Forum:Zanpakuto Arc Pt. 2

Even with so little shown as far as the episodes so far. This arc is so sick. I cant even believe the information flowing out of this arc its crazy. So from my previous post on zanpakuto arc, turns out im right about the whole they couldn't get Ryujin Jakka and having to get the general out of the way thing. Cool so Rukia's getting owned by Sode no Shirayuki and Byakuya what happened who knows (we all know he's fine) but still interesting. The zanapkuto spirits are devastating to say the least without the Gotei 13 are at a disadvantage. Whats interesting the Sogyo no Kotowari and Katen Kyokatsu was all that was needed to seal the general, which completely makes sense. The zanpakuto spirits wielding their shikai form and turning into their bankai form and attacking its crazy. Can't wait for more.Salubri 02:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, I like the information of this demi-filler. However, bleach fillers have this certain feel of... almost stupidity among the characters in order to advance the plot. In all the time of fighting the spirits, all of them opt for using their now-powerless zanpakuto, and only in one instance is kido used (by Byakuya to bind Kazeshini), and none after that. Had he used a high-level kido or maybe even his level of Sokatsui, he could have blasted the released form of his Zanpakuto. The marked "stupidity" is that he used a technique that worked, and then didn't use it again. It's like wielding two swords and breaking one, then insisting on using the broken one exclusively despite the other one working fine. It's nice to see some original material in this otherwise filler, but they could have plotted it better. And we know Kenpachi would have had no trouble there, why do you think he wasn't on the scene? Ahh well, this had better have a good conflict to it. (And the odds are that the fight is also going to be Sokyoku hill, they'll probably also run the dangai again).

I agree that they do seem to act a bit idiotically in these filler arcs, like Renji trying multiple times to activate shikai even when he knew it didn't work, or characters have a tendency to say or do things just for taking up more episode time, like watching Rukia scream "nii-sama" again and again. But I kinda get the kido thing, since in general, most Shinigami seem to rely on using their swords more than using kido. And to suddenly change your fighting style would be difficult. Twocents 04:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

This arc is OK so far. And yes...I agree that the characters are acting rather stupidly to the events. I was expecting to see some awesome new Kido rolled out to make the fight more evenly matched. On top of that there was Ichigo not even questioning if his zampakuto would remain or still is loyal or if it would become subject to whatever power is making them traitorous. Ichigo, frankly, is the last person you want to send into a potential catastrophe like this since 80% of his power is because of Zangetsu.

Complaints aside its still a very interesting arc. I like all of the spirit forms and their sheer viciousness. You wouldn't expect Momo's zampakuto to be so willfully destructive. Great Cthulhu 04:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I follow the style change idea, but it can't be that hard for a captain, who is (with some exceptions) skilled in more than just one field. Well, let't wait... 5? episodes for them to send Ichigo in, who (as a main character) is exempt from the disease/curse/crippling injury/sniper fire/etc. that usually incapacitates most characters in these circumstances. I'd say it would also be a good plan to get Kenpachi in (who might actually be stronger if his zanpakuto's power was gone), and Yoruichi, and Tessai, and well, maybe drag the mod souls in, they usually do in fillers. I also smell a fight against Zangetsu's spirit during Ichigo's upcoming encounter with Muramasa (he'll appear, Ichigo will attack (once?), he'll cast his spell, Ichigo spends 2-3 episodes grappling with Zangetsu. Then comes some kinda chase scene or a systematic fight with each spirit).

Sorry to be throwing posts left and right. I do like how vicious they are, but is this their real character or is it influenced? Hitsugaya's meeting with Hyorinmaru suddenly shattering and Zangetsu's odd dialog seems to point at them being influenced without their knowledge. I'm guessing these spirits are distillations of the darker aspects of their personalities.

I concur Great Cthulhu. It does seem odd that Ichigo and Urahara simply said that because they were on Earth, they were exempt from losing their Zanpakuto and didn't even consider the possibility. I do, however, find it interesting that the Zanpakuto chose to left for some reason, as seen by how Yamamota's Zanpakuto chose not to, which makes me wonder their reasons for doing so. However, I don't really have any complaints about this arc. As far as fillers go, I find this one to be deeply fascinating, and it's actually kind of nice to follow two different storylines between the anime and manga, rather than watching the anime censor or otherwise adjust my favorite scenes from the manga, to drag it out or make it more interesting or whatever. Twocents 04:30, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Well its already stated by the simple title for the 4th episode Ichigo will fight Zangetsu as he will turn on him. I don't see much danger in that fight considering that while Zangetsu is majority of his power in a fight, Ichigo has already been through this to get his bankai. Also its not seemingly relevant about the spell or whatever not effecting those in the real world. That seems to be the case as we have seen so far, Urahara is usually the brains in this matter so there is really no reason to doubt him. Ichigo not seeming to be really concerned is probably a more important issue i would think. Also in the last post I had came up with the idea that Yamamoto was taken out of the equation as he is so old and powerful and his zanpakuto is the oldest in soul society, the most powerful fire type and has the greatest attack power in all soul society. So it was more inclined to be more attuned to yamamoto then any one elses zanpakuto was to them. Then Maramasa basically says that they had to seal him because his zanpakuto wouldn't cooperate with him, thus confirming my suspicion. I do agree that the characters arent really doing enough in the fight but to be fair its only the 2nd episode. This arc is interesting but presents a significant problem in how its suppose to come about to an end if the primary means of combat is being taken out but this is a good chance to see skill outside of the zanpakuto. Zanjutsu, Hoho, Kido, Hakuda. All will be the only thing to do combat with. Know one knows their zanpakuto better then those who wield it. I'll wait for more this info is good.Salubri 04:44, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I can think of several reasons for why the Zampakuto are so vicious. One is they are controlled by Murumasa and are doing his will. Two is that the power that gives them independence corrupts them in some way so the negative aspects come forward. Three...they are weapons first and foremost. They aren't being MORE vicious...they are simply doing what weapons do and wreck stuff. Great Cthulhu 04:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll go with the attunement on that, Yamamoto and his zanpakuto are very old, and from appearances and his style, they've fought together for a very long time, any doubts or issues they've had have probably been resolved. I almost get the impression that Ryujin Jakka is like a loyal dog, he seems the type who mastered bankai by completely beating down the spirit. Being so loyal, Muramasa's spell probably doesn't have any negative emotions or doubts to play on to make him rebel.

It's hard to say to what degree they're being manipulated. It's possible that Murumasa simply provided an out for them, through the spell that they could not provide for themselves, and for a variety of reasons, they took it. I would agree that they're just doing what weapons do though - no one could argue that weapons are intended for any reason other than destruction. Twocents 05:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

That is true weapons will do what they are made for, so we cant fault them for that. But even with this arc and the spirits independence. we can't forget that the zanpakuto spirit is an individual but its also apart of its wielder's soul so either way whatever purpose they are going for it seems to be against themselves thats the weird thing. So they must be controlled and manipulated if the wielder dies they die to that was stated at the beginning of the episode. What is the murumasa guy up to if the spirits wipe out their wielders they are gone and then what happens he is left to rule.Salubri 05:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

This arc presents a very good storyline. Renegade Zanpakuto's of our favorite characters, showing their appearance and personality which many have been wondering about. I can't help but wonder what will happen further on in the story. I believe that most likely, everyone's gonna have to fight their own Zanpakuto. It will be interesting seeing how they fend off with out their main weapon, which they use 85% of the time, maybe even more. But I do hate how they make the Captains so weak. The fox/wolf captain lost in one strike and under a min. The other captains are helpless as the Zanpakutos destroy Soul Society. I can re-call a number of times where the captains have held their ground against an enemy with just their sealed sword. This should be almost the same situation. And they are should be skilled in all the forms of fighting(Zanjutsu, HoHo, Kido, etc.). The 13 captains are supposed to be the strongest in Soul Society yet they were over powered so easily. I think Byakuya could've held his ground a bit longer in that short match with Senbonsakura. I would expect people like Renji, Ikkaku, Yumichika, and Rukia to be beaten so easily, but the others have no excuse. I'm also wondering whether or not Rujin Jakka will make an appearance also, that would be epic. The Zanpakutos are being manipulated in my eyes. To me they have no reason to be angry at the Shinigami's. Rujin Jakka is probably so strong, he can't be manipulated, which led to sealing the Commander.--Mr.Zeke 05:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Byakua's battle, I do find it very strange that for someone known for his exceptional skill in shunpo, he was easily caught. Twocents 05:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, we all know how this arc will end. I mean, come on. Of course, Ichigo's Zanpakuto has to be the ONLY one still working. I mean, even if Benehime is working, i doubt we will see a Bankai or action from Benehime. Honestly, this will end with Ichigo defeating all the spirits, then killing Muramasa in a supposed "epic" battle, whoopy doo, and we go back to Ulquiorra vs Ichigo. --Seireitou 05:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, Mr. Zeke. They have every right to be pissed at their owners. For example, Rangiku never once tries to reach common ground with Haineko, even yelling at it when it refused to appear. Momo shows incredible weakness, due to her naivite, and lack of murderous drive. Hisagi refuses to use Shikai, like pretty much ever, not allowing Kazeshini to do what it wants. And even Byakuya, Senbonzakura was never appreciated. It was treated like no more then a simple replaceable katana. In my opinion, the Shinigami are to blame, for allowing their Zanpakuto to feel this way. Zangetsu, along with Ryujin Jakka, were loyal to their masters. Ryujin Jakk couldnt be presuaded, because it was probably loyal to Yamamoto, resulting in needed force. In the end, the Shinigami need to see that they and the Zanpakuto are a symbiotic team, working together for eachother's benefit, not just the Shinigami's. --Seireitou 05:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I think it's a combination of manipulation and justified anger. And to actually add something to the conversation - did anyone else notice that when Muramasa summoned his blade that the light formed a symbol that looked quite a bit like geass? I'm not saying that the producers are doing anything crossover related, but it just seems kind of odd to me with that and the way he seems to have control (the organized kind, not total control) over the spirits... Ancient Chaos 06:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Did you read anyones post besides the last 2 all this was expressed and zangetsu does turn on ichigo like 4th episode hence its title. Actually the zanpakuto are separate spirits but part of the wielders soul its not lost on them the connection. It's quite obvious they are being manipulated this is not of their own will, if they dont feel the wielder is worthy of their power they wouldn't work for them at all that simple no need for a arc. Haineko is just as moody as Rangiku is so no thats not a true statement to say that the shinigami brought it on, they in fact know them the best. They have similar personalities. What proof is there that senbonzakura isn't appreciated. You also dont allow a weapon to do what it wants that makes no sense either. Momo's weakness is hers personally it has little to nothing to do with her zanpakuto. Hisagi's refusal to use his shikai is his personal choice it makes no sense that it would be an issue. Yamamoto was sealed because Ruyjin jakka is more attuned to him as they are so old, they cant get it to come over to their side. Thats all your personal view but it doesn't hold true from what we know. We dont know how this will end but it will most likely have to do with personal battle between those wielders and their zanpakuto spirit. Ichigo's involvement may have more to do with zangetsu and possibly a fight against Muramasa but then again he might not be the one who does it.Salubri 06:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

looks like "inner struggle" may be included, we've had the "obligatory character stupidity", now I think it's time for "reused scenery", I'll bet there are fights for just about every character and their spirit, going by the episode names. Too soon to make the complete pattern, but maybe 2 fights per character, getting beaten once and then winning the next one? They've got just enough material and plot that the usual filler filler (character stupidity, heavy reuse of scenery, strong characters beaten easily, and episodes that don't expand the plot) won't ruin it entirely. SO: another fight, running to SS, fight muramasa once, spell is cast, inner struggle(s?), and maybe they start winning?

Strong characters beaten easily? Hardly you forget something that's very foundametal to them, their Zanpakuto. To say yeah the Captains got beaten like it was nothing just for the sake of moving the story along is not at all correct. Captains were fighting Captain level Zanpakuto. It is known that just as Shinigami grow stronger so do their Zanpakuto, a Shinigami main means of fighting is their Zanpakuto and is releases. Right now they are fighting an enemy which knows them too well, has their power and they are hadicapped, to call them acting weak is a soundless statement. As far as the Zanpakuto why they rebelled or how did they fall under Muramasa control, it hasn't been revealed yet so to say that they were under appriciated or that the reason that ruijin jakka was not able to fall under their command because he and Yamamoto are "attuned" to each other is nothing but especulations (not saying that that is not the case just saying there is no info to back it up). And for the Epic battle... Ichigo kills all the spirits than Muramasa someone hasn't been paying to much attention to the past fillers so let me refresh it for you.
 * Bount arc: Ichigo fights with Karija he doesn't kill all the Bount by himself. Kariya kills himself.
 * Amagai arc: Ichigo doesn't fight everyone that has a Bakkotto, He fights Amagai, and Amagai kills himself.

So no I don't think that Ichigo will beat all the spirits and kill Muramasa. WhiteStrike 07:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about that remark, the spirits would be high-level, it is kinda hard to fight without your usual weapon against multiple targets including one who knows you well. It also comes to mind that attaining bankai means subduing (fighting and defeating, it would seem) their zanpakuto spirit. The exact details of each bankai trial are unknown, but it would seem like beating them without the help of the zanpakuto's power was the point. So maybe they are also being enhanced to some degree?(gotta re-view and see if their appearance or fighting had any connection with the blood tears.) As for fillers, I do remember the fight order, though I did space out of the bakkoto arc in the early half, too much filler-filler(which kinda spoils my attitude towards bleach fillers in general). Pattern is probably each to his or her own spirit, Ichigo fights Muramasa, he defends, some spell, then Zangetsu then Muramasa after the remaining spirits have fallen. Maybe this filler will have hope, it's a demi-filler, after all.

My problem is those who have not achieved Bankai. Seeing as subueing and beating your Zabpukto spirit is part of the bakai process i makes me wonder if theose without bankai beat their Zanpakuto spirit in this arc then will they have bankai afterwards? I smell plothole.Saimaroimaru 08:21, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Well lets not forget its a filler, there can be no plothole it has to end when the filler is done, though if you mean how sometimes they have a storyline that leaves it open in contrast to what is developed in the manga it is true they tend to do that.Salubri 15:30, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Why Zaraki isn't there? He is the Captain whose zanpakuto we know least about, and just like Ichigo's, his is released at all times, and I think the authors either don't want to spill information about his powers or haven't worked them out yet. I think Ichigo's fight(s) in this arc will go the same as against Amagai. He'll activate his Hollow powers, which prevent him from losing his Bankai.

UnitRico 17:36, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I think it's fairly obvious why Zaraki isn't there. Tite has already expressed that he'd like to further go into his character, and if the anime does something that's completely opposite of what Tite decides to later do, then it'd simply be confusing. I think that's probably why they've mostly stayed with doing characters that we know more about their Zanpakuto's abilities than trying to make up details about characters where little to nothing has been revealed. Twocents 18:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

TwoCents I can totally agree with that. I mean this would be a good time to introduce Zaraki Zanpakuto but I think that this Arc wouldnt be able to go in depth like the Manga would about his story. What I mean by that is I feel in order to give Zaraki the just background he deserves, he will need more than a filler arc to do so as well the full attention of the audience. This filler is just to past time till we get back to the Arrancar Arc again. Tealang99 19:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

To answer Saimaroimaru's question about non-bankai user's spirits, don't forget Renji was able to materialize his spirit before he attained bankai (way back when he was training during SS arc). We have proof that Rangiku and Yumichika are trying to attain it (without success lol), and a lot of fans (maybe not so here, but elsewhere) have Shuhei and Momo down as candidates to get it. It would make a fair bit of sense for them to be able to materialize their spirits, even if their training for bankai is not yet finished, if only to make themselves stronger. (Maybe their status as acting captains could have something to do with it) TomServo101 19:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Ichigo's bankai training did include him having to fight Zangaetsu but at the same time Zangetsu was also teaching him. I remember in a flash back during Ichigo's fight with Byakuya, in the training Zangetsu was teaching him how to use Getsuga Tenshou, so I wouldn't think just fighting your Zanpakuto once will allow to achieve bankai. But I'm not saying it wouldn't help. As for the lieutenants getting bankai, that I would dis-like. Bankai is said to take years to learn and the strongest form of a Zanpakuto which takes time to control. First Renji obtains it, then Ichigo, then Ikkaku. Tousen even had it, and he was 5th seat. If other lieutenants achieve bankai, it would just make me feel like every one can do it.--Mr.Zeke 21:30, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, Ikkauku had Bankai long before either Renji or Ichigo, as that was one of the reasons Renji asked Ikkauku to train him, back when he was a member of the 11th Division. But I do agree with you that I don't think Bankai is achieved simply through defeating your Zanpakuto once, as Byakuya mentioned how impressive and difficult it is to acquire, sort of implying that most Shinigami never achieve it. And, you have to keep in mind that Ichigo had Yoruichi's tools to help him. Twocents 21:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I've noticed alot of people saying 'This arc is great because we get to see the spirits of the zanpakutos that we might have never seen otherwise.' Those people seem to be forgetting the fact that these aren't necessarily the true forms of the spirits. Not only can we see that in the case of Zabimaru and Hyorinmaru, but Kisuke says in the latest episode that the Zanpakuto's true form resides within their Shinigami. The fact that Zabimaru and Hyorinmaru look different than how they did in earlier appearances leads me to believe that the forms the spirits have taken in this arc are just bodies that Muramasa has provided for them with his extraction powers. Ultimt evil 02:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Lol, dude Hitsuguya said it himslef thats their true forms. Its posiible for the zanpukto to have multiple forms. vesides I heard Tite himself designed or at least watched over the desgns for the spirits, so we may see them in the manga in thse forms if Tite ever needs to show the sprirts. I suspect Zanpukto spirts have a humanoid form and an animal form.Saimaroimaru 02:26, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I liked the storyline but didn't get why they turned against the Shinigami. "The era of the Shinigami is over." Oh, alright... but tell me again, why? Anywyas, I was hoping to see more fighting, especially the 3 oldest captain.. but then it hit me.. duh, they haven't done much so far, why would they start doing some sword fighting now? But I am curious to see how it's gonna play out. Deimonos 03:05, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

>.> You serious? It has been hinted that Muramasa did something to them or it has something to do with whatever spell he used to free them with, please use common sense.Saimaroimaru 05:10, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Curiously noticed that (in episode 231) all the shinigamis didn't fight their respective zampakuto's spirit. Only Komamura and the Kuchiki fought their owns (Rukia & Byakuya against respectively Sode no shirayuki & Senbonzakura). Noticed one more thing, Senbonzakura's voice is similar to Byakuya's. Maybe there's no relations, but my speculated theory is that this filler will be concentrated on Byakuya.Baronofash 07:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Saimahoimaru, you just said how, I was asking why... but then again, it doesn't matter why. What matters now is how this is gonna play out. Deimonos 13:22, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I understand that my name is hard tp spell, but spell it right, if you have it copy and paste, so be it. On topic then why ask why then when no one knows the answer, again ask you please use common sense.Saimaroimaru 13:54, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Not to mention, in episode 231, we could see Zabimaru in bankai mode shooting a blast (Hikōtsu Taihō) on the shinigami, but it seems that only the snake-kid has changed cause the baboon-girl still in its/her human form?!Baronofash 14:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

>.> Its transformed into its bankai state thats why you see it atatck the shinigami that way. the zanpukto spiritr have all the powers you see the zapnukto their assoicated with, afer all the powers derive from the spirits.Saimaroimaru 01:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Saimaroimaru if you're so keen on people spelling your name correctly, perhaps you could attempted to do the same thing throughout your post. Perhaps put it through MS Word first ;-) HOOOOOOOOO 06:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Exscuse me? The name I go by I made up myself, it doesn't exist, so watch your mouth. I made the word, its Saimaroimaru, don't like it then get over it.Saimaroimaru 18:10, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Saimaroimaru.. When did Hitsugaya say that these new forms of the zanpakuto spirits were the true forms? Because I remember hearing Kisuke say that the Zanpakuto's true form resides within their shinigami. I just watched the scene again to make sure and this is his exact line. "After all, a Zanpakuto's true form resides within their Shinigami." (ep 231) So that evidence coupled with the fact that some of the spirits have shown different forms to when they had been contacted while still within their shinigami, leads me to believe that these bodies are just provided by Muramasa's powers. It doesn't make a bit of difference whether Kubo supervised the artists and made contributions to the character designs. That just means theyre going to look how he wants them to. I think it's apparent that the character design is of much higher quality than usual filler characters. Ultimt evil 05:22, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually Saimaroimaru was right Hitsugaya does say that they are the spirits true forms on the hill in the first episode of the arc. And im not sure what part of the 2nd episode your watching but after rukia explains what happened Urahara says that the shingimai's zanpakuto have entered the world in their true form. The concept here is really simple we normally see them as swords and then spirits we have only seen three (zabimaru, zangetsu, and Hyorinmaru). The only one not conforming to what we previously saw is zabimaru as in the first episode we see both the humanoid and dragon form of hyorinmaru. This arc is supposed to open up alot about zanpakuto we dont know. Is it so far fetched that they may have other forms they are spirits being a sword more often then not pretty much suspends belief here they are more likely to have multiple forms. In the second episode we see both zabimaru and ashisogi jizo in bankai. I mean trying to contain them to one set idea really doesnt seem to matter at this point.Salubri 05:40, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's that complex actually. We saw that the spirit of Sode no Shirayuki used the sword Sode no Shirayuki when attacking Ichigo. Therefore I would suggest that this is what happens when a zanpakuto is materialised in the real world by Muramusa's magic. Because it has been given a humanish form, it i able to use itself as a weapon thus the use of bankai and shikai attacks. BollyW 08:18, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

It would help explain why Hihio Zabimaru showed up when the furry one was stood next to Muramasa. TomServo101 14:19, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry that is not an explanation. Even if the spirits in Shikai mode can take their sword when fighting, they can't have it in Bankai mode, as shown so far. Then the question remained though, until I've seen the title of the number 234...That would explains why only the snake changed its form in bankai.Baronofash 02:21, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

My explanation isn't really complex at all as its clear what is said regardless of whether you want to believe it and thats outside of anyone addressing the fact of whatever Muramusa is doing. It is called their true forms by both Toshiro and Urahara on two separate occasions. As though somewhat surprised the shinigami so far seem to recognize them. We have seen most of the zanpakuto spirits using their shikai forms to battle. That makes no sense that anything like that would have to do at all with Muramasa, im not sure it matters that they can use the shikai form and turn into their bankai forms, their spirits as seen they obviously have more then one form sealed, shikai, bankai, true form whatever it seriously has nothing to do with Muramasa besides him freeing them from the sealed form and manipulating them. I also am sure zabimaru will be explained in that particular episode when it comes. Salubri 02:53, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

It is quite speculative to say, at this point of the episodes seen until now, that Muramasa is manipulating these spirits. There is no proof of that kind of manipulation. As noted in the beginning of each episodes of this arc, these will give some hints on the way shinigamis are linked with their zampakuto, which born and die with its wielder. In japanese, when we talk about Reality, we must use its definition with care, because it has different meanings in Western and in Eastern countries, such as, in this case, the spirit's true form or the spirit which gained a real (tangible) form, (referenced to Asian mythologies).Baronofash 05:39, 12 August 2009 (UTC)