Forum:Better Villains (Thread Closed)

Okay, I have been reading bleach for quite a few years now, and this is just annoying the daylights out of me. Why in the heck are the good guys made so uber powerful that the antagonists can't even kill one!? I mean, come on. Whoo, they're captains. So what? A real baddy would have killed off at least four of those captains if they were worth all this preparation. The Soul Society kept making a giant deal out of the Espada and look what's happened, five are already dead, one is incapacitated, the fatty 10th now is the cero espada, which is a load of crap, and the top three aren't living up to their hype. Seriously, why is it just a slaughter fest full of almighty espada being made into punching bags? Someone please explain.--Moe1216 19:51, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

My gripe is we know practically nothing about the big guns; For the main villian, we hardly ever see Aizen. I'd like to know his history, and how he reacts to setbacks; it'd just add more depth to him (coz he is getting a bit stagnant now imo). And what about Gin; is he more powerful than he appears? Why does he really follow Aizen? Plus, why are those 2 just stood there when they could be joining in the fight? At least Tosen is getting stuck in. TomServo101 20:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

You are singing to the choir Tomservo101. Aizen keeps acting all dang high and mighty, but he hasn't done anything to prove that he is all that powerful. Why is he doing these things? We haven't been given a reason why he is doing this or why Gin is with him. All we know is he wants to rule Soul Society. He needs more character depth and to get off his high horse and fight like Tosen.--Moe1216 21:12, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I would concur. Just earlier today, I was rereading the fight between Ulquiorra and Hollow/Ichigo aqnd I still feel complete disbelief that despite the fact that he should have died multiple times, Ulquiorra is the "loser" of the battle, while Ichigo is completely unscathed. I guess Tite has issues with offing the good guys, but it's complete bull the stuff they can survive, while the enemies die from much lesser wounds. (Another example, Rangiku survives having half of her chest ripped out, while Nirrge dies from being hit by a rock in the head.) Twocents 21:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Well id say that not all storylines are built around characters dying. Ive seen plenty a anime where maybe one support character dies and that doesn't change the story much and then majority of the deaths either take place in the past which u see through flashbacks or there are a large amount of unimportant characters to the storyline that end up dead despite the fact that they maybe entirely innocent. I personally dont understand the fascination with everyone dying off just because they are good. I mean i like some of the protagonists but i also realize they are to serve a role and when the role is up they will die and the story will go on without them cause they are not the point of the storyline. Now ive said previously that if you can recall for at least 2 arcs the storyline was primarily about Ichigo against the shinigami trying to get back rukia. So at one point they were the protagonists. The difference is after the fact they were allies. Also you have to take into account the captains are integral part of the storylines. Everything in the storylines in one way or another deal with soul society. The captains are the only line of defense that soul society has without them there is no story to be had because ichigo cant do everything, hes not as powerful as he is portrayed at times, he doesnt have all the knowledge or information (all that you can probably dont need for the main character/s to push the story in a couple of different anime/manga but not in bleach, sorry). Also his friends are basically useless verse the current level of bad guy. So who are you left with. I would stop pushing for death in storyline, especially being that 99% of the characters are technically dead (souls). Are there defeats sure, should there be more probably, i mean its through defeat that you learn to better if you survive. I think the captains cant maintain peak efficiency and power by just drifting around at the top sometimes you got to get your hands dirty. The general i think has had his share of wins and defeats so im not concerned, as with age comes wisdom. But some other characters need to be put to the test. Besides strong hollows these arrancar are perfect to place themselves against. If the question is how the all powerful espada and arrancar have been losing. I'd say its simple plain arrogance, they think themselves far to superior and underestimate their opponents. The basic point is if the captains fall then what happens to soul society and if soul society falls then thats the end of the world. It all goes back to the concept of why there are no more quincy. They disrupted the balance. At the end of the day the arrancar are beings that much like the quicny shouldnt exist. Also notice not to much preparation seems to have gone into the arrancar or espada you just mix hollow with shinigami and there you got it. They barely have much in the way of backstories and most arent redeemable (sans nel and her faccion). I mean defeats are taking place. Soifon her entire arm, i dont know how much worse that can get you never saw it coming and its soifon after all. The lieutenants got owned in the end, with a few exceptions. If you notice the question of captain vs espada has largely came and gone. The espada are now primarily against the vizard which are the exact opposite of the arrancar. So it makes sense if the top 3 get taken out now, but i do think the gang up 2-3 on one is completely unnecessary. Seeing as the captains went one on one with them. So in all fairness i dont agree with that. But how long before the arrancar have we been with the current characters/captains. They are integral characters. Though i think Orihime as weak as she is can be killed off now that makes more sense its when the weak and innocent get killed that the story moves if thats what your looking for. If you can recall a good amount of people in soul society including ichgio and friends have a good connection with her. so her being gone for good would really take it to another level. But other then that personally defeats are good enough. Cause at the end of the day the arrancar or espada will be replaced with a even more powerful enemy. But i do agree tomservo. Im in all honesty not feeling aizen any longer hes boring now and his prior knowledge is not beliavable to me at this point not that it ever was. but gin is still interesting and im glad tosen is finally getting whats coming to him. Salubri 21:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the support people! It's just that most people's gripes seem to be the unbalanced casualties, I dislike the fact that Aizen seemingly doesn't have a personality; at least Gin's a smartmouth...

Back to the point, yes we do seem to have an issue with poor characterisation of the Arrancar. I can understand he has deadlines to meet, but they may as well be bog-standard Hollows for all the individuality should be showing and don't. I also want to see what their aspect of death means to Starrk and Harribel, as I don't think they've elaborated yet.

I too want to see some captains (or even lieutenants) get the heave-ho. They all seem a little 'come-what-may' about their allies/friends, so what'll be their reaction when one of their own gets it? We saw a little of that with Yama-jii, but I'd like to see genuine grief, and hopefully a captain or two really cutting loose. TomServo101 22:02, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

"I personally dont understand the fascination with everyone dying off just because they are good." -- Salubri

I don't think that's it at all. Rather it seems people are growing weary with a story that never seems to seriously endanger its protagonists, they are immune to any real consequences and therefore become boring or even unbelievable. Over the lifespan of Bleach Tito has created a vast cast of good guy characters...but I can't remember ANY significant deaths among their ranks. They ALWAYS bounce back no matter how severe a beating they take or they have unbelievable luck and survive impossible circumstances.

Now this is high powered fantasy so you are going to have some of that. But a storyline that is never willing to change or shake things up isn't any better than killing off good characters willy nilly. It just stagnates as each new 'life & death' crisis simply becomes wash, rinse, repeat. Take Hitsuguya and Momo, for example. As interesting as Hitsuguya's relationship with Momo is its not really anything central to the main characters. Tito could of left Momo dead on the floor of the Chamber and Hitsugaya would still be motivated by guilt and rage to track down and kill Aizen. Nothing essential to Hitsugaya's storyline would of altered but we, the audience, would have a sense of urgency and suspense that Bleach now lacks on some level. Its important for the good guys to lose big sometimes. It makes them INTERESTING.

Note that a carefully considered death among the ranks of the good guys in order to promote a good story isn't the same as wanting characters killed off just because they are good guys. Nor is it saying we need to kill off main characters.

Secondly...yeah...I agree that Aizen needs to be fleshed out a bit more. I was expecting a Aizen background episode over a hundred episodes ago. Tito could lose a fight scene or two and do more with character building. Great Cthulhu 22:33, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. It isn't that I'd like characters to be off'd willy-nilly. I just think it actually ruins the story a bit when the good guys survive anything and everything, when bad guys who are supposed to be on par or even stronger than they are get off'd in unlikely (like Ulquiorra) or relatively lame (like Fura) ways. It makes everything relatively predictable, and what's the point in watching things when it's fairly clear what's going to end up happening? And like Great Cthulhu pointed out, deaths of characters can actually inspire readers to be more interested and engaged in the story rather than simply being able to dismiss injuries as, "Well, it's a Shinigami, so you know they're going to survive it." With 369 chapters proving a refusal to off "good" characters who weren't already dead before the storyline, plot devices that would normally create suspense (such as injuries) fail to do so because we know that nothing too bad is going to happen to any of the good guys. Twocents 23:07, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I have nothing against the gotei 13 or the captains, its just that there are too bloody many and if there are that many characters, it gets hard to have all of them in the lime light, especially if dying doesn't ever really happen. To me, the only reason a captain or two would die is too show that the antagonist means business or to add more plot development. Like Great Cthulhu said, any story that actually has no real danger aimed towards the protagonist just gets boring and I don't care about the captains anymore. I got tired of them the minute Hitsugaya got all tough towards the Espada Tercera after she released, and who was kicking his end without even releasing. Hoenstly, first the Captains get worried then they get all tough at the last minute. --Moe1216 23:06, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree about there being too many support characters running around. I'll give Tito credit...I care about most of the captains and lieutenants. But at the end of the day Bleach is about Ichigo, Rukia, Chad, Uryuu, and Orihime. The rest are just support characters and don't need the same amount of attention or scene immunity (to actual death and dismemberment) that the main characters get. Tito shouldn't be afraid to winnow a couple to provide angst and motivation for the main characters.

Secondly Tito should seriously consider capping Ichigo's power at some point. Ichigo is titanically powerful and you don't need to keep pumping him up with vague ill-defined powers like his super-Hollow form that he used to kill Ulquiorra. Another method to 'Ichigo rushing head-on into impossible odds only to triumph as he pulls yet another superpower out of his hat to win the day' should be found. Right now Ichigo has to leave his friends behind everytime a powerful enemy sneezes. I'll just say that Superman stopped being interesting a long time ago because he was always more powerful than anyone else. Great Cthulhu 23:43, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

It's getting beyond ridiculous! For a 15 year old who just randomly acquired these powers, it's insane how he's has powers that those who have been training for hundreds of years don't have, and on top of that, he's exceptionally skilled at using these newly acquired powers. It's just getting to be almost hysterical his powers, rather than remotely feasible. He was barely able to take out Grimmjow, he couldn't take out Nnoitra, yet he's able to come back from the dead (essentially - what human could survive having a hole that large in their chest) with some ridiculous new power that he's able to use with exceptional skill to completely annihilate Ulquiorra, and on top of that, he can return to his human form, and use exceptionally high speed regeneration to cure wounds and bring back internal organs, when Ulquiorra stated he was the best at regeneration among the Espada, but even he couldn't do that? It's just not inspiring. It seems almost exhausting, as a reader, to think you're going to see or read something unique and new and plausible within the universe where the story's taking place, and instead, you get something like that. Don't get me wrong - I eagerly await each new chapter and episode. It's just getting tiring to get something ridiculously unplausible that sort of ruins the story a bit. Twocents 23:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Tito missed out on a opportunity when he had Ichigo go into "Super Ridiculous Mode!" A large part of the Hueco Mundo arc was Orihime whining about not being able to do anything. Here was her chance! Orihime has powers that defy the laws of the gods? Than have her reject Ichigo's death and bring him back to fight once more. Yay! Orihime gets props and Ichigo has a real reason to survive having his entire chest blown away! Oh well... Great Cthulhu 00:18, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

If there was one character I wouldn't mind having off'd, it'd be Orihime. Her uselessness annoys me. But that's beside the point. I think Bleach does have a lot of pluses - amazing characters, great battle scenes, wonderful character artwork, etc. but I think one area that really lacks is the unpredictability of the plot. It's always the same - the bad guys are always evil and always lose, regardless of how unbelievable that is, and the good guys are always good and surive everything, regardless of how unbelievable that may be. Twocents 00:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

But see thats not a true statement we have seen alot of backstory on the captains and lieutenants more then we have on Ichigo's friends. If one of them died it would make sense thats why i pushed for orihime she has connection to ichigo and some other characters outside of the humans as well as she is pretty useless in a fight. But we know a little about them and they arent a driving force of the story. If the captains are nothing more then support characters why do we have so much info on them why is so much attention paid to them. Also they are dead i dont think really gets that concept. There already down 3 captains and there would be no one to cut to for soul society scenes, and more how much angst and motivation do you expect ichigo to have for captains/lieutenant as he has really no close connection to them, that makes no sense. The fact is nothing added to the death of he gotei 13 members its just more open spots that arent filled and then what. we have some of people apparently pushing for these deaths but no one making any attempts to rectify how it makes the story any better or fix a huge issue in the integrity of a situation that i previously brought up, by taking out captains you take out the possibility of soul societies survival. Im just going by whats established in the storyline. But yea Momo could have died as she is useless to the story at this point and could have pushed Hitsugaya. But in most peoples positions its more of what they want to see because of what other manga/anime have previously done. Like i said someone dying every minute doesn't always push a story. I would prefer something thats gonna push the story over appeasing what readers want cause you cant please everyone and then your not making what you want but what others want. We all know thats not how these things work. See Moe1216 just made my point this is about the same tired complaint against the protagonists that some people have been pushing it has nothing to do with pushing the story. As stated before instead of constantly pushing for some death that wont achieve anything why dont people just enjoy bleach. What im more concerned about is that we are still on the espada and aizen. I agree that ichigo's powers should be capped its crazy cause seeing that there are other vizards we only see his side of things. Also if you have been to the comic book store like i have superman is still as popular as ever, the difference is they write it so he doesn't use his powers for everything, they make it difficult or not so simple to just storming in, they have made him more versatile as of late. If the real issue is predictability of the storyline thats gonna be problem cause soul society has to exist and they need a full compliment of captains to really do that effectively so. This is gonna be a problem with those harping on this cause its intertwined into the foundation of the storyline. Also taking out a captain is a serious thing, if someone was capable of doing so then whats that mean for the storyline.Salubri 00:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

How about this, kill off Omaeda, Momo, Mayuri and Orihime. There you got a weak girl connected to ichigo, Chad, Rukia and ishida and then there is two lieutenants (one with connections to hitsugaya and other lts.) and one really annoying captain who seems less of an ally and team player then all the others.Salubri 00:41, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't disagree about Orihime. Her indecisiveness and annoying habits (I really wish Grimmjow would smack her when she keeps repeating "Kurosaki-kun" for the millionth time) make her one of my least favorite characters. Her dying wouldn't be a hardship for me.

But overall you are right. Bleach has excellent qualities that will keep me watching even if I complain about the predictability of the plot. But that won't stay true forever as long as Tito insists on playing it safe with his characters rather than being daring. Great Cthulhu 00:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry people actually expect villains to not die? When has Bleach ever given the impression that the good guys would be anything but very badly hurt? Not once! So complaining about bad guys getting slaughtered is like complaining about the egg in egg salad. Why did you order an egg salad when you don't like egg? Moreover, Kubo has already built in his "dragonballs", Orihime can resurrect the dead by rejecting the event of death. But I personally would have good guys not die at all then have them resurrected later. I also think people are too harsh on Orihime. I get she might not be what western audiences expect but Bleach is Japanese and the Japanese probably have a very different reading of Orihime. Plus it really irks me that no one ever tries putting themselves in Orihime's shows. She lacks the will to fight, we know that. Her strength is defence and healing and she is compassionate towards all. She resurrected Loly and healed Melony because of her compassion. Because of her compassion Ulq changed. Yes she relies on Ichigo a lot and yes when there is no other way but fighting she does scream for "Kurosaki-kun" but that too is a good thing. Ichigo needs to protect, he needs to save people. In order to do so, he will come back from the brink of death. All his other friends are "weakened" due to Ichigo's protectiveness. Rukia especially must feel her pride as a warrior damaged because of Ichigo's protectiveness. They are warriors and Ichigo has a way of wounding their warrior pride with his protective attitude. We saw that a few times with Rukia tell Ichigo off for not having faith in her ability. So I think Kubo Tite for one would be rather stunned and confused by the Orihime hate that happens in certain fan sites because I am sure from his perspective he thinks Orihime is plenty strong. Tinni 01:06, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Salubri,

1. I don't object to Orihime being killed or removed in some fashion. Or Tito could reverse course on her character and give her something important to do besides be a damsel in distress.

2. All of the captains and lieutenants ARE support characters. Some are more important then others but it doesn't change the fact that they have nowhere near the facetime of Ichigo. Their activities almost always center around what Ichigo is doing, where Ichigo lives. Thats the definition of a support character's job...to flesh out the world for the main character's adventures.

3. Frankly I don't know why you should be worried about empty spots in the Gotei 13. The final battle for Karatura Town has started. This is the last great battle where everyone has bet everything on victory. There is no holding back. It should be EXPECTED that there are going to be losses...up to and including Captains. This is the perfect time for high drama of this sort...and if you think that now isn't the right time than when? Seriously...I'm not interested in maintaining the status quo simply for the sake of maintaining the status quo. I want a howling good war story! They can worry about patching up the holes in the ranks after its all done.

4. Like I said earlier nobody is pushing for a hit list where characters drop like flies for the sheer joy of seeing them slaughtered. Your dead wrong with that assertion and missed the point where SOME well-planned deaths can serve a story better than just keeping a bunch of characters alive because fans are demanding it.

5. The fact that Tito has done almost nothing with filling in the vacancies annoys me. There are people out there with Bankais and the Gotei 13 just sits there playing with itself. Ugh. Some of the divisions remain leaderless months after Aizen's desertion!

Anyway I'm gonna repeat something about the battle for Karatura Town and Hueco Mundo. This is Ragnarok. This is Armegeddon. This is the Last Battle. Pussyfooting around character deaths at this point borders on stupid. If no one gets even a tiny little toe pinched than what the hell? They wasted my time with this? Why even bother telling a war story if you don't have a war? Sorry...but the deaths of Captains and lieutenants are almost demanded by the storyline Tito has written for us. Your right about one thing...a captain's death IS a serious thing and I expect it to be treated with the mythic importance it deserves. Great Cthulhu 01:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

@Great Cthulhu: if you waiting for the Captain's to die, you'll wait a long time because the very fact that the Gotei 13 can't fill the vacancies left by the three traitor captain's is a testament that Captain's are not easy to replace. Only people out there with bankais who are not captain are Renji and Ikkaku. Renji only just got Bankai and so is not proficient enough to be a captain. Ikkaku is not interested. There is not a lick of evidence anyone else has bankai. Hisagi is "acting captain" of squad nine so there might be small chance he has some form of a bankai. But that's doubtful and even if he has one, it's probably not at par with weakest of the captains. In short, Gotei 13 captain dies now, Bleach ends with Gotei 13 in shambles. That alone is reason why KT won't kill captains. Ex-captains, vizards? Maybe. But Gotei 13 captains... with the exception of Yamamoto, whose death might be necessary for plot progression, no one is going to die. It's war but it's Bleach war and in Bleach war as long as your friends stand behind you, you won't die because they will come and save you. Which is what has been happening. Only time we saw someone die was Shiba Kaien, and he died because he told his friends not to help him. Thou the filler episodes featuring the Karakunizer said it in a corny way, but Bleach is about the power of friendship. As long as you have your friends, you'll survive. I am sorry if that's not worth your time but that is Bleach. Tinni 01:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

PS. Just wanted to add that it's only been one and a half month at most since the three captain's defected. It's takes longer then that to replace a shop assistance. So the three of their position still remaining vacant is not a sign that SS is disorganised or anything. Human Resource management is a tough gig for any organisation. Tinni 01:52, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Tinni,

You make a very good point! Bleach is what it is.

That said...well...having the Captain General die to advance the plotline is exactly what I'm talking about. It would make a good story, its suitably mythic, and it brings home the seriousness of this war. Its not the savage and wasteful use of captains that some here are going on about but the considered and well timed impact of a important character's death.

You just affirmed everything I've been saying.

Speaking of the Vizards...they would make an excellent pool of replacements for the losses the Gotei 13 have suffered don't you think? There is no reason the Vizards couldn't be pardoned after showing their worth at Karatura Town. Of course they would have to want to come back... Great Cthulhu 01:59, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Thats not a realistic point of view calling them support. They have less face time then ichigo yes but everything in the storyline revolves around interactions based on them and where they live. Ichigo had to become one of them to be where he is at currently as a character of the storyline. So to say they are support doesnt hold water, support would be the kids he goes to school with or his family. thats support more then anything. When rukia needed to be saved he had to become a shinigami and go to soul society, when the bount attacked ichigo had to go to soul society and the main bad guy wanted to kill shinigami not ichigo in particular. the whole entire storyline is centered on a shinigami trying to take over soul society by getting to its king and takin his place. So yea they dont have as much face time but its ichigo point of view but the storyline doesnt directly have anything to do with him, other then him being an outside influence, a wildcard, hes fleshing out a storyline that he's being introduced into this stuff was going down well before him. secondly no one said this was it, there is alot unseen so unless you know more then the rest this isnt the end of the series. third you cant come up with a reason for the deaths you say they serve to make the story better that maybe your point of view, its a opinion thats not a fact. What is it any different then killing characters because fans are demanding it. Also again you dont know that its the end, its a big battle but the end seriously doubtful there is to much undone and unsaid and to much to do with other characters. to say its over and unless there is some facts to back it its not a true statement to say so. In turn i dont think yamamoto would go anywhere no one can fill his position and there the only leader not just for the gotei 13 by soul society right now. Other then that im sure the proper respect is being given to bleach. Great Cthulhu you want everyone to die in a ball of flame as if this is the end of all things. Its really disappointing cause it seems like you want it to end more then be progressive because its not meeting your standards. I enjoy bleach and some captains and lts. i could do without and having said that i dont beleive in destroying characters or the story foundations just because some people are of the opinion that that would support something. Its not enough to support bleach its more about supporting what you think about what happens in other anime/manga series would be good for bleach. Id say watch and read bleach like you never had been introduced to any other anime/manga, instead making it every other thing out there. The biggest issue is alot of people dont believe thats what they are doing. but not everything has to be cookie cutter of the same stuff over and over again. If killing off characters is the only thing to make the storyline better then the storyline has more problems then simply being predictable. Great Cthulhu all your talking about is deconstructing the storyline for your own approval. Instead of what pulls it together because my whole contention is theres all this deconstruction of the foundations of the story just so you can personally end it, dont say thats not the case because on more then one account your saying something you cant know, that this is the end so lets destroy everything.Salubri 02:20, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

My theory on the captain commander dying is simply because I sense that Kyoraku is being built as his replacement (the guy survived a point blank cero with little injury and was told not to show his bankai). If Kyoraku does get promoted (Yamamoto doesn't have to die for that to happen, he could just retire after this because he is old). That does leave enough positions for Vizard captains. But that is assuming the Vizards are looking to rejoin the Gotei 13. Urahara and Yoruichi are more likely to come back then the Vizards. Anyway, I am going by my vision of the future for Bleach, which includes the arrival of some representative of the King to Fake Karakura who informs Yamamoto that the king has made his decision and it's Kyoraku. Then said representative goes on to explain that some decades ago Yamamoto tended his resignation to the king and put forward the name of three Gotei 13 captains for consideration for his replacement. the captains were Unohana, Kyoraku and Aizen. The standard practice is that the King has said captains put under observation without their knowledge and it is not unusual for the king to take upto a century to pick someone. It's an important job after all. It was then that Squad Zero found out about Aizen's extra curriculum activities and made contact with Urahara and sent Ichigo's father to find the Vizards. Isshin does say "We never found their base of operation" implying the "we" were looking for the vizards. But Urahara never gave the Vizards up as he wasn't sure what exactly squad zero would do to them. But Urahara is actually now an official member of squad zero and has been working with them to out manoeuvre Aizen! Wouldn't that be a cool twist! But of course, I just want that to happen because I want Ichimaru to be a traitor and secretly working for Squad zero because I don't want him to die. But *sigh* Kubo probably has grand ideas of his own that involve killing Ichimaru. I just hope his death is a grand event and we get lots of back story on him! Anyway, that's enough fangirling and coming up with crazy theories. Tinni 02:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

@Salubri I wanted to add that I totally agree with you. Bleach the manga is very different simply because the main hero is not the be all and end all. This is what get's me most about the anime fillers because the studio writers turn Ichigo into the standard hero who is everything! This is not the way Bleach is at all. Ichigo is not leader. Urahara Kisuke is. Ichigo doesn't order Urahara around, when Yamamoto says to Ichigo he won't allow something, Ichigo's first reaction is to fall to his knees in despair (second reaction is going around his order by going to Urahara). Clearly KT thinks of the Gotei 13 has join leads with Ichigo because he has no problems ignoring Ichigo for weeks on end and just concentrating on the Gotei 13. Then I am a shinigami fangirl and especially lately, because of Ichigo's angstiness, I find that I much enjoy watching the Gotei 13 then Ichigo. Tinni 02:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Yea i get that whole point of view about the series. Though we must keep in mind kyoraku is neither serious nor that much in the way of a leader for the whole gotei 13. In fact him and Ukitake are more powerful together as the general stated then separate, referring back to the friendship thing. The main thing is even in theory its like Yamamoto doesn't have an equal in his role and yet i dont think a captain can be moved up to another captains division. Doesn't seem to likely. Better question for the page is when is Aizen gonna die, people harp on someone dying kill tosen, aizen and gin. there former captains but captains none the less protagonists no theyre not but take what you can get right their deaths will move the story. To a new plot and characters. There you go.Salubri 02:44, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Salubri,

1. WallOfText: Please don't do this. It makes it difficult to parse your thoughts out of a pile of text. Use paragraphs or bullets please.

2. Leading roles vs supporting roles: I'm using the definitions used by film and stage. You have to argue with them about it.

3. Fact vs. Opinion: I'm not presenting any of my opinions as indisputable fact. Its mostly my opinion and speculation...exactly the same as yours.

4. "Great Cthulhu you want everyone to die in a ball of flame as if this is the end of all things. Its really disappointing cause it seems like you want it to end more then be progressive because its not meeting your standards." --Salubri

This is a complete fabrication on your part. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the opinion I laid out for you. Please re-read them because I'm not interested in trying to explain them again.

5. I understand your content with the way Bleach is going and I don't hold that against you. Mostly I entered this conversation because its fun to discuss these things...everybody sees things differently. But having what I said so badly mis-represented is just obnoxious so I'll leave you to it.

Great Cthulhu 03:41, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Man, I Think At Least One Hero Character With Some Importance Should Die. Most Of The Good Guys Have Been Beaten Up Pretty Bad And Haven't Died. So It's Easy To Stop Caring For Them. If Naruto Can Kill Some Major Characters(At Least Temporarily, I Mean Who Thought They Were Going To Be Resurrected, Really?), Then Bleach Should Be Able To Do It As Well. So Far Only Espada And Other Arrancar Have Been Dying.I Also Don't Think The Vizard Should Be Wasted On The Top 3 Espada. Kyoraku And Ukitake Had Their Showdown With Starrk Under Control(They Probably Could Have Handled Wonderweiss And Fura As Well.) I Don't Think 2 Vizards And A Captain Are Needed To Beat the Third Espada, When 1 Vizard And A Captain Could Beat or Incapacitate The Second Espada. If Anything They Should Gang Up On Starrk Or Maybe Even Wonderweiss.Pookl-sama 19:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Alright don't get me wrong I like Bleach more than Naruto, but there are reasons why it's more popular, for one it takes up realistic deep moral issues and the death is quite emotional the only guys killed in bleach are mostly bad guys, the good guys are Ichigo's mother, Kaien Shiba and his wife, if Ukitake died that would be unbelievable and there would be a lot of sorrow in and out of the anime but by Kyoraku's latest reaction I doubt he's injured that bad and people would be really pissed at Kubo for that and right now they are like that because of the espada deaths and if I missed any good guys out that's probably because they are minor and don't matter that much or someone significant that is somewhat forgettable, oh yeah i sort of read the first two comments here and just posted my own, sorry for that.--SalmanH 20:17, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

"...the good guys are Ichigo's mother, Kaien Shiba and his wife..."

I don't consider these three 'good guy deaths' in the sense people mean here. Their deaths happened in the recollections of those in the present. They were just memories and background being laid out for the viewers/readers so we could understand the living characters better.

Outside of this minor nitpick I do agree with everything you just said. Great Cthulhu 20:38, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh well, Naruto has killed a few important and charismatic characters such as Asuma and Jiraya who was both a mentor and friend to the main character. Bleach does seem too far fetched at times and surely, Ichigo's bout was one of the worst. But what the hell, I'm curious to what's gonna happen next, even tho I know Renji & buds will find a way to kill the almighty cero espada and the vizards will bash the remaining espadas. The big question is what's gonna happen to Gin and Aizen. At least Tousen is doing something instead of just watching the show.. Deimonos 20:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Again sorry about that Bleach Naruto gibberish, but yeah you're right Deimonos I'm not sure how they'd beat Yammy now and in his released form he would probably have lost alot of his speed in compensation for his strength and much more powerful techniques, and Aizen I think his fight has been anticipated for a long time, Tosen we'll see soon enough.--SalmanH 21:21, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Once again, what would be the point in killing anyone in Bleach other then to splash some Shinigami blood around? Ichigo doesn't need any more motivation to fight, which I have been told was one of the reasons they killed folks in Naruto because the main character needed more "hate" to motivate him. Let me also, return to my earlier point about Bleach being all about the concept of nakame. As long as you have your nakame backing you up, you won't die. Or rather, it's very difficult for your enemies to kills you because when they have worn you down, your friends come to your rescue and then they have to wear your friends down and then kill you. It's a beautiful ponient lesson Kubo Tite is trying to teach through his manga and all you guys can think about is "we don't care because the good guys don't die!!" What the hell people! Let me draw a real life comparison to drive my point home, in the war in Iraq: the insurgents tend to die more often because they often operate solo and have inferior weapons and stuff. The Americans tend to die less often because they work in teams, have better tech and coordination etc, etc. So should we then stop caring about the troops just because they are not dying enough? Tinni 04:48, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

The concept of Evil or Good is not designed the same in Bleach to compare to American comics like X-men. The fact is, in my opinion, that Bleach shows characters, controlled by their emotions and feelings, trying to change their fate, besides they need to fulfill their duty and not going against their nature. They are torn apart by these aspects.
 * Which part of yourself is stronger: your intellect or your instinct. The best example would be Ichigo and his inner world with in one side Zangetsu=good-intellect-dark and the other side White Ichigo=Evil-instinct-white.
 * Controlled by your instinct could kill you (Noitra, Kaien) but controlled by your intellect makes you distant or arrogant (Genryusai, Byakuya, Aizen, Tousen).
 * The main point in Bleach is not the war between Evil/Hollow (uncontrolled instinct/savage) and Good/Shinigami (controlled instinct/civilized), but maybe resides more on each character's inner struggles (Hollows, Shinigamis or Zampakuto's spirits). Remember Amagai, Bounts, Zomari Leroux, Tousen or Hitsugaya's friend, and so on...Baronofash 05:35, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Well I wouldn't say that Genryuusai is arrogant per say but rather confident and insightful, he's been around long enough to know that you need to be completely focused in battle and assess a person's abilities before immediately saying "you're gonna lose" the only reason he says that sometimes because he knows the capabilities of his opponent well, other wise Baronfash you brought up a good point on that whole instinct thing and that, really there were reasons at every turn for why the antagonists died, Cifer because hollow ichigo said he'd show up again, Zommari blinded by rage and arrogance, Barragan due to his own arrogance, the 9th espada because he didn't know about Rukia's third dance that caught him by surprise, Nnoitra he was just weaker than Kenpachi, Grimmjow most likely not dead but he was almost on par with Ichigo but lost by a fraction, Szayel Apporro because Mayuri used his own tactics against him by compiling all the data on him Mayuri made all of the 8th espadas attacks useless, and you already know about that poison in Nemu.--SalmanH 06:07, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I prefer to say that Yama-ji Genryusai is not arrogant but a distant character as well as Aizen, the 2 seem to be in a different level or class to oppose to Byakuya/Tousen for their arrogant point of views. I like all those Characters for their different personalities, besides Orihime, Rangiku or Kon & co, because of their too burikko or mero mero styles.Baronofash 06:43, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Burikko? Mero mero? I don't know what these terms mean. Could you explain please? Thanks. Good arguement btw. TomServo101 07:55, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Burikko are these stupid and superficial girls who, for example, have the habit to say "Kawaii" or else to anything they could see. They are adults but they act or speak like little girls. By contrast they are really appreciated by lot of people because of what the social specialists call LOLICON for Lolita Complex explaining old guys with attraction for young girls/lolitas. The perfect example could be Orihime with her stupid reactions and her "Kurosaki-kun" or, to make it simple, Rangiku when she wants to go shopping reacts like a BURIKKO and speaks MERO MERO with Hitsugaya.Baronofash 09:11, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I must disagree with you there. Neither Orihime nor Rangiku fall under that catergory. I would like to see how you react in the situation Orihime found herself in Heuco Mundo. Rangiku is fun loving. Fun loving does not equal childish. Which is what you are saying. Mashiro Kuna could be considered those but even she isn't superficial. It's a sad, sad, sad world where cheerful women get labelled air-heads just because they are cheerful. To think you labelled two of the most empathetic and intelligent women "stupid and superficial" really makes me wonder if we are watching the same anime/reading the same manga. Tinni 12:18, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Alright, anyway aside from that let's get back to the whole, "why is it that only antagonists die" how about we leave personal feelings at the door for a short while, we could just say that Kubo has his own reasons for not wanting to kill off a protagonist because he either likes them too much to just kill them off or maybe it's because he has something special in store for them in-order to keep the story going.--SalmanH 12:45, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Let me phrase the question differently. "Why SHOULD any protagonists die?" So far all the reasons I have heard/read boil down to 1. Keeps the battles tense; 2. It makes the war realistic. I would argue that the fact that protagonists do not always win but get heavily injured and must rely on their comrades to come rescue them achieves both of those things just as well. However, killing a character means Kubo Tite can never use that character again, unless he uses some hack to bring them back. The story he can tell with them is finished. Clearly he feels he has more stories to tell with the individual members of the Gotei 13 and Ichigo and Co. Besides which, as I said before, killing the good guys mean defeating EVERYBODY, not just the individual fighter in front of you. I know I keep going on about this but that is the real reason no protagonist has died yet. Madarame get's defeated by Pow, Captain Komamura comes to his rescue. Matsumoto, Hinamori, Hisagi, Iba get battered about by Allon, Captain-commander Yamamoto steps in to save the day. It's kind of hard to kill even a Vice-captain when the Captain-commander is willing to step-in to save them. In short, the protagonists will only start dying when every single one of them are exhausted to the point they can no longer hold a sword. Because as long as even one of the them can still fight, they'll fight to defend their friends. That includes Soifon who might stab from the back, as opposed to blocking blows from the front, but she will still stab. Tinni 13:27, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe Tite save them for the next battle against the Vasto Lorde, the battle against the Espadas could be a way chosen by Aizen to test the strength of SS captains.Baronofash 13:44, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like something Aizen would do,and it would be a nice twist.--Moe1216 18:37, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Or maybe the whole battle of Karatura Town/Hueco Mundo is a massive distraction while his Vasto Lorde go do something else? Great Cthulhu 20:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

@Tinni
 * I would like to see how you react in the situation Orihime found herself in Heuco Mundo, we are talking about a manga characters not about real life.
 * Rangiku is fun loving. Fun loving does not equal childish. Which is what you are saying. To be fun-loving doesn't meant to whine everytime she talks about her captain or her Haineko. The only moments she's natural are when she talks about Gin.
 * Mashiro Kuna could be considered those but even she isn't superficial. My beg, I 'd say I forgot that one.
 * It's a sad, sad, sad world where cheerful women get labelled air-heads just because they are cheerful. To think you labelled two of the most empathetic and intelligent women "stupid and superficial"... . Well, I could consider Yachiru as cheerful, because she was created like a little girl, but seeing adults with impossible breasts (I wonder what kind of audience these parts of bleach try to reach, though) almost all time whining or crying, that is surely Empathetic and Intelligent. For sure, Rangiku, who has her tension rising each time she sees a new clothe, shows a real empathy and cannot be considered superficial.
 * ...really makes me wonder if we are watching the same anime/reading the same manga. We are watching the same thing but in a different way, indeed. I watch Bleach when it is serious not for its stupid parts (ie. karakura-raizer or the beach arc, created only to show big breasts in my opinion). Bleach would be an excellent manga if those parts weren't there, but I would admit that there are people who are fond of those parts.Baronofash 00:00, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is what I mean. You are looking at the parts that support your view and ignoring that rest. I am not going to deny that Rangiku does love shopping and she does play around with Hitsugaya. That's part of her fun loving side. You can see her empathy when Kira comes to her after Gin's betrayal and she cheers him up (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/180/16/). You can see her empathy when she notices Hitsugaya slipping out to see Hinamori. She is acting super drunk but she really isn't and you can see that from her facial expression (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/180/17/). Never is her empathy shown more when she listens to Inoue and cheers up her while she's upset over being jealous of Ichigo (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/199/07/). Her intelligence is evident in that she is a capable vice-captain, a strong fighter and her reactions are appropriate to the situation. In the field of battle she is serious (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/210/19-20/), when she's around her captain during leisure time (a captain who is TOO serious) she is playful, when she is alone - she is reflective (http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/180/14/, http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/224/10/). You took one aspect of a multifacaded character and labelled her a "superficial and stupid" girl. That's just wrong and that was my objection. Bleach is an excellent manga preciously because it has such layers characters as Matsumoto and Inoue. To not have them would have made the universe of Bleach a less rich one. Tinni 01:35, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, well...I think I can return you the compliment, do I?
 * I don't try to convince anyone... Watching something that interest us doesn't mean that we like 100% of it. Anyway, what ever you could say won't change our opinions about those characters... Hope to watch bleach a little more focused on the psychology of each character, instead of the childish & superficial parts like Kon & co or a whining Inoue. There's a lot to do in depth with her psychology, but until now she's famous because of her big tits, her tears and her "Kurosaki kun". Bleach is a scene where different Soul realms struggle not a "purikua manga". My point of view is that the back-and-forth between episodes of different qualities doen't deserve the serie.Baronofash 04:24, 23 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You are mistaken. I was never trying to convince you that the characters have more depth then you think. You simply phrased your opinion in terms so offensive to fans of Matsumoto and Inoue that I had to say something. I have said my piece, you have said yours, let's leave it or move it to another thread. Only thing more I have to say on this topic is that Inoue should be famous for saying "kurosaki-kun" but she shouldn't be ridiculed for it. People should really go back and reread the lust chapters and PAY ATTENTION TO THE PICTURES and not just the speech bubbles. This is a manga after all. That poor girl showed more presence of mind and did more then any other character could have done in that situation and people make fun of her for despairing when all she and Ishida could do proved futile? That's not an indication that Kubo Tite did something wrong, it just an indication people didn't read the chapter properly. Tinni 05:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Here is a question to all my Bleach brothers and sisters: What do you look for in a villain?--Moe1216 21:49, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Good question. On the past the villain was supposed from the Evil side with evil and destruction but no empathetic feelings (demons vs angels). In modern times, the villain is constructed more human, meaning more perceptive, sensitive and sensible. As seen with Zommari asking Byakuya why shinigami has to kill hollows, he showed some concerns about their eternal fight. To make it simple, villain=destruction and good=peace. But the concepts are imbricated, complex and deprecated. I want to see not a fight between villain and good guys, but a fight between different groups. As shown in the Bounty arc, bounts were defined as the bad guys and it turned out to show Soul Society like the Inquisition. Remembering Ulquiorra asking why humans have such strong will when they help their friends, this turned to be sensitive from the "evil side". Another example would be Stark who shows more concern about his "friends". My point is there's no villains, just protagonists fighting for their side. Good or Bad, not matter, it depends on wish side of the wall you are.

-- I'm flexible in what I want out of villains. Obviously the first criteria is that they be entertaining. Bleach is light entertainment so thats a top requirement. The villains in Bleach are over-the-top, flashy, and colorful personalities to keep a viewer's attention. On other kinds of shows the flasy personalities are toned down and more realistic but they still need to be entertaining as appropriate to the genre.

The second criteria is that the villains fill their roles well. The smart master manipulator, for example, needs to be believable even if on reflection what they did was incredibly dumb and unrealistic. Luckily for Bleach willing suspension of disbelief is an absolute requirement so you can get some pretty fantastic twists and turns without rolling your eyes.

The third criteria is that I care about them. This can mean anything from a bit of sympathy to a villain's personal plight or conflict to eagerly hoping that the villain get whats coming to him for being such a bastard. Starrk fills the first role while Aizen fills the second.

To sum it up what I'm looking for is that a villain be entertaining, believable, and make me care about his existence in the storyline. Great Cthulhu 07:55, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

A belief in your own superiority is an important characteristic for villians, be they anti-hero rivals or actual enemies, I believe. Not so much as a way of demeaning their oponent, more of a 'Are you sure you want to fight me?' kind of way. That said, they have to have a proper personality; characteristics that would endear him to the reader/viewer, and also to his own subordinates (otherwise they have no reason to stay loyal) and maybe even their own nemeses. But he also must be willing to prove his superiority in regular battle, which I believe is a failure of Aizen's; yes he has proved he can do it, but he won't. How it fits into his plan I wouldn't like to guess, but that part of him does put me off. I prefer a bad guy who sees a losing battle and say 'Right, stand back, leave this to me.', a guy you'd want on your side in a war, a guy to rally around.

Then there's the manipulative vs honourable argument. I prefer more honourable bad guys, who fight their own battles. It may not be as efficient or effective, as Aizen has proved time and again, but at least you feel some sympathy and empathy for the character, hell, you may being to even genuinely like them.

However, this is starting to sound too much like a good guy, so to counter, a touch of arrogance, but not too much ('An old prophecy spoke of a chosen one. I believe that to be me, and I will prove it.'), someone who will go slightly nuts on opponents if they prove to be too much of a threat (so is not afraid to kill), and of course be driven to achieve their goals. I also like to see how they react to setbacks, as it gets boring if they have everything their own way.

As a personal touch, a dry sense of humour and sarcastic wit also gets my vote. TomServo101 13:26, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

Villain = Realistic Hero = Optimistic Personally, the Hero concept gets in my nerves, I prefer the anti-hero more realistic. But if I have to choose a villain, it would resemble a Sabretooth, Thanos or Grimmjaw (No mercy). Mind against mind, not only strength, and when it is necessary follow his instincts and cleverly destruct the antagonist.Ace of Spade 04:49, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I was just looking at this forum for the first time. There seems to be a lot of opinions here. To me, what makes a good villain is one which you can see their reasoning. You can understand why it is that they do the things that they do. Like the bounts for example. they wanted revenge on soul society because they were rejected. They should also have a personality, and weaknesses, or something about themselves that they don't like. Not saying that they're weak and insecure, but they should be realistic, and realistically, everyone has a fault that weakens them in some way. But of course, that holds true to the protagonists as well. But I think that's the point. A story is mainly about the conflict between the protagonists and antagonists. The point of antagonists is to directly oppose the main character. So, the antagonist isn't always the bad guy, and bad guys could very well be very similar to good guys.

Now, that doesn't exactly hold true for bleach. Aizen is, at the moment, seeming evil in every aspect. But I think the espada to actually be quite good villains, because they have...emotions, in a way, like how Halibel cares about what happens to her fraccion. also, I just wanted to point out that not very long ago, in the soul society arc, it was the captains and the rest of the gotei 13 who were the antagonists. Now they support Ichigo, in their way.

Another note on people asking why the protagonists don't die. I agree with the people that say that they are probably needed for later on. I do agree that some of the arrancar and hollows die to easily, but that was usually do to ignorance and arrogance. Also, while I agree that it would be a prominent thing for a captain to die, I don't agree that it is right away a necessity. Also, bleach is an Asian thing, and is Asian cultures, there opinions are different and it isn't always necessary, I feel, for someone to die to be considered defeated. Many times, especially to warriors, loosing and dishonor is worse than death. Why do you think they had rituals like sepuku? I'm not trying to say that anyone's opinion is bad, I'm just stating what I feel may be Tite Kubo's thoughts.

One last thing. One thing that ticks me off quite a lot is how Ichigo is so powerful. He was barely introduced to this world for very long and already he surpasses the powers of those who spent years training. I don't blame him, because he needs to be strong, but I would like to see other characters not lack so far behind him.

Sorry for posting so many points, but I just wanted to express my views on everything I've read here. KnowledgeandImagination 05:50, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

A good guy is finally cut in half for a change!!

True. Should an antagonist be arrogant? Most stories I have read have well-rounded villaians, but they all have one defining characteristic: they are all over-confident and borderline arrogant. Is this something a good main villain is supposed to have?--Moe1216 07:05, October 11, 2009 (UTC)