Forum:Ichigo Substitute Shinigami

I am just wondering, why is Ichigo still considered a Substitute Shinigami? Didn't Byakuya Kuchiki destroy Rukia's powers in him, thus making Ichigo use his own? Dracinking 16:58, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Im not sure where your at in the story but Ichigo isn't considered a substitute shinigami until after he saves Rukia and given the status by captain Ukitake before returning home. He is not a full shinigami in that he doesn't officially work for them (acting as more as an subordinate ally) nor is he truly dead" having a actual human body. Salubri (Talk)  17:06, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

He is still called Substitue Shinigami in the Captain Amagai Arc. Dracinking 17:11, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Yes and that will always continue to be the case. that is his ranking in soul society (hence he is human and only a shinigami some of the time, having not actually died and formally joined the gotei 13) the term is not referring to his species. As far as species he is not even a actual shinigami (having gained hollow powers) though it is used to describe him for lack of a better word, but actually a vizard as they have claimed him as such and so has he as well, but considering the term is only used by them no one else calls him that and most consider him a shinigami though commonly called a substitute amongst soul society. Salubri (Talk)  17:26, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

While he may still be only a substitue soul reaper, can he still be considered human? correct me if I'm wrong but he ceased being human when his chain of fate was cut from his body by Kisuke Urahara in episode 17 of the first season. As I understand it, and again correct me if I'm wrong but, because his chain of fate was cut and as a result he started to hollowfy, would have not had to be a spirt being at that point? And if so would he not be wearing a gigi like the rest of the soul reapers have to in the world of the living just so he can keep up the appearance of being a somewhat normal high schooler/brother/son/friend? also consider that his dad was and still is a soul reaper, an ex-captian none the less, wouldn't this make him some sort of hybrid day one?

Ok well its simple he still has an actual human body, not a gigai. Thats the human part, he is just one whose spirit is actually able of leaving the body though you maybe correct in that in alot of ways he treats his body like a Gigai but if you have noticed he has to make sure the body is protected as its real, No one cares if a gigai is messed up you can just make another one but it is his real body that he has Kon keep safe. Also the father has been talked to death as well. There is nothing that says the breaking of a chain of fate makes you a spirit. Also you can't be a hybrid of a spirit and human that doesn't make sense. The situation is complex though a shinigami can become a human by having his powers taken by a certain form of gigai similar to what rukia had before returning to soul society the insinuation is that isshin's gigai made him human and it is only recently that he has gotten his powers back. It is also assumed that Urahara was behind it, though Isshin apparently was for this. So it appears that ichigo is of two humans. Though his spiritual potential is what comes from his father. Salubri (Talk)  05:21, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

If he is still human, then what was the whole point in making sure that Orihime Inoue's chain of fate was still attached to her body in episode 3, Ruika said that she was still alive because her chain of fate was still connected to her body. Not only was Ichigo's Chain cut but he even was right on the verge of becoming a hollow. correct me if I'm wrong but only a spirit can become a hollow. If he is still using his body, would it not take on the role og a Gigia bcause of the lack of a chain of fate conecting the his spirit to it? And as far as Kon is concerned, remember mod couls can bring any "body" to life (teddy bear, Purse, other stuffed animals) so Kon should be able to live in a Gigai. if none of this is so, then why would the writers spend time even introducing the concept of a Chain of Fate? Also Hybrid might have been a pour word choice on my part, but still would he not be something more than human but maybe not, because of birth, a shimgami? If Not, why would the writers introduce the concept of a Chain of Fate?Amolchan001 05:38, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

First your putting a situation of someone else on him. Rukia states that Orihime isn't dead as long as the chain of fate is unbroken she can still use kido to heal Orihime's body. Meaning she isn't dead technically as a spirit. There was no going back if the chain was cut. Ichigo intentionally initiated encroachment for the purpose of becoming a shinigami though the process has the possibility of making one a hollow if he does not succeed in attaining shinigami powers he will become a hollow. His chain was cut for this purpose. He gained shinigami powers the same rules dont apply as they do with regular spirits, especially considering his actual body was never harmed it never died. Ichigo has a human body not a gigai which is a construct made to seem human for all its purposes. I think that where you are confused is that using it similar to how other shinigami use gigai and if it is actually one or two separate things. How he uses it doesn't really matter the fact that its not one is significant. Kon has nothing to do with the chain of fate, he is a mod soul a lab made creation, yes he can use a gigai similar to the way shinigami use soul candy. While soul candy are similar to mod souls but originally made for different purposes. The only thing Ichigo's parentage has affected is his spiritual connection and power. Even while not a shinigami he possessed an ability to see spirits and was high in spiritual power unlike most humans. His sisters are similar in this regard which is why they were attacked in the beginning as explained by Rukia. Once again this has nothing to do with the Chain of Fate. The Chain of Fate is what binds souls to their living body. When the Chain of Fate is broken, an erosion will take place from the end of it after being broken. Once this happens a gradual process of Hollow transformation takes place. Im not sure what role you may have thought it played but its really simple. Salubri (Talk)  06:52, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Salubri, are you using the manga or anime as reference? from what I understand from the anime is that once the someone's chain of fate is no longer connected to their body that person is considered a spirit. Ichigo speciffically asked Ruika if Orihime Inoue was alive or a spirit because she could see him and she was out of her body. Rukia answerd him by saying that she was alive because the chain of fate was still attatched to her body. Also in the anima we have sean how hhollows are created twice, once in the don kijoy episode and the other when Ichigo himself becomes a hollow. the first ime we all could tell it was a distirbed spirit and the second time Kisuke Urahara cut his chian of fate, told him he can not return to his body because he was a spirit. I wish I had a transcipt of the episodes but go to Youtube and watch episodes 16-20 english dub. Also since Kisuke Urahara tells him he can't return to his body, he has to use either his body as a gigai or a real gigai. the only reasons I can come up with that he is considered a substitue soul reaper are because he has to go back to the world of the living and keep up appearances for his family and his friends who aren't in on it, and becuase he did not become a soul reaper through normal channels (A.K.A. going to the soul reaper acadamy, joining one of the 13 court gaurd squads, being reborn in the spirit world...). if there is more information to clarify this issue in the manga, I understand that anything said in the manga is considered canon if the anime contradicts it, however being a poor jobless college graduate I do not have the money to go out and buy the manga to look this stuff up and none of the websites I've been to have stated anything that would make me change my position.Amolchan001 21:42, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

Well first and foremost you have to use Manga, it is written and drawn by Kubo himself not the anime which takes certain liberties to flesh out the story for tv and sometimes in accurate to his meaning. Your going entirely by episodes which isn't credible as source material when its only based on manga and not whats actually put forth from Kubo himself. As far as him keeping up appearances thats not true, there is nothing saying thats true. If your dead your sent to soul society where you live, its against the law for a actual shinigami to stay in the human world for any long term amount of time least interacting with those from your previous life. Especially the last point as their is to much danger of becoming a hollow and killing them (a normal soul) and to much danger of enticing hollow to you because of the spiritual power you give off. Also the fact that significant spiritual power can give humans powers. There are a number of reasons. He is a substitute cause he is not actually dead in a normal sense his human body was never killed as well as the reasoning you gave. That in fact is a title first given by authority of Ukitake. This is explained about the title on the Shinigami page here. As far as what Urahara tells him your correct to a point. He also says that there is a way to continue living and not become a hollow, which is for him to become a Shinigami. Its a small detail but because he has actual body he is still alive while in it. The only significant difference is that he is a Shinigami when he leaves it. Hence not a normal spirit and thus not under the rules of a chain of fate. No other shinigami has this situation they have no true body though they can become human again but that is another issue. Also simply go to one manga and you can read all the bleach you want from the start for free as we all do. Also here alot of this information is explained on the respective pages. Chain of fate, Hollow. If you need any help in this regard or have any specific questions that are confusing to you. Hit me up on my talk page. Salubri (Talk)  23:23, February 8, 2010 (UTC)