Talk:Tōshirō Hitsugaya

This is a talk page for Tōshirō Hitsugaya

Protagonist
Excuse me but... Since when he is "along with Ichigo Kurosaki and Rukia Kuchiki, one of the three central protagonists of the series" (?) i know he's one of the most popular bleach characters so far, but despiting this and the fact that he's the central character in Bleach:The DiamonDust Rebellion, he's just another cool character in Bleach major story just like Byakuya Kuchiki, Grimmjow Jeagerjaques, Urahara Kisuke or Zennosuke Kurumadani as well. Maul day 09:52, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say he's a "central protagonist", but he is an important character. At least, until Halibel finishes wiping the floor with him. I'd argue that Byakuya and Urahara are more important, though. Big red01027 19:15, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think he's a main protagonist during the Aizen Incident, but later becomes less important. Suzumushi
 * I agree with you, Suzumushi. But I think he's one of the central protagonists because he's one of the only charaters in the series who starred in a Bleach movie. Ernestpun

Hyōrinmaru's debut
is it really in the diamond dust rebellion? Since that film is set after the soul society arcs I would have thought it came out after Hyōrinmaru is revealed in the anime. Old-one-eye 15:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Temporary Protection
This page has been temporarily protected for 1 day due to constant changes over one particular issue. Salubri 16:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

This page has been temporarily protected until the next chapter, which is to be determined as of the release in relation to Golden Week, due to constant changes over one particular issue. Salubri 22:35, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Unprotected, there has been no major spoilers this week on that page, plus, locking a page due to an editing war is not our admin-policy, talk with the user instead, please.

Even if we did, I don't think it matters at this point. I saw nobody attempting to change it (though that might change), and I worded it in a way that's vague and can be interpreted either way by anyone who reads it. Arrancar109 20:25, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Talking was done with everyone who was involved in it got no where they still decided to do what they wanted as there are alot of people that hate toshiro for whatever reason. Its like more often then not they dont care they do what they want, like the same with the spoiler thing and the worst part was it was people that have been here not new people. Salubri 02:07, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Ice Clone skill in Bankai?
According to the latest manga, he had shown to use an ice made clone to fight with Halibel before he fights her by himself. He can only use this skill once per Bankai release. Shouldn't we add this skill to his Bankai abilities?--Kroduz 07:13, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

thats where its at. Salubri 11:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes but it did not state that he can use the skill ONCE per Bankai. --Kroduz 14:47, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

ugh it clearly states that as well. Salubri 15:10, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Wel according to Maximum 7's release, it was never stated that he could only use the skill once. And, Maximum 7 are much better translators than Sleepy Fans. The page I was referring to.MVPVasto 14:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Change to page's format?
How come many of Toshiro's information sections are now in scroll boxes? Was that intentional? Because it seems to me that all of the scrolling would make it difficult for people to read his page. Twocents 23:38, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Height
I noticed his appearance description specifies that he is short because of his age. How do we know that's true? Where is it stated that's the only reason he's short? Because unless it's specifically stated that's the only reason for him being vertically challenged, I could see that it's fully possible that he's merely short due to genetics and won't grow anymore anyway. Twocents 05:27, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As no one said anything, I removed that from his description. Twocents 03:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Grandmother
Guys I am a bit concerned with the wording of this phrase "It is also known that Tōshirō's favorite food is sweet nattō. His grandmother even used to send it to him into the division quarters." I don't know about anyone else, but to me it kind of implies that his grandmother is dead or in the very least not sending natto to him anymore. However, as far as I know, his grandmother is very much alive. Indeed of the translations of the Bleach bootleg that I managed to track down what it says is "Sugared nattou is his grandmother's favorite dish, and since he's eaten it from an early age he still likes the taste. Occasionally his grandmother, who lives in Rukongai, sends care packages to the division offices for him." Which also seems to indicate his grandmother is alive and still sending care package containing sugared nattou when she can. So... perhaps it could be changed somewhat to not imply Toshiro's granny is dead or not sending him care packages any more. Tinni 08:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Reworded. Twocents 14:46, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Ice petals and regen
"But he has since surpassed this "stage" as shown during his battle with Luppi (the sixth Espada for a time), where he states that as long as there is water in the surrounding area or atmosphere, his Bankai can regenerate itself indefinitely [70] It should be noted that in his most recent battle with Harribel that the petals have returned with the petals still fading away as he fights.[71] "

Since he has the weakness before and after, can't we assume that he did not surpass that stage, and the bankai regeneration was refering to endlessly while he has the spirit energy to maintain it? (I.e. petals are intact). That is, it can be broken any number of times and then fixed as long as there's water in the air and it doesn't need normal healing time like other broken zanpaku-to, but he can still only manifest it so long at a time. ZeroSD 01:22, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

Disobeyed Orders
It says that Hitsugaya has gone so far as to disobey orders to help Ichigo out on his cases. I don't recall that ever having happened, and can't find any mention of it. The closest thing I can think of was when he started his role in the "Rescue Rukia" Arc, to stop the execution. He did disobey orders, but he didn't even know Ichigo, and he had his own reasons. He got the chance to when Orihime was captured, and again during the "New Captain Amagai" Filler Arc when Ichigo, Rukia, and Amagai charged on the Kasumi-Ooji House, but in both cases he followed orders. When did he disobey orders for Ichigo? WestleyCole 18:28, September 8, 2009 (UTC)

Sword on back
The article stated that hitsugaya is one four who carry their zanpaktou on their back (other's being ichigo, love, hiyori). What about soifon??? (And yes i know it's really got nothing to do with hitsugaya)--Cyberflame 19:11, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

What they were refering to was the over-one-shoulder, diagonal-down-across-the-back-to-the-waist. You know, where you draw the weapon from the shoulder. Soi Fon (and Matsumoto, for that matter), has her Zanpakutō horizontal on the belt line. It is on the backside, but not the back. It's on her waist. WestleyCole 01:51, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

Oh... okay now I get it :DD --Cyberflame 14:10, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

Where does it say that Hyorinmaru is 140 cm or longer than Hitsugaya is tall? All the images I've seen have shown the blade being almost if not as tall as Hitsugaya? Unless you can tell me where, please change Hitsugaya's page to say Hyorinmaru is as/almost as tall as Hitsugaya.

Ryusenka
In the most recent filler, Hitsugaya was able to use Ryusenka in shikai mode. Do we add this to his Shikai part, make a note of it in trivia or something or just ignore it as it is just part of a filler and not canon? Just curious --Shinitenshi 04:50, October 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thats a really good question. I personally would make a note of it, but I don't plan on altering his page until Arrancar109 & Salubri respond with their opinions. Minato88 18:38, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Clearly I am losing my mind because I was certain I had replied to this before going to bed yesterday. A well, here's my opinion: I think we can assume that Hitsugaya can use most of his skills in both bankai and shikai. On top of that I noticed we have the line: "Hitsugaya's control over Hyōrinmaru's power has been shown great enough to unleash some of its ice powers even in its sealed state and use any of its Bankai attacks (with less control) with Shikai." I think this covers it. We don't need to say for each attack that "he used this in shikai as well". Tinni 21:46, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Tensō Jūrin technique
It doesn't have an official translation? I tried an online translator (yahoo! babel fish) and it came out as "Heaven phase secondary overlooking".--Weedefinition 12:57, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Maximum7 translated it as "Conquest of the heavens". Ju-ni said it was loosely "subjugation and control of weather". Pick one of them if you want to add it but do not add the online translator version. Those things are far inferior to the most inferior scanlations and Maximum7 and Ju-Ni are two of the best scanlation groups. Tinni 13:11, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Are all the translations of technique names kidos and zanpakutos just fan scanlations? isn't there some official source to look into?--Weedefinition 17:53, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

If u watch the japanese subbed anime, when using a technique i.e when Ichigo uses his Getsuga Tensho, words will appear at the same time in parenthesis. In Ichigos case it will say at the bottom Getsuga Tensho & at the top in parenthesis it will say (Moon Fang Piercer Of Heaven). Though I have noticed it isn't always word for word it is always very similar. I imagine most of the meaning of the techniques, Zanpakuto, & other name meanings on this website come from this source. Minato88 18:04, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Trivia section clean-up
Removed trivia,


 * Currently, Tōshirō has used his Bankai more than any captain, and any character other than Ichigo Kurosaki: a total of 4 times in the manga, 6 in the anime (including his fight against Gō Koga and the Cloning Arrancar,) and 9 times total (this includes the second OVA, the first movie and the second).


 * Tōshirō is one of the three current captains who doesn't appear during the Turn Back the Pendulum mini arc. The others are Sajin Komamura and Kenpachi Zaraki.

I call JUNK! Tinni 00:51, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Bankai
His comment about his regeneration was not referring to the duration of his Bankai. Rather, things like his wings, tail and claws will regenerate as long as there is water in the air. Magugag

After looking over the referenced page (link in case someone wants to see it), I agree that it makes more sense to break it up into two separate sections. The regeneration doesn't seem to be that related to the time limit. Twocents 03:40, December 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Also note in his fight with Shawlong that he regenerated the severed wing but not the melted petals. I think the reasoning there is sound. Magugag 03:54, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

I don't think I completely understand this or the point of this. The wings r his Bankai. Other then that and the guard the appearence of his Bankai and Shikai r the same(Cause the chain doesn't always appear and sometimes appears before he releases so using that isn't a good argument. His bankai is the same as his shikai. As long as there is water and he has enough spirit pressure to maintain Bankai, infinite regeneration is possible. The flower petals are also linked to his attacking capability. The fight with Harribel is also sound. Minato  04:00, December 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, but it was said that once the flower petals disappear entirely, he will no longer be able to use his Bankai. That is the point. Magugag 04:02, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

I don't know how carefully you read over his changes, Minato, but Magugag didn't remove any of that. He just compressed some unnecessarily lengthy sentences and then separated the Bankai Regeneration ability from the Bankai time limit. Based on what was found in the manga in the references provided, it makes sense to separate those two sections, because they don't seem to rely on each other. His regeneration of his Bankai's wings, etc. doesn't add time on to the petals. Twocents 04:03, December 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the support; Minato seems to agree, on a second look at the changes. Mainly what I was trying to do was remove a misconception that his Bankai is unlimited in its duration by making the abilities a little clearer. Magugag 04:06, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad we reached an agreement then. And reading the original version, I'm surprised that such a poorly-worded paragraph stayed up for so long! Thanks for your efforts, Magugag. (And I apologize if you're actually female. I see that I used the pronoun "he" to refer to you.) Twocents 04:10, December 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Definitely a guy, so you're in the clear. Also, I removed the past tense from the time limit section of the article, since his flower petals have reappeared. It makes me wonder if the author slipped up in not drawing them for his battle with Luppi. Magugag 04:12, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

I do agree, but don't see the point. Also here a link (the link). It continues on for a few pages. While I agree the Petal thing is confusing, but Toshiro never once confirmed anything Shawlong said. It is this way in the Anime and Manga. Also later on it is revealed that the Flower Petals r the link to Toshiro's most powerful attack. So I am inclined to think Shawlong was wrong, but just leave the page the way it is. Doesn't really matter to me. Minato 04:13, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

The point is that leaving the two sections together incorrectly gives the perception that Toshiro's Bankai can be regenerated indefinitely, allowing him to use it indefinitely, when that's not the case.

While I understand that he didn't confirm it, I'm not sure the dissolving flower petals are related to that 100 snow flowers thing he used against Harribel. He later implies that it's accurate here, because it sounds like he's running out of time to use his best attack. Twocents  (Talk)  04:21, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

I do all the power and abilities sections so a better explanation here is since when do we put down flaws or weaknesses in someone's skill or ability. Whether or not it was already there is pointless the fact that its out there seperate is the point if thats an issue its already mentioned in the synopsis and anything referring to a time-limit is a drawback that shouldnt be listed. Salubri 04:26, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

U r right Twocents. While the flower petals r confusing, as Salubri said the information is there and accurate. Sorry to cause any problems, but I just don't understand the Ice/Flower Petal thing. Minato 04:32, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't understand the difference or you don't understand how the time limit petals work? If it's the latter, then I could see that maybe other people could be confused, and maybe it should be written in a clearer way. My general impression is that when Toshiro activates his Bankai, flowers with a total of 12 petals appear alongside/behind him. As he continues to use his Bankai, the petals dissolve. When all 12 petals have dissolved, he can no longer use his Bankai. It's a similar restriction to Soifon's Bankai as she can only fire it once every three days or risk fatiguing herself, though we don't know what would happen if Toshiro attempted to use his Bankai after all 12 petals disappeared. Does that make more sense? Twocents   (Talk)  04:36, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

The point was made but anything referring to a time-limit should be removed. It is mentioned twice in the synopsis and we dont list character weaknesses in their profiles, otherwise we have to add the weaknesses of every character which is subjective alot of the time. Salubri 04:39, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not so sure. I find this along the lines of Soifon's Bankai (and her weakness is listed in the Bankai section), because this isn't something that's subjective. It's shown clearly in the manga and anime on multiple occasions (in the form of the petals with descriptions from the arrancar and implied by himself). It's not like saying, "Oh, but he's kind of young, so he may not be as good as he could be when he gets older." It has references that are verifiable. Twocents   (Talk)  04:45, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Y and N. I just don't get how they can be used for attacks and yet r a limiter. Also why r the Petals a different color. His powers confuse me. I get the limit thing, but the regeneration and Reiryoku thing bugs me. If that is a correct meter, why does it have two functions. Plus Ice is water, so why couldn't Harribel block his final attack. "sigh" The whole thing is confusing. Minato 04:43, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * They aren't related. The time limit petals are a time limit on his Bankai, but the 100 petal thing he used against Harribel is an ability separate of that and it doesn't come from the petals - it comes from snow he creates in the atmosphere. And she wasn't able to block his attack because it worked faster than her ability to melt it with her Hirendo (or whatever it's called). Twocents   (Talk)  04:45, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Soifon's is listed in special ability section this is out on its own regardless of it not being subjective its up there along with the powers and advantages when its clearly a weakness. Now if theres a arguement to it being a advantage in battle then fine but if not then it either needs to be removed or placed under special ability paragraph. Salubri 04:53, December 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with it being moved to the special ability section. Which I see you've already done, thanks. I just didn't think such a relevant point should be deleted entirely.


 * And I'm glad you get it now, Minato, though I wasn't talking about Soifon as a discussion of her - just as a point of comparison. Twocents   (Talk)  05:13, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Oh okay, now I get it. Thanks Twocents. For now I am going to go look at and try to make heads and tails out of Adam Restling's post on the Talk:Kido page. Also this comment should be the last as it has gotten long, quick. Talk about Soifon's abilities can be had on her talkpage. I'll mark this and other as Discussion closed in a minute. Thank u to all for settling this quick and easy, my fav way. Minato 04:56, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Tensō Jūrin
Can't we add Tensō Jūrin as a shikai ability as well? We have seen him do it in the manga while in shikai. 

And, Toshiro just confirmed in 359 that the ability can be used while in shikai. Also, the little flashback on that page confirms the ability I linked to first is the same technique.MVPVasto 20:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok first you made false statements. No where did he say it affected a 7 mile radius and at no time did he discuss it with izura kia. secondly while he does mention its use outside of bankai he has never used it until this past chapter in battle and so named. Third under his shikai its mentioned the weather changed in his fight. Though it is most likely the ability he wasnt using it for battle and as is inferred by him the power is immature and it obviously has a greater power in bankai mode. He was in bankai mode when he presented it. so the power is fully listed in shikai as it is used during that mode though without name as there would be no point as it wasnt used for fighting and it is fully explained under bankai when he actually stated its use. Salubri 20:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

During the chapter Hitsugaya had a flashback to his fight with Gin Ichimaru, where he told the others (Rangiku with the unconscious Momo I believe) to flee because he still had difficulty manipulating Hyorinmaru's weather-controlling abilities. He was in shikai at the time - the ability he was using was Tenso Jurin, as he revealed in this chapter. The point of this is that he has never attempted to use it while in bankai - Hyoten Hyakkaso is (apparently) a bankai-exclusive expansion to the ability. Mohrpheus 20:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry im confused when was this flash back i remember the fight but there hasnt been a flashback in anything recent and conveniently no one names a chapter or page. Im going from the relevant chapter its named and actually used in combat, in either case its as i said before what little he has done in shikai with the ability is listed under that category. I never said it wasnt used before and im pretty sure most of those who were around when it was mentioned dont truly no of it as he even states he doesnt use it really, anything he said was in passing. Him using and detailing no carries more weight then he maybe sort of kind of using it in a fight during the beginning of the series. Salubri 23:29, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

It was on page 6 of 359. It wasn't really a flashback per se, but it was a reference to the time he previously used the ability (the shaded panels are from a very early chapter, the number eludes me). So basically, the weather manipulating ability mentioned in the profile's shikai section is indeed Tenso Jurin. Mohrpheus 23:39, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok i actually looked at the recent chapter and your right no flashback but what was actually amazing was there was no reference to anything previous, i know this cause i went and looked up the chapter with the situation your talking about and not once did he even allude to the power. In fact what was said was that gin told izuru he should move back if he didnt want to die and hitsuguya tells izuru that what he should actually do is leave and that if he doesnt leave and doesnt go farther then 7 miles he cant promise him he wont get dragged into the fight that is about to take place between the two captains. In fact the only one to mention controlling the weather was izuru when hitsuguya released his shikai against gin and izuru commented on how it was the first time he saw it and how its the most powerful ice zanpakuto in all of the soul society. He is also the one that says it has power over water and the weather itself, not hitsuguya. Also none of the panels from the current chapter correspond to anything in the one detailing the past confrontation. Salubri 00:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

You're missing the point - since it was first revealed, Hyorinmaru has been shown to have the ability to manipulate the weather, with the ability's name being revealed only now. I made an error regarding the flashback, but my point still stands. Toshiro specifically stated in this chapter that he can use Tenso Jurin in both shikai and bankai, but that he has never used it in the latter before. Tenso Jurin was the ability he was using against Gin, seeing as the ability's current description matches it exactly. Therefore, the ability should be referenced as "Tenso Jurin" in the shikai section. Mohrpheus 14:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

I actually think your missing the point, if you read what i originally wrote i never said he didn't use it in shikai before. Secondly its common knowledge it controls water, ice and the weather so thats not disputed either. But as far as your referencing his fight with Gin your wrong, i looked it up yesterday also something i previously wrote. He used his normal shikai attack against him, no weather control abilities were used in the battle. Once again under the shikai section it states the minor control in weather and the doesnt count as the actual attack that he does currently in any case you can see chapter 132 for yourself. Ill place it under shikai because i think it wont be out of place, but your referencing is wrong it was never used as an attack and there is no real description of the ability its just what is shown. Salubri 17:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

You were right about the whole Gin fight, so I'm sorry if I sounded uncouth about the matter. I see that Tenso Jurin was added to his shikai abilities, but I think that Hyoten Hyakkaso is a bankai-exclusive expansion of it. Sorry if I am annoying you by dragging out this matter, but I just want to make sure that things are 100% accurate. Mohrpheus 19:53, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Well i put it up there because its a facet of the weather control ability foremost but you might be right on that. Salubri 19:56, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe Tenso Jurin's power is half(maybe less or more) when in Shikai, full power in Bankai with limiter released, so thats why he used it towards Gin in Soul Society(maybe is because he doesn't want to destroy the building). --Kroduz 06:33, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Salubri asked if I could translate "Tensou Juurin" itself. The verbal usage intended is somewhat ambiguous, but here is the breakdown:


 * ten "heaven"
 * sou "aspect, phase, nature"; sometimes also "mutual, (al)together, reciprocal" (? < "of one nature")
 * juu has a variety of meanings, but most seem derived from the base meaning "second(ary), following"; from there, we get "follow, accompany, (be a) fellow" and "subdue, subjugate" (< "make (someone) follow")
 * rin "face, confront, meet, call on, rule over"

Thus, I think the best translation may be "subjugation of the heavens." Sou meaning "nature, aspect" (as well as, sometimes, "mutual, together") could be seen, when suffixed as here to ten "heaven", as kind of adjectival, e.g. "heaven-aspect/nature" > "like the heavens" > "the heavens." The combination of juu with rin meaning "to face, rule over, call on" seems to suggest that the meaning "subjugate" of juu is the intended one. If a slightly more literal translation was desired, we could stick with "subjugation of the phases of heaven" or some such.

What do you think? Adam Restling 06:49, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Amazing your good i must say. There has been nobody to even come up with anything relating to this technique. Thanks we'll use subjugation of the heavens as it seems simple and good. Thanks. Salubri 06:57, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Zanpakuto translation
Hyōrinmaru (氷輪丸, "Ice Ring", idiomatically "Frozen Full Moon") and Daiguren Hyōrinmaru (大紅蓮 氷輪丸, Great Crimson Lotus Ice Ring, Grand Crimson Lotus Ice Ring)

There are multiple possible translations given but we only need one and the most accurate would be the best. Salubri (Talk)  19:18, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Hyourinmaru

hyou | kooru "freeze; freezing (icy, iced-up)"; hi, koori "ice"

rin | wa "ring, wheel, circle"

-maru (see my note a above)

I would translate "'ice ringer." As noted in the present article, hyourin is also used as a poetic kenning for the moon, the "frozen ring of the nighted heavens." Daiguren Hyourinmaru features dai, tai | ookii "grand, big, large"; oo(k)isa "size, dimension, yield" (< "largeness"), gu, ku, kou | beni, kurenai "red, deep red, crimson; rouge," and ren | ha(chi)su, lotus. I translate dai 大 as "grand" usually, and save "great" to translate similar 太 "thick, great" because of the identical semantic range with English great "big, excellent" and the English coming from Old English grēat "thick, coarse"; however, if "great" seems better to you all, I'd use it. Thus "grand crimson lotus Hyourinmaru." Adam Restling 06:51, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Hyorinmaru is it (ice ringer) What way would one make that more poetic while keeping it as literal as possible. Salubri (Talk)  07:30, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

While I personally would keep Hyourinmaru as "ice ringer," it could be more palatable to you to use "ice ringed" or plain "ice ring" and leave the nominalizing use of -maru implied but not directly specified in the translation itself. Adam Restling 07:44, January 19, 2010 (UTC)