Forum:Hollows and Bankai

Please feel free to move this to whichever thread you'd like, but I couldnt find the correct area to insert it.

Just a thought, and as always up for debate or purely crap...either way thought I'd say it. I've seen some discussion somewhere, usually relating to Tosen about Hollowification, Shinigamification and Bankai, Resurrection, etc. I would expect that each hollow, undergoing shinigamification anyway, does indeed have a bankai, or at the very least a chance like the shinigami to master Bankai. I say this because of a comment WAY back in the Anime, episode 59, when Hollow Ichigo takes over in the fight against Byakuya. He states (in the translation I watched) "I'll show you how to use Bankai." Or something to that effect, and almost each and everytime Ichigo summons his mask he has already attempted to win and usually fell short fighting with Bankai alone. Now, his hollows familiarity with Bankai and his ability to use all the techniques Ichigo uses, would tell me that he has known about them for some time.

I assume that given time to master/perfect their newly found shinigami powers, that the Espada could have eventually not only learned the name of their zanpaktou (possibly their resurrection) and then achieved Bankai. Assuming obviously that they dont have the device Ichigo used to acquire Bankai, and they definitely did not have 100+ years of training since they gained shinigami powers, or official training that the shinigami have at the academy, I would assume it's possible they could have achieved a shikai/bankai ability.

The also would most likely be true, that all shinigami that have undergone hollowification (Vizards, Ichigo, etc) would be able to achieve some level of resurrection. As the Espada all had mask fragments, and they had resurrection, no reason to believe that after obtaining a mask, a shinigami can't achieve a resurrection. Now, can these abilities (resurrection/bankai) be used simultaneously...I have no idea, we'll have to wait, probably for Shinji or Aizen (my guess anyway) to demonstrate.

As always please tell me I'm right, I'm wrong, what I made a mistake on, I follow Bleach closely...but I miss things like most people do. Orionradar 04:44, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

There is a number of holes in your "theory". Hollow Ichigo has stated he gained Bankai the same time as ichigo, while he does show better capability in fighting then Ichigo does it has nothing to do with bankai. Ichigo's lack of being able to win with bankai im comparison to those who have it (captains) and don't have a hollow mask, proves more or less he is not experienced enough to use zanpakuto powers alone. Which makes sense considering that bankai takes years to master even if one does possess it. Hence why Renji has only defeated one opponent with his to date though he has used it in every engagement sense acquiring it. The fact is how hollow ichigo knows how to use the abilities better then ichigo is largely unknown, but seeing that he and zangetsu share the same physical body in the inner world it maybe that he just has a deeper connection then ichigo and better instinct at fighting. Also Arrancar are not shown to possess any shinigami abilities, the process they go through only makes them more humanoid and gives them a sword to seal their true power in, they just call their weapon a zanpakuto, though in truth it really isn't. They by and large possess innately hollow powers and some variations of them. Having shikai and bankai would require having a zanpakuto spirit and seeing as that is not what they have they are incapable of either release. The names of their "zanpakuto" seems to be a reflection of their former hollow forms, powers, personalities. Seeing that resurreccion basically sword return it would stand to reason they already know the method to regain their former powers. They need not go through the same process as a shinigami who has to attune themselves to a individual spirit. Nor do they have a school of formal training to bring skills about that a shinigami would possess. While it is shown a Shinigami-Hollow Hybrid to possess shikai, bankai and resurreccion, as well as hollowfication. Whether or not Bankai and resurreccion can be used at the same time seems unlikely as detailed with ichigo only one being can be in control at a time either the inner hollow is being used as the primary power source or the zanpakuto spirit is (each acts as bring out a full power) though seeing as hybrid is the term used here both may be possible. In any case what has been shown is that the Shinigami-Hybrid is essentially far more powerful then an Arrancar (as an arrancar doesn't seem to be capable of all the abilities that the shinigami-hybrid is shown to possess, seemingly being more hollow and less versatile). Salubri (Talk)  05:32, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

I guess thats essentially what I'm saying to a point. Time may be the greatest weapon that the shinigami have. We've seen hundreds of lower ranking shinigami die because they didnt have the powers or capability of going into shikai and bankai because they havent communicated with their zanpaktou and learned it. So the hollow-hybrid could essentially be as powerful as the shinigami hybrid given time to get in-tuned with their zanpaktous spirit. If they just gained their sword and powers, wouldnt they more or less be at the same level as an initial shinigami academy grad? Hence why they rely on their hollow powers instead of new shinigami powers, otherwise, what is the point of sealing away their power? I have to believe that it is possible for them to gain a spirit from inside (similar to ichigo) just none of them have had the time to pursue that end goal. Of course..mainly speculative...Orionradar 05:45, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Thus what i was getting at time isn't really the issue the issue is that it is just not something they are capable of achieving. There is nothing that would remotely even lean in that direction, for all purposes being hybrids when one is originally a hollow is not beneficial. Without advancement from the hogyoku natural arrancar aren't even a threat. There is nothing to state that a hollow based hybrid is capable of anything more then what we have seen (presumably because they are hollows) a degeneration of a human soul due to negative emotions. This also follows form as to why most hollows while dangerous are no threat to a captain or most lieutenants. But as i stated before a zanpakuto spirit is born with a shinigami why the shinigami-hollow hybrid possesses one is because they did as shinigami. While the exact opposite is not true for the arrancar in any case prior to becoming arrancar and even after they do not have true zanpakuto in any sense, it is only in name. The point of sealing away the power is to allow them to maintain a humanoid form and conserve their power during inactivity. Thus a similar reason as why vizard dont always wear masks or captains dont always walk around using bankai to conserve power and stave off exhaustion. There is no shinigami powers to speak of not to mention they are inherently hollows at their core it is against their nature to be even remotely close to shinigami when they think themselves superior to shinigami. As you have stated what your talking of is highly speculative and doesn't add up with the information known. For any of it to be possible then it would have to backed within the realm of actual information, in this case the information is against it. For any of it to be possible what has already been stated would all have to be wrong. Salubri (Talk)  06:49, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

Quick question now that I'm awake and thinking a bit more clearly.

Now that we have seen Shinji's shikai and realize the depth (or amount of time from conception to unveiling) of his character as someone else pointed out (him always being seen upside down, writing his name backwards...months ago) do you really think that the Espada called their sword a zanpaktou as a mistake by the author? Again, completely my assumption, but to me it would have been easy to say "this is my katana, I seal spiritual energy...blah blah blah"

Also, you are saying it is impossible for hollows to gain a separate soul within themselves that would constitute a zanpaktou soul, now while I dont disagree based on evidence, what "power" did Tosen have sealed away to release his resurrection form? He didnt succumb to his inner hollow the way ichigo does whenever he is in full hollow form. Correct me if I'm wrong, but have we seen three people (Ichigo, Rose, Love) who are able to utilize shikai and a hollow mask at the same time right? (I don't remember if Hiyori had her mask on at the time, and Tosen to my recollection never used any shinigami abiltiies after he donned his mask. ) So to me, given the time to search for their inner soul there is no evidence that a hollow COULDNT (not has, or will) find a zanpaktou spirit, communicate with it, and then presumably have at least a shikai commad? Just as shinigami have to do through their own training.

I also wanted to wildly question one more thing you said about hollows sealing away their powers. Even after they release into their resurrection, they only look "closer" to what their true hollow form was, they never fully recover (example is Grimmjow). Also, I am assuming because we havent seen one way or the other (correct me if I'm wrong) ANY espada use the abilities we've seen as a hollow? (Again, we havent seen much of that side of the story) For instance, while an actual panther, could Grimmjow use Desgarron? Has Barragan always been able to use Respira? Basically I'm wondering if those abilities are somehow "Kido" related. Maybe they arent in the 99 spells, but neither is Yumichikas shikai. To me...those are "shinigami" powers unique to that hollow...or maybe they were latent hollow powers I dont know...pure guess here...

I just don't think the writers were making a mistake by calling it a Zanpaktou, especially since presumably the Espada have been around long enough to know what a shinigami's zanpaktou is and have a large hatred for them and thereby wouldnt associate their powers with that of a shinigami unless there were related (maybe word doesnt travel in Hueco Mundo and no espada has ever heard/seen a shinigami until Aizen came alone, but I doubt it, just a thought)

Oh, and while I'm sure Salubri you're just cursing the fact I keep writing back...I dont really have too many friends this into Bleach...so it's a good to toss out ideas and have someone respond even to tell me I'm insane...haha Hence why I keep throwing them out there...Orionradar 12:59, January 2, 2010 (UTC)

No the Espada calling their sword a zanpakuto is not a mistake by the author. The Arrancar specifically state in the manga that it is their true power and form sealed away and that it is entirely different from the zanpakuto that the shinigami use. They just simply call it a zanpakuto, who knows why its never elaborated on and it would make it simple if they just say sword or called it something different. But its their power sealed in sword form and the primary swords in the series are called zanpakuto so why not just call them that even if the function is entirely different from a true one. The name zanpakuto simply means soul-cutter and the weapons the arrancar use is technically capable of cutting a spirit-body so the use of the name is true enough in that sense. Prior to Tosen releasing his resurreccion he stated he had a inner hollow just like ichigo and the vizard do. The point is that in a hollow-shinigami hybrid the inner hollow is the source of ones hollow powers just as the the zanpakuto spirit is the source of a shinigami's zanpakuto's power. The unconfirmed assumption is that the inner hollow would be capable of resurreccion just as the zanpakuto spirit fuels bankai. Hiyori was wearing her mask and there is nothing keeping them from using their hollow mask and shinigami abilities just as ichigo does it just seems they dont do so for whatever reason. The basic flaw in your reasoning is the concept of communication, Arrancar let alone hollows barely stand each other let alone a partner they have to train in order to develop a deep personal connection and communication with a zanpakuto is hard already enough for a shinigami. Not to mention the fact that they aren't real zanpakuto and on the note that they already possess enough power what point would it be to attaining something that defines the nature of what they are, solitary creatures that rely entirely on consuming souls and the development of their own power. Also there is a level of training required in wielding a zanpakuto that is highly formalized. It is unknown what abilities if any Grimmjow could use as a hollow, the abilities he currently wields may have only developed after his evolution to an arrancar. Apparently Baraggan may have been capable of using Respira as there is nothing to state he was any more of a hollow when aizen meets him then Starrk was. Kido requires concentration, mindset and incantation which only barragan has shown any knowledge of in relation to his abilities not being stopped by it. Not to mention the only power said to show signs of being similar to kido is zommari's in that it was spiritually aligned enough to be blocked by Kido. Zanpakuto's such as yumichika are kido based as in they have special abilities which the sword is designed around, these are types having nothing to do with the spells used, they are only used to distinguish zanpakuto capabilities. This also includes (Aizen, shinji, momo, tosen, unohana, urahara). Salubri (Talk)  04:33, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that a soul becoming a Hollow necessarily precludes their possession of Shinigami power that they have failed to awaken in time. Look at Ichigo, for one: There was no question that he would have become a Hollow had he not attained his Shinigami powers in time to stop the transformation; I doubt that, had he completed his transformation, he would have permanently lost access to his zanpakutou (the core element of being a Shinigami in the first place), since it is a practically indivisible part of his soul.

Additionally, IMO the reason why none of the known Arrancar have displayed proper Shinigami powers (assuming the original non-Hollow soul possessed the potential for that in the first place) is that, aside from prevalent bias/hatred against the Shinigami creating a mental block of sorts that impedes their ability to do so, such a feat is made harder by the fact that they had become Hollows before awakening those powers. This forms an interesting parallel with the difficulty of obtaining Hollow powers for Shinigami (a la Visored, Tousen), though the latter is in the form of risking complete transformation into a mindless Hollow instead.

Of course, all this weighs nothing in the face of any future statements by Kubo-sensei that may debunk this little hypothesis of mine. MarqFJA 17:39, March 7, 2010 (UTC)