Forum:Kaname tosen

This thread is for discussing Kaname Tōsen. Any other threads about him that are created outside of this one will be merged into here. --Yyp 15:13, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Death
I am moving all conversation related to his death from other forums into here. The discussion below was moved from Replacement Captains. Tinni 15:40, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

I have this tiny nagging feeling that Kaname isn't dead; and I don't want him to be dead just yet anyway. If he died by Shuhei's blade in this recent chapter; it will truly be a pathetic death. I did find it odd from the beginning that his mask had a breaking line in the middle; lol I kind of foresaw him being stabbed or slashed in that opening.--Captain Brooks 13:08, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * If Tosen isn't dead after that injury then Bleach would become a joke. Besides which, after the poetry that was the last chapter, Tosen not being dead would be a travesty. Just like if Starrk or Ulquiorra came back to life. These characters had deaths that are only possible in fiction: beautiful, poetic deaths. Bringing them back/keeping them alive after that is just cheapens the story in my opinion. Tinni 13:25, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

I don't want to get into an argument with you really but; that IS your opinion (as you did state); It is a possibility that he is dead though. We'll just have to wait till the next chapter to confirm that he is dead.--Captain Brooks 14:23, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * I really don't know how to address what you just said. You make it sound as if I am twisting things in the chapter to suit my point of view. I am not. Therefore, I am not sure where the opinion part comes into it. From my perspective, I am merely stating facts as presented in the manga. I have no doubt that some people will hold out hope until it is proven beyond a doubt that Tosen is dead. I am fine with that. This kind of thing only annoys me when it leads to unnecessary edit wars. Tinni 14:51, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Tinni's guess about Kaname dying in the last chapter is probably correct. The Espada deaths followed a similar predictable pattern so it doesn't look good for Kaname. Though I wouldn't hold any kind of wound (even a head wound) in Bleach as proof of death by itself. We routinely see horrendous wounds get shrugged off in the most casual manner by these characters. Great Cthulhu 15:13, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * >.< I am not guessing! Also, have you ever seen anyone brush off a head wound? Also, Ichigo and his chest wound and Hiyori and her bifurcation have been brought up a few times. Well I will have you know that hearts are routinely removed from patients during open heart surgery without them instantly dying. As such, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Ichigo survived having his heart destroyed long enough for his instant regeneration to kick in. As for Hiyori, assuming that Gin made the cut just above her intestines - she can survived being cut in two. Indeed, many ordinary people in real life have. I don't remember the exact reason why the perforation of the bowls lead to instant death but it does. However provided that the intestines are missed during the bifurcation, death is avoidable but you do have to get the victim into medical as soon as possible. Which Shinji has. So... Tinni 15:40, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

-- Tinni, I already said I agree that your statement regarding Kaname's death is probably correct. I'm not going to split hairs with you about being 80% correct or 100% correct. Secondly you are reaaaaallllllyyyyyy stretching the medical analogies. Of course a normal person can survive a heart surgery under carefully controlled and professionally supervised conditions or whatever other analogy you want to use. But this has little to do with the way Bleach's superhumans & monsters react or don't react to ordinarily deadly wounds under battlefield conditions. For what its worth though I do agree with your basic premise that its unlikely Tosen will walk away from his head wound. Great Cthulhu 04:40, December 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes! In Bleach in hollow form you don't need a heart to survive! ^.^ So yeah, I don't even have to justify Ichigo surviving despite having his heart destroyed. ^.^ Anyway, ignore me. I am just annoyed that the admins have had to protect two page in order to stop edit wars related to Tosen. I don't like it when pages have to be protected because it goes against the philosophy of a wiki but it had to be done. In addition since this whole business started, I have been accused of reading fake chapters, jumping to conclusions and a hunderd other things. So I am a bit touchy about the whole Tosen death thing. I will be jumping for joy if 386 ends up being Tosen's last appearance and hope 387 just focuses on Shinji and Aizen with maybe a few people mentioning Tosen and that's all! Tinni 05:01, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

-- Believe me...I've noticed how irritated you have been by the whole situation! ;)

Hopefully we will get a chapter devoted to Shinji and Aizen. I hope Ichigo doesn't come blundering in to steal the spotlight! Great Cthulhu 05:18, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Purely by accident I was re-reading some of the earlier mangas when I discovered that Barragan had lost half of his head to Soifon's Bankai. He was pretty upset about it but didn't look like he was gonna keel over and die because of it. So that is one example of a head wound not killing a 'person' in Bleach. Great Cthulhu 06:55, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

The discussion below was moved from Official Shinigami Discussion. Tinni 15:40, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Tinni you seem to be under the impression that Kaname is dead; why is this? Sure he got a released kazeshini to the head but I'm sure we've seen stuff like this before (not to the head); but still just as gruel.--Captain Brooks 13:23, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * I am saying Tosen is dead because he is. It annoys me that this has already become another Harribel and the admins had to project the Gotei 13 page because people kept removing the (Deceased) against Tosen's name. He got a sword through the brain and then had it release in his head. They killed his brain. No one in the Bleach verse can survive those injuries. In addition, the last image of the chapter wasn't Hisagi impaling Tosen. We got another page where Tosen's is being engulfed by darkness as he fails to recognise the face of the friend who was the motivation behind all he did. In the last page we also got a brief panel showing Tosen closing his eyes and his head dropping. The chapter and particularly Tosen's death was poetic in its beauty. Leaving Tosen alive after that would just turn Bleach into a joke and destroy an otherwise emotionally rich chapter and for what? Cheap sensationalism to satisfy the bloodlust of readers who want to see Shinigami blood? No, Tosen is dead and accepting it is the first step towards truly appreciating this chapter. Tinni 13:41, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

I see and understand your reasoning; but it would be wiser if you wait until at least the next chapter to change his status to deceased. If Ichigo was in Kaname's place I highly doubt you would have changed his status to deceased (particularly because he is the main antagonist; but there have been anime when the main character has been killed off). Ichigo took a cero to his chest which left as gaping hole (im sure the cero destroyed his heart); yet he is still alive.--Captain Brooks 14:19, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * I will not entertain the denialism of fans when they are based on nothing but wishful thinking. This is the stand I took with Harribel and this is the stand I am taking with Tosen. Had Ichigo taken a cero to the head and didn't have Orihime standing within 100 meters of him, I would have changed his status to deceased as well. Likewise, had Tosen take Kazeshini to the chest I would not have changed his status to deceased already. However, the head wound combined with the last page makes it pretty clear that he's finished. No one is yet to proved solid reasoning as to why they think he is alive or why we shouldn't declare him dead. It's more "I have a feeling..." or "I don't think so because I don't want him to be dead" or "But Hiyori is still alive", well Hiyori didn't have her skull pierced with Shinso. Out there in the Bleach fandom at large people still believe Starrk is still kicking and might make a reappearance. They believe Ulquoirra might come back. Well I am not going to stop people from hoping but the wiki states the facts as presented and the facts as presented makes it pretty clear that Tosen is dead and I doubt I'll have to eat my words next chapter. More importantly, for me, it's a matter of consistency. I do not see why a Shinigami antagonist who utterly abandoned his shinigami powers and embraced hollows powers should be treated any differently then the espadas. Tinni 14:35, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

We'll just have to wait till the next chapter to confirm if he is dead. Lets just say he is dead until proven alive.--Captain Brooks 15:40, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Ya I think Kubos given up on the villians, I mean no offence, but Tosen went down quicker than the Espada. Tosen was supposed to be significantly more powerful than Grimmjow as we all saw, and now he's dead. That's Bad Guys: 10 dead. Good Guys:..... nothing.

Your opinion has merit. As invincible villains the Espada and Tosen have been sadly lacking. Oh...they got a few licks in...but no real damage to the Soul Society that can't be repaired with a couple days of bed rest. No wonder Aizen was POed by his flunkies' performance. Great Cthulhu 04:48, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

The Bestial
I'm going to guess that Tosen is dead now. Man, he was taken out rather easily, even compared to the weaker Espada. It looks like he had some cool abilities, but it seems to me like he hadn't bothered to practice much in that form, getting so overwhelmed by just being able to see that he missed obvious things. I also find it interesting that the upper-level Espada looked relatively human even in their Resurreccion and he was so remotely non-human in his. I had thought that the ability to look human corresponded to power, but I suppose it may be different for a Shinigami-Hollow hybrid compared to a Hollow-Shinigami hybrid (the latter being Arrancar). Twocents  (Talk)  23:46, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

I thought it really suited him. He turned into a cricket-like Hollow. Perfect. And if he did die, what a way to die. Kazeshini released inside his head. -- Yyp  (Talk)  23:54, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Yes he is! I am so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so happy! I never liked Tosen. Not from day one! How dare he call cuddly and cute Komamura ugly! As a character Tosen has been tapped out for sometime. Nothing to explore, nothing to show. Also he does seem to have totally abandoned his shinigami powers. So he was pretty much just a hollow at the point of death. I am mostly glad that neither Komamura nor Hisagi died. I was really dreading one of them dying. After last chapter I was like NO! Hisagi is finished! He didn't show the bankai I was expecting him to show but I am glad he was the one to kill Tosen. It was beautiful and poetic. I know a lot of people are bashing Kubo over this last chapter but I think it was one of the best chapter in ages! Only thing is that now I am a little worried that Kubo wants to kill of Aizen and Gin by the end of this arc and introduce new villians. I don't think I can imagine a Bleach without Aizen.... or Gin *sob* Gin! Don't die! Tinni 23:55, December 16, 2009 (UTC)

Same. For the last couple of chapters, I was thinking, "It's coming. Tite's going to off one of the Shinigami!" so I'm glad to see that Komamura and Shuhei have, at least for the time being, made it through things. And I thought it was a really lovely way to off him. Kind of pathetic death, given all the hype he's had, but I'm glad it wasn't drawn out. And plus, he was so, so deserving of it after we got to see Komamura's viewpoint on things - he really did try to be a good friend, and Tosen spat on that. I just hope Shuhei doesn't become all angsty now that he off'd his own former captain. And I'm really curious to see what Tite's going to focus on next - Ichigo's and Unohana's return? Yammy vs. Byakuya and Kenpachi? Shinji vs. Aizen? Gin (or Yamamoto or whoever) doing something? Wonderweiss and Kensei? There's so much going on, but at the same time, I'm glad that he's not dragging things out like he did with the Espada battles, because I'm not feeling like, "Ugh, let's get done with this and go focus back on -whatever-" Twocents   (Talk)  00:02, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

OH YEAH!!!!!!! Shuhei got him! :) I haven't read u guys' posts yet but I will. I just had to express myself. BOO YAH! 1 down 2 to go(tho I am hoping Gin lives, yet I have my doubts). Minato  (Talk)  00:06, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Wooh! It feels weird going around changing all the Shinigami list to "deceased" against Tosen's name. *sob* I dread the day I have to do that for a Shinigami character I actually like. Anyhoo, the best part of this chapter might be that it might finally, finally, finally get rid of some of the people who have been doing nothing but whining for the last oh... 100 chapters or so! Seriously, if you don't enjoy Bleach any more then stop reading! Or at least stop posting on forums! I get that people might be following out of habit but surely posting to forums require extra effort and energy that people shouldn't possess if they have truly began to dislike a series. I have said it before and I'll say it again, people are weird! Tinni 00:46, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

-- I'll have to say this was a satisfying chapter! I had to laughed when Tosen released his hollow form. It was more silly than intimidating! None the less I'm glad that his death had a sense of ironic style to it. Justice is served! I knew as soon as he said he could see it was gonna screw him somehow.

I was a bit disappointed by Komamura's showing this chapter. I know Bankai would be outclassed by a fully hollowfied Shinigami ex-Captain...but it would of been nice if Komakura's Bankai wasn't shut down with a single blast.

Speaking of Komamura...he really shined this chapter, not in power, but in personality. I've really started to like this character who at first I thought was a total waste of space. The Battle for Fake Karakura Town has really given him a chance to put his best paw forward. Great Cthulhu 02:58, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

??? Finally, the real killer wasn't the one expected. Hail Hisagi! Tousen started with an elegant style & mask, but his ressureccion was...huh? well... disturbing? disgraceful? but for me, surely disappointing. By the way, Komamura ended as the good guy and Tousen as the squished fly!?

I can only hope that Tosen's words and deeds in the last two chapters will settle all doubt about how much of a twisted hypocrite he was and that people will finally stop assuming that Aizen has a righteous goal just because Tosen sided with him. Tinni 08:23, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Yes Tosen is finally shown for what he is besides the second most disliked character after Aizen (for me personally). He is a traitor and hypocrite. Going around spouting his philosophy about fear and path of least bloodshed and justice. What does he know of any of it. He swore to uphold the path of his friend but did the exact opposite of what she would have wanted, using her to to support it. He knew nothing of what she stood for he has been so warped and twisted with hatred for what one person did he would take it out on the world. Turn against friends and allies to side with a megalomanic with dreams of godhood like Aizen. He was power hungry for no reason and in the end he was truly blind, ironically it had nothing to do with his ability to actually see. Its really sad what Rage and hatred can do to people. Komamura i feel for you going out of your way to befriend ad man such as that, he wasnt worthy of your friendship. Hisagi really shined his involvement and what he did was totally unexpected, good job being the first (hopefully not last-Kira) lieutenant to get revenge against a superior he trusted as a partner and teacher who betrayed everything for absolutely nothing. Also I dont pay attention to most forums but if there are people that think that Aizen has some righteous goal they are deluded. He basically sums out how he feels in his little speech to Shinji. Regardless of how true in real life it is the ending of it pretty much sums up what i previously said about him. Salubri (Talk)  09:06, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't necessarily put Gin in the same boat as Tosen. I mean, we don't even know what's motivating Gin at the moment and he did seem to genuinely care about Kira and Kubo keeps going back to the bond between Gin and Rangiku in the databooks (both bleach book of Souls and Bleach bootleg). Which is different from Tosen, who didn't seem to give a damn about Hisagi during the entirety of Fake Karakura Town. In fact, he was downright cruel to both Hisagi and Komamura in making it clear just how little he valued the love and friendship those two offered him. Heck, even Aizen betrayed a reaction when he sensed Hinamori arrive on the battlefield. But not Tosen. I mean sure Aizen was surprised to find her still alive but at least he reacted! Tosen... >.> what a jerk! But I am biased, having never liked Tosen and adoring Gin. So... ^.^ Tinni 11:35, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * PS. O yeah, the Kubo bashing is on at full swing. It's kind of amusing, kind of sad and while I can understand their disappointment, I do not understand why they are still reading Bleach if they don't enjoy it any more. But whatever, as long as they don't come here and start editing articles to suit their point of view (Esapda great -> Soul Society Evil -> Shinigami are jerks -> Kubo is a bad mangakana) I don't care. Tinni 11:35, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Well Tinni i understand your love affair with Gin but his actions and personality from the cruel things he does and says regardless of his association would lead many to believe that the man clearly is a sociopath even from when he was a child, he likes people to suffer. Smiling at everything least we not forget what he did to the former 3rd seat of the 5th division, momo, Rukia, Hiyori im sure the list it longer. He obviously likes to manipulate and cruelly play with people. Regardless of him helping or somewhat caring for Rangiku he also has betrayed her, she clearly understands that she truly doesn't know him after all (considering the momo event). There maybe a little to much reading into their relationship what little it is. We all know what side he is on and considering his actions and who he is following there is no justifiable reason for what he has done either. Tosen maybe the far worse because of his hypocrisy but Gin has done through manipulation and for the sheer joy of it is not any better. Prepare to see the confrontation most likely between Hitsugaya and Rangiku (maybe kira). We know that he is gonna fall eventually its probably better to prepare for that reality, though im sure he wont come off like Tosen did. Salubri (Talk)  16:54, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Well I think that Gin is that type of character that just do anything that seems interesting. Not because of some good or evil intentions or something. I can see him giving up after Aizen defeat. But well it's just my opiniong anyway Ergro 20:35, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

That doesn't make Gin any less evil. He is not an idiot. Gin knows very well the consequences of his actions and who he is supporting. Whatever Gin's reasoning he has done enough to merit execution. Great Cthulhu 20:54, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

This is to Tinni. I agree. Everybody is changing their views about Kubo. Still, I think many of the Kubo bashers complain about y they didn't like the chapter, BECAUSE they really like Bleach. If u see something u like and it doesn't go the way u want it to, what is u'or initial reaction. U like Gin, Rangiku, and Kira, so I'll use them. What if u find out that Gin was only pretending to like them. Playing their emotions for his own kicks and giggles. Like when he offered to help Rukia. He offered to save her life and her friends lives and while she didn't really believe him, it was enough for her to let alittle hope back into her heart. And he turned right around and laughed at her saying his words were nothing but lies. What if he tells Rangiku he never really cared for her and tries to kill her. U have to admit that when she got badly injured by Allon he it never showed him reacting. After seeing that I thought he would atleast say something, but he didn't. If this was to turn out like this(which I hope it doesn't, if for no other reason for u'or sake)the first thing u would do is come here and say "Screw Kubo. He totally messed it up this chapter and etc. etc. So the Kubo bashers r just blowing off some steam. But they still like Bleach, or atleast most of them do, elsewise they wouldn't come here. Minato  (Talk)  20:57, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually I would think that was perfectly in keeping with Gin's character. He would go up considerably in the cruelty scale and go down in the "has a heart" scale but I wouldn't bash Kubo over it. I am not delusional. I know there is a big chance that Gin is going to come out of this a total heartless sociopath. Alternatively, he's going to be shown to have a something resembling a heart, at least where it comes to Rangiku and Kira. Gin having some feelings for Rangiku and Kira would make him a more complex character. Him being a straight forward sociopath would make him somewhat of a less interesting character but even if Kubo goes down that road, I am not going to call Kubo the worst Managakana in terms of story telling ability. I mean seriously, if he was that, Bleach wouldn't have been going for eight years and looking like it could go for years more. Seriously though, the people I was referring to bash Kubo on a daily basis and have been doing so ever since the Espada started dropping. It's not a this chapter thing, it's been going on for sometime. THAT'S my problem. I mean, if ever I feel that Bleach chapters are dragging and I am losing interest I would just stop reading. I wouldn't just stick around and bitch and whine every single week! I mean, if they are still reading, how horrible could Kubo really be and if they are reading and not enjoying but reading anyway and taking the time to bitch and whine on forums, well then what that's just sad and pathetic. Tinni 01:56, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering if anyone else thinks that Tosens Bestial or Resurreccion has something to do with his power level as a Shinigami Captain. Maybe the reason he was so big and nonhuman looking was because if he was a hollow from the get go he would have only been an Adjuchas class Menos and someone like Ichigo or Aizen who has more spirit power will become a Vasto Lorde class Menos or have the more human looking form like Ichigo's second Hollow transformation. Unus7484 17:31, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Resurreccion
this guy can transform dude has a resurreccion dude and its like a supped up version of his bankai by the looks of it so far omg i cant wait till next week hell yeah i see death approaching somebody

is a Ressurecion shinigami even possible? or is Kubo just running out of ideas?--Ice Kitsune 00:56, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

I think its a brilliant idea; If Shinji and Co are incomplete vizards with just a mask; why shouldn't Sosuke and CO have a ressureccion form?!--Captain Brooks 14:36, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

There's been a huge number of complaints about how wimpy the bad guys are, and I agree. The only way a weaker captain like Tosen can beat a vizard is through a power-up. Tosen is currently facing a normal weaker captain, but no doubt he'll find himself fighting the vizards (assuming he actually wins this fight). PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) 23:28, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Okay so Ive been thinking about Tosen's Resurreccion and wanted to get some opinions on my theory. Now there have been 4 distinct groups or species of spiritual beings, those being the Shinigami, Vizard, Arrancar, and Hollows. The Shinigami and Hollows are the pure species on opposite sides, the Vizards and Arrancars are those from either species who have gained powers of the other side,(we all know this) but they still favor or resemble their former species. What if they are not true hybrids but only partial, and now with Tosen we see a true hybrid with the full power of both sides, one who can fully bring out his inner Hollow form (Resurreccion) and use the full power of the Shinigami (Bankai). Here is a little diagram of what I am talking about. Shinigami>Vizard>Hybrid(Tosen)<Arrancar<Hollow. Let me know what you think.Unus7484 22:03, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

i'd have to agree to that. i'v been thinking about it myself but i couldn't find a way that made since,as this does.Soul reaper magnum 00:51, December 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree completely with what Unus has diagrammed. Minato  (Talk)  00:54, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

I've been wondering that same thing for a while now, and thanks to Unus bringing the idea up again, I agree with him. My question now is whether the Hogyoku is further on it's way to awakening, or whether Aizen knows more of the Hogyoku to cause this transformation of a pure Shinigami/Hollow hybrid. Thinking about the current Vizard and how they were made, Urahara said that he only succeeded in making a "stable Shinigami/Hollow hybrid," if I remember right. Now; Urahara only said "stable" hybrid, not "pure" or "complete" hybrid. Aizen might very well have found a way to making that pure hybrid, and Tosen might be nothing more than a guinea pig, if you think about it. Nekura Wabizumai

So basically, somehow Tosen was transformed into a Vizard than was fused together with an Arrancar?月光ヒレ 02:51, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

No 月光ヒレ thats not what I'm saying. I'm saying he is a true hybrid and that he can call out his inner hollow form. Like we saw with Mashiro and Kensei with their bodies changed along with mask, only he(Tosen) is in control and could use his full power of Shikai and Bankai while in that form, not being a mindless creature that doesnt us their Zanpakutō. Unus7484 03:36, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

Similar to how Ichigo transformed into hallow with the horns, cept he didnt have full control of it, however he was still in bankai mode. it even sounded like the ressurection form mirrored his bankai to because they both are in reletion to crickets. as far as names go. Shillagan 05:14, December 13, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Shillagan, that Tosen's Ress. is very similar to Ichigo's latest and greatest transformation, and it is not only possible but highly likely that all the Vizard have the ability to have a ress., but he has done all of his honing in Hueco so his powers are very likely to be much different from the vizards and Ichigo that all did there training in the human world, the vizard and Ichigo held on to their shinigami selves through the training process whereas it appears Tosen decided to become more hollow, furthermore it seems evident that his skill with his full release is very poor which means he's done little training with it, and has yet to master it much like Ichigo, and we all know that Ichigo is more powerful that Tosen and therefore his crazy release might just be his ress. but he's unable to control it because of it's sheer strength, or it is just possible that Ichigo's latest release was just a product of being in Hueco.--Fuhrer Reaper 17:33, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Personally I Think The Idea That Tousen Using A Resurreccion Is Almost Like A Third Release. If You Will, To Me That Would Be Like A Shinigami Having 2 Zanpakutō both sword and spirits , 2 DifferentShikai , And 2 different Bankai Then Fusing Both Zanpakutō Together ( Fusion Release ) "Hypothetical". Thats Just My Thoughts And Reasoning. What Iam Consfused About The Difference Between A Vizard Like Ichigo And A Pure Shinigami / Hollow Hyrid Like Tousen and possibly Gin and Aizen?SocietyX420 04:53, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

-- I think it has to do with when Vizards and shinigami/hollow hybrids were created. You have to remember that Aizen's hollowifcation research cover over a hundred years of experimentation. The Vizards like Shinji were created in the very beginning when the process was uncertain and unrefined. Without Urahara's intervention they likely would of remained unstable and mad because Aizen's process was imcomplete and unfinished. The result is a powerful Vizard but still not at the power level that Aizen's process could eventually produce. Shinigami/Hollow hybrids like Tosen would of benefited from over a hundred years of research and ultimate refinement of Aizen's process. They would be perfectly stable and incredibly powerful in comparison to the original Vizards. Thats why Vizards have just masks but Hybrids have masks and Resurreccions (and perhaps other abilities).

Ichigo is unique. He wasn't created by Aizen's hollowification process. Instead it was Urahara's parallel research and a different method which created Ichigos abilities. Urahara's process might even be superior to Aizen's process. Great Cthulhu 19:28, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Hollow?
Is Kaname a hollow because how covered up part of his face, is like someone about to put on a hollow mask.Flaminghorse November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Maybe or maybe he's about to take of his glasses and go all Cyclops on us! Seriously though, I have been thinking about it and the reason people started abandoning the idea that Aizen, Gin and Tosen might be vizards is because Aizen looked down upon Shinji and co and called them "wanna-be arrancars". It gave a strong impression that Aizen thought the vizard thing wasn't worth it. Now here is the thing, a number of occasions Arrancar have said "Aizen-sama has given me such and such power" and stuff like that. So what if Tosen isn't about to pull on a mask and reveal himself to be a vizard at all? What if he is about to demonstrate a totally new power. Hollow based sure but not involving a mask, Vizard being a term that means shinigami who fight under a mask. We have precedence for this. We have Chad's arms. Chad isn't a hollow, Chad isn't a vizard but Chad's power are hollow based. I mean, we assumed, Barragan's respira and Starrk's cero wolves were powers they already had as hollows. But what if they are not? What if, Aizen literally gave it to them. Gave all the espada their special powers? Rudobōn certainly said that Aizen gave him "the power of a creator", referring to his Árbol ability. Now that I think about it, it's a pretty strange thing to say if all Aizen did was take a hollow who already possessed that power and just turn him into an arrancar. What if Aizen literally gave him that power while turning him into an arrancar? That would mean that Tosen's splendid new power might be an actual special ability like respira or something like that. Tinni 07:47, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

that's a really good idea about the hollow powers. and i was thinking that aizen called them wannabe arrancars because they are imperfect in some way(at least to aizen) and that what kaname is about to do is an upgraded version or form of the vizard mask. like there's more to it or something.Soul reaper magnum 08:45, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

does someone remember tosen's Garganta ability??

PD: maybe tousen took off his "eyeglasses" and appear to have eyes like hollow ichigo's

tsk... i prefer a mask... but maybe the perfect fusion hollow & shinigami is something like the inner hollow...

Hexanort 08:58, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

I have to say.. Tinni you seem to be the most sensible (no offense to anyone else) editor on bleach.wikia. Soul reaper magnum does make a good point though; it is possible that the 3 ex captains have an upgraded hollow mask; maybe that can even go into a hollow form (like what Ichigo did involuntarily ..vs Ulquiorra.) I can't wait to see how the story line develops! --Captain Brooks 09:17, November 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks ^.^ Tinni 13:05, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

that was another idea i was thinking about myself. and if that is what he's about to do you got to wonder what there masks/hollow forms are going to look like.Soul reaper magnum 15:57, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

Well it should make them alot stronger than the vizards (assuming their gap in power is as large or larger than the experimental arrancar compared to the espada.) I can't wait till next week either.--Captain Brooks 16:11, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

The recent evidence of this is Tosen talking about "true form" AND raising his hand to his face --- A standard Vizard stance when producing a mask.

Im leaning towards the vizard theory partly because of the hand-in-front-of-face stance but also because Tosen said it was something Aizen gave him. This made me immediately think of the hogyoku and its ability to turn ppl into vizards, and as far as I know thats the only power Aizen can "give" to a human. Smokehaze 00:26, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking that the fact that Kaname can use garganta is some proof that he has hollow powers. What do you all think? --Captain Brooks 00:36, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

probably, garganta is defiantly something a normal soul reaper couldn't do.Soul reaper magnum 15:28, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Enough with the Garganta thing! Mayuri can do it and so can Urahara! just because they can use Gaganta doesn't make them a cool new form of Hollow. When it all plays out, it is probably just an upgraded form of the Hollow Mask, with an extended time frame. [Captain of squad 0]

0; do you remember Kaname being a genious who worked in the Research and Development branch of Seretei? .. If not then I see no other way for him to be able to use Garganta. It is unknown how Kisuke was able to use Garganta; however it is revealed that Mayuri learned to use it by examining Szayel's work.--Captain Brooks 20:03, November 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure Urahara's creation and control over a Garganta is granted as an ability of his Zanpakutō. I thinkhe talks about it when he sends Ichigo into the Hueco Mundo, but I don't recall much. Laguna 00:36, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

To add another detail about garganta both urahara and mayuri used somesort of gateway with beams and what not. Meanwhile Aizen and Kaname have both shown they are able to open a Garganta with the aid of a structured portal as hollow can. does this mean they were able to gain the ability through holowfication I dont know but it is another way to look at it. which as someone pointed out before may be why he said wanna be arrancar. The vizards only know what Urahara knows about hollowfication and im not saying Urahara doesn't know much but because Aizen has spent more time in the field and actually doing the experiments he may be able to accomplish more with the shinigami hollow hybrid. just my thoughts on the matter, but we will know soon :P Shillagan 03:35, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Laguna, but i watched the episode and checked the manga, and Urahara said he figured it out from his research into the Hogyokou. But does anyone remember how Aizen changed the original vizard into what they are? He didnt use the Hogyokou, so maybe he thinks that the original process was imperfect and the new and improved version used the Hogyokou to turn himself and his buddies into a different kind of Vizard...? Let me know what you guys think. User:Captain of squad 0

Your idea sounds plausible Cap'n 0 (hogyokou being more efficient than his method used on the vizard).--Captain Brooks 00:45, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

Looking at Tousen's mask from manga spoilers... It's a hybrid assdick. He's always been one, now he looks like one too. --(QQ)∞wertyasdf 09:00, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

He's got a Ass crack for a mask... Whuuurgh!?!? - Silenty

LOL; my guess is that the line in the middle is so that he can breathe.. I find it odd though that even though he is blind, he doesn't have eye holes.--Captain Brooks 14:35, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

And then you have his Resurrecion. Anyone find it silly he ranted so hard his mask broke? Kaihedgie 20:23, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

It is definitely interesting that he has a resurrection, it makes you wonder then if that is what happened with ichigo if that is his "resurrection". I like how the mask broke so he could talk, he looks like carnage with the teeth and his dreads going all over. But does anyone find Kaname hypocritical more so now, he has always said he takes the path with the least blood shed, and that doesn't seem to be just a line, because he genuinely hated grimjaw and kenpachi, yet now he is on path of destruction killing whoever gets in his way. I just find it kinda calling the kettle black. Apart from that I can't wait for next week to see his second form. Shillagan 23:36, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

i thought it was strange to. because i thought a hollow mask was an equivalent of an arrancars resurrection for a soul reaper.Soul reaper magnum 00:50, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

I find it fair Soul reaper magnum.. Arrancar have two forms (arrancar form and ressureccion); so complete vizards should have two forms (hollow mask form and resurrecion bankai form)--Captain Brooks 14:38, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if this means Arrancar can be improved to the point they can manifest shikai and bankai? Great Cthulhu 16:27, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering shouldnt Tosen's Ressurecction be listed under his hollowfication instead of his Zanpakutou abilities. I mean I thought it was in direct connection to hollow form. Correct if I'm wrong. Tealang99 16:17, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

The fans who maintain this site are of the opinion that releasing a Ressurecction is a Zanpakuto ability...in which they are right since the form is sealed away inside of the weapon for arrancar. Though it remains to be seen if a hollowified shinigami character needs to be masked in order to release his Resurecction. Great Cthulhu 16:29, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Exactly the term ressureccion translates to a sword release, hence why it is listed under zanpakuto for the arrancar. It has nothing to do with the hollowfication which is used as a term when one dons their hollow mask. Two separate techniques though i understand the confusion seeing as they are from the same power source. To answer someone elses question i doubt an arrancar would be capable of shikai or bankai for two reasons. One if no one has noticed the arrancar or the opposite of say the vizards but in the process of becoming what they are they gain shinigami like abilities but not really, besides becoming more humanoid and gaining a pseudo zanpakuto to seal their power in they are largely more hollow then anything nothing so much that would really connect them with shinigami. Two shikai and bankai require a zanpakuto spirit as already confirmed they do not possess a real zanpakuto it is just their true hollow power sealed away in the shape of a sword. Ive thought about this some and considering what we know it seems Hollow-Shinigmai hybrids are less powerful then Shingami-hollow hybrids in the amount of power they potentially have access to. Arrancar have considerable and unique powers but they seem to stop at a point where as as we have seen at least in one case there is more versatility on the other side.Salubri (Talk)  17:18, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

-- This is a credible theory. Makes sense.

My own theory on it is that Aizen is holding out on his arrancar servants. Arrancar of the Espada level were plenty powerful without giving them the full shinigamification treatment. They would make fine warriors for Aizen's war against the Soul Society without giving them the true power that is meant for Aizen and a select few. So Aizen deliberately retarded their spiritual evolution because it served his purpose. That way the Espada would never be a theat to his rule. If Aizen DID give the arrancar the full treatment then we might start seeing Shikai, Bankai, and sword spirits.

LOL...I doubt it will be confirmed either way. Its just interesting speculation. Great Cthulhu 19:31, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Garganta?
alright so reading the thread about Kanames and his new power whatever it may be got me thinking about the Garganta, so mainly hollows can use this ability with the exceptions being the Kaname, Kisuke, Mayuri and most likely gin and aizen. now mayuris and kisukes ability to use it can most likely be attributed to there scientific studies and kisukes Zanpakuto ability,and we can guess kaneme,gin and aizen learnt how to do it from the hollows ,so my question is how did they get to Hueco Mundo in the first place?im talking about that first time(we see them) in Hueco Mundo  taking over the place,as far as i know you can only get there by using a Garganta Digital Reaper 20:58, December 2, 2009 (UTC)Digital Reaper

good question. aizen probably learned how from his experiments on hollows.Soul reaper magnum 00:52, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion. Urahara achieves it via a kido spell, Mayuri achieved it via scientific analysis, and Kaname, Gin and Aizen achieved it who knows how but, it really is a wonder as to how they got there but it stands to reason that there is a possible way to cross dimensions that we may not be fully aware of as alot of things in bleach that surround Aizen. Salubri 01:00, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

hmmm...lol i just guessed aizen must of been a hollow to begin with or maybe he has a vaste lorde boss:PDigital Reaper 08:01, December 3, 2009 (UTC)Digital Reaper

kaname's shikai
i noticed that his first shikai ability has Suzumushi in the name like most others but his second had benihiko. so i was thinking that if it is true that the sword is his friends and the ring is his zanpakuto(not saying it is and not saying it isn't) than maybe "cry Suzumushi" is his shikai and "Smash His Limbs Benihikō" is the swords(his friends ability) shikai. what do you think?Soul reaper magnum 18:06, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Its probably something like Rukia's dances, just something he learned over time. Its kind of like Benihime using that blast and the blood shield. KamikazeNewf 23:01, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

guess so, i just thought it was a possibility,and that his bankai uses this ring and not the sword. i know that there are other captians that keep there sword in bankai but it is still used in some way.and i forgot to mention that if there's any thing else about tosen that anyone wants to talk about you can do it here.Soul reaper magnum 05:20, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

speaking of this, i was thinking if tosen purposely did not use his bankai's other abilities (supposedly) during his fight with zaraki and let himself lose. or, maybe it's really just that zaraki is more powerful than tosen. i just think there's more to tosen's fighting ability since he's one of the main villains. --WinterFox 07:44, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

I am firm believer that Tosen was holding back during that battle. I feel that he healed to quickly from that blow from Kenpachi as well as his current cofidence level during the FKT arc. There have not been one person he backed down from or one he beleives that he cannot kill. I mean he attacked Shinji with no question at all. Knowing he was a Vizard and that he was a Captain before he became one. I think Tosen is holding back and I think that some of the strenghts that he is not showing will be shown in the fight between him and Komomura (excuse the spelling) and Shuhei.Tealang99 16:24, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

The reasoning you gave is flawed you cant say he was holding back and then say he doesn't back down. He obviously dosen't back down but theres nothing more to that. If you hold back against Kenpachi you arent gonna win, your gonna get killed thats a fact. He used shikai and bankai and lost the fact that he got healed really quick is no different from Ichigo getting healed really quick multiple times without Orihime or kenpachi getting healed really quick as well so thats not a good reference. Also he took on shinji who was a captain but he was a incapacitated captain and Aizen, gin and tosen didn't even know what a vizard was let alone to shinji it was the beginning stages of hollowfication not what they currently are. That was also anime only fight to flesh out the story in anime it never took place in manga. If there was anyone who knows what tosen is capable of its hisagi and komamura, doubtful they would be surprised. Even though i agree he has more skill he has yet to use holding back wouldnt be the term id use. As for his shikai one is defensive and the other offensive there is no proof of anything otherwise. as for his bankai its pretty straight forward what the ability is. He obviously is weaker then kenpachi which really isnt a surprise but out of Aizen and gin and himself he is obviously the weaker. We can speculate forever but he lost with bankai to kenpachi and knowing kenpachi would that be a smart tactic, no. Salubri 17:33, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

I said he held back because of the fact that he lost to Kenpachi. I dont think he used he full capability in beating him. Whether he lost because of the fact the that he underestimated Kenpachi or not. he still did not use all of his power. Now whether the lost was valid or not we dont know. I just stated my opinion on the the basis that healed very quickly from the wound he received. Though we dont know if he received aid or not, it was still a quick recovery. We know he used bankai but as we can see in the current battles bankai doenst matter if you have a skill that can counter it.(Barragan vs Soifon) Kenpachi figuered out what it took to counter his bankai. Thats why he lost. yet I still beleive that is not the full extent of his abilities. No when it comes to Tosen's confidence I understand that he did not know his ablities during the TBP arc but that is not what I was referring to. I was talking about the altercation between them during the FKT arc. He stood up to Shinji with the attidude that he could kill him and he tried to do so. So far we have yet to see any character cause Tosen to back down or not fight face up. His confidencs leads to beleive that he is stronger then what we have seen. I beleive that we will see some of his true strength in his fight with Shuhei and Komomura( excuse the spelling).Tealang99 18:26, November 18, 2009 (UTC)

i agree with Tealang99 tousen seems to confident to be that weak and i hope Shuhei goes Bankai on him that would be amazingKensei24 02:27, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

Confidence doesn't actually make you invincible or great it just makes him sure of a course of action, after all he has his philosophy he supposedly follows. Confidence can easily be confused with arrogance. It's not backing down that got Tosen beat even knowing Kenpachi's reputation. I dont discount that he wont back down nor do i discount that he believes in his ability. does that mean he is all powerful, no. Also the point that he was quickly healed means nothing as other characters have had similar healing and we dont know the extent of his being healed some characters get patched up and seem ok. He did no fighting between that fight and leaving to Hueco Mundo he could have been still injured but patched up for all we know the major wounds were to his torso which was covered in the later parts of the event. He wanted to finally rid soul society of Kenpachi as he goes against everything he believes, so I don't think there is any question of him holding back in that situation. In the next fight maybe he'll show more swordmanship, use some kido or showcase another possible shikai technique, if that whats considered holding back, but as far as holding back beyond that it doesn't seem likely based on confidence alone. Salubri 02:59, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

I think that kaname's abilities are exactly what we have seen up to this point. When it comes down to his fight with Zaraki, the fact that he lost is only because Zaraki is that good. In fact, that could be the underlying reason for Kaname joining with aizen, maybe he just wanted to gain more power. possibly in the form of a hollow mask.....? Captain of squad 0

Kaname wasn't holding back per se. He was simply teaching Zaraki a lesson and showing him why he disliked his ways. If it was any other opponent, Kaname would have just cut his head off right after using his Bankai. In TBTP arc, he always went for quick decisive blows against his opponents after using his Bankai, had he done this with Kenpachi he would have won. But by being the stereotypical bad guy, he let Zaraki figure out how to counter the Bankai. Maybe he wasn't holding back, but he also wasn't fighting to the best of his abilities, at the time that is Grimmjow2 15:36, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

For this one Tite Kubo was running of ideas or what? Kaname's resureccion looks really similar to Barragan's Respira...Ace of Spade 15:45, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Is Tosen overconfident?
Battling an older vizard is difficult by itself, but taking on Komamura is a really bad idea. Captain K knows how Tosen's bankai works. He seems like he's not acting like himself. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) 22:18, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I would say yes, he would have to be overconfident or extremely stupid. I dont think he is stupid but it is becoming real obvious his loyalty to aizen is as blind as he is and its gonna end up being his down fall to bad he doesn't realize he is being just as manipulated as those he is against. But thats aizen's skill.Salubri 00:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Well yeah, he does have blind loyalty towards Aizen, which might fuel his recklessness. But since he's one of the three major villains, he probably has something up his sleeve to justify his confidence. And he also knows how Komamura's Bankai works too, by the way. LionsLight 03:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I think that Tosen has earned his respect for a reason.I dont think that he is just some weak captain serving Aizen blindly. Excuse the Pun! I dont think Tosen would attack shinji with out thinking he would get the hit. I mean he was fast enough to scratch Shinji after the blocked attack. That must mean something. And still went for another attack. So he was prepared to fight Shinji and he sounds like he is even prepared to fight Fox Face. So I wouldnt under estimate Tosen. You may think he is over confident but I think he is going to show why that is.Tealang99 19:23, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I dont think so, he is way overconfident in his own abilities that much is shown when he thinks he could take zaraki to no affect. As far as the fact that he thinks he can take a vizard (something he has never fought nor has, not even going into how shinji was a captain of great skill way before tosen even made the grade) He is obvious over confident in his ability, we seem to forget this isn't some low level fighters he tends to take on. Also its shown on more then one occassion that he does blindly follow aizen, no pun intended. He acts like his servant, where as gin acts more like an equal or friend. Progressively if you look at his history he was not always possessed of the current personality and theres a notable change upon his meeting aizen. Aizen's zanpakuto doesnt effect him but aizen still is a master of manipulation and that counts toward him manipulating tosen by using his own philosophy to control him. After all he is just misguided at the least and not a soicapath like gin.Salubri 19:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I dont think we can use the Rank thing as proof. What I mean by that is Aizen and even Tosen (unsure about GIN) were captain level at the same time the Vizards were before the tranformation. The didnt claim their positions until later but the still were at captains level already. For how long we dont really know but we can honestly same that Tosen and Aizen should have been captains at the same time Shinji was one. Thats why I think he is stronger than he looks. I know he took that lost to Kenpachi but Kenpachi is in a league of his own. I mean he doesnt even fight captains with out them using their Bankai. And this is with out him even knowing his own sword name. We cant keep disregarding Tosen for losing that battle. I mean for what its worth you have to respect him more for even taking that battle.Tealang99 19:31, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

All im saying is there is way to much overconfidence in both aizen and tosens abilities especially considering aizen never fought someone on equal footing. Its too easy to say kenpachi is in a league of his own. to be honest to be a captain in general speaks alot of someones abilities. Tosen gets respect for that but he far underestimates his opponents be it kenpachi or shinji and we are bound to see another defeat on his side because of it. Thats the whole overconfidence thing, i really dont get how its easy to talk up the power or skill of aizen and his guys but the shinigami dont get any respect at all.Salubri 19:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I completely understand why you are saying Tosen is overconfident. But what I am saying is that I think he may have a reason to be. We have seen what happens to those who are over confident is SS. They all meet their defeat. I think that with Tosen before this happens He will display a power that makes him beleive he is stonger than the others he is facing. I am just saying that he may have a reason to be overconfident. I think that he is stronger than we and the Gotei 13 may know. He will surprise us all and I cant wait to see it. Tealang99 16:31, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

I guess the recent manga chapter answers a lot of your "Tousen's confidence" questions. I was so hoping something like this would happen and cant wait till the next chapter! KamikazeNewf 22:10, November 26, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you guys. I just read the recent chapter and went all "I knew it!". haha. They were too overconfident for 3 guys who were totally outnumbered and had all their arrancars bashed to oblivion. Damn.. too bad we'll need to wait for a whole week to see what's gonna happen. And about Captain Brook's comment.. the quality here is having an open mind. Accepting other people's opinions and not just going "what I say is right and you're wrong..". That's the behavior of a spoiled brat and not someone who's supposed to be handling something worth a damn.. this comment is generic and not referred to anyone in particular.. Deimonos 19:58, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

I find it odd that you mentioned me in your comment Deimonos; I do realize what these forums are about, but thanks for the info anyway (no sarcasm intended.--Captain Brooks 22:09, November 27, 2009 (UTC))

How long have I been saying this. I told you that Tosen was not as weak we beleived and that he did not just battle out of blind obidience to Aizen. I said he believed he was stronger than everyone he faced and here is why. I told you he was over confident for a reason now I cannot wait to see his true strengthsTealang99 15:54, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Its going to be cool to not only see Tosen, but Gin and Aizen too. Im sure a lot of people saw this coming because of Aizen's long speech back in SS about breaking the boundries of Shinigami's powers. I just wonder how much stronger they have become and how badass their masks are going to look. KamikazeNewf 17:11, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

HAHA yes it will be cool; It would be cool if their masks somehow had espada level abilities like cero,gran ray cero, bala, negacion, hierro, sonido etc.--Captain Brooks 17:52, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

I kind of get the feeling we are going to see a mask with no eyes, one that looks like a fox, and one that would probably make me wet myself out of sheer horror.--Moe1216 19:39, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

Actually I tend to lean on Gin not having mask... Tosen has allways seemed more underling to Aizen, someone who blindly (old pun, I know) obeys Aizen and wouldn't say anything against if Aizen ordered that "Tousen, I will test Hogyoku on you". Gin in the other hand has wits to answer "No way, man. I'm not gonna risk myself for you. But you can test it on Tousen and I will grin while I see him suffer under it's effects". I admit that I'm probably wrong on this one, though, but I would still like it if Gin didn't have mask. --Akeki 19:50, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

I have to say; if Gin and Sosuke had a mask; it would be the worst case scenario for the shinigami/ vizards. I do think that Kaname was tested first though lol.--Captain Brooks 20:06, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Im sure they all have masks, the whole point was to break boundaries and suprass they're powers as Shinigami's. Hopefully Aizen is really strong, I mean in his power chart wasnt he as strong as Yamamoto? Now breaking the boundaries Aizen has become one seriously strong guy of awesomeness. KamikazeNewf 23:09, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Where is this character power chart everyone keeps refering to? Hollowmajinbuu1 06:15, December 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * See below, Tosen's power chart. Tinni 07:40, December 1, 2009 (UTC)



For the benefit of Hollowmajinbuu1, and any others who may not be familiar with it, top stat is attack, top right defence, bottom right agility, bottom kido, bottom left intelligence, top left physical power (think it's that way round). All the most recent captains have them on their pages. TomServo101 10:39, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Like it was stated above; Sosuke should be stronger than Genryusai if he has a hollow mask. What I don't understand is; why did Kaname join Sosuke; if he is "following the path of justice."--Captain Brooks 18:25, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

I think that kaname's abilities are exactly what we have seen up to this point. When it comes down to his fight with Zaraki, the fact that he lost is only because Zaraki is that good. In fact, that could be the underlying reason for Kaname joining with aizen, maybe he just wanted to gain more power. possibly in the form of a hollow mask.....? Captain of squad 0

-- Because Kaname is a utopianist of the worst sort. He can't abide the injustice in the world so he has decided that he needs to break it and start over again. Doesn't matter how many bloody bodies and broken communities he needs to step over to get to his end goal...it will all be worth it when he can finally enact his idea of 'justice'.

Kaname never had the power to do this himself...he needed Aizen. And he has convinced himself that what Aizen wants will be congruent with Kaname's utopian vision. For him its a revolution against an unjust order, not a coup.

Its really the same kind of dynamic you see in the communist revolutions of the past. Idealistic or desperate people get swept up in the revolution, and then start to turn a blind eye to the planned famines, purges, and naked ambition of the movement's leaders. They justify the corruption and evil as necessary for the *greater good*. Kaname fits perfectly in this mold...and like other idealistic revolutionaries who outlive their usefulness he will no doubt be removed by Aizen when he becomes inconvenient.

Yes...this is my speculation on Kaname's motives so it might not be 100% correct. Great Cthulhu 19:14, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

I see what you mean; and it makes sense; but the end doesn't justify the means. I do believe that Sosuke will be the one to take out Kaname (in my mind it goes like this: Shinji and Sosuke are fighting; and Shinji nearly kills Sosuke but Kaname interferes; so Sosuke gives a speech on how he doesn't need him to protect him; and then eliminates him.)--Captain Brooks 19:56, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

-- "I see what you mean; and it makes sense; but the end doesn't justify the means."

I agree 100%. But in Kaname's world the ends *do* justify the means. This is what makes him as evil as Aizen or Gin.

Thats an interesting scenario. I could see that happening if Aizen gets frustrated enough. I have a feeling that Kaname & Gin are wise to their Dear Leader's moods though and work hard not to put themselves in that position. Great Cthulhu 20:03, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Its ironic how he tries to bring justice to the world; but by him joining Sosuke; he brings about a lot of unnecessary bloodshed. Kaname has questioned Sosuke's decision once (in the Turn back the pendulum arc when he offered to kill Shinji, and Sosuke said no, and then he insisted, and Sosuke repeated himself.. Kaname immediately knelt down and apologized to Sosuke), and I get the feeling he will do it again out of concern. Ohwell; only the manga will tell how the story will unfold.--Captain Brooks 20:50, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Concerning unnecessary bloodshed...I suppose it depends on how you look at it. Kaname might think that anything he does to bring about his wonderland will be totally justified because once its achieved their will be *no* more bloodshed ever. In that sense it would be a path of least bloodshed. Great Cthulhu 21:16, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

As opposed to bloodshed that will endure for his lifetime; makes sense. His hollow mask (if that is his ability which is stronger than bankai) should be amazing; possibly putting him on par with Sosuke without him donning hollow mask.I am really itchy for the next manga release.. --Captain Brooks 00:49, December 2, 2009 (UTC)

I honestly think that it comes down to what Kenpachi said earlier on in the series, it's simply that Tosen is afraid of Death. And all these contradictions are him just stalling for time until he can gain the power to defeat the only people who could kill him. Maybe?Captain of squad 0

-- Justifying his own cowardice? Yeah...that makes as much sense as anything. Great Cthulhu 06:00, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

So, Tousen is a hybrid shinigani/hollow (vizard) just like Ichigo. Wonder if he's got it since Soul Society or transformed after fleing SS. If it's the latter, it'd be too weird that he grasped total control in that few months after the previous arc and this one. Somebody had mentioned something about an upgraded version.. it makes sense, because the Vizards had 100 years to train and adapt to their new power and looking at this in a reasonable manner, they should've been able to handle Gin and Tousen without much trouble.. should but probably won't.. or it'd be too easy. What if Aizen got the same power as well? And he was already so powerful.. oh well... things will get very interesting.. can't wait to see when Unohana and Ichigo get back.. Deimonos 12:26, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

-- It could just be a matter of how and when Aizen refined the process. The Vizards were created long ago at the beginning of Aizen's research to see which way his studies should go. Their hollowification may be flawed or incomplete in some way since they were original test subjects. The shinigami equivalent to self-made arrancar.

Aizen would use nothing but the best & latest version of hollowfication on himself, Gin, and Kaname so they are relatively more powerful and refined compared to the Vizards and Espada. Ichigo may share this level or have something even more powerful because he used a different method.

Just my 02 cents. Great Cthulhu 15:12, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Good point. So I guess things we'll get pretty serious soon. Yama-ji, Kyoraku and maybe Ukitake (if he's not that badly injured) will have to show how the grown ups fight.. oh yeah.. Deimonos 16:05, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Now we want to talk about Hollowifaction of Gin and Tosen when I stated this so long ago. We still dont know if Gin has be through the hollowifation but in the forum I started called "Did We Forget" I that it was one of their reason of leaving the SS. I just wanted to "Ha I knew it" and "I told you so"! LOL I am just excited about what will happen next. Tealang99 17:01, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

I get the feeling that if Sosuke has and reveals his hollow mask; his hollow mask will be 2* as strong as Ichigo's hollow mask.--Captain Brooks 17:05, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Aizen was already powerful enough to bash Ichigo on bankai transformation without even releasing his own shikai. And I remember reading somewhere, someone speculating about them having hollow masks. Since it wasn't official, some of us just said "We don't know if that is true.. we just need to wait and see.".. Of course, the know it all types, please stand up, came up with the motto "fan speculating" and blah blah.. oh well.. Anyways, from what I've seen, I think when Ichigo died, he basically like "awakened" a more powerful hollow transformation, along with a higher reiatsu suply. LOL, being a total nerd here, it'd be like you're playing some RPG game and cheated, giving yourself 10 lvls. Of course, your max hp and mp will go way up but it doesn't necessarily mean that your current hp and mp will be maxed. They'll slowly fill up til it's on pair with the max stats... and that's what's happening to Ichigo.. but probably like 30 lvls or more, since Inoue was able to heal only one sleeve.. go Ichigo, go!! lol Deimonos 19:33, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

I THINK it is safe to say that Gin and Sosuke have hollow masks as well. Ichigo might have gained a new hollow mask; but apparently the last time he tried to summon it... it didn't work to well (aka Yammy about to kill him.)--Captain Brooks 19:55, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Should Tousen ba added to the unofficial Vizards like ichigo or a whole new group all together?Kensei24 20:09, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

We should wait until we know for certain that Aizen's bunch resembles your run-of-the-mill Vizard. Kaname pulled out a mask but that doesn't mean he might not do something even more freaky than a Vizard's mask, like an Arrancar's release. Great Cthulhu 20:15, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Lol you predication was right on point great Cthulhu.. anymore more predictions?--Captain Brooks 14:40, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

-- Ha! No more predictions. Sorry. Having those three manifest a Arrancar release just seemed like a logical extention of Aizen trying to thin the barrier between Hollow and Shinigami.

I'm more interested in seeing Shinji's Bankai in any case. It will be interesting to see Aizen be helpless before somebody else's power for once. Even if its only temporarily. Great Cthulhu 20:02, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Achieving peace?
This is something that i have been wondering about for sometime. Tosen was said to have joined aizen & gin because he was searching for greater peace, but i don't understand how going to hueco mundo would help him achieve this goal. GenoB.333 01:59, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

After having read the most recent chapter (what was it? 385? I'm too lazy to look), I'd think that it has more to do with peace with himself. Happily serving the people who he views as responsible for his best friend's murder would be disturbing. Taking them out, though, would bring resolution to the pain he still feels and sense of peace with himself. At least, that's what I think he thinks. Twocents  (Talk)  02:02, December 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah. Chapter 385 provided alot of insight for Tosen. I kno that I for one finally understand him now. Before I didn't kno what the crap he was thinking. Tho I am still confused about the Justice that he wants for the rest of the world. I also don't understand why he is choosing to follow Aizen. Their personalities r polar opposites. Minato  (Talk)  02:11, December 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps because he can't achieve vengeance against the Shinigami on his own? But with Aizen's aid, he can? Even if they have differing ideals, mutual goals can bring people together. Twocents   (Talk)  02:13, December 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * The justice Tosen is seeking is of the "an eye for an eye will turn the whole world blind" sort. The first books of Plato's The Republic discuss... well, what justice isn't. They provide some good reading that is of interest to this whole ordeal with Tosen and Soul Society. And, of course, Justice, Good and Peace go hand in hand.
 * 'And so, you and Homer and Simonides are agreed that justice is an art of theft; to be practiced however "for the good of friends and for the harm of enemies; that was what you were saying?"
 * "No, certainly not that, though I do not now know what I did say; but I still stand by the latter words."' Laguna 09:51, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Tosen can squawk about 'justice' all he wants. But the last chapter shows that all his talk of justice is just a polite facade to hide his bitter unreasoning hatred. He is going to use brute strength to kill a loyal friend who disagrees with him over the righteousness of Kaname's actions...the same sort of circumstances that killed his best friend all those years ago and set Tosen on his vengeance quest. Tosen's blindness is more than just literal. Great Cthulhu 16:18, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

I understand Tosen, he's sorta like Pain from Naruto. That us, he's willing to do anything to achieve justice, even if right now it just looks like slaughter and hypocrisy. He told Grimmjow something along the lines of that. He's just doing what he thinks is right, not necessarily good or evil, but right. Grimmjow2 16:47, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Tosen doesn't seem to believe in good or evil. Right now he just wants to kill the Soul Reapers and the Vizards and he doesn't care what lows he has to sink to in order to accomplish that goal. Kubo actually did a good job with Tosen as a character. I wonder what will happen next. The truth is I never saw a Resurreccion coming from any of them, but maybe Gin and Aizen can preform it too. Minato (Talk)  18:59, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Oh well, after chapter 386, he's pretty much a goner and next chapter is probably gonna feature Ichigo irriving at Karakura Town. Although I think Tousen's demise was a bit rushed. Many a chapter to show the lieutenants and captains fighting (Starrk was a bit fast as well) and Tousen dies in 2 chapters. Like Kubo is rushing to the real deal: Shinji losing to Aizen or about to as Ichigo arrives and then some lenghty (freeza vs goku like..) fight insues.. Deimonos 10:59, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Breaking Komamura's Bankai
On page 11 of Bleach Chapter 386 Komamura swings at Tosen with his Bankai, it is easily visible that it is not Tosen's large horn that stops the massive blade, Tosen grabs the blade with one of his left hands, the cracks in the blade are in what appears to be the same place that the chink appears in Komamura's Zanpakuto, but on the behemoths blade the cracks form where Tosen grabs the blade with his raised left hand, his second left arm is hanging on his left while both right arms are hanging on his right, his left horn doesn't even seem to come into any contact with the blade--Fuhrer Reaper 19:05, December 17, 2009 (UTC)