Talk:Gin Ichimaru/Archive 2

Gin's Second Defection
Wouldn't it be best to update on Gin's status (example: "former arrancar army commander"?) ? He's not really best chums with Aizen any more. Guy's a psychopath, after all.Peaguy (talk) 02:00, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Gin's status will be updated in due time. The admins will put it up when we have proper translations of items in question. Until then please do not use this page as a forum for discussion, use the blogs or the forums. Only discuss the article here --God (Pray)  02:08, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Poison
Why hasn't his Zanpakuto been updated with it's poison abilities?--暗闇の門番 - "Gatekeeper of Darkness" (言うことを何かを得た - "You got something to say?") 04:39, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Because we are waiting on a correct translation of what Gin said. When we have the translation, the admins will put it in the article and re-open it--God (Pray)  04:50, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

..correct translation? What do you mean correct translation?--暗闇の門番 - "Gatekeeper of Darkness" (言うことを何かを得た - "You got something to say?") 04:57, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

We need exactly what Gin said. The scanlators, especially mangastream's spice up dialogue and change lines. We are working on getting a translation off of the original japaneese so we have accurate info--God (Pray)  05:01, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Do we usually classify Zanpakutou based on their Bankai's abilities? Not that it wouldn't be unusual, but Soifon's Bankai obviously doesn't use poison of any kind, while its Shikai does in the anime. Neither does Shinso. Mohrpheus (talk) 05:32, July 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Naruto wiki uses Manga stream as their primary source and updated almost immediately. Their pages are all accurate, so....I don't see the hold up, but whatever. I commend you all for waiting for the accurate translations and all, but I must point out that this is the first time it's taken this long. Usually you can find updates to the pages as soon as the chapter gets released. ~ The Silver Flash of Konoha (My User Page 05:45, July 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * We don't care what other wiki's do of their information. Mangastream uses Binktopia translators, who are known for, as Godisme said, spicing up dialogues and adding up stuff. So yes, we prefer to wait for the Cnet and Ju-Ni translations which are more accurate and reliable. As for the type, I think we have Shinso as un-classified so I really don't know at the moment, but I'm with Morpheus, we've never classified a Zanpakuto for its Bankai. And this case might be better to wait for the reliable translations to make sure we are getting the correct meaning of Gin's ability, instead of adding wrong information on the page. Lia Schiffer   (Talk)  05:51, July 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed, Salurbi has Adam Restling working on the translations--God (Pray)  05:56, July 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * According to what Gin said, everything about his bankai is invalid,since he lied. That should be noted.Xfactor555 (talk) 08:02, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Can i just respond to what the silver flash of konoha stated- a little while back when i was trying to get into naruto i went on the naruto wikia and i found it to be substandard at best... the Bleach wikia is leaps and bounds better than it and the fact that they dont rely on quick translations for references onloy prooves this fact. GinIchimaru (talk) 10:44, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

I know we're waiting for the C-Net/Ju-ni translations to come in; could one of the admins just add a tag above his Bankai section to that effect? I'm just thinking it'll cut off any unneccesary extra traffic from users about changing the information. TomServo101 (Talk)  14:01, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

I just read the Mangastream and the Blinktopia versions. I didn't see a difference in Manga.I was wondering where the information on his bankai was. Well, to make sense to myself, I'm supposing that his bankai earns him poison abilities(trying to not confuse myself over the how does his shikai differ that much from his bankai) But i think the right scanlations are right..... unless i missed something. CaptainOtoribashi (talk) 17:48, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Thats because mangastream uses Binktopia scans--God (Pray)  17:51, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Gin should highten his role
Gin did betray Aizen, and claims that he is the only person with a chance to defeat him, should we add up at the introduction of his artical as a "Central or Main Antaganist", similar to Aizen? (Animangalover (talk) 15:08, July 30, 2010 (UTC))

No, the simple fact is that it is only speculation that Gin will step up and become the main antagonist, we will have to wait to see what happens in the next few chapters

before Gin's article is changed to him being the main villain, which i highly doubt will happen anyway. GinIchimaru (talk) 15:33, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

A bit hasty to label him the main antagonist after revealing his true intentions to Aizen, methinks. It's best to see what transpires in the next few chapters. Peaguy (talk) 18:54, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

Kamishini no Yari
the poison ability has been added but that is not the only change that needed to be made. before explaining what Kamishini no Yari actually dose Gin said " i told you about my Bankai's ability a while back didn't I. sorry but that was a lie. it doesn't extend as long as i said, and it doesn't move that fast either." while the exact wording may be wrong i doubt the translation would be wrong enough to add that fact if it wasn't in the original. i know that the numbers in the article are from when Gin told Ichigo but to say that Gin would lie to Aizen and then tell the truth to Ichigo about the same thing would be speculation. so would saying Gin lied about lying. so to make the article accurate the numbers should probably be replaced with less specific statements since we don't know the exact speed or maximum length and we know they are less than what is on the article at the moment. and the section Hypersonic Blade Extension and Contraction: along with being inaccurate is redundant due to the fact that the same information is provided in the basic description of the Bankai in a somewhat less wordy form.Kamiryu (talk) 02:24, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Ok to make this clear there will be little change to his bankai description and any change made will be undone and may result in the page being locked again once the lock comes down. The translation is not taken in the right context and simply put most people dont get what Gin is saying. He is speaking of a lie of omission. He previously tells Ichigo that its the length, eventually ichigo realizes its not the length its the speed which gin confirms we have seen it both happen he acknowledges both so theres no question about whether thats whats happening. But when he explains this to Aizen he comes out and basically states he lied as in about the real ability or danger if you will of his bankai. Its not about the speed or length the deadliest part of it is the poison. When ichigo realizes its about the speed it didn't stop being about the length its just that the length wasnt the greatest danger of the bankai's ability. We have seen its length and its speed thats been placed in the reference as well as Gins acknowledgement of both. Just because it can do something else doesn't mean its stops doing what it previously did. If in all the instances you cant see that I dont know what to tell you but we will not allow edit warring on this topic to occur. Salubri (Talk)  01:48, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

did you click the link or look at the quote i put which was directly from the chapter? ( " i told you about my Bankai's ability a while back didn't I. sorry but that was a lie. it doesn't extend as long as i said, and it doesn't move that fast either." ). in the most recent chapter gin said that he lied about the length and speed of his bankai meaning that it is not as fast or as long as he said it was.you can't use a statement for a reference if the person that made that statement admitted it was a lie. now if the translation i found is wrong and he didn't lie please tell me. but don't act as if i don't understand what was said you are the one who appears to be misunderstanding what was said ( that or the translation is wrong but if that is the case why have you not provided a link to an accurate one). oh and btw i have not edited the article i was waiting for someone to confirm that the translation was accurate or provide an accurate translation if the mangastream translation was wrong to the point where my statement is invalid. since you have not provided another translation you have not disproved my statement. ( note; im still not going to edit the article since i'm not fond of wasting my time) Kamiryu (talk) 02:24, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

The official stand of the admin on this is what I just said any attempt to do otherwise will be considered vandalism. Also for your information we have seen all multiple translations. That was not why we locked the page we did it to determine how to address the information from that we have determined how it is currently placed. We are not disassembling the article cause what he said in one page taken out of context of what he meant when said he lied. He said he lied about its true ability it still does what it says previously unless anyone can look at these chapters and prove otherwise then its a pointless conversation unless the techniques he did didn't happen, cutting the city up, attacking ichigo and all that. Unless someone can totally explain what he did when releasing his bankai or ichigos reaction or what Gin said previously unless something there shows different what he previously says holds true and he means it the way i previously explained it. The new information is there and nothing previous takes away from it. Learn that its not simply what he said but what he meant. Until there is a counter to all this other then his simple statement, there is no argument. Salubri (Talk)  02:55, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Gin's quote
There's an inconsistency between mangastream and Ju-Ni's translation of Gin's speech to Aizen. In Mangastram, Gin says "You're gonna die with a hole in your chest. Isn't that your long cherished ambition?". According Ju-Ni, what Gin really says is "A hole's gonna open in your chest and you're gonna die, that's what I've always wanted y'know", meaning it was Gin's wish, not Aizen's. The plot right now reflects the opposite, should we change that? Most translations point to the same meaning as Ju-Ni did. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  02:43, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Its been changed. <font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  03:02, August 3, 2010 (UTC)

Why?
Why do u guys not add anything new for Gin and Aizen's pages from the newest chapters? wtf?BlackGhost91 (talk) 08:43, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

Most likely, the admins are waiting for Ju-Ni's translation to be released, since, once again, Mangastream uses Binktopia's translators, who have a habit of spicing up the dialogues or adding up things, and there's a chance that whatever Aizen said about the Hogyoku could've been misinterpretated or misread, so we're probably waiting to have a more reliable translation before we start changing and adding things. That's what I guess. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  08:53, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

oh i guess that makes sense. BlackGhost91 (talk) 16:43, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

Actually anyone can go ahead and write a summary for the latest chapter. Its just that it needs to be referenced. Our policy clearly states that all new information must be referenced or it will be removed. Myself and Arrancar109 undid many edits the other day of people trying to add a summary of the latest chapter to Gin and Aizen's pages because no one would reference it. --<font color="black" face="Verdana">God <font color="black" face="Verdana">(Pray)  17:02, August 7, 2010 (UTC)

A mention...
When Gin uses the "Kill" command of Kamishini no Yari, I'm pretty sure the original raw would have him saying something like, "Korose, Kamishini no Yari (殺せ, 神殺鎗)." --Reikson (talk) 03:10, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

I am not entirely sure what you want us to do about it, especially since "pretty sure" isn't exactly convincing. I am closing this discussion for now. If you are sure about this and figured out what exactly you want us to do about it, leave a message on my talk page and we can see what to do next. Tinni  (Talk)  12:22, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Flashback
About the first few things that are writen in the beggining of the history scetion of the article, that correspond to the chapter 415, I think it isn't very correct because the manga is showing two different flashbacks, or better yet, a flashback inside a flashback. If you look closer, you notice that when he sees Aizen for the first time he is hiding behind bushes and wearing white clothes. However, when he sees Rangiku, he is showing up from behind a tree wearing black. I think it's more correct to say he first met Rangiku and the three men, and only later, when he saw Aizen for the first time did he notice that the men where the same, and figured out Aizen was their boss. So I feel that, even though I understand that this might escape most people (I only figured it out later because I tougth that scene was confusing), it's alot more logical that the events came out that way other than the way they were described in the article. Sorry in advance for any English mistakes.

You are correct and I already made the correction to the chapter page in relation to this. I will correct the history section now. Tinni  (Talk)  15:05, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

This matter has now well and truly been handled as I rewrote the history section to be more coherent and chronological myself. Tinni  (Talk)  12:22, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Death & details
It is said that "he [Gin] dies in Rangiku's arms" (as a variation, on Rangiku's page: "She holds him in her arms as she realizes he is dead she cries."), which makes me wonder what part or which pictures from the new manga chapter (416) details that so accurately (the "dying in [someone's] arms, that is). Also, what's the official interpretation for declaring him officially "deceased"? P.S.: This is not a complain, only asking for clarifications. Papuraverde (talk) 21:40, August 18, 2010 (UTC)Papuraverde 22:39, August 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * what makes anyone so sure he's dead?--暗闇の門番 - "Gatekeeper of Darkness" (言うことを何かを得た - "You got something to say?") 22:41, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

OK we aren't having this discussion every time someones favorite character is attacked or killed.<font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  22:48, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Care?
Sorry To Bother, But I Was Wondering If It Was Worth Noting In Gin's Personality Section That Gin Care For Rangiku In Some Way, Shape, Or Form Based On The New Manga Chapter 416? MyFinalLionheart 23:09, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Well you can also cite the fact that they meet as children and seemed to be friends. Though it would be kind of difficult to really put it into words how they were related in that matter. Ltjuno (talk) 10:59, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

I think we already have a line saying Gin only cares about Rangiku. Plus their history together has been written extensively in his history section. So I think we are good for now. Tinni  (Talk)  12:22, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Image change
In the plot section, would it be better to replace the chapter 415 image with the ch416 picture. I feel it is far better at illustrating the damage he sustained than the 415 one. 14:48, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I say the 416 image because not only does it show the damage more, it is Gin-centric--<font color="black" face="Verdana">God <font color="black" face="Verdana">(Pray)  15:04, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I'm for the 416 one as well, pretty much for the same reasons as <font color="black" face="Verdana">God. <font color="teal" size="2px">Arrancar109 <font color="teal" size="1px">(Talk)  16:00, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

I've made the swap. 21:02, August 19, 2010 (UTC)

What is he?
Now,that Gins died.I'm wondering if what we should have him classified as villain or anti-hero.Hockey Machete (talk) 15:14, August 20, 2010 (UTC)

A double agent seems the best term. But I don't think anyone really knows what his "true" intentions for his actions were, so it is hard to tell. Ltjuno (talk) 10:57, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Unless I missed something, either of those classification are actually on his article. In fact, we don't even call him an antagonist. So at this point, this is really a topic for the forums or the blog. Tinni  (Talk)  12:22, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Status
I think it's too early to call him Deceased. We should change his status to unknown and wait the next chapters to be sure that he is dead. --WillyFilly2080 Chowder Rocks!!! 08:51, August 22, 2010 (UTC)User:WillyFilly2080

I honestly have to agree with you there. We can't be too sure about his status. I mean to cite an example take Rangiku for instance. The minute she "died" her status got placed as "Deceased" only for her to come back a few chapters later. But, at the same time this type of situation has been discussed before with regards to Rangiku as well. And it will probably stay Deceased which is understandable as well. Because with all honesty for all we know he IS dead. So I think we should actually leave it at Deceased and it can be changed if something comes up. Ltjuno (talk) 10:55, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Look guys, as Gin's biggest fan on wiki, I don't want him to be dead either. However, the pattern that was followed in chapter 416 was very similar to what happened with Starrk. Gin had a flashback, he thought about the person he cared about most, then said person started wailing like the world just ended. Then we saw Gin bleeding from the mouth. Is there a 1% chance he's alive? Sure, there is a 1% chance he's alive because until we see his funeral, Kubo retains the right to retcon him to "near death". Hell, there is always a change that he'll be return to life. For all me know, Orihime is about to burst on the scene and make beeline for the injured, all of whom are convenient bunched together and use her shield to heal everybody. But it is not for this wiki to predict the future and the article are current based on the most recent chapter. Based on the most recent chapter, it is 99% certain that Gin is in-fact dead. IF Gin is still alive or shown to be alive in a future chapter, we'll alter his status to make his article current with said chapter. But until that happens, Gin stays listed as dead on the wiki. I am sorry but we are not in the business of guessing Kubo's mind. We are only in the business is listing what he has revealed. Tinni  (Talk)  12:22, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Add to synopsis Chp 417 gin opens eyes again
Pages 12-15, Gin opens his eyes. He sees Ichigo's eyes and comments "those are strong eyes. Good. In that case... I can leave and entrust this to you."


 * And while you´re at it it wouldn´t that bad idea to remove deceased status as was proposed last week and for the future it ain´t much of an idea to guess characters status when we don´t have clear confirmation. For all we know Ukitake may be dead as well, yet putting deceased status until we actually see him dead wouldn´t be good. Kalerab (talk) 20:39, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

We are not having this debate. One hundred other users have said that Gin is alive, we don't know, he fits the Kubo formula for death though, grievously injured, flashback, monologue and even a last chapter. This is how Kubo usually goes about killing a character so we are listing him as deceased, if we see him alive any time soon, we will change it but it shall remain deceased for now--<font color="black" face="Verdana">God <font color="black" face="Verdana">(Pray)  20:44, August 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Although I don´t agree I see your point so I won´t argue about it anymore. However I guess you haven´t read chapter 417 yet because you can actully see him alive there. Kalerab (talk) 20:54, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

I have read it and the admins along with several other members of this site including myself have all agreed to list Gin as deceased until further notice--<font color="black" face="Verdana">God <font color="black" face="Verdana">(Pray)  20:56, August 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Interesting. Would you please post here the discussion page where you debated this with admins? I believe this is not the one as no administrators joined the discussion and unfortunatelly I´m unable to find any other. Thank you. Kalerab (talk) 21:34, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

They are scattered all over, some on forums, some on user talk pages, Salubri is very adamant that he is dead while Yyp and Arrancar109 have agreed. They cannot be found all together. Check the blogs. Tinni, the head of the Policy and Standards Committee posted something about it in Lia Schiffer's latest blog--<font color="black" face="Verdana">God <font color="black" face="Verdana">(Pray)  21:38, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

This is all beginning to confuse me. Within a span of a few chapters, an in-universe fact/statement declaring Rangiku "deceased" was accepted as such until further notice, while now an in-universe fact/happening that infirmed Gin's demise (ch. 417 vs. 416) and is yet to confirm anything is not accepted. An admin said on this talk page, a few days ago:" we are not in the business of guessing Kubo's mind [this so-called "Kubo formula" of dying, I add here]. We are only in the business is listing what he has revealed.". Papuraverde (talk) 21:45, August 26, 2010 (UTC)Papuraverde, 21:45, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Can someone please change Gin's status to at least say "Incapacitated". Chapter 417 clearly showed him still barely being alive and commenting on Ichigo's changes. Steveo920, 17:38, August 26, 2010

NO! If you had taken the time to read above you you would see that this is already being discussed and the outcome of that discussion--<font color="black" face="Verdana">God <font color="black" face="Verdana">(Pray)  21:42, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Actually all that seems to be affirmed in the most recent chapter is that Gin if not stone dead then he is dying and that in all he himself basically states he is "leaving" considering he is in no condition to go anywhere thats his own admission of dying. Also his comments were to himself he can't even talk at this point nor move. Thats the official stand unless there is reason to believe otherwise. It is not ambiguous as Grimmjow and we dont go by what other characters can survive. The basic point is kubo does have a formula for death and there is the issue of lack of future in the story some characters continue to have one and others dont. The Arrancar, Tosen and now Grimmjow. Fan opinion does not and will not dictate status on the sight plain and simple. If there is an issue with it forum and blog it to death all you want. As far as complaining here please don't. --<font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  21:51, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

"Kuba's formula" is a predictability, as common as saying "good guys never die" and such. It's also retroactive thinking. Anyhow, I don't see "dying" within the official statuses, and I don't even know in which category supposing the character lack a future in their stories fits. I'm not (personally) issuing a "fan opinion", but working on the few panels that concerned Gin and in which he was definitely not "deceased". But I'll stop "complaining" (I was actually thinking that issues are raised here). Papuraverde (talk) 22:02, August 26, 2010 (UTC)Papuraverde, 22:01, August 26, 1020

Bifurcating in Anime
Isn't it time to replace the manga picture of Gin bifurcating Hiyori? --Seireitou-shishō(My True Identity 19:22, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

We already have the pic and it will be placed. Thanks anyway.--<font color="4169E1" size="2px">Salubri <font color="4169E1" size="2px">(Talk)  19:49, August 27, 2010 (UTC)