Forum:Baragan Luisenbarn

I have some new info that might towards Barragan being a vasto lorde: -Vastos are stronger than the average captain, and he was stronger than Soifon, who is probably the average captain. -He has a humanoid resurrecion -He was the RULER of Las Noches. Seriously, that HAS to mean something. I doubt an adjuchas would rule hueco mundo, let alone las noches.

I don't think that he was really stronger than Soifon. It´s just that his special ability slowed her down. In term of reiatsu I doubt he would win over so easily. Just remember... When Soifon hitted Barragan with her point-blanked Bankai, he was really badly hurt. And you can´t know that he wasn't just an adjuchas. Who knows what Vasto Lordes personalities are... Maybe they don't want to rule as they are lazy as Starrk or something.

I dont see any real information that would make him such a thing being that we dont know enough about vasto lorde to spot one.Salubri 20:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Barragan: He was the size of a Human, the king of Hueco Mundo, incredibly powerfull and even looked like a human(skeleton). Note it took two captain level shinigami to beat him.His power is so great even he is not immune to it.Theres no real dfference bettwen his resurrection na dh what he looked like before Azien other than his crown and Gran Cida. Plus he was pretty much ruling hueco mundo(or part of it) before aizen came along, why would an aduchas ahve such as high standing and such an ability as that. Makes no sense plus the fact that the vizards have to team up with the shinigami(cept for Rose and Love who have not teamed up with any shinigami, but still its sill two captain level shinigami on one arrancar) to beat the espada.Maybe not haaribel seeing as she was pretty much screwed till WW came but I think Stark and Barragan are Vasto Lorde.Saimaroimaru 20:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

What i see is barragan dead. If the opinion of some people is that he was a vasto lorde (something impossible to confirm, seeing as having a position in hueco mundo dosent guarantee dominion over all, one would think if he was so powerful then the other vasto lorde would have a problem with him takin authority seeing that he would be a deterrence to their power, when logically if he wasnt one and lower then that level they would allow him his fantasy of being god-king as he is not a danger to them, even aizen isn't really a concern for them it seems) then the battle against them is gonna go by real quick cause in the end all it would take is a captain using bankai and/or possibly a vizard.Salubri 20:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Or he simply could've been a powerful Vasto Lorde that even most other Lordes wouldn't be interested in messing with him, especially with that huge army backing him up and all (stronger Vasto Lorde with army > weaker Vasto Lorde). Even Grimmjow's gang knew about Vasto Lorde so he couldn't simply have been delusional and not know about Lorde. Plus, Ulquiorra is a dead ringer for the one confirmed VL picture and he's only 4th. ZeroSD 00:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Your point? Vasto Lorde doesn't not mean win.And or? Sorry he had Soifon in the plam of his hands. He aged her attckes so that they explode beofre they reach him. Why would a aduchas has such a powerful ability. Note azien has at least twice the reistu of a cpatin, he count s as two captains plus hi sshikai abillity would give hima great advantage as wwe have seen the Barragan flash back.It took two captain level opponents to beat him an dthey him him on a guess.Barragan may have been the only hollow in his espada that was a threat to him because of his abillity, way to ignore everything else in my post.Saimaroimaru 00:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

A couple of points:

1. Barragan is arrogant and a braggart with a posse of bootlicking faccion. He is trying to intimidate his foes with his supposedly illustrious and powerful badass self. In a situation like this self-bestowed titles like 'king' or 'god' are probably nothing more than chestbeating on Barragan's part. You can't trust what he or his supporters say. And, like Salubri points out, Barragan and his entire Faccion are dead. He failed to back up his boasting.

2. The whole point of using the Breakdown Sphere is to unlock the wannabe Arrancar's power to previously inaccessible heights. The adjuchas class Menos have displayed a wide variety of power levels much like Shinigami lieutenants. Chances are if you unlock a near-captain class Adjuchas with the Breakdown Sphere you are going to get something damn scary. I don't see any contradiction with Barragan being 'merely' a Adjuchas and displaying the power level he had as an Arrancar.

Anyway...I think the current crop of Espada are all Adjuchas, including Barragan. Great Cthulhu 01:55, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Something scary, have you read the chap, hes always been e skeleton, i'll concede for now.Saimaroimaru 02:25, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm talking about power level, not appearance. Appearance doesn't really tell you much at all about a character's power. Great Cthulhu 02:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Barragan was taken out by a Captain, a lieutenant, and a lieutenant vizard working together, taking both a bankai ultimate attack to the face and breaking Hachi's vizard kido. That's pretty impressive. He failed to back up being an actual god, but he did rule a large kingdom in Hueco Mundo for an unknown period of time at the top, seeing no challenges and not considering that there would be stronger until Aizen came along, an odd position with Lorde's existence being common knowledge. Vasto Lorde are the most commanding of all hollows, Barragan had the highest position of any known hollow... fits pretty well there.

-I don't see any contradiction with Barragan being 'merely' a Adjuchas and displaying the power level he had as an Arrancar.-

There's no outright contradiction, but he fits the description of Lordes exactly, better than adjuchas. While there's an outside possibility of him being an adjuchas, there's a lot more hints of the top Espada being Lorde.

It just fits better ZeroSD 02:36, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

LOL...I see what you guys are talking about. No...I didn't get to the absolute latest manga until just now. Interesting story. Yes...that certainly seems like a Vasto Lorde to me. Adjuchas don't seem to wield that kind of political and military power. I suppose that means that Starrk and Harribel are probably lining up to be Vasto Lorde as well. Great Cthulhu 04:12, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not seeing how anyone can make the case of what fits the qualifications of a vasto lorde, seeing as you dont know what they can do or what they truly look like. Its wishful thinking but not able to back it up, plus in the end it doesnt matter all the candidates everyone wants to put forth as being certain vasto lorde (ulquiorra and barragan) are dead. How many more have to die without ever having been confirmed as such for people to stop making up stuff they cant possibly know or even prove.Salubri 04:20, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't making up stuff, I may have been wrong about the Vl but I used the mnaga as my reference.Its called interpretation, when it came to barragan and the vl I was wrong but Iidid not make stuff up, I inperted the material wrong.Saimaroimaru 05:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, it's anime only, but when Gin covers Vasto Lordes and their humanoid nature in the Arrancar segment, the camera pans over the Espada :) ZeroSD 07:31, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Well I think Barragan is an adjuchas and here is my reasoning: (WARNING: IMMINANT SPECULATION!) Barragan appears to have the most dangerous and powerful abilities of all the espada we have so far seen. Yet he is not the primera. Starrk is, and Starrk's powers so far appear to be relatively straightforward, cero's and lots of them. For Starrk to be of greater power than Barragan, especially when you take into account their different abilities, Starrk's reiatsu would have to be so much higher than Barragan's, therfore Starrk is significantly faster and stronger. If Barragan was a Vasto Lorde, then i highly doubt that another Vasto Lorde could be that much stronger, however if he were but an extremely powerful adjuchas, it makes sense that a Vasto Lorde, even one with fairly simple abilities, would be able to defeat him through sheer power. This leads me to the conclusion (speculative however i think that my reasoning is sound) that Starrk is the only Vasto Lorde in the current Espada (leaving out Yammi as there is too much unknown about him to make a judgement either way). BollyW 09:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Who says that Starrk's power has to be much greater than Barragan's? The difference between the 2 could be negligible for all we know. How did you reach the conclusion that Starrk is that much more powerful?

I'm for the theory that Barry's VL. I know we have nothing concrete, but hey, that's what the forum's for! Based on what evidence we have, he does fit most of the characteristics. Some may consider his arrogance too much of a departure from the norm, but that could stem from him being a 'king'. And he has shown the power; I believe Soifon probably couldn't have beaten him alone; we know her bankai wouldn't hit, and I'm not sure if that injury prevents her using Shunko. TomServo101 09:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Starrk's powers are neither subtle nor tricky, especially compared to those like Szyazel Appolo and Barragan. So, Barragan is the segunda, Starrk is the primera. From that we can deduce that Starrk is more powerful than Barragan. From what I have seen, and maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt that any Espada could best an Espada higher than them in a fair fight. Grimmjow couldn't beat Nnoitra, for example, just as I'm sure that Harribel couldn't beat Barragan. Therefore Starrk must be able to beat Barragan in a fair fight. Yet Barragan's abilities give him power greater then that of his spiritual power, i.e although his raw spiritual power is probably approximately that of Soifon's or any other captain's, his abilities mean that he is able to easily defeat them.

Therefore, for Starrk to defeat Barragan he would either have to have abilities that overpower or outmatch Barragan's, or he must be so powerful that even with Barragan's abilities, he still cannot match Starrk. From what we have seen of Starrk fighting, his abilities are not tricky, they are purely power based: i.e, a cero's power is based solely on the users spiritual power, whereas Barragan's Respira would require relatively less power however it's effects are much more dramatic to the amount of power expended. So Starrk must have a far greater spiritual energy then Barragan in order to be able to overpower him through sheer force.

As the self proclaimed God of Hueco Mundo, Barragan was clearly a being of great power. For there to exist such a power gap between him and Starrk, then Starrk would have to be a Vasto Lorde whilst Barragan was an extremely powerful Adjuchas. Note that I am agreeing that the gap in power is actually quite minor, due to Barragan's powers levelling the field somewhat and allowing him to punch above his weight as it were. So although Starrk possesses far greater raw powers, in a battle situation, he is only marginally more dangerous then Barragan.

You're right, there is some speculation in there but I think it's a fairly logical train of thought given what info we have. But you're right, this is what the forums are for, and i look forward to finding out more about Starrk so we can hopefully (fingers crossed) find out more about the mysterious Vasto Lorde. BollyW 11:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Barragan himself said that "He will never forgive Aizen for giving him power". Since the Vasto Lorde is the natural and last evolution of a menos class, how could Barragan be a Vasto Lorde if, even after been enhanced by the Hogyoku, he was beaten by a captain level vizard and a captain. If a VL has twice the power of a captain, he would be harder to beat him. I doubt that Barragan to be eventually a Vasto lorde. By the way we don't know anything about his ax, he used only his Respira and that is all, quite disappointing, #2 espada and only one power (dangerous one though). Adjuchas, espadas & Vasto Lorde, I thought about a possible evolution by following the explanations of Hitsugaya and some other hints through manga and anime episodes...

I wonder... what if Barragan was the last powerful and natural Arrancar not created by Aizen... I wonder, what if Aizen needs all the Espadas to die to allow him to complete the Vasto Lorde... What if Stark, Haribel, Yammy and Wonderweiss are artificial created via the Hogyoku...Baronofash 14:18, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

OK, we have to stop the debate that he isn't a VL just because he was beat by a captain. First off a vizard beat him, which could be beyond captain for all we know, but he only beat him because of his intelligence and an ability that he just happen to have. Barragan was completely beating soifon, and it was over for her until the vizard arrived, and he could have done the same to just about any captain. Honestly the only captain who may have stood a chance was the General (for just pure raw power) or the white hair sick guy (his sword lets him redirect attacks). Just because Hachi was smart then barragen, doesn't mean he was stronger. If he didn't think to transfer the hand in, he most likely would have been killed, seeing as how even his strongest of barriers weren't enough.

I agree. I'm not saying that he IS a vasto lorde, but that the recent chapters point to him being one. This is a THEORY, just so you guys know. And I doubt that an adjuchas would rule hueco mundo, because a vasto lorde could probably just come along and beat him at any time.

One thing that I always thought was an idea was that the top 4 are only adjuchas, but were the closest to reaching the level of Vasto Lorde. Yes, they had human-shaped forms, but that doesn't mean they were vasto lorde. It's a theory, but what if an adjuchas would become more and more human shape before reaching vasto lorde? If you notice the order and the state of their resurrecion, it looks like they became more and more human-shaped with each lower ranking. Ulquiorra had a human-shaed body, but also had wings,Harribel had a complete human-shape, Barragan was a human-shaped skeleton, and Starrk doesn't even look like an arrancar, except for his scope on his left eye. It's just a theory.--Moe1216 17:43, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The strange thing about Barragan is his form before he met Azien, He looks exactly the same as his ressuractions form save the crown and ax look different. Thats strange, as the ressuractions has been usualy the fusion of their true form and their arrancar form and this was not the case with Barragan.As for him becoming more powerful, yes a vasto lorde can become more powerful as hitsuguya said they don't know how much powerful a vasto lorde become as after being arracartized. What is strange also about Barragan is his hollow mask before Azien, where is it? If its the crown then thats the first hollow mask I seen of a hollow or arrncar(if he was a arrancar before he met azien) that lloked like somehing from the human world AND look like its was made of material from the human world(gold and jewels). Thats saids a lot about him. Plus didn't his mask survive, that strange see ing as all things age.What we know of vasto lorde is that they are the ones to take human shape most the time when shinigamified and that they are stronger than Captain Shinigami. Was he stronger than a Captain level Shinigami? Yes, Soifon, even after using her bankai, he still survived unharmed even after the Bankai+ barrier combo he still survived and if it not for the lucky guess by Hachi then both of them would be dust right now. Barragan has shown to be capable of beating a captain level shinigami where most espada didn't. Do I think hes a vl? Yes. But thats my opinion.He being beaten could just suggest he was a weak vl. Remember Azien is equal to two captains as he his reiatsu is double that of a captain and seeing as yamamoto is proably as powerful if not more. One on one only Azien and Yamamoto could take on Barragan as far as shinigami are concern.Saimaroimaru 22:34, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I think that he's too big. I may be wrong but I got the impression that when he used his resurrecion, he doubled in size. Also his form in Hueco Mundo was the same, I think he's an adjuchas. Of course this is all speculation. As for his hollow mask, couldn't it just be his skull? BollyW 23:45, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I can't actually remember where it is confirmed that Hachigen is a " captain class vizard" can somebody give me a reference/sauce for this statement? Because otherwise he is simply still a fukutaicho classed vizard due to the status he is in during the TBtP series of manga. Sanbuntaicho 00:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

- Therefore Starrk must be able to beat Barragan in a fair fight. Yet Barragan's abilities give him power greater then that of his spiritual power, i.e although his raw spiritual power is probably approximately that of Soifon's or any other captain's, his abilities mean that he is able to easily defeat them.-

Where's this 'his power isn't straitforward, so he must be weaker' coming from? Hollows and soul reapers of all levels have varying levels of directness in their abilities.What's to say his special ability doesn't take insane spirit energy to use? I would assume it would, kido-type powers take a ton of spirit energy to make destructive effects. Also in raw power/toughness, he was able to take SoiFon's bankai to the face, so his level of physical power there is still insane. He was a kido type yet his hierro was stronger than Nnoritas', meaning he was not only powerful but varied.

- One thing that I always thought was an idea was that the top 4 are only adjuchas, but were the closest to reaching the level of Vasto Lorde. Yes, they had human-shaped forms, but that doesn't mean they were vasto lorde. It's a theory, but what if an adjuchas would become more and more human shape before reaching vasto lorde? If you notice the order and the state of their resurrecion, it looks like they became more and more human-shaped with each lower ranking. Ulquiorra had a human-shaed body, but also had wings,Harribel had a complete human-shape, Barragan was a human-shaped skeleton, and Starrk doesn't even look like an arrancar, except for his scope on his left eye. It's just a theory.-

Since Harribel's completely human in shape already, why wouldn't she be a VL? The picture of the Vasto Lorde we saw had a clear headdress too. Nothing said VLs have to be exactly human, the evidence even suggests otherwise. The only thing is they tend to be small and are humanoid. That applies to Grimmjow, let alone the top 4. So I don't think what we know suggests the idea.ZeroSD 00:05, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

So in 100 years his abillities isn't at cpatain level by now? Yeah hes captain level if not high ranking captain level. I was talking about shinigami that can fight him one on one not arrancar yes I know stark is stronger, anyone can tell by looking at their ranks, no dip.Saimaroimaru 00:15, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

The crown is his mask as you can see looking at his sealed form. As for his size theres no evidence he doubled in size. Please don't make stuff up.Agaian about HAichi, 10o years has passed his has at least gotten to Captain level by now. Its not like the vizard where frozen in time or anything. As for Barragan now he didn't take on Soifon's bankai, he aged it so that it exploded before it reached him. That why Haichi used a barrier.But he still survived and was about to make dust of them till Hachi made proably the greatest guess in bleach so far.Saimaroimaru 00:20, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to annoy anyone or tread on anyone's toes but i am just simply saying that until there is clear FACTUAL evidence that Hachi is captain class it is safe to assume that although he is stronger, undoubtedely, he may not be captain class quite yet...his Zanpakutoh was not even shown. Sanbuntaicho 00:23, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe his form was defined because the power he transpired rots everything even his mask except his bones. Nonsense, his power aged everything, even buildings, but not the bones as seen with Soifon's and Hachi's arms. It is disappointing to not give more depth to Barragan's character. What his ax was designed for? He even didn't really used it, or did all his power came from this ax? Anyway, the right question may not be "Does Barragan be a VL or not?" but "What is a Vasto Lorde?". The Future would answer the questions. But I would admit myself that Barragan fits quite well my ideas about what could be a VL, powerful and majestic. But without proof I cannot say he is/isn't a VL. Baronofash 00:26, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

His zanpukto not shown?http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/366/02-03/ please read the manga. 100 years has passed he has to be captain class by now, thats clear evidence by itself. Its weird to think in 100 years he would be stuck a vice cpatain level.Either way It took a Shinigami-hollow hybrid and a captain to beat him on a guess.He power came from his body as you see from the rspira or whateverits called.Saimaroimaru 01:19, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

-.Either way It took a Shinigami-hollow hybrid and a captain to beat him- Yea, it hardly matters of Hachi was captain-class (I dunno how that works with kido corps types anyway), it was still a vizard + a captain w/bankai. Oh yes, and her lieutenant too. And he still almost won. ZeroSD 01:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright i'll try once more to explain what i mean: Barragan's powers, such as respira, might require massive amounts of spiritual energy to use, but that isn't the point. The point is that his powers are more destructive for the type, for example, respira is more dangerous than a cero, because even if you dodge a respira, if it touches you at all, as shown with Soifon, you're in real trouble. Whereas if you get the tip of your finger caught in a cero, at worst the tip of your finger is taken off. Secondly barragan doesn't need to rely on speed or hierro to avoid getting hurt as he has his time powers. Compare this to Starrk. Starrk fights with ceros and avoids attacks purely with speed. For Starrk to be able to beat Barragan, his basic powers must be so much more powerful than Barragan's in order to overcome Barragan's advanced abilities. That's a logical line of reasoning, the only assumption being that Starrk must be able to defeat Barragan if he ranks higher than him in the Espada.


 * The next step is slightly more speculative: Would there really be so large a gap of raw power between two Vasto Lordes? I doubt it, therefore Barragan must be a high level Adjuchas, and Starrk must be a Vasto Lorde. Admittedly that isn't too convincing and it relies on too many assumptions, but I think it's hte best theory given what we know. BollyW 04:13, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Why are people getting so hung up over the fact that Barragan was beaten by a vizard and a captain. Obviously there is a difference between power and technique etc.

Without the specialist kido power that Hachi had, they would have had no chance. I'd suggest the idea of counter-abilities comes in to play. i.e 100 kenpachi's might not have been able to take Barragan, but Hachi could.

I think people need to not compare raw power so much, as there is obviously more to it.HOOOOOOOOO 04:37, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Its not the best theory, hes a vl. Barragan being weaker may suggest Starks cero can hurt him fast than he can age it just like when Soifon blast him for the second time, he can't age it fast enough to avoid it. He fits the critera of what is know of Vasto Lorde. Human size? check. Stronger than a captain? Check.Just like their are adjuchas of vary power that must also apply to vasto lorde, Stark is just a stronger vl.If we go by your logic then Zommari isn't an adjuchas because Grimmijow is stronger than him.Saimaroimaru 04:52, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

You make some good points, and like i've said, it is speculative. But your claim that Starrk's cero can hurt Barragan faster than he can age it agrees with what i'm trying to say: that Starrk is so much more powerful, i.e. faster, stronger then him. And I would argue that the gap in raw spiritual pressure, reiatsu, between Grimmjow and Zommari is less pronounced, or smaller then the gap between Starrk and Barragan. As for human size, this is just an impression however I always thought that Barragan's released form was approx twice the size of most humans. Maybe the robes are tricking my eyes though. Anyway! I don't think we can say for certain whether Barragan is/was a Vasto Lorde until we get more info, but my money would be on adjuchas. BollyW 05:30, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think he changed in size between unreleased and released. As for speed and physical ability, keep in mind Barragan can tag freaking Soi Fon, one of if not the fastest captain with his attack and tanked a bankai's ultimate attack to the face. We don't know the gap between Starrk and Barragan, and where are you getting this idea that physical ability 'counts' to total power more than kido and special abilities? They're made of reiatsu as well and use spirit energy just as much. Tousen is probably less physically strong than Ikkaku or at least not far, but is a captain and would destroy him in a fight with kido and special abilities. His blindness bankai is just as much a bankai as Komamura's hitting bankai. Special abilities count for total power too and are a sign of a higher class, just as much as physical abilities, and Barragan's look like they take an insane amount of spirit energy.

Barragan and Starrk both share one thing in common, in that they require more than one captain to take them on. No one else can claim this so far (though as Harribal survived Toshiro's bankai she may join the club). That speaks to me of a difference within a class, not a class difference. Barragan's a kido type, and Starrk's a more direct fighter within that class, that's all, every category has style differences.

Also, the Zommari vs Grimmjow gap is the largest in the Espada if you ask me. Byakuya was pretty casual about his victory, once he bankai'd it was over. Ichigo took a lot of fighting even with his vizard mask, and his bankai wasn't enough to fight evenly with unreleased Grimmjow, he lost that battle. 7 and below were one-sided fights for Captains, 6 and above were not. That's the clearest dividing line in the Espada.ZeroSD 05:57, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You're misinterpreting me. A cero is pure spiritual energy, just like Ichigo's getsuga tensho. But that's all it is, it has no extra power so to speak. So for an individual who can only use cero's to be able to overpower Barragan, his cero's are going to have to be insanely strong, thus, his spiritual power is insanely strong. Soifon's bankai is an example of this, it is purely spiritual energy based and yet thanks to Barragan's powers he still survived a close ranged hit. Yet Soifons spiritual energy is comparable to Barragans, as shown when she was unaffected by his reiatsu where her vice captain was forced to his knees. So Starrk, who uses similar powers to Soifon, must be far far stronger then Barragan to be able to beat him. Hachi only beat Barragan by outsmarting him and because his powers were perfect for fighting Barragan, where Starrk is probably unable to do something like that.


 * The only reason he tagged Soifon was because of his time manipulating abilites, not his speed, although of course as an espada his speed is extremely high. I think the Zommari Grimmjow gap is less than you think, Byakuya was perfectly suited to matching Zommari's powers, and he had to use Bankai to do it. Likewise, Mayuri knew a lot about Szyazel's abilites before he fought him, it wasn't an even playing field. Whereas Ichigo and Grimmjow both battered themselves against each other until one keeled over and died as neither of them has any subtle abilities.


 * I suppose we just see the whole matchup differently, so let's agree to disagree as I doubt this discussion is going to go anywhere from here, and hopefully the next few chapters will shed more light onto the top three. BollyW 06:12, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Well Ichigo would have a hard time fight zommari as well since he doesn't know kido. Once Byakuya used danku to make his abillity usuless he was beat.Some opponents like zommari and Szayel require thinking while opponents like Grimmjow just need you to be stronger.If Renji was able to Bankai on Szayel the battle would have been ended sooner or at least been eaiser.We will have to wait and see if Stark makes any remark pertaining to Barragan's class, he seem to have some respect if little for Barragan.Saimaroimaru 06:15, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Human-shaped skull. God-king of Hueco Mundo. 2nd Espada. It's pretty damn hard to argue against him bein' a Vasto Lorde Kaihedgie 07:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

-So Starrk, who uses similar powers to Soifon, must be far far stronger then Barragan to be able to beat him. - Not really. There's a big difference here in type of attack. If Soi Fon's attack is aged, it detonates prematurely at greatly reduced effect. If Starrk's attack is aged... well, it's a cero, a simple beam, and it can be spammed. Ceros being so instant, I'm not sure if there's anything to age, and even if it's aged into non existence, so what? He fires a dozen more where the aging shield isn't. Fire them at his front, back, etc.. It's spammed, not like Soi Fon's bankai which is one-shot at a time and on a single shot is likely stronger than any of the ceros by a lot.

The reason people think Starrk could beat Barragan, which I'll point out is in turn just speculation, it might be that Barragan could beat his ceros and there's another ability why he's the strongest. Or it could simply be Starrk's better against other targets than Barragan is and Barragan could kill him, Starrk only has the rank due to higher usefulness against other foes. Or it might be Barragan can block the cero, Starrk can avoid the death cloud, and Starrk has more endurance and thus would eventually wear him down, or otherwise win in a way that'd take a lot out of him. In other words, you're reading a lot into Starrk's power based on speculation. We know he has more total power but nothing says he'd have to win by rawly overwhelming Barragan with power. We don't really know how it'd go down.

-The only reason he tagged Soifon was because of his time manipulating abilites, not his speed,- I ment with his cloud attack itself. His targeting speed is high.

-Byakuya was perfectly suited to matching Zommari's powers, and he had to use Bankai to do it. - But the simple fact is as soon as bankai was drawn, it was right over, there wasn't a serious chance. He didn't have the toughness to take a strong bankai level attack. Ichigo or Kenpachi could kill him with a full power strike with one arm (Ichigo was able to match Byakuya's ultimate focused killing ability attack after all), Toshiro would just make sure ice was affected and could use his snowfall attack, and so on. He had a nice trick but the trick had it's counters. I'm not even sure Byakuya needed to do the bankai- if he had been more cautious about getting hit with the first eye, and if Rukia wasn't there, shikai and avoiding his eyes would've eventually done the trick.

7 and 8 both struck me as not-quite full captain level. Close, but not quite there.

- Likewise, Mayuri knew a lot about Szyazel's abilites before he fought him, it wasn't an even playing field. - True, but Renji and Uryu were able to badly wound him at one point, Renji unable to even use his bankai, after he had studied both of them and had the advantage. He had no Hierro to speak of and his science abilities were all he had for significant offense, and they require either observation time or contact, neither of which Byakuya is likely to give (or, say, Soi Fon! Who'd just stab him in the back). Heck, I bet Kenny's win just by charging forward and ignoring ruptured organs :) ZeroSD 07:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * eh you're right about 7 and 8 being high vice captain class at best, but that's only to be expected i suppose. As for the "hard to argue against him being a Vasto Lorde", aside from what i've already argued, I just don't think he was powerful enough. I would have put money on Wonderweiss being one after his display against Ukitake, but now he got royally face kicked by Mashiro I'm not so sure, admitedly I'm also not sure how powerful Mashiro is so it's a moot point. I just think that after how much the Vasto Lorde's have been played up, you think Kubo would announce it before one of them got to showcase their power, and Barragan seemed to be on a similar power scale to the rest of the Espada, 9 = vice-captain, 8,7= high vice captain, 6,5 = captain level, 4,3 = higher than captain level (Ulquiorra couldn't be defeated by Ichigo, who has defeated two captain class opponents and Harribel appeared to be unscathed by Hitsugaya's ultimate power) so therefore 2 would be as powerful as two captains. There doesn't seem to be the jump in power I expected from a Vasto Lorde, kinda like the jump from shikai to bankai.


 * Like I said, we need more information, I doubt any of us can make solid claims. BollyW 10:01, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I for one do think he powerful enough he fits the known things about vl.Tite didn't pump up the vl the fans did. What toshiro said about hollows maybe outdated info is we don'tknow the last time a shinigami encountered a vl before this was said.For now lets wait.Saimaroimaru 18:05, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

-There doesn't seem to be the jump in power I expected from a Vasto Lorde, kinda like the jump from shikai to bankai. - Seriously, you're saying that he's not a VL because he's 'only' strong as roughly two captains? Hitsugaya said that Vasto Lordes were stronger than a *single* captain and that if they faced an *equal number* of VLs to Gotei captains they'd lose. Barragan and Ulquiorra have already gone past what's needed to fit his assessment, and even 6 and 5 are the equals of some pretty high-end captains (it took vizard Ichigo to beat Grimmjow after all).

Like Saimaroimaru said, you're going by fans pumping up the VLs, Tite didn't say anything to raise them up that much. As for the jump between shikai to bankai, the jump between 7/8 and 1/2 is larger than the difference that Renji or Ikkaku or even Ichigo shows between shikai and bankai. ZeroSD 23:51, 30 August 2009 (UTC)