aizen's official betrayal of Soul Society, and thus were "naturally-born" Arrancar; even then, Aizen had some way of "giving more power" to Nnoitra (a flashback has him showing gratitude about that "fact"). And Aaroniero himself admits to being the last of the original Espada, implying that the group had existed for possibly as long as Aizen had ruled Las Noches, and that the ranks had changed regularly. Thus, not all of the Espada are Hōgyoku-created, and in fact perhaps only a very few of them are.

The above conversation was moved from the Hougyoku talk page. Now about what's actually being discussed, there is no reason not to take Nnoitra at face value. He said Nel had left "years ago", so Nel had left years ago. There is no reason Nnoitra would lie about something like that. So yes, there were arrancar and espada long before Aizen got his hands on the Hougyoku. How they were created is anyones guess. We did see an arrancar creation without the Hougyoku, Grandfisher. But Grandfisher was created with the help of other hollows and Aizen wasn't present as far as we can tell. Dondorii says that it was known that if the Hougyoku was recovered then it was understood that all the previous espada would be useless, however, most the espada were still non-Hougyoku created and even Starrk was a natural born arrancar. Gimmjow who was Hougyoku created was only no. 6. So if I had to make a guess, I would say that what is being implied is that the Hougyoku gave Aizen the power to create Arrancar en-mass but that doesn't mean that every arrancar created with it was going to be uber powerful (case in point, Di-Roy who was created with the Hougyoku but was fairly useless). So you could say that maybe Aizen moved too fast. Maybe he should have waited a few more months, tried to get more powerful arrancar. But then again, Urahara had been ordered to get a garganta working and so it seems clear that Soul Society wasn't planning on just sitting back and waiting for Aizen to attack. They were always going to send in their captains to Heuco Mundo as soon as the Garganta was ready. Aizen probably knew that. So it's a complicated equation and the possibility still exists that Aizen might have more arrancar to throw at the Gotei 13. We'll have to wait and see. Tinni  (Talk)  12:32, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

This is something that has always confused me too. I would like to know when Aizen went to Hueco Mundo to overthrow Barragan.Here is my wildly speculative theory on the Esapada's creation:

Aizen, Gin and Tosen travel to Heuco Mundo and visit Barragan. There are no elite espada protecting Barragan so we can assume they are not officially a group then.

Aizen then begins finding Arrancar who are particularly powerful and assembles them into a group including Dordonii, Cirruci and Nel. Aizen meets Starrk who he immediately notes as sumpremely powerful.

The Espada in turn continue to find other arrancar for Fraccion including Sayzel, Dondochakka and Pesche.

At some point Nnorita makes his move against Nel along with Sayzel which throws her out, earns Nnorita a promotion and gains Sayzel a place in the 10.

Aizen gathers the Hogyoku, creates the numeros and gives Barragan the extra power he promised. the more powerful of the numeros like grimmjow push out the less powerful espada creating the Privaron, who although no longer in the main ten are a serous cut above the rest.

hows that? feel free to pick apart, i can't really put a finger on any other espada that those i mentioned but with the timescales that are in place that is what makes sense to me.Nick D Wolfwood 16:50, January 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not quite. The Espada were never implied to be in the service of anyone other than Aizen, least of all Baraggan. Aaroniero was the last remaining member of the original Espada. Don't you think Baraggan would have been mentioned if he was there from the start. The Espada clearly pre-date Baraggan's recruitment. And we have no indication of how old the Espada are, or how many times their membership changed. It is entirely possible that Cirucci & co were not members of the original Espada either. Consequently, the Privaron Espada could have existed for a very long time. Baraggan was recruited sometime before the trio defected from Soul Society (as evidenced by the outfits they were wearing and the fact that Aizen had his glasses and SS-era hairstyle). Nnoitra stated that Nelliel had been missing from Las Noches for years. Starrk was recruited after the defection, i.e. within the past two months of the storyline (note the outfit Aizen is wearing, the post-SS era hairstyle and the lack of glasses). Therefore, Starrk was not around when Nelliel was an Espada. I'm sure someone else can explain that better than I can, but that is the gist of it. -- Yyp (Talk) 21:11, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

ok, so how exactly are arrancar created and what are they ways of doing this. i am having a tough time understanding. if the natural progression of hollows are hollow > menos > adjuchas > vasto lorde, and arrancars are a sidestep somewhere in between all of that, how are they created naturally without the use of the hogyoku? how would a hollow taking off its mask gain shinigami powers? does everyhollow that take off its mask gain immediate shinigami powers and a zanpakuto?? can someone please explain the process of a hollow being transformed into a arrancar naturally, then the process of a hollow being transformed into an arrancar artificially with the hogyoku. please in detail i am confused. how did Aizen create arrancar without the hogyoku? the privaron espada were supposudly "naturally" created as said by dordonii in his first appearence. how do they naturally occur?


 * The natural progression of a Hollow is a evolutionary process based primarily on devouring other Hollows to gain more power. The different evolutionary steps are derived from the Menos Hollows (Gillian => Adjuchas => Vasto Lorde). The Arrancar are either one of these three hollow evolutions who are basically hollows who have removed their hollow masks (a rare and uncommon thing to do). Yes it does occur nautrally and apparently is something known to the Shinigami but they apparently arent alot in number nor are they normally dangerous enough to pose a significant threat to the Gotei 13. How this actually goes about naturally is never fully explained by gaining the will and intellect to remove the mask most likely the process. The important concept is that once one becomes an arrancar they are removed from the evolutionary process where they were at when they became an arrancar. (i.e. a adjuchas who becomes an arrancar will never be able to evolve past that point, because arrancar don't evolve. Unless your aaroniero).

As Shown an Arrancar doesn't actually possess Shinigami powers they just gain a humanoid form and a "zanpakuto" but its one in name only it is just their true hollow power sealed away in the form of sword. Largely their powers are hollow based. Such as cero, bala, sonido. These abilities are unique to them much like the abilities of their resereccion which are also unique which is similar to a shinigami's zanpakuto in that respect.

As far as a hollow becoming an arrancar via the Hogyoku the best example to date is Wonderweiss which was shown. The hogyoku basically breaks down the barrier seperating the power of shinigami and hollow which exists in any soul (shinigami-good/hollow-bad). It would seem to work by basically allowing the user to bestow unique powers on hollows by making them arrancar. What effect it has on natuarl arrancar is unknown but apparently the results aren't as good as just starting from scratch.

As far as Aizen creating them. It apparently seems that he just rounded up powerful hollows and natural arrancar originally. From the flash backs Starrk himself seemed to be a natural arrancar by time he meets aizen which apparently takes place a little after aizen is flees soul society. Where his interaction with Baraggan who seems to also already be an arrancar seems to take place sometime when he is still unsuspected and a captain. The only ones he has noted to actually have made are wonderweiss and rubbadon. Possibly Grimmjows faccion and the others faccion. Possibly the 7th Espada. Its never stated who he just happened upon or if they were made by him. Salubri (Talk)  03:27, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Grimmjow, his faccion and some of Barragan's were pretty much confirmed to be created with the Hogyoku through their profiles. They all had an "arrancar" number. Which as Shawlong noted, were only given to arrancar created using the Hogyoku. Barragan himself seems to have been modified by Aizen. He did mention "you will regret the power you gave me". So... Tinni   (Talk)  04:13, January 22, 2010 (UTC)