Forum:True Strength

Could Tosen be holding back some of his true strength? According to data stats Kenpachi is the weakest among the 13 captains but was able to defeat Tosen's Ban Kai during the Soul Society arc. But after his betrayal, Tosen was able to cut off Grimmjow's left arm with ease. Could he have lost the fight with Kenpachi on purpose or was simply not using his full strength?

Actually since Kenpachi is stronger than grimmjow and that the latter was focusing on aizen at the time along with tosen's mastery of shunpo he was capable of cutting grimmjow's arm off just like how Ukitake was focusing on the giant hollow and not on wonderweiss who was capable of stabbing him through the chest.-

I look at the stat charts as a general outline not to really compare captains cause by the definition of you being a captain your powerful then all other shinigami. It mainly details what they have an affinity for rather then saying they have more power, just like in anybody some people have skills that others dont and others are better in certain areas. Taking that into account bleach tends to go by the rule what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Kenpachi is stronger since his fight with ichigo and the same can be said for anyone we have seen in various battles throughout the series. Having said that there is no reason to believe Tosen was holding anything back, he despises kenpachi and always has so he was intentionally trying to kill him, though kenpachi proved even stronger then the skills he possessed. Now the situation with grimmjaw is basic you can't really use it because he basically did a sneak attack which he seems to have a specialty for. Grimmjaw didnt see it coming and before he could properly react it was to late, they weren't in a battle they were just talking he didnt expect to be attacked, thats all there was to it there was really no question of strength involved in that but to show tosen's skill in shunpo and and kido.Salubri 16:59, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I like to think that he is holding back. I say this because I take in consederation of how well Aizen plans things out. At the time Tosen lost his battle when Aizen's plot wasnt uncovered yet and Tosen was not considered a traitor. So he could have lost that battle just to keep their cover in front of Kono. When you look at when they went to HC Tosen injuries were not even visible. We I dont really know who healed him and if someone did I dont think he would have healed that fast unless Im missing something. I also think that Aizen doesnt want have any one who cant handle their own on his side. I know his abilities were important but if Hariko could see thru Aizen's Zanpakto then Tosen Bankai shouldnt be that much of a issue either. Lets not forget that he did acheive Bankia well before he became captian which also a part of Aizen's plan. He know he uses the element of surprise but I still think that he has more in store than what was displayed Tealang99 17:28, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I don’t think he is rely holding back, it more so that because he is a very well rounded captain (apparently he proficient with flash steps swordsmanship and kido) and because of the few times we see him fight and his discrete “sneak attack style of fighting we don’t really have a chance to see him fight all out. The only time that we really do see him fight is when he fight Kenpachi Zaraki. In my opion this isn’t really a good showing of Kaname Tōsen strength because of the way the two of them fight Kenpachi Zaraki is a bezerk mele fighter that doesn’t really care about his well being. While Kaname Tōsen has a fight style that is rather “ninja” like in the way that he prefers swift one strike type attacks, Kenpachi Zaraki has astounding durability and he lack of caring for his life makes him the perfect counter to Kaname Tōsen and his very difficult to counter bankai. But we haven’t seen him use much offensive kido so there is some support for the “holding back” theory. Also off topic but dose anyone think that because Kaname Tōsen has to “shiki” one that is obviously for “incapacitating” the opponent and one that is obviously for attacking the opponent that he may have two “bankais” the bankai we have seen looks like the “incapacitation” bankai so dose anyone think that there maybe a second unknown attacking bankai?--Trippyfalls 19:54, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I dont think he has a second Bankai because the one he has know is the best for and his abilities as a blind shinigami. To relieve others of their senses and still be able to use his own ablities. He already has a heighten senses so stop every one elses is just perfect for him. I think its more than just a coincidence that his zanpakto turns out to be so perfect for him sense he uses some one elses. Now the real questions is "did he materealize his own zanpakto and if so what are his true abilities?" Questions like this makes me think that he is holding back and might turn out to be more of a problem than we can imagine.Tealang99 20:32, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I would think that he did get a zanpato of his own because he with through the academy, but the one he is using is the zanpato that belonged to his dead friend who believed in a path with the least bloodshed. And I completely forgot that he was blind…..--Trippyfalls 20:36, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

See we can't put Aizen's plans into it because there is significant flaws in your reasoning. Tosen doesn't like zaraki and thats his motivation in this fight, secondly Aizen's plans involve getting rid of the captain's in the first place so sooner rather then later would make more sense especially seeing giving the circumstances of them fighting it would the best opportunity to do something he wouldnt normally be allowed to do, had kenpachi not helped ichigo and friends. Third why would he need to downplay himself for komamura he didn't careless to even answer for himself when komamura confronted Aizen not but a few minutes after. A matter of minutes wont matter cause it was in that time that aizen admitted to unohana that tosen has always worked for him. Also Tosen's injuries were gone true enough but there is alot of times in the series where someone is hurt and a few minutes later their all patched up and ready to go. If anything that just shows how durable tosen is like any other captain. Also Hirako could see through Aizens power but it is neither confirmed if at that time aizen's powers weren't refined yet or whether he intentionally did that to lure hirako into a false sense of security about him. Also thats speculation that tosen having learned bankai fit into aizen's plan, it could just happen that using his bankai is more effective for what he had to do.Salubri 21:22, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

I understand what you mean but if that was the case then He would have killed as many captians that he could have before he left for HC. I mean he didnt even kill Hitsi. He wounded him pretty badly but if he wanted to he could have killed him right then and there. All Im saying is Aizens is a very smart stratigiest. The only thing that he did not plan on was Ichigo being as strong as he is and Ichigo causing as many issues as he does. Im not saying that Tosen learned his bankai just for Aizen plans. Im saying that Aizen planned on Tosen using it. Thats all. I really cannot see Tosen just displaying all his power already. We all know Kenpachi is strong. And in a even battle I feel Kenpachi could defeat Tosen. I just dont think that Tosen did all he could to do to win that battle. Tealang99 12:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

But see thats still assumptions. Aizen may have not intended to kill hitsugaya then and there but that was aizen. Tosen is his own person he has a problem with kenpachi and thats why they fought he shows how much disdain he has for people like kenpachi when he attacks grimmjaw, aizen didnt tell him to, he probably knew he would but it was entirely tosen's choice both times. Also thats an assumption that aizen planned on him using his bankai there is no way you can know that, as its never stated. Just like you stated as good as a strategist as aizen is there are things he cant see coming. Thats the main reason why he isn't involved in this conversation as its about tosen not him. Also we saw the even battle between the two and kenpachi did beat him, tosen used bankai and everything, by your concept if he wasn't using all he could to win he would have ended up dead, which isnt a good strategy as Kenpachi wasn't playing around in the sense that this was a fight and also a fight initiated by tosen. Not showing his full strength would get him killed who would he have to trick komamura wasnt the issue kenpachi was who he was fighting. Kenpachi beat him and with no bankai. Is there more to tosen sure i dont discount that just like there is more to all the captains. Even as much as we have seen from byakuya and hitsgaya i personally still think they have skills and abilities we have not seen because they weren't used or warranted in the situation. As far as that battle previously i wouldnt use it, that battle between kenpachi and him is done and over with. They probably wont fight ever again and probably wont see each other again. Can he use his skills that he as yet to show and use his skills we have seen now yes, could he fair better against another captain possibly, could he still lose possibly. But whether he was using his full potential in that battle i do believe he was, now if your just commenting on him using all his skills as a captain then no he wasnt using them true enough. Would it had changed anything if he did, well we will never know.Salubri 12:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I think I agree with Salubri now on whether he is holding back some extra abilities. This may be abit off topic but could he have become stronger? Or is Aizen just using him as a pawn maybe? OdoriZame 13:15, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Thats is exactly what I am saying. I feel he did not use all his abilities as a captain to defeat Kenpachi. Now I can see what your saying about their battle. Now that I think about it Tosen was caught off guard by the power that Kenpachi truely holds which caused his defeat. Thats the reason why I am saying that Tosen is stronger than what is seen. I think there is still a chance that they will meet again and IF they do Tosen might not go down so easily like before. Time will tell of course but its always good to think about each scenario that could play out. Tealang99 13:34, 9 July 2009 (UTC)