Bleach Wiki talk:Policy & Standards Committee

Common name - best name?
Hey everyone.

I've noticed that we've lately had a tendency to move pages from English titles to Romanji titles. I started a discussion about moving Chain of Fate, which Mohrpheus, Godisme and Lia already commented on.

As suggested I brought in Salubri and his reaction was that this trend is unwelcome, since most users will usually search for the familiar English term, mostly from dub anime. So the moves of Hell Butterfly→Jigokuchō and Artificial Soul→Gikon might not be the best policy. I suggest we make a clear policy as to how we name an article whose title has more than one known version.

I think the rule of thumb should be this: Give the article the title most users are likely to look for when they get into the Wiki for the first time, looking for information on the subject. That is because our auto-complete only completes the names of main articles, not redirects. This would rule out Jigokuchō, Gikon, Denreishinki and even Ōken, although the last one is debatable. WD  Converse  00:27, October 31, 2010 (UTC)

This is what i have been saying for a while. When it seemed we had a standard of moving items to the Romaji, I said ok only because I believed that this was the standard. People will be searching for the english names. If they want to learn the Romaji, we have translation templates for that but for the most part, we should be putting what people know as long as it is correct--God (Pray)  03:34, October 31, 2010 (UTC)

I actually prefer the Japanese names, mostly because the translations can be inaccurate. I understand that people and titles are out of the question, we can't go around the wiki changing all "captain" to "Taicho", but I think the articles look better with the Japanese names, and I feel some cases like the Denreishinki, what's the translation of that?. Of course, functionality-wise, yes, the English names are better. But the Japanese terms are the actual names, just like we use Zanpakuto and Shinigami. And the auto-complete doesn't work on certain articles BTW. I can never get auto-complete for Aizen because the second letter is an Ō, (finding his image gallery is a pain) but as long as there's a redirect for the English name, I don't see the problem to keep the original Jap for items and objects. As long as anyone can find the article, it should be fine Lia Schiffer   (Talk)  06:03, October 31, 2010 (UTC)

Lia's point is basically the perspective I've been seeing this whole thing through. Case and point, the Japanese terms are static, since they are derived directly from the raw source material. However, translations can vary greatly depending on who is doing them, most evident among the various scanlators that host the series. We accept Ju-Ni as our standard translation hub, but this causes inconsistency because not only can we not access older chapters, I don't believe the group even worked on the series that far back. Even our resident translator Adam has told us that there are many different ways to interpret the language that are all correct; the ones he suggests are often the ones that generally sound better. Asides from that, I'm not even sure how we can even gauge what fans consider the most "common" term. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  23:40, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

The point here is the perspective lia brings up is counter to what the site does. Yes Japanese is the prime point and will always be featured, though in some places it stands that they just dont make sense as the main tag line. Nobody in english knows of it or uses it, lets be honest no one is gonna look for the japanese version of the attack. But some just make sense over the english translation as well. The point here we can argue perspective to we are blue in the face but the fact is this is a english based wiki of a japanese based manga series and we have to walk a line. In light of that i think further moves or changes shouldn't be made there is a simple medium that we have currently some things are in japanese and thats fine others are english and thats fine alot of the series translations provide for these two points to exist. --Salubri (Talk)  23:57, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

My feelings are that anything that we all know by a universal english name, such as Hell Butterfly and such should be left in english. Basically if we have to go to the raws and find the japanese, then it should be in english. However, anything that has varying translations and is left in japanese in the translated manga, such as Getsuga Tensho, should be left in japanese--God (Pray)  02:53, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

thats also a good point.--Salubri (Talk)  02:55, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

If we can have the raws translated to the most accurate possible English translations, then I'm all for using them. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  03:03, November 2, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, accuracy in translation is important, but some English terms have been well established like Hell Butterfly, Artificial Soul and Chain of Fate. This far I agree with Godisme. However I do think we should decide on a policy about the titles of objects and stick to it. I can say from experience that having exceptions in the policy only leaves an opening for unending moving feuds, which forces us to lock the page. I must say I too feel uncomfortable with having some items named one way and some another, and so, as Salubri said, this is an English site and most users will search for the terms they picked up in English sources. If it's a voting thing I would vote for using the English terms which could be taken directly from officially subbed anime (since Ju Ni, apart from being problematic in use, is after all just another scanlation), or if there is none, supplied by our own A. Restling. On the other hand we can go with Romanji titles for all items and that's fine too, as long as we keep our redirects up to speed, it should work out OK. WD  Converse  22:51, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Nwang
This is stemming from something that Salubri left on my talk page. He wrote,"Also might want to get into talks about possibly replacing Nwang2011 as he is rarely on and for the position he has he needs to be on more often then not". I cannot say that I have not noticed his absence. Personally, I have never had any interaction with Nwang so I do not know if he is just in a rough spot right now or what. I do not know what anyone else would like to do concerning the situation but I do feel it should be discussed.--God (Pray)  00:21, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

He was very upfront with us when he accepted the position. I.e. he made it clear that he was starting college and so didn't know how he would manage college and Bleach Wiki. He is on a fair bit during term break but it is true that during term he isn't on that much. Many others are in the same boat. Lia started college too and unless you graduated while I wasn't looking, you should still be lingering round in University of Pittsburgh (or was it Pennsylvania... I can't remember). I myself am on far less due to a new job etc. The point is that at the time, Mr. N (aka Nwang) accepted the vice-captain position reluctantly because we didn't have options. We can reshuffle the committee now, promoting more active members etc. But the situation remains that pretty much all of use have gotten busy and aren't on as much as we used to be. Tinni  (Talk)  00:47, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, we are all pretty busy. I would like to give Nwang the benefit of the doubt. I think no decision should be made until we have his say on it. I had not really thought of bringing this up until Salubri contacted me about it today. I would like to see what others have to say on the matter. I only want what is best for the committee and the wiki so if others feel that it is fine to keep Nwang as the lieutenant of the committee, I will have no problem with it. If others feel he should be replaced, so be it. I am about as neutral as you can get on the issue, I just thought I would bring it up.--God (Pray)  01:11, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, due to my own recent inactivity, I cannot really offer too many opinions regarding Nwang's absence in fear of being hypocritical. All I can say is that he did warn us about this beforehand, and he was chosen regardless, particularly because of his past contributions. I'm against ejecting anybody from the committee, particularly because from a broad perspective, there's really not many candidates to replace anybody. It's difficult to find users that can dedicate themselves to the site, and it's even more difficult when a large portion of the staff has real life obligations to meet. I understand Salubri's view on the matter, but as it stands, there's really no way around it. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  01:38, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

I must say I have noticed this too. Nwang himself recently left me a message saying he does feel he's not contributing as much as he would like and also mentioned that schoolwork takes priority (which is, to say the least, more than understandable). Since, as Tinni mentioned, he did accept the job of VC a little reluctantly, I don't think he would be too offended if asked to step down. The more important question is, do we really have someone willing to step up to the plate and take over? Just to be clear, we're not talking withdrawal from the committee here, right? Just demotion from the VC post. WD  Converse  01:47, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

That was what I was thinking. I would in no way support removing him from the committee and I believe Salubri was talking purely about replacing him as VC. I am going to leave a message for him asking him to join this conversation because as I said, I want for him to have a say before anything is done.--God (Pray)  01:58, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Hi, everyone. First, I would like to thank Godisme for notifying me of this discussion and Salubri's message to him/her. Second, I do understand Salubri's thoughts on the matter (though as Tinni pointed out, everyone "has gotten busy and aren't on as much as we used to be.") If the committee feels that I should step down from the VC position, I most certainly will not mind. After all, from the beginning, I did voice my concerns on taking the position. I still feel that I am not the most suitable person to fill the position, given various reasons. Certainly, if conditions were different, I might have been less reluctant to accept the position. Now admittedly, I probably should have said something about me stepping down from the position when it became clear that I could not be as active as I wished. However, as Weedefinition pointed out: "do we really have someone willing to step up to the plate and take over?" Since other potential Fukutaicho candidates (TheDevilHand888, Morpheus) had passed on taking the position at the time, I wasn't quite sure if we did have anyone willing to take over and hence did not start a discussion. Well...no matter how things go, I will not mind. If I must step down from Fukutaicho, fine. If I must maintain the position for the time being (so that a more suitable member may later take the reins), fine. --- Mr. N 02:13, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

OK, guys. Now that we have Mr. N's take on this, I think it's time to hear if there are any volunteers for the job. I do not consider myself a candidate at this point. I do have someone in mind though, despite him being the latest addition to the committee, I think Godisme is the most logical choice for fukutaicho, since he is one of the most active committee members (probably second only to Tinni) and one of the more knowledgeable in both Bleach and the policies of the Wiki. I won't nominate him because I don't know how he feels about it, but if he nominates himself, he's got my vote for now. WD  Converse  02:40, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I was going to come in here and suggest Devilhand or Mohrpheus for the job, as I feel they are more qualified than myself. If others feel I am qualified enough to take the position, then I have no problem with it and would be fine with it but I feel that Mohrpheus or Devilhand are much more qualified than myself.--God (Pray)  04:20, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

I can't really speak about Nwang's abscence, since I myself haven't been as active as I used to recently, but is it really necessary to have another fukutaicho? As Tinni mentioned, all of us are busy with RL for various reasons and none of us are on as much as we used to, and the fact that the fukutaicho alone isn't on all the time doesn't affect the activity of the rest of the committee members. I think the committee is working fine as it is; yes we are more inactive recently, but sometimes RL takes priority and there's nothing we can do about it. If we do decide to rearrange the committee (which I consider unnecessary) I would propose Mohrpheus or DevilHand for fukutaicho since from the current members they have the most experience, so I would see them as the most qualified. That's my point of view on the matter. Lia Schiffer  (Talk)  07:24, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Mohrpheus and DevilHand didn't accept the position last time and I doubt much has changed between then and now. Let's face it, as of right now, <font color="#660066" face="Verdana">God has already been acting like a default fukutaicho. So might as well promote him and Mr. N will become an ordinary committee member for now and that'll be that. Tinni  (Talk)  08:06, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Tinni's proposal seems to make the most sense to me. If I remember correctly, the extra responsibility that the fukutaicho has is monitoring talk pages more often, and since I don't really do much on the talk pages (even though I really should), it wouldn't make sense to give it to me. However, Godisme is already doing a lot of stuff on the talk pages like closing discussions, so it only seems natural to give him the position. Not to mention that he is one of the most active users on this wiki. TheDevilHand888 (talk) 16:01, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Tinni as well. Despite being one of the "senior" members of the committee, I'd be lying like a madman if I said that I were more competent than Godisme. Quite the opposite actually - he's far more active, and he has shown in the past that he can deal with "incidents" rather well. I myself am just now trying to get more work done after my inactivity, so that puts me out of the window right there. I hate to throw the potato at him, but if he doesn't mind, then that's that I suppose. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  19:11, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Since the primary additional daily responsibility of fukutaicho appears to be monitoring and closing discussion topics on talk pages more often, Godisme appears capable taking over that. Tinni's proposal does seem to be most appropriate for this possible shift. Mind you, it does feel slightly odd that one member is delegated this responsibility of monitoring talk pages and closing discussions when all committee members have this same power. Also, I am just going to say to whoever is promoted to Fukutaicho (most likely Godisme) that the other responsibilities of Fukutaicho (as listed on the Policy & Standards Committee) shouldn't be too difficult since they don't appear to require as much vigilance as monitoring talk pages.--- Mr. N 23:16, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

...What are you lot talking about? ALL committee members have the right and responsibility to monitor and close discussion on the talk page. The additional responsibility of the fukutaicho, as is listed on our page, is,


 * Communication Between the P&S Committee as a whole and other groups (Associates/Users/Admin)
 * Recruitment for the Committee or any of the various associate groups.
 * Making sure the Committee is aware of any changes on the site.

But seriously, all of you need to review the powers section! Tinni  (Talk)  00:17, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I must have remembered things wrong since I thought that the last time there was a discussion on who should be fukutaicho it was said that the fukutaicho would handle talk pages more often, or something to that effect. Sorry again. Either way though those are still things that Godisme can handle and I still feel that he would be the most qualified for the position, that is assuming he wants it. TheDevilHand888 (talk) 02:00, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

Many good points have been brought up here. It is true, many of us are not active like we had been due to events in RL. I feel bad about having been the one that brought this all up and it ending with me taking the position. To make myself feel less guilty, I will simply say if Nwang is willing to step down, I would accept the position but if he would prefer to remain as fukutaicho then I believe he should be allowed to do so.--<font color="#660066" face="Verdana">God <font color="#660066" face="Verdana">(Pray)  03:25, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for my absence - technical problems - I think we already got Mr. N's agreement to step down in his first post: "If the committee feels that I should step down from the VC position, I most certainly will not mind. After all, from the beginning, I did voice my concerns on taking the position." I think there is a broad enough agreement among the committee members, besides Lia, that a change is in order. Nobody wants to hurt Nwang but everyone thinks a fukutaicho has to be more active than he's been. As for feeling guilty, I don't think you have a reason to. I was the one who dropped your name in and Tinni took it one step further (being taicho it's more or less her call). Besides, if I remember correctly, you weren't around yet when Nwang was promoted so you wouldn't have known about Mohrpheus and Devilhand foregoing the position at the time. WD  Converse  16:54, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

I have a simple solution to this problem. Joint-vice-captaincy. We promote Godisme but leave Mr. N as vice-captain as well. This covers both our bases very well. They can share the workload - such as is and co-ordinate with each other and between them, help keep a good eye on the site. This also covers the situation where Godisme becomes very busy but Mr. N might have time to pick-up the slack. However, this will lead to the elimination of the 8th seat - which is currently vacant anyway. Because we don't want to have more then 8 members. So the 7th seat will become vacant but we won't have a 8th seat but two fukotaicho. As such, when the 7th seat does become full, we'll have 8 members total. Does that sound fair to everyone? Tinni  (Talk)  17:10, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

That is fine with me<font color="#660066" face="Verdana">God <font color="#660066" face="Verdana">(Pray)  17:56, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good to me :D WD   Converse  18:27, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

Just to be clear this wouldnt be such a big deal if the organization didn't have this extra position. Using the point that real life is a lot to deal with is understandable. I go to school like a lot of users though I'm on everyday whether you know it or not. So it depends on how you deal with your time. Having said that when i proposed the idea of the committee I set it simple, everybody gets lieutenant statutes as well empowered to help users and promote the policies of the site. It's set up was that of regular real life committee with a chairman to oversee it's efforts. It was the decision of the committee to model it after the gotei 13. Thus this wouldn't be an issue if the lieutenant position didn't exist. With seniority determining whose running it while tinni is not able. Now my initial point in bringing this up is the amount of activity on the site I occasionally check seeing as there is a tendency to disappear for long periods or never come back hence why the clean house situation took place where we dropped committee and admin who weren't around. The biggest issue is activity. Now in this issue nwang has the position and he is also in charge of the fights summaries which I've basically had to fully take control cause he hasn't contributed to it in like forever. This is happening across the board on committee to the point that article improvement and so forth is practically non existent with only defined work being done by Yyp or a small few, yet everyones available to talk on blogs. My suggestion would be return to a actual committee organization and make some kind of plan for those who or extensively absent. As the idea of a joint lieutenant is not provided for and the likelihood of nwang being available to pick up slack on here isn't likely what proof do we have of that being a reasonable possibility any more than the idea of having two people in a position when one is not contributing.--<font color="00A86B" size="2px">Salubri <font color="00A86B" size="2px">(Talk)  18:47, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

Salubri brings up a good point - this issue is largely present because our organization is based on a Gotei 13 division. While it certainly has the flavor of Bleach, it is making Nwang's inactivity seem much more drastic than it actually is because he has a secondary leadership position. Honestly, the lieutenant's roles could easily be performed by the rest of the group as a whole, and some of them already are - a few of our members are already associate group members, we already nominate/elect new members as a whole, and being alerted of site changes seems to be well accomplished as a whole. Mohrpheus  (Talk)  19:05, February 6, 2011 (UTC)