Talk:Chain of Fate

Hollow Power
Where is it ever stated that the hollow powers ichigo has are gained from his training to regain his shinigami powers, in which he almost becomes a hollow? As far as im aware he could have always had hollow powers that were for a time hidden. GinIchimaru 12:40, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

It was made clear that the only power he had hidden was his shinigami powers. He nearly became a hollow, a potential all Plus have even if they don't have the potential to become shinigami, and that is the origin of his hollow powers. Anything else is speculation. Tinni  (Talk)  13:08, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

Where was it made clear? ive never seen it written anywhere that ichigo gained hollow powers from this experience.GinIchimaru 13:33, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what you want me to tell you. The chapters 060 through to 064 make it crystal clear that is how Ichigo gained his hollow powers. I myself wrote the summaries for those chapters for the wiki within the last few months so I assure you the information you are seeking is in those chapters. Lesson two involved his chain of fate being severed. He was then placed down the shattered shaft which accelerated the process of encroachment. Urahara Kisuke then explains to Ichigo that once the process of enrouchment is complete he will become a hollow. Subsequently the process of enrouchment is completed and a hollow hole starts to form on Ichigo's chest but he gains a mask first while his body remains human. Urahara explains this means Ichigo is fighting the hollowfication process. In the meantime in Ichigo's inner world Zengetsu explains that Ichigo has always had shinigami powers and they were hidden deep in his soul and the only time he can find it is when the inner world is collapsing but if the inner world finishes collapsing Ichigo will become a hollow and be killed as such. Ichigo manages to find his shinigami powers but by then most of his inner world had collapsed. He emerges from the shattered shaft wearing a mask and black kimono of a shinigami, i.e. he emerges from the shaft a vizard. Thus Ichigo gains both his shinigami powers and his hollow powers from his time in the shattered shaft. I am not entirely sure how much clearer the entire thing can be. Tinni  (Talk)  14:26, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

Its not made crystal clear at all. I agree there is a high possibility he got his powers that way, but the fact is that tite kubo has never definiatively stated that is how ichigo got his powers, and as such this page shouldnt be saying it is a fact that is how he got his powers. Right now it is only speculation as to how he gained these powers. I will continue to believe this until you link me to somewhere where it is stated for a fact that is how ichigo got his hollow powers. GinIchimaru 14:39, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

It is not speculation. It is quite clear how Ichigo got his power. Do not alter this page. Any alterations will be reverted on sight. I am sorry you need "additional" confirmation but the rest of us are quite convinced with the information given. Tinni  (Talk)  15:12, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

well this wiki is meant to be about fact and not speculation (no matter how fine with it you are) it has never been stated anywhere that this is definately how ichigo has hollow powers, couldve had them from birth and your previous statement just shows you to be an irrepressible fool GinIchimaru 10:38, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

What you are suggesting is an impossibility given the manga as presented. Therefore, the accepted version of events that is backed by manga events stays. If you wish to enter into wild theories then please take it to the forums. There is nothing to discuss here. The manga explains the origins of Ichigo's hollow powers quite clearly. Tinni  (Talk)  14:12, January 1, 2010 (UTC) I apologize for intruding on your conversation or debate but it would be best to say that it's common sense seeing as how it's impossible to be born with hollow powers when one parent was/is a shinigami and the other is most likely human as well as the fact that ichigo resisted becoming a hollow and instead went another way but you couldn't possibly believe that there wouldn't be something strange about him coming out as a shinigami with a hollow mask it was clearly foreshadowing.-- SalmanH  (Talk)  14:29, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Stating that Ichigo gained his Hollow side anywhere other than in the Shattered Shaft is pure speculation. So the choice is solely between keeping it the way it is or dropping any mention of his Hollow side from the article. We know of several ways to become a Hollow/gain Hollow powers: the Hōgyoku, Aizen's experiments in TBtP and the completion of the corrosion of the chain of fate. It is pretty clear that the third option occurred in Ichigo's case, complete with characters saying that he turned into a Hollow, but is resisting. That is not specualtion, and therefore should be allowed to stay. Sure Kubo might say otherwise down the line, but as things are currently presented in the story, that is where he got his Hollow from. But right now, that is what the story states. -- Yyp  (Talk)  14:41, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Ive been a fool, all i can do is apologise. GinIchimaru 15:26, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

It happens.-- SalmanH  (Talk)  16:33, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

??
has this been revisited since Ginjou has pushed out a bit more explanation on how they have their powers?

Irkillroy (talk) 07:56, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

Im not sure what your saying this issue was ages ago and it has nothing to do with the fullbring issue, which is completely different.--Salubri (Talk)  16:55, December 24, 2011 (UTC)

It's the explanation why ichigo has a fullbring. Ginjou says in Chapter 433 page 11 "all of us have a parent who was attacked by a Hollow before we were born", "traces of the hollows power remained in our mothers' bodies which were passed on to us when we were born and the powers are closer to those of hollows than they are closer to those of shinigami."

I honestly don't think that the fact that he had hollow powers is why he has fullbring powers, they how do you explain Ginjou having fullbring?

I'm simply saying that the previous topic that I entered this under has new information to explain why Ichigo has a hollow version of himself. Ginjou when he transforms looks like hollow version of himself which leads to believe with the talk the Captains had about him that he chose to embrace the power of the hollow self instead of reject it like Ichigo did.

Irkillroy (talk) 00:28, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

What your talking about is baseless speculation. The above conversation has to do with the inner hollow. When there is evidence that a human born retaining hollow based reiryoku from an attack on their parents is the same as as a plus falling to despair and going through encrouchment/or the dissolving of walls between shinigami and hollow then that concept may stand as true. But in fact that is not what is remotely being stated or said in any context in the recent story. In fact neither has to do with the other. There is currently no explanation for why Ichigo has a fullbring nor is him having had hollow powers a factual reason either nor does the site claim this. We also do not claim to know how Ginjo has a fullbring or speculate on it. Until such time as information is presented.--Salubri (Talk)  01:11, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

Kugo himself stated that he had a parent that was attacked by a Hollow, explaining why he has Fullbring.--

First, It's not baseless speculation, if you read my reference then you'd see that he in fact states how fullbring is inferered to a human. He also hints in this same issue that he too is a child of a shinigami/human parentage like Ichigo (which explains the Captains interest in giving Ichigo his powers back). The only fact that can be proven is that Ichigo came out of the hole as a Visored, his inner hollow is not because of the mask as he's an extension of Ichigo's Zangetsu, and as a type of point break when he is about to die the hollow ichigo takes over and focus' his power and uses it to it's full potential... something Ginjou obviously embraces which is why his transformation before his death looked like an inner hollow of himself. This can only be explained by fullbring, as this power is a part of them, and has grown with them since birth which is why they take on their form. Ichigo's hollowficaiton during the visored arc show's a completely different transformation (because that's from his hollowfication). These are obviously two completely different entities. As for an explaination for why ichigo has a fullbring... how do you think Ichigo's father met his mother? perhaps while saving her from a dangerous Arancar? who knows, but the fact that you can't prove otherwise means that denying it based on "no explanation" is simply because there isn't enough space in Shonen Jump to explain some of these details. I have details of fact in my explanation which is evidence of the theory which defines it as such. whether they tie together and make sense, that's to be decided. Merry Christmas.

Speculation: form a theory or conjecture about a subject without firm evidence.Irkillroy (talk) 13:41, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

Your not talking to people that dont know the story or whats currently taking place. Your assumptions and opinions at trying to formulate facts based on what you think does not equal being right. we know full well how a fullbringer comes about. Kugo also never makes such a claim, as his entire history is suspect up until it is revealed that he was the first substitute shinigami, this is due to him lying about his history. It also wasnt the captains idea to give ichigo his powers back they helped but that was their choice as well as dealing with a old situation, getting ichigo his powers back was Urahara's idea. Also his inner hollow is a result of the encrouchment from gaining his shingiami powers at the last minute. This is determined already, you cant rewrite the story to fit your assumption. Zangetsu and hollow ichigo share the same physical/spiritual body but they are both halves of his power and entirely separate concepts and entities. It is also shown and stated on many occasions that an inner hollow fully takes over the body and mind and controls it causing the full transformation into a hollow form. Fullbring is also a human only power, and its hollow based (it doesnt make you a hollow) so there is no explanation for ichgio having it under you concept because only his mother was human and there is no proof she ever came into contact with a hollow besides when grand fisher killed her when ichigo was 10. Also Isshin was spiritually unaware and had been for 20 years, we dont know how his parents met but its not likely through anything spiritual as even if it was he would neither be able to see or do anything about it. He didnt regain his abilities until the beginning of the arrancar arc, many years after his wifes death. Ichigo's hollowfication form while fighting ulquiorra expresses no difference besides physical look and overall power then any other time he has transformed and in fact is highly reminiscent of the hollowfied forms Kensei and Mashiro took before becoming Visored themselves. What you are doing is trying to do is write the story based on what you think you have figured the facts to be, using some facts to try and back it. Well we dont do that on this site. This is for facts, stuff readily presented. We dont jump conclusions or speculate on the information thats not our job. Especially trying to connect the dots on stuff you simply cant prove. Bleach Wiki:Speculation Policy. Your not Tite Kubo, so coming here and making statements you cant know as though they are facts and placing them here on a talk page about content trying to make a case that it should be taken as factual is disrespectful to both the author and to people who work hard here to keep that kind of heavily opinionated speculation and yes it is heavily opinionated speculation off of the article pages. --Salubri (Talk)  17:57, December 25, 2011 (UTC)

Chain of Fate's Picture
It doesn't have any picture someone should include it. --Cococrash11 (talk) 02:28, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

Move to Inga no Kusari?
A lot of pages have recently been moved to the romanji of the Japanese titles. I was thinking maybe this article should follow suit. WD  Converse  22:19, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about that. After the fiasco with the Reiou <-> Spirit King thing, the stand on what should be left translated is a little skewed. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  22:23, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

Im pretty sure that items are fine to move. If so i would support the move--God (Pray)  22:32, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know, Items and objects should have their Japanese names (Oken and Oin are an example) but titles should remain in English (otherwise we'd make a mess of the wiki changing all Captain to Taicho and so on), or that's what I understood of the Reio-Spirit King mess. So I guess there should be no problem with this one, but we should ask an admin to prevent misunderstandings. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  22:47, October 22, 2010 (UTC)