Talk:Visored

Automated transfer of Problem Report #10503
The following message was left by Arrancar79 via PR #10503 on 2008-06-04 18:35:29 UTC

Why I moved this page
The logic is simple. We don't call the Arrancar "Arancaru", nor do we call Soul Society "Souru Sosiyeti", so it just makes sense to use the correct transliteration. And considering Vizard rhymes with "wizard" as opposed to "visor(ed)", I don't see why we should continue using an incorrect word. Got a problem with it? Take it up with Merriam-Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?vizard01.wav=vizard Omarciddo 08:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)omarciddo

The logic is simple too, Vizard is the real word, and the only reason for which we don't use Souru Sosiyeti&cie, it's because they doesn't really fit with the "Style" of the wiki, but I don't see any problem with Vizard, I reverted it, you can still see on a poll if people wants to redirect it or no, but we can't seriously redirect an important article without any saying before.

EDIT : Also, Anime is NOT a safe source, just see for Mayuri, in the manga, we only see half of his face and much of his "implants" got censured in the anime... Mili-Cien

That particular name comes from Viz Media who is actually known to make up names and not ask the original authors what the names should be. Besides as already said before Vizard is the correct term no matter which way you look at it. Vizard is even a real English word which fits the characters. I seriously don't get how some people prefer incorrect terms over proper ones like this and Soul Reaper. Drunk Samurai 03:01, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Vizard and Visored
Which is correct? I've never seen concrete proof of either, though I'm more inclined to believe "vizard" is correct, as opposed to "visored," it's a real word. I don't have a preference, if "Visored" is correct, I'll gladly use it, but I would love some actual set-in-stone information. Has it been written out in English anywhere in the manga? A databook? MementoMoriBlack 01:36, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Basically the actual word is Vizard. When you see visored its not an actual word, its just the english pronunciation of the word Vizard thats all. Salubri 01:41, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I am confused. If the Japanese spelling for Vizard and Visored is identical, then how can one be sure of what the correct one is? Has Kubo ever spelled it out in plain english before?

Its common logic really. Vizard is defined as a mask or disguise. Visored is defined as the act of protecting with or providing a visor (used on a cap or helmet to shade or protect the eyes). So the reason i said its not an actual word before is because in the particular context it is being used visored is just the pronunciation of vizard in english. The only other spelling for visored is vizored. It seems more then likely whoever does the translations got the two mixed up as the similarity between vizard and visored or vizored is close. But they mean two different things. I just look at the actual meaning of either and the obvious one is correct. As for whether or not Kubo has said anything on it, not specifically that i know of, he likes to make things and then leave it, he doesnt draw it unless he has to, apparently he has alot of ideas before he decides what to do, most likely why we know so little about the vizards in general. Salubri 16:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Oops, I had never realized that Vizard was a real word - I suppose that shows how foolish I am. In that case, I agree - Vizard seems to be a far more likely spelling. My guess is that Visored was favored for the English dub because it is a far more common word than Vizard. However, as you said, Vizard's definition seems to fit the description much better, especially since Kubo likes being abstract with his terminology. Mohrpheus 02:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it really should matter whether vizard is a real word or not. Unless Kubo has written "Vizard" in roman characters, the only official source is the Viz manga. Right or wrong, that is what this wiki should reflect. Scanlations may be nice, but even the most well done scanlation zero possibility of input from the official sources. Maybe the Viz translator's don't consult Kubo or his representatives---but there's a chance they could, which is more than you can say of any scanlation. This general attitude that fanon and canon are one in the makes the Bleach wiki look second class for presenting the facts. Daisekihan 05:04, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

You know I honestly don't know why you think Viz translations are a 100% accurate. I actually own all the Viz translations and I am actually quoting here, Renji: "So I as leader of the advance team will go to Heuco Mundo and open the eyes of the traitor Orihime Inoue". They had Renji sprout that non-sense during chapter 238 and in the very next page they had Yamamoto say "Hitsugaya's advance team". What Renji actually said in that scene was "I Abarai Renji Vice-captain of Squad 6 and member of the Hitsugaya Advance team will got to Heuco Mundo and open the eyes of the traitor Inoue Orihime". A line that makes more sense. Viz doesn't do word for word translations. They do an adaptive translation, as in they translate the story and adapt it for their audience and they aren't all that good at it. If I didn't think part of the money I pay for their volumes filtered back to Kubo I wouldn't bother wasting money getting their translations. Going by them is NOT being "official". Officially we have to go by the Japanese and in Japanese it's Vizards and that's they way it's going to stay. Tinni 05:43, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

In Japanese it's ヴァイザード: va-i-zaa-do. The word has never been written in Roman characters by Kubo ever. If you want to say "and in Japanese it's ヴァイザード and that's they way it's going to stay" I'll agree with you. I agree that Viz's translations of prose may not be ideal, but I don't see any reason to prefer the Romanization of a word that was at best a guess by scanlators over the Viz one. Daisekihan 06:06, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the first way thats said makes sense too...bit formal, but makes sense. Abarai Renji of vice captain...is bad grammar! --Licourtrix 05:48, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * The bad grammar was a result of my dyslexia and no the first way doesn't make sense because Renji wasn't the leader of "the" advance squad. But we are veering off topic. Getting back on topic, we do not call Shinigami Soul Reapers, so I don't see why we have to use call Vizard anything but Vizard when Vizard has a meaning and Visored does not. Tinni 06:26, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

'''OK I DONT KNOW HOW MANY TIMES THIS NEEDS TO BE TALKED ABOUT BUT IM SORRY EVERYONE CANT BE PART OF THE ORIGINAL CONVERSATION. HAVING SAID THAT TAKE IT TO THE FORUM AND TALK IT TO DEATH THERE IS NO ROOM FOR ARGUEMENT THREADS THAT RUN ON FOREVER. AS OF NOW THIS IS A CLOSED ARGUMENT ANY CHANGES TO THE ARTICLES WILL BE REVERTED. UNTIL A TIME COMES WHERE KUBO SAYS THAT THIS IS THE ONLY WAY IT IS SPELLED THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO SAY.'''Salubri 06:51, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Speculation on Vizard's Intentions
I edited the last bit of the Synopsis section by adding in the fact that the Vizard may be heading out to fight Soul Society. I did that because it was in parenthesis that they may be going to fight Aizen and I felt that if for some reason we were going to offer one possibility we should probably offer both. If you want to remove the speculation all together I'm also fine with that. Jacksane 19:30, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

The "Unknown Intentions" thing that was mentioned is actually good enough. That's why it's there. Arrancar109 19:48, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

When I edited the page all it said at the end was "The Vizard are then seen heading out (possibly to fight Airzen)" so I edited it. Jacksane 19:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not sure who originally put that up, but from the moment I saw it, I had a feeling they may not necessarily side with the Gotei 13 either. The "unknown intentions" thing was always there, but I think it is a common belief that they'd take up arms against Aizen. But the key word is "belief", so, like we both said, it isn't clear which side they're actually fighting on. Arrancar109 20:02, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Identical pictures
How come the same picture is on the page twice? The one with the Vizards with their masks on and getting ready to fight. It's both up in the Arrancar arc section with the caption "The vizard begin to attack." and then again in the Hollow mask section with the caption "All Vizards with Hollow Masks on." Doesn't that seem a bit unnecessarily repetitive? Perhaps the first one could be eliminated, since the photo isn't affiliated with the Arrancar arc. Twocents 16:54, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Removed it. Arrancar109 16:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Visoreds or Vaizards?
The English dub calls them Visoreds. Should everything be changed to Visoreds on this page then or is there some reason for leaving it at Vaizards? IchigoKitty 03:18, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Just slightly up this section on this page is the explanation for why the page is left at Vizards. Twocents 03:27, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Read above...The English pronunciation is Visoreds. The correct one is VIZARDS.--Espada Speed 03:29, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think many people mention this, but what about the pronunciations? The "I" in "Visored" is pronounced the same way as "Vaizaado." However, "Vizard" is pronounced differently and doesn't sound the same as the Japanese. Check it here. -Mr. Toto 23:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I hardly consider this resolved, Vizard was used by fansubbing groups, when it came time for the manga to roll out Kubo approved Visored.--Licourtrix 09:37, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

In Chapter 188, page 9 the term used is actually Vaizaado. The websters dictionary defines Vizard as a mask for disguise or protection. Pronunciation: \ˈvi-zərd, -ˌzärd\. While the term Visored is spelled in the manga using kanji meaning masked army (仮面の軍勢 kamen no gunzei?), it is pronounced as the English visored (ヴァイザード), an archaic meaning being "masked". Visored is an defined as an extension of the word Visor. which is the front piece of a helmet, while it can be considered a mask, it does not refer to the same thing as a mask as it is only part of a whole structure and is not separate on its own as a mask, as its attached to another piece such as a helmet. In Chapter 215, page 19 the term used is Vaizards which then refers to Vizard, in romanji is spelled Vaizado it is only taken by fans to be spelled visored in translation even thought that is apparently not the case, unless there is something official that states that the word that makes no sense logically nor is consistently translated is in fact the correct version.Salubri 16:07, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

There was this same debate on Wikipedia, I cannot, nor will I repeat it word for word or even provide a link, as the Visored page was moved into a list of Bleach characters and lost its individual talk page.--Licourtrix 11:56, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Exactly what I thought. In case your wondering this site focuses on bleach and what it does, not what outside sites do, as you can see its already been spoken of here with little people taking issue about it and until it can be confirmed or denied its moot point. You yourself can't even find nor bring up the credible information with which to even push your point of view, so i would ask that your debating be taken to the forum as the talk pages are only for conversation on content and maintenance and thats obviously not taking place in this conversation simply cause you don't agree cause other people where talking about it on some other wiki format.Salubri 14:40, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

You seem quite apt to put me down. Perhaps you should avoid commenting on my posts. I don't wonder anything about this wiki, I know that it doesn't use the notable and verifiable refernces that Wikipedia demands. I actually wished to provide a reference to the wikipedia articles talkpage because they had PR from viz and kubo himself saying he preferred Visored, Soul Reapers, etc. I only wish some archive was kept but the entire page and its history was purged when the article was merged.

Bankai?
I've noticed on many of the pages of the Vizard former Lieutenants that the Bankai slot says "Not Yet Achieved". We really don't know if they have or not, so shouldn't we show that doubt?

The accepted practice is 'unless explicitly stated, they don't have it'. Same vein as 'innocent until proven guilty'. I wouldn'nt be suprised if they had, but we haven't seen any proof yet. TomServo101 10:21, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Elemental Zanpakutos
I removed the trivia about elemental zan's because Rose's is not element-based, making the statement incorrecte. --Yyp 21:02, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Immense Spiritual Power?
I was looking through Lisa Yadomaru's Powers and Abilities section, when I noticed that she supposedly had "Immense Spiritual Power". I looked through all lieutenant vizards, and they had the same. Does being a Vizard automatically give you "Immense Spiritual Power", even when that category is generally used for Captain-Level opponents in the sense of having achieved Bankai? Because we dont know if the lieutenant vizards even have Bankai. Yes, it's likely, but they might have not even bothered.--Ulquiorra Wannabe128 22:01, September 25, 2009 (UTC)

Immense spiritual power doesn't mean they have achieved bankai just that the average shinigami or hollow would probably face alot of trouble fighting them.--Licourtrix 01:25, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, but that fact relates not the their sheer spiritual power(as indicated by "immense" or "vast" in articles), but their increase in physical abilities. I just don't think that Dual-Type reiatsu should immediatly be considered "immense", especially if some of them may or may not have Bankai.--Ulquiorra Wannabe128 10:22, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Im not sure you understand the definition of being a vizard. If one has the power of a shinigami the highest rank is captain, there is reportedly nothing above that in terms of power level. What your doing is trying to determine power level by rank on those who aren't apart of a ranking system and by the definition of that are more powerful then a shinigami or hollow would be with one form of reiatsu. Hence why Hachi is able to use kido he himself developed that can't be undone by shinigami kido. If he was a simple shinigami his power could be undone even by a captain with kido mastery. The definitions used have little to do with the ranking system on used in the gotei 13, yes they were former shingiami but even general logic means having one set of power can be trumped by having two its simple math. Having bankai is an increase in power in being a captain-level shinigami. If the vizard are half hollow with the power that comes with it, then why should having shinigami bankai be the definition of their strength alone. To prove your point you would have to prove that the former lieutenant vizard arent as powerful as captains or more so. They without shikai, using shikai or lack of use of their zanpakuto at all they have shown they can fight side by side on the level of a captain and in some cases succeed where captains couldn't meanwhile shinigami lieutenants have been all taken out for the most part.Salubri 13:07, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

I see your point here, but i wasnt refering to their combat abilities. I was refering to the fact that "immense spiritual power" may be a little presumptous. Theres a difference between physical prowess and level of spiritual power(even though they are very inter-connected) there is still a difference. I just dont see how simply being a Vizard gives you "immense Spiritual power" if all donning a mask really does is give the user a new place to absorb their power from. Sure, it enhances their physical abilities, and changes the nature of their spiritual power while the mask is on, but I dont think this would automatically give them "immense spiritual power" like the captain-levels who have this power all the time, as opposed to the Vizards who only gain this power when the don masks.And i perfectly understand the definition of being a vizard. im just saying that lieutenant level vizards(assuming lisa and hiyori are this because of no evidence to the contrary), when they don their masks, gain a big boost in physical abilities. i dont think that being a Vizard changes your spiritual power even without the mask. --Ulquiorra Wannabe128 18:38, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Thats not how the concept was based on if you see the power yes its mentioned in the section but it has nothing to do with so much being a captain or lieutenant the reason alot of pages are listed as so are to show they are of a level but not the highest. While Renji and Ikkaku show mastery in some skills they are not captains in spiritual level by any means and having bankai allows them to rival a captain, but you wouldnt confuse the amazing spiritual power level of say byakuya or zaraki with any lieutenant. Your still thinking on terms of them being shinigami they aren't they are vizards. Two power sets as opposed to one. Your still using the term lieutenant level, they aren't lieutenants any longer havent been for some 100 years. Your trying to classify them with a system that no longer pertains to them. Even further trying to classify them solely on their shingiami power as opposed to their full power. Did we not all see all of them take out thousands of gillians without releasing their zanpakuto and in some cases not using them at all. Thats even much for a captain to accomplish, if the amazement the gotei 13 had to the scene was any indication. its a dual spiritual power, notice they dont wear the masks all the time, hachi performed kido the level unseen before that a shinigami cant do as the spells were unique and only placed on his mask to boost it even further. The boost comes from the mask but its always there, the enhancement of any ability comes from the spiritual power as does all abilities whether hollow or shinigami.Salubri 21:59, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. This is getting a bit ridiculous. Let's just call it a moot point. I really don't care anymore. --Ulquiorra Wannabe128 18:43, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Partners: Kensei and Mashiro
(NOTE: If this has already been talked about, please re-direct me to it.)

I'm probably the only one who thinks this, but shouldn't Kensei and Mashiro still be partners (NOT to be misinterpreted as a fan fiction)? I mean, they're still working together as part of the Vizard, right? Not only does their history show it, but also their current team-up in the Fake Karakura Town Arc. Now, I won't change their partner status bar out of respect to those who disagree unless it's finally been agreed upon that these two should be considered as a lethal pair. So who's with me (No flames please; If you disagree, KINDLY state your reason/s.)?--Ethelion 03:32, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Color me confused, but from a check I just did on their pages, it still lists them as each others' partners. So the question you have is based on...? Twocents 03:30, October 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * My question is based on the Vizard Page.--Ethelion 03:33, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Oh you should have been a bit more specific with exactly what you're questioning. I'm making an assumption here, but I'm guessing that you question the use of the word "formerly." Personally, I think it should match their pages - be consistent. If their pages say they're partners, then the Vizard page should say they're partners. If it's decided that "formerly" is correct and should remain, then their individual pages need to be adjusted. As for which is chosen, I can see logical arguments for either one. Twocents 03:35, October 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * I assumed that my question was specific enough since I did post it in the Vizard Discussion Page and yes, I'm questioning the use of the word "formerly". Anyway, I appreciate your participation in this thread. Anyone else who agrees/disagrees?--Ethelion 03:41, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

I do agree with this just because Kensei and Mashiro are the only captain-lieutenant pair to become vizards together and while Kensei is no longer Mashiro's captain as such, he does still seem to fight with her and protect her. So the formerly should probably be dropped. Tinni 04:18, October 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your support Tinni.:) Anyone else?--Ethelion 04:30, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Im not sure I believe it's only in reference to their original connection in the formalized Gotei 13, They are no longer captain and lieutenant at one point they were but this hasn't been the case for over 100 years thus they aren't really classified in that way thus the former. Now if they hang out together still thats different considering how kensei cant stand her, but friends yes partners in the way i think it is referring i dont know. The vizard have no hierarchy they maybe comfortable fighting along side each other seeing as they have that connection though.Salubri 04:40, October 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * This is where we run into problems with the "partner" field. I think we can agree that a Vice-captain and Captain have a partnership relationship. That's pretty clear cut and unambiguous. If we just stick to that then yes Kensei and Mashiro are no longer "partners" and their profiles need to be changed to reflect this. Because right now they are in a loose alliance with Shinji being the spokes person/de-facto leader. I am in favour of having a clear unambiguous "Only Captain-lieutenant" type relationship will be listed as partners. BUT we don't have that narrow a definition and this makes things a bit inconsistent. We have Kyoraku and Ukitake listed as each others partners because they fight together. But so does Love and Rose. In fact those two approached Starrk together and Love, who objected to Kyoraku interfering, didn't seem to mind when Rose released to fight along side him. So why not list Love and Rose as each other's partner. By that same argument, Kensei and Mashiro stayed together to fight Fura and keep an eye on Wonderweiss. So Kensei might find Mashiro annoying but he clearly prefers to fight besides her. So I say, we drop former from Kensei and Mashiro AND add Love and Rose as each others partner because clearly "partners" are not just about Captain-lieutenant relationship but also about who prefers to fight along with whom. Tinni 05:28, October 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * And to think that you didn't have to read my mind on that.:) That's exactly my point too. Kensei and Mashiro may no longer have a superior-subordinate relationship, but they still function as partners. Again, thanks for the support, Tinni.:)--Ethelion 05:38, October 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * As for Love and Rose, perhaps we could make another thread after this one. Although I also prefer that they be considered as partners (I'll give my reasons later), I can live with any verdict with this other matter.--Ethelion 05:45, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Okay guys, so far the verdict is: Agree - 2, Neutral - 1. Now I'll be looking forward to changing Kensei's and Mashiro's status bars (in the Vizard Page)in a while, still recognized as partners, since I've given time for others the opportunity to place in their thoughts in this. Should anyone object, please state your reasons here in this discussion page. Finally, I would like to thank Twocents and Tinni yet again for participating in my latest thread.:)--Ethelion 11:48, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Espada kills
Here is a bit of dissonance that's going on. If Ichigo is a vizard and he killed Ulquoirra how is Hachi the only vizard/first vizard to kill an espada? Even if we say "hollow" Ichigo got the kill, isn't hollow Ichigo technically a vizard too? Seeing as in the hollow form that killed Ulquoirra Ichigo had a mask AND used a shinigami zanpakuto. Tinni 06:37, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed that too. I removed it. I don't think it's something that'll be missed. I also removed the "Kensei is the only Vizard who prefers his Shinigami powers over his Hollow powers" too, both because I don't see how it's relevant, and, like the "Hachi killed Espada" thing, also false, as Ichigo has not used any Hollow powers along with the mask (not counting him losing control to his Inner Hollow). I mean, yes, he can use the Black Getsuga Tensho without worry, but Getsuga Tensho overall still stems as Zangetsu's special ability. Arrancar109 06:43, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Ichigo and Rukia
I thought it had been mentioned elsewhere but why is Rukia listed as Ichigo's "acting lieutenant"? She spends less time with him than Chad does due to her commitments to Soul Society, and Chad was already his "partner" so to speak before he even gained shinigami powers. I don't actually think Ichigo has a partner as such, but if he did, Chad would be more accurate than Rukia. Can this be changed? BollyW 22:23, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, we did decide to leave that column blank on his (and Rukia's) character page, and all pages that would list them as partners. Some dude, who clearly does not pay attention, changed this, which I changed back. Arrancar109 22:46, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks :) BollyW 22:51, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

Trivia section clean-up
Now part of the reason we are cleaning-up the trivia section in a lot of article is because a fair few of them are full of junk. However, I am truly, truly, truly disgusted at the blatantly obvious statements that were included in the trivia section of this page. Please explain to me, how most of the following statements is not obvious from one glance at the Vizard table? Also, who on earth finds it useful to have a statement like "Kensei is the only Vizard who has released his bankai"? You would hope that eventually all the vizards will have released their bankai. If they don't and Bleach ends, then it becomes worthy of trivia. Right now, not so much. Lastly, yes Mashiro can hold her mask for 15 hours under rest condition and Love said his mask (and possibly Rose's) doesn't last for more then 3 minutes. But I don't recall any other vizard saying "oh, my mask also lasts for 3 minutes". Also the time-limit is pretty useless as was demonstrated when Mashiro's 15 hour mask disintegrated mid combat with Wonderweiss. So that trivia come across as bit speculative and probably something best left in the individual characters profiles. Anyway, like always, if you don't agree with the assessment and believe that one or more of the trivia isn't junk - leave a statement explaining yourself. But please don't re-add without explanation. If you wish to add trivia, try thinking of something that's not obvious from reading the article or something Kubo mentioned in interviews or volume commentary or something like that. Tinni 04:42, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * There are five Captain-level Shinigami who became Vizard: Shinji, Kensei, Love, Rose, and Ichigo.


 * There are four Lieutenant-level Shinigami who became Vizard: Hiyori, Mashiro, Lisa, and Hachi.


 * Kensei and Mashiro are the only Vizard who were members of the same squad in the Gotei 13.


 * Shinji and Kensei are the only Vizard who used to be captains of current Shinigami (i.e. Shinji and Kensei were the Captains of Sōsuke Aizen and Kaname Tōsen respectively).


 * Aside from Ichigo, Kensei is the only Vizard who has released his Bankai.


 * Mashiro is the only Vizard who can retain her Hollow mask longer than three minutes, with a maximum of 15 hours.


 * Lisa is the only Vizard who used to be a lieutenant of a current Captain (i.e. Lisa was the Lieutenant of Shunsui Kyōraku).


 * Hachi is the only Vizard who wasn't a member of an official squad in the Gotei 13 and is the group's only original male member who wasn't a captain, where he served as the Lieutenant of the Kidō Corps.\

Kaname Tōsen
Should Kaname Tōsen be mentioned here because he has hollow powers?--B14 14:56, December 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * First up, thanks for discussing it first, rather than just changing it. Now - this is not to be added yet. This is something that needs to be sorted out here first. Now, as things stand, we know virtually nothing about Tosen's hollowfication. He could be something completely different to the Vizard. We can already see that he has gained a chest plate & shoulder covers, whereas the Vizard have just the mask (which in most cases only covers their face, whereas Kaname's covers his entire head, like Ichigo against Ulquiorra. I say mostly because Kensei's does somewhat wrap around the back of his head, but doesn't cover it). Also, Aizen called the Vizard "Arrancar wannabes", so that suggests that Kaname is something different than them, otherwise it would make little sense for him to say that. Also, Vizard seems to be a term exclusive to the group of ex-Shinigami experimented on by Aizen & saved by Urahara. It is not a species name. They admitted Ichigo to the group, hence him being called one, but Tosen was not admitted to their group. -- Yyp  (Talk)  15:16, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Point being the term Vizard is exclusively used by Shinji's group as a name for what they are and what their group is called. Ichigo acknowledges a place among them as well as they acknowledge him as one of them, even if that connection is informal. We cannot as a site call Tosen such based on the fact that doing so is a fan thing not a factual thing. He has not called himself as such only stating that his abilities are similar. Not to mention Shinji and the others came up with the term and outside of themselves no one calls them that. So the basic term of Hybrid is correct whether you speak of tosen, Ichigo or Shinji and is fine to use to describe him but its not anyone with a mask can be one type of deal.Salubri 21:41, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Reiryoku Absorbption
It's been bothering me for a while now, but could anybody tell me when it is ever said that Vizards absorb spiritual energy? I am having difficulty finding it in the manga, and it should be cited in the article. Mohrpheus 21:09, December 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * Vizards absorb Reiryoku??! Is that really in the article. If it is I think it needs to be removed, as I have never heard that said before. Minato 21:14, December 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I just found that little section at the bottom and I know for a FACT that has never been said in the Anime, the Manga i'm not too sure about. Overall that little part seems very speculative to me. So I will wait Ten Minutes before I remove it, but I won't delete it. Instead I will move it to the Talkpage in case in the future someone can provide some fact behind this. Minato 21:21, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

That's just what I had feared. I don't recall any explanation ever being given during Ichigo's training as a Vizard. That's the only time where I imagine that it would have been mentioned. Mohrpheus 21:36, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but I think that it might have come from Rukia's explanation (immediately after first unveiling her shikai) about how Shinigami absorb reiatsu to heal themselves (how she got her powers back after nearly being executed). Or maybe from Ishida saying something similar when they first arrived in Hueco Mundo. And since that was said about Shinigami, it was extended to the Vizard by whoever added it. That's just my best guess though. -- Yyp  (Talk)  21:45, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

I believe its in reference to how hollows gain spiritual power. Seeing as the vizard are half and half it is best shown in how ichigo and inner hollow ichigo differ in power as their power sources are both different. the issue is that nobody has done maintenance and referencing properly on that page to point out how this is significant to a vizard physiology as shinigami and hollows have different power sources. Put them together and you have something thats more powerful then either two separate. Salubri 21:47, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

OK here is what it says

Hollows either absorb spiritual power (Reiryoku) from their surroundings or ingest it from spiritual beings, while Shinigami produce their own natural spiritual power, where some are wasted or leaked out. By combining these two properties, Vizard can reabsorb the spiritual power that they themselves give off, making their techniques much more efficiently. They can also take it in from other sources, further boosting their power.

The Hollows ingesting Reiryoku and Shinigami ingesting are facts about Shinigami and Hollows. They can be moved to the Overview section. And the last part: "Vizard reabsorb the Reiryoku they themselves give of, etc," is NOT a known fact. I say: "By combining" and so forth be removed and the first part should go into the overview. Minato 21:57, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

It's true, Hollows gain reiryoku by devouring souls, but that's something which the Vizard obviously don't do. Which means that the power they gain as Hollow hybrids is simply another internal source, rather than the absorption of energy around them. It seems to have already been established that pretty much any spiritual being has an advantage in an area saturated with spiritual energy. Mohrpheus 22:02, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

See what you just did there is take one part of it but thats not all of it. No they dont devour souls but they very well absorb spiritual power from their surroundings which is something a shinigami can do with very little skill or ability because their power is internally created. To say the power they gain as hollow hybrids is internal isn't true as a statement because hollow powers are not gained that way either, its souls or external absorption. Granted the reabsorbing thing is speculative the rest is supportive of the hybrid status be they vizard or arrancar. But for what you say to be true mohrpheus you would have to only look at eating souls as a power source and disregard the external absorption. Just because you don't commonly see it doesn't make it is any less true it can be ambient in a way. quincy do it external too we dont see Ishida absorbing spiritual power on the regular either. Salubri 22:25, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

I see. I want to move the first part to the Overview and I already know where I will put it and how it will be worded.

About what Mohrpheus said; after some thought I think he might be correct. If u think about it Hollows can devour a Soul Reaper, and in turn absorb the Reiryoku. Now then(I hate to use Ichigo, but hes the only Hybrid we know alot about), Hollow Ichigo said he fused with Zangetsu and the two of them are Ichigo's Reiryoku. So then; why do Vizards lose power after using their masks. The answer is obvious. The Inner Hollows absorb their Shinigami's Reiryoku and in turn grant them enormous power, strength, and speed. While it is true that this is speculation, saying that the Vizards can absorb external energy is alos as it has never been said or performed by ANY VIZARD. They have never done this or claimed they could. The facts we know about Hollows and Shinigami might not apply to Hybrids in the same sense or same way. "sigh", so it is all speculation no matter how u look at it. Minato 23:42, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we should be more general with the explanation then, like: "... the shinigami's reiryoku takes on the properties of that of a Hollow, becoming far more powerful as a result." As far as I know, that would be both accurate and concise, with no speculation (as it has been stated that Vizards have Hollow-like spiritual energy). All of this talk of energy absorbption and soul devouring has gone beyond the point; neither of them have ever been attributed to Vizards in any way, shape, or form. Mohrpheus 23:49, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

I still have to insist that, "Hollows either absorb spiritual power (Reiryoku) from their surroundings or ingest it from spiritual beings, while Shinigami produce their own natural spiritual power, where some are wasted or leaked out." Be moved to the overview and the second part, "By combining these two properties, Vizard can reabsorb the spiritual power that they themselves give off, making their techniques much more efficiently. They can also take it in from other sources, further boosting their power." Be removed as it as never been stated. I know where to put the first part and how to word it. So can I? Minato  19:27, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

See your trying to find the an answer to something you just can't know thats really not a point here. We dont have to try to understand why we just have to put the information down even if it doesn't make sense to us. Who knows why the Vizard have a limit on the amount of time they use their mask it can be for some yet know reason entirely. Once again if you have read what i previously said it external absorption doesn't have to be depicted as that would be useless to everytime. The quincy gain their power externally and you dont see ishida doing that all the time. You say the facts about hollows and shinigami may not apply to hybrids but thats doesnt logically make sense nor can you know that as its speculation to think otherwise cause then your making up what you think happens, even in your explanation about what you think a hollow does, because thats never explained that way either. The fact is the shinigami side is what allows them access to shinigami powers (kido, zanpakuto, shunpo) while they are attributed to having the reiatsu of a hollow more commonly when they wear the mask (hence the use of cero, enhanced ability as well in the ichigo case sonido). The biggest difference is the powers as cero cannot come from a shinigami power source so it has to come from their inner hollow. Having said that the mechanics behind that are far more complex, what we do know is that both the shinigami and hollow aspect play a role as the level of the spiritual power exceeds that of being either one alone and the way they use it is obviously more versatile because of the access to two commonly separate power sets in one being. Something simple and generic describing that should be used to explain the spiritual power of a vizard under the title Enhanced Reiryoku. The problem is currently says absorption when it doesn't need to cause its confusing. Salubri 20:03, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

OK I am sorry about typing the speculation above, truth is I wasn't saying it should be added. With that said the last part this part, "By combining these two properties, Vizard can reabsorb the spiritual power that they themselves give off, making their techniques much more efficiently. They can also take it in from other sources, further boosting their power." is speculation as I haven't heard it said before. If anyone has then please reference it, but I haven't. If it is speculation it should be removed. I don't see how there could be any disagreement on this. Minato 21:00, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

First of all, you have to reference the part where it is said that Hollows attain spiritual energy from their surroundings. If you cannot, then saying that Vizards can do so has no merit at all. If it can be cited, then an additional reference must be found pertaining the same thing to Vizards. If those references cannot be found, then that entire statement is completely speculative, and should be removed immediately. As far as I have seen, such a statement has never been made in reference to Vizards. I have searched for the information about Hollows, but I have yet to find anything. Based on this, it should be removed from the article. It has no proof. As I said before, we should substitute it with a far more general explanation based on what we already know for sure. Mohrpheus 18:47, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

Wow, what a lengthy conversation. I don't know why it's gone on for so long, but since you guys have looked for references and have been unable to find them, and no one else has come on and said, "It's on page such-and-such," then it should be removed. If someone can later prove that it's accurate, then it's easy enough to add back on. Twocents 18:54, December 6, 2009 (UTC)

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/245/16/ Hollows can absorb reiryoku, but based on what Uryu said, only the small ones do. This may be because they absorb small amounts from the air, and devouring souls grant more reiryoku, so larger Hollow wouldn't absorb reiryoku like the smaller ones do, but they can still do it. I haven't begun searching for proof of Vizards absorbing Reiryoku, but when I do I'll post it. :) Grimmjow2 01:05, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Same page on Bleach Exile for an alternate scanlation. He said, "I believe that a creature as small as that can maintain an adequate amount of nutrition simply by absorbing it from the reishi in the atmosphere." The italicized words are important - it says that he's merely guessing, rather than stating a fact, and it also states that it's for nutrition, not to increase or supplement their abilities or powers. And as you pointed out, Grimmjow2, even if his speculation is accurate, it is implied that it only applies to the small Hollows.

As the current statement says "Hollow either absorb spiritual power (Reiryoku) from their surroundings or ingest it from spiritual beings, while Shinigami produce their own natural spiritual power, where some are wasted or leaked out. By combining these two properties, Vizard can reabsorb the spiritual power that they themselves give off, making their techniques much more efficiently. They can also take it in from other sources, further boosting their power." It's quite a bit of a leap to take a guess from Uryu about nutrition for small Hollows and saying that Vizards can absorb their own spiritual power to amplify their powers and abilities.

And as was pointed out by someone above, even if it's applicable to Hollows, that doesn't mean that Vizards were modified in such as way as to make it applicable to them as well. Twocents 01:18, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Ok this is way to long of a conversation on something so simple. As i stated previously take out absorption and place in enhanced. Without getting into the mechanics is fair to say that they have dual spiritual power both shinigami and hollow and therefore potentially more powerful then either one separate. Its simple and from what has been witnessed truthful without getting to bogged down by uncertain details, we have yet to find out. Salubri 01:45, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Right. My problem isn't with the generics of the statement, but rather with the unproven, speculative details. I changed it to say, "Vizard have dual spiritual power of both Shinigami and Hollow, which enhances their abilities." It states what we have seen without guessing on what may or may not have been said in the manga and trying to make potentially inaccurate leaps from what has been said. Though if someone has a problem with that, they are free to say what it is, haha. Twocents 02:06, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

I was going to say that Uryu is 100% accurate in all his estimations/guesses in the past, and that this is an educated guess, however, I wont now. I think we should go with what Salurbi recommended. Grimmjow2 01:56, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

OK I have Admin go ahead. Uryu is almost always one hundred percent right so we can't disregard that, but I will remove as said speculation and use Mohrpheus and Salubris more generalized descriptions. Minato 02:05, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

New Species definition?
Since the species of Kaname Tōsen is now defined as "Shinigami-Hollow hybrid" I was wondering whether this was a more suitable definition for all the Vizards. As I see it a Vizard is not the definition of a species but of a group. Weedefinition 20:42, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Pluralization
I can see that the Visored vs Vizard debate has been talked to death, so I'm not even going to bother bringing up my thoughts on that, but I would like to know why we aren't pluralizing the word as Vizards. It seems pretty obvious to me that multiple Vizards are just that, Vizards. The word exists in English, as you have pointed out numerous times, so if you're going to use that argument, then we should pluralize it properly. Even the romanization that we aren't using (Visoreds) makes it clear that the word ends with an "S" when pluralized in English. And please, don't respond to this by saying that it stays Vizard in plural because it would be too much work to change it at this point, that's not a valid excuse for leaving mistakes in a wiki. CorpusDei 00:58, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I have to agree with you. Arrancar for example, are referred to as "Arrancars" in the English translation of the anime. Despite being the only source, it's the closest hint to an English pluralization that we have. I imagine that the same would go for the Vizards - if I am correct, the English dub also referred to them as such. If "Quincy" is pluralized as "Quincies," then it is only common sense that the same would apply here. Mohrpheus 20:26, December 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * I have moved this discussion to the bottom. Overall I don't see any problem with using the pluralized Vizard as "Vizards". However, eventhough I wasn't involved with the upper discussions please don't even bring up the words Visored or Vaizard. I don't care about Romanization on this word. As far back as I can remember it has been spelled Vizard. Only Visored in the English version. As I said I don't have a problem, but Corpus what happened weeks ago has nothing to do with what I am going to say. First up I apologize for not responding sooner, but please don't bring things up on talkpages when u usually r not on enough to talk about them. Discussions that have already been brought up r fine, but I don't even know when u r going to be back. Minato  03:20, December 8, 2009 (UTC)