Forum:Baragan Luisenbarn

I have some new info that might towards Barragan being a vasto lorde: -Vastos are stronger than the average captain, and he was stronger than Soifon, who is probably the average captain. -He has a humanoid resurrecion -He was the RULER of Las Noches. Seriously, that HAS to mean something. I doubt an adjuchas would rule hueco mundo, let alone las noches.

I don't think that he was really stronger than Soifon. It´s just that his special ability slowed her down. In term of reiatsu I doubt he would win over so easily. Just remember... When Soifon hitted Barragan with her point-blanked Bankai, he was really badly hurt. And you can´t know that he wasn't just an adjuchas. Who knows what Vasto Lordes personalities are... Maybe they don't want to rule as they are lazy as Starrk or something.

I dont see any real information that would make him such a thing being that we dont know enough about vasto lorde to spot one.Salubri 20:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Barragan: He was the size of a Human, the king of Hueco Mundo, incredibly powerfull and even looked like a human(skeleton). Note it took two captain level shinigami to beat him.His power is so great even he is not immune to it.Theres no real dfference bettwen his resurrection na dh what he looked like before Azien other than his crown and Gran Cida. Plus he was pretty much ruling hueco mundo(or part of it) before aizen came along, why would an aduchas ahve such as high standing and such an ability as that. Makes no sense plus the fact that the vizards have to team up with the shinigami(cept for Rose and Love who have not teamed up with any shinigami, but still its sill two captain level shinigami on one arrancar) to beat the espada.Maybe not haaribel seeing as she was pretty much screwed till WW came but I think Stark and Barragan are Vasto Lorde.Saimaroimaru 20:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

What i see is barragan dead. If the opinion of some people is that he was a vasto lorde (something impossible to confirm, seeing as having a position in hueco mundo dosent guarantee dominion over all, one would think if he was so powerful then the other vasto lorde would have a problem with him takin authority seeing that he would be a deterrence to their power, when logically if he wasnt one and lower then that level they would allow him his fantasy of being god-king as he is not a danger to them, even aizen isn't really a concern for them it seems) then the battle against them is gonna go by real quick cause in the end all it would take is a captain using bankai and/or possibly a vizard.Salubri 20:59, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Or he simply could've been a powerful Vasto Lorde that even most other Lordes wouldn't be interested in messing with him, especially with that huge army backing him up and all (stronger Vasto Lorde with army > weaker Vasto Lorde). Even Grimmjow's gang knew about Vasto Lorde so he couldn't simply have been delusional and not know about Lorde. Plus, Ulquiorra is a dead ringer for the one confirmed VL picture and he's only 4th. ZeroSD 00:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Your point? Vasto Lorde doesn't not mean win.And or? Sorry he had Soifon in the plam of his hands. He aged her attckes so that they explode beofre they reach him. Why would a aduchas has such a powerful ability. Note azien has at least twice the reistu of a cpatin, he count s as two captains plus hi sshikai abillity would give hima great advantage as wwe have seen the Barragan flash back.It took two captain level opponents to beat him an dthey him him on a guess.Barragan may have been the only hollow in his espada that was a threat to him because of his abillity, way to ignore everything else in my post.Saimaroimaru 00:24, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

A couple of points:

1. Barragan is arrogant and a braggart with a posse of bootlicking faccion. He is trying to intimidate his foes with his supposedly illustrious and powerful badass self. In a situation like this self-bestowed titles like 'king' or 'god' are probably nothing more than chestbeating on Barragan's part. You can't trust what he or his supporters say. And, like Salubri points out, Barragan and his entire Faccion are dead. He failed to back up his boasting.

2. The whole point of using the Breakdown Sphere is to unlock the wannabe Arrancar's power to previously inaccessible heights. The adjuchas class Menos have displayed a wide variety of power levels much like Shinigami lieutenants. Chances are if you unlock a near-captain class Adjuchas with the Breakdown Sphere you are going to get something damn scary. I don't see any contradiction with Barragan being 'merely' a Adjuchas and displaying the power level he had as an Arrancar.

Anyway...I think the current crop of Espada are all Adjuchas, including Barragan. Great Cthulhu 01:55, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Something scary, have you read the chap, hes always been e skeleton, i'll concede for now.Saimaroimaru 02:25, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm talking about power level, not appearance. Appearance doesn't really tell you much at all about a character's power. Great Cthulhu 02:28, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Barragan was taken out by a Captain, a lieutenant, and a lieutenant vizard working together, taking both a bankai ultimate attack to the face and breaking Hachi's vizard kido. That's pretty impressive. He failed to back up being an actual god, but he did rule a large kingdom in Hueco Mundo for an unknown period of time at the top, seeing no challenges and not considering that there would be stronger until Aizen came along, an odd position with Lorde's existence being common knowledge. Vasto Lorde are the most commanding of all hollows, Barragan had the highest position of any known hollow... fits pretty well there.

-I don't see any contradiction with Barragan being 'merely' a Adjuchas and displaying the power level he had as an Arrancar.-

There's no outright contradiction, but he fits the description of Lordes exactly, better than adjuchas. While there's an outside possibility of him being an adjuchas, there's a lot more hints of the top Espada being Lorde.

It just fits better ZeroSD 02:36, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

LOL...I see what you guys are talking about. No...I didn't get to the absolute latest manga until just now. Interesting story. Yes...that certainly seems like a Vasto Lorde to me. Adjuchas don't seem to wield that kind of political and military power. I suppose that means that Starrk and Harribel are probably lining up to be Vasto Lorde as well. Great Cthulhu 04:12, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not seeing how anyone can make the case of what fits the qualifications of a vasto lorde, seeing as you dont know what they can do or what they truly look like. Its wishful thinking but not able to back it up, plus in the end it doesnt matter all the candidates everyone wants to put forth as being certain vasto lorde (ulquiorra and barragan) are dead. How many more have to die without ever having been confirmed as such for people to stop making up stuff they cant possibly know or even prove.Salubri 04:20, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't making up stuff, I may have been wrong about the Vl but I used the mnaga as my reference.Its called interpretation, when it came to barragan and the vl I was wrong but Iidid not make stuff up, I inperted the material wrong.Saimaroimaru 05:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, it's anime only, but when Gin covers Vasto Lordes and their humanoid nature in the Arrancar segment, the camera pans over the Espada :) ZeroSD 07:31, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Well I think Barragan is an adjuchas and here is my reasoning: (WARNING: IMMINANT SPECULATION!) Barragan appears to have the most dangerous and powerful abilities of all the espada we have so far seen. Yet he is not the primera. Starrk is, and Starrk's powers so far appear to be relatively straightforward, cero's and lots of them. For Starrk to be of greater power than Barragan, especially when you take into account their different abilities, Starrk's reiatsu would have to be so much higher than Barragan's, therfore Starrk is significantly faster and stronger. If Barragan was a Vasto Lorde, then i highly doubt that another Vasto Lorde could be that much stronger, however if he were but an extremely powerful adjuchas, it makes sense that a Vasto Lorde, even one with fairly simple abilities, would be able to defeat him through sheer power. This leads me to the conclusion (speculative however i think that my reasoning is sound) that Starrk is the only Vasto Lorde in the current Espada (leaving out Yammi as there is too much unknown about him to make a judgement either way). BollyW 09:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Who says that Starrk's power has to be much greater than Barragan's? The difference between the 2 could be negligible for all we know. How did you reach the conclusion that Starrk is that much more powerful?

I'm for the theory that Barry's VL. I know we have nothing concrete, but hey, that's what the forum's for! Based on what evidence we have, he does fit most of the characteristics. Some may consider his arrogance too much of a departure from the norm, but that could stem from him being a 'king'. And he has shown the power; I believe Soifon probably couldn't have beaten him alone; we know her bankai wouldn't hit, and I'm not sure if that injury prevents her using Shunko. TomServo101 09:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Starrk's powers are neither subtle nor tricky, especially compared to those like Szyazel Appolo and Barragan. So, Barragan is the segunda, Starrk is the primera. From that we can deduce that Starrk is more powerful than Barragan. From what I have seen, and maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt that any Espada could best an Espada higher than them in a fair fight. Grimmjow couldn't beat Nnoitra, for example, just as I'm sure that Harribel couldn't beat Barragan. Therefore Starrk must be able to beat Barragan in a fair fight. Yet Barragan's abilities give him power greater then that of his spiritual power, i.e although his raw spiritual power is probably approximately that of Soifon's or any other captain's, his abilities mean that he is able to easily defeat them.

Therefore, for Starrk to defeat Barragan he would either have to have abilities that overpower or outmatch Barragan's, or he must be so powerful that even with Barragan's abilities, he still cannot match Starrk. From what we have seen of Starrk fighting, his abilities are not tricky, they are purely power based: i.e, a cero's power is based solely on the users spiritual power, whereas Barragan's Respira would require relatively less power however it's effects are much more dramatic to the amount of power expended. So Starrk must have a far greater spiritual energy then Barragan in order to be able to overpower him through sheer force.

As the self proclaimed God of Hueco Mundo, Barragan was clearly a being of great power. For there to exist such a power gap between him and Starrk, then Starrk would have to be a Vasto Lorde whilst Barragan was an extremely powerful Adjuchas. Note that I am agreeing that the gap in power is actually quite minor, due to Barragan's powers levelling the field somewhat and allowing him to punch above his weight as it were. So although Starrk possesses far greater raw powers, in a battle situation, he is only marginally more dangerous then Barragan.

You're right, there is some speculation in there but I think it's a fairly logical train of thought given what info we have. But you're right, this is what the forums are for, and i look forward to finding out more about Starrk so we can hopefully (fingers crossed) find out more about the mysterious Vasto Lorde. BollyW 11:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Barragan himself said that "He will never forgive Aizen for giving him power". Since the Vasto Lorde is the natural and last evolution of a menos class, how could Barragan be a Vasto Lorde if, even after been enhanced by the Hogyoku, he was beaten by a captain level vizard and a captain. If a VL has twice the power of a captain, he would be harder to beat him. I doubt that Barragan to be eventually a Vasto lorde. By the way we don't know anything about his ax, he used only his Respira and that is all, quite disappointing, #2 espada and only one power (dangerous one though). Adjuchas, espadas & Vasto Lorde, I thought about a possible evolution by following the explanations of Hitsugaya and some other hints through manga and anime episodes...

I wonder... what if Barragan was the last powerful and natural Arrancar not created by Aizen... I wonder, what if Aizen needs all the Espadas to die to allow him to complete the Vasto Lorde... What if Stark, Haribel, Yammy and Wonderweiss are artificial created via the Hogyoku...Baronofash 14:18, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

OK, we have to stop the debate that he isn't a VL just because he was beat by a captain. First off a vizard beat him, which could be beyond captain for all we know, but he only beat him because of his intelligence and an ability that he just happen to have. Barragan was completely beating soifon, and it was over for her until the vizard arrived, and he could have done the same to just about any captain. Honestly the only captain who may have stood a chance was the General (for just pure raw power) or the white hair sick guy (his sword lets him redirect attacks). Just because Hachi was smart then barragen, doesn't mean he was stronger. If he didn't think to transfer the hand in, he most likely would have been killed, seeing as how even his strongest of barriers weren't enough.

I agree. I'm not saying that he IS a vasto lorde, but that the recent chapters point to him being one. This is a THEORY, just so you guys know. And I doubt that an adjuchas would rule hueco mundo, because a vasto lorde could probably just come along and beat him at any time.

One thing that I always thought was an idea was that the top 4 are only adjuchas, but were the closest to reaching the level of Vasto Lorde. Yes, they had human-shaped forms, but that doesn't mean they were vasto lorde. It's a theory, but what if an adjuchas would become more and more human shape before reaching vasto lorde? If you notice the order and the state of their resurrecion, it looks like they became more and more human-shaped with each lower ranking. Ulquiorra had a human-shaed body, but also had wings,Harribel had a complete human-shape, Barragan was a human-shaped skeleton, and Starrk doesn't even look like an arrancar, except for his scope on his left eye. It's just a theory.--Moe1216 17:43, 29 August 2009 (UTC)